Napier Gunman ACC

[Ronin]

Here's something worth arguing about....


http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3084866/Gunmans-partner-seeks-10-000-ACC-payout



The partner of the Napier gunman who shot dead a policeman during a three-day siege says she is entitled to the nearly $10,000 in ACC compensation she was awarded after he apparently took his own life.

Jan Molenaar, 51, killed Senior Constable Len Snee and injured two others and a civilian when officers went to his Chaucer Rd home in May with a cannabis search warrant.

The siege ended when Molenaar, who had collected a cache of military-style weapons, was found dead with a suspected self-inflicted shotgun wound.

His former partner Delwyn Keefe has since admitted selling cannabis from the house over a five-year period and is due to be sentenced next month.

Ms Keefe received a lump sum of more than $5000 from ACC to help pay for his funeral and a "survivor grant" of around $4000, the Weekend Herald reported.

She said she did not believe the actions of her former partner should have excluded her from the compensation.

"It's no different to anyone (else) who commits suicide. I'm entitled to it. I shouldn't be persecuted because of what Jan did."

The ACC entitlement for suicide was introduced by the Labour Government in 2008, although the National Government plans to axe the compensation under proposed legislation before Parliament.

Ms Keefe thought cutting the compensation was a "silly idea" as it helped pay for Molenaar's $7000 funeral. She is also fighting to keep the home she shared with Molenaar, which the Solicitor-General is attempting to seize.

[scumdog]

I see ACC has paid out and is likely to pay out more to the drug-dealing partner of the cop-shooting loonie Molenaar.

To assist with funeral yadda yadda yadda...cry me a river:rolleyes:

The freakin' idjit didn't ACCIDENTLY shoot himself.:mad:

And she sure as hell ain't suffered no 'accident'

[ynot slow]

Re house seizure,ya think she didn't know he was into selling dope?Go the seizure guys,give her the ACC money then ask her to pay when she's sentanced.

[Ronin]

Mods, I started a similar thread, could you merge them please?

Whups sorry bro. Didn't see it.

[ready4whatever]

Suicide isn't an accident why should ACC use our money.

[Ronin]

Suicide isn't an accident why should ACC use our money.

OK, I need to clarify a little. I'm not up for debating the whole Suicide/ACC thing in general.

However, This dude topped him self in the commission of a crime. She has admitted dealing drugs (hence the seizure). The dealing is the reason the place was raided in the first place. Why the hell should she gain from it? If she hadn't lost cash and the house because of it, would she be arguing about it?

[ready4whatever]

If she didnt have over 500 tinnies in the house, this is benifiting her

[sinned]

Suicide isn't an accident why should ACC use our money.
Because in 2008 Labour decided it could and then didn't consider where the additional funds would come from. Just another mess to clean up.

[Tank]

Suicide isn't an accident why should ACC use our money.

Because the beading heart labour party (despite knowing that $$$ was short and outgoings long) added suicide for payments in 2008.

Fucks me off Goff getting up there all the time - its his bunch of idiots that made ACC the mess it is.

So next time he is at a meeting saying what a great biker he is - ask him why he thinks our hard earned $$$$ is spent on things like this

[Indiana_Jones]

The siege ended when Molenaar, who had collected a cache of military-style weapons, was found dead with a suspected self-inflicted shotgun wound.


You don't get much more 'military-style' then a sawn-off side by side and other guns with little bits of plastic slapped on it......

-Indy

[Skyryder]

If suicide was not part of ACC those that are bitching about it would still be bitching about if it was not.

Suicide 'is' an accident, it's not the end result but the cause.


Skyryder

[p.dath]

Just for your interest, the Woodhouse Report recommend that self-inflicted injuries should have no compensation.

http://www.library.auckland.ac.nz/data/woodhouse/woodhouse6.pdf, section 289(f):

Injury which has been deliberately self-inflicted should not
be the subject of compensation.

[Indiana_Jones]

If one willingly puts a shottie in his mouth, it is no accident, it's not like it went off when he was cleaning it....or was it?

-Indy

[StoneY]

Because in 2008 Labour decided it could and then didn't consider where the additional funds would come from. Just another mess to clean up.

Umm wrong, suicide family support was around way back in the early 90's, not just since 2008 my friend

My in-laws have close and personal experience there

[Ronin]

If suicide was not part of ACC those that are bitching about it would still be bitching about if it was not.

Suicide 'is' an accident, it's not the end result but the cause.


Skyryder

Like I said. The Suicide/ACC debate is a different kettle of fish.

This woman has had the funeral grant and a survivor grant paid to her. That's all she should ever get. Not a cent more.

[sinned]

If suicide was not part of ACC those that are bitching about it would still be bitching about if it was not.

Suicide 'is' an accident, it's not the end result but the cause.


Skyryder
Let me see if I understand this! You are saying that suicide is the cause of an accident. The definition of accident is, "an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss" How can suicide be unintentional?

ACC was set up as a no fault scheme and replaced a right to sue in the case of an accident. So prior to the ACC system who would sue when a suicide occured?

Sorry mate, I don't follow your logic - but I think I know your agenda.

[StoneY]

Sucide is no accident but the survivors are sure victims.

I am undecided on this one, cant say fair or foul to be honest
I agree with supporting the victime, eg the survivors, but cant see a bulk payout from ACC being justified

Councelling services definitely, maybe a finance plan to assist with funeral (recoverable no interest like student loan) but not a payout as such

[p.dath]

So prior to the ACC system who would sue when a suicide occured?

If this was the USA, you'd probably sue the maker of the knife, the person who installed the floor you landed on, your neighbour for not stopping you, etc :lol:

Luckily we have ACC. But I agree you and Woodhouse, self inflicted injuries should not be covered.

Don't forget we still have a social welfare system to assist those that can't. There is no reason for remaining family to starve to death, or have no where to live.

[Tank]

Sucide is no accident but the survivors are sure victims.

I am undecided on this one, cant say fair or foul to be honest
I agree with supporting the victime, eg the survivors, but cant see a bulk payout from ACC being justified

Councelling services definitely, maybe a finance plan to assist with funeral (recoverable no interest like student loan) but not a payout as such

True - at the moment - The family of a hard working dad who drops dead from a heart attack gets nothing. But a cop murdering drug dealers wife (who also sells drugs) - gets 000's.

Sorry. Perhaps if more of the people knew the mess that they would leave ther families in - they might not bite the barrel.

[Ronin]

OK, I give up. Suicide discussion it is.


True - at the moment - The family of a hard working dad who drops dead from a heart attack gets nothing. But a cop murdering drug dealers wife (who also sells drugs) - gets 000's.

Sorry. Perhaps if more of the people knew the mess that they would leave ther families in - they might not bite the barrel.

That's the sad part, they know, they just don't care. Suicide is the ultimate in selfish acts.

[Ronin]

Sucide is no accident but the survivors are sure victims.

I am undecided on this one, cant say fair or foul to be honest
I agree with supporting the victime, eg the survivors, but cant see a bulk payout from ACC being justified

Councelling services definitely, maybe a finance plan to assist with funeral (recoverable no interest like student loan) but not a payout as such

With ya on this one mate. Is there not a WINZ grant for funeral costs?

I think it should be viewed as a hand up, not a hand out.

[rachprice]

OK, I give up. Suicide discussion it is.



That's the sad part, they know, they just don't care. Suicide is the ultimate in selfish acts.

As much as I hate suicide, (I have had very personal experience with it), and I think it the ultimate selfish act, Don't for one minute think that the people that commit it know the mess that they are going to leave and don't care.

People in that state of mind are so caught up in their own heads, they cannot see past their thoughts and feelings of desperation and the like.
Everything that happens, peoples actions, are viewed as a negative result of themselves, even if its far from the truth.
They don't just not care, they genuinely believe that the world is better off without them, that the people they love would lead better lives if they weren't here.

[Ronin]

They don't just not care, they genuinely believe that the world is better off without them, that the people they love would lead better lives if they weren't here.

That's what I meant, you just said it in a much more articulate way.

[Skyryder]

Let me see if I understand this! You are saying that suicide is the cause of an accident. The definition of accident is, "an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss" How can suicide be unintentional?

ACC was set up as a no fault scheme and replaced a right to sue in the case of an accident. So prior to the ACC system who would sue when a suicide occured?

Sorry mate, I don't follow your logic - but I think I know your agenda.



Under English law suicide was a criminal act. This was changed sometime in the early sixties.

Where a criminal act took place and injury or death resulted then there was the option to sue.
As with any litigation there is rarely, unless based on case law, a guarantee of a successful outcome and suicide is no different. The complexity of each case could never guarantee a conviction but the right to sue was a fact of law.

This right as all know was removed for the general population and the no fault ACC was put in place.

Now it seems fair to me that if the right to sue has been taken away as it has with suicides then there should be some form of compensation to take it’s place.

Very few of us would contemplate the return of litigation to replace ACC but to those that believe that the dependants of a suicide should not only have the right to sue denied, but the compensation that we all now take for granted should also be denied all I can say is to think again.

Skyryder