Mokihinui .Woz up there? and do we need so much of this electrickery

[Ixion]

I been there . Good place. Ought to be left alone. Like it was intended to be.

For some reason the NZ National geographic sent me a free magazine . Dunno why, I certainly ain't paying for it. But in it there was a bit about the Manapouri protests. I remember them.

And it said they want to build another bloody dam, on the Mokihinui.

Now, I sure as hell ain't no greenie. But I reckon they ought to step back and take a long hard look at that .

Anyone know if its going ahead?

And why do we need more of the damn stuff? We should have surplus, ought to be using less every year. Almost everything nowadays uses less electrickery than it used it. I remember valve radios, used amps and amps, practically needed their own hydro station. Now, ICs use milliamps. Electric range, used shit loads. Now, microwaves use bugger all. We ought to have a surplus.

So how come they reckon we need more? When I was a lad, lots of people didn't have it at all, they managed fine. Now we get told we need more and more every year. Maybe it's time we said, no, y' gotta use less not more.

Not hard , really. Junk the central heating and airconditioning for a start. Cold? Put more clothes on. Hot? Take 'em off. (chicks, take 'em off anyway :devil2: ) We have a temperate climate never gets very hot or cold.

When you use lectrickery up, it doesn't just disappear y'know . Goes somewhere, everything goes somewhere. Mainly, into heat. Amount we're using nowadays, it's a wonder we aren't boiled alive.

Maybe if they tried turning out all the bloody office lights at night, eh?

Anyway , anyone know if they're gonna build that dam or not?

[sAsLEX]

Used to have one radio per house.

Now there is a tv in each room.

That could be one reason.

[Ixion]

Well, chez Ixion only got one per house. And modern TVs should use bugger all electrickery. The Ixionic TV is 30 years old , and puts out a lotta heat. Modern ones I've seen , y' cna hold your hand on them when they're going! And they're not even warm. So that don't account for it.

[Pussy]

...don't forget the four cellphone chargers per household, too!.....

[sAsLEX]

Well, chez Ixion only got one per house. And modern TVs should use bugger all electrickery. The Ixionic TV is 30 years old , and puts out a lotta heat. Modern ones I've seen , y' cna hold your hand on them when they're going! And they're not even warm. So that don't account for it.

Have you put your hand over one of those massive plasma screens?

What are you writing this on?

[mashman]

so technology then... I don't know many large businesses that turn their servers off these days. They need the uptime for backups and the likes. Could account for a fair chunk. Add that to many company's servers sit in an air conditioned room and it's always hummin, office lights on irrespective of the fact that it's day time, street lamps, lighting highways, lights in parks, those god awful neon signs on the top of buildings, tunnel lights, bus station lights, stupid outside garage lights on sensors and my wifes hair dryer etc...

[CookMySock]

Yeah, and our four fridges, two TVs, seven computers, three laptops.. I'm surprised the power lines to our house aren't on fire.

One day, I want to unplug everything, and not plug it back in. That would be cool I reckon. The power company will think the meter is broken.

Steve

[Ixion]

Have you put your hand over one of those massive plasma screens?

What are you writing this on?

Don't have massive plasma anythings.

BUT -- Mrs Ixion is anal retentive about household bills. So, digging throught her old records, I found the electrickery bills for 27 years ago - when she wrestled control of them from me.

And - obviously the dollars has gone up. But the number of kilowatty houry thingies has gone DOWN - by nearly 20%. As expected.

So it's not us NORMAL people what are doing it. We're using LESS electrickery, not more.

So why do we need new dams, buggering the country about? (not to mention people trying to put in stupid sind generator things, and horrible greta pylons everywhere. If we must have more electriclery , why nnot have it generated near where it's needed. Solar power FTW.)

[Motu]

And we need more life out of these doohickies too,not throw them away after 12 months.

28 years ago as a struggling single income family,we were sick of the throw away vacuum cleaners,and spent some serious dosh on a Tellus.Last week the on/off switch crapped out....I fixed it (no,my wife did,she was trained in such mechanical switches) by pulling it apart and cleaning the contacts,but couldn't rerivet it back together.Got a new switch today and it's running again.28 years and all it's needed is a switch and a hose because a series of 4 toddlers kept standing on it.

What happened to quality!!?? These days we are such a moaning and complaining lot of bastards,but we are happy for manufacturers to off load high tech crap on us that we toss away without a thought when it doesn't go any more.

[Ixion]

Electrical appliances, used to be , you bought one of each when you married (or got given them as wedding prezzies) ; then bought a replacement for each just before you retired, to see you out.

That seems a pretty good arrangement to me, what I work on.

[James Deuce]

Our household current draw has decreased markedly in the last couple of years.

Our biggest electrickery issues are the hugely inefficient single Cook Strait cable and the attendant transmission losses, plus things like Manapouri not being generally used for National Grid power supply.

Though talking to someone at a 21st last weekend, the National Gubbermint might well be looking at doing something about the Grid and the South to North transmission medium. They've put a stack of money aside for it already.

[Jantar]

....
Anyone know if its going ahead?
....

Current status
The hearing has been adjourned. http://www.wcrc.govt.nz/mokihinui/

Either a new power station is needed in the upper South Island / West Coast area, or new and massive power lines need to be built into the region. Every year now the situation is getting worse in this area, and there are two main reasons: Irrigation and the Clean Air Act.

As more and more farms are being converted from dry crop to dairy there is a growing need for irrigation. Many of these irrigation systems require huge pumps with an equally huge demand for power. There has been around a 400% increase in irrigation power demand in the last decade. We're not talking TVs or Cell phone chargers but massive water pumps.

The last Liabour government made it mandatory that regional councils had to clean up the air and placed limits on the amount of air polution that was permitted in any area. To comply with this many regional councils outlawed solid fuel burners and open fires in certain areas including Christchurch. people in these affected areas had to replace those nice warm fires with heat pumps which of course use more of that electrickery.

This extra demand in Canterbury, Nelson and the west coast (ie the Upper South Island) has caused considerable strain on the South Island grid. hence the need for either the Mokihinui scheme or a new coal fired station on the west coast. Solar and wind just wont do it.

[Jantar]

...Our biggest electrickery issues are the hugely inefficient single Cook Strait cable and the attendant transmission losses, plus things like Manapouri not being generally used for National Grid power supply.
...
I'm not sure just what you are getting at here Jim. All of Manapouri's generation goes into the grid. There was a time shortly after the electricity market was formed that Meridian didn't offer Manapouri into the market but treated it as being specific for Tiwai point. But that situation changed about 10 years ago. Right now Manapouri is generating 634 MW and selling it all into the market. Tiwai is using 579 MW and buying it all from the market.

The Cook straight cable is an issue that needs correcting, but the biggest problem our electricity sytem is facing right now is too much wind variability. We are just about at saturation point for wind farms. They are causing line constraints and reserve issues far greater than any hydro or thermal station ever could.

[sAsLEX]

The Cook straight cable is an issue that needs correcting, but the biggest problem our electricity sytem is facing right now is too much wind variability. We are just about at saturation point for wind farms. They are causing line constraints and reserve issues far greater than any hydro or thermal station ever could.

What is the lead time for something like the cable? 7 years probably? Typical NZ thinking we are fixing that problem too late. How much power is flowing north these days?



Nuclear?

[James Deuce]

I'm not sure just what you are getting at here Jim.

No neither do I. I argued the point and caved after 2 "Government experts" browbeat me about it. I'll stick to my guns in future.

[Pixie]

And we need more life out of these doohickies too,not throw them away after 12 months.

28 years ago as a struggling single income family,we were sick of the throw away vacuum cleaners,and spent some serious dosh on a Tellus.Last week the on/off switch crapped out....I fixed it (no,my wife did,she was trained in such mechanical switches) by pulling it apart and cleaning the contacts,but couldn't rerivet it back together.Got a new switch today and it's running again.28 years and all it's needed is a switch and a hose because a series of 4 toddlers kept standing on it.

What happened to quality!!?? These days we are such a moaning and complaining lot of bastards,but we are happy for manufacturers to off load high tech crap on us that we toss away without a thought when it doesn't go any more.

You can still buy quality.Just check it does not have the letters F and P on it.

Btw the largest growth in energy usage is on these computters we are all wasting our lives on.

[James Deuce]

Btw the largest growth in energy usage is on these computters we are all wasting our lives on.

Consumption figures for computers are minuscule compared to what was required to drive the average 17" CRT of 10 years ago, and the widespread adoption of the S3 power scheme as the default means that computers are using only the power they need to do tasks they are performing right now.

[Pixie]

The Cook straight cable is an issue that needs correcting, but the biggest problem our electricity sytem is facing right now is too much wind variability. We are just about at saturation point for wind farms. They are causing line constraints and reserve issues far greater than any hydro or thermal station ever could.

You lie!!
A hippy told me wind power has absolutely no downsides.
And Nukular power is an open portal straight into Hell,so all the demons can come out and feast on our living flesh.

[Pixie]

Consumption figures for computers are minuscule compared to what was required to drive the average 17" CRT of 10 years ago, and the widespread adoption of the S3 power scheme as the default means that computers are using only the power they need to do tasks they are performing right now.

The Global IT industry with all it's servers etc is a major and growing energy drain.

[James Deuce]

The Global IT industry with all it's servers etc is a major and growing energy drain.

Having provisioned a large number of servers in the last little while, as well as migrating physical servers into the virtual space I can say with firm conviction that the floor space occupied by servers and storage is diminishing rapidly, and the environmental requirements to run 10 servers are around 1/10th of what they were 5 years ago. The wholesale adoption of Virtual Infrastructure is turning rack consolidation into a business. We peaked about 8 months ago and were struggling to fit more stuff into our data centres. We're now struggling to fill NZ's flashest data centre, simply because we can house 60 average business servers and their storage in 2 racks rather than the 12 of 8 months ago.

[Pixie]

Computer servers 'as bad' for climate as SUVs
14:29 03 December 2007 by Catherine Brahic

Computer servers are at least as great a threat to the climate as SUVs or the global aviation industry, warns a new report.

Global Action Plan, a UK-based environmental organisation, publishes a report today drawing attention to the carbon footprint of the IT industry in the UK.

"Computers are seen as quite benign things sitting on your desk," says Trewin Restorick, director of the group. "But, for instance, in our charity we have one server. That server has the same annual carbon footprint as your average SUV doing 15 miles to the gallon. Yet, whereas the SUV is seen as a villain from the environmental perspective, the server is not."

The report, An Inefficient Truth, states that with more than 1 billion computers on the planet, the global IT sector is responsible for about 2% of human carbon dioxide emissions each year - a similar figure to the global airline industry.

The energy consumption is driven largely by vast amounts of customer and user data that are stored on the computer servers in most businesses. The rate at which data storage is growing surpasses the growth in the airline industry: in 2006, 48% more data storage capacity was sold in the UK than in 2005, while the number of plane passengers grew by 3%.
Unknown cost

The group ran a survey of some of the largest businesses in the UK in an attempt to find out how aware the industry is of its carbon footprint.

The survey revealed that more than half of the IT professionals surveyed believed their environmental impact was "significant", however:

• 86% of them do not know the carbon footprint of their activities

• two thirds of the departments they work for are not responsible for paying their own energy bills

• more than half do not even see those bills

The bottom line is that IT departments "are buying lots and lots of kit that they have to run and cool without knowing what the energy cost of that kit is", says Restorick.

The survey also revealed that considerable amounts of electricity could be saved by more efficient data storage: 60% of the departments said they were using less than half their storage capacity and 37% said they are storing data indefinitely.

Restorick told New Scientist that simply increasing the efficiency of energy use and data storage could easily cut 30% of power use in businesses. "In theory, this could happen overnight," he says.

[James Deuce]

The picture has changed massively since 2007. That article is firmly historic in nature.

There's a quiet revolution happening in the background and it is motivated mostly by cost, but the benefit is a hugely reduced carbon footprint.

[scissorhands]

Farmers/landowners should be allowed to generate and sell power to the grid. A wind gen costs a couple of million $$, but will return very well around the windy west coast, just south and north of Auckland.

[Motu]

Right now Manapouri is generating 634 MW and selling it all into the market. Tiwai is using 579 MW and buying it all from the market.


Smoke and mirrors.

[pritch]

So it's not us NORMAL people what are doing it. We're using LESS electrickery, not more.



Heat pump sales are booming and I'm told that they make a big difference to the power bill. In the direction of up.

Mention was made on the radio a while back of "vampire" appliances. All those things on standby. The "standby" effect on power consumption was mentioned on TV in the past week or so too.

My power bill is modest and I try and keep it that way. My old PC with big CRT monitor has died, and I'm looking around the house at what else I can turn off instead of run on standby

[peasea]

Anyway , anyone know if they're gonna build that dam or not?

There is a proposal only at this stage. Just Google it.
http://www.forestandbird.org.nz/what-we-do/campaigns/save-mokihinui-damn-dam

I have signed a petition opposing the scheme and spoken to locals about it; we spent NY there, just mention the word 'dam' on the West Coast and you'll have a lengthy conversation on your hands.

You're right, it is a beautiful spot and I reckon there must be some alternative. However, the argument for the dam suggests overall savings to West Coast consumers because so much power is lost (the big-wigs say) in just getting it to the area.

I would suggest that if the dam IS built West Coast consumers will see none of the suggested savings, they'll lose a beautiful valley and electicity company profits will rise. But then I'm just a cynical old fart.

[sAsLEX]

Smoke and mirrors.

Yes.

What price does Tiwai pay?

[puddytat]

Last evening I went to a presentation here in Murchison by the internationally renowned photographer Craig Potton who spoke on behalf of the Wild Rivers group. Most of the presentation was about the Mohikinui River, but a large part was about the dams that are threatening Murchison itself, 3 are planned for the Matakitaki river which runs through Murchison. IT IS THE MOST KAYAKED & RAFTED RIVER IN THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE. Mick Hopkins runs the world renowned NZ Kayak School here, which runs multi day courses for nearly all the Polytechnics in N.Z.(He was one of the forst people to Kayak the Nile from its source & also the Ganges).
Interesting facts that came out is that Murchison makes 23 million bucks a year from its rivers with the Kayakers,Rafters & the extremely well heeled fisherman who come here year after year to fish one of the finest Brown Trout fisheries in the world..... as opposed to the 7 million wholesale that these stupid fucking dams & schemes in a Earthquake Zone A area. So Murch. has to foot the bill & potentially stands to lose far,far more than these schemes will ever make for 30 lousy MW?:Oi::nono:
They are wanting to put a 43 metre dam at Horseshoe bridge that'll flood a large area of braided river flats ,home to large ammounts of breeding birds....all near an active fault line. I wouldnt want to live in Murchison with that upstream.:(
Did you know that N.Z could save 6000mw a year with an efficency programme? Thats twice what ALL the proposed schemes are hoping to produce without a single dam. Go figure!!
So here's all these private schemes, (talleys & the like) that get to fuck everyone over.:mad:
As for the Mohikinui, I have rafted its length & its stunning. Apart from the construction, there will be no jobs created as they are all unmanned schemes. So my mates & fellow townsfolk will lose out...we rely on the tourist here.
I agree that we will need more power , but surely schemes like this that totally stuff some of the most pristine rivers in N.Z that'll only last if they're lucky a 100 years then they will be silted up & useless.....surely windfarms in the middle of nowhere have got to be more eco-friendly...visual impact only as opposed to the footprint of flooded valleys,fucked local economies & flooding in the case of the Mohikinui, large areas of a designated Wilderness Areas inside a National park. A very dangerous precedent...
Its a joke when they say "Oh , you will get a nice lake to go boaties on" . Well we dont need another fuckin' lake man!! Theres 2 just round the corner- lakes Rotoiti & Rotoroa.
Oh & who is the Minister that'll have a lot to say on this? That :tugger:Nick Smith. I can see another set of crosshairs on his forhead.:ar15:

[James Deuce]

Heat pump sales are booming and I'm told that they make a big difference to the power bill. In the direction of up.



Ours dropped 30% since we got ours installed, along with a ventilation system. We never spend more than $380 on a winter power bill and we have 3 kids. We thrash ours.

[Kickaha]

Heat pump sales are booming and I'm told that they make a big difference to the power bill. In the direction of up.

Not in my experience even when it's running 24/7

[MSTRS]

...They've put a stack of money aside for it already.

From the AC Current account? :rolleyes:

[James Deuce]

From the AC Current account? :rolleyes:

Nah the 4 billion they overcharged us.

[MSTRS]

Heat pump sales are booming and I'm told that they make a big difference to the power bill. In the direction of up.



That depends on what you currently pay for other types of heating. +$50/month is way cheaper than the firewood we used to rely on.

[Jantar]

.
. So Murch. has to foot the bill & potentially stands to lose far,far more than these schemes will ever make for 30 lousy MW?:Oi::nono:......

Did you know that N.Z could save 6000mw a year with an efficency programme? Thats twice what ALL the proposed schemes are hoping to produce without a single dam. Go figure!!...

Mmmm. Not often we see the data to contradict the claim in the same post. A 30 MW power station at a very conservative 50% load factor (ie its average generation is 50% of its peak) would produce 30 x 24 x 365 x 50% = 262800 MWh per year. This is considerably more that the 6000 MWh per year you claim we could save from efficiency gains.

Or perhaps you dont mean an energy figure of 6000 MWh per year, but an actual power useage saving of 6000 MW (without the per year attached). This may be possible but as it is equal to the country's actual demand of 6000 MW that means using no electricity at all. Is this really achievable just through efficiency gains?

The fact remains that we need more generation in the north and west of the South Island, and we need it soon. Otherwise power restrictions or blackouts will soon affect Christchurch, Nelson and the west coast.

[puddytat]

Yeah you maybe right it may have been the 6000mw figure, but Im just going on what I head last night. The 30 mw was from one of the 3 propoosed dams on the Matakitaki.....but I stick by my main point that for a lousy 7 million they are considering putting at risk a towns income of 27 million, from tourism alone.
I will go searching & try & get my facts straight.

[mashman]

So are you all essentially saying, it's us (or whoever needs all of this electricity) or just one more ecosystem?

[Jantar]

So are you all essentially saying, it's us (or whoever needs all of this electricity) or just one more ecosystem?
Pretty much sums it up. Or a coal fired station on the west coast rather than hydro, either will help fix the problem.

[Jantar]

Yeah you maybe right it may have been the 6000mw figure, but Im just going on what I head last night. The 30 mw was from one of the 3 propoosed dams on the Matakitaki.....but I stick by my main point that for a lousy 7 million they are considering putting at risk a towns income of 27 million, from tourism alone.
I will go searching & try & get my facts straight.

A 30 MW dam and power station will cost considerably more than $7m. Try more like $70m for a very cheap one.

$7m will buy a 2 MW scheme without any resource consent costs.

[puddytat]

;)Yeah, but so would shitloads of hot water cylinder wraps,compulsory solar water units for new houses or windmills....

The 7mill. figure is the revenue per year that it would generate at wholesale rates, not the cost of the scheme...sorry if I wasnt clear on that.
So what I was trying to say was that stuffing up our tourism here in Murch.for 7 mill a year does not compute against the 27 mill in tourist income from the likes of fishing lodges, commercial rafting, NZ Kajak school,etc. Most of that comes from the high end market thru the Lodges...we get a lot of very rich folk from all around the world who for them ,money is not a problem.
Mohikinui will only have a life span of 100 years as it will fill up with silt & debris...then what?
Jantar,I too see the need for more generation capacity, but surely gains from efficency should be tried first.You can get a lot of cylinder wraps for the price of a dam.

[sAsLEX]

Pretty much sums it up. Or a coal fired station on the west coast rather than hydro, either will help fix the problem.

COAL!

You planet killing bastard!





yes I know modern coal can be clean, but try getting that through to the populace.

[Motu]

modern coal can be clean,

Oh,have they made some new stuff?

[James Deuce]

Yes. Out of compressed dunny rolls.

[Jantar]

;)Yeah, but so would shitloads of hot water cylinder wraps,compulsory solar water units for new houses or windmills....
...Mohikinui will only have a life span of 100 years as it will fill up with silt & debris...then what?
Jantar,I too see the need for more generation capacity, but surely gains from efficency should be tried first.You can get a lot of cylinder wraps for the price of a dam.
If the estimate of useful life before the dam silts up is 100 years, that just means that it is 100 years before it needs to implement a flushing regime. Not that the dam has to be shut down in 100 years.

I agree that cylinder wraps, insulation, low energy light bulbs etc should all be used, and I believe that New Zealand already has a better than 50% usage. So lets assume that no domestic properties in the upper South Island have cylinder wraps and work out how much energy could be saved if all homes installed them.

A cylinder wrap improves the efficiency of a hot water cylinder by around 15%, and as an average domestic home without a cylinder wrap uses around 30% of its energy in hot water that means we could save 15% of 30% or a total of 4.5% of domestic energy. The upper south island current consumes around 800 MW of power and domestic use is about 40% of this, so if we installed wraps in every home in the upper south island we would save 4.5% of 40% of 800 MW. That is a saving of 14.4 MW.

However if we assume that half of all homes already have wraps then that saving comes down to 7.2 MW. This is still much less than the increase in generation required.

[Swoop]

Farmers/landowners should be allowed to generate and sell power to the grid. A wind gen costs a couple of million $$, but will return very well around the windy west coast, just south and north of Auckland.
Sorry. The ultra greenies have over-ruled the regular greenies on this. Wind generated power (south of d'Auckland) makes noise that "disturbs the horses".

Serious.

[Pussy]

Sorry. The ultra greenies have over-ruled the regular greenies on this. Wind generated power (south of d'Auckland) makes noise that "disturbs the horses".

Serious.

And those dirty big wind turbines "disturb" ag pilots, too

[sAsLEX]

Oh,have they made some new stuff?

Oh read it so literal.

Modern power stations using coal.

[Swoop]

And those dirty big wind turbines "disturb" ag pilots, too
Eh?
They are "disturbed" enough already...:rofl:

[Pussy]

Eh?
They are "disturbed" enough already...:rofl:

Look mate.... I used to be REALLY stupid, but I'm better now! :crazy:

[taff1954]

Geothermal power generation with waste fluid re-injection is a fairly good option - either dry steam, flash or binary cycle. And plenty of opportunity in these shaky isles.

The Aussies are getting into hot rock steam generation these days - in areas where there is no actual geothermal activity.

[Jantar]

Geothermal power generation with waste fluid re-injection is a fairly good option - either dry steam, flash or binary cycle. And plenty of opportunity in these shaky isles.

The Aussies are getting into hot rock steam generation these days - in areas where there is no actual geothermal activity.

No opportunity for traditional geothermal other than Hamner or Muria Springs. Even then these two would be very small schemes and we would have the same issues that affect Murchison. Loss of natural springs and hence tourist trade for a few MW. As for the Hot Rock technology. its nice in principle but:


It's interesting that the heat itself comes from the decay of radioactive materials. So if you're passing water through fractured rock where you have decaying, radioactive material how contaminated is the water going to be? And what's the potential for an environmental problem there?

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/earth/stories/s18546.htm

[R6_kid]

Sorry. The ultra greenies have over-ruled the regular greenies on this. Wind generated power (south of d'Auckland) makes noise that "disturbs the horses".

I don't remember hearing anything when I stopped by the wind farm to the East of Palmerston North. Yes they were spinning.

Also, what's this bullshit about 'visual pollution'? That ridgeline looked boring as hell before they put the wind farm on it. I've seen billboards that look a hundred times worse - for instance the ones that Brian Tamaki currently has up around South and East Auckland.

[taff1954]

No opportunity for traditional geothermal other than Hamner or Muria Springs. Even then these two would be very schemes and we would have the same issues that affect Murchison. Loss of natural springs and hence tourist trade for a few MW. As for the Hot Rock technology. its nice in principle but:



http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/earth/stories/s18546.htm

No argument with that - I understand there's been no beds identified in NZ as ideal for hot rock anyway (at least up until I quit the drilling industry 2 years ago). But after working at Wairakei, and then being involved in the drilling of 20 plus wells in the Taupo / Whakamaru / Kawerau areas I rather like geothermal drilling. 2000 metre postholes, and a lot less of the bullshit you get on hydocarbon wells.

[sAsLEX]

As for the Hot Rock technology. its nice in principle but:





Bore some pipes nice and deep in the return path, use this as a sealed system to gather the heat from depth and transport to the surface to heat a secondary loop?

[Jantar]

Bore some pipes nice and deep in the return path, use this as a sealed system to gather the heat from depth and transport to the surface to heat a secondary loop?
Do we have any sufficiently highly radioactive rock in the desired area?

[sAsLEX]

Do we have any sufficiently highly radioactive rock in the desired area?

Its hot pretty much everywhere if you go deep enough. Highly oversimplifying this I know. But a stable structure of not too hard rock, whack a pipe down in a big u bend and steal the heat......

[Jantar]

Its hot pretty much everywhere if you go deep enough. Highly oversimplifying this I know. But a stable structure of not too hard rock, whack a pipe down in a big u bend and steal the heat......
Geology is outside my field of expertise, but from what I have read there is nowhere in New Zealand suitable for either DHR or FHR technology. I hope someone does drill a test well to either confirm or refute this.

[taff1954]

Its hot pretty much everywhere if you go deep enough. Highly oversimplifying this I know. But a stable structure of not too hard rock, whack a pipe down in a big u bend and steal the heat......

Hard enough drilling a horizontal well. A 180 deg. turn? At 3 deg / 100m, a 6000m plus hole. Doubt it. And you'd need to be in at least 12 1/4" hole. Drill 2 wells, fracture the formation between and pump in cold water, bring up steam. Plus radioactive elements. Hence we don't do that in NZ. And not too hard rock? The hot rock formations are usually granite. Not too bad for drilling into, but still pretty tough going.

The biggest issue with geothermal is field depletion. Look at what's happened to Rotorua. At the end of the day though, we need to look really hard at energy conservation so we DON'T need more power stations.

[sAsLEX]

Hard enough drilling a horizontal well. A 180 deg. turn? At 3 deg / 100m, a 6000m plus hole. Doubt it. And you'd need to be in at least 12 1/4" hole. Drill 2 wells, fracture the formation between and pump in cold water, bring up steam. Plus radioactive elements. Hence we don't do that in NZ. And not too hard rock? The hot rock formations are usually granite. Not too bad for drilling into, but still pretty tough going.

The biggest issue with geothermal is field depletion. Look at what's happened to Rotorua. At the end of the day though, we need to look really hard at energy conservation so we DON'T need more power stations.

So just drill two at an angle and intersect........like a V!

[peasea]

Ya see? HD had it sussed from day one.

The alternative? A bunch of niggers in a ferris wheel.

Works for me.

[Jantar]

... At the end of the day though, we need to look really hard at energy conservation so we DON'T need more power stations.

As the following posts show, we have already gone beyond the point where energy conservation will help the upper South Island. We need new power generation, or energy replacement (eg replace those heat pumps in Canterbury with log burners)


.... Either a new power station is needed in the upper South Island / West Coast area, or new and massive power lines need to be built into the region. Every year now the situation is getting worse in this area, and there are two main reasons: Irrigation and the Clean Air Act.

As more and more farms are being converted from dry crop to dairy there is a growing need for irrigation. Many of these irrigation systems require huge pumps with an equally huge demand for power. There has been around a 400% increase in irrigation power demand in the last decade. We're not talking TVs or Cell phone chargers but massive water pumps.

The last Liabour government made it mandatory that regional councils had to clean up the air and placed limits on the amount of air polution that was permitted in any area. To comply with this many regional councils outlawed solid fuel burners and open fires in certain areas including Christchurch. people in these affected areas had to replace those nice warm fires with heat pumps which of course use more of that electrickery.

This extra demand in Canterbury, Nelson and the west coast (ie the Upper South Island) has caused considerable strain on the South Island grid. Hence the need for either the Mokihinui scheme or a new coal fired station on the west coast. Solar and wind just wont do it.



Mmmm. Not often we see the data to contradict the claim in the same post. A 30 MW power station at a very conservative 50% load factor (ie its average generation is 50% of its peak) would produce 30 x 24 x 365 x 50% = 262800 MWh per year. This is considerably more that the 6000 MWh per year you claim we could save from efficiency gains.

Or perhaps you dont mean an energy figure of 6000 MWh per year, but an actual power useage saving of 6000 MW (without the per year attached). This may be possible but as it is equal to the country's actual demand of 6000 MW that means using no electricity at all. Is this really achievable just through efficiency gains?

The fact remains that we need more generation in the north and west of the South Island, and we need it soon. Otherwise power restrictions or blackouts will soon affect Christchurch, Nelson and the west coast.


.....
I agree that cylinder wraps, insulation, low energy light bulbs etc should all be used, and I believe that New Zealand already has a better than 50% usage. So lets assume that no domestic properties in the upper South Island have cylinder wraps and work out how much energy could be saved if all homes installed them.

A cylinder wrap improves the efficiency of a hot water cylinder by around 15%, and as an average domestic home without a cylinder wrap uses around 30% of its energy in hot water that means we could save 15% of 30% or a total of 4.5% of domestic energy. The upper south island current consumes around 800 MW of power and domestic use is about 40% of this, so if we installed wraps in every home in the upper south island we would save 4.5% of 40% of 800 MW. That is a saving of 14.4 MW.

However if we assume that half of all homes already have wraps then that saving comes down to 7.2 MW. This is still much less than the increase in generation required.

[oldrider]

I been there . Good place. Ought to be left alone. Like it was intended to be.

For some reason the NZ National geographic sent me a free magazine . Dunno why, I certainly ain't paying for it. But in it there was a bit about the Manapouri protests. I remember them.

And it said they want to build another bloody dam, on the Mokihinui.

Now, I sure as hell ain't no greenie. But I reckon they ought to step back and take a long hard look at that .

Anyone know if its going ahead?

And why do we need more of the damn stuff? We should have surplus, ought to be using less every year. Almost everything nowadays uses less electrickery than it used it. I remember valve radios, used amps and amps, practically needed their own hydro station. Now, ICs use milliamps. Electric range, used shit loads. Now, microwaves use bugger all. We ought to have a surplus.

So how come they reckon we need more? When I was a lad, lots of people didn't have it at all, they managed fine. Now we get told we need more and more every year. Maybe it's time we said, no, y' gotta use less not more.

Not hard , really. Junk the central heating and airconditioning for a start. Cold? Put more clothes on. Hot? Take 'em off. (chicks, take 'em off anyway :devil2: ) We have a temperate climate never gets very hot or cold.

When you use lectrickery up, it doesn't just disappear y'know . Goes somewhere, everything goes somewhere. Mainly, into heat. Amount we're using nowadays, it's a wonder we aren't boiled alive.

Maybe if they tried turning out all the bloody office lights at night, eh?

Anyway , anyone know if they're gonna build that dam or not?

If you are serious about questioning the value of electricity, simply ring your power supply company and request to have it cut off!

Don't ask for it to be reinstated until you actually need it and feel you are more in touch with it's value and are prepared to pay the going rate for it.

Otherwise make your own, it is quite easy to do, just far more expensive (and less reliable) than what you can buy it from an existing supplier for! :yes:

I don't think you will leave it disconnected for very long! :no: