Lowering the limit? Don't forget the alternatives...

[Genestho]

Well, the debate is on regarding tackling drink driving, as an "Area of High Concern" and part of the Road Safety Strategy to 2020 - "Safer Journeys".

We- the public are invited to have our say on this by 5pm Friday. 2nd October 2009

Full Discussion Document (http://www.transport.govt.nz/saferjourneys/Documents/SaferJourneys_FULL_Final_ISBN.pdf)
Summarised Document (http://www.transport.govt.nz/saferjourneys/Documents/Safer%20Journeys%20SummaryGuide_ISBN.pdf)
Youth Document (http://www.transport.govt.nz/saferjourneys/Documents/Safer%20Journeys%20Youth%20Guide_FINAL%20V2.pdf)
Online Submissions (http://www.transport.govt.nz/saferjourneys/Pages/Makeasubmission.aspx)

BADD WILL NOT support lowering drink drive limits, preferring to support the aternatives (see poll)

We probably should, as that's the PC thing to do, our limit is now one of the highest in the world.
A drink driver only needs to drive once to maim or kill.

I believe with the numbers MOT are talking about saving on our killing fields, we can achieve the same without targeting the whole population, addressing the 57% 2005 - 2007 stats who did not hold a full license, many smashes were well in excess of our current 80mg/100ml limit.

The downsides of a proposed limit are fairly obvious, and I suggest a little feeble.
Infringment penalties will address the 50mg - 80 mg group, while courts will continue to address the groups above 80mg/100ml.

I support the alternatives provided - Maintain the current BAC and increase the severity of penalties, better informed education to the masses, zero tolerance for youth and commercial drivers, zero tolerance for Recidivist Drink Drivers for three years and Interlocking Devices - I've put in a detailed report (http://forum.transport.govt.nz/index.php?topic=124.0) regarding "How Interlock Devices work" at the Safer Journeys Online Forum.

For those that doubt the technology, or make opinions without knowing how these work successfully.

Using the Safer Journeys public consultation Initiatives - Tell me how you feel. Or, have a vote please :)

[Hitcher]

Zero limit. Zero tolerance.

The message is "Don't drink and drive", not "Drink a little and hope you're not pissed or over the limit".

Alcohol and drugs are major contributors to motor accidents and deaths. Set the standard at a level that can be easily enforced.

[Genestho]

Zero limit. Zero tolerance.

The message is "Don't drink and drive", not "Drink a little and hope you're not pissed or over the limit".


That's my quandry right there.

There is a mixed message telling us not to drink and drive, but yet we're also told dependant on sex types, we can have a little and hope for the best!
(Bit like having cars on the road with no speedo and a 100km speed limit)

It's got nothing to do with, how many drinks per hour, per sex at all. And if that's the education we've been sending out there, no wonder we're in trouble.

Our physical and mental makeup is different from one individual to the next, from one day to the next, and every individuals liver expellation is different, dependant on its health. We should not be expected to assume our limit.

The other thing is - not many smashes occur with a BAC between the official CAS stats 0.05 and 0.08. Predominantly smashes appear to be well over the current limit..perhaps the idea is to lower the limit, to lower drink driving and attitudes in general.

[James Deuce]

Smoke dope and drive everywhere at 20km/hr.

[Jonno.]

Most of accidents that occur when a person is drunk is when they are well above the current limit. These people just don't care and are I think it would be a good idea to deal with this before frying the small fish.

How many times do you read in the paper about someone who is on their third or fourth drink driving offence, some have even been to jail and they just do not care.

[Mikkel]

You missed something: Work actively to change both the Kiwi drinking culture and the Kiwi driving culture.

That's where the real problem lies.


Zero limit. Zero tolerance.

Won't change anything. It's not the people who actually take their personal responsibilities serious that are the problem. Those who don't give a shit won't give a shit whether it's more or less illegal - and I doubt anyone would consider introducing a death penalty for drink driving.

Prohibition has never worked, anywhere, anytime, at all... not unless there is a real threat of death or bodily harm.

[Usarka]

I like most kiwis believe it's the "drunk" drivers causing the problem, not the people who have a brain cell and work within the current alcohol limits. I am however more than happy to be proven wrong.


Can someone publish the stats for average or distribution of alchohol blood levels in accidents caused by alcohol impaired drivers.

If such stats do not exist, then why not?

[Swoop]

The current limit allows for a couple of social drinks.

The problem is the recidivist drunk drivers who have no concience about heading out totally plastered.
Enforce the current laws.

[What?]

What Mikkel said.
If laws worked, we wouldn't need police.

[MSTRS]

Smoke dope and drive everywhere at 20km/hr.

Ooooo...that's scary. I try to keep it under 15kph. Even then, the reel seems to be running too fast.

[Flatcap]

Zero limit. Zero tolerance.

The message is "Don't drink and drive", not "Drink a little and hope you're not pissed or over the limit".

Alcohol and drugs are major contributors to motor accidents and deaths. Set the standard at a level that can be easily enforced.


So none of Nana's brandy soaked pudding at Christmas then....

[Pussy]

I'm 100% on your side, T.G.W.... but the "law" isn't working.
Stringent firearms laws don't stop illegal use of them.
The anti smacking law hasn't stopped innocent children being killed by violence.
Is it the general lack of responsibility and discipline in society causing the problem?
I'd love to know the answers

[James Deuce]

Ooooo...that's scary. I try to keep it under 15kph. Even then, the reel seems to be running too fast.

Yeah, that was open road speed limit. Urban will be 5kph. Accidents will consist of a gentle bump followed by 15 minutes of rolling around laughing.

[MSTRS]

Yeah, that was open road speed limit. Urban will be 5kph. Accidents will consist of a gentle bump followed by 15 minutes of rolling around laughing.

Would be tough finding the time to satisfy the munchies...

[MSTRS]

Back on topic tho...
Law changes need to be sensible. I mean, they have to resonate with the general population. There is no will to lower limits, rather to toughen up on what we have got now. Why is it that we see repeat offenders not spending significant time in jail, for instance. 3 strikes seems to mean 15 for some judges.

[Genestho]

I like most kiwis believe it's the "drunk" drivers causing the problem, not the people who have a brain cell and work within the current alcohol limits. I am however more than happy to be proven wrong.


Can someone publish the stats for average or distribution of alchohol blood levels in accidents caused by alcohol impaired drivers.

If such stats do not exist, then why not?

The only statistical references to BAC in the Full discussion document, are youth, ages 15 -19 and Ages 25 - 34.
And these aren't overall crash stats, theyre from a 2008 AA Poll, and "New Zealand Focus Group"

Page 9 of Alcohol and Drug crash (http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Alcohol-Drugs-Crash-Factsheet.pdf)stats - clearly states that over half of drink driver deaths that tested positive, had a BAC of over 150/100ml.

Page 8 of the same pdf, shows distribution of BAC of Drivers killed in road crashes, from '89 - '07

I cut out a couple of graphs showing distribution of BAC of drink driver caused fatalities at my website (http://www.badd.co.nz/5_LoweringTheLimit.php) (click images to enlarge).

Also a clearer picture - page 4 of Alcohol related fatalities (http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Pages%20137%20to%20148%20from%20Motor%20Vehicle%20 Crashes%20in%20New%20Zealand%202007.pdf)pdf, from LTSA via NZTA.

Page 5 of Motor vehicle Crash data (http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motor-Vehicle-Crash-Data.pdf) explains what the stats mean..again this addresses fatalities, not overall crash info.

Only statistical data I've ever come across is only in relation to fatalities, not to say it's not in the public domain, it could be requested under the information act.

Here's something interesting from the Safer Journeys Document...

"Those who argue for keeping the BAC at 0.08 say that few drivers are killed with a BAC between 0.05 and 0.08.
However this position ignores the other Road users that are killed by drunk drivers and reflects a misunderstanding of NZ's crash statistics.

For every 100 drunk driver or rider killed in road crashes, there are 55 of their passengers and another 35 sober road users who die with them. This was the number addressed at my website the last couple of years

The number of drivers killed whose alcohol level is recorded is only part of the total number of drivers involved in serious and fatal crashes where alcohol was a contributing factor. Between 2003 and 2007, there were 7,808 drivers involved in crashes "where the presence of alcohol was suspected" and of this number only 4,213 drivers had a BAC level recorded."

Strange that the public are asked to give an opinion based on fatality statistics which clearly show what they do, and polls?

[Genestho]

Also, I should've said in the first post, that Poll option 8 - Move towards compulsary use of Alcohol Interlocking Devices, are suggested to be paired with Zero Tolerance for three years for Recidivst drink drivers, not Joe Average.

[ynot slow]

Education is the way.
We have laws to enforce,just that the judges don't enforce them.How often on police 7 or highway patrol you here he/she was almost double the limit and got 80hours community service disqualified for 6 months.Or even less,there is no requirement to stop if they don't want to.

We all know not to drink and drive,same as keep to 100km or relevant speed limit,don't operate a heavy vehicle outside log book recomendations.

In a real world all vehicles would have 3rd party/full insurance,wof,rego,never speed etc.Never happen me thinks.

[CookMySock]

There is a mixed message telling us not to drink and drive, but yet we're also told dependant on sex types, we can have a little and hope for the best!Ok what about Instant-fine infringement notices for those with very minor levels of breath alcohol? Something in the range of $80-$150. Current blood-alcohol limits and penalties to remain.

Yes, its just a slap on the wrist, but there SHOULD be a slap on the wrist for what they are doing.

Steve

[NDORFN]

Zero limit. Zero tolerance.

The message is "Don't drink and drive", not "Drink a little and hope you're not pissed or over the limit".

Alcohol and drugs are major contributors to motor accidents and deaths. Set the standard at a level that can be easily enforced.

I'm down with that.

[Genestho]

Ok what about Instant-fine infringement notices for those with very minor levels of breath alcohol? Steve

They'd do that when lowering the limit - I say when, because I am in no doubt it will happen.

The idea is not to clog up the courts system with the lower limit.

[Genestho]

Interestingly alot of the posts here regard current enforcement and how ineffective it is, even alot of cops on the beat back that sentiment, and express frustration.

Heres something I recieved last night...
"....spent all day reading files of the national road safety committee - 3000 pages, as they would not let us take home under the official info act.

Re sentences, there was an interesting run down from Justice - saying their goal is to stop jailing traffic offenders as by 2014 there will be no vacancies at the inn due to increasing violent offences in 18-35 year olds.

It said they will be looking hard across all depts for alternatives for imprisonment. That an adverse consequence of increasing breath checks is more people with a long DUI record - and in light of this a new penalty regime needs to be hatched ie a SOFTER one. They also talked about jail being inappropriate for healh issues ie addicts, and about finding smarter ways to address recidivists."

I don't like theories, it's a rumour, but make of that what you will.

[James Deuce]

Interestingly alot of the posts here regard current enforcement and how ineffective it is, even the cops back that sentiment.

Heres something I recieved last night...
"....spent all day reading files of the national road safety committee - 3000 pages, as they would not let us take home under the official info act.

Re sentences, there was an interesting run down from Justice - saying their goal is to stop jailing traffic offenders as by 2014 there will be no vacancies at the inn due to increasing violent offences in 18-35 year olds.

It said they will be looking hard across all depts for alternatives for imprisonment. That an adverse consequence of increasing breath checks is more people with a long DUI record - and in light of this a new penalty regime needs to be hatched ie a SOFTER one. They also talked about jail being inappropriate for healh issues ie addicts, and about finding smarter ways to address recidivists."

It's a rumour, but make of that what you will.

Gaaaah!

I have a solution.

Escape from New York. Except I vote we use Masterton instead.

[Genestho]

Gaaaah!

I have a solution.

Escape from New York. Except I vote we use Masterton instead.

LOL! Marrssss Ta Din?:gob: You're mad! :laugh:

[Genestho]

Usarka.

The 'why' question you raised, has had me thinking.
Not only is there little evidence regarding overall smashes, they also have not released the recorded BAC distribution levels in the 30.000 EBA prosecutions to date this year.
So I've asked the question (http://forum.transport.govt.nz/index.php?topic=133.msg842#msg842) over at MOT.
If no response, I'll probably need to release the question to the media, to balance the reality of this debate out, if at least only to get the stats.
We need to be able to make a decision affecting the majority, based on the full facts, not just part of the picture.