Breaking the rear free?

[st00ji]

so, theres this corner that i go through every day. its a greater than 90 degrees right hander away from a set of lights, which i almost always start from a splitting position. im in the habit of giving it a bit of poke off the line, so im well clear of the cages behind me. today i drifted to the outside of the two lanes of cars (i usually choose my lane based on which side i think is going to be slower to get round the corner) and the rear tyre let go on me. it all happened pretty fast, and only briefly - didnt even have time to get a fright, just a quick moment of 'is this the start of a lowside' and in fact as the bike regained traction and stood up i found myself wondering if it had looked cool :bash:

as mentioned i come through this corner every day, so maybe i've just been getting more and more confident every time without noticing... but i didnt feel like i was pushing it at all. im pretty sure i didnt run out of tyre either, had a touch of boot on the ground a couple of times and still got a bit of chicken strip left. i did think i might have been leaning forward a little more than usual, which may have lifted just enough weight off the back? the roads were relatively dry, and looked clean enough - though to be fair i wasnt paying particular attention.

so i guess what im wondering is, what kinds of situations can cause this to happen? in terms of cornering technique and body position etc - wondering what i might have done wrong basically.

cheers!

[Katman]

and in fact as the bike regained traction and stood up i found myself wondering if it had looked cool

Grow a fuckin' brain.

[st00ji]

thanks for the constructive reply! possession of a brain does not automatically enable knowledge though?

[sharky]

Something on the road would be my guess.

[Squid69]

so, theres this corner that i go through every day. its a greater than 90 degrees right hander away from a set of lights, which i almost always start from a splitting position. im in the habit of giving it a bit of poke off the line, so im well clear of the cages behind me. today i drifted to the outside of the two lanes of cars (i usually choose my lane based on which side i think is going to be slower to get round the corner) and the rear tyre let go on me. it all happened pretty fast, and only briefly - didnt even have time to get a fright, just a quick moment of 'is this the start of a lowside' and in fact as the bike regained traction and stood up i found myself wondering if it had looked cool :bash:

as mentioned i come through this corner every day, so maybe i've just been getting more and more confident every time without noticing... but i didnt feel like i was pushing it at all. im pretty sure i didnt run out of tyre either, had a touch of boot on the ground a couple of times and still got a bit of chicken strip left. i did think i might have been leaning forward a little more than usual, which may have lifted just enough weight off the back? the roads were relatively dry, and looked clean enough - though to be fair i wasnt paying particular attention.

so i guess what im wondering is, what kinds of situations can cause this to happen? in terms of cornering technique and body position etc - wondering what i might have done wrong basically.

cheers!

03) Put on your R1 spec sandles

09) Stick your toes into the bike.
P10) Put your shoulder into the corner.
13) Give it some stick





19)

151592

[vifferman]

Outside of the lanes? My guess would be that because people tend to cut corners, the road (despite it looking clean) had dust'n'dirt'n'crap on it. Doesn't take much to break traction, especially combined with acceleration.

[Squiggles]

though to be fair i wasnt paying particular attention.

Start paying attention ;)

[st00ji]

sorry i think i phrased that badly - i meant the outer of the two lanes, but in the right hand tyre track or thereabouts in that lane.

[st00ji]

Grow a fuckin' brain.

nice edit there, it does add some clarity to your otherwise pointless post. i did notice you left out the bash emoticon that was in my original post, with which i was trying to denote the fact that i was not particularly proud of this thought / realized that it was inappropriate

[st00ji]

Start paying attention ;)

yeah fair call. i do scan the road surface ahead, i guess what i mean is i wasnt paying any more attention than usual (which is not zero)

i dont believe there was anything on the road however

[Flip]

Probably overloaded the available traction on the rear tyre. Cornering plus acceleration forces being greater than the friction on the road.

Apply power as you are exiting the corner rather than in it should do the trick.

[paddy]

Grow a fuckin' brain.

That's a bit harsh. What did he do to warrant that?

[ital916]

Im guessing it was some crap on the road, I doubt the power of your bike caused the rear to spin or break traction, that or you had your foot on the rear brake and locked it.

Just ride more cautiously around town where there is a build up of crap on the corners.

Oh and though katman is a little blunt in delivery, his messages always have the right heart behind em. So grow a fuckin brain mate, be more sensible and you will live long and enjoy motorcycling ;)

[st00ji]

Probably overloaded the available traction on the rear tyre. Cornering plus acceleration forces being greater than the friction on the road.

Apply power as you are exiting the corner rather than in it should do the trick.

yeah, i guess the reason im posting is because it has not happened before, so im wondering what i unwittingly did differently this time around. like i said i certainly didnt feel like i was being particularly aggressive about it, or at least no more aggressive than usual. which is not super. hopefully that makes sense :D

[st00ji]

Im guessing it was some crap on the road, I doubt the power of your bike caused the rear to spin or break traction, that or you had your foot on the rear brake and locked it.

Just ride more cautiously around town where there is a build up of crap on the corners.

Oh and though katman is a little blunt in delivery, his messages always have the right heart behind em. So grow a fuckin brain mate, be more sensible and you will live long and enjoy motorcycling ;)

yeah trust me i appreciate that, i really dont feel like i was being un-sensible - and i wouldnt / dont mind being told to grow a fuckin brain, but it would be nice to hear something a bit more informative to go with it. i was a little surprised actually because although i expected damnation from katman if he happened to post, he normally has a bit more to say too. perhaps all the telling off has worn him down?

[Katman]

perhaps all the telling off has worn him down?

Think again.

:msn-wink:

[st00ji]

its a post but it doesnt say anything :P

[Katman]

Neither does this one.

[ital916]

yeah trust me i appreciate that, i really dont feel like i was being un-sensible - and i wouldnt / dont mind being told to grow a fuckin brain, but it would be nice to hear something a bit more informative to go with it. i was a little surprised actually because although i expected damnation from katman if he happened to post, he normally has a bit more to say too. perhaps all the telling off has worn him down?

another 2c worth. What I always do, is err on the side of caution. Go into a corner with heaps of extra left over so if you need to stop you can, need to lean her over more you can. It takes a little bit of the adrenaline rush away but I like the increased safety margin. They have tracks for people to fang around riding at 100% on.

Even on corners I know well, I never push too hard.

I guess that why everyone overtakes me, before we get to 25km/hr corners ;)

[Kiwi Graham]

Grow a fuckin' brain.


thanks for the constructive reply! possession of a brain does not automatically enable knowledge though?

Hi st00ji,
you have just been rudely introduced to Katman; he does not provide advice for new riders, he does however provide a diatribe of abuse in the form of one liners and preaches its his way or no way in his threads.............the ignore button is your friend.


Put simply the situation happend because you gave the rear tyre to much to do with the grip it had available to do it with. Less gas and a good appraisal of the surface your about to use will avoid this happening again.

Rear wheel power slides do 'look impressive' but best left to exiting corners on the circuit and in reality are best avoided because it slows your lap times down. Grip is what you want, what you experienced was a lack of grip. Keep it sunny side up bud.

[beyond]

A little too heavy on the rear brake perchance? Will do it everytime if you are leaned over.

Agree with Kiwi Grahams statement re Katman.... hell, he may mean well but is certainly no teacher.

[st00ji]

im not sure my bike is capable of delivering that much power to be honest! perhaps i got the mix just wrong this time around. i have no plans to do so again, hence this topic with me wanting to try and work out exactly what it was i did wrong in the first place!

i have seen katmans handywork before...

so basically what im hearing is, too much lean and too much throttle? where im perched on the bike is relatively unimportant?

[Katman]

you have just been rudely introduced to Katman; he does not provide advice for new riders, he does however provide a diatribe of abuse in the form of one liners and preaches its his way or no way in his threads.............the ignore button is your friend.


You can powder his arse if you like.

I'll confine myself to attempting to instill a sense of responsibility.

[st00ji]

'grow a fuckin brain' instills no responsibility. nothing you've said instills anything apart from an urge to ignore... yet i resist because some of the things you say (in other threads) hint at a great deal of experience. im old enough to realise the value of experience, hence why im here asking for the advice of others more experienced than me.

so contribute to my thread, or go away! please :)

beyond, i was not touching the rear brake (and almost never do, unless its low speed or im really trying to haul the bike up fast - is that wrong?)

PS i powder my own arse well enough, this is about riding bikes

[avgas]

Did ya check the tyre pressures? They fix everything mentioned on KB - so before you start a thread about how to counter steer, why harley riders dont wave, or evolution - check ya
pressure.

But on a serious note - sounds to me you need to find the limits of your bike. All a part of being a learner.

Find a nice calm car park, and give it some shit.

If you want - I am happy to help a bit if you come to me at St Lukes

[beyond]

'grow a fuckin brain' instills no responsibility. nothing you've said instills anything apart from an urge to ignore... yet i resist because some of the things you say (in other threads) hint at a great deal of experience. im old enough to realise the value of experience, hence why im here asking for the advice of others more experienced than me.

so contribute to my thread, or go away! please :)

beyond, i was not touching the rear brake (and almost never do, unless its low speed or im really trying to haul the bike up fast - is that wrong?)

PS i powder my own arse well enough, this is about riding bikes

Nah, you're ok with the rear brake. Mines a big heavy bike and under hard braking the rear is useless on mine except for hill starts gravel and rain. I stay off mine cos the moment I touch it in a hard corner, I'm drifting and not by choice :)

As Kiwi Graham point out you may have got on the gas a little early. You only get so much grip and if you're using some up by throttling out of the corner too early, somethings gotta go.

[Flip]

yeah, i guess the reason im posting is because it has not happened before, so im wondering what i unwittingly did differently this time around. like i said i certainly didnt feel like i was being particularly aggressive about it, or at least no more aggressive than usual. which is not super. hopefully that makes sense :D

Perfect sense. As you get more skills you go faster until you reach the limits of the bike, or road, or traction. Most experienced riders bin it 6 months after they get a new bike for these reasons.

The front steps out usually under brakes, the back steps out under power. If you balance the power to zero at the apex of the corner there will be more friction available for cornering and you might find you can go a bit faster.

It was great that you did not fall off it. Do you have trail bike experience?

[st00ji]

fwiw if i dont get on the gas into the corner then i dont go anywhere - its a standing start from a set of lights, straight into the corner

[Katman]

'grow a fuckin brain' instills no responsibility. nothing you've said instills anything apart from an urge to ignore... yet i resist because some of the things you say (in other threads) hint at a great deal of experience.

Learn to get from A to B alive. (And ride accordingly).

[st00ji]

fwiw if i dont get on the gas into the corner then i dont go anywhere - its a standing start from a set of lights, straight into the corner

flip - i guess that scans, apart from the 'balance the power to zero at apex' - are you meaning i should be rolling off the throttle through the corner to neutral at apex? i've never really thought about it but i considering it now i believe this is how i generally corner, apart from this one corner which as mentioned is a standing start. i dont have any trail bike experience, and i was pretty pleased about not falling off as well.

avgas - i could be interested in a bit of carpark time, and could easily come to st lukes - but what do you propose i do? finding the limits sounds a lot like deliberately falling off :D

katman - staying alive is good, i like that. any suggestions on what i could do more specifically in this situation?

[Hahn]

Surely you can figure this one out for yourself.... I think katman's statement is valid if not for the safety part but for what you were up to at the time.
i.e
Were you at 18000rpm leaned fully over by chance?
And what was the road surface like?
Only you will really no the answer.

[Katman]

fwiw if i dont get on the gas into the corner then i dont go anywhere - its a standing start from a set of lights, straight into the corner



If you get on the gas into the corner you have a very real risk of being fucked over.

Go to a track if you want to explore your limits. If you want to survive on the road, grow a brain.

[st00ji]

Surely you can figure this one out for yourself.... I think katman's statement is valid if not for the safety part but for what you were up to at the time.
i.e
Were you at 18000rpm leaned fully over by chance?
And what was the road surface like?
Only you will really no the answer.

i've got my theories, which i mentioned in my original post. but im pretty new to this game, so was keen to hear from others.

the bike was certainly spinning a few revs, maybe 14k. i've found that changing to second mid corner is a really good way to get a wobble on, so im kinda stuck in first till the bike starts to straighten up a bit. as i said i thought the road surface was fine. as for fully leaned over... well, its a decent corner so i defintely had a lean on, but was short of my version of max attack (which is pretty mild anyway)

[mashman]

so i guess what im wondering is, what kinds of situations can cause this to happen? in terms of cornering technique and body position etc - wondering what i might have done wrong basically.

cheers!

It happens sometimes. We will miss things occasionally if we drift, enjoy the ride and there'll be no problem.

[avgas]

flip - i guess that scans, apart from the 'balance the power to zero at apex' - are you meaning i should be rolling off the throttle through the corner to neutral at apex? i've never really thought about it but i considering it now i believe this is how i generally corner, apart from this one corner which as mentioned is a standing start. i dont have any trail bike experience, and i was pretty pleased about not falling off as well.

avgas - i could be interested in a bit of carpark time, and could easily come to st lukes - but what do you propose i do? finding the limits sounds a lot like deliberately falling off :D

Not the bikes limits - yours. You will find the bike can slide continuously if you try hard enough.
The only reason why I have a bit of experience here, is powering out of corners is what I do to get shits and giggles.
I live a very sheltered life lol
Control is only in the riders hands - I just prefer to ride with a slightly loose grip haha
Let me know when / if your keen
Cheers
-Stew

[Juzz976]

yeh funny that leaning down on a more then 90 corners away from lights in 1st gear at 14,000 revs has the potential for a slip.

For a start I'd practice shifting smoothly so that your not around peak torque in first around a corner, all it takes is a minor twitch to set you off.

maybe check your throttle cable next chance you get as they have been known to do funny things. There are other things that can cause this, you may have fairly open throttle and your engine will at times fluctuate in torque, sometimes alot.

Watch the road surface, I once had a car pull out infront of me and swerved to avoid, I collected a dog poo in the process. First thing i did was pull over and get that off my tire.

Lucky escape tho, and I'm glad your seeking advice too. Just be a bit more sensible on the road especially around traffic, closing the trottle at those revs in first will aslo break traction and you have very little rev left for escape.