Swerving...

[magicmonkey]

Ok, so I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here as I still need to get emergency braking sorted out properly but I'm working on that, honest!

The idea has hit me that after I've put in a few more hours practice and I'm comfortable with emergency stops I should probably find my way to a car park and practice swerves before getting out on the road properly (I know, I know, I'm being an anally retentive noob:Pokey:). The problem is that although there is a bit of information on t'interwebs about when to swerve, there is precious little information about how to actually do it. I'm told that it involves 2 sharp counter-steered turns but that's about as much as I can glean on the subject, could anyone shed some light on the actual 'how' of swerving?

[MSTRS]

Hard to describe in mere words on a screen. You've basically said it yourself...'2 sharply executed countersteer moves'. But there's body shift and stuff, as well, that can help.
I suggest you get in touch with a Welly mentor (Deano?) and go get some face time on the bikes.

[magicmonkey]

I suggest you get in touch with a Welly mentor (Deano?) and go get some face time on the bikes.

That's probably a very good idea! I've got to say, this site is awesome for noobs :D

[avgas]

look where you want to go, not where you want to swerve.
Also try its about 100 times doing exactly the same thing.
Eventually it will be habit and a natural reaction.
I found it easier to learn in the grass on road tyres (no seriously) as you need less speed.

[NDORFN]

IMO the best way to learn anything is to teach yourself. Swerving for example... Visualise or look up on Youtube what a swerve consists of then try to emulate that with practise. Taking technical advice from instructors and experienced riders is always an advantage, but ultimately it should come down to you and the bike and enough practise to confidently say that you've mastered it. I like your attitude and I'd go as far as to say that if all learners were this eager to put the time and effort into developing/honing thier skills there'd be alot less accidents. I guess the only other piece of advice I have for you is to put yourself on a bike that you're not afraid to drop while practising (in a carpark of course), because if you're doing it right, you WILL drop it as you need to push yourself over the edge to know exactly where the edge is. For example, learning how far you can lean your bike before a peg or exhaust hits and levers your wheels out can only be achieved by actually doing that, round and round in circles, knee out, until THUMP... and you're lying next to your bike having with an education you can't get any other way.

[MSTRS]

Nah. Finding 'the edge' doesn't work quite like that. Surfaces change and tyre temps etc all combine to make the edge a moving target.

[BMWST?]

actually athe swerve itself is not so bad....give the right bar a push and the bike will go to the right.But you then have to correct so you have to give the left bar a push while you are still leaned over to the right,then a smaller push to bring the bike back on course.You need a car park or something to practise this,but you can try very small pushes on the bars when going along the road to feel the effect of a deliberate "countersteer"

[NDORFN]

Nah. Finding 'the edge' doesn't work quite like that. Surfaces change and tyre temps etc all combine to make the edge a moving target.

It's a mental thing dummy. How many people have died because they were afraid to dig it in? How many people have died because they dug it in too far?

[p.dath]

I wouldn't worry about it quite so much. Just get out their on some quiet roads and get some riding time in. Get some basic skills to the stage where they are automatic.
By all means practice swerves as well, but things like swerving hard will become easier when you can focus more attention on them - and that happens when you don't have to focus attention on other areas because they have become automatic.

[magicmonkey]

IMO the best way to learn anything is to teach yourself. Swerving for example... Visualise or look up on Youtube what a swerve consists of then try to emulate that with practise.

And therein lies the problem, I've got an idea of what I think needs to be done in a swerve but without actually knowing the basic principles I don't want to head out with some silly fantasy in my head and try to do something impossible, I'm trying to not visualise anything until I know what I should be visalising.

You tube can be pretty helpful for a lot of things but shitty quality and tiny pictures make for missing a lot of the finer points; for-instance, I have no idea what the handlebars are doing on any of the swerve vids I've seen...

[magicmonkey]

I wouldn't worry about it quite so much. Just get out their on some quiet roads and get some riding time in. Get some basic skills to the stage where they are automatic.
By all means practice swerves as well, but things like swerving hard will become easier when you can focus more attention on them - and that happens when you don't have to focus attention on other areas because they have become automatic.

heh, at the moment I'm just stroppy because I've got a new bike and I have to spend all day at work! It seems that if I can't ride at the moment I'm thinking about riding. My boss will probably realise I haven't done anything other than read bike sites for the last week soon :p

[pistonbroke]

Mr Monkey ,swerving is a bit risky wear good gear:clap:

[Ixion]

.. For example, learning how far you can lean your bike before a peg or exhaust hits and levers your wheels out can only be achieved by actually doing that, round and round in circles, knee out, until THUMP... and you're lying next to your bike having with an education you can't get any other way.

That has to be one of the silliest, and potentially most dangerous "recommendations" I have ever read here .

Please, if you are a learner IGNORE IT.

God, it's almost enough to make me sign up to the Katman Foundation

[NDORFN]

And therein lies the problem, I've got an idea of what I think needs to be done in a swerve but without actually knowing the basic principles I don't want to head out with some silly fantasy in my head and try to do something impossible, I'm trying to not visualise anything until I know what I should be visalising.

You tube can be pretty helpful for a lot of things but shitty quality and tiny pictures make for missing a lot of the finer points; for-instance, I have no idea what the handlebars are doing on any of the swerve vids I've seen...

I mean visualising what happens in a swerve, as if you're watching someone else do it. And by 'what happens' I mean the bike and rider go around the obstacle. Then make it happen. Put a couple of cones down and practise. The thing is, you're on a GN250, which is in a completely different league as the bikes of most people here trying to give you advise. You DO need to know how to swerve before you do too much riding because when the need arises, if you're not the complete master of your bike, you'll just hit the brakes and it'll get messy. My last suggestion is, DO try to gather as much advice before, during and after as available, but try keep it relevant ie. In terms of the techniques riquired to control your bike, give priority to advice from other GN250 riders. There's a few on KB and there are FAQ sites and forums.

[NDORFN]

That has to be one of the silliest, and potentially most dangerous "recommendations" I have ever read here .

Please, if you are a learner IGNORE IT.

God, it's almost enough to make me sign up to the Katman Foundation

Going round and round on a 250 in a carpark... Dangerous in what way? What could happen? A broken ankle or wrist at worst. You must be the biggest pussy on KB.

[Ixion]

Going round and round on a 250 in a carpark... Dangerous in what way? What could happen? A broken ankle or wrist at worst. You must be the biggest pussy on KB.

Perhaps so, but a pussy that's still going round unscathed after nearly 50 years

Does it not occur to you that the dynamics of adhesion are SPEED RELATED. And that suspension behaviour changes at speed. And under braking. What works in a car park won't work in a 100km corner. And BUMP related. And CAMBER related. And a SHIT load of other stuff related. And that when the car park lean angle doesn't work out in that 100kph corner, the result is likely to be much worse that a broken ankle or wrist.

Car park slow practice is a GoodThing. Falling off is never a GoodThing.

Go round and round in a car park by all means. Just don't assume that means jack shit about "learning how far you can lean your bike before a peg or exhaust hits and levers your wheels out ".

Oh, and BTW, a peg or zorst touching down will NOT "lever your wheels out". Not if you know what you are doing. Otherwise my pegs and silencers wouldn't be ground down and scraped.

[retro asian]

Put a cone, or other unthreatening obstacle in the middle of a car park.

Ride straight towards it, and then practise going each way to avoid it (using countersteering technique).

Be relaxed, take it slowly to begin with, repeat and very gradually try to do better each time.

[The Pastor]

Perhaps so, but a pussy that's still going round unscathed after nearly 50 years

Does it not occur to you that the dynamics of adhesion are SPEED RELATED. And that suspension behaviour changes at speed. And under braking. What works in a car park won't work in a 100km corner. And BUMP related. And CAMBER related. And a SHIT load of other stuff related. And that when the car park lean angle doesn't work out in that 100kph corner, the result is likely to be much worse that a broken ankle or wrist.

Car park slow practice is a GoodThing. Falling off is never a GoodThing.

Go round and round in a car park by all means. Just don't assume that means jack shit about "learning how far you can lean your bike before a peg or exhaust hits and levers your wheels out ".

Oh, and BTW, a peg or zorst touching down will NOT "lever your wheels out". Not if you know what you are doing. Otherwise my pegs and silencers wouldn't be ground down and scraped.
technically it will lever you wheel off the gound, but you have to hit them hard enough to over come your susspension and weight of the bike + rider....

[vifferman]

Practicing swerving depends on two things: you go where you look, and to turn a bike quickly, push hard on the bars (right bar to go right, left to go left).
Oh - and 'Practice Makes Perfect'.
So that's three (3) things.

You need gravity too.
And some momentum. :confused:

Anyway, here's how it works. First, practice riding doing exaggerated S-curves, on a quiet piece of road, or an unused carpark, so you get the feel of wiggling the bike around.

Next, when you're riding along, pick something as a marker (patch on the road, lane marker, catseye, banana peel, dead wombat, like whatever). As you approach it, choose a route around it (left or right, as appropriate), and keep your eyes on that route, as you give the bars a firm nudge. Stop pushing on the bars and push slightly the other way, to come back on course.

Practice doing small swerves at first, then move onto bigger ones (firmer nudges for slightly longer).

After doing this a few times, it will become patterned into your brain, and you should be able to do it without thinking.

In a critical situation, the most important thing is to pick an escape route, and keep your attention focused on it. You can glance elsewhere, to see if your escape route needs adjusting, as long as your focus is NOT on what you're trying to avoid.

[magicmonkey]

Practicing swerving depends on two things: you go where you look, and to turn a bike quickly, push hard on the bars (right bar to go right, left to go left).
Oh - and 'Practice Makes Perfect'.
So that's three (3) things.

You need gravity too.
And some momentum. :confused:

Anyway, here's how it works. First, practice riding doing exaggerated S-curves, on a quiet piece of road, or an unused carpark, so you get the feel of wiggling the bike around.

Next, when you're riding along, pick something as a marker (patch on the road, lane marker, catseye, banana peel, dead wombat, like whatever). As you approach it, choose a route around it (left or right, as appropriate), and keep your eyes on that route, as you give the bars a firm nudge. Stop pushing on the bars and push slightly the other way, to come back on course.

Practice doing small swerves at first, then move onto bigger ones (firmer nudges for slightly longer).

After doing this a few times, it will become patterned into your brain, and you should be able to do it without thinking.

In a critical situation, the most important thing is to pick an escape route, and keep your attention focused on it. You can glance elsewhere, to see if your escape route needs adjusting, as long as your focus is NOT on what you're trying to avoid.

this might be a really silly question, but if I'm leaned over after countersteering by pressing on the right bar, would I need to countersteer by pressing on the left bar to go left? Or, do slow riding steering dynamics come back into play when leaned over (ie, pointing the wheel in the direction you want to go rather than countersteering)

I'm not too sure I've been very clear there :s

[MSTRS]

It's a mental thing dummy. How many people have died because they were afraid to dig it in? How many people have died because they dug it in too far?


That has to be one of the silliest, and potentially most dangerous "recommendations" I have ever read here .

Please, if you are a learner IGNORE IT.

God, it's almost enough to make me sign up to the Katman Foundation


Going round and round on a 250 in a carpark... Dangerous in what way? What could happen? A broken ankle or wrist at worst. You must be the biggest pussy on KB.


Perhaps so, but a pussy that's still going round unscathed after nearly 50 years

Does it not occur to you that the dynamics of adhesion are SPEED RELATED. And that suspension behaviour changes at speed. And under braking. What works in a car park won't work in a 100km corner. And BUMP related. And CAMBER related. And a SHIT load of other stuff related. And that when the car park lean angle doesn't work out in that 100kph corner, the result is likely to be much worse that a broken ankle or wrist.

Car park slow practice is a GoodThing. Falling off is never a GoodThing.

Go round and round in a car park by all means. Just don't assume that means jack shit about "learning how far you can lean your bike before a peg or exhaust hits and levers your wheels out ".

Oh, and BTW, a peg or zorst touching down will NOT "lever your wheels out". Not if you know what you are doing. Otherwise my pegs and silencers wouldn't be ground down and scraped.

Don't you just love how the young think that us OldFarts (tm) know nothing?

[davereid]

Ok, so I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here as I still need to get emergency braking sorted out properly but I'm working on that, honest!The idea has hit me that after I've put in a few more hours practice and I'm comfortable with emergency stops I should probably find my way to a car park and practice swerves before getting out on the road properly

Good on ya for thinking of your skill level so objectively before getting on the road.

Traveling at a safe speed, so that you can easily stop in the clear road ahead with your current level of skill is the first thing to master !

Swerving, to my mind may have its place, but its usually as the result of a dog - cat - possum - Toyota putting itself into the bit of clear road you had just allocated yourself.

I have always found that swerving is anticipated by the dog - cat - possum - toyota which will rapidly re-deploy itself to your new bit of clear road !

So practice your braking first.

Don't follow any advice that suggests going in circles to see how long it takes you to fall off, as you will fall off.

Its a shame so many learners choose the GN250 and similar as a learner bike.

Years ago the "chook chaser" - thats a road legal dirt bike was a much more common choice.

We learned how to brake, control skids and wheel step-outs off road, while having fun.

No one ever deliberately crashed, but you would test your limits on slippery dirt, sand and grass, and soon master minor skids and step-outs without pain, or expensive bike damage.

[NDORFN]

Perhaps so, but a pussy that's still going round unscathed after nearly 50 years

Does it not occur to you that the dynamics of adhesion are SPEED RELATED. And that suspension behaviour changes at speed. And under braking. What works in a car park won't work in a 100km corner. And BUMP related. And CAMBER related. And a SHIT load of other stuff related. And that when the car park lean angle doesn't work out in that 100kph corner, the result is likely to be much worse that a broken ankle or wrist.

Car park slow practice is a GoodThing. Falling off is never a GoodThing.

Go round and round in a car park by all means. Just don't assume that means jack shit about "learning how far you can lean your bike before a peg or exhaust hits and levers your wheels out ".

Oh, and BTW, a peg or zorst touching down will NOT "lever your wheels out". Not if you know what you are doing. Otherwise my pegs and silencers wouldn't be ground down and scraped.

Not shit Sherlock. But it's a good start. You have to learn to walk before you can run, and mastering your bike in a carpark is starting point. He/she can learn about the way that speed, road conditions, braking etc... factor into swerving in a progressive manner as they expand thier practise beyond the carpark. But without those foundations they wont have the mental preparation for the road ie. going round a corner at 100kph and realising they're going to overshoot. If they've leaned thier bike over till it scrapes in a carpark, they're going to have the balls to dig it in and if they haven't, they're going to hit the brakes and achieve nothing but lines for the crash inspectors to measure. Anyhow, at the end of the day there are two types or bikers. Ones who do everything in theory, thinking through every situation, sitting behind thier computer reading up on how to ride etc... and there are ones who just get on a bike and learn how to ride it. You're obviously the former and I the latter.

[MSTRS]

this might be a really silly question, but if I'm leaned over after countersteering by pressing on the right bar, would I need to countersteer by pressing on the left bar to go left? Or, do slow riding steering dynamics come back into play when leaned over (ie, pointing the wheel in the direction you want to go rather than countersteering)

I'm not too sure I've been very clear there :s

Clear enough. You need to push on the bar to go in that direction and then push on the opposite bar to change back. How hard you push will vary depending on your speed and how quick/much you need to change course.

[Katman]

In conjunction with learning to swerve, aim to improve your situational awareness so the possibility of needing to swerve is reduced.

[vifferman]

Depends how fast you're going exactly what you do, but the pushing on the bar thing is about what the contact patch is doing, and moving it to effect a change in dynamics. Yes, at slow speed, you're just pointing the front wheel where you're going, but at that speed you really don't need to take avoiding action, as you can stop pretty quickly. (Just make sure you get the bike upright).

It's all about practice, and getting a feel for what happens in a variety of situations and at various speeds, so that you don't need to think before you react in an emergency. Then all you'll be doing is looking for a way out, and thinking about options, while your body (programmed by all your practice) does what it should, under control of your right hemisphere.

[magicmonkey]

Clear enough. You need to push on the bar to go in that direction and then push on the opposite bar to change back. How hard you push will vary depending on your speed and how quick/much you need to change course.

So, just to clarify, countersteering still applies when your leant over, right?

[Felix52]

If you had to countersteer to begin the swerve, you'll have to countersteer to come back upright. Doing it the other way would be an easy way to come off.

A good way to get the hang of countersteering is to find a straight place to ride (road, carpark, etc), get a bit of speed up, and give one of the bars a (gentle!) nudge. You'll get the hang of it fairly fast.

For swerving, just do one nudge each way to get the feel of it, then start working on steering around things using it. I tend to practice on manhole covers on the way home from work.

[vifferman]

In conjunction with learning to swerve, aim to improve your situational awareness so the possibility of needing to swerve is reduced.
A very, very good point, Dr Katman! :niceone:
You give yourself a LOT more time to respond if you do that, and are a lot less likely to need to take emergency action as you will have already taken appropriate steps to turn what could have been an emergency into nothing at all. If it was the Spanish Inquisition, you'd be screwed, but it's only numpties playing on the road (including the odd cat, dog, or errant football).

[vifferman]

I tend to practice on manhole covers on the way home from work.
I hope you meant "with"... :confused:

[MSTRS]

PLEASE. Any newbies reading NDORFN's posts - IGNORE his faulty advice. It is dangerous.

[BMWST?]

So, just to clarify, countersteering still applies when your leant over, right?

yes and to futher clarify you may need to counter steer THREE times,once to initiate swerve ,once(perhaps a slightly higher effort) to swerve back and another to straighten.
When/if you ride a faster bigger bike over a windy road you may need to countersteer in this fashion to negotiate the bends.
And FWIW this countersteering is how we control any two wheeled vehicle,its just normally applied in a much more subtle way,than this deliberate PUSH(gently at first).

[magicmonkey]

In conjunction with learning to swerve, aim to improve your situational awareness so the possibility of needing to swerve is reduced.

I think that's probably the bit I need to pay the least attention to at the moment, I've had 13 accident free years of driving a car and I can drive like a complete idiot at times, it comes down to leaving a big enough gap in front of me and being aware of what's going in in my peripheral vision. Initially I though those skills would need to be re-learned to bring them in line with biking but after being out on the road a bit I found my hazard perception was still just as useful.

Not that I'm saying it isn't important or that I'm perfect, just that I can only be actively learning so many things at once and my emergency reaction responses need a lot more work than my hazard perception for now.

[magicmonkey]

yes and to futher clarify you may need to counter steer THREE times,once to initiate swerve ,once(perhaps a slightly higher effort) to swerve back and another to straighten.
When/if you ride a faster bigger bike over a windy road you may need to countersteer in this fashion to negotiate the bends.

Eek! That sounds like it's going to get a bit complicated for me at the moment! I think I might have to come back to the whole countersteering principles when I've got the basics down properly!

[Felix52]

I hope you meant "with"... :confused:

Ahem, yes, I meant that I practice swerving around them (mostly, don't always get it right....) :(

[MSTRS]

In conjunction with learning to swerve, aim to improve your situational awareness so the possibility of needing to swerve is reduced.
All too true.

So, just to clarify, countersteering still applies when your leant over, right?

You better believe it. Go practice in a safe place. Get a mentor to help you.
You will find that a given amount of nudge, will initiate a given amount of lean/turn. Depends on your bike, but a well set-up bike will maintain that lean until you do something else. Like nudge again on the same bar will increase the lean/turn. Or on the opposite bar will straighten you up. Or a harder nudge will set you leaning/turning the other way.

[MSTRS]

I think that's probably the bit I need to pay the least attention to at the moment, I've had 13 accident free years of driving a car and I can drive like a complete idiot at times, it comes down to leaving a big enough gap in front of me and being aware of what's going in in my peripheral vision. Initially I though those skills would need to be re-learned to bring them in line with biking but after being out on the road a bit I found my hazard perception was still just as useful.

Not that I'm saying it isn't important or that I'm perfect, just that I can only be actively learning so many things at once and my emergency reaction responses need a lot more work than my hazard perception for now.

False logic. Hazards for bikers are many more than for cagers. Don't rely on your cager skills to give you enough warning...

[magicmonkey]

You better believe it. Go practice in a safe place. Get a mentor to help you.
You will find that a given amount of nudge, will initiate a given amount of lean/turn. Depends on your bike, but a well set-up bike will maintain that lean until you do something else. Like nudge again on the same bar will increase the lean/turn. Or on the opposite bar will straighten you up. Or a harder nudge will set you leaning/turning the other way.

Sweet, thanks for that, it's probably saved me a slide down the road!

[NDORFN]

PLEASE. Any newbies reading NDORFN's posts - IGNORE his faulty advice. It is dangerous.

Grow up. Of course it's a little bit dangerous to do circles in a carpark, but so is life. The point of my advice was that you can't learn to ride a bike by listening to the contradictory and confusing advice of hundreds of different people on a forum who are of different height,weight, body proportions, confidence levels, ride different bikes (especially important to remember when someone who rides a GSXR750 is trying to tell someone how to ride a GN250) etc... which makes alot of what they're saying irrelivent... you HAVE to practise, and you ultimately have to teach yourself to ride your own bike.

[MSTRS]

Yes. Carpark circles are the shizz for learning how to avoid obstacles on the road.
NOT!!!

[NDORFN]

Yes. Carpark circles are the shizz for learning how to avoid obstacles on the road.
NOT!!!

Why don't you go learn how to figure-8 your bike in a carpark until she's scraping and see if that improves your abilbity to swerve. You might surprise yourself.

[MSTRS]

Why don't you go learn how to figure-8 your bike in a carpark until she's scraping and see if that improves your abilbity to swerve. You might surprise yourself.

*Sigh*
You just don't get it. What I can or can't do (oh, and I most definitely can) has nothing to do with me giving GOOD advice to a newbie who asked for it.
And what I said about tyre temps and surface condition is all-important. Gradually increasing lean angles in a carpark is all very well. The surface is constant and the tyres heat up to the edges. Nothing like what happens in an emergency situation on the road. Your so-called 'advice' sucks.

[NDORFN]

Works for me. Where I do alot of my riding (country roads surrounding Matamata), swerving is something you have to have a good grip on. There's rabbits, possums and cats, nothing special, but there are also turkeys, pheasants, ferrits etc... like you wouldn't believe!!! I atrribute most of my ability to manouvre my bike abrutbtly around those obstacles to the fact that I pushed my bike to it's limits at slow speed first in a carpark, and progressively transfered that skill to the open road at higher speeds and of course, adjusted technique to suit speed, braking, conditions, suspension load etc... but without having mastered my bike first, I doubt I'd have had the confidence and metal prep to pull it off. Maybe I am way off the general consensus here, but it works and it works fucking well, and I regularly ride on roads where it's a priority skill and is utilised multiple times per ride. This might sound a bit wierd, but I liken my bike to a horse... before I could ride it on the open road, I broke it in in a carpark. She hasn't bucked me off yet.

[BMWST?]

Eek! That sounds like it's going to get a bit complicated for me at the moment! I think I might have to come back to the whole countersteering principles when I've got the basics down properly!

not at all...its all part of the same manouvre.It will all be for nought if you do a big swerve to miss a peice of timber that has just fallen of the truck in front of you only to run off the road because(a you didnt swerve BACK) or b) having swerved back you dint correct in time to stay on the road.Its all a hell of a lot easier in practise.
I tell you what.I have returned to riding recently but in my earlier life i was a beginners and advanced riding instructor.i am quite happy to meet you somewhere and give you some practise run throughs....PM me

[MSTRS]

Works for me.

All that your carpark manoeuvres achieve is to perfect that skill in that situation. And to not be afraid of your bike. What you/your bike can do in a carpark in the sense of lean angles does not translate direct to an emergency situation on the road.

[magicmonkey]

not at all...its all part of the same manouvre.It will all be for nought if you do a big swerve to miss a peice of timber that has just fallen of the truck in front of you only to run off the road because(a you didnt swerve BACK) or b) having swerved back you dint correct in time to stay on the road.Its all a hell of a lot easier in practise.
I tell you what.I have returned to riding recently but in my earlier life i was a beginners and advanced riding instructor.i am quite happy to meet you somewhere and give you some practise run throughs....PM me

That'd be awesome :) At the moment I'm not really confident enough to be riding for miles to get somewhere though, I figure on spending the weekend working on emergency breaking, hill starts and actively coutersteering (rather than leaning) but once I'm more comfortable with that lot I may well take you up on the offer, and fire you a :apint: of course ...

[sinfull]

That'd be awesome :) At the moment I'm not really confident enough to be riding for miles to get somewhere though, I figure on spending the weekend working on emergency breaking, hill starts and actively coutersteering (rather than leaning) but once I'm more comfortable with that lot I may well take you up on the offer, and fire you a :apint: of course ...
The miles that gentleman does on his BM would prolly find him riding past your place on a regular basis ! Fire him a Pm earlier rather than later ! An offer like that from an instructor should not be left till later mate ! Bad habits are hard to reverse ! Enjoy and wellcome to the world of adrenylin !

[PirateJafa]

PLEASE. Any newbies reading NDORFN's posts - IGNORE his faulty advice. It is dangerous.

It's like having a second DangerousBastard on the forum. What heinous sins did we commit to deserve this?

[NDORFN]

All that your carpark manoeuvres achieve is to perfect that skill in that situation. And to not be afraid of your bike. What you/your bike can do in a carpark in the sense of lean angles does not translate direct to an emergency situation on the road.

All? Do you think that learning not to be afraid of your bike is insignificant?

[MSTRS]

MM - listen to the dreaded one, and take up BMWST's generous offer (or any mentor). It is certainly easier to learn (everything) right, first time round.

[MSTRS]

All? Do you think that learning not to be afraid of your bike is insignificant?

Of course not, you pillock. But it won't teach you respect for it. Or it's limits.

[george formby]

There have been some posts on here lately showing video of Gymkhanas, the best swerving I have ever seen. It's sooooo hard to describe the subtletys of turning a bike.
Physically look where you want go, the weight of your head & shoulders moving away from centre will begin to tip the bike. You must have a steady throttle, leave the clutch alone until you have good balance & feel, same for the front brake.
The only time you actually control a bike (cars too) is under power. Neutral throttle & the vehicles inertia & dynamics take over, on the brakes it's all about friction (grip) & dynamics. If you have no power, the bike topples over.
A little body language, using your weight & pushing on the inside footrest can help & keeps the bike stable. The slower your going the more input you need from the bars, the more you turn them. Try feet up tightening radius turns until you can do a u turn on full lock comfortably. Good attitude, have fun.

[MSTRS]

There have been some posts on here lately showing video of Gymkhanas, the best swerving I have ever seen. It's sooooo hard to describe the subtletys of turning a bike.
Physically look where you want go, the weight of your head & shoulders moving away from centre will begin to tip the bike. You must have a steady throttle, leave the clutch alone until you have good balance & feel, same for the front brake.
The only time you actually control a bike (cars too) is under power. Neutral throttle & the vehicles inertia & dynamics take over, on the brakes it's all about friction (grip) & dynamics. If you have no power, the bike topples over.
A little body language, using your weight & pushing on the outside footrest can help & keeps the bike stable. The slower your going the more input you need from the bars, the more you turn them. Try feet up tightening radius turns until you can do a u turn on full lock comfortably. Good attitude, have fun.
Fixed that for ya, but good post.

[NighthawkNZ]

Ok, so I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here as I still need to get emergency braking sorted out properly but I'm working on that, honest!

The idea has hit me that after I've put in a few more hours practice and I'm comfortable with emergency stops I should probably find my way to a car park and practice swerves before getting out on the road properly (I know, I know, I'm being an anally retentive noob:Pokey:). The problem is that although there is a bit of information on t'interwebs about when to swerve, there is precious little information about how to actually do it. I'm told that it involves 2 sharp counter-steered turns but that's about as much as I can glean on the subject, could anyone shed some light on the actual 'how' of swerving?

Every Situtation different... although learning how to stop quickly is up there...

Some situtations it is better to power out of and away from, some its better to server and avoid, others to avoid and try not to put yourself into the situation (and that is not always possible) and other situations it is bets to emergancy stop... Depends on the situation you are in at which is the best to do and it is a snap decission

Sudden servering can put you into another situation you didn't see or want to be in, oncoming traffic, more stuff on the road from the first situation, loss of control ditch the gap wasn't as big as you thought... but it depends all on the orginal reason you are serving to miss... it the kid running after his ball in a suburan at 50kph, or a 20 cage pile up on the motorway and 100kph

Example kid runs out, you serve to miss but hit mum who you didn't see who was chasing to catch kid... 20 cage pile up on motorway is 20 or just 2 their is that much wreckage its hard to tell can you see a safe path through the shripnel and wrekage

Emergancy breaking while we should know how to do it can be just as bad in traffic if the cage behind is to close, or not watching the road talking or texting on cell phone, changing the radio or CD, yelling at the kids to STFU, spilt coffee on his shirt, eating an icecream, or he was get a BJ and does really care... or any one of thousand reasons the driver wasn't consentrating on the road ahead...

[NDORFN]

Of course not, you pillock. But it won't teach you respect for it. Or it's limits.

It'll teach you carpark respect and carpark limits, which is the best starting point. It's a foundation, not a fundamental. I never said swerving can be learnt by doing 8's in a carpark, I said it was a first step, and that ultimately, practise, not theory will make the rider. If you start at low speeds and work up, you'll develop a comprehensive understanding of the scaling up of effects per speed or per braking effort etc..., that scaling up becomes a subconscious effort, and a critical skill in dealing with all situations under all speeds. Without a scale to work off (ie. slowest extreme is in a carpark, fastest extreme is on the track) how is the brain supposed to develop that subconscious ability to determine in an instant the right degree of reaction to suit the speed?

[george formby]

That'd be awesome :) At the moment I'm not really confident enough to be riding for miles to get somewhere though, I figure on spending the weekend working on emergency breaking, hill starts and actively coutersteering (rather than leaning) but once I'm more comfortable with that lot I may well take you up on the offer, and fire you a :apint: of course ...

I'm no guru but I would put counter steering at the bottom of your list. This is not gospel but my own experience, I only feel I am counter steering in two situations. 1st to instigate a turn by using centrifugal force. Your wheels act like gyros & by gently using your weight or a touch on the bars in the direction opposite to your turn, the gyros try to pull the bike upright, at this point you use the momentum to lean the bike in the direction you want to go. This only really takes effect at speed & is intuitive not a conscious action for me.
2nd reason, When cornering hard at a significant lean I weight my outside peg & weight the bars against the turn to keep the front wheel from tucking under. It's an 18' & can feel quite vague when pushed. Again this intuitive & has taken me decades to reach this point. Concentrate on balance, throttle & clutch control.

[MSTRS]

. For example, learning how far you can lean your bike before a peg or exhaust hits and levers your wheels out can only be achieved by actually doing that, round and round in circles, knee out, until THUMP... and you're lying next to your bike having with an education you can't get any other way.Why don't you go learn how to figure-8 your bike in a carpark until she's scraping and see if that improves your abilbity to swerve. You might surprise yourself.
I never said swerving can be learnt by doing 8's in a carpark

Oh really?

[NDORFN]

Oh really?

Yeah really. Read that again with a little less anger and you'll notice I was clearly implying that it'll improve your ability, and that I did not at any point say that it will teach you everything you need to know. You've really got it in for me haven't you? You went off your nut at me suggesting something to practise, but another member posted the same thing and you called it a good post. Get down off your ME pedistal for a moment and read the thread... it reads like EVERY other thread where a beginner asks advice... fraught with a myriad of contradicting statements from experienced riders and ME's. Ironically, the beginners just get to the point where they're so confused that they think "Fuck this, I'll just teach myself"... which is why I suggested doing exactly that in the first place.

[george formby]

Fixed that for ya, but good post.

Cheers, I should have mentioned inside peg to start, outside to keep balance. Your on to it.:niceone:

[magicmonkey]

Well, frankly guys, this is the internet! People are going to diagree and that's all good. As it is, I've got some really good pointers and heard some different points of view so I'm as happy as a monkey with an acorn :niceone:

[MSTRS]

You've really got it in for me haven't you?

Nope. Just your so-called advice. Nothing wrong with playing in a carpark, doing what you said (8's and peg scraping circles etc), But it's not good advice for a newbie wanting to know about emergency avoidance countersteering procedures.



You went off your nut at me suggesting something to practise, but another member posted the same thing and you called it a good post.
But he wasn't suggesting that finding his/bike's limits in a carpark was good for object avoidance.

[NDORFN]

Nope. Just your so-called advice. Nothing wrong with playing in a carpark, doing what you said (8's and peg scraping circles etc), But it's not good advice for a newbie wanting to know about emergency avoidance countersteering procedures.

Ok well since you're the ME and I am clearly in need of advice, can you please explain exatly what is wrong with learning how to control your own bike through the range of it's vertical to horizontal extremes at low speed as a step toward and foundation of learning how to execute a good swerve at varying faster speeds?

[MSTRS]

Ok well since you're the ME and I am clearly in need of advice, can you please explain exatly what is wrong with learning how to control your own bike through the range of it's vertical to horizontal extremes at low speed as a step toward and foundation of learning how to execute a good swerve at varying faster speeds?

There's nothing wrong with learning good, low-speed handling skills. In fact, I recommend it. And there's nothing wrong with learning object avoidance through emergency countersteering. But neither skill is dependant on the other.
They are 2 separate skills. I know people who can countersteer with the best of them...but they can't do a U-turn.

[NDORFN]

There's nothing wrong with learning good, low-speed handling skills. In fact, I recommend it. And there's nothing wrong with learning object avoidance through emergency countersteering. But neither skill is dependant on the other.
They are 2 separate skills. I know people who can countersteer with the best of them...but they can't do a U-turn.

We're totally misunderstanding each other and I think it has alot to do with our idea of what "low-speed" handling is. In the carpark I learned in, I could pull up to 50kph circles... and of course very low speed circles. I learned the varying speeds relative to varying radius that countersteering came into play and turning into the corner became redundant. Having started with circles of different speeds and radius to 8's, to slalom, to offset slalom to swerving etc... then encorporating varying levels of braking into the equation in each circumstance, I went out onto the open road and headed for the turkey flocks and pheasants with the confidence and skill to manouvre my bike... and the ability to instinctively adjust for speeds greater than the 50kph in the carpark. I don't see how that ability can explained to someone. You have to "train your brain" by actually doing it. By the way, I never actually fell off doing circles. I was told to circle as hard as I could until I levered my bike out, but I couldn't... I could however cut the throttle and fall off! I'm sure it's possible to lever your bike out but who cares, the amazing thing was how tight I could corner, how hard I could lean. I was blown away. And that was the lesson... it was never intended that I would actually lever it out, but that in the process of trying to I would discover what a bike can actually do in a corner, which was way beyond what I thought possible, and a little less than I'd just been told. It really helped with digging it in around overshot corners (used to do that ALL the time when I was a beginner until that lesson), and with digging it in on swerves these days! All the countersteering, weight distribution, braking etc... it just happened, subconsciously, from the day I left the carpark. I would never advise somebody to go round in circles until they levered themselves out if I actually thought that's what would happen. I know it wouldn't, and I know that the profound effect that the excercise has on a rider's confidence is worth a few scrapes on the pegs. For me it was like a rite-of-passage.

[Nasty]

We're totally misunderstanding each other and I think it has alot to do with our idea of what "low-speed" handling is. In the carpark I learned in, I could pull up to 50kph circles... and of course very low speed circles. I learned the varying speeds relative to varying radius that countersteering came into play and turning into the corner became redundant. Having started with circles of different speeds and radius to 8's, to slalom, to offset slalom to swerving etc... then encorporating varying levels of braking into the equation in each circumstance, I went out onto the open road and headed for the turkey flocks and pheasants with the confidence and skill to manouvre my bike... and the ability to instinctively adjust for speeds greater than the 50kph in the carpark. I don't see how that ability can explained to someone. You have to "train your brain" by actually doing it. By the way, I never actually fell off doing circles. I was told to circle as hard as I could until I levered my bike out, but I couldn't... not without cutting the throttle and dropping it from a standstill anyway. And that was the lesson... it was never intended that I would actually lever it out, but that in the process of trying I would discover what a bike can actually do in a corner, which was way beyond what I thought possible, and a little less than I'd just been told. It really helped with digging it in around overshot corners (used to do that ALL the time when I was a beginner until that lesson), and with digging it in on swerves these days! All the countersteering, weight distribution, braking etc... it just happened, subconsciously, from the day I left the carpark.

I don't think you are misunderstanding each other at all .... I think you ride somewhere where you have things like livestock on the road and learnt how you wanted to ... rather interesting way of learning .. but not something I would do.

Scrapping pegs etc as a newbie while in a carpark ... in the middle of Wellington ... really not a good thing ... in fact on the bike he is on, probably not at all recommended ....

Going out with a mentor - discussing how to do things - and then utilising their guidance while out with them ... a much smarter approach.

BTW haven't seen a flock of anything down here - but plenty of wet slippery man hole covers etc.

[NDORFN]

I don't think you are misunderstanding each other at all .... I think you ride somewhere where you have things like livestock on the road and learnt how you wanted to ... rather interesting way of learning .. but not something I would do.

Scrapping pegs etc as a newbie while in a carpark ... in the middle of Wellington ... really not a good thing ... in fact on the bike he is on, probably not at all recommended ....

Going out with a mentor - discussing how to do things - and then utilising their guidance while out with them ... a much smarter approach.

BTW haven't seen a flock of anything down here - but plenty of wet slippery man hole covers etc.

I totally agree that physically going out with a mentor is the best way to learn, if it's available. You're on your own bike for starters so it's all releveant.

[MSTRS]

We're totally misunderstanding each other and I think it has alot to do with our idea of what "low-speed" handling is. In the carpark I learned in, I could pull up to 50kph circles... and of course very low speed circles. I learned the varying speeds relative to varying radius that countersteering came into play and turning into the corner became redundant. Having started with circles of different speeds and radius to 8's, to slalom, to offset slalom to swerving etc... then encorporating varying levels of braking into the equation in each circumstance, I went out onto the open road and headed for the turkey flocks and pheasants with the confidence and skill to manouvre my bike... and the ability to instinctively adjust for speeds greater than the 50kph in the carpark. I don't see how that ability can explained to someone. You have to "train your brain" by actually doing it. By the way, I never actually fell off doing circles. I was told to circle as hard as I could until I levered my bike out, but I couldn't... I could however cut the throttle and fall off! I'm sure it's possible to lever your bike out but who cares, the amazing thing was how tight I could corner, how hard I could lean. I was blown away. And that was the lesson... it was never intended that I would actually lever it out, but that in the process of trying to I would discover what a bike can actually do in a corner, which was way beyond what I thought possible, and a little less than I'd just been told. It really helped with digging it in around overshot corners (used to do that ALL the time when I was a beginner until that lesson), and with digging it in on swerves these days! All the countersteering, weight distribution, braking etc... it just happened, subconsciously, from the day I left the carpark. I would never advise somebody to go round in circles until they levered themselves out if I actually thought that's what would happen. I know it wouldn't, and I know that the profound effect that the excercise has on a rider's confidence is worth a few scrapes on the pegs. For me it was like a rite-of-passage.

Stop fudging. That was not exactly what you were saying in earlier posts. You've obviously done an advanced handing course (or RRRS), and that's great. Good for you (and anyone else that does one). The OP is not up to doing that yet, nor can they go out and practice it without the instructor/s on hand, displaying what is expected. The other thing about doing one of those courses is they are great for gaining confidence in the bike's abilities, but someone who's done it is not necessarily in a position to advise others. There are steps to be taken in a certain order, for any of it to make sense.

[The Stranger]

Ok, so I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here

I'm told that it involves 2 sharp counter-steered turns


2? Why not 1 or 3 - depending on the situation.
Are you confident with counter steering yet?
If not, perhaps you are getting ahead of yourself and should sort that first.

[NDORFN]

Stop fudging. That was not exactly what you were saying in earlier posts. You've obviously done an advanced handing course (or RRRS), and that's great. Good for you (and anyone else that does one). The OP is not up to doing that yet, nor can they go out and practice it without the instructor/s on hand, displaying what is expected. The other thing about doing one of those courses is they are great for gaining confidence in the bike's abilities, but someone who's done it is not necessarily in a position to advise others. There are steps to be taken in a certain order, for any of it to make sense.

I've never done an advanced course. I started in the driveway, progressed to the carpark next door, and then on to the road, where swerving is as much a part of the ride as the straights and corners.

[magicmonkey]

2? Why not 1 or 3 - depending on the situation.
Are you confident with counter steering yet?
If not, perhaps you are getting ahead of yourself and should sort that first.

I've can measure my experience in hours, not days or weeks! As in, I've probably only spent somewhere around around 12 hours on a bike. At the moment I'm not confident with anything at all, although I'm not finding it quite as hard as I thought I would.

I know I'm getting ahead of myself with this but I've thought that getting the emergency stuff out of the way will help me feel more confident and as I'm going to be spending most of the next 2 days practicing I think it's reasonable to think that I'll be happier with emergency braking and will have a little experience countersteering by then and I'd like to have an idea of what I want to be doing after that, look where you want to go and all that ;)

[Maha]

In conjunction with learning to swerve, aim to improve your situational awareness so the possibility of needing to swerve is reduced.

Yes indeed, pretty easy really aint it?
Even the odd car jumping out of a side can be avoided if you are fully aware of your space and surroundings.

[george formby]

I've can measure my experience in hours, not days or weeks! As in, I've probably only spent somewhere around around 12 hours on a bike. At the moment I'm not confident with anything at all, although I'm not finding it quite as hard as I thought I would.

I know I'm getting ahead of myself with this but I've thought that getting the emergency stuff out of the way will help me feel more confident and as I'm going to be spending most of the next 2 days practicing I think it's reasonable to think that I'll be happier with emergency braking and will have a little experience countersteering by then and I'd like to have an idea of what I want to be doing after that, look where you want to go and all that ;)

If I may be so bold, don't sweat the detail. Your obviously using your noggin being here but the bottom line is time on your bike. A weekend in a carpark will only help you so much. When I first had to ride on the road I was nervous as hell, during my first training session it was that bad that I either looped or stalled my bike just trying to get rolling. The instructor pulled me to one side to chill out & after the session finished gave up his time for some one on one training. His encouragement alone gave me huge confidence. Perhaps a forum member could do similar for you, not so much training but encouragement. Everything you have stated you want to learn here will take time, go out & do it a bit at a time. Set yourself up to succeed, think about routes, traffic, weather, anything that will pre-occupy you rather than just enjoying getting to know your bike. Go & ride the bloody thing & sieve the comments in this thread for the many golden nuggets that have been left.
Have fun!:niceone:

[magicmonkey]

If I may be so bold, don't sweat the detail. Your obviously using your noggin being here but the bottom line is time on your bike. A weekend in a carpark will only help you so much. When I first had to ride on the road I was nervous as hell, during my first training session it was that bad that I either looped or stalled my bike just trying to get rolling. The instructor pulled me to one side to chill out & after the session finished gave up his time for some one on one training. His encouragement alone gave me huge confidence. Perhaps a forum member could do similar for you, not so much training but encouragement. Everything you have stated you want to learn here will take time, go out & do it a bit at a time. Set yourself up to succeed, think about routes, traffic, weather, anything that will pre-occupy you rather than just enjoying getting to know your bike. Go & ride the bloody thing & sieve the comments in this thread for the many golden nuggets that have been left.
Have fun!:niceone:

yeah, I completely get the time on bike thing. I fact, I'm just annoyed that I'm at work during the day and have to meet a new housemate in the evening! Other than that I'll be spending most of the weekend on 2 wheels. I'll probably be back here on Monday with a completely different perspective and a whole new barrel of questions ;)

Still, at least I'll have a slightly better idea of what I'm talking about by then!

[MSTRS]

I've never done an advanced course. I started in the driveway, progressed to the carpark next door, and then on to the road, where swerving is as much a part of the ride as the straights and corners.

I hope you mean 'the possibility of needing to swerve to avoid a threat is always present when riding' ??
The way that reads suggests that you swerve all over the place, all the time. In which case, I strongly suggest you do some work on your riding ability or observation skills...:Pokey:

[NDORFN]

I hope you mean 'the possibility of needing to swerve to avoid a threat is always present when riding' ??
The way that reads suggests that you swerve all over the place, all the time. In which case, I strongly suggest you do some work on your riding ability or observation skills...:Pokey:

Haha yeah I meant swerving to avoid all the obstacles.