Warning- for when you up the pace.

[MSTRS]

What...by riding like a cock on dangerous roads? At least advise people to only push it a little on roads with escape routes, corners you can see through and decent soft grassy run-offs. Show me where I advised anyone to ride like a cock.



Ride in on the road for a long enough period of time and you'll develop the "booby trap" handling skills
I believe that that is exactly what I said.



'limits' : - on a motorcycle it's where you go beyond your abilities and fall off.

Anyone regularly pushing more than about 70% of their "limit" on the road is gonna make a mistake or hit a "booby trap" and suffer serious injury. Just ask the guy who started this thread.
I never put a % on the margin for error. What ever ones riding skills are, at no point should a rider do more than scratch at the surface of their current limits. A nibble is all it takes to raise ones skills from what they were. Baby steps, if you will, but necessary to develop.




For a supposed mentor, I find some of the advice you give frankly.....bollox. No offence like
Good on ya :finger: no offence like....

[Katman]

An answer occasionally would be nice, Katman...

What was the question again?

:wacko:

[Bonez]

Beyond makes no secret of the fact that he encourages motorcyclists to test their limits. I'm asking whether car drivers should be encouraged to do the same on twisty country public roads.

Or is it only motorcyclists that are special enough to be allowed that right?You seem to have misread MTRSs post reguarding country roads. Do try to keep up, there's a nice boy.

[yungatart]

What was the question again?

:wacko:

Which one?
There has been so many...almost as many as I've had hot dinners.

Pick any one you like...go on, I dare you!

[Ronin]

What was the question again?

:wacko:

Do Flamigoes forget how to fly?

[Danae]

Lol i am out of here now...good luck with katman guys

[2_SL0]

I have one last question for Katman. Why are you on KB?

[Katman]

Which one?
There has been so many...almost as many as I've had hot dinners.

Pick any one you like...go on, I dare you!

Ok, I'll play your game.

You pick me one.

[MSTRS]

And once again, Katman throws away an opportunity to earn some respect.
Still...you're so far in the hole that one serious and sensible answer isn't really going to help...is it? :oi-grr:
Pity, because someone/s could benefit from such an answer.

[Katman]

And once again, Katman throws away an opportunity to earn some respect.
Still...you're so far in the hole that one serious and sensible answer isn't really going to help...is it? :oi-grr:
Pity, because someone/s could benefit from such an answer.

Fair enough.

I'll continue to regard the pair of you as retards.

[MSTRS]

Let me see... am I gutted to learn that KM thinks I'm a retard? Hmmm. No, I don't believe I am.
:finger:

[Katman]

Let me see... am I gutted to learn that KM thinks I'm a retard? Hmmm. No, I don't believe I am.
:finger:

Ok.........

WHAT THE FUCK WAS THE FUCKING QUESTION???

:weird:

[Maha]

Ok.........

WHAT THE FUCK WAS THE FUCKING QUESTION???

:weird:

How highs a Chinaman?

[Katman]

How highs a Chinaman?

I know.

How long was his brother.

[MSTRS]

There's an entire website right here full of questions that were directed at you. Ones which you dodged answering in your usual manner. You were challenged to pick one and actually answer it. But could you do that? Nope. And as per usual, in response you simply resort to abuse.
*sigh*

[bogan]

How highs a Chinaman?

depends what hes been smoking!

[Katman]

There's an entire website right here full of questions that were directed at you. Ones which you dodged answering in your usual manner. You were challenged to pick one and actually answer it. But could you actually do that? Nope. And like so many of the unanswered question askers, you simply abuse them in typical name-calling fashion.
*sigh*

(I'll go back to the retard theory).

[Maha]

depends what hes been smoking!

Katman got it, its an old joke which may explain why he got it....:girlfight:

[bogan]

Katman got it, its an old joke which may explain why he got it....:girlfight:

yeh, i still dont get it :confused:

[Maha]

yeh, i still dont get it :confused:

How High is a Chinaman (How High is his name)
How Long is also a chinaman and is How Highs brother, they both ride Jappas but thats a whole different story.

[jonbuoy]

Katman - being in the motorcyle trade must have seen a fair few riders and bikes get mashed up. The "ride to survive message" has only sunk in with me in the last couple of years. Doesn't mean you have to ride like a complete nanna just be more aware of the mistakes other people can make and leave yourself a margin to allow for it. If you ride at 99% of your ability you have no margin for yours or other peoples errors. This has been brought home to me as the standard of driving and riding in Spain is so much worse than NZ - I've had to slow down my riding to allow for it.

I never want to stop riding and I never want to end up in hospital again because I can't control my right hand. Since I've been a member of KB I've seen numerous threads of "good" riders being killed in accidents that were most likely completely avoidable. No doubt Katmans seen far more bikes returned to the shop for insurance assessments.

[bogan]

How High is a Chinaman (How High is his name)
How Long is also a chinaman and is How Highs brother, they both ride Jappas but thats a whole different story.

ahhh, now i see, lulz

[beyond]

where did you pull that one out from?

Yeah, I'd like to know where the hell that came from as well???? :confused:


This statement I mean:
Quote:
I don't think anyone who goes out on public roads and regularly lands on their arse should be giving advice.

[scracha]

This statement I mean:
Quote:
I don't think anyone who goes out on public roads and regularly lands on their arse should be giving advice.

How long you been riding? Less than me.
How many times you crashed? More than me.

So who should riders be listening to?

[beyond]

Riding for only 35 years. Most my accidents were pre 18 years old.
Only one bad one in the last 65,000kms (5 years) due to oil from my Scott Oiler on the rear tyre, no fault of my own.

BUT, I suppose that means I know squat. However... I am always learning becuase nobody can ever know it all.

[Katman]

no fault of my own.



The Motorcyclist's Credo.

[SixPackBack]

How long you been riding? Less than me.
How many times you crashed? More than me.

So who should riders be listening to?

As you're obviously smokin' crack, NOT listening to you seems freaken obvious innit!

What is it with individuals who think they know you or your business??

[beyond]

The Motorcyclist's Credo.

You try riding around a hard left hander with oil over the left side of your tyre and not coming off. Unless of course you think you're superman, but doing that you'll find out you're not.

[beyond]

As you're obviously smokin' crack, NOT listening to you seems freaken obvious innit!

What is it with individuals who think they know you or your business??

Yep, too many people come onto this forum making assumptions when they don't know about the person they are making statements about.

[Katman]

As you're obviously smokin' crack, NOT listening to you seems freaken obvious innit!

What is it with individuals who think they know you or your business??

Are you Paul's rentboy?

[beyond]

Are you Paul's rentboy?

That's a cheap shot..... you running out of ammo?

[Katman]

That's a cheap shot..... you running out of ammo?

Ouch!

Sounds like I've hit a nerve.

:crazy:

[SixPackBack]

Are you Paul's rentboy?

Up size the hook bro;)

[rosie631]

Katman for forum jerk. Get your votes in now people.

[Grahameeboy]

Katman for forum jerk. Get your votes in now people.

or turn over to the Religious Ravings Thread

[Grahameeboy]

I really don't know what how Beyond started all this "wanking" off at each other.......did he actually say "I am the best rider since sliced bread"...mm "Nop"..."I am ride like Rossi"...mm.."Nah" but recent issue of UK's Bike Magazine did an article using Rossi's skills as a way to ride better.

What ever way you look at it we can all get wiped out easily without involving speed, zones or whatever..faced a driver's door opening on Esmonde Road in traffic stopped at lights..."Reactions like Rossi"....oops..sorry there I go...actually it happened this morning...was lucky...

Let go..Let Beyond

[scracha]

Scot-oiler made me crash. Oh that's a fuckin classic "bro"

[Grahameeboy]

Scot-oiler made me crash. Oh that's a fuckin classic "bro"

Never trust a Scot bro

[Maha]

or turn over to the Religious Ravings Thread

Yeah thats always good for a laugh, 'step into the Jesus Zone'!!....:hug:

[Grahameeboy]

Yeah thats always good for a laugh, 'step into the Jesus Zone'!!....:hug:

No its the Jesus Gym at 10bikekids place

[scracha]

Never trust a Scot bro
Now THAT'S the best advice I've read in this thread.

[Grahameeboy]

Now THAT'S the best advice I've read in this thread.

As long as it does "Matamata" I guess

[Swoop]

Yep, too many people come onto this forum making assumptions when they don't know about the person they are making statements about.
A bit like those who have made an assumption on the speed that "might" be the topic of discussion.
Who's to say that the thread isn't about advising someone who has just obtained their full licence, and is now "upping the pace" from 70kmh to 100kmh...

[MSTRS]

A bit like those who have made an assumption on the speed that "might" be the topic of discussion.
Who's to say that the thread isn't about advising someone who has just obtained their full licence, and is now "upping the pace" from 70kmh to 100kmh...

I believe the thread started as a warning and a bit of advice for anyone who has not ridden faster than speed x, impulsively twisting the throttle and finding themselves at speed xx. The numbers don't actually matter, just the effect that the difference will have on the rider's ability to control their bike in unfamiliar territory.

It is not everyone that will do that, yet experience tells us that most will try and some of them will not manage to survive the experience.

PRETTY FUCKING SIMPLE.

But, of course, all the IQ-challenged, self-absorbed site homo habilii assume it is all about encouraging people to go out and ride like cocks 'because you'll have learned how to cope by reading the (un)wise words of Beyond'. What these aforementioned low-IQ morons fail to realise is that yet again they have thrown away the opportunity to contribute to the subject in any meaningful way, instead preferring to point the finger of derision, mock any attempt to develop the original post and when pressed to 'put their money where their mouth is', simply resort to barely articulate personal insults.

[mister.koz]

...
But, of course, all the IQ-challenged, self-absorbed site homo habilii assume it is all about encouraging people to go out and ride like cocks 'because you'll have learned how to cope by reading the (un)wise words of Beyond'. What these aforementioned low-IQ morons fail to realise is that yet again they have thrown away the opportunity to contribute to the subject in any meaningful way, instead preferring to point the finger of derision, mock any attempt to develop the original post and when pressed to 'put their money where their mouth is', simply resort to barely articulate personal insults.

I'm out of bling :(

Good post, good points :)

[MSTRS]

Good post, good points :)

I'd go so far as to say that they are part of the problems they rail against, instead of being part of the solutions that others propose.

[Kiwi Graham]

PRETTY FUCKING SIMPLE.

But, of course, all the IQ-challenged, self-absorbed site homo habilii assume it is all about encouraging people to go out and ride like cocks 'because you'll have learned how to cope by reading the (un)wise words of Beyond'. What these aforementioned low-IQ morons fail to realise is that yet again they have thrown away the opportunity to contribute to the subject in any meaningful way, instead preferring to point the finger of derision, mock any attempt to develop the original post and when pressed to 'put their money where their mouth is', simply resort to barely articulate personal insults.

Good post, well said

Unfortunatly for some, Beyonds posts are like burley to snapper and they cant help themselves :argue:

[mister.koz]

I'd go so far as to say that they are part of the problems they rail against, instead of being part of the solutions that others propose.

Yeah, i certainly get bored of people shooting down ideas and offering nothing in return.

Its schoolyard petulance at its best.

[madbikeboy]

I believe the thread started as a warning and a bit of advice for anyone who has not ridden faster than speed x, impulsively twisting the throttle and finding themselves at speed xx. The numbers don't actually matter, just the effect that the difference will have on the rider's ability to control their bike in unfamiliar territory.

It is not everyone that will do that, yet experience tells us that most will try and some of them will not manage to survive the experience.

PRETTY FUCKING SIMPLE.

But, of course, all the IQ-challenged, self-absorbed site homo habilii assume it is all about encouraging people to go out and ride like cocks 'because you'll have learned how to cope by reading the (un)wise words of Beyond'. What these aforementioned low-IQ morons fail to realise is that yet again they have thrown away the opportunity to contribute to the subject in any meaningful way, instead preferring to point the finger of derision, mock any attempt to develop the original post and when pressed to 'put their money where their mouth is', simply resort to barely articulate personal insults.

I didn't have anything to add, just wanted to see yours quoted since it's one of the few that isn't shite on this thread. Nice one Mstrs!

[imdying]

Reactions 'like Rossi' are good for bugger all on the road... well, that's to say they didn't do Abe much good in any case.

[beyond]

I believe the thread started as a warning and a bit of advice for anyone who has not ridden faster than speed x, impulsively twisting the throttle and finding themselves at speed xx. The numbers don't actually matter, just the effect that the difference will have on the rider's ability to control their bike in unfamiliar territory.

It is not everyone that will do that, yet experience tells us that most will try and some of them will not manage to survive the experience.

PRETTY FUCKING SIMPLE.

But, of course, all the IQ-challenged, self-absorbed site homo habilii assume it is all about encouraging people to go out and ride like cocks 'because you'll have learned how to cope by reading the (un)wise words of Beyond'. What these aforementioned low-IQ morons fail to realise is that yet again they have thrown away the opportunity to contribute to the subject in any meaningful way, instead preferring to point the finger of derision, mock any attempt to develop the original post and when pressed to 'put their money where their mouth is', simply resort to barely articulate personal insults.

I've run out of bling too, but well said and at least some get what I intended to say.

And yes Scracha, was oil and I don't think anyone would have got out of that one including you "the master"

[beyond]

Good post, well said

Unfortunatly for some, Beyonds posts are like burley to snapper and they cant help themselves :argue:

Just wish the snapper bit like that when I went fishing LOL

[boomer]

Are you Paul's rentboy?



No.. but he'll still fck you up the arse for free.. ask him nicely!

[boomer]

Scot-oiler made me crash. Oh that's a fuckin classic "bro"


i wouldn't talk, a southerly and a hint of sun in the west is enough to make you fall over like these fullas

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[Katman]

No.. but he'll still fck you up the arse for free.. ask him nicely!

I've got bad news for him.

My arse ain't free.

[boomer]

I've got bad news for him.

My arse ain't free.

It should be, being it's that loose!

[flyingcrocodile46]

I've got bad news for him.

My arse ain't free.

No doubt.... Perhaps he would be prepared to wait for a turn :lol:

[R-Soul]

If you read between teh lines (very carefully) then you can see Katman's stance on things:

If its wet, and you want to push it - DON'T
If its dry and you want to push it - DON'T
If you are riding with ego - DON'T
If you aren't paying attention, dont ride.
If you are incapacitated by alcohol or drugs, dont ride at all.
Only ride at speeds (in both straight lines and corners) that you feel comfortable at, and always under the speed limit, and that you have good control of the bike at.
ALWAYS (in the literal strict sense of the word) give enough space to stop in COMFORTABLY.

On the road, ride like a Nanna, and then some.

If you want to "find boundaries", or even "scratch the surface" of a boundary, or tickle its tummy- DON'T.
The only time you should be pushing any limits is on the track (but then expect what you get).
Check your bike properly each and every time you use it, because all it takes is a screw in the tyre that may juust have picked up.

And as much as you say "I am not condoning pushing boundaries on the road", by saying that most do do so, you are giving a people feeling that it is OK to do so (lets face it, most people are sheep).

Dont push your boundaries, they will develop at their own rate. And when your personal boundaries surpass what is VERY safe, then go on track if you want to develop them further. but not so that you can push your luck on the road.

The fact is that we all know what is safe, but choose (stupidly) to ignore this and make excuses because we are addicted to the feelings we get from the bikes. Like an alcoholic, laying blame on every one else while guiltily knowing that we were the base cause of our own foibles.
The first step to rehab is admitting you have a problem.

There, I think that sums up Katmans attitude.
Frankly, I agree with him. It's actually just not worth it. Ask the families of the people that have died or been maimed.

If I knew I would die in a crash on the way from work this afternoon because I opened it up on the on ramp, I would never open it up again on the road . EVER.

My addition:

Learn as much as you can as fast as you can by any means neccessary (especially to learn from others mistakes), to give yourself a better cushion against the other idiots pushing their boundaries on the road. I agree that this was perhaps the reason for being of the thread in the first place. There should be a forum for bikers to relte scary experiences and close calls - to let others learn faster.

[fossil]

R-Soul, that is without doubt one of the reasoned postings I have ever read on KB.

[toycollector10]

Everyone wants to move up from 250cc straight to a litre bike, it seems to me.

Why not scare yourself on a 50cc then a 125, then a 250, then a 600, then a 1000.

Scare yourself in steps. The bigger the bike the bigger the fright.

I saw a guy on a big cruiser look over his right shoulder for his mate. He drifted left into a ditch. I did it on a 50cc when I was 15 years old. It took me about 6 seconds at 40 kph, It took cruiser guy 2.5 seconds at 80kph. He should have learned that lesson earlier.

It's all relative, learn to crawl before you run.

[mashman]

The OP should be a spoken "Safety" TV Ad, along with the stories as follow ons... i think people would get the idea pretty quickly. It would also be aimed at educating the car driving public, as to the consideration bikers show for the road itself, and it's other users......... mmmmmmost of the time. Could convey a message quickly though

[Katman]

The OP should be a spoken "Safety" TV Ad, along with the stories as follow ons... i think people would get the idea pretty quickly. It would also be aimed at educating the car driving public, as to the consideration bikers show for the road itself, and it's other users......... mmmmmmost of the time. Could convey a message quickly though

Yeah, a series of "How to treat the road as a racetrack" lessons.

Just what we need.

:weird:

[pritch]

Interesting. I didn't think there was anything in the original post that should cause an argument, but 21 pages later (and counting?) the argument rages.

Perhaps a ride :scooter: this weekend might be theraputic for some? Me included.

[avgas]

avgas is not amused

[avgas]

Everyone wants to move up from 250cc straight to a litre bike, it seems to me.

Why not scare yourself on a 50cc then a 125, then a 250, then a 600, then a 1000.

Scare yourself in steps. The bigger the bike the bigger the fright.

I saw a guy on a big cruiser look over his right shoulder for his mate. He drifted left into a ditch. I did it on a 50cc when I was 15 years old. It took me about 6 seconds at 40 kph, It took cruiser guy 2.5 seconds at 80kph. He should have learned that lesson earlier.

It's all relative, learn to crawl before you run.
I used to think like this, now I want all the squids to go crash litre bikes before they know how to ride.
You see if they die - they won't post here.
This decreases how much I have to read.

So to all those young (and old) heroes - here is your tribute
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[Qkkid]

Look Steve, come on, how can you not see the merits of this Thread?

:laugh: Seriously :killingme
You have to stop wanking first of all :shifty:
So you can get your eye sight back
Also need time for bruises on knuckles to go down from having chair to close under keyboard.
Dont worry Steve (Katman) you can still come on Beyonds (Pauls) "COROMANDEL RIDES" which you do go on YES :yes:
Just make sure you practice what you preach.:yes:

[mashman]

Yeah, a series of "How to treat the road as a racetrack" lessons.

Just what we need.

:weird:

Shame you read it that way... i read it as the OP merely alerting riders to the fact that at some point you will up the pace and you need to know certain things about your motorcycle and what happens to it and you when you go faster. Safety first, plactice plactice plactice... and when i say going faster, it could be 1st and 2nd gear riding and well within the speed limit... it could be going from 50 - 100... it could even be balls out... either way the OP explains what to expect. To me it's educational, to you it's race track lessons WTF??? perhaps you should twist that grip a little harder once in a while... YOU CAN DO IT SAFELY AND STILL STAY WELL WITHIN THE SPEED LIMIT.

[R-Soul]

Shame you read it that way... i read it as the OP merely alerting riders to the fact that at some point you will up the pace and you need to know certain things about your motorcycle and what happens to it and you when you go faster. Safety first, plactice plactice plactice... and when i say going faster, it could be 1st and 2nd gear riding and well within the speed limit... it could be going from 50 - 100... it could even be balls out... either way the OP explains what to expect. To me it's educational, to you it's race track lessons WTF??? perhaps you should twist that grip a little harder once in a while... YOU CAN DO IT SAFELY AND STILL STAY WELL WITHIN THE SPEED LIMIT.

Its not about being "within the speed limit" - that figure is an arbitrary number put forward by beaurocrats that may or may not apply to the riders personal level of ability. Its about being within your personal comfort zone of your abilities on the road, AND below the speed limit. (because going above speed limits just creates speed differentials with other traffic that are inherently dangerous).

The idea is that you shoould not go outside of your abilities or even close to them on the road at all. Simple really.

[mashman]

Its not about being "within the speed limit" - that figure is an arbitrary number put forward by beaurocrats that may or may not apply to the riders personal level of ability. Its about being within your personal comfort zone of your abilities on the road, AND below the speed limit. (because going above speed limits just creates speed differentials with other traffic that are inherently dangerous).

The idea is that you shoould not go outside of your abilities or even close to them on the road at all. Simple really.

My context was speed weighted as Katman decided that the OP was about giving people race track lessons for the road... the idea, for me, goes above and beyond the abilities of the rider.

[R-Soul]

My context was speed weighted as Katman decided that the OP was about giving people race track lessons for the road... the idea, for me, goes above and beyond the abilities of the rider.

The OP wanted mentors to put forward suggestions for what to dowhen we push it (regardless of sped). I (and I believe Katman- but still no confirmation there?) am saying that, on the road, you should not be pushing anything at all, unless you are out of fuel. Play it strictly by the book, and ride within your personal comfort zone. Your abilities will expand without having to push anything. And if you want to expand your abilities faster, do it on track. And then even if you have awesome track abilities, STILL ride like a nanna on the road.

[Katman]

The OP wanted mentors to put forward suggestions for what to dowhen we push it (regardless of sped). I (and I believe Katman- but still no confirmation there?) am saying that, on the road, you should not be pushing anything at all, unless you are out of fuel. Play it strictly by the book, and ride within your personal comfort zone. Your abilities will expand without having to push anything. And if you want to expand your abilities faster, do it on track. And then even if you have awesome track abilities, STILL ride like a nanna on the road.

(Just for clarification, I have never said "Never exceed the speed limit").

I completely agree that the road is not the place to be exploring any limits or boundries.

Furthermore, any limits or boundries discovered on the track should only be utilised on the road as a means to get yourself out of danger - not to place yourself in danger.

[mashman]

The OP wanted mentors to put forward suggestions for what to dowhen we push it (regardless of sped). I (and I believe Katman- but still no confirmation there?) am saying that, on the road, you should not be pushing anything at all, unless you are out of fuel. Play it strictly by the book, and ride within your personal comfort zone. Your abilities will expand without having to push anything. And if you want to expand your abilities faster, do it on track. And then even if you have awesome track abilities, STILL ride like a nanna on the road.

You're havin a laugh... Playing it strictly by what book (being legal)? How do you know when you're "pushing it" (what are the symptoms)? Why go to the track to do things faster when i'm already riding under the speed limit, on roads i know, and don't feel like i'm pushing anything?

[mashman]

I completely agree that the road is not the place to be exploring any limits or boundries.


Bullshit. It's the one place you should be finding limits and boundaries, because that's where you learn about the common obstacles, that's where you learn about the road conditions, that's where other road users are in their wildly varied vehicles and mental states...

[Katman]

Bullshit. It's the one place you should be finding limits and boundaries, because that's where you learn about the common obstacles, that's where you learn about the road conditions, that's where other road users are in their wildly varied vehicles and mental states...

Yeah, I suppose - if you want to end up smeared across the grille of a 4x4.

[MSTRS]

For the vast majority of riders, the road is the only place they ride. So realistically, that is where they need to develop their riding skills. For a newbie, just being on the road is putting them well beyond their comfort zone (well, should be anyway). So every moment on the road, they are probably a little beyond what they would really be comfortable with. As their riding progresses, so too will their comfort zone expand to encompass their new abilities. Obviously there comes a time when their abilities match the speed allowed on the road, and should also have developed to the point where the rider can determine whether their speed is appropriate for the road they are on. They should also have developed their hazard awareness skills and learned how to approach/deal with the multitude of shit that is likely to hurt.
Should they wish to further expand their abilities speedwise, and find a new level of comfort zone, they should take it to the track.

[mashman]

Yeah, I suppose - if you want to end up smeared across the grille of a 4x4.

On a daily basis, how often does that happen? What are your chances of that happening?

[R-Soul]

Bullshit. It's the one place you should be finding limits and boundaries, because that's where you learn about the common obstacles, that's where you learn about the road conditions, that's where other road users are in their wildly varied vehicles and mental states...

As soon as you are already close to the limits of your capabilities, and the unexpected happens (it WILL happen) you have less of a buffer, and are that much closer to potential catastrophe, be it death or disablement. As Katman says: You use your abilities toget you out of trouble, not to get you into trouble in the first place.

[R-Soul]

You have a safety buffer associated with:
- the speed you ride
- your abilities
- the manner in which you ride

Every now and then, the unexpected happens. The less buffer you have, the less allowance you have made for the situation, the quicker the situation is going to exceed what buffer you have. Sometimes, it is the riders OWN riding that IS the situation (in fact according to the ACC, most of the time) because they have been pushing their boundaries.

When the buffer is finished, you get sore. On the track you get a little bit sore. On the road you die. Ride to maximise your buffer on the road.

[R-Soul]

On a daily basis, how often does that happen? What are your chances of that happening?

Ask the ACC.

[bogan]

As soon as you are already close to the limits of your capabilities, and the unexpected happens (it WILL happen) you have less of a buffer, and are that much closer to potential catastrophe, be it death or disablement. As Katman says: You use your abilities toget you out of trouble, not to get you into trouble in the first place.

But if you never push it, your abilities may be a lot less than the bikes. It's a difficult position as it's stupid to go riding around pushing it all the time cos as you say, less buffer if the shit hits the fan. But if the shit hits the fan and you don't know what the bike is capable of, you may have a crash that was avoidable to others with sufficient ability. The best option is obviously track/training days, second best would be pushing a bit on a road you know well and have excellent vision and no chance of hitting anyone else.

[Tunahunter]

Well I agree with you bro. I actually did exactly what you warn about.

Maybe you are right. You make valid points. But I stand by my statement - get on the track and do the development, then put it in practice on the road.

A trackday is only a hundred bucks. Do it.


Steve

Tell me about these track days - do you have to belong to a motor cycle club or can you just get in touch with some consultant and jack up a few lessons?

[MSTRS]

Tell me about these track days - do you have to belong to a motor cycle club or can you just get in touch with some consultant and jack up a few lessons?

Hang around other riders and here...you'll soon hear of trackdays coming up. More of a summer thing, tho.

[mashman]

As soon as you are already close to the limits of your capabilities, and the unexpected happens (it WILL happen) you have less of a buffer, and are that much closer to potential catastrophe, be it death or disablement. As Katman says: You use your abilities toget you out of trouble, not to get you into trouble in the first place.


More BULLSHIT. As soon as you twist the throttle and obtain a speed of 10kmh the back can step out and you end up under a truck. I would have thought you would have had some new material by now :shifty:... If there's diesel/much/gravel on the road you're shit out of luck, even at 10kmh... If you mis-judge something, which is all any given fuckup is, the outcome may have nothing to do with skillset whatsoever, you could be travelling at 100 or 50 and still have the same injuries... statistically you're supposed to come off worse the faster you are going, but that's not always the case (and you can't recreate the incident at a quicker or slower speed to prove otherwise). You can't manage everyone else's risk.


Ask the ACC.

I'd actually want a real answer to the question, not one plucked from the ether :)...

[bogan]

More BULLSHIT. As soon as you twist the throttle and obtain a speed of 10kmh the back can step out and you end up under a truck. I would have thought you would have had some new material by now :shifty:... If there's diesel/much/gravel on the road you're shit out of luck, even at 10kmh... If you mis-judge something, which is all any given fuckup is, the outcome may have nothing to do with skillset whatsoever, you could be travelling at 100 or 50 and still have the same injuries... statistically you're supposed to come off worse the faster you are going, but that's not always the case (and you can't recreate the incident at a quicker or slower speed to prove otherwise). You can't manage everyone else's risk.


well if you are going at 10kmhr, you can easily stop in under 5m, one certainly hopes you have more vision than 5m to see if theres any gravel etc coming up. The point about buffers though, if you are going rounds a corner without pushing it and see gravel, you can easily slow to a speed you can safely ride over it, if you are pushing it, you need to slow down more which take longer till you get to a safe speed to ride over the gravel, same goes for things turning across you path.... Though I agree you can't manage others risk, but you can try and educate em!

[Katman]

If there's diesel/much/gravel on the road you're shit out of luck, even at 10kmh...


Fuck me - sounds like you should stick to driving a car.

[Devil]

Tell me about these track days - do you have to belong to a motor cycle club or can you just get in touch with some consultant and jack up a few lessons?

Check the Track Days forum under Meetings and Events.

[Katman]

More BULLSHIT. As soon as you twist the throttle and obtain a speed of 10kmh the back can step out and you end up under a truck. I would have thought you would have had some new material by now :shifty:... If there's diesel/much/gravel on the road you're shit out of luck, even at 10kmh... If you mis-judge something, which is all any given fuckup is, the outcome may have nothing to do with skillset whatsoever, you could be travelling at 100 or 50 and still have the same injuries... statistically you're supposed to come off worse the faster you are going, but that's not always the case (and you can't recreate the incident at a quicker or slower speed to prove otherwise). You can't manage everyone else's risk.


It makes me laugh when I read motorcyclists defending irresponsible riding when, if the discussion was about irresponsible driving, they'd be braying for blood.

Ever heard the saying that starts "Better to remain silent and be thought an idiot............."?

[beyond]

Your first post after my original:


A lot of us don't come on here and wank on about it though.

Your last post so far:

Ever heard the saying that starts "Better to remain silent and be thought an idiot............."?

If you hadn't posted the first post you wouldn't need to have posted the last one and by being silent you would perhaps not be thought of as an .......

Problem is katman, when someone tries to teach others through experience and not theory, for some reason you think it makes them an automatic wanker and away you go.

You live in fools paradise if you think that riders are not going to twist the throttle on the bikes they buy and ride. Of course they are, otherwise the world would be full of people geting there kicks pushing motorised zimmer frames.

Get real and stop putting people down when they try to help others come to grips with potential dangerous situations.

You need to mellow out a bit and start getting your point across in a more constructive less confrontational manner.

[Katman]

Problem is katman, when someone tries to teach others through experience and not theory, for some reason you think it makes them an automatic wanker and away you go.



You're not trying to help people Paul - you're just playing the Pied Piper.

[beyond]

You're not trying to help people Paul - you're just playing the Pied Piper.

You're like the old chesdale cheese add.... "never fails to please" In this case you never fail to counter post and I suppose you never will.

Also, I would think that when I say I am not a pied piper, that I do actually share my experiences to help and not lead astray, you 'll never believe me either so in the end, we will probably always agree to not agree.

[beyond]

Actually Steve, I heard from Sixpackback that you were at Noels get together the other week. I wish I had gone, then we could have met and I'm sure we would have seen eye to eye on a lot of things. I'm not what you make me out to be.

[beyond]

Well, thats just bloody lovely. For the second time I've been red repped in my whole time on KB and it just had to be you again. KB finally gives you the right to give reputation again and all you do is take it away.

You are definitley beyond help you bloody moron. Thanks for the shitty comment in your red rep.

[Katman]

Thanks for the shitty comment in your red rep.

Cry me a river.

[bogan]

Well, thats just bloody lovely. For the second time I've been red repped in my whole time on KB and it just had to be you again. KB finally gives you the right to give reputation again and all you do is take it away.

fuck dude, you must fly under the radar, he's got me twice in the last 2 months :lol: or maybe you just post when he's run out for the day!

[Rogue Rider]

Well, my fellow rider, not sure of your experience level or the validation or credentials you have to back up such expert information...... choke choke......... however in my view, your position and state of mind is echoed through out the young dumb and full of cum mentality that is prevalent on todays roads on 2 wheels.
I have seen oh so many times, young people on learners riding rice rockets capable of speeds excess of 200km/p/hr.... This is like putting a loaded gun in the hands of a 4 year old, and just as destructive.
I have ben riding nearly 30 years, I started on trail bikes, then motorcross and was well learned in riding long before I hit the roads at 15. The trail bikes I road were monsters 2 stroke and 4 strokes and some had insane power bands to thrill and spill.
My advice to any knuckle duster who wishes to whiten his/ her knuckles, buy a trail bike and hit the dirt. I think at least 4 years dirt tracking and learning to handle bikes in slush, mud and sawdust is a pre requisite to any thrill seeking on the roads. We have enough dead novice riders out there upping the statistics and making our lifestyle more and more expensive.....

yes 99% of us are tempted to speed and open up the can of potential....... however, 9% of those bikers refrain the urge and behave in a mature and sensible manner according to the law. ( I do my best, and for the most part succeed. Being thee for my family in the long term is more important than ending up a statistic on NZ roads)

[beyond]

Well, my fellow rider, not sure of your experience level or the validation or credentials you have to back up such expert information...... choke choke......... however in my view, your position and state of mind is echoed through out the young dumb and full of cum mentality that is prevalent on todays roads on 2 wheels.
I have seen oh so many times, young people on learners riding rice rockets capable of speeds excess of 200km/p/hr.... This is like putting a loaded gun in the hands of a 4 year old, and just as destructive.
I have ben riding nearly 30 years, I started on trail bikes, then motorcross and was well learned in riding long before I hit the roads at 15. The trail bikes I road were monsters 2 stroke and 4 strokes and some had insane power bands to thrill and spill.
My advice to any knuckle duster who wishes to whiten his/ her knuckles, buy a trail bike and hit the dirt. I think at least 4 years dirt tracking and learning to handle bikes in slush, mud and sawdust is a pre requisite to any thrill seeking on the roads. We have enough dead novice riders out there upping the statistics and making our lifestyle more and more expensive.....

yes 99% of us are tempted to speed and open up the can of potential....... however, 9% of those bikers refrain the urge and behave in a mature and sensible manner according to the law. ( I do my best, and for the most part succeed. Being thee for my family in the long term is more important than ending up a statistic on NZ roads)

Yep, you're right. I've only been riding for 35 years and have only done several hundred thousand km's on motorbikes starting with high powered two strokes, so I'm not really qualified at all. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll get my coat on the way out.

[mashman]

well if you are going at 10kmhr, you can easily stop in under 5m, one certainly hopes you have more vision than 5m to see if theres any gravel etc coming up. The point about buffers though, if you are going rounds a corner without pushing it and see gravel, you can easily slow to a speed you can safely ride over it, if you are pushing it, you need to slow down more which take longer till you get to a safe speed to ride over the gravel, same goes for things turning across you path.... Though I agree you can't manage others risk, but you can try and educate em!

There's no substitute for PERSONAL experience. whilst all of the theories in the world may well have been proven, until you have to squeeze the brakes that hard, until you hit that patch, until whatever happens, you'll not know what it feels like. That sort of experience can only, truly, be learned on the road, the place where you spend 99.9% of your time. The buffer ideal is great, but it's ultimately flawed as accidents can still occur whilst you're well within your buffer, shit happens... Also everyones buffer will be different, we all have different bikes, with different setups and with VERY different riders... some take tyre temp into consideration, some feel themselves out to see if today is a good day for a blast, some take hundreds of factors into account before they twist the throttle, to make sure they are up to riding at the pace that's been chosen... but that isn't good enough for some. That's all I'd ask of anyone, but I won't ask them not to twist the throttle.

Even at 10kmh it can all go horribly wrong... I've twisted the throttle thinking I was in second, when actually I was in first and smacked myself in the face with the petrol tank (embarrassing yet very funny)... it was a simple accident, I didn't go down, nothing, BUT it could have turned out very differently (I could have pulled to the right and ended up under a car)... you cannot stop an accident from happening.

[mashman]

Fuck me - sounds like you should stick to driving a car.

Sounds like you should open the front door of the bubble and take a little wiff of reality... And i'll pass on the fucking if that's ok... :)



It makes me laugh when I read motorcyclists defending irresponsible riding when, if the discussion was about irresponsible driving, they'd be braying for blood.

Ever heard the saying that starts "Better to remain silent and be thought an idiot............."?


I'm not saying there aren't those that don't just twist and go without thought, without the appropriate gear, without taking EVERYTHING you need to into consideration, but irresponsible riding can take place at 10kmh or 100kmh and isn't restricted to just idiots... remember, your idiocy is someone elses normality, learn to live with it or you're going to be a very disappointed little kitty, because that's what us human beings get up to whilst you're not looking...

I don't mind being thought of as an idiot... stay silent and learn nothing, or say something completely wrong and receive an education... actually sorry for the bum advice above, don't open the bubble, stay nice and cost and safe in there...

[MSTRS]

... you cannot stop an accident from happening.

No, you can't. That's why it's an accident. They are also quite rare.
Crashes on the other hand...

[mashman]

No, you can't. That's why it's an accident. They are also quite rare.
Crashes on the other hand...

:rofl: cheeky bugga... a crash is still an accident unless deemed to be otherwise by the powers that be...

[Katman]

you cannot stop an accident from happening.

So you wouldn't bother to advise your kids that it's not wise to run with those scissors?

Far better to let them learn from experience.

[Milts]

So you wouldn't bother to advise your kids that it's not wise to run with those scissors?

He's using 'accident' in a different sense of the word you muppet.

[T.W.R]

Ditto :yes:

[Katman]

He's using 'accident' in a different sense of the word you muppet.

I think you should read up on the definition of the word 'accident'.

[MSTRS]

:rofl: cheeky bugga... a crash is still an accident unless deemed to be otherwise by the powers that be...

Yea I know.
I have a problem with the terminology though. Accident is the term used, but part of the meaning of that word suggests that it was an unavoidable event. When clearly, in most cases, avoidable was definitely present, at least in the moments directly before the crash.

It may be a subtle thing, but it is one of those PC words that allows participants to say/think things like 'It was an accident. I didn't mean for it to happen. There was nothing I could have done to avoid it. Therefore it wasn't my fault'

[R-Soul]

More BULLSHIT. As soon as you twist the throttle and obtain a speed of 10kmh the back can step out and you end up under a truck. I would have thought you would have had some new material by now :shifty:... If there's diesel/much/gravel on the road you're shit out of luck, even at 10kmh...



Its not only about speed. Its about HOW you are riding. Whether you are pushing the limits. If you have teh throttle wide open, teh chances are higher of your tyre breaking away. The buffer is smaller.

If you are accelerating hard as the road splits to two lanes, and a car pulls in front of you, the buffer is lower. If you are accelarating gently, the buffer is bigger.

No bullshit. Fact.

Yes there will be incidents that will clear any buffer zones you have (like diesel on a corner or whatever).


If you mis-judge something, which is all any given fuckup is, the outcome may have nothing to do with skillset whatsoever, you could be travelling at 100 or 50 and still have the same injuries... statistically you're supposed to come off worse the faster you are going, but that's not always the case (and you can't recreate the incident at a quicker or slower speed to prove otherwise). You can't manage everyone else's risk.

Now who is spouting bullshit. Why do you think you would be more likely to misjudge things? Because you are going too fast or because you are under high G's from acceleration or hard braking? Nobody ever lost control on a corner (outside of external influences like diesel on the road) because they were riding well within their personal comfort zone. Yet according to ACC there seems to be 50% 9rather significant "statistical" number dont you think?) of bike accidents out there that are single vehicle accidents where the rider has lost control all by themself. I suggest that they were ALL pushing their boundaries. Bad idea on the road.

Yes, some low speed accidents do end up being really bad anyways. But lets face it



You can't manage everyone else's risk.
No- only your own. but you do that by being honest about what is affecting your risk in the first place.

[Milts]

I think you should read up on the definition of the word 'accident'.

Given the context of the statement, he was using the word 'accident' to mean 'something unforseable/unnavoidable by the persons involved', in contrast with a 'crash' which could be taken to mean a crash which was aviodable if somebody had taken appropriate precautions. If you can't spot the difference in usage of words there then you're going to have a hard time coming up with a comprehensive argument.

Running with sissors would clearly fall into the second category above because it (should be) a forseeable and avoidable 'crash' as opposed to an unnavoidable 'accident'.

Edit: beaten to it.

[mashman]

So you wouldn't bother to advise your kids that it's not wise to run with those scissors?

Far better to let them learn from experience.

To a certain degree that's exactly what I do... I explain to them why it's best not to run with scissors, but I don't expect them to take my word for anything, because they'll either listen or they won't... Put it this way, i'm prepared for a trip to the hospital should that accident happen.

[mashman]

Yea I know.
I have a problem with the terminology though. Accident is the term used, but part of the meaning of that word suggests that it was an unavoidable event. When clearly, in most cases, avoidable was definitely present, at least in the moments directly before the crash.

It may be a subtle thing, but it is one of those PC words that allows participants to say/think things like 'It was an accident. I didn't mean for it to happen. There was nothing I could have done to avoid it. Therefore it wasn't my fault'

Lol, another bloody word nazi :shifty:... So you didn't mean it to happen, it's an accident? I doubt people go out on their bikes with that aim in mind lol... therefore every crash is an accident unless you're actively going out to crash?

[bogan]

There's no substitute for PERSONAL experience. whilst all of the theories in the world may well have been proven, until you have to squeeze the brakes that hard, until you hit that patch, until whatever happens, you'll not know what it feels like. That sort of experience can only, truly, be learned on the road, the place where you spend 99.9% of your time. The buffer ideal is great, but it's ultimately flawed as accidents can still occur whilst you're well within your buffer, shit happens... Also everyones buffer will be different, we all have different bikes, with different setups and with VERY different riders... some take tyre temp into consideration, some feel themselves out to see if today is a good day for a blast, some take hundreds of factors into account before they twist the throttle, to make sure they are up to riding at the pace that's been chosen... but that isn't good enough for some. That's all I'd ask of anyone, but I won't ask them not to twist the throttle.

Even at 10kmh it can all go horribly wrong... I've twisted the throttle thinking I was in second, when actually I was in first and smacked myself in the face with the petrol tank (embarrassing yet very funny)... it was a simple accident, I didn't go down, nothing, BUT it could have turned out very differently (I could have pulled to the right and ended up under a car)... you cannot stop an accident from happening.

I may be wrong, but most of us don't want to know what it feels like to 'hit that patch' at too great a speed. Of course things can go wrong when you have a buffer, the point of it is they are a lot less likely to. So while you are probably going to want to push it every now and then, which can be beneficial for learning the bikes limits etc, it's a bloody good idea to do it where you are not going to need as big a buffer, well known roads which you know the surface is good and have good vision etc.

And as MSTRS says, a true accident is quite rare, I've had 1, and had another avoidable one, and hundreds of offs on the dirt cos I was pushing it.

[MSTRS]

Lol, another bloody word nazi :shifty:... So you didn't mean it to happen, it's an accident? I doubt people go out on their bikes with that aim in mind lol... therefore every crash is an accident unless you're actively going out to crash?

No. Accident consists of many meanings, including unforeseen and unavoidable. Patently, this is not the case in most crashes. Therefore, although intent does not form part of the event, it is not an accident.

[Katman]

The word 'accident' is defined by the word 'unintentional' - not by the word 'unavoidable'.

As MSTRS has pointed out, there are very few accidents that are unavoidable.

[MSTRS]

The word 'accident' is defined by the word 'unintentional' - not by the word 'unavoidable'..

Your application for membership in the BDOTGNZA is under consideration...

[mashman]

Its not only about speed. Its about HOW you are riding. Whether you are pushing the limits. If you have teh throttle wide open, teh chances are higher of your tyre breaking away. The buffer is smaller.

If you are accelerating hard as the road splits to two lanes, and a car pulls in front of you, the buffer is lower. If you are accelarating gently, the buffer is bigger.

No bullshit. Fact.

Yes there will be incidents that will clear any buffer zones you have (like diesel on a corner or whatever).


The buffer may be smaller, but it's still there and if i'm still within it, according to you and Katman, I should be fine and not have to worry about having an accident... The buffer theory is flawed, in fact flawed to the point where complaicency sets in...



Now who is spouting bullshit. Why do you think you would be more likely to misjudge things? Because you are going too fast or because you are under high G's from acceleration or hard braking? Nobody ever lost control on a corner (outside of external influences like diesel on the road) because they were riding well within their personal comfort zone. Yet according to ACC there seems to be 50% 9rather significant "statistical" number dont you think?) of bike accidents out there that are single vehicle accidents where the rider has lost control all by themself. I suggest that they were ALL pushing their boundaries. Bad idea on the road.


You're quoting BULLSHIT ACC statistics to backup your accusation that i'm spouting bullshit :rofl: argument instantly moot. The difference is, these guys may well have been nowhere near their boundaries/limits/capabilities... it was just the wrong day to go aroundh that corner for the 3496th time...



No- only your own. but you do that by being honest about what is affecting your risk in the first place.


Correct. But your risk and my risk are completely different and we may well take exactly the same things into consideration, this is how futile managing risk is. Be careful (managing risk) ios all that should be asked of anyone, because 1 moments lapse and it could be your last. Doesn't mean it will be, you may just have another squeaky bum moment to add to the collection.

[R-Soul]

He's using 'accident' in a different sense of the word you muppet.

Not really. Both are situations that could have been avoided by more prudent use of good technique and common sense.

[R-Soul]

The buffer may be smaller, but it's still there and if i'm still within it, according to you and Katman, I should be fine and not have to worry about having an accident... The buffer theory is flawed, in fact flawed to the point where complaicency sets in...



You're quoting BULLSHIT ACC statistics to backup your accusation that i'm spouting bullshit :rofl: argument instantly moot. The difference is, these guys may well have been nowhere near their boundaries/limits/capabilities... it was just the wrong day to go aroundh that corner for the 3496th time...



Correct. But your risk and my risk are completely different and we may well take exactly the same things into consideration, this is how futile managing risk is. Be careful (managing risk) ios all that should be asked of anyone, because 1 moments lapse and it could be your last. Doesn't mean it will be, you may just have another squeaky bum moment to add to the collection.


There are none so blind as those who do not want to see.

As I said, the first stage of overcoming your addiction is admitting its a problem.

[mashman]

I may be wrong, but most of us don't want to know what it feels like to 'hit that patch' at too great a speed. Of course things can go wrong when you have a buffer, the point of it is they are a lot less likely to. So while you are probably going to want to push it every now and then, which can be beneficial for learning the bikes limits etc, it's a bloody good idea to do it where you are not going to need as big a buffer, well known roads which you know the surface is good and have good vision etc.

And as MSTRS says, a true accident is quite rare, I've had 1, and had another avoidable one, and hundreds of offs on the dirt cos I was pushing it.

I'm fed up with hearing about let likely, you might, it could, it's highly probable when it comes to accidents/crashes... you have a tiny tiny tiny miniscule probability that you'll crash/have an accident, whatever it is on a given day on roads that you know etc... but you will always have a 50 - 50 chance that somewhere during that day you're going to have an accident/crash etc... it could be at 50, it could be at 150...

[Katman]

I'm fed up with hearing about let likely, you might, it could, it's highly probable when it comes to accidents/crashes... you have a tiny tiny tiny miniscule probability that you'll crash/have an accident, whatever it is on a given day on roads that you know etc... but you will always have a 50 - 50 chance that somewhere during that day you're going to have an accident/crash etc... it could be at 50, it could be at 150...

Fuck man, you don't even make any sense!

[bogan]

I'm fed up with hearing about let likely, you might, it could, it's highly probable when it comes to accidents/crashes... you have a tiny tiny tiny miniscule probability that you'll crash/have an accident, whatever it is on a given day on roads that you know etc... but you will always have a 50 - 50 chance that somewhere during that day you're going to have an accident/crash etc... it could be at 50, it could be at 150...

Less likely to crash is exactly what being discussed here, the warning for when you up the pace was meant to be heeded and make you less likely to crash if you do up the pace. If you're fed up with it, then don't come into threads about safer riding! the chance of having an accident might be minuscule, but half of minuscule is still half as likely. I have no idea of what you mean by the last bit, riders with a 50-50 chance of an accident per day, will not stay riding for long.

[mashman]

There are none so blind as those who do not want to see.

As I said, the first stage of overcoming your addiction is admitting its a problem.

:rofl: if I was you, i'd be removing those rose tinted specs... I see completely, understand fully and to a certain extent apply the attitude that you and Katman are talking about whilst i ride... however, you guys refuse to accept that once in a while we stay within our buffer and still fuck up. You're talking about the majority of accidents and crashes that haven't been quantified in terms of fuckupability... all we hear is, if you had been going at 100 instead of 110 you wouldn't have to get a new bike, or leg, or eye... what about those other 3964 times that corner has been taken without incident? do you and Katman take that into account? Why?

[mashman]

Fuck man, you don't even make any sense!

fuck off then

[R-Soul]

I'm fed up with hearing about let likely, you might, it could, it's highly probable when it comes to accidents/crashes... you have a tiny tiny tiny miniscule probability that you'll crash/have an accident, whatever it is on a given day on roads that you know etc... but you will always have a 50 - 50 chance that somewhere during that day you're going to have an accident/crash etc... it could be at 50, it could be at 150...


You try and sweep away our common sense with broad generalisations. You try to convince us that its because its too hard to think like that all the time. Or thats its too tiring. Or because you are too dumb (dont worry we know you arent). Any excuse will do.

But actually its because you cant wait for your next "fix".

All we ar saying is that you should rather get it on the track.

Besides, when you do, it overshadows the road fix by so much, that the road fix seems negligible by comparison, and you dont even bother about it anymore.

[R-Soul]

:rofl: if I was you, i'd be removing those rose tinted specs... I see completely, understand fully and to a certain extent apply the attitude that you and Katman are talking about whilst i ride... however, you guys refuse to accept that once in a while we stay within our buffer and still fuck up. You're talking about the majority of accidents and crashes that haven't been quantified in terms of fuckupability... all we hear is, if you had been going at 100 instead of 110 you wouldn't have to get a new bike, or leg, or eye... what about those other 3964 times that corner has been taken without incident? do you and Katman take that into account? Why?

So because 2 in 100 accidents cant be helped, and will nail you regardless of your caution, now we mus throw our hands in the air, say "what the fuck, it cannot be helped" and ride like we stole it? Rather a defeatist attitude if you ask me.
That seems to rely waaay too much on fate for my liking. Clearly you dont have kids.

[mashman]

Less likely to crash is exactly what being discussed here, the warning for when you up the pace was meant to be heeded and make you less likely to crash if you do up the pace. If you're fed up with it, then don't come into threads about safer riding! the chance of having an accident might be minuscule, but half of minuscule is still half as likely. I have no idea of what you mean by the last bit, riders with a 50-50 chance of an accident per day, will not stay riding for long.

I can fall off the step at home and kill myself, so let's be real here. I have a 50 - 50 chance of crashing my bike on a corner that I have ridden several thousand times, so my probability of crashing on that corner at my current speed is pretty low. Yet there is still a chance that it can happen, it happens or it doesn't. The 1 time that I come off could be my fault, but statistically and from my perspective knowing my riding and my abilities it's not likely to happen, yet i still have a 50 -50 chance of it happening and fully accept that FACT.

The OP should be an Ad on TV, which is how this latest charade started, I agree, whole heartedly, with what he's saying, but that does not mean I am advocating using the road like a race track and does not read like a racing manual...

[mashman]

You try and sweep away our common sense with broad generalisations. You try to convince us that its because its too hard to think like that all the time. Or thats its too tiring. Or because you are too dumb (dont worry we know you arent). Any excuse will do.

But actually its because you cant wait for your next "fix".

All we ar saying is that you should rather get it on the track.

Besides, when you do, it overshadows the road fix by so much, that the road fix seems negligible by comparison, and you dont even bother about it anymore.

Not at all. I'm being realistic. It can take a momentary distraction that leads to a persons undoing and that may well have nothing to do with any lack of common sense, the amount of thought that is being put into the activity you're undertaking or the amount of pressure being exerted through your right hand... It may or may not happen is all i'm saying, something you and Katman seem hell bent on disproving. Yes people fuck up when they don't mean to, when there's no other reason for it other than they got it wrong... but that's all it is SOME OF THE TIME, someone learning their lesson by getting something wrong... I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt, seeing what's happened as an accident with nothing to blame other than, today it happened differently than to how it normally happens... we don't all go out, find roads that we don't know and pin the throttle...

[mashman]

So because 2 in 100 accidents cant be helped, and will nail you regardless of your caution, now we mus throw our hands in the air, say "what the fuck, it cannot be helped" and ride like we stole it? Rather a defeatist attitude if you ask me.
That seems to rely waaay too much on fate for my liking. Clearly you dont have kids.

Yes. It can't be helped because it's happened. Get over it, move on, let's hope someone learns their lesson. You can still have an accident/crash without riding like you stole it as i've been mentioning across my posts... Not defeatist, realist...
:rofl: I was wondering if you and KM where fatalists whilst typing that post lol, didn't realise it had come across... It might be fate, it might not, dunno, don't believe in it, can't disregard it... I have 4 kids ta :)

[onearmedbandit]

What's this '50-50' chance of falling off in a corner thing? Should I read that as I see it, or is the relevance buried somewhere deep inside the thread? If I had a 50-50 chance of falling off on a corner I'd give up riding.

[mashman]

What's this '50-50' chance of falling off in a corner thing? Should I read that as I see it, or is the relevance buried somewhere deep inside the thread? If I had a 50-50 chance of falling off on a corner I'd give up riding.

You have a 50 - 50 chance of having an accident in my book, on a corner, on a straight. If there's a nail in the corner that you don't see you have a 50 - 50 chance of hitting it and blowing out and killing yourself. That's where i'm coming from. It doesn't mean it will happen, but you can't rule it out... that's what I mean, that's what I have accepted and of course I ride to mitigate the PROBABILITY... but i will always have a 50 - 50 chance of fucking up. Simple as me.

[Swoop]

I completely agree that the road is not the place to be exploring any limits or boundries.
So, you are against driver/rider training? This all happens on the roads.

[Katman]

So, you are against driver/rider training? This all happens on the roads.

You know exactly what I mean by limits and boundries.

[onearmedbandit]

You have a 50 - 50 chance of having an accident in my book, on a corner, on a straight. If there's a nail in the corner that you don't see you have a 50 - 50 chance of hitting it and blowing out and killing yourself. That's where i'm coming from. It doesn't mean it will happen, but you can't rule it out... that's what I mean, that's what I have accepted and of course I ride to mitigate the PROBABILITY... but i will always have a 50 - 50 chance of fucking up. Simple as me.

If the nail took up half the road and had spikes all over it, I'd almost agree with you. But they don't, on both accounts. So the chances of hitting that nail are far less then 50-50, taking into account it's actual size in relation to the road, it's actual ability to puncture your tyre, and any avoidance measures you employ, I'd wager the chances of coming off in that corner as being .000001-99.999999.

[bogan]

I can fall off the step at home and kill myself, so let's be real here. I have a 50 - 50 chance of crashing my bike on a corner that I have ridden several thousand times, so my probability of crashing on that corner at my current speed is pretty low. Yet there is still a chance that it can happen, it happens or it doesn't. The 1 time that I come off could be my fault, but statistically and from my perspective knowing my riding and my abilities it's not likely to happen, yet i still have a 50 -50 chance of it happening and fully accept that FACT.

The OP should be an Ad on TV, which is how this latest charade started, I agree, whole heartedly, with what he's saying, but that does not mean I am advocating using the road like a race track and does not read like a racing manual...

you don't understand prababilities do you, 50-50 means you have a 50% chance of crashing on a corner, which statistically means if you go round it 100 times, you will fall off about 50 times, so fuck knows how you have got round it thousands of times so far! and yeh you can get hit by a meteor and killed too, but you're a lot less likely to die that way then from cocking it up on the road, as you are a lot less likely to cock it up on the road if you don't ride at your limit, also you are a lot less likely to be killed on the road if you know you and your bikes realistic limits.

[onearmedbandit]

Yes I think he might be confusing it for 'you're either upright or on your arse'.

[bogan]

even so, a binary outcome in no way equates to a 50-50 chance

[MSTRS]

Maybe he means either you will or you won't crash. That's 50/50.
But also totally unrealistic.

[onearmedbandit]

even so, a binary outcome in no way equates to a 50-50 chance

Oh I agree, as per my post above.

[bogan]

Maybe he means either you will or you won't crash. That's 50/50.
But also totally unrealistic.

no it's not, 50-50 means equal chance, ie a coin toss, a corner i go round every day has a 1000000/1 (number in this sort of vicinity) chance of staying upright to crashing, still only two outcomes though

[avgas]

even so, a binary outcome in no way equates to a 50-50 chance
Depends entirely on the system. Using mashman's "windowing" of things that could happen, 50-50 is no impossible.
Tis the great contrast of 'probability' and 'possibility'

[imdying]

You have a 50 - 50 chance of having an accident in my book, on a corner, on a straight. If there's a nail in the corner that you don't see you have a 50 - 50 chance of hitting it and blowing out and killing yourself. That's where i'm coming from. It doesn't mean it will happen, but you can't rule it out... that's what I mean, that's what I have accepted and of course I ride to mitigate the PROBABILITY... but i will always have a 50 - 50 chance of fucking up. Simple as me.WTF? They must have magical fire and forget heat sinking Ground To Aprilia nail missiles where you live :rofl:

Stop pulling numbers out of your arse, it makes you look like a muppet.

/edit: Yes yes, one L

[MSTRS]

no it's not, 50-50 means equal chance, ie a coin toss, a corner i go round every day has a 1000000/1 (number in this sort of vicinity) chance of staying upright to crashing, still only two outcomes though

Yes, it is right. At least as I put it...
Like your coin toss....if you flip it twice, there is an equal chance of either side coming up once.
I never said it was likely tho

[bogan]

Depends entirely on the system. Using mashman's "windowing" of things that could happen, 50-50 is no impossible.
Tis the great contrast of 'probability' and 'possibility'

true, i spose what I'm saying is you can't just window out shit to get the numbers you want (unless you are nick smith apparently)


WTF? They must have magical fire and forget heat sinking Ground To Aprillia nail missiles where you live :rofl:

Stop pulling numbers out of your arse, it makes you look like a muppet.

:lol: yeh that about sums it up

[avgas]

The word 'accident' is defined by the word 'unintentional' - not by the word 'unavoidable'.
As MSTRS has pointed out, there are very few accidents that are unavoidable.
A wise person said to me once. There are no accidents, just failures to understand the potential of failing.
Seems we are content with a small percentage of failure - and that is what makes us human.

[Quasievil]

Good thread.........well it was before semantics stepped in

[bogan]

Yes, it is right. At least as I put it...
Like your coin toss....if you flip it twice, there is an equal chance of either side coming up once.
I never said it was likely tho

ok now I see what you mean i think, if the sampling is based on events chosen to skew the data then yeh, you can get a 50-50 chance. I'd be hanging up my helmet if those were my chances though!

[avgas]

true, i spose what I'm saying is you can't just window out shit to get the numbers you want (unless you are nick smith apparently)
Exactly - stats / figures / facts / possibilities / probabilities..... all need to be considered separate entities. To join them can get you looking in the wrong direction.
e.g.

Probability of 50% decrease in wild cats in Auckland
Possibility of 10% increase in asian takeaways in Auckland
Cats have 2 kittens a year

can these quotes be combined. Ask Nick

[mashman]

If the nail took up half the road and had spikes all over it, I'd almost agree with you. But they don't, on both accounts. So the chances of hitting that nail are far less then 50-50, taking into account it's actual size in relation to the road, it's actual ability to puncture your tyre, and any avoidance measures you employ, I'd wager the chances of coming off in that corner as being .000001-99.999999.

Thems is spiker strips :shifty: For me, you're talking about the probability of hitting the nail... for me chance has 2 outcomes, you hit the nail or you don't.

[mashman]

you don't understand prababilities do you, 50-50 means you have a 50% chance of crashing on a corner, which statistically means if you go round it 100 times, you will fall off about 50 times, so fuck knows how you have got round it thousands of times so far! and yeh you can get hit by a meteor and killed too, but you're a lot less likely to die that way then from cocking it up on the road, as you are a lot less likely to cock it up on the road if you don't ride at your limit, also you are a lot less likely to be killed on the road if you know you and your bikes realistic limits.

Not in my definition. What is the probability of me hitting a 6 on a dice, 1 in 6, the chances of me getting a 6 are 50 - 50. That's how I look at it.

[bogan]

Not in my definition. What is the probability of me hitting a 6 on a dice, 1 in 6, the chances of me getting a 6 are 50 - 50. That's how I look at it.

now you're just trying to fuck with us right?

[mashman]

WTF? They must have magical fire and forget heat sinking Ground To Aprilia nail missiles where you live :rofl:

Stop pulling numbers out of your arse, it makes you look like a muppet.

/edit: Yes yes, one L

Where's my red :shifty:... That's how I look at things.

I can't stop the number 2's though :)

[mashman]

now you're just trying to fuck with us right?

Nope. That's how I see it. You either hit the 6 or you don't, that to me is chance.

[imdying]

now you're just trying to fuck with us right?Surely?!? :confused:

[bogan]

Nope. That's how I see it. You either hit the 6 or you don't, that to me is chance.

:lol: ok i'll bite. You either hit the 6, or the 1, or the 2,3,4,5. 50-50 is just another way of saying 1 in 2, dice is 1 in 6.

[Katman]

Good thread.........well it was before semantics stepped in

Was that before or after post #2.

:confused:

[mashman]

:lol: ok i'll bite. You either hit the 6, or the 1, or the 2,3,4,5. 50-50 is just another way of saying 1 in 2, dice is 1 in 6.

Yes, that's how I see it. The probability of hitting a 6 is 1 in 6, i have a 50 - 50 chance that i hit the 6

[bogan]

Yes, that's how I see it. The probability of hitting a 6 is 1 in 6, i have a 50 - 50 chance that i hit the 6

now substitute "1 in 2" instead of "50-50" and read that back

[imdying]

now substitute "1 in 2" instead of "50-50" and read that backHow dare you use logic on the interwebz! That's a red rep! :angry:

[Quasievil]

................unsubscribe.................

[bogan]

How dare you use logic on the interwebz! That's a red rep! :angry:

:lol: my bad, waiting for shitty xp sp3 to download so I can get back to work, so I got to find something to do to amuse myself!

[bogan]

................unsubscribe.................

pfft, if it hasn't been said in the first 20 pages, it prolly isn't worth saying :bye:

[MSTRS]

pfft, if it hasn't been said in the first 20 pages, it prolly isn't worth saying :bye:

No noo...don't stop. This thread has only started to scratch the surface of all subjects known to man...

[bogan]

No noo...don't stop. This thread has only started to scratch the surface of all subjects known to man...

sounds like you want to get it merged with the scottish thread?

[avgas]

................unsubscribe.................
211758..................

[MSTRS]

sounds like you want to get it merged with the scottish thread?

Definitely not. That thread has a single subject...whilst this thread has ... possibilities

[R-Soul]

Yes. It can't be helped because it's happened. Get over it, move on, let's hope someone learns their lesson. You can still have an accident/crash without riding like you stole it as i've been mentioning across my posts... Not defeatist, realist...
:rofl: I was wondering if you and KM where fatalists whilst typing that post lol, didn't realise it had come across... It might be fate, it might not, dunno, don't believe in it, can't disregard it... I have 4 kids ta :)


4 kids??? You must be a fatalist!! just kidding - I (will) have 3 soon...

I am not saying that there are no accidents that will wipe you out regardless of what caution you excercise. But there are plenty that will happen, or could be avoided but arent, because of your lack of caution.

What about the 98 out of a 100 accidents that WILL be happening soon (maybe at a street near you) that ARE avoidable? They have not happened yet. There is still something you CAN DO about them. Throwing your hands up, placing your life in fates hands, and relying on chance that those accidenst will happen when you aren't too compromised seems like a fatalist thing to do.



And teh road is not a place for lack of caution. Too many unforeseen variables that can bite your ass when you are most compromised.

[R-Soul]

Not in my definition. What is the probability of me hitting a 6 on a dice, 1 in 6, the chances of me getting a 6 are 50 - 50. That's how I look at it.

Alright, just dont give up your day job for being an actuary or statistician see?

Yes there are two outcomes of a nail being in the road. But if you are going around the corner at close to your max speed, and have no buffer that allows for changling your line, then EVEN if you spot the thing, you can do nothing about it. This means your chances (i.e. probability) of hitting it are increased compared to if you are going slow enough to spot it and take urgent manouvering action to avoid it.

The bigger your buffer, the better your chances of avoiding most of the accidents that are avoidable. Clearly if you are riding slowly in your lane through a gorge, and a piano fall out of a blue sky and wallops you, that is unavoidable. Although you might still slide less, and not go over a steep cliff... Lets face it, the less energy and forces being used, the less the chance of those forces being reacted back on your ass.

[Movistar]

Who dug this out of the depths of the matrix...a Mr Soul I believe?

All this thread needs now is some of Beyonds youtube videos :corn:

[beyond]

Lol, the vids are still on youtube and on vimeo ( the ones where youtube dumped the nice music backing tracks )

[bogan]

Lol, the vids are still on youtube and on vimeo ( the ones where youtube dumped the nice music backing tracks )

bastiges got me with that too, was in background to engine noise too and they still managed to pick em out! here is link though it is a dirtbiking vid, mstrs did want a topic change...