There's no hope

[Lou Girardin]

The Mother of one of the dead kids in the Pukekohe fatal this weekend was quoted as saying,"they were just having fun, they knew what they were in for when they got into the car". But the killer line was, "no-one was to blame, it was just an accident". This car was driven by a cretin who boasted to his parents that he regularly exceeded 200 km/h.
Stuff 'em, theyd deserve all they get.

[wkid_one]

In that instance I think the parents are also partially responsible....knowing and not acting is a shit load worse than not knowing at all -

[madboy]

Yes and no. Certainly their chances of being involved in a high speed crash resulting in serious injury or death were significantly higher than the general population. It's still bloody unfortunate that it happened. And I feel for the family left behind.

Yes, they probably were out for some fun. I've done it. I spent a great deal of my teenage years trying to get to, sitting at, or exceeding the limits of whatever the vehicle of choice was at the time - and I made no secret of it.

But I agree that the last line was a bit of a curly one - you drive hard you pay the price sooner or later. I'm only here today cos a little bit of skill and a lot of good luck was on my side.

But Lou, have you never done things in your teenage years that you look back on and think WTF was I thinking?

[madboy]

In that instance I think the parents are also partially responsible....knowing and not acting is a shit load worse than not knowing at all -And your suggestions for what the parents should/could have done?

I ask not for reasons sinister, but merely to make the point that parents usually have very little control over what their kids do - particularly at that age.

Hell, when my old man moaned about the mileage I was racking up on his car, I disconnected the speedo. When he stopped me driving one car while I was disqualified (it was rego to him), I bought another car and registered it in my g/fs name. Not saying I was the picture perfect teenager here - but what could the parents do?

[scumdog]

And your suggestions for what the parents should/could have done?

I ask not for reasons sinister, but merely to make the point that parents usually have very little control over what their kids do - particularly at that age.

Hell, when my old man moaned about the mileage I was racking up on his car, I disconnected the speedo. When he stopped me driving one car while I was disqualified (it was rego to him), I bought another car and registered it in my g/fs name. Not saying I was the picture perfect teenager here - but what could the parents do?

Do what my old man said he'd do, - "If I hear of you doing that again I'll take the sump plug out of your car and run the engine at full revs until it stops THEN I know you won't be doing it in THAT car"

It bloody worked I tell you, the thought of paying for a new engine and having no car until I got another engine kind of cooled my act a bit.

[madboy]

Do what my old man said he'd do, - "If I hear of you doing that again I'll take the sump plug out of your car and run the engine at full revs until it stops THEN I know you won't be doing it in THAT car"

It bloody worked I tell you, the thought of paying for a new engine and having no car until I got another engine kind of cooled my act a bit.My old man is an accountant - he'd have to pay a mechanic to do that, but that would cost money... :msn-wink:

[madboy]

No one to blame??? BULLSHIT! Blame the driver doing 200kph on a rural road at night.
Idiot. Those others didnt deserve to die, Bloody oath - you accidentally hit 120, maybe 130 long, straight downhill - but there's nothing accidental about 200!!

I disagree on your second comment. I've told the tales of exploits past, and people have been lining up for demonstration runs. So when they've said "I don't believe you can get it airborn over that blind crest at 220km/h" and I've said "Well, come for a ride and I'll show you"... and then it goes tits up, I make a split second error, dump it sideways into a ditch, roll it 63 times and end up submerged upside down in the creek... umm, how did the dead passenger not deserve that any more than the dead driver?

Of course - I don't know how willing the passengers in the fatal accident were, but I often found some passengers were just as gung-ho as (some more so than) the driver.

[Ixion]

..
Idiot. Those others didnt deserve to die, and i feel for the families and friends.
The article about the driver left me wondering why I bother doing this job.

Alas, no-one *deserved* to die. Your anger at the folly that led to these deaths is natural and commendable. But, it was folly, not wickedness. Youth is ever thus foolish, secure in the certainty of his own invulnerability. Many (most ?) of us on this site must, if we are honest, admit "There, but for the grace of God go I " :weep:

[madboy]

and does making a foolish decision (as a young person does a lot) mean they deserved to die? I think not.
The driver however... well thats a different storyWas the drivers decision not a foolish one as a young person does a lot?

Let's face it - the driver made a bad call and either his mates were into it or they weren't, either way, they most likely knew what they were up for, just weren't planning on the outcome. The real crime in this situation would have been if an innocent (read unrelated third party) had been involved in the accident, and we should all be bloody thankful for that.

[Ixion]

fol·ly

Pronunciation: 'fä-lE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural follies
Etymology: Middle English folie, from Old French, from fol fool
1 : lack of good sense or normal prudence and foresight
2 a : criminally or tragically foolish actions or conduct b obsolete : EVIL, WICKEDNESS; especially : lewd behavior
3 : a foolish act or idea
4 : an excessively costly or unprofitable undertaking

Obsolete I note. But, say stupidity if you wish instead. And they have paid a heavy enough price for it. As an old mate said - "Judge not, that ye be not judged".

[RDJ]

I agree he should not have done it.
But... we've all done things we should not have.
Many of us on bikes and cars.
We were not smart then, we (and others) were lucky.
Now we're older, and maybe wiser.
RIP the youngsters is all I want to say now, condemning his stupidity is both pointless and throwing the first stone.

[Lou Girardin]

Yes and no. Certainly their chances of being involved in a high speed crash resulting in serious injury or death were significantly higher than the general population. It's still bloody unfortunate that it happened. And I feel for the family left behind.

Yes, they probably were out for some fun. I've done it. I spent a great deal of my teenage years trying to get to, sitting at, or exceeding the limits of whatever the vehicle of choice was at the time - and I made no secret of it.

But I agree that the last line was a bit of a curly one - you drive hard you pay the price sooner or later. I'm only here today cos a little bit of skill and a lot of good luck was on my side.

But Lou, have you never done things in your teenage years that you look back on and think WTF was I thinking?

Sure, but my parents never condoned it. I got regular kicks in the arse.

BTW. No-one said that he was doing 200 when the accident happened, the reports were 130 -140. He was boasting of 200 plus. Which allowing for mental speedo error was about 180.

[outlawtorn]

My heart goes out to the family of the kids who died, it is a tragedy to die at such as young age.

Once again this begs the question "If bikers have to sit through a graduation system for bikes, then so should kids in cars".

Tragic man....

[MSTRS]

Those kids didn't learn their lesson. But will others now pay more attention to the conditions under which they speed & the physics involved? I think not.

[scumdog]

Those kids didn't learn their lesson. But will others now pay more attention to the conditions under which they speed & the physics involved? I think not.


Of course not, NOBODY on this site believes speed has any relationship to crashing/injury/death!! :whistle:

Speed is just a 'thing' made up by the govt. to explain away why people crash and get hurt, it doesn't actually exist - or have you not been following the various threads pertaining to speed?

[Paul in NZ]

Well, I just don't know about all this...

I've gone that fast on the bike and on occasion in cars but I'm somewhat conservative in the risk taking business and have thus far been lucky enough to get away with it...

Recognising that we were not there and certainly don't know much in the way of facts about this 'accident' other than a bunch of people are very dead, perhaps we ought to elevate the discussion to some root causes instead of blaming individuals.

As a species, we LOVE to go fast. A lot of mans technological advances have revolved around the increase of speed in transportation. It's only in recent years that this has got to the stage where we may be reaching the edge of our ability to control our lust for speed.

A generation ago, this was recognised and we saw the end of the muscle car era. Now, we have vehicles that are considerably more powerful but also handle a lot better etc etc. Usually the aggresive use of these vehicles is restricted by budget. ie, your average boy racer cannot afford the latest HSV V8 or EVO 9. But sadly, they can emulate some of their features relatively cheaply and can buy older versions as well...

Where is all this going?

Well, perhaps, we either need to collectively (as a society) say that we cannot afford these vehicles and limit their use and importation.. (or add a high performance tax or something) OR we need to realise that this sort of thing is a facet of human behaviour and bloody hard to do much about - thus stop wringing your hands and whining in the news paper when something goes wrong... As it will... Dunno what is worse really..

We glorify performance in the media, yet we demonise those that fall for the dream (and admittedly get it wrong).

Perhaps we need to look at ourselves a little here. Is this a sensless road accident or another victim of the sawn off shotgun of modern marketing?

Complicated thing life....

Paul N

[Ixion]

Of course not, NOBODY on this site believes speed has any relationship to crashing/injury/death!! :whistle:

Speed is just a 'thing' made up by the govt. to explain away why people crash and get hurt, it doesn't actually exist - or have you not been following the various threads pertaining to speed?

Logically therefore you would support the mandatory fitment of speed limiters that prevented any vehicle exceeding 100kph ? And would fit one to your own bike ?

How many others on this site would support such a rule ?

Completely logical if you accept that it all the demon speed that's to blame

[vifferman]

BTW. No-one said that he was doing 200 when the accident happened, the reports were 130 -140. He was boasting of 200 plus. Which allowing for mental speedo error was about 180.
Who knows how fast the guy was going, or what he was doing. But I agree with you that what the mother of the other boy had said was stupid. "Good clean fun", my arse. There's little clean about bodies and car parts strewn all over the countryside...

BTW - your letter to the editor in The Harold this morning was well-written, Lou. :niceone:

[Motu]

Don't want to start another thread - 'there's no hope' sounds good for this one.

We didn't want to get involved in the holiday traffic so left to go south from Auckland mid afternoon friday...but the traffic was still heavy and we stopped at Pokeno.The first thing I noticed was all the cars around me were full of Asians (back off racial police! One of my biggest bits of safety kit is observation of my surroundings,who and what is on the road around me.I have noticed that on the open road we see very few ''ethnic'' drivers - Pacific Islanders,Asians,Middles East and Indian Subcontinent,they are city drivers and seldon venture onto the open road) Just interesting I thought.

But the guy in front of me was a white boy,and he was in a spot of bother - he would stall the car,in panic try and start it up again...but he didn't know how to do that even...out of gear,wobble the lever,play around with the key,he didn't have a bloody clue.His girl friend gave him a hug,but it didn't help...he just kept stalling - HE COULDN"T FUCKING DRIVE!!!!! in the end after the cars were half a km in front of him I drove around the left side of him,so did everyone else.

Scary...he was out there,totaly out of his depth in a car,in holiday traffic....I'm glad I met him at walking pace....

I turned off at Mercer,went over the bridge and came down to Rangariri from the otherside.

[Motu]

My heart goes out to the family of the kids who died, it is a tragedy to die at such as young age.

Once again this begs the question "If bikers have to sit through a graduation system for bikes, then so should kids in cars".

Tragic man....

They were only in a Honda Civic...we can't get Morris Minor's anymore - what small car limit do you suggsest?...bring back the Lada?

[MikeL]

I too found the mother's comments surprising and I would expect that in time she will come to view these tragic events differently. However it is pointless and insensitive to vilify her for comments which reflect a desperate attempt to come to terms with a sudden, shocking and meaningless loss of lives.
There are deeper issues here which require both dispassionate and compassionate discussion...

[inlinefour]

People just do not care about anyone else these days. Society becomes more self centered and take the attitude "F" anyone else. With parents with this sort of shyte arttitude it is no wonder that the next generation are wiping themselves, and sadly others out. Sad bit is though for the next generation, they have really no hope and unless they rebel against these attitudes then they are screwed (and so are the rest of us!).

[Lucyloo]

"no-one was to blame, it was just an accident".

It is an absolute tragedy that lives were lost, but if speed was involved then the driver was most certainly to blame as he had contol of the car!

In my opinion, there are very few if any "accidents". Most vehicle "crashes" are caused by speed, drving beyond ones abilities, being distracted or just plain stupidity.

Unfortunately as many of us probably remember being young means that we think we are invincible. Sadly in this instance the deceased were not!

[outlawtorn]

They were only in a Honda Civic...we can't get Morris Minor's anymore - what small car limit do you suggsest?...bring back the Lada?

I reckon, just like bikes have, we have the following scenario:

Age Engine Modifications
16-18 1200cc (Max) None
19-21 1400cc (Max) None
21-25 1600cc + None
25+ 1600cc + Yes (Including turbo and all that kind of stuff)

Or something like the above, I don't know, it's just an idea, but I can't stand seeing or hearing the young kids are dead, no parent should ever bury their child.

Comments? Suggestions? Hate Mail? Insults?

[vifferman]

I reckon, just like bikes have, we have the following scenario:

Age Engine Modifications
16-18 1200cc (Max) None
19-21 1400cc (Max) None
21-25 1600cc + None
25+ 1600cc + Yes (Including turbo and all that kind of stuff)

That's kinda already done (albeit indirectly) through the insurance premiums.

It is an absolute tragedy that lives were lost, but if speed was involved then the driver was most certainly to blame as he had contol of the car!
Or, in fact, he was to blame because he wasn't driving in such a manner as to have full control of the car.

[James Deuce]

I reckon, just like bikes have, we have the following scenario:

Age Engine Modifications
16-18 1200cc (Max) None
19-21 1400cc (Max) None
21-25 1600cc + None
25+ 1600cc + Yes (Including turbo and all that kind of stuff)

Or something like the above, I don't know, it's just an idea, but I can't stand seeing or hearing the young kids are dead, no parent should ever bury their child.

Comments? Suggestions? Hate Mail? Insults?I'd love to see something like that. The problem with your suggestion is that it is simple, clear cut, simple to administer, a therefore unworkable.

Please create something more confusing.

1/5

[outlawtorn]

:confused: we could always confuse it by introducing courses to every level which permits drivers to upgrade to the next level before their birthday, but if they were born before June 5th then they can upgrade automatically but only if their parents consent to a bigger car without modifications except where permitting they can put in a lowered suspension and those really cheesy rims which keep on spinning once the car has stopped OR they can upgfrade to the next license level if there sound system is louder than the actual car itself.....

[Lucyloo]

Or, in fact, he was to blame because he wasn't driving in such a manner as to have full control of the car.

Thank you....you said that much better than I did!

[James Deuce]

:confused: we could always confuse it by introducing courses to every level which permits drivers to upgrade to the next level before their birthday, but if they were born before June 5th then they can upgrade automatically but only if their parents consent to a bigger car without modifications except where permitting they can put in a lowered suspension and those really cheesy rims which keep on spinning once the car has stopped OR they can upgfrade to the next license level if there sound system is louder than the actual car itself.....
Better. 3/5 as you ignored the Cultural Safety Component

[outlawtorn]

Better. 3/5 as you ignored the Cultural Safety Component
Dammit!

I reckon to get this right we'll have to form a committee to roundtable the idea, then it must get approved, then we must form another committee to put the idea into action, thereafter sub-committee's will be formed to work on each aspect of the rules, then a comittee shall be formed to correspond between each sub-committee and make sure that they are all doing their job fairly and without any unjust objections. I think......

[James Deuce]

Dammit!

I reckon to get this right we'll have to form a committee to roundtable the idea, then it must get approved, then we must form another committee to put the idea into action, thereafter sub-committee's will be formed to work on each aspect of the rules, then a comittee shall be formed to correspond between each sub-committee and make sure that they are all doing their job fairly and without any unjust objections. I think......

Excellent. I'll start applying for funding...

[flyin]

thats sounds like the go jim, the most important thing now is to secure an approporiate office to accomodate these committies and sub-committies, now we need an HR comitte so no-one is treated unjustly, oh and lets get onto sorting an I.T. team so our committies can streamline their email and communicate efficiantly with other committies.......

[flyin]

sounds like a really good system though. i have applied it to myself (not totaly because i wanted...) my first cage was an 1100 escort, skiny tyres meant enuff power to get me sideways at 23km.....hmmmm then onto corolla's yeah go the mighty 1300 4k, done huge kms in it and a few driving courses, (manfield open days and such) and still i know the car has more in than my ability(cos my m8 can beat my times in it...) rebuilt it all myself and proceeded to blow it up myself... put it in the garage and got a bike for transport.......... hmmm
havn't touched it since...... but i have been learning all i can bout riding a 250! again ple ty of power to get me to the speedlimit while not being ridicuilous......gunna wait till i have my full b4 i upgrade too!! oh if only everyone was taught well.
anyways i'm gunna stick with learning all i can whatever i am riding/driving at the time, and keep keeping myself alive!!

[James Deuce]

thats sounds like the go jim, the most important thing now is to secure an approporiate office to accomodate these committies and sub-committies, now we need an HR comitte so no-one is treated unjustly, oh and lets get onto sorting an I.T. team so our committies can streamline their email and communicate efficiantly with other committies.......
I hereby designate you Chief Operations Officer (refferred to subsequently as COO) of the Parliamentary Sub Committee for the investigation of the effects of restricting access to vehicles for "learner" (Provisional and Restricted License holders) drivers in a BiCultural Aotearoa.

[Sniper]

Better them than me

[jrandom]

i have been learning all i can bout riding a 250! again ple ty of power to get me to the speedlimit while not being ridicuilous......gunna wait till i have my full b4 i upgrade too!!

Good man.

You punt that ZZR250 like a pro, I'm sure Melon's ego is a bit dented after the weekend. ;)

You'll be a force to be reckoned with once you get on a Proper Bike, and it's great to see you taking your time and being sensible about it.

[Wolf]

I reckon, just like bikes have, we have the following scenario:

Age Engine Modifications
16-18 1200cc (Max) None
19-21 1400cc (Max) None
21-25 1600cc + None
25+ 1600cc + Yes (Including turbo and all that kind of stuff)

Or something like the above, I don't know, it's just an idea, but I can't stand seeing or hearing the young kids are dead, no parent should ever bury their child.

Comments? Suggestions? Hate Mail? Insults?
Not quite like bikes, I note.

More bike-like would be to deem all 1200s to be "safe" enough for Learners and Restricted Licences including fully raced ones (to better equate to the disparity between 250cc commuters and RGV250s) and then they can drive anything once they get their full licence.

In all seriousness, I do believe cars should have a graded system similar to what bikes have.

There are a lot of people out there blatting around a lot faster than they can safely handle - in some cases, that safe level is below the actual legal speed limit. Forcing cagers to drive less powerful cars until they have had time to practice safe driving techniques would be a good idea.

Even if the system is:

Learners and Restricted - unmodified 1200cc (Max)
Full - No restrictions

it would still be an improvement over the current system. Let them learn in something that is less likely to rocket them past what their level of experience can handle - "speed", per se, might not be an absolute killer but travelling way faster than you can safely go is an extremely risky proposition.

[Ixion]

Not quite like bikes, I note.

More bike-like would be to deem all 1200s to be "safe" enough for Learners and Restricted Licences including fully raced ones (to better equate to the disparity between 250cc commuters and RGV250s) and then they can drive anything once they get their full licence.


The poroblem with this is that so many youngsters learn to drive (ie practice, once they have their learners) in the "family car". Even if they take driving school lessons they still do "extra time" in the family vehicle

A lot of the time dad's or Mum's car wouldn't qualify as a learner grade.

So they would be limited to "Driving school only" time, which is undesireable. There are advantages to learners being able to put in a lot of time practicing (under supervision), more time than most could afford at a driving school.

With bikes it's different because you can assume that a learner biker will need to buy his/her own bike - not so with cars.

And even a "Mum's car" nowadays can probably hit 160+ kph.

Realistically anyway, does the graduated system on bikes serve any purpose ? Whats the top speed of a 250cc sports bike? Over 200kph I think.

So the bike learner can still legally go out on a 200+ kph machine. (Only supposed to do 70 on a L plate , but if they're going to speed anyway that's pretty irrelevant)

[Motu]

I hereby designate you Chief Operations Officer (refferred to subsequently as COO) of the Parliamentary Sub Committee for the investigation of the effects of restricting access to vehicles for "learner" (Provisional and Restricted License holders) drivers in a BiCultural Aotearoa.

Can I be in charge of motor vehicle importation? There are currently very few sub 1000cc cars for learners - I propose that I alone have the import licence for sub 1000cc micro cars,I will bring in heaps of Nissan March's,Daihatsu Mira's,Honda Cities and Toyota Starlets,maybe I'll buy a big ship of my own.This will be a good move,as these things are so slow,like I doubt if they can go much faster than 160kph,safe enough for any teenager - and anyway,these things are so flimsy they will only kill themselves,and their occupants in a crash.

I will aslo set up another business supplying 1600,1800 and 2000cc engines as a retofit,body kits and turbos.Let's do it!!!

[James Deuce]

Can I be in charge of motor vehicle importation? There are currently very few sub 1000cc cars for learners - I propose that I alone have the import licence for sub 1000cc micro cars,I will bring in heaps of Nissan March's,Daihatsu Mira's,Honda Cities and Toyota Starlets,maybe I'll buy a big ship of my own.This will be a good move,as these things are so slow,like I doubt if they can go much faster than 160kph,safe enough for any teenager - and anyway,these things are so flimsy they will only kill themselves,and their occupants in a crash.

I will aslo set up another business supplying 1600,1800 and 2000cc engines as a retofit,body kits and turbos.Let's do it!!!
Done!

Report to Te Puni Kokiri for Cultural Re-Education tomorrow at 9am please.

[scumdog]

Logically therefore you would support the mandatory fitment of speed limiters that prevented any vehicle exceeding 100kph ? And would fit one to your own bike ?

How many others on this site would support such a rule ?

Completely logical if you accept that it all the demon speed that's to blame

Hah! Please feel free to remove the hook and bait from your mouth....... :shifty:

[Ixion]

...
But the guy in front of me was a white boy,and he was in a spot of bother - he would stall the car,in panic try and start it up again...but he didn't know how to do that even...out of gear,wobble the lever,play around with the key,he didn't have a bloody clue.His girl friend gave him a hug,but it didn't help...he just kept stalling - HE COULDN"T FUCKING DRIVE!!!!! ...

In charity, maybe he was having engine probs. Especially if the traffic was so heavy. I've had cars that would start run OK until they got some load on them, then faaaaaaaaaaadddddddddde and die. Restart, rev up, OK, engage clutch, splutter and die. Restart, rinse lather repeat.

Can be due to all sorts of things, which you will know far more of than I

Could have made anyone pretty flustered if they had that sort of problem in heavy traffic

[Motu]

In charity, maybe he was having engine probs. Especially if the traffic was so heavy. I've had cars that would start run OK until they got some load on them, then faaaaaaaaaaadddddddddde and die. Restart, rev up, OK, engage clutch, splutter and die. Restart, rinse lather repeat.

Can be due to all sorts of things, which you will know far more of than I

Could have made anyone pretty flustered if they had that sort of problem in heavy traffic

No,I was directly behind him,looks like he still had the handbrake on most of the time,but was so flustered when he did let the brake off he still stalled it...some gear grinding too.The motor was running fine - I think he just had all the sequences wrong...foot on clutch,put into gear,bring up revs...no that's too much..SHIT! stalled..oh,handbrake...let's try it again.

Actualy it's not a bad way to learn really - out on the open road,get the steering,throttle and brake control sorted,then move onto slow speed clutch,steering and brake control...but not in holiday traffic.(um,it's how I taught myself to ride and drive.I got pushed down the road on my Bantam and didn't stop till I ran out of gas,lucky it didn't have much in it,those things could run for a week on a tank full)

[flyin]

Done!

Report to Te Puni Kokiri for Cultural Re-Education tomorrow at 9am please.

carefull m8 we have TPK staff here...............

[Sniper]

carefull m8 we have TPK staff here...............

TPK??? Whats that?

[James Deuce]

http://www.tpk.govt.nz/

[Hitcher]

Kia ora, bro...

[Ixion]

...um,it's how I taught myself to ride and drive.I got pushed down the road on my Bantam and didn't stop till I ran out of gas,lucky it didn't have much in it,those things could run for a week on a tank full)

:roars with laughter:. EXACTLY how I learnt to ride my first bike, a bantam. Pushed it to the top of the hill outside our house, got on and away down the hill. My mate running along side yelling "change gear change gear - blip the throttle blip the throttle - shit slow down" . Bugger about the bend . Luckily the house on the outside of the bend didn't have a front fence, just straight up the kerb and off on the grass.

Lesson #2. How to stop.

Not to worry even if you did have a full tank, pretty certain to stop before long with a plug whisker

(Wonder how many of the peeps here know what a plug whisker is ? Let alone have ever had one )

[Lou Girardin]

My heart goes out to the family of the kids who died, it is a tragedy to die at such as young age.

Once again this begs the question "If bikers have to sit through a graduation system for bikes, then so should kids in cars".

Tragic man....

Harry Duynhoven was asked this on TV this morning. Apparently it's too hard. The little darlings may have to use Mummy and Daddy's car so power/capacity restrictions are too onerous.

He did say they're looking at compulsory 3rd party insurance which will partly solve the problem. IF the Police enforce it.

[NC]

The driver had admitted on national radio that he drives while disqualified, he got given a ticket for 160kms I think it was.

Just sick.

[jrandom]

And even a "Mum's car" nowadays can probably hit 160+ kph.

My theoretical calculations carried out while sitting motionless beside a parked ambulance on the shoulder of a closed private road indicate that Mrs Random's '95 Camry will pull an indicated 200. More modern and more expensive Japanese toddlermobiles will undoubtedly get there faster than it does, too.


Whats the top speed of a 250cc sports bike? Over 200kph I think.

Yes, I believe an RS250 will reach 230-ish. Your stock spotty-teenager-next-door's CBR250RR will pull to within a whisker of 200 if the speedo restrictor is removed.


So the bike learner can still legally go out on a 200+ kph machine.

Indeed. The idea behind the UK's 125cc->33bhp->unrestricted graduated system is superior. Of course, DAS has made it a bit pointless.

[Lilmsrocker]

Very interesting program in the United States Court sytem......for people who get arrested for drunk driving.......for kids who violate driving and speeding laws.....and I believe for people arrested on Domestic Violence too........is that as a part of their community service hours that they have to do they have to do an IMPACT AWARENESS class and put in so many hours towards their community service at the CITY MORGUE!........WOW!.....If that does not WAKE a PERSON the hell up..I dunno what will?.........And the Program works SWEET......As it was intended to.....Most who go through it..... DO NOT REPEAT THEIR OFFENCE.

[jrandom]

Very interesting program in the United States Court sytem......for people who get arrested for drunk driving.......for kids who violate driving and speeding laws.....and I believe for people arrested on Domestic Violence too........is that as a part of their community service hours that they have to do they have to do an IMPACT AWARENESS class and put in so many hours towards their community service at the CITY MORGUE!........WOW!.....If that does not WAKE a PERSON the hell up..I dunno what will?.........And the Program works SWEET......As it was intended to.....Most who go through it..... DO NOT REPEAT THEIR OFFENCE.

I like that idea. My father-in-law has been cautious and uneasy about riding ever since he worked a stint at a funeral parlour many years back and saw a couple of dead bikers come through. It would be the perfect tonic for your average moronic teenage rider.

On another note, I'm wondering whether we should forcibly change your forum handle to 'ellipsisgirl'.

[vifferman]

On another note, I'm wondering whether we should forcibly change your forum handle to 'ellipsisgirl'.
Yeah, the posts are rather dotty. (I was going to go '.....' there, as is my wont, but I'm feeling somewhat disinclined to do so now. I shall endeavour to keep my elliptical posts minimised.)

[Lou Girardin]

The poroblem with this is that so many youngsters learn to drive (ie practice, once they have their learners) in the "family car". Even if they take driving school lessons they still do "extra time" in the family vehicle

So they would be limited to "Driving school only" time, which is undesireable. There are advantages to learners being able to put in a lot of time practicing (under supervision), more time than most could afford at a driving school.

With bikes it's different because you can assume that a learner biker will need to buy his/her own bike - not so with cars.

And even a "Mum's car" nowadays can probably hit 160+ kph.

Realistically anyway, does the graduated system on bikes serve any purpose ? Whats the top speed of a 250cc sports bike? Over 200kph I think.

So the bike learner can still legally go out on a 200+ kph machine. (Only supposed to do 70 on a L plate , but if they're going to speed anyway that's pretty irrelevant)

Mum and Dad teachers are part of our problem, passing on poor skills.
The problem is not so much with a cars top speed, but with how rapidly it gets there.
The graduated licence system has saved a great many lives, but 250 power outputs are far ahead of what the MOT beaurocrats dreamt of when they initiated the scheme. Power limits or power/weight limits are more sensible.

[Hitcher]

as is my wont
Your wont? And here's me thinking you were a fant of knowledge and wisdom...

[vifferman]

Your wont? And here's me thinking you were a fant of knowledge and wisdom...
Yeah, my wont.

wont http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Dwont) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (wônt, whttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifnt, whttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ubreve.gifnt)
adj.

Accustomed or used: “The poor man is wont to complain that this is a cold world” (Henry David Thoreau).
Likely: <CITE>chaotic as holidays are wont to be.</CITE>
n.


<DL><DD>Customary practice; usage. See Synonyms at habit (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=habit).</DD></DL>

v. wont, or wont·ed wont·ing, wonts
v. tr.


<DL><DD>To make accustomed to.</DD></DL>

v. intr.


<DL><DD>To be in the habit of doing something.</DD></DL>




<HR align=left width="25%">[Middle English, past participle of<TT> wonen</TT>, to be used to, dwell. See won<SUP>1</SUP>.]

=========================
But in any case, I'm neither knowledgeable nor wise; I just make shit up.

[Hitcher]

Apogolies. I think the shock of seeing the words "your wont" devoid of apostrophes threw me completely.

[Sniper]

Apogolies. I think the shock of seeing the words "your wont" devoid of apostrophes threw me completely.

As does any misspelt word that should be correct for the reasons of upholding grammer correctness.

[vifferman]

As does any misspelt word that should be correct for the reasons of upholding grammer correctness.
I'm not touching that one.
See if one of the voices in your wife's head can help you with grammatical and lexical correctitudinality.

[Hitcher]

As does any misspelt word that should be correct for the reasons of upholding grammer correctness.
Your write of coarse. Or grammar correctness...

[outlawtorn]

Your write of coarse. Or grammar correctness...
that'll learn you

[James Deuce]

that'll learn you
No it wont.

[Ixion]

Your write of coarse. Or grammar correctness...

Or grammatical correctness

[Gen]

People just do not care about anyone else these days. Society becomes more self centered and take the attitude "F" anyone else. With parents with this sort of shyte arttitude it is no wonder that the next generation are wiping themselves, and sadly others out. Sad bit is though for the next generation, they have really no hope and unless they rebel against these attitudes then they are screwed (and so are the rest of us!).

I agree.I have been having a discussion along these lines elsewhere.
Too many parents just don't care, and have a lax attitude to their children.
It's just sad that those idiotic teenagers had to go and kill themselves.
I guess one good thing that came out of this tragedy (?) was that they did not kill anyone else.
As a teenager, I sped but I never went ANYWHERE near those kinds of speeds.
I knew better, I knew I could not handle it.
Unfortunately teenagers need to do it themselves to learn...in this case, it was too late :/

[Skyryder]

If you are going to play russian roulette on the road sooner or later a live one is going to come out of the barrel. Two things guys, if you cross the line know when it's time to stop, and if you don't want to get caught don't do it.

Skyryder

[spudchucka]

Very interesting program in the United States Court sytem......for people who get arrested for drunk driving.......for kids who violate driving and speeding laws.....and I believe for people arrested on Domestic Violence too........is that as a part of their community service hours that they have to do they have to do an IMPACT AWARENESS class and put in so many hours towards their community service at the CITY MORGUE!........WOW!.....If that does not WAKE a PERSON the hell up..I dunno what will?.........And the Program works SWEET......As it was intended to.....Most who go through it..... DO NOT REPEAT THEIR OFFENCE.
The morgue is a very sobering place and there is no better location to learn about the realities of human frailty.

I saw a doco a while ago that looked at some troubled teens going through such a program in the US and it certainly did have a powerfull impact on their attitudes.

[SPman]

Hmmm...thinks...Mk1 Zephyr diced up around power pole..bodies strewn around the road, a bystander trying to stop bleeding by sticking a rag down a young guys throat..4 dead.....Ford V8 rolls on Lake road..young guys thrown out, 1 decapitated....Mk 4 Zephyr V8 gets airborne over the crest of Newton Rd/ K road and bursts asunder, spilling and killing its load........
So...over the last 40 yrs....has anything basically changed!!!
The cars are faster?...but also better built so you have to go a bit faster to achieve the same level of carnage.
Young guys are still full of testosterone...7 ft tall and bulletproof. They all think they are ace drivers - until it turns to shit.
There are more boy racers on the road than there used to be?...well, theres twice as many people and cars are cheaper.
Society and authorities seem more apalled these days....more efficient instant mass communication?
Young men are going to be young men....and are going to kill themselves from time to time..in acts of bravado which are actually sheer stupidity....but they seldom see it as that...until its all too late!
A morgue session could well help introducing a bit of sense to some, but not necesarily all of the more reckless.
So, after each incident, which is blazoned across the media, the thumpings of righteous anger and indignation are heard wide across the land.....for about a week - then its on to something else.
Young guys have been killing themselves across the millenia, by whatever means happens to be popular and of the moment - the last century, its been mainly automobiles of one sort or another. Nothing we can do will stop it. People who kill themselves in car crashes, dont have kids to grow up and do the same. So I dont worry about it - when it happens to people I know, its a shock, but, hey, among life there is death! Always has been, always will.
I also support doing away with fences around swimming pools, but, thats another rant.
So, will anything stop these guys (mainly guys)
Why...I think not.

[FROSTY]

isnt this just a touch hypocritical (sp) ??
A lot of the guys here are riding bikes at speeds well in excess of 200
The guy driving was speeding --he made a mistake -but a bunch of families are morning their dead kids right now.
coulda been any one of us

[Jackrat]

isnt this just a touch hypocritical (sp) ??
A lot of the guys here are riding bikes at speeds well in excess of 200
The guy driving was speeding --he made a mistake -but a bunch of families are morning their dead kids right now.
coulda been any one of us

A lot of them are very good at avoiding that rather obvious point.
Bikers that live in glass houses huh!! :wacko:

[NordieBoy]

A lot of them are very good at avoiding that rather obvious point.
Bikers that live in glass houses huh!! :wacko:

My place is 50 year old rimu and stucco.
Oh and my bike'll only hit 155kph bouncing off the limiter in top :cool:

[FROSTY]

A lot of them are very good at avoiding that rather obvious point.
Bikers that live in glass houses huh!! :wacko:
Hey i'm as guilty as the next guy. -Ohh hang on --no I NEVER speed and I always obey the road rules. Honest nodman
for those that can't tell--this is a pisstake

[scumdog]

My place is 50 year old rimu and stucco.
Oh and my bike'll only hit 155kph bouncing off the limiter in top :cool:

In a built up area that speed will do the trick...

[Indoo]

isnt this just a touch hypocritical (sp) ??
A lot of the guys here are riding bikes at speeds well in excess of 200

Yep but of course it would never happen to them, they would never make a mistake at 120+kmh and crash into an innocent driver...


The guy driving was speeding --he made a mistake -but a bunch of families are morning their dead kids right now.
coulda been any one of us

If it was a one off you could say that, but this guy drove like an idiot all the time and was just a fatality waiting to happen, its unfortunate his parents did nothing to stop him, didn't they even help him buy his car?

At the end of the day everyone should be fking thankful that it wasn't them meeting this guy after he failed to take a corner. Its just a shame he took other people with him.

[madboy]

SPMan couldn't be more right, and Frosty. We're all bloody hypocrites - you don't buy a bike cos you like the wind in your hair sitting dead on 100km/h on the long straight stretches of road, and you religiously obey the suggested cornering speeds... oh come on!!

As for limiting the cars/horsepower/power to weight bla bla bla... that will prevent some deaths from the point of view that when (and I do mean WHEN) the youngsters crash it may possibly be at a lower speed, but that will be a small percentage. From my experience, the three decent accidents I've had outside of legitimate racing all involved slow underpowered cars. Once I stuck my MX-5 (1.6litre, 88kw, governor at 180k) into a tree at about 30km/h while practising drifting... another time I stuck the MX-5 off the side of a tight twisty road and rolled it a few times - speed approx 80km/h, speed limit 100km/h, suggested cornering speed 15km/h... and some years before I rolled Mum's Civic (1.5l, 66kw, 178km/h indicated top speed) up on it's side after spinning into a bank - speed approx 110km/h in a 70 zone, wet road, brain fade (just like the other three).

I don't see how horsepower had anything to do with these experiences, yet excessive speed was involved in two, and complete farking brain fade was the precursor to all three.

[Krusti]

OK then.....when say my son goes on a KB ride and sticks to the tail of some one travelling at a rather quick pace, crashes and kills himself and possibly some one else, will it be my fault as a parent for allowing him to go. His for being young and stupid or the guys he was following?

Don't worry I have this battle going on in my mind every time we ride together. Shall we now and then do a quick run on a stretch of road which I feel is relatively safe so he has an outlet under my control, leave him to discover his limits on his own or when with his mates or be a fist welding over protective parent.

I have never been and will never be a Nana rider....it's in my genes. My son has both his mothers and my genes. He WILL want to go fast at times.

I have come to the conclusion that it is a bit like teenagers drinking. I can ban it....will probably happen anyway when I'm not looking.

I can drink like a fish making a fool of myself and set a bad example.

Or allow them to have the odd drink when I am around and speak openly about consequences etc.

It is not till you are in this position as a parent that you realise there are no black and white rules. What to do?

I constantly live in fear of the day something happens and I know no matter what that I in some way will be to blame. The joys of parenting.

I'm not preaching to any one here at all. I'm just sitting here in front of a key board typing out load.

[FROSTY]

Krusty --I kinda know what ya mean. baby bikie had a decent crash on his quad recently.--Hes got tyre marks on his side as it rode over him.
The protective parent in me wanted to take the bike offa him.

[Krusti]

I have spent many a night sleeping on the floor next to juniors bed at Waikato Hosp during the Motorcross years thinking " when shall I say enough is enough?"

Luckily for his health and my wallet he made the call himself.

Wait till you see bb banked over scraping his pegs on the road. Then ya heart starts missing the odd beat!

[gav]

Krusti, track day :niceone:
Apparently this kid was on The Rock radio station, about a month ago. One of his mates suggested they ring him up and have him on about his driving while disqualified etc. Pretty sad but hey, shit happens.......
http://www.speedzilla.com/images/Geronimo-Large.jpg

[Krusti]

I don't totally agree with the shirt but certainly made me smile.

Track Day......We are both too worried about scratching our babies :msn-wink: :baby: :baby:

Hope to soon tho :niceone:

[justsomeguy]

Agree with the fact that we are all hypocrites ...... there have been several rides where $2.00 was exceeded. Not by me ofcourse. Cos 1. I can't really ride and 2. My bike's fecking slow....

..but it's a lot of fun passing a trailer towing ute doing 70ks at close to 3 times that speed (with perfect weather, visibility and roads)

And since a lot of us can't save up to go on a track that's the route we choose.

Until..........:thud:

[Lou Girardin]

I have and always will speed and do silly things, but I'm damn sure that 2 things have saved my butt many times; one is that I made my mistakes in cars that would be considered mobility scooters these days. Low speeds = small hits.
the second is that, whatever their other faults, the MOT had brilliant rider/driver training which still comes to the fore in risky situations.
It would be interesting to know how many ex-MOT guys have died in crashes, I suspect not many.

[Krusti]

the second is that, whatever their other faults, the MOT had brilliant rider/driver training which still comes to the fore in risky situations.
It would be interesting to know how many ex-MOT guys have died in crashes, I suspect not many.

Very true :niceone:

[vifferman]

It would be interesting to know how many ex-MOT guys have died in crashes, I suspect not many.
There must be at least some.

I used to be an ex-MOT guy, before I died in a crash.:confused:

[Motu]

It would be interesting to know how many ex-MOT guys have died in crashes, I suspect not many.

An ex MOT Policeman in a community where I lived dissapeared off the face of the earth,he didn't die in a car crash,but if he ended up where he should off,he might of wished he did die...

[vifferman]

An ex MOT Policeman in a community where I lived dissapeared off the face of the earth,he didn't die in a car crash,but if he ended up where he should off,he might of wished he did die...
That must've been me, because I often wish I did die.

Oh wait... I already did, didn't I?




So hard sometimes to keep track of whether I'm dead or alive.... :confused:

[scumdog]

I have and always will speed and do silly things, but I'm damn sure that 2 things have saved my butt many times; one is that I made my mistakes in cars that would be considered mobility scooters these days. Low speeds = small hits.
the second is that, whatever their other faults, the MOT had brilliant rider/driver training which still comes to the fore in risky situations.
It would be interesting to know how many ex-MOT guys have died in crashes, I suspect not many.

Lous right on this one, after the merger 'somebody' noticed the number of police cars involved in crashes had increased and thought it could be the new ex-MOT guys but was red faced to discover they had virtualy nil input into the wrecking of police cars -ergo it must just be the existing police. DOH!

[Ixion]

So hard sometimes to keep track of whether I'm dead or alive.... :confused:

I find it helps to make up a couple of cards, one saying "Dead" the other "Alive" and hang the appropriate one on the wall . Change as necessary. Then all you need to do to find out is glance at the wall.

Only problem is that it doesn't work when you've got a hangover. 'Cos then you're alive but feel like you should be dead.

[vifferman]

I find it helps to make up a couple of cards, one saying "Dead" the other "Alive" and hang the appropriate one on the wall . Change as necessary. Then all you need to do to find out is glance at the wall.

Only problem is that it doesn't work when you've got a hangover. 'Cos then you're alive but feel like you should be dead.
Thanx for that, Mr Ixion, Sir. :niceone:

No problemo about hangovers, because being a corpse, if I drink, the alcohomohol runs out the holes.:confused:

[Pixie]

Darwin: survival of the fittest
Dirty Harry:A man's got to know his limitations.
Homer Simpson:Doh

[Pixie]

Well, perhaps, we either need to collectively (as a society) say that we cannot afford these vehicles and limit their use and importation.. (or add a high performance tax or something) OR we need to realise that this sort of thing is a facet of human behaviour and bloody hard to do much about - thus stop wringing your hands and whining in the news paper when something goes wrong... As it will... Dunno what is worse really..

Paul N
Well, It's one of the few things that nature has at the moment to weed out the defectives in the species.
Although she's working on a whole bunch of new viruses

[Pixie]

I'd love to see something like that. The problem with your suggestion is that it is simple, clear cut, simple to administer, a therefore unworkable.

Please create something more confusing.

1/5
And can bring in more revenue!

[Coldkiwi]

I'll agree with a bit of kettle naming here on the 'naughty speeder' but surely the staggering thing is NOT that the guy was speeding (young rebellious male, what a surprise) but that the mother didn't think anything was wrong with her son going very fast, at night, on a poorly lit road with mates in the car is just deeply hurtful to the rest of the families grieving for their boys.