House insulation prices being "inflated".

[Swoop]

I have found this to be a timely discovery. Having investigated the costs involved of underfloor insulation for home, it appeared (at the time the scheme was being introduced) that a substantial mark-up was being applied "somewhere" in the process.

The concept of purchasing some underfloor panels and then fitting them myself, was "Verboten". I would have to have them professionally installed to be able to get funding assistance for the whole process.

The laughable part is the professionals who are being recruited to do the installation work. The unemployed appear to be being recruited. Not a bad idea but they cannot really be called "professionals". Perhaps "approved" would be a better term to use.


My solution has been to ignore the gubbinment process (how unusual...) and simply purchase/install by myself. The total cost would be less since I can get trade rates from a supplier.

Just nice to see that the media are asking similar questions to what I was thinking at the time.



Officials to check reports of insulation price hikes. (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10590035)

Energy officials have been asked to examine whether heating and insulation companies are putting up prices to take advantage of a Government scheme.

There have been reports of companies raising prices in the wake of the Government-subsidised Warm Up New Zealand scheme, developed with the Green Party

Run by the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority (EECA), the scheme will see a $323 million fund to subsidise the insulation of 180,000 pre-2000 houses by 2013.

The fund will pay 33 per cent of the cost of insulating floors and ceilings. It allows claims of up to $1300 in insulation subsidies and $500 for a heating appliance.

Community Service Card holders can get more funding. Prime Minister John Key said yesterday he would be concerned if the subsidy had the effect of leading to higher prices and not the anticipated benefit to consumers, the Dominion Post newspaper reported.

"I've certainly said to my officials I think it's something we should have a look at."

One Lower Hutt man found that a Government-approved provider charged $700 more than a company that had not signed up to the scheme.

Approved companies say they offer a superior service and face compliance costs because of the scheme.

They are warning that many people will not have insulation and heating installed by next winter because the demand is so great, and the first year's subsidies will run out.

EECA residential manager, Robert Linterman, said some consumers had complained about excessively high quotes from Government-approved providers, but had usually not been comparing the same products.

Approved providers were on a contract until the end of September. Applicants for approved status after that had been asked to submit prices.

[Hitcher]

Let's get tradespeople to self-regulate!

[Swoop]

Or perhaps provide another option? A homeowner can install insulation if they have basic skills.

Or has the "good old kiwi bloke" been faggotted down to having to call in a "consultant" all the time?
RIP. The good ol' kiwi "can do" attitude.

[ynot slow]

Would think any sparky,plumber or pile replacement guys would be ideal as well,not to mention most kiwi blokes.I have done the under house tv co-ax wiring,and figure I could put insulation under flooring.

[Morcs]

Anyone looking for insulation I highly recommend airfoam (www.airfoam.co.nz)

I have worked with this product during installation. Its cheaper. Its rated higher than batts. It takes on average a day to install and you dont have to pull your house to bits.

[imdying]

Or perhaps provide another option? A homeowner can install insulation if they have basic skills.

Or has the "good old kiwi bloke" been faggotted down to having to call in a "consultant" all the time?
RIP. The good ol' kiwi "can do" attitude.Yeah exactly right. 'Tradesman' are some of the most hopeless shoddy workers I've ever come across... fuck letting them near my house.

[bungbung]

Anyone looking for insulation I highly recommend airfoam (www.airfoam.co.nz)

I have worked with this product during installation. Its cheaper. Its rated higher than batts. It takes on average a day to install and you dont have to pull your house to bits.

I understand that Airfoam is not covered by the govt subsidy.
Why is that?

[JMemonic]

Isn't airfoam unliked by the fire service as well? I understand the concept of it but I am not sure I like the idea of it if it produces increased toxic gases when burnt, and is thought to be difficult to extinguish, its basically expanded foam right, that stuff seems to burn just look at the coolstore fires.

[Mully]

We used this stuff for under our floors: http://www.homeinsulation.co.nz/underfloor-silverzone/

Made a world of difference.

And Swoop (or should that be Swhoop?) - you're getting slack. Insulating prices being inflated isn't enough of a pun - they should have been padded, perhaps.

[Swoop]

We used this stuff for under our floors: http://www.homeinsulation.co.nz/underfloor-silverzone/

Made a world of difference.
I investigated the polystyrene foam panels that fit between floor joists. There are 3 main types on the market but Expol (http://www.expol.co.nz/) came out the cheapest after a few enquiries.

My concerns were that there appeared to be a bit of hefty profitmaking happening when this scheme is meant to assist homeowners.

[Morcs]

I understand that Airfoam is not covered by the govt subsidy.
Why is that?

Pretty sure it is. Give em a call.
And do your research. It is safe as.
Ive seen 'fireproof' batts nearly burn a garage down.

[AllanB]

I discovered the same years ago when they started offering subsidies on home heater installation - install prices went up a lot!

[smoky]

There's been 5 people die - and I'm not sure how many injured with installing silver foil under floor insulation - stapling into wiring and making the foil live
So be careful for that one

Expol falls out after a while, especially if your prone to wind getting under the house

The best product I've found is www.novatherm.co.nz
environmentally friendly with no formaldehyde leaching, uses up to 45% recycled material

The black polythene on the ground as a damp barrier is unproven and there's speculation that it's a waste of time and money.

[Mully]

There's been 5 people die - and I'm not sure how many injured with installing silver foil under floor insulation - stapling into wiring and making the foil live
So be careful for that one

Yes, do be careful with that. Safety First (tm), and all that.

[RantyDave]

Anyone looking for insulation I highly recommend airfoam (www.airfoam.co.nz)
We got it put in a couple of months ago for much the same reasons as you outline. It was quick and easy although the house is damp for a few days after as the foam dries out. It appears to work though.

It's not covered by the government subsidy - mostly because ceiling (done already) and underfloor (can't be done in our house) are better results for less effort.

Dave

[Swoop]

Expol falls out after a while,
The manufacturer states that a bracket is to be fixed under the panel, thus preventing this.
RTFM proceedure has been ignored by those who suffer from "fallout".

[Marmoot]

The laughable part is the professionals who are being recruited to do the installation work. The unemployed appear to be being recruited. Not a bad idea but they cannot really be called "professionals". Perhaps "approved" would be a better term to use.


My solution has been to ignore the gubbinment process (how unusual...) and simply purchase/install by myself. The total cost would be less since I can get trade rates from a supplier.

The installers, albeit of varying experience levels, would have a bit of training and supervision. At the very least it would have supervision, and most importantly, liability to be complained to if the insulation does not do its job.

On the contrary, self-installation presents its' own problems. A lot of us cannot do a decent install that even trained monkeys might laugh at our work. And if something goes wrong, you can't sue yourself.

The only thing that needs work is the audit of the "approved installers" to ensure there is no pricejackings, which is what the government is currently working on.

And to balance things, Labour + Greens government was trying to regulate the dogs with microchips but I can't remember them giving out 30% off vouchers for that.

[Morcs]

It's not covered by the government subsidy - mostly because ceiling (done already) and underfloor (can't be done in our house) are better results for less effort.
Dave

As someone pointed out to me last night:
>the government only subidise the floor and ceiling.
>And when a courier sends a package, the box doesnt just have a top and a bottom. Bit stupid without the sides.
>To insulate your walls with gib and batts is around $30,000. only $1300 of that can be subsidised.
So Airfoam is the only realistic solution for walls without spending silly money.

Not wanting to get into a debate, just pointing out these facts :)

[James Deuce]

Farmers got to behave like this for decades.

Government subsidies and protectionist tariffs are the primary tools of the devil. They stratify societies and poison International trade.

[BMWST?]

its called supply and demand......

[westie]

Isn't airfoam unliked by the fire service as well? I understand the concept of it but I am not sure I like the idea of it if it produces increased toxic gases when burnt, and is thought to be difficult to extinguish, its basically expanded foam right, that stuff seems to burn just look at the coolstore fires.

LOL Air Foam is not an expanding foam. Air Foam is made on site and expanded through machinery before entering the wall.
It is Non toxic and will not create a fire hazard.
Its best to know something about the product you comment on before commenting ????
What you are talking about is a yellow toxic urethane foam used for sealing things like holes in walls where plumbing etc goes through.

Also the insulation government scheme covers the ceiling and the floor insulation.
The government schemes have always had their ups and downs however their new scheme is missing something important......the walls.
Has anyone ever tried to keep their beers cool by using the lid of a chilly bin and no sides??????

[Deano]

Has anyone ever tried to keep their beers cool by using the lid of a chilly bin and no sides??????

Floor and ceiling is better than nothing though.

I just had a heat pump and under floor insulation (100 square metres) installed for $3500. I'm stoked. There is no way in hell I have time (or the inclination) to crawl around in the dirt under my house to do it.

[James Deuce]

its called supply and demand......

In this instance it's the very opposite of supply and demand. Market Intervention by Socialists has inflated "supply and demand" artificially.

[ready4whatever]

with the fire going flat tack i wish we didnt have insulation

[mashman]

A guy at work said he found something on these under floor Expol products and that they've been rotting joists as they collect moisture... As pointed out earlier, it's almost pointless just doing the ceiling and floors if the walls haven't been done. Add to that the fact that you have aluminium windows with moisture drain holes as they just let in cold air and all the expense of insulation become somewhat negligable... FPB my ass... PAH!!!

[Swoop]

A guy at work said he found something on these under floor Expol products and that they've been rotting joists as they collect moisture... Add to that the fact that you have aluminium windows with moisture drain holes as they just let in cold air and all the expense of insulation become somewhat negligable...
The problem with many houses, is the fact that they cannot breathe. The drainholes are a tiny contributor to the process and do not allow vast air movement.
Sealed cavities are more of the problem, as experienced with jimmy hardie's finest (crap) products, which effectively seal an area... until the systems fail... letting in moisture, which then rots the timber.

Expol has two ridges on the top surface which keep the product away from the underside of the flooring and allowing a small airflow (hopefully).

I know of a few houses that used polystyrene blocks in the walls and also in the ceiling!:gob: I think we will be seeing them again in the future...

[mashman]

The problem with many houses, is the fact that they cannot breathe. The drainholes are a tiny contributor to the process and do not allow vast air movement.
Sealed cavities are more of the problem, as experienced with jimmy hardie's finest (crap) products, which effectively seal an area... until the systems fail... letting in moisture, which then rots the timber.

Expol has two ridges on the top surface which keep the product away from the underside of the flooring and allowing a small airflow (hopefully).

I know of a few houses that used polystyrene blocks in the walls and also in the ceiling!:gob: I think we will be seeing them again in the future...

I'll try getting a few more details and the source of my colleagues information in regards to Expol...

Granted the drain holes don't allow great air movement, but they do let in cold damp air at night as they are open, which kind of negates the reasons for adding insulation to a house, no? Other sources of air movement include the spot light sockets. More often than not when spot lights are fitted, there is no sealing in the ceiling between the fitting and the hole drilled... for fire reasons i've been told... I have changed bulbs in a few houses and everytime i get up there there's a breeze pumping cold air into my face... Again why lag your house when the hot air rises it goes through the exact same gaps as the falling cold air? I thought the idea behind heating a house was to keep warm air inside and not heat the roof space...

Whilst i understand that little air movement can promote moisture build up, where is the moisture coming from other than outside. If you don't have a sealed house, you will end up with moisture coming in from the outside. Granted that's going to happen when you open and close your front door, but allowing it to get in through drain holes and ill thought out ceiling lighting will more than contribute to the moisture problem. We had a sealed house in Scotland, yes colder and damper than here, but we didn't have condensation. There was no insulation anywhere in the house. The only difference i can see between the houses is that we don't have aluminium frames (PVC/Wood), we didn't have drain holes for moisture and we had light fittings that did not allow air to pass through them into the roof space and vice versa for cold air falling into the house and here we have all of the above, but with insulation...

Seriously, why does this happen? Why spend money on insulation if your windows aren't future proof, your light fittings aren't future proof and your house allows cold air in because your doors aren't sealed etc???

[Morcs]

The problem with many houses, is the fact that they cannot breathe. The drainholes are a tiny contributor to the process and do not allow vast air movement.
Sealed cavities are more of the problem, as experienced with jimmy hardie's finest (crap) products, which effectively seal an area... until the systems fail... letting in moisture, which then rots the timber.

Expol has two ridges on the top surface which keep the product away from the underside of the flooring and allowing a small airflow (hopefully).

I know of a few houses that used polystyrene blocks in the walls and also in the ceiling!:gob: I think we will be seeing them again in the future...

Open a window?

[JMemonic]

Hmm perhaps the concept of question marks was a little misleading, I actually asked a question well several, lets review.



Isn't airfoam unliked by the fire service as well? I understand the concept of it but I am not sure I like the idea of it if it produces increased toxic gases when burnt, and is thought to be difficult to extinguish,


It is Non toxic and will not create a fire hazard.


I see that it is apparently non toxic, and does not burn, yet fire service guys tell me it makes putting out cavity fires more difficult.


its basically expanded foam right, that stuff seems to burn just look at the coolstore fires.

LOL Air Foam is not an expanding foam. Air Foam is made on site and expanded through machinery before entering the wall.


So its an expanded foam, or is it um expanded air? shredded paper?, the demo I saw where the had some in a cavity that they then cut open it was stated that the product is an expanded foam, and upon reading the website it seems to be an expanded foam, so you are saying its not :gob:


Its best to know something about the product you comment on before commenting ????

I WAS ENDEAVOURING TO DISCOVER MORE ! (that's an exclamation mark, its the opposite of a question mark and denotes a statement)


What you are talking about is a yellow toxic urethane foam used for sealing things like holes in walls where plumbing etc goes through.

Ok that yellow stuff in a can said it was non toxic as well.


Also the insulation government scheme covers the ceiling and the floor insulation.
The government schemes have always had their ups and downs however their new scheme is missing something important......the walls.
Has anyone ever tried to keep their beers cool by using the lid of a chilly bin and no sides??????

Yeah we get that, I actually have underfloor and ceiling insulation so had an open mind about this product but now....

[Deano]

Well with the newly installed underfloor insulation, we can feel the floor is not as cold as it used - prob a couple of degrees warmer, so to the naysayers, it has made a difference.

A pair of half socks, while not as good as full socks, are still better than no socks ???

[James Deuce]

A pair of half socks, while not as good as full socks, are still better than no socks ???
Depends where you wear the socks.

[Deano]

Depends where you wear the socks.

It might be coincidence, but around the time we got the underfloor insulation, Rex stopped wearing his socks.

Then again, he is bred from hardy stock.

[westie]

Sorry mistook you for an educated person.
You have got the wrong product or your fire men mates do. Either way get ya facts right and you wont be wrong.



Hmm perhaps the concept of question marks was a little misleading, I actually asked a question well several, lets review.



I see that it is apparently non toxic, and does not burn, yet fire service guys tell me it makes putting out cavity fires more difficult.



So its an expanded foam, or is it um expanded air? shredded paper?, the demo I saw where the had some in a cavity that they then cut open it was stated that the product is an expanded foam, and upon reading the website it seems to be an expanded foam, so you are saying its not :gob:



I WAS ENDEAVOURING TO DISCOVER MORE ! (that's an exclamation mark, its the opposite of a question mark and denotes a statement)



Ok that yellow stuff in a can said it was non toxic as well.



Yeah we get that, I actually have underfloor and ceiling insulation so had an open mind about this product but now....

[westie]

I'll try getting a few more details and the source of my colleagues information in regards to Expol...

Granted the drain holes don't allow great air movement, but they do let in cold damp air at night as they are open, which kind of negates the reasons for adding insulation to a house, no? Other sources of air movement include the spot light sockets. More often than not when spot lights are fitted, there is no sealing in the ceiling between the fitting and the hole drilled... for fire reasons i've been told... I have changed bulbs in a few houses and everytime i get up there there's a breeze pumping cold air into my face... Again why lag your house when the hot air rises it goes through the exact same gaps as the falling cold air? I thought the idea behind heating a house was to keep warm air inside and not heat the roof space...

Whilst i understand that little air movement can promote moisture build up, where is the moisture coming from other than outside. If you don't have a sealed house, you will end up with moisture coming in from the outside. Granted that's going to happen when you open and close your front door, but allowing it to get in through drain holes and ill thought out ceiling lighting will more than contribute to the moisture problem. We had a sealed house in Scotland, yes colder and damper than here, but we didn't have condensation. There was no insulation anywhere in the house. The only difference i can see between the houses is that we don't have aluminium frames (PVC/Wood), we didn't have drain holes for moisture and we had light fittings that did not allow air to pass through them into the roof space and vice versa for cold air falling into the house and here we have all of the above, but with insulation...

Seriously, why does this happen? Why spend money on insulation if your windows aren't future proof, your light fittings aren't future proof and your house allows cold air in because your doors aren't sealed etc???

Moisture is created when a warm air mass comes in contact with a cold surface. Mostly when in contact with the uninsulated walls. Becoming cooler and falling and becoming more cold exponentially. This creates moisture on windows and mould on walls and ceilings. Moisture in the home also comes from us breathing, sweating and cooking among other sources.
Good curtains will help your heat loss with windows and something to stop warm air falling in behind the curtains from the top(convection currents). Older buildings used pelmets to stop the air flow downwards behind curtains.
The cure is insulation creating a thermal envelope and ventilation.

[James Deuce]

You're not a westie!

You know "science".

[westie]

You're not a westie!

You know "science".

:Oops: .

[JMemonic]

Sorry mistook you for an educated person.
You have got the wrong product or your fire men mates do. Either way get ya facts right and you wont be wrong.

Was not wrong in the first place, let me repeat a question mark (thats one of these in case you forgot ?) denotes a question and in fact how one learns.

Never mind the concept is beyond you I guess. You sure you and I never worked together, your not a Richard Cranium are you? Or perhaps you are.

[mashman]

Moisture is created when a warm air mass comes in contact with a cold surface. Mostly when in contact with the uninsulated walls. Becoming cooler and falling and becoming more cold exponentially. This creates moisture on windows and mould on walls and ceilings. Moisture in the home also comes from us breathing, sweating and cooking among other sources.
Good curtains will help your heat loss with windows and something to stop warm air falling in behind the curtains from the top(convection currents). Older buildings used pelmets to stop the air flow downwards behind curtains.
The cure is insulation creating a thermal envelope and ventilation.

Heh, whilst i understand the science behind the creation of moisture/condensation, we have used very good curtains, but the aluminium window frames transfer both warm and cold air. The curtains separating the room from windows don't really make too much of a difference as you're trapping cold air behind the curtains. You mention convection currents. When air behind the curtains is transferred into the room it has to be replaced with the warm air from the room, and it being cold behind the curtains will only cool the warm air and the windows get covered in condensation and the air becomes cold and you have to heat your house more etc... I understand that every little helps, but i'd be very surprised if you could save more than 50 bucks a year by adding, for arguments sake, 4000 bucks worth of insulation materials (under floor and ceiling insulation, as well as high quality curtains)... that to me is not justifyable...

Now don't rag on me as I may well have missed something, but i'm trying to understand how you can call a house future proof and yet still have to heat your house for 10 hours a day in the winter. Like i say i've come from another country and can only assume the building standards over here cater for NZ conditions. I just object to the term future proof when it's anything but, especially when we used to heat the house for 3-4 hours a day when the temperature never rose above -5 all day.

[westie]

Lol I'm not gonna rag on ya. You want to know and understand things.
The moisture build up is a combined effort of the "Whole House"
Houses should be enveloped in insulation to keep the temperature of the house, furniture and all things inside warm. That way it takes less to heat and re-heat.

In the building you speak of they probably have fully insulated with good materials specific to their purpose and have adequate if not over adequate R values to boot.
They will be properly ventilated also.

In Nz we have a legacy of 100 years of uninsulated homes where the owners shut all the windows to stop the "cold air" from getting in.
I came across one man who had taped plastic over all his windows and stopped and "cold air" getting in. The house was wet with moisture and the air full of mouldy smell. His young daughter also died of a respitory demise.

I agree we shouldn't have to heat our houses so much and yes I agree our building standards have probably been crappy.

Oh and the curtain thing. Pelmets were built above and housed the curtains to stop the flow of warm air down behind the curtains. The curtains should also be run all the way to the floor to help prevent the current occurring too.




Heh, whilst i understand the science behind the creation of moisture/condensation, we have used very good curtains, but the aluminium window frames transfer both warm and cold air. The curtains separating the room from windows don't really make too much of a difference as you're trapping cold air behind the curtains. You mention convection currents. When air behind the curtains is transferred into the room it has to be replaced with the warm air from the room, and it being cold behind the curtains will only cool the warm air and the windows get covered in condensation and the air becomes cold and you have to heat your house more etc... I understand that every little helps, but i'd be very surprised if you could save more than 50 bucks a year by adding, for arguments sake, 4000 bucks worth of insulation materials (under floor and ceiling insulation, as well as high quality curtains)... that to me is not justifyable...

Now don't rag on me as I may well have missed something, but i'm trying to understand how you can call a house future proof and yet still have to heat your house for 10 hours a day in the winter. Like i say i've come from another country and can only assume the building standards over here cater for NZ conditions. I just object to the term future proof when it's anything but, especially when we used to heat the house for 3-4 hours a day when the temperature never rose above -5 all day.

[short-circuit]

Soooooooo was there a consensus regarding the best product to use? With one you risk electrocution, another doesnt breath and therefore rots your floor joists, another will just fall out over time and another is a potential toxic fire hazard!!!!

Whats the best way to go?

[short-circuit]

.......Bump

[Morcs]

Soooooooo was there a consensus regarding the best product to use? With one you risk electrocution, another doesnt breath and therefore rots your floor joists, another will just fall out over time and another is a potential toxic fire hazard!!!!

Whats the best way to go?

Get a nice big thick robe.

[BMWST?]

In this instance it's the very opposite of supply and demand. Market Intervention by Socialists has inflated "supply and demand" artificially.

artificial it may be but there is demand and it seems limited suppply