It is all our fault

[Mom]

This makes an interesting read.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10597333

[jono035]

This makes an interesting read.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10597333

"motorbikes and scooters" is the key phrase from that report in terms of city accidents. I'm not surprised given the number of people on scooters I see charging down symonds st on the wrong side of the road or just generally weaving randomly through moving traffic...

I do wonder how accurate some of those decisions on who was at fault are though.

[Latte]

Anyone notice it's ~70% - of 20ish crashes per year.

I'd like to see the comparable car v car , or even car v bus numbers for the same years.

Harold strikes again......

[short-circuit]

I detect sarcasm in the thread title - "It's ALL our fault"

I also detect a sense of us an them "It's all OUR fault"



My take on it is that motorcycling requires more concentration/control/skill etc

I don't see why statistically the proportion of skilled operators vs retards would be any higher in the motorcycling population than the driving population.

The consequences for making a mistake are significantly higher for the motorcyclist than the driver


Hence reason for the statistical discrepancy

[jono035]

Anyone notice it's ~70% - of 20ish crashes per year.

I'd like to see the comparable car v car , or even car v bus numbers for the same years.

Harold strikes again......

Yeah, but I remember seeing statistics somewhere saying that scooters/motorcycles were much more likely to get into an accident within the same number of kms travelled which would suggest that we crash more often and are at fault more often than someone else driving a car.

I think it's probably to do with the fact that riding is a passion/enjoyment for most motorcyclists whereas driving is something that has to be done (possibly while eating pies, applying makeup, shaving, texting etc.) in order to get where you want to go. At least that coupled with the mid-life-crisis biker theory, anyway.

[Oscar]

Anyone notice it's ~70% - of 20ish crashes per year.

I'd like to see the comparable car v car , or even car v bus numbers for the same years.

Harold strikes again......

???
In car versus car it's gonna be a car at fault...

[unrealone]

Yep, statistics..........................from the ACC. As if I'll believe it.

[dipshit]

Which is why i have been saying that BRONZ are doing more harm than good with their "it's mostly the car drivers fault" bullshit head up their arse approach.

When the general public find out that is not the case... they are going to realise that motorcyclists are a bunch of whingeing hypocrites.

[Katman]

Yep, statistics..........................from the ACC. As if I'll believe it.

Trouble is, it doesn't much matter whether you believe it.

It's whether those who have the power to legislate us off the road believe it, that matters.

[firefighter]

Fuck the scooters off the list.

Not really fair to include them as well, really, they generally don't wear ANY gear other than the bare minimum helmet, shorts, T-shirt and jandles/running shoes.......

It's like saying that people on 4 wheeler farm bikes have four wheels so they should be included in car statistics.....

[dipshit]

Fuck the scooters off the list.

It doesn't really matter what you want to ignore. NZ transport figures have some pretty ugly figures. 500 cc bikes and over feature very highly. Around 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents were the fault of the rider.

[short-circuit]

Fuck the scooters off the list.

Not really fair to include them as well, really, they generally don't wear ANY gear other than the bare minimum helmet, shorts, T-shirt and jandles/running shoes.......

It's like saying that people on 4 wheeler farm bikes have four wheels so they should be included in car statistics.....

Yeah so Scooter riders may/may not wear ATGATT, but they ain't as likely to have one wheel in the air, or be travelling with quite the same sort of velocity as bikers

Again your statement seems driven out of an us and them position - not helpful if trying to establish objective facts, trends and statistics

[firefighter]

It doesn't really matter what you want to ignore. NZ transport figures have some pretty ugly figures. 500 cc bikes and over feature very highly. Around 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents were the fault of the rider.

Yeah thanks mate I can read. <_<

[firefighter]

Again your statement seems driven out of an us and them position -

This is my first input into this topic. 'Again' nothing sweetie.

My point has been missed.

I'm saying scooters and motorcyles are different kettles of fish, they may as well include mopeds and boats.


not helpful if trying to establish objective facts, trends and statistics

No, adding an un-related group into a statistic is'nt helpful.

[short-circuit]

This is my first input into this topic. Again nothing sweetie.

My point has been missed.

I'm saying scooters and motorcyles are different kettles of fish, they may as well include mopeds and boats.

Whether you like it or not, scooters are classified as motor(bi)cycles sweetie, and they are subject to the same licence conditions as us

[firefighter]

Whether you like it or not, scooters are classified as motor(bi)cycles sweetie, and they are subject to the same licence conditions as us

They have been added to make us sound worse, and raise the statistics.

[short-circuit]

They have been added to make us sound worse, and raise the statistics.

"We" (bikers) ain't special my friend. Heaps of retards ride motorcycles too you know...and that's my point.



When it goes wrong for "us" (and this includes scooter riders) the consequences are major.

Hence the statistics

[jaymzw]

Interesting statistics. I read in the Harold yesterday there were 4 fatalities on NZ roads over the weekend. 3 were motorcyclists. Says it all really.

Mom, i heard there was one up your way in the dome valley which was pretty bad.

[MSTRS]

Whether you like it or not, scooters are classified as motor(bi)cycles sweetie, and they are subject to the same licence conditions as us

Not quite. How many scooter riders have Class 6 licences?

[firefighter]

"We" (bikers) ain't special my friend. Heaps of retards ride motorcycles too you know...and that's my point.



When it goes wrong for "us" (and this includes scooter riders) the consequences are major.

Hence the statistics

In that case, mopeds should be in there too. Because they have two wheels, and the consequences of an accident can also be major.

Really, the statistics for scooters, saying I agree with you, should only be added for the scooters with the engine capacity where your required a bike licence to ride them-this I agree with.

Some stupid office bitch on a CAR licence riding a 50cc scooter in her skirt and half helmet, is not in the same category.

[Latte]

???
In car versus car it's gonna be a car at fault...

I just meant that 70% of ~20 crashes is three fifths of my riding ability (F*** all). And those figures aren't serious/fatal accidents, they are all accidents. that equates to less than 1 accident a fortnight in Auckland City involving a Bike.

I think the article is making it sound worse than it is, that's all.

[short-circuit]

Some stupid office bitch on a CAR licence riding a 50cc scooter in her skirt and half helmet, is not in the same category.

I'd like to suggest that she has less chance of a fatality type accident than your average 18 year old on his first "big bike" or a "returning" rider.

[Winston001]

Yeah, but I remember seeing statistics somewhere saying that scooters/motorcycles were much more likely to get into an accident within the same number of kms travelled which would suggest that we crash more often and are at fault more often than someone else driving a car.


Simple really - in the world of physics 4 wheels good, 2 wheels bad.

In a cage you can make a small error and with 4 rubber feet you can avoid an accident. Or the accident is so slight it isn't reported.

On a bike/scooter/moped you can keep up with the traffic but only have 2 rubber feet plus no protective cage around you. So a minor error can result in major consequences.

What we do is risky. Fun. But risky.

[riffer]

Sorry guys, there's not really a lot I disagree with in the article.

Perhaps they could have explained that, in relation to the increase in motorcycle registrations, the accidents haven't gone up exactly in step, but the point is, they're going up. The weekend's toll doesn't look good.

Like it or not, scooters are motorcycles. It behooves us to educate scooter riders just as much as BABs. As for the unlicensed, that's a problem unfortunately most likely sorted by more vigilant policing. And the end result of that is less freedoms for us, the responsible (well mostly).

Rather than attack the messenger, we would be best to look at how we can change their attitude towards us, before they utilise legislative measures to "fix" the problem.

[Fatt Max]

I note that the stats relate to 'older' riders, such as myself.

The reason we have to go so fast is that we always need the toilet....so fuck off stats people, we need to pee.....doesnt help when you are a fat bastard like me and have 40kg of gristle resting on your bladder as well...

Dont get me started on 'poo near misses' either..

[dipshit]

Interesting statistics. I read in the Harold yesterday there were 4 fatalities on NZ roads over the weekend. 3 were motorcyclists. Says it all really.

Get used to it. That will be a common theme in Monday morning papers over summer.

[The Pastor]

And of the last three fatal crashes involving motorcycles in the city, two were the result of a speeding rider, either unlicensed or on a learner license,

so one accident was non rider fault, one was due to speeding, and one guy did not have a full license.

Hardly anything to draw any conclusions or trends from.

[firefighter]

I'd like to suggest that she has less chance of a fatality type accident than your average 18 year old on his first "big bike" or a "returning" rider.

So do I when i'm on my fourth wank of the day.

Does'nt mean it's the same category.

[short-circuit]

So do I when i'm on my fourth wank of the day.

Does'nt mean it's the same category.

What you do in the toilet is fine by me - just make sure you clean up after yourself.

As for point two, no matter how much you dislike it, the office lady on the 50cc scooter is a motorcyclist too

[rainman]

"motorbikes and scooters" is the key phrase from that report in terms of city accidents. I'm not surprised given the number of people on scooters I see charging down symonds st on the wrong side of the road or just generally weaving randomly through moving traffic...


Scooters don't do "300-plus".




My take on it is that motorcycling requires more concentration/control/skill etc

I don't see why statistically the proportion of skilled operators vs retards would be any higher in the motorcycling population than the driving population.

The consequences for making a mistake are significantly higher for the motorcyclist than the driver



I'll add one: The consequences of the outcome of a bin being nasty go up with speed. Physics 101. (OK, well, some biology too, but you know what I mean).


What we do is risky. Fun. But risky.

That's fundamentally the point IMHO. A lot of riders seem irrationally addicted to the risk.


Modern bike tech allows greater speed and acceleration.
Modern gear is better (but only for slower speed bins?)
Human reflexes aren't getting much better.
For BABs they're getting worse.
Roads are a bit better I expect, but there are still threats like gravel, cow shit, dead possums, other vehicles...
In fact there's more vehicles and more people driving and riding stupidly.


Equals "unsafe at speed".

What will it take for people to figure out when enough speed is enough? If you have a bike that can do 300 km/h (why FFS?), can you still enjoy riding while doing, say, 120 max?

Or are we biologically incapable of understanding this?

[jono035]

As for point two, no matter how much you dislike it, the office lady on the 50cc scooter is a motorcyclist too

But someone who is riding a scooter out of convenience/economics rather than someone who enjoys it.

You don't get good at driving/riding by merely clocking up the kms, you have to be constantly adjusting, recognising what you could have done better, constantly thinking 'what if'.

This is just an observation I have made over the years, if you don't enjoy doing something, you rarely become 'good' at it.

[firefighter]

What you do in the toilet is fine by me - just make sure you clean up after yourself.

In the toilet!? Hell no on the couch, when your finished you can write your name on the wall....:devil2:


As for point two, no matter how much you dislike it, the office lady on the 50cc scooter is a motorcyclist too

I will never, ever, ever agree, that a little scooterist on a baby scooter, is a motorcyclist. No way, no how.

On a 250cc+ scooter, maybe. But not quite.:oi-grr:

[cheshirecat]

There's stats and stats re who's at fault.

Most common numbers are these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPrlYU_n14s) (see at end)

And Noway's a safe (relative) place to drive

[Edbear]

In that case, mopeds should be in there too. Because they have two wheels, and the consequences of an accident can also be major.

Really, the statistics for scooters, saying I agree with you, should only be added for the scooters with the engine capacity where your required a bike licence to ride them-this I agree with.

Some stupid office bitch on a CAR licence riding a 50cc scooter in her skirt and half helmet, is not in the same category.

She's not the one having the accidents, though...

[firefighter]

She's not the one having the accidents, though...

Still, and I say it again for the fifth time.

That's not the point.

Besides, if you read the actual chart it shows the scooters are up there with the bikes......so yes she is........Just not as many.

* Vehicles at fault

(crashes involving motorcycles in Auckland City):

2004: 6 scooter, 7 motorcycle - 69 per cent

2005: 4 scooter, 12 motorcycle - 76 per cent

2006: 8 scooter, 12 motorcycle - 74 per cent

2007: 8 scooter, 14 motorcycle - 69 per cent

2008: 9 scooter, 16 motorcycle - 61 per cent

[Fatjim]

I'd like to take up knitting instead but I hear the stats there aren't too good either.

[Conquiztador]

The only thing you can do individually is make sure that you are not part of this statistic. Apart from that...

[dipshit]

Most common numbers are these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPrlYU_n14s) (see at end)

Only when you listen to motorcycle organisations that tell you bullshit and half-truths.

[vgcspares]

strangely enough I'd concur with others that the Police's stats are not representative - I spend enough time chasing car drivers at fault to know in a car vs bike scenario it is not 70% at the door of born again motorcyclists

indeed the "born again" bit is now getting a bit tired as most of them have now built back up their skills (bearing in mind we're talking about people who were teenagers in the 60's & 70's, any of whom who were going to come back to biking have already done so)

[cheshirecat]

strangely enough I'd concur with others that the Police's stats are not representative - I spend enough time chasing car drivers at fault to know in a car vs bike scenario it is not 70% at the door of born again motorcyclists

indeed the "born again" bit is now getting a bit tired as most of them have now built back up their skills (bearing in mind we're talking about people who were teenagers in the 60's & 70's, any of whom who were going to come back to biking have already done so)

Agree. As a born again myself it did take a bit of time but no more so then getting used to another bike. Much of it was relief tyres and brakes actually work in the wet and the beastie went round bumpy corners without the frame turning to jelly - oh and taking a coupe of hours initially to find the rear spark plugs and get them out

[Latte]

indeed the "born again" bit is now getting a bit tired as most of them have now built back up their skills (bearing in mind we're talking about people who were teenagers in the 60's & 70's, any of whom who were going to come back to biking have already done so)

Is there a time limit to being a born again? Surely as the current ones move on, there a new ones to take their place. Same with squids and learners etc. I may have the wrong read on it.

[slofox]

I think its significant that although the percentages are high, the actual numbers are quite low - lower than I would have expected, given the numbers out there.

So in reality, most of the bikes/scooters on these roads are NOT having accidents. Which is reassuring.

[oldrider]

4 wheeler farm bikes have four wheels so they should be included in car statistics.....

Are these included with "motorcycle" statistics? (they are not motorcycles)

Or are they separated from road crash statistics along with other "farm bikes"?

I agree with others who doubt statistical ACC information!

[dipshit]

I think its significant that although the percentages are high, the actual numbers are quite low - lower than I would have expected, given the numbers out there.

So in reality, most of the bikes/scooters on these roads are NOT having accidents. Which is reassuring.

Except two things.

1: It is still a higher percentage than what the car drivers are having.

2: The majority of more serious injury and fatal accidents were the fault of the rider.

[Danae]

I notice he mentioned that car drivers need to look out for motorcyclists, but we need a bit more than just a sentence or two in an article.

[dipshit]

I notice he mentioned that car drivers need to look out for motorcyclists, but we need a bit more than just a sentence or two in an article.

He's just parroting BRONZ bullshit. It's not the real problem.

[vgcspares]

Is there a time limit to being a born again? Surely as the current ones move on, there a new ones to take their place. Same with squids and learners etc. I may have the wrong read on it.

I'm coming from the belief that the boom years of motorcycling were the 60s & 70s in absolute numbers terms, so it's a bit like the baby-boom after WWII - there's a tidal swell that's probably comiing back down to a more normal level

[firefighter]

Or are they separated from road crash statistics along with other "farm bikes"?

Actually, they usually are.

[madbikeboy]

So, have any of you actually done the math on this?

In 2004, 7 motorcycles crashed in Auckland. Next question - in 2004 I can recall seeing how many cars my mate had in panel shop at any one time. More than 10, I can assure you.

In 2008, 16 motorcycles crashed in Auckland. Again, I drove past my mates panel shop this morning, and I'm assuming he doesn't have the only panel shop in Auckland, and all the cars that are going to crash have crashed already, and all of that business went to his shop.

You see my point.

The increase from 7 to 16 is a huge number from a raw percentage point of view, but if you were to view it in context of the wider car crashes, it looks less bad.

The numbers have disproportionate weighting.

Take a look at the number of people hurt mountain biking, horse riding, or playing rugby...


(crashes involving motorcycles in Auckland City):

2004: 6 scooter, 7 motorcycle - 69 per cent

2005: 4 scooter, 12 motorcycle - 76 per cent

2006: 8 scooter, 12 motorcycle - 74 per cent

2007: 8 scooter, 14 motorcycle - 69 per cent

2008: 9 scooter, 16 motorcycle - 61 per cent

[NighthawkNZ]

This makes an interesting read.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10597333


Not in this case....


A south Auckland motorcyclist killed as he rode home from a Northland funeral at the weekend was the victim of two teenaged drivers racing each other, say police.

Asa Le Grande Te Kare, 43, died when his motorcycle was hit by one of two cars racing north on State Highway 1 just south of Warkworth about 7pm on Saturday.

Police said witnesses have told them two cars were racing north when one of the drivers lost control and his car crossed the centre line and hit Mr Te Kare.

"The two vehicles, a white Toyota Altezza and a silver Subaru Legacy, both entered a moderate right hand bend and the Altezza lost control.

"It slid sideways onto the wrong side of the road where it took out a motorcycle," said Inspector Stu Kearns from the police serious crash unit.

He said Mr Te Kare was minding his own business and doing nothing wrong.

He said the vehicles were travelling at "considerable speed" before the incident and several factors contributed to the loss of control.

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/6033916/teen-boy-racers-blamed-for-motorcyclist-death/

Sergeant Bede Haughey from the Warkworth police said both teenage drivers had been spoken to and charges were likely.

[phiretrojan]

This makes an interesting read.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10597333

Yip sums it all up Aucklander's need i quote more...

[Mekk]

Supposedly "mid-life crises" come about for men because of their women aging. When they reach menopause or about that, men get biologically restless and try to re-capture their youth, impress younger ladies etc.

This is why there are a lot of middle-aged men biting off more than they can chew.

For the laydeeeez.

[The Stranger]

Interestingly those stats would appear to be at odds with the Hurt report.
I wonder what changed in that time?
According to most all imports we are the worst car drivers in the world, so are we worse in every respect except one - hitting motorcycles? Has evolution meant car drivers have developed special observation powers for motorcycles?

It's been said before, an airline style investigation of fatal crashes with published results should help to confirm the stats and bring home the reality, it also allows us to focus on the problem areas - as it stands now, the problem areas remain unknown and everyone stands around wringing their hands instead.

[Oscar]

Interestingly those stats would appear to be at odds with the Hurt report.
I wonder what changed in that time?
According to most all imports we are the worst car drivers in the world, so are we worse in every respect except one - hitting motorcycles? Has evolution meant car drivers have developed special observation powers for motorcycles?

It's been said before, an airline style investigation of fatal crashes with published results should help to confirm the stats and bring home the reality, it also allows us to focus on the problem areas - as it stands now, the problem areas remain unknown and everyone stands around wringing their hands instead.

The sample is too small and too specific (it stands to reason a congested city like Auckland is dangerous for bikes), I doubt those figures translate nationwide.

[Mekk]

As a point of interest, this article from last year: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10500855

...says:

"ACC Minister Maryan Street said since 2001 claims for motorcycle accidents had nearly doubled and the annual ACC claim costs now exceeded $52 million.

"Riding a motorcycle is risky. Motorcyclists make up only 2 per cent of vehicles on the road but account for 18 per cent of road claims received by ACC."

She said increasing visibility would make motorcyclists safer. They were not to blame for three-quarters of the accidents they were involved in."

My emphasis in bold.

I'm not sure where that comment is coming from though, so maybe best to take with salt.

[Grumpy Gnomb]

Not sure if already on here but says in NZ Herald that motorcyclists were to balme for 70% of all Auckland City crashes in which they were involved over the past 5 years.

Police stats show two wheelers were the leading "Vehicle at fault" when involved in accidents every year from 2004 to last year - peaking at 74% in 2006

Automobile Association statistics show the problem is nationwide, with motorbikes and scooters causing 87 per cent of the 2303 fatal and serious injury crashes they were involved in between 2003 and last year.

Police and industry experts believed one cause of the crashes was the number of middle-aged men trying to recapture their youth by returning to the motorcycles they rode when they were young.


The article makes interesting reading

[tomobedlam]

already on here

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=107736&highlight=fault

[Marmoot]

This thread is a fail.

The win thread is available here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=107736)

[Rodney007]

lol @ old ppl

[Waxxa]

figures are figures and those who use figures use them in the manner they want the figures to read for there particular cause. go figure...

[dipshit]

She said increasing visibility would make motorcyclists safer. They were not to blame for three-quarters of the accidents they were involved in."[/I]

I'm not sure where that comment is coming from though, so maybe best to take with salt.

It was from a survey where they looked at *all* motorcycle crashes that resulted in even minor injuries on several specific major Auckland roads and streets.

As soon as you begin to look at a wider area that incorporates more open roads in relation to suburban streets - you start to see more serious injuries and fatal accidents. In these cases riders were responsible for the majority of them.

But BRONZ had picked up on that selective Auckland survey and were saying things to the media like 80% of motorcycle accidents are car drivers fault.

[dipshit]

The sample is too small and too specific (it stands to reason a congested city like Auckland is dangerous for bikes), I doubt those figures translate nationwide.

They are very close to nationwide figures actually...
http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

[hospitalfood]

lets be honest, a lot of us are hoons. my favorite hoons in fact.

we say dumb shit like "i have a lot of excperience" but often some of us ride with no safety margin at all.

i have been slowing down a bit since i rode off the road a while back, it was nice to have a warning that did not damage me or the bike at all. never had that before.

i don't mind people riding to the limit but when they straight faced tell you they are being safe........................tui.

[rphenix]

This makes an interesting read.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10597333

Well considering that, typically when a bike is involved in an accident the blame seems to auto-magically land on the motorcyclist till proven otherwise I'm not surprised if in doubt the bike is at fault right?

[Mekk]

It was from a survey where they looked at *all* motorcycle crashes that resulted in even minor injuries on several specific major Auckland roads and streets.

As soon as you begin to look at a wider area that incorporates more open roads in relation to suburban streets - you start to see more serious injuries and fatal accidents. In these cases riders were responsible for the majority of them.

But BRONZ had picked up on that selective Auckland survey and were saying things to the media like 80% of motorcycle accidents are car drivers fault.

OK but what does BRONZ have to do with what the ACC Minister says to the media?

[Katman]

i don't mind people riding to the limit

Whereas I do - because when they are riding to their limit they are placing every other road user they encounter at a higher degree of risk.

[hospitalfood]

Whereas I do - because when they are riding to their limit they are placing every other road user they encounter at a higher degree of risk.

true. but i can't change them so im not going to stress about it. and i like breaking rules and others who do. prefer that to everyone being well behaved because well behaved bores me

[Katman]

and i like breaking rules and others who do. prefer that to everyone being well behaved because well behaved bores me

Can you pay my rego please?

:niceone:

[hospitalfood]

rego is another thing i have an issue with.
it would be better if we paid rego for the first vehicle and $20 on top of that for every other vehicle, with the proivision that only the registered owner drives the vehicle.
I have a car and two bikes, and i plan to get more bikes. the rego is killing me.

[hospitalfood]

Can you pay my rego please?

:niceone:

no.sorry. but i will shout you a beer.

[dipshit]

OK but what does BRONZ have to do with what the ACC Minister says to the media?

The Minister had been referring with motorcycle organisations. They just feed her their usual crap.

[Mekk]

The Minister had been referring with motorcycle organisations. They just feed her their usual crap.

Ahh, thanks for the clarification.

[jetboy]

It's never my fault - it was like that when I got there.

[Thaeos]

Short video about causes of motorcycle accidents in britain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJBjUuKuPyo&NR=1

[Elysium]

The Chinese do it better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj4LrSxjTIM&feature=PlayList&p=909005D753E58E69&index=10&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL

[Mom]

Mom, i heard there was one up your way in the dome valley which was pretty bad.

Yeah a very sad one too mate!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10597430


Get used to it. That will be a common theme in Monday morning papers over summer.

Dont ever be fooled into thinking that bikers are ALWAYS AT FAULT mate. This bloke was minding his own business and got taken out. Even the police say so. This is a completely non-fault biker fatality, trouble is it will form part of the statistics that the opening post referred to.

Damned if we do, and damned if we dont really.

[kiwi cowboy]

Still, and I say it again for the fifth time.

That's not the point.

Besides, if you read the actual chart it shows the scooters are up there with the bikes......so yes she is........Just not as many.

* Vehicles at fault

(crashes involving motorcycles in Auckland City):

2004: 6 scooter, 7 motorcycle - 69 per cent

2005: 4 scooter, 12 motorcycle - 76 per cent

2006: 8 scooter, 12 motorcycle - 74 per cent

2007: 8 scooter, 14 motorcycle - 69 per cent

2008: 9 scooter, 16 motorcycle - 61 per cent

Got to this post and nobody,s pointed out that the number of scooter crashes verses the number of motorcycle crashes in relation to the total number of each thats being ridden over all would in my opinion make the scooter percentage worse than the bikes.

[Squiggles]

Finally read the paper tonight and wrote a response... we'll see if it gets published :laugh:

Re: Motorcyclists to blame
I find the sources & statistics used in Tuesday's article "Motorcyclists more often to blame for crashes" to be rather one sided. For instance, It has long been known that the Automobile Association does not represent motorcyclists, it is near impossible to even be insured with that branch of their "association", or dare i say corporation? A more accurate source would be the 2008 Motorcycle Crash Factsheet as published by the Ministry of Transport, which paints a far different picture. Multivehicle, primary responsibility: 25% Single vehicle primary responsibility: 26%. A subtle caption "In Auckland City" would bring the average reader to think of the entirety of Auckland, not the significantly smaller area laid out in the district plan. Regardless, the figures stand in contrast to the heading "More often to blame", With the percentage of vehicles at fault decreasing each year since 2005. To jump somewhat blindly between sources (AA, Police Statistics, Auckland City Council, Counties Manukau Police) in order to twist figures and manufacture headlines is not reporting at its finest.

xxx
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The mentioned factsheet: http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Pages/motorcyclecrashfacts.aspx

[Pwalo]

I'm sure that you can cherry pick stats to paint whatever picture you want.

All the stats presented in the article have a percentage of 'blame' attached which would indicate a somewhat subjective assessment of accidents.

For instance in a single vehicle accident how do you determine what percentage of the accident was the fault of the rider/driver? 100% because they were the only one invovled, or is there a percentage attributed to external factors, such as road surface, weather, visibility, etc?

[Drunken Monkey]

... instance in a single vehicle accident how do you determine what percentage of the accident was the fault of the rider/driver? 100% because they were the only one invovled, or is there a percentage attributed to external factors, such as road surface, weather, visibility, etc?

Erm, if the rider couldn't keep control because of road surface, weather conditions or visibility, then by definition it is the rider's fault, innit?

[MSTRS]

Erm, if the rider couldn't keep control because of road surface, weather conditions or visibility, then by definition it is the rider's fault, innit?

Yep. There would be very few single motorcycle accidents that were not the rider's fault.
Hit by a meteorite, road collapse (under the bike) due to earthquake, falling tree (this one has happened)...not common occurrences, tho.

[Winston001]

Team - all of this arguing about statistics and blame misses the point. It reminds me of the arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. :buggerd:

When we ride a motorcycle we only have two tyres to balance on and control the machine. There are no airbags. No crush zones. No cabin.

The slightest accident can result in injury. Eg - I ruptured my biceps tendon on a stopped trail bike when it overbalanced on a rut. Wouldn't have happened in the 4wd.

Motorcycles are inherently more dangerous than cars. It doesn't matter who is to blame for an accident - the biker comes off worse. And that is all that matters to road safety, ACC, health officials, and policy makers.

[MSTRS]

But but but...ACC is (supposed to be) a no-fault system. Why would stats be used at all? Just fund ACC from the govt coffers...

[Winston001]

But but but...ACC is (supposed to be) a no-fault system. Why would stats be used at all? Just fund ACC from the govt coffers...

One of ACC's objectives is to reduce accidents. Just as Health Boards are tasked with reducing illness. Ambulance at the top of the cliff stuff.

[MSTRS]

One of ACC's objectives is to reduce accidents. Just as Health Boards are tasked with reducing illness. Ambulance at the top of the cliff stuff.

I know. Just struck me that a no-fault system which stings some (potential) endusers and does not reward longterm no-users...

[Grahameeboy]

This makes an interesting read.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10597333

If you go to page 4 of this link http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdfIt is actually 51% of Bikers are primarily at fault so a big difference.

[bogan]

To put in a different perspective, if it is mostly our fault, is that such a bad thing, that means we can take charge and reduce the accidents, take some personal responsibility. But if its all the cagers fault then there very little we can do.

[Pwalo]

Yep. There would be very few single motorcycle accidents that were not the rider's fault.
Hit by a meteorite, road collapse (under the bike) due to earthquake, falling tree (this one has happened)...not common occurrences, tho.

No, I disagree. I don't things are as black and white as you aver. Travelling at any speed won't necessarily protect you from things that you can't detect, ie spilt oil, poorly repaired road surfaces, potholes, gravel, etc.

Sure in most circumstances you will pick hazards up in time to take avoiding action (in a safe and courteous manner of course), but not always.

Mind you that is not meant to absolve any rider from taking responsibilty for their own actions, and safety.

[MSTRS]

No, I disagree. I don't things are as black and white as you aver. Travelling at any speed won't necessarily protect you from things that you can't detect, ie spilt oil, poorly repaired road surfaces, potholes, gravel, etc.

Sure in most circumstances you will pick hazards up in time to take avoiding action (in a safe and courteous manner of course), but not always.

Mind you that is not meant to absolve any rider from taking responsibilty for their own actions, and safety.

For a minute there, I thought you'd been interferred with by Katman....
I'm talking those never-really-specified acts of god.

[Winston001]

Fault.

Think of it like this. There is a sharp bend on SH1 and cars are continually running off it or crossing the centre line. A bad spot.

What do road safety officials and ACC do? Start a national campaign of teaching motorists to slow down for corners? Bombard us with advertisments explaining apexing? After all, its the drivers fault if they can't stay on the road.

No. They send in machinery and trucks to create a new safer corner. They do not blame drivers because its pointless.

Thus it is with motorcycles. No-one is going to take any notice of us trying to blame car drivers.

[MSTRS]

There is a certain logic in what you say, but replace the cars running off the road with bikes instead...
The road will not get 'fixed', but ACC will be increased and more insurers will refuse to cover etc. See where I'm going with this? It's a numbers game and we don't have the numbers. Actually, we probably do, but there is no collective will. So we continue to be a target because we are an easy target and don't do ourselves too many favours.

[mister.koz]

The whole "at fault" part is way too subjective, even in this thread we have had quotes for "at fault" accidents from the same year from different sources that should be the same...

I think its obvious that the statistics here are skewed to an intention.

Its also useful to point out that most of the time if a driver is breaking the law they are immediately considered at fault regardless of the actual cause of the accident.

Proportionally i would say that there are allot and i mean heaps more riders without licenses than car drivers without licences. From all accounts i know 100s of people who drive cars and quite allot less than 1/2 that number of people who ride bikes and there is STILL more riders out of CC or riding outside their class 1 requirements (i.e. riding a bike, not a car).

I don't think that statistics can be relied on here.

As someone said higher up in the thread, we are less protected and we are at a much higher risk of serious injury. I would also like to make the point that my bike has more than 4 times the horsepower per tonne than any car i have owned and about 1/3 the contact to the road (if i am real generous). I'll admit that i believe that bikes are capable of better handling.

95% of the riders i know are way more technical than any car driver i have met, they have a massive passion for it and i believe that this passion makes them better.

All positives and negatives aside, bikes have allot more power and allot less protection and car drivers don't seem to see us quite so well, i think those points are more valuable to focus on rather than some purpose-weighted statistics.

[dipshit]

Dont ever be fooled into thinking that bikers are ALWAYS AT FAULT mate.

Gee... you don't say. And here was me thinking that 75% meant 100%. <_<




This bloke was minding his own business and got taken out. Even the police say so. This is a completely non-fault biker fatality, trouble is it will form part of the statistics that the opening post referred to.

And you have one where it wasn't his fault. How about the countless others we hear about weekend after weekend where it was a motorcyclist or motorcyclists *only* involved in a fatal? Shall we go recounting all of those ones too..??

[dipshit]

To put in a different perspective, if it is mostly our fault, is that such a bad thing, that means we can take charge and reduce the accidents, take some personal responsibility. But if its all the cagers fault then there very little we can do.

Exactly. Which is why organisations like BRONZ that have even managed to bullshit motorcyclists (while spinning to the general public in their propaganda campaign) into thinking that most accidents are caused by car drivers... are causing more harm than good. Motorcyclists end up hitting the road with an attitude that their shit doesn't stink... they are special... and its all those stupid car drivers that are the problem.

Things aren't going to change while that attitude is prevalent.

[Maha]

And you have one where it wasn't his fault. How about the countless others we hear about weekend after weekend where it was a motorcyclist or motorcyclists *only* involved in a fatal? Shall we go recounting all of those ones too..??

Sure, if it will help your conquest and make you feel good about yourself, at least for today?
Not all biker fatality's are the fault of the biker, so if you can supply us data that proves otherwise then please do. I dont mind being corrected at all.

[mister.koz]

Exactly. Which is why organisations like BRONZ that have even managed to bullshit motorcyclists (while spinning to the general public in their propaganda campaign) into thinking that most accidents are caused by car drivers... are causing more harm than good. Motorcyclists end up hitting the road with an attitude that their shit doesn't stink... they are special... and its all those stupid car drivers that are the problem.

Things aren't going to change while that attitude is prevalent.

Dunno man, thats a bit of a polar view.. I saw some stats last year that said 75% of accidents causign injury involving cars and bikes were the car driver's fault. It didn't mean i put my crown on and pissed allover the peasants in their foolish cars, it rang warning bells about the dangers of being close to cars so i backed off.

I honestly believe that car drivers (including myself when i am on 4 wheels) are more nonchalant, pay less attention and are more likely to only identify with vehicles they see as a threat (i.e. not bikes).

It doesn't mean they are idiots and my shit smells like chocolate covered strawberries, just that i need to be extra careful.

[dipshit]

Not all biker fatality's are the fault of the biker, so if you can supply us data that proves otherwise then please do. I dont mind being corrected at all.

I never said they were! Saying 75% or the majority of them are, is not saying they all are. Of course they all aren't always the rider's fault.

But selecting an example from the smaller minority does not take away the fact that the majority are rider error.

(unless you're delusional) :whistle:

[Maha]

I never said they were! Saying 75% or the majority of them are, is not saying they all are. Of course they all aren't always the rider's fault.

But selecting an example from the smaller minority does not take away the fact that the majority are rider error.

(unless you're delusional) :whistle:

Did you miss this bit?

'stats last year that said 75% of accidents causing injury involving cars and bikes were the car driver's fault'.

Not really a majority eh?...well not where the biker is concerned.

[dipshit]

Did you miss this bit?

'stats last year that said 75% of accidents causing injury involving cars and bikes were the car driver's fault'.

Where was that bit?

[Maha]

Where was that bit?

Scroll up, post 96. Right above your post 97.

[dipshit]

Scroll up, post 96. Right above your post 97.

"I saw some stats last year that said 75% of accidents causign injury involving cars and bikes were the car driver's fault."

Oh, someone saw some stats. Was this on a BRONZ website? Was this an overseas study? Was this that selective Auckland study? Who knows.

NZ authorities are actually giving us these statistics year after year...
http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

One of the obvious things is that around 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents are rider error.

[MSTRS]

Doesn't matter what the figures are...this lot of stats say 75%, that lot say 43%, and so on...what matters is that too many of us are dying on the roads. Some try to do something about it, and some just wanna argue.
Love them or not, BRONZ is the only voice we have (other than Alan Kirk :pinch:)

[Mom]

(other than Alan Kirk :pinch:)

Wash your mouth out immediately!

[MSTRS]

Sorry. Do I need to use soap as well??

[MarkH]

It's been said before, an airline style investigation of fatal crashes with published results should help to confirm the stats and bring home the reality, it also allows us to focus on the problem areas - as it stands now, the problem areas remain unknown and everyone stands around wringing their hands instead.

I have to agree with this point. I recall reading on these forums about a young man that was killed when a woman in a car did a U-turn in front of his bike. He died and his girlfriend riding pillion was injured. The woman went to court and claimed that the bike must have been speeding - no evidence of this at all. The defense claimed that the bike had crash bungs, indicating the rider was likely to be a frequent speeder (WTF?). The woman was let off - bad result IMO.

But in the crash statistics what was that death blamed on - motorcyclist at fault or not?

Take this:
2008: 9 scooter, 16 motorcycle - 61 per cent

What does it mean really? How many motorcycles and how many scooters are in the area? 61% were to blame - but in what way? That is only 25 accidents in total, I wouldn't mind knowing what went wrong in those 25 cases and what lessons we could all learn from them. There is way too little info here to draw any meaningful conclusions from!

[bogan]

Seems like the stats can say whatever is required, distribute stats saying rider is at fault to the riders, and cars are at fault to the cagers.

To the riders:
75% of motorcycle fatalities are caused by rider error, your life is in your hands. Ride Safe!

To the cagers:
75% of motorcyclists are killed by car drivers, thier life is in your hands. Drive Safe!

problem solved :2thumbsup

[Bonez]

Seems to be a reduction since 2006. Surely that is a good thing.

[Katman]

Seems to be a reduction since 2006. Surely that is a good thing.

Yeah, lets all sit back and pat each other on the back while the next batch die this summer.

[Bonez]

Yeah, lets all sit back and pat each other on the back while the next batch die this summer.What fucken idiotic statement. You poor poor little man.

Started your riding instruction course yet?

[Elysium]

Yeah, lets all sit back and pat each other on the back while the next batch die this summer.

You seem to crave death.

[Katman]

You seem to crave death.

You seem to be retarded.

[Grahameeboy]

You seem to be retarded.

Scissors v Paper.....;)

[Mom]

scissors v paper.....;)

...rock!....

[bogan]

...rock!....

Spock!

<img src="http://cliqueclack.s3.amazonaws.com/tv/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/tbbt1117.jpg"/>

[dipshit]

To the cagers:
75% of motorcyclists are killed by car drivers, thier life is in your hands. Drive Safe!

Until they realise whoever told them this was talking shit. Then they will think motorcyclists are a bunch of whingeing hypocrites who get what they deserve.

[bogan]

Until they realise whoever told them this was talking shit. Then they will think motorcyclists are a bunch of whingeing hypocrites who get what they deserve.

We shall just have to be very careful about spreading the disinformation properly, looks like bronz and harold have proved it can be done :shifty:

[Mom]

Spock!

Mork!

<img src="http://pathfinderpat.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/spock.jpg"/>

Stop being naughty on my thread :innocent:

[bogan]

Mork!

Stop being naughty on my thread :innocent:

Wasn't even being naughty au, spock disintegrates rock and wins in the rock, scissors, paper, lizard, spock competition!

edit, also, whats mork?

[dipshit]

We shall just have to be very careful about spreading the disinformation properly, looks like bronz and harold have proved it can be done :shifty:

haha... :msn-wink:

Unfortunately in the long run it will backfire. Motorcyclists keep killing themselves by falling off the roads weekend after weekend... and then the general public cottons on to what is really going on and lose any sympathy for motorcyclists they may have had.

Facing up to and addressing the real problems sooner rather than later would be more helpful ultimately.

[NinjaNanna]

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to dipshit again


haha... :msn-wink:

Unfortunately in the long run it will backfire. Motorcyclists keep killing themselves by falling off the roads weekend after weekend... and then the general public cottons on to what is really going on and lose any sympathy for motorcyclists they may have had.

Facing up to and addressing the real problems sooner rather than later would be more helpful ultimately.

[Maha]

''One of the obvious things is that around 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents are rider error''.

This message was brought to you by dipshitiamrightyouarewrong.com

[FJRider]

''One of the obvious things is that around 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents are rider error''.



When "No other vehicles were involved" its pretty obvious... Most motorcyclists will know the power of (their) life is in their hands.

[Matt_TG]

The average Herald Reader ... "hmmm, I'm not going to ever let my kid ride a bike, ever, they're dangerous" ... "now I'll read the entertainment news and promptly forget all about that article, because as a non-biker, it's just white noise to me"

And over at the NZ Voice of Biking (Kiwibiker) ....

"9 pages of snarl, spit, hiss, name calling, in-fighting, tempers rising."

:girlfight:

"what are we gonna argue over next? Ohhh look Carver's gonna do another stunt!!"

Hehe (tongue in cheek)

[Elysium]

You seem to be retarded.

:violin: Oh what a miserable old women you are. Cheer up.

[dipshit]

''One of the obvious things is that around 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents are rider error''.

This message was brought to you by dipshitiamrightyouarewrong.com

BRONZ sure has done a good job of brainwashing you lot.

Oh no, it can't be true, it can't be true!

:brick:

http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

[Squiggles]

I prefer the next page of the factsheet actually, where it breaks the injuries down and we find 745/1518 Rural injuries were lost control/ran off road :(

I disliked the tone in which that article was written. I dont believe its as bad as it was made out to be, thus the comment about the sources and ambiguity, but we're heading that way. Should we be concerned? Yep.

[Drunken Monkey]

edit, also, whats mork?

He stepped out of an egg then lived with Mindy.

Na-nu, na-nu...

[dpex]

Fuck the scooters off the list.

Not really fair to include them as well, really, they generally don't wear ANY gear other than the bare minimum helmet, shorts, T-shirt and jandles/running shoes.......

It's like saying that people on 4 wheeler farm bikes have four wheels so they should be included in car statistics.....

Ere! I wear shorts and a T and sand-shoes in summer! Still got all my skin after forty years of riding.

[FJRider]

Ere! I wear shorts and a T and sand-shoes in summer! Still got all my skin after forty years of riding.

Lucky you .. I still got most of mine.