Westfield Mall Protest

[dpex]

The specific Mall(s) will be notified on this site at 6am on Sunday 29th November, for those who are no a part of the telephone tree.

This particular protest has a visual theme as opposed to a clamour theme.

At each Mall it will be one bike, one car-park. The number of bikes arriving will determine the spread of the visual effect.

We are all used to arriving at a Mall car-park and seeing a sea of cars and SUVs. The car-parks are and 'look' full.

Now imagine the visual impact of every car-park in view being taken by one bike...one small bike compared to any cage. The area will look almost empty till the cagers try to find a park. This will cause the cagers to wonder.

Around them 'appears' to be space, but in fact no space exists.

There won't be a biker in sight. We'll all be in having coffee....as legitimate Mall visitors are allowed to do.

But Mr & Mrs Cager, and all their little cagers might just get a little frustrated. Many will complain to Westfield, 'Why aren't you doing something about this patent offence against our rights to find a park to then go forth and waste money in your Mall?'

Some will bitch to the Pollies. 'This has got to stop! These damned bikers caused my shopaholic wife to have a seizure when we couldn't get a park.'

Pressure. That's what we have to keep up and in fact ramp up.

And for all you limp-wrists who quail at upsetting a few thousand Mall-Gnomes, just remember how upset you're going to be when you hand over another $500 bucks for ACC next year.

And think how upset you're going to be when those of us who truly have decided we've had enough, shut down the motorways during rush-hour.

Look at it like this. We ain't going to pay any ACC levy increase. In fact we want all ACC levies on registered road-users abolished.

So there's the date. Nov 29th. The targets to be announced.

[scissorhands]

I dont like the mall idea. I hate malls with a vengence

[Paul in NZ]

Funny because a colleague at work who really couldn't give atoss either way asked me why people would do this to piss off ma and pa and risk their good will..

I mean I don't care but....

[R6_kid]

IMHO this will be epic fail - both in terms of execution and effect.

[short-circuit]

IMHO this will be epic fail - both in terms of execution and effect.

I agree. It's aiming way too low - we need a massive disruption to the public and business and participation needs to occur on a scale similar if not bigger than bikeoi part I

[R6_kid]

I agree. It's aiming way too low - we need a massive disruption to the public and business and participation needs to occur on a scale similar if not bigger than bikeoi part I

Apparently that worked a charm down at Whangamata - according to the locals.


If you couldn't tell, that was my attempt at sarcasm

What is the point in causing distress, disruption, and loss of business to the people that we need support from?

[short-circuit]

Apparently that worked a charm down at Whangamata - according to the locals.


If you couldn't tell, that was my attempt at sarcasm

What is the point in causing distress, disruption, and loss of business to the people that we need support from?

I know NZers have no nuts, no unions and don't know what a riot looks like - but the point of teacher and doctor strikes for example has nothing to do with punishing students or patients . It's about putting pressure on their employers (government) to make the pain go away.

The public and business will support the government to quell that level of discontent

[scissorhands]

Strength and a quick response

[Ronin]

Thanks guys, for showing how little you actually care about your fellow bikers. You have a right of course to protest however you wish, nothing wrong with that. In doing so though you are putting a far bigger target on bikers backs than ACC could ever do. You will, with a couple of acts take away any positive support that Ma and Pa public have towards us. The public that were quietly (and not so quietly) impressed at the sight of 6000 bikes, 10,000 well behaved bikers and a raft of shattered misconceptions will instead shake their heads and think we have reverted to type.

Instead of giving the process a chance, working with what is supposed to be your own community, you will do what you always do. Push your own agenda regardless of the consequences.

So go ahead. Suffer under delusion that your acts will cause the Government to cave in.

Just don't expect any back up from me or my mates.

[short-circuit]

Thanks guys, for showing how little you actually care about your fellow bikers. You have a right of course to protest however you wish, nothing wrong with that. In doing so though you are putting a far bigger target on bikers backs than ACC could ever do. You will, with a couple of acts take away any positive support that Ma and Pa public have towards us. The public that were quietly (and not so quietly) impressed at the sight of 6000 bikes, 10,000 well behaved bikers and a raft of shattered misconceptions will instead shake their heads and think we have reverted to type.

Instead of giving the process a chance, working with what is supposed to be your own community, you will do what you always do. Push your own agenda regardless of the consequences.

So go ahead. Suffer under delusion that your acts will cause the Government to cave in.

Just don't expect any back up from me or my mates.

You the type that only goes on strike in your lunch hour?

[Ronin]

You the type that only goes on strike in your lunch hour?

Wonderfully coherent response. Got anything better?

[huff3r]

You the type that only goes on strike in your lunch hour?

I think he's more the type who understands that if the public notices the changing of ACC principles they might join us, however if they notice us being dicks they wont give a shit.

[The Everlasting]

Yup,good idea imo!!

[short-circuit]

Wonderfully coherent response. Got anything better?

Pretty simple really isn't it.

How about this:

Are we going to spend the next six months "improving our public image" and convincing the public make out like they will all vote the government out on this single issue.

Or do you fancy having more nice wee parades - giving kiddies rides (ATGATTed up of course) and organising not too inconvienent park ups.

How about attending Peter's National Lover's anonymous meeting and having a nice friendly chat with minister Nick in an attempt to educate him as to the folly of his ways http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=112791

You wanna make an omelette you've gotta break some eggs

[The Stranger]

At each Mall it will be one bike, one car-park.

Now imagine the visual impact of every car-park in view being taken by one bike...one small bike compared to any cage. The area will look almost empty till the cagers try to find a park. This will cause the cagers to wonder.

Around them 'appears' to be space, but in fact no space exists.



Ah, if you park one bike per park, wont the cagers be able to park between the bikes?
Let me know when you do west and I'll come down in a car and start the ball rolling.

[short-circuit]

As I said in post 5 - this is aiming to low. It's just being a nuisance.

We need to cause so much inconvenience, expense and concern that the public are asking the government to quell our discontent

Government tampering with our civic entitlements will be seen as the root cause of an eventual backlash.

They have the power to make us stop whatever action we take from here on in

[Tink]

The specific Mall(s) will be notified on this site at 6am on Sunday 29th November, for those who are no a part of the telephone tree.

'This has got to stop! These damned bikers caused my shopaholic wife to have a seizure when we couldn't get a park.'

you hand over another $500 bucks for ACC next year.

.



Just don't expect any back up from me or my mates.

Ah shopaholic that is NOT FOR SURE ME.. .but tis xmas but once a year... and where do I spend the few earned pennies I have, BUT AT THE MALL, well if these levies come about thats $500 less from me to spend at THE MALL...

Just food for thought!

[Ronin]

Pretty simple really isn't it.

How about this:

Are we going to spend the next six months "improving our public image" and convincing the public make out like they will all vote the government out on this single issue.

Or do you fancy having more nice wee parades - giving kiddies rides (ATGATTed up of course) and organising not too inconvienent park ups.

How about attending Peter's National Lover's anonymous meeting and having a nice friendly chat with minister Nick in an attempt to educate him as to the folly of his ways http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=112791

You wanna make an omelette you've gotta break some eggs

Good try. I did ask for something better though. Not just the same old rhetoric.

You don't have to agree with the way the vast majority of bikers want to approach the issue. You could at least respect that they are trying. Understand that public relations is far more important than being able to high five your mates "didja see how pissed off they were?" Even the gangs understand that.

[Ronin]

Ah shopaholic that is NOT FOR SURE ME.. .but tis xmas but once a year... and where do I spend the few earned pennies I have, BUT AT THE MALL, well if these levies come about thats $500 less from me to spend at THE MALL...

Just food for thought!

Fair enough and your entitled to your view. However, it's not the mall raising your levies. It's not Ma and Pa raising your levies. The public onside is worth far more than offside.

[short-circuit]

Good try. I did ask for something better though. Not just the same old rhetoric.

You don't have to agree with the way the vast majority of bikers want to approach the issue. You could at least respect that they are trying. Understand that public relations is far more important than being able to high five your mates "didja see how pissed off they were?" Even the gangs understand that.

Calling all weak, subdued, apathetic drones....Ronin wants to whinge on a biker forum and maybe go on a nice group ride down to Wellington next year some time. He might even yell a catchphrase or two....

Now who's with him?

[R6_kid]

Short-circuit... how about you hit up all the biker gangs in NZ and get them to join in on your little parade. I'm sure it's exactly the image that rest of the NZ motorcycling public wants directed towards the rest of the population.

It's not that I don't have balls, or a union, and I know what a decent riot looks like. I have a head on my shoulders, and I use the thing which it contains - my brain - to think, and look at the wider consequences of my actions and their affect on others. Maybe it's the fact that I'm studying Psychology, or maybe I'm just brighter than you, but while I don't want to pay levies which are not justified, nor do I want ACC to change from being no fault, but I would like for the changes to be stopped with at least some level of support from the New Zealand public - not because they are sick and tired of us causing a disruption to their lives, but because they understand how the changes to ACC will be affecting them in the long run.

[Tink]

Fair enough and your entitled to your view. However, it's not the mall raising your levies. It's not Ma and Pa raising your levies. The public onside is worth far more than offside.

And have they done a survey to say how the mall owners may respond... just curious.. I think maybe dpex should send a sensible letter to the mall owners to get their feelings on it... to me its the parking space (if you spend money, your entitled to park there)... I never spend much when I go to a mall (only xmas) to be honest as I hate them, I go to wander around cause the kids like it... I take up a space for 2 hours or more seriously... when you offer parking no matter if the person owns the land or not... you have to have a damn good reason to expel them from your land, ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAVE A RECEIPT OF PURCHASE.

There is rarely a decent amount of parking for bikes, so maybe the malls should be aware of this... if the numbers are high at these protests, possibly 2 bikes per space to apease the ma & pa's and the shopaholics...

NB: I can rarely find a park at the best of times anyway thats not a fair distance to walk... so whats the difference.

:)

[scissorhands]

Thats right! Lets have another punch up! Wooohoo I'm getting my moneys worth here alright

[short-circuit]

Short-circuit... how about you hit up all the biker gangs in NZ and get them to join in on your little parade. I'm sure it's exactly the image that rest of the NZ motorcycling public wants directed towards the rest of the population.

It's not that I don't have balls, or a union, and I know what a decent riot looks like. I have a head on my shoulders, and I use the thing which it contains - my brain - to think, and look at the wider consequences of my actions and their affect on others. Maybe it's the fact that I'm studying Psychology, or maybe I'm just brighter than you, but while I don't want to pay levies which are not justified, nor do I want ACC to change from being no fault, but I would like for the changes to be stopped with at least some level of support from the New Zealand public - not because they are sick and tired of us causing a disruption to their lives, but because they understand how the changes to ACC will be affecting them in the long run.

Well doing nothing certainly won't be detrimental to "our" image...

it won't do fuck all for our cause either

[R6_kid]

Well doing nothing certainly won't be detrimental to "our" image...

it won't do fuck all for our cause either

Tell me where I said 'do nothing'?

[Ronin]

Calling all weak, subdued, apathetic drones....Ronin what's to whinge on a biker forum and maybe go on a nice group ride down to Wellington next year some time. He might even yell a catchphrase or two....

Now who's with him?

Whups, there we go. Reverting to type. Didn't take long did it?

Like I said. Your entitled to your opinion, free to do what ever you want. If you want to believe that me making my own informed opinion makes me weak and apathetic then go ahead. Doesn't make you right.

The bit I have trouble with, and feel free to help me out with this. Is why you feel that pissing people off is the only way to get a result. Were you ignored in the cot? Unpopular at school? The psychology fascinates me.

[Ronin]

And have they done a survey to say how the mall owners may respond... just curious.. I think maybe dpex should send a sensible letter to the mall owners to get their feelings on it... to me its the parking space (if you spend money, your entitled to park there)... I never spend much when I go to a mall (only xmas) to be honest as I hate them, I go to wander around cause the kids like it... I take up a space for 2 hours or more seriously... when you offer parking no matter if the person owns the land or not... you have to have a damn good reason to expel them from your land, ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAVE A RECEIPT OF PURCHASE.

There is rarely a decent amount of parking for bikes, so maybe the malls should be aware of this... if the numbers are high at these protests, possibly 2 bikes per space to apease the ma & pa's and the shopaholics...

NB: I can rarely find a park at the best of times anyway thats not a fair distance to walk... so whats the difference.

:)

Do we really have to use innocent people as pawns though. That's what I'm uncomfortable about. I don't care about the legal right or wrong of it.

[Ronin]

Well doing nothing certainly won't be detrimental to "our" image...

it won't do fuck all for our cause either

Define nothing. I'm pretty sure you may have it wrong.

[R6_kid]

Government tampering with our civic entitlements will be seen as the root cause of an eventual backlash.

If the changes do happen (they may not), then there will be some serious anger directed at the government... then non-peaceful protest will be justified, as long as it is pointed in the right direction.

[short-circuit]

Short-circuit... how about you hit up all the biker gangs in NZ and get them to join in on your little parade. I'm sure it's exactly the image that rest of the NZ motorcycling public wants directed towards the rest of the population.

It's not that I don't have balls, or a union, and I know what a decent riot looks like. I have a head on my shoulders, and I use the thing which it contains - my brain - to think, and look at the wider consequences of my actions and their affect on others. Maybe it's the fact that I'm studying Psychology, or maybe I'm just brighter than you, but while I don't want to pay levies which are not justified, nor do I want ACC to change from being no fault, but I would like for the changes to be stopped with at least some level of support from the New Zealand public - not because they are sick and tired of us causing a disruption to their lives, but because they understand how the changes to ACC will be affecting them in the long run.

How does "image" or "perception" actually generate the type of political pressure needed to effect a change in policy direction?

As I've said elsewhere: There is another current thread about Bikers and charities - we do heaps in this area but has it changed perceptions? There was StoneY's thread (attempting to remedy the fuck up made by a tit on a Harley at the Bikeoi), which many feared might undermine the exemplary behaviour by 7000 of the rest of us.

Public support would be a bonus but the main issue focus should be causing a headache for this government. Again the aim of industrial action by those in the health, education and primary social services is not to harm students, patients or citizens...although those are the groups affected until government makes the changes needed to make the pain go away

[Ronin]

How does "image" or "perception" actually generate the type of political pressure needed to effect a change in policy direction?



It works like this: The Government tends to (granted not always) pay attention to public feeling. Note I said pay attention not follow blindly.

Look at the media coverage for the "Democracy march". One person arrested, Mixed messages and protesting well over a year to late. Did I mention the negative connotations of it being noted that they were marching to be allowed to beat their kids. please note, this is an example only and not representative of my own views. I like to beat kids as much as the next parent

[laRIKin]

Funny because a colleague at work who really couldn't give atoss either way asked me why people would do this to piss off ma and pa and risk their good will.


What is the point in causing distress, disruption, and loss of business to the people that we need support from?


In doing so though you are putting a far bigger target on bikers backs than ACC could ever do. You will, with a couple of acts take away any positive support that Ma and Pa public have towards us. The public that were quietly (and not so quietly) impressed at the sight of 6000 bikes, 10,000 well behaved bikers and a raft of shattered misconceptions will instead shake their heads and think we have reverted to type.

Instead of giving the process a chance, working with what is supposed to be your own community, you will do what you always do. Push your own agenda regardless of the consequences.

So go ahead. Suffer under delusion that your acts will cause the Government to cave in.

Just don't expect any back up from me or my mates.


it's not the mall raising your levies. It's not Ma and Pa raising your levies. The public onside is worth far more than offside.

It has all been said before.:slap:

[short-circuit]

It works like this: The Government tends to (granted not always) pay attention to public feeling. Note I said pay attention not follow blindly.[/SIZE]

Um - did you know the stalk didn't really deliver you to your mummy and daddy?

[Ronin]

How does "image" or "perception" actually generate the type of political pressure needed to effect a change in policy direction?

As I've said elsewhere: There is another current thread about Bikers and charities - we do heaps in this area but has it changed perceptions? There was StoneY's thread (attempting to remedy the fuck up made by a tit on a Harley at the Bikeoi), which many feared might undermine the exemplary behaviour by 7000 of the rest of us.

Public support would be a bonus but the main issue focus should be causing a headache for this government. Again the aim of industrial action by those in the health, education and primary social services is not to harm students, patients or citizens...although those are the groups affected until government makes the changes needed to make the pain go away


It has all been said before.:slap:

Don't get me wrong. I'm not silly enough to think for a moment that I could change anybody's mind. And if I was that silly. It certainly wouldn't be shortcircuts.

[Ronin]

Um - did you know the stalk didn't really deliver you to your mummy and daddy?

Certainly do, I also know they loved me sooooooo.

Which is probably why I'm not a shouty stabby person.

[R6_kid]

How does "image" or "perception" actually generate the type of political pressure needed to effect a change in policy direction?
Is it not better that when we are seen in the media when trying to effect change, that we are in fact seen to be doing the 'right thing' or at least doing it the 'right way'.


As I've said elsewhere: There is another current thread about Bikers and charities - we do heaps in this area but has it changed perceptions? There was StoneY's thread (attempting to remedy the fuck up made by a tit on a Harley at the Bikeoi), which many feared might undermine the exemplary behaviour by 7000 of the rest of us.
This is an will always be the way, but how would the protest have been percieved if it was 7000 unlawful and inconsiderate bikers causing a ruckus, and one rider behaving themself?


Public support would be a bonus but the main issue focus should be causing a headache for this government. Again the aim of industrial action by those in the health, education and primary social services is not to harm students, patients or citizens...although those are the groups affected until government makes the changes needed to make the pain go away
The difference being that those services are crucial to the people. Bikers being charged higher levies is not. How does causing public disruption help get the message across that if they don't support us (in that we are actually fighting FOR them), ACC will end up moving away from NO FAULT, ACCIDENT PREVENTION AND COMPENSATION, and towards USER PAYS accident INSURANCE.

[Tink]

Do we really have to use innocent people as pawns though. That's what I'm uncomfortable about. I don't care about the legal right or wrong of it.

Do you really think there trade will be affected... I am not so sure... but who knows, depends on how long they are there for I guess :)

[laRIKin]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not silly enough to think for a moment that I could change anybody's mind. And if I was that silly. It certainly wouldn't be shortcircuts.

Well I hope for our sakes, that not many turn up.
As they can see the harm it could do.

My last comment on this folly.

[Ronin]

Do you really think there trade will be affected... I am not so sure... but who knows, depends on how long they are there for I guess :)

'Tis got little to do with their trade being affected. Has got everything to do with Ma n Pa explaining to the kids why they can't go to the Mall and have their sugar slurpies.

Perceptions vs actual harm.

[Ronin]

Well, as fun as this has been, I'm off to bed with a nice warm cup of HTFU. Maybe then I will be a big mean angry biker.

[jeffs]

You guys really don't get it.

If the Westfield carparks are private, they will have laws that will allow you to be removed. I hope you enjoy seeing your Bikes being towed off the carparks to cheering crowds of car owners out doing their Christmas shopping.

Like "The Stranger" let me know when you do out west so I can join in the cheering.

If you know bikers are against your protest, why do you thing joe public will be on your side ?

You planned protest against ACC well be viewed as a protest against cars and nothing else.

Some commuters use the free parking provided in the city carparks for bikers, start filling up the space to prove your point, and see how long it is before these go.

But just to be fair, and show you alternatives....to prove I am not just saying do nothing.


If you want to make an impact, park outside the ACC Auckland office at 18 Sale Street. ACC are the people you should be shitting on.

[Subike]

This is such a good thread,just like some of the others that SS is in and trying to get his point across, Keep it up SS we need the practice.
You are exibiting the ame one eyedness that Nick Smith is about ACC.
He does not want to see our side because of his arguments.
You donot want to see our side because of your arguments.
Nick Smith had a lot support from his group when he started,
You had a lot of support from a few in here when you first started.
Nick Smith has lost reputaion and support as his lies have come to light
You have lost support and support as the arguments against you have increased.
Im not saying you are Nick Smith, your not that stupid.
I am saying that the road you are traveling in principle is the same.
Dont stop SS , we need the practice to keen the edges of our arguments,
we need to learn how to address NicK Smith who will not change his arguments.
You will not change your argument,
Thanks for helping us all become better at arguing with the facts
Indeed!
I look forward to tonights round of entrertainment from your side and our side of this debate this thread and other threads on the forum.
Oh, I am against blocking car parks at this stage of the war.

[Gubb]

This is such a good thread,just like some of the others that SS is in and trying to get his point across, Keep it up SS we need the practice.

Why the fuck are you bringing up the Secret Service?

[Elysium]

Bet big and win big, bet big and loose big.

[Indiana_Jones]

Why the fuck are you bringing up the Secret Service?


http://hollywoodprop.com/Allgemeine-SSa.jpg

Schutzstaffel!

-Indy

[Swoop]

So much for getting the public on side.

Much better to park a bike each side of the pedestrian entrances into the building and hand out leaflets clearly explaining the situation. Chat nicely to people and get them educated about our plight.

[Max Headroom]

I can just imagine some stressed-out soccer mum in a bullbar-equipped SUV with a carload of screaming kids arriving at a Westfield carpark somewhere near you, and seeing red at the sight of several hundred bikes occupying a carpark each. Something is likely to snap. :angry2:

She might just decide, in those brief moments of realisation that she won't get a carpark anytime soon, that playing motorcycle dominoes might actually be fun . . . . :devil2:

Regardless of the intent of the Westfield protest, what the public will focus on is their perception of the event and I believe that bikers will come out of this looking not-too-flash. Westfield will play the martyrs, the public will play the victims, and nobody will remember or even care that ACC was the intended target . . .

Remember people, short term goals corrupt long term goals.

[Big Dave]

I'm also of the opinion that the overall effect of such a rebel battle will have an adverse effect on the war.

If you guys targeted your energy on ACC offices and MP's with legal protest it would yield a better result.

[Waxxa]

keep the protest actions on the politicians and ACC. General Joe public wont see this action of parking in car parks at malls and relate it to the bike levies.

As a biker I can understand the congestion theory but our protest efforts should remain on those who are responsible and capable of making the changes and pushing these changes through. And that is not general Joe Public.

[george formby]

Great, I'm going to be marginalised even further now. My own fault for being a dumb, selfish, arrogant biker then. Cheers!

[k2w3]

Speaking of the SS, who was that dude at the Auckland Museum ride wearing the shiny silver German helmet with the gold swastika on the side. Offensive, much?

[R6_kid]

Much better to park a bike each side of the pedestrian entrances into the building and hand out leaflets clearly explaining the situation. Chat nicely to people and get them educated about our plight.


If you guys targeted your energy on ACC offices and MP's with legal protest it would yield a better result.

Two very good ideas. Funny that they take a bit of time and effort to do, and aren't as 'cool' as attempting to fill up a mall carpark and them aimlessly wandering around the mall.

[k2w3]

I'd also like to know what's with the "do not add to watchlist". First time I've seen that instruction, R6kid.

[Ronin]

Bet big and win big, bet big and loose big.

Loose lips sink ships?

[Tank]

I believe that the only media coming to this protest is going to be failblog.

[raster]

I spoke to one of the mall managers and they said, once any bike parking (if provided) are full then park in a carpark.

She would be just as happy to have us spend our money as the mission bay shop owners were last Sunday.

Be aware that there is a time limit on the carparks and when the carparks are filled up then they will be inforced.

Follow the same principle as the Mission Bay parkup and I don't think we will be getting any flack from the retailers.

Another way of looking at it is if someone is driving around looking for a park....
"Do you want to park?... here let me move my bike so you can!... and have a flyer while you are at it."!!!!!!!!!

[raster]

I need to do some shopping for Christmas, why shouldn't I do it when other people are.

My initial response is NONONO, (sorry NONONO, not taking your name in vein)

Then I thought about it, if we are there to shop then why not, if we parked and stayed with our bikes it would be a different story.

Although someone with a quick camera would need to keep an eye on the bikes.

[PrincessBandit]

I need to do some shopping for Christmas, why shouldn't I do it when other people are.

My initial response is NONONO, (sorry NONONO, not taking your name in vein)

Then I thought about it, if we are there to shop then why not, if we parked and stayed with our bikes it would be a different story.

Although someone with a quick camera would need to keep an eye on the bikes.

I'll be taking my bike to do my Christmas shopping! Yay, protest of one!
Ooops, I think I just gave away a clue that I won't be buying big pressies for anyone...

[k2w3]

I threatened my Mrs with the same thing - shopping on my bike. She said that diamond rings take up very little space.

[Katman]

I believe that the only media coming to this protest is going to be failblog.

But, but, but............

It has the dpex Stamp of Approval on it.

How can it possibly fail?

:wacko:

[The Pastor]

Ah, if you park one bike per park, wont the cagers be able to park between the bikes?
Let me know when you do west and I'll come down in a car and start the ball rolling.
well you can park longways

[The Pastor]

tbh this is no differnt to mission bay, just higher profile.

[k2w3]

Only difference is it's fronted by seemingly angrier men.

[R6_kid]

Then I thought about it, if we are there to shop then why not, if we parked and stayed with our bikes it would be a different story

LOL! I thought we we're meant to be protesting against the Government, not going on a big girly shopping ride to the mall.

The idea of informing people of how the changes WILL affect them is more valuable than causing what I think will be minimal disruption to otherwise non-caring people. Hopefully those going to the protest will take that idea onboard and be prepared to explain the situation to joe public rather than simply showing up and going 'oh look what I did, you can't park here now.' It shouldn't be about us getting shafted by huge levie increases, it's about Government making fundamental changes to ACC which will allow them to charge who they want, what they want - and we are just among the first to get hit.

[Mully]

Funnily enough, if anyone protesting doesn't go into the mall and become a shopper, the mall is going to be much more easily able to throw them out. (i.e the signs say something along the lines of "this carpark is for the use of shoppers only")

[Mully]

The specific Mall(s) will be notified on this site at 6am on Sunday 29th November, for those who are no a part of the telephone tree.

There's a 6am on Sundays now??

[Tank]

There's a 6am on Sundays now??

if you are doing it right - technically its part of Saturday night!

[Oakie]

I've been thinking about this one for a couple of days now and have come to the conclusion that it'll end in tears. There are just too many ways this could be turned around to make us look stupid.
Go to the malls for sure and be visible and push the "Who is next" angle by posters under windsreen wipers or handouts ... whatever. The amount of public support we have at the moment is too precious to be jeopardised by inconveniencing Joe Public.

[Mully]

Go to the malls for sure and be visible and push the "Who is next" angle by posters under windsreen wipers or handouts ... whatever. The amount of public support we have at the moment is too precious to be jeopardised by inconveniencing Joe Public.

People could, of course, just stand on any Main Street handing out "Who's Next" leaflets. Or a convenient intersection and hand them out at red lights.

Those are public property and covered by Council bylaw, so lots could be handed out before they're moved along.

Just sayin'

[PhantasmNZ]

Said it before and I'll say it again... I think the Mall idea - even though I'm certain the organisers have good intentions - will backfire.

If there's disruption, then the protest will get bad press, and the protesters will probably get asked to leave, and if they don't go, will just get trespassed and then forced to leave (by the police who will undoubtably already be there). If this happens - we will lose some of the goodwill the police have continually been showing us throughout this.

If the protest is NOT disruptive - what's the point? I really don't see a bunch of bikers shopping in the mall (however they're parked) being the ultimate protest.

Sure this protest is similar to Mission Bay - but there's a few key differences - Mission bay was public (council) property - nobody could get trespassed or told to leave, it was out in the open and along public roads, it was made clear that supporters should BUY breakfast to keep local cafes on side - which could be done whilst staying part of the visible protest. Importantly the protest affected no essential activity (shops, services etc). Maybe more importantly - it was actually possible to PROTEST as well as park up, and have breakfast - where is the actual protesting part going to happen in the mall?

Course - we're all free to choose how we want to protest - but you'll forgive me if I don't participate in this one...

[Oakie]

Sure this protest is similar to Mission Bay - but there's a few key differences - .

Another important difference is the type of people you'll be upsetting. Mission Bay = chilled out people after their morning decafe soy latte. Malls are going to be a variety of stressed out shoppers just wanting to get in and out as fast as they can.

[PhantasmNZ]

Another important difference is the type of people you'll be upsetting. Mission Bay = chilled out people after their morning decafe soy latte. Malls are going to be a variety of stressed out shoppers just wanting to get in and out as fast as they can.

agreed.

I'd like to see some well reasoned arguments for this protest and why it will be successful without getting thrown off the property - I'm always happy to be proven wrong.

[flyingcrocodile46]

I went to Wellington and Mission Bay and am keen to see our protest actions have a positive impact both in getting the message across to Govt and the public. We had a big turn out by our standards but the Govt weren't swayed by our numbers. They don't care about us, they see us as a minor inconvenience.

No doubt they figure we will take the predictable path of attempting to gain leverage over them by disrupting the system and causing a public nuisance at key places and times.. not unlike the old days of Cook Straight ferry union stoppages during the holidays (remember them?). People get pissed off alright, but not at the govt. Piss enough of them off and they will cheer as the govt tosses bikers into jail and confiscate their bikes. Problem solved for the govt.... Easy as.:lol:

Seems to me that the best way to get our message across to govt is by swelling our ranks from mere hundreds or thousands of bikers, to tens of thousands or better yet, hundreds of thousands of NZers. After all, the ACC scam affects all NZer's not just bikers.

Something I noticed about how the Mission Bay demonstration worked that we can learn from...... We printed hundreds of information handouts for the public so that they could be informed, woken from their apathy and add their voice to ours, but there were bugger all of them there cause they had nowhere to park and went elsewhere. :doh:

I have come to believe we would be better off splitting into smaller groups and covering as many shopping centres as possible. The public are generally supportive and will readily lend an ear and take an info handout sheet if approached politely and pleasantly. Win them over to our cause by making it theirs as well... Don't piss them off by taking up all their parking.

If I was managing Westfield, I'd be hiring three or four security guards for each parking area entrance in MY car parks and either direct the bike parking where it suited me, or simply refuse access to MY property. What are the bikers going to do then? Ramp up action by blocking public roads or perhaps assaulting the security guards. Oh yeah! That'll win the hearts and souls of the public :rolleyes: Plays right into the govt's hands.

Deliver the message to an audience that will listen. Don't shout at them, get them singing along with us and drown the govt with a chorus of ..... Bullshit, Bullshit, Bullsh..... Flood newspapers with letters to the editor... Radio station call in lines. Make it the hot community topic that it should be. Start the ball rolling and others will follow.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/picture.php?albumid=2146&pictureid=35220

[Gubb]

If I was still in Auckland, i'd be protesting the protest.

A placard with "Not all Bikers support these wankers" or somesuch.

[Oakie]

Hit the malls and put our flyers under winsdcreen wipers. Information out without pissing any off. Could still do it as a group of bikers if you still want to make a visual statment.

[jeffs]

Hit the malls and put our flyers under winsdcreen wipers. Information out without pissing any off. Could still do it as a group of bikers if you still want to make a visual statment.

You are right Oakie there are other ways.

If this goes ahead, it seems the people doing this are not interested in making a statement about ACC levies. They just seem to want to piss people off to show they can.

As I have said before, if bikers are against this, why do you think non-bikers will support you ?

How many bikers have to tell you this is a bad idea before you listen ? Or is that the point ? you just don't care who you piss off, as long as you piss someone off.

[Tank]

Hit the malls and put our flyers under winsdcreen wipers. Information out without pissing any off. Could still do it as a group of bikers if you still want to make a visual statment.

Westfield actually charge you to place items on windscreens in their carparks, and you have to give a commitment to collect any rubbish that results from it (or pay a fee for cleaners).

From a mate that wanted to do it at Westfield Albany about a month ago.

[CookMySock]

Whether you agree with direct-action by protestors or not, you should take care not to undermine it as it makes us look divided and weak, and presents opportunities for the enemy to drive the wedge.

Steve

[Mully]

Westfield actually charge you to place items on windscreens in their carparks, and you have to give a commitment to collect any rubbish that results from it (or pay a fee for cleaners).

From a mate that wanted to do it at Westfield Albany about a month ago.

I would be stunned if Westfield would give permission for these flyers to be placed anyway - regardless of rubbish collection.

It could be done quickly (i.e. one or two people per level) before Mr Plastic Badge cottons on and throws people out.

Not that I would condone such a thing.

EDIT: Or, they could stand at the exits of the carpark, handing them out to people leaving. As long as they're on the footpath, the mall can't do anything about it (see my comment about Council bylaws above).

[jeffs]

Whether you agree with direct-action by protestors or not, you should take care not to undermine it as it makes us look divided and weak, and presents opportunities for the enemy to drive the wedge.

Steve

I believe in direct action, but I do not believe pissing off Christmas shoppers is the direct action bikers should take !. If the action is not unanimous than yes it will split us, as it is not unanimous Don't do it.

How many people have to tell you this ?

[Pinstripe]

yeah nah, not cool.

legitimate technique i suppose, but youre just pissing off the wrong people.

I wouldnt leave yer bikes unguarded either...

[klingon]

Hit the malls and put our flyers under winsdcreen wipers. Information out without pissing any off. Could still do it as a group of bikers if you still want to make a visual statment.


Westfield actually charge you to place items on windscreens in their carparks, and you have to give a commitment to collect any rubbish that results from it (or pay a fee for cleaners).

From a mate that wanted to do it at Westfield Albany about a month ago.

If you do put flyers on windscreens, the helpful staff at Westfield will
a) kick you out of their carpark and
b) remove every flyer you have distributed.

DAMHIK :whistle:

[CookMySock]

I believe in direct action, but I do not believe pissing off Christmas shoppers is the direct action bikers should take !. If the action is not unanimous than yes it will split us, as it is not unanimous Don't do it. How many people have to tell you this ?This is an independant liberal free society, and you have no say in what other groups do, or do not do, regardless of what you believe.

Perhaps I might turn up on your doorstep and state what I believe and suggest that you must comply with it? No? I did not think so.

NO action taken on KB so far has been unanimous - there will always be those who disagree, and that will never change, but they should not actively take steps to destroy the freedoms, efforts, and intentions of others, on the basis that they disagree, just as I may not with you.

Steve

[jeffs]

As you said DangerousBastard its a free world, but in your free world, other bikers opinions counts for shit.

No one can stop you going to Westfield, but enough people have asked you not too that perhaps you should listen. I am just one voice, who you seem to have taken a personal dislike too, read the other replies on this thread saying the same thing.

Do you do this to everyone who disagrees with you ?

Now start to get real. If you want numbers so you can make a statement and you want to do something more placid than parking in a car park.

Go to 18 Sale St and voice you opinion to ACC direct. If you do something like that I will join you, and so will all the other people you think are trying to de-rail your protest. There you can be just as disruptive as you want, and you won't have non-bikers running your bikes over.

BTW the first protest I was on over ACC, had just 15 bikers, and that one cause the police to sent 2 police cars to check us out.

[jeffs]

Sorry Dangerousbastard just re-read the thread. you are not advocating to do this, just stop telling people that they should not :)

Ok I have had my say, I will now move on.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Whether you agree with direct-action by protestors or not, you should take care not to undermine it as it makes us look divided and weak, and presents opportunities for the enemy to drive the wedge.

Steve

Speaking of driving wedges.

Wedge 1. Inconveniencing and pissing off the public by obstructively hogging car parks that they want and need in order to go about their business. Alienate 90 % of the public instead of gaining their support. That is just plain Stoopid. Massive wedge

Wedge 2.
Proceeding with a course of action when the great majority of your peers are against it. Alienate your peers to get a message across, that you claim represents their opinions??? That's as dumb as the justifications for the ACC levy increase.

Who's undermining who around here? Ignoring the majority of your peers is exactly the problem that we are protesting isn't it?

Modify your approach to one of getting the message out to win support by increasing the number of targets/exposure without inconveniencing anyone rather than one of simply pissing people off in the hope that their displeasure with you, will somehow result in you getting your own way. Be smart, swim with the current.

All it takes for us to succeed is to properly and coherently get the (ACC Rort) message out there. Communication is our best and most effective tool. Protest action that relies on obstructing peoples lives is piss poor communication and the tool of neanderthal fuckwits like bikie gangs.


Reading through this thread I can't see any proposed message from any of the few supporters or the proponent (cept some day dreaming that starts with "imagine"). Who's bringing the banners? Who's bringing flyers to hand out? Who's handing them out? What is the message that is to be delivered???.. Come on guys, get serious. Just what exactly is the point of swamping a carpark? We may as well all go buy Harleys and play show boat http://www.megavideo.com/?v=T0HT9YDY so everyone starts referring to us as 'Fags'.

Wait for the link to load and watch what will happen as a result of your proposed selfish protest

[jeffs]

I'd watch it flyingcrocodile46 he'll stop liking you as well

[Usarka]

I'm going to set fire to cars! Fuck em and the holdens they drove in on! I hope none of you cunts show division by distancing yourselves from it :spanking:

[CookMySock]

Sorry Dangerousbastard just re-read the thread. you are not advocating to do this, just stop telling people that they should not :) Ok I have had my say, I will now move on.Thats all cool, bro.

I'm not defending anyone or advocating anything, except the right for all of us to do as we choose, and observing that when its YOUR turn to choose, I have a responsibility not to damage it or undermine it. Consequently, the reverse would apply.

Steve

[Oakie]

Can we agree that while it is not cool to damage or undermine another member's plan, that it is OK to council that member against it in a constructive manner?

Now can we all go and have a group hug followed by a rousing chorus of 'Kumbaya'.

[MadDuck]

you should take care not to undermine it as it makes us look divided and weak, and presents opportunities for the enemy to drive the wedge.

The enemy is not the owners and businesses (already struggling with the recession) of the Malls. It is the ACC Corporation and the government.

These people are relying on the Christmas shopping period to get them through what has been a very difficult year. I personally would NOT support this kind of action.

If that means making us look weak an undivided then I have no problem with it. Having thrown this idea around a few customers they have all said it would corrode all the good "you guys have done".


Can we agree that while it is not cool to damage or undermine another member's plan, that it is OK to council that member against it in a constructive manner?

The Red Mist seems to have fallen and some are beyond reasonable discussion

[jeffs]

Can we agree that while it is not cool to damage or undermine another member's plan, that it is OK to council that member against it in a constructive manner?

Now can we all go and have a group hug followed by a rousing chorus of 'Kumbaya'.

I don't mind hugging, but "kumbaya" is taking it a little too far for me, so I will pass on that one, but thanks for the offer :)

I took a step back and looked at the point DangerousBastard was making, "agree to disagree but don't just piss on someones party just because you have a keyboard." Not your exact words DB but the general gist.

Therefor like many others I will pass on this weekends festivities, but if someone organises another proper demo that does not involve hurting the innocent, and is aimed directly at ACC for a change, count me in.

[ac3_snow]

I believe that as has been well demonstrated in the last 300 or so messages that there are many a different views on wether protest a. is better then protest b. look at how much energy (and a bit of hostility) has gone into who has the best idea.
:Playnice:

a wiser person has said 'any publicity is good publicity'

surely most people will see we simply want attention and respect for these injustices and any one who gets unduly upset by us simply parking our bikes as we have every right to do is surely to foolish to worry about any way. If someone has a better idea then sweet as plan it for the weekend after, we should be able to have a gig every weekend for the next 6 months surely that will get some attention!!

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Sorry we won't be there Westfeild carparks are private property and out beef is with the acc and goverment not westfields.

[Tank]

This is so going to be a Protest FAIL.

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs208.snc1/7531_611014949055_7409474_35694152_3075023_n.jpg

[Max Headroom]

a wiser person has said 'any publicity is good publicity'


That quote was attributed to Oscar Wilde, someone who history records as a witty, colourful person rather than one considered wise. His life was something of a trainwreck . . . .

[k2w3]

I have nothing to declare but my genius.

[ac3_snow]

That quote was attributed to Oscar Wilde, someone who history records as a witty, colourful person rather than one considered wise. His life was something of a trainwreck . . . .

haha well very interesting to know cheer for the insight!! I guess I can consider myself corrected .

[Oakie]

He was a gay homosexual wasn't he?

[short-circuit]

He was a gay homosexual wasn't he?

As opposed to a glum homosexual?

[Hispid]

Sorry we won't be there Westfeild carparks are private property and out beef is with the acc and goverment not westfields.

Totally agree. I'm not up for this either.

[Max Headroom]

I have nothing to declare but my genius.

Yep. He was also famous for "work is the curse of the drinking class" . . .

[Oakie]

As opposed to a glum homosexual? Or as opposed to a straight homosexual perhaps.

[frankhea]

these new levys are rediculous

[short-circuit]

Or as opposed to a straight homosexual perhaps.

Is a gay homosexual then just a straight person? It's a double negative (turn of phrase not passing judgement)

[jafar]

Sorry we won't be there Westfeild carparks are private property and out beef is with the acc and goverment not westfields.

I agree , I'm not interested in causing any disruption to Westfield either, we need to do this right or don't do it at all.:2guns:

[gunnyrob]

Not into the Mall protest either. There is the BRONZ Toy Run next week if you want to get involved with a high profile event. They are keen on people wearing T shirts to it. www.bronz.org.nz

[Swoop]

Not into the Mall protest either. There is the BRONZ Toy Run next week if you want to get involved with a high profile event. They are keen on people wearing T shirts to it. www.bronz.org.nz
A damn sight better PR approach.

[dpex]

Wonderfully coherent response. Got anything better?

Yeah, well he has a point, Ronin. You may have noticed that sundry teacher/doctor/nurse/radiologist/bus-driver strikes caused the public far more grief than a diminished car-parking facility will ever do.

But it is NOT the eye or ear of the public which really matters. It is those organs belonging to various Nats which we seek to keep alert to the fact that the Bikoi was not the last they will see of us.

Meanwhile, I would greatly appreciate learning your personal plans and efforst to push the cause.

[dpex]

He was a gay homosexual wasn't he?

For the record, Oscar Wilde was British Heavy-weight boxing champ for quite a long time, and fathered 103 children during his lifetime. But he pissed off some very powerful people and got set up as a homosexual and slung in Reading Gaol for two years.

He wrote a mind-blowingly descriptive poem about his experiences. It's named, The Ballard Of Reading Gaol.

He had an immense intelligence and was about as gay as Phar Lap.

[dpex]

Speaking of driving wedges.

Wedge 1. Inconveniencing and pissing off the public by obstructively hogging car parks that they want and need in order to go about their business. Alienate 90 % of the public instead of gaining their support. That is just plain Stoopid. Massive wedge

Wedge 2.
Proceeding with a course of action when the great majority of your peers are against it. Alienate your peers to get a message across, that you claim represents their opinions??? That's as dumb as the justifications for the ACC levy increase.

Who's undermining who around here? Ignoring the majority of your peers is exactly the problem that we are protesting isn't it?

Modify your approach to one of getting the message out to win support by increasing the number of targets/exposure without inconveniencing anyone rather than one of simply pissing people off in the hope that their displeasure with you, will somehow result in you getting your own way. Be smart, swim with the current.

All it takes for us to succeed is to properly and coherently get the (ACC Rort) message out there. Communication is our best and most effective tool. Protest action that relies on obstructing peoples lives is piss poor communication and the tool of neanderthal fuckwits like bikie gangs.


Reading through this thread I can't see any proposed message from any of the few supporters or the proponent (cept some day dreaming that starts with "imagine"). Who's bringing the banners? Who's bringing flyers to hand out? Who's handing them out? What is the message that is to be delivered???.. Come on guys, get serious. Just what exactly is the point of swamping a carpark? We may as well all go buy Harleys and play show boat http://www.megavideo.com/?v=T0HT9YDY so everyone starts referring to us as 'Fags'.

Wait for the link to load and watch what will happen as a result of your proposed selfish protest

I'm sorry. I must have missed something. Is there any mention here (on any thread) that you, or in fact any on this site have been invited to attend the various protests at the malls?

Gee. Maybe I missed something.

[Ronin]

Yeah, well he has a point, Ronin. You may have noticed that sundry teacher/doctor/nurse/radiologist/bus-driver strikes caused the public far more grief than a diminished car-parking facility will ever do.

The difference is that in the public eye the perception was that your average sundry teacher/doctor/nurse/radiologist deserved what they were asking for and the public were generally supportive. My take on public support for the bus drivers was that it was very poor. While there was sympathy for their plight, it didn't extend to supporting their industrial action.


But it is NOT the eye or ear of the public which really matters. It is those organs belonging to various Nats which we seek to keep alert to the fact that the Bikoi was not the last they will see of us.

I agree that we need to keep the pressure on the Nats etc. As stated before. I do not and will not agree that the Mall plan is the way to do that. The view of the public may not be important to our very specific campaign over levies. However, I do feel that the issue is bigger than just the bikers arguments of it hitting our back pocket.


Meanwhile, I would greatly appreciate learning your personal plans and efforst to push the cause.

And I thank you for your interest. I plan on voicing my opinion, discussing the issues and joining in protests that I am comfortable with and that I feel will further not just our cause, but that of the public in general.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Gee. Maybe I missed something.


Yeah! consideration of your fellow bikers wishes is but one of many 'things you missed'.

Fuck knows why you posted your poorly conceived ideas here at all. It's pretty clear that you couldn't give a fuck about anybodies opinions except your own.

In my book, that makes you a self absorbed arsehole that is a danger to all around you.

Hopefully poor attendance of your demonstration will be as big an embarrassment to you, as you are to your peers.

[Voltaire]

I'm sorry. I must have missed something. Is there any mention here (on any thread) that you, or in fact any on this site have been invited to attend the various protests at the malls?

Gee. Maybe I missed something.

Is The dpex protest invite only?
or is it going to be just you and the lady from Sideswipe?

:corn::corn:

[PrincessBandit]

For a mass "park in" protest to work (by filling almost every possible space so that car drivers miss out) you would need far more bikes that could probably be mustered. Drivers will simply go to another mall, or drive to another section of parking space (and mall car parks, especially the Westfield ones are pretty expansive).
Just as a suggestion, what if bikes were to fill a large portion of parking space with banners stating something like "all these places will be taken by cars if ACC levy increases go ahead. We will be here for 30 minutes [or somesuch shortish time period], sorry for the inconvenience". It might sound a bit wishy washy but then at least people will know why the bikes are there and what they're demonstrating, and know that it is for a finite time period not 4 hours (or whatever the max. parking period is allowed).
Something such as that, stating how long the parks will be taken for shows at least some compromise or degree of wanting to be understood.

[Swoop]

For a mass "park in" protest to work (by filling almost every possible space so that car drivers miss out) you would need far more bikes that could probably be mustered. Drivers will simply go to another mall, or drive to another section of parking space (and mall car parks, especially the Westfield ones are pretty expansive).
From what I have seen at D'Auckland malls, the drivers will crash into the bikes while trying to park between them. End result will be a bike laying under an SUV while some dopey bint will be wondering why she spilt her coffee when "parking"...:Oops:

[PrincessBandit]

From what I have seen at D'Auckland malls, the drivers will crash into the bikes while trying to park between them. End result will be a bike laying under an SUV while some dopey bint will be wondering why she spilt her coffee when "parking"...:Oops:

Hahaha, yeah, seen some pretty brainless parking techniques around here! Might just have to park the bikes in a pretty herring bone pattern across the mouth of the parking spaces - that way we can still move out easily enough but there's no space to squeeze in between...
No playing sardines with cars! :whistle:

[idleidolidyll]

dumbest move i think so far was alerting the media to a protest that never happened.

how to ensure the media will ignore us?: cry wolf and waste their expensive time

[Mully]

dumbest move i think so far was alerting the media to a protest that never happened.

how to ensure the media will ignore us?: cry wolf and waste their expensive time

I wondered about that too - even the "well, it'll happen, but we ain't saying where" might have had the same effect. The media, IMHO, wont wan't to be geared up to send people to Albany, Manukau, Westcity, etc on the off chance that that's the target mall.

Meh, I don't really care. I thought it was a terrible idea.

[Gubb]

Tank was right. Protest Fail.

[vifferman]

You will, with a couple of acts take away any positive support that Ma and Pa public have towards us. The public that were quietly (and not so quietly) impressed at the sight of 6000 bikes, 10,000 well behaved bikers and a raft of shattered misconceptions will instead shake their heads and think we have reverted to type.
I agree.
From my small sampling of comments from people I know (along the lines of "Why are bikers doing that? It will just piss of people who have nothing to do with the ACC levies!"), it's not going to help. Like you said, people were very impressed by the rallies (once again, people who know I ride told me how impressed they were). They'll be less impressed and supportive if they feel they're bearing the brunt of bikers' ire for no apparent reason.