Approach to the future of our cause

[drummer]

"They" (and I am unsure as to who "They" are... the Nats... ACC... Nicksta and his advisers.. the public) will not listen or have to pay attention to a few KB members talking of disruption and "War".

Dusrupting peoples lives IS NOT going to win us the so called war.. good grief... use your heads.. politics is what will win us the fight.. I have said time and time again that the way to fight party policy (and NEVER forget this IS our fight... you want to fight the whole Nat government... I hate to say this... you're dreaming) is to attack the party thinking from the weakest link... firstly..,. do you really believe for one tiny moment in your talk of disruption "shutting down cities" and public annoyance that Joe and Mary Blow will think "Oh gosh... them bike riders are right... NO they think we have won a concession... and we should be grateful.. It may be the wrong perception.. but who gives a dam about that? Its THEIR perception.

Also re the talk about unions joing our fight and marching with us.. oh give me a break... union membership is at it's lowest in years. Plus the Nats don't care about unions.. why? Because they all vote Labour anyhow! Also... want to alienate half the bikers in NZ... simple.. get unions involved... no.. this is OUR fight... let them do their thing... and have their flag waving banner bearing little shouting marches in the rain outside some place... but ever seen the numbers of people in them.. and talked with them... no Nats at all.. and numbers decreasing all the time.. the last one I saw was a group of drenched men outside some factory in South Auckland saying let us in... let us in... great protest... and not very intelligent... from what I know it failed... the factory was shut up next time and the lease up...

Fundementally what we as KB passionate motorcyclists need to do is to firstly convince ALL.. well as many as we can.. (and thats a big task) riders that we the motorcycle and scooter riders of NZ need to be united in a common cause... bring the groups together.. right now I know people who ride who just shake their heads when all this war and disruption is mentioned.. I was at a staff Christmas function last night.. spent half the night explaining the reality of our plight to three guys and a lady who rode bikes... but who never protested or even knew about any actions... strange huh... NO... but to people here it would seem strange... I mean ... lets see 5000 bikes at Welly... about 100 at the important Smith meeting in Auckland... how many rego'ed bikes in NZ? A lot more I know that for sure. I also know ALL of the people I spoke with were surprised that I, a former Nat exec branch member was unhappy... and ALL of them were Nat voters.

I even see here an attack and name calling of scooter riders... give it a break... attacking the fastest growing sector of NZ transport and some very intelligent people aint going to win us those people...

There you go... some of you want war... disruption...personal attacks against Smith.. thats an uneducated illinformed way to change policy... We at the moment are lets face it are a small voting block whose members mostly are left leaning... lets get real... However.. many many many motorcyclists like myself are not left leaning... I actually like John Key as a leader... but.. and this is the crux... a few policies including this major one re ACC have me really pissed off.. for every one of "me" there are huge numbers out there from all political angles who are the same. They won't and don't support a small group of bikers who want to disrupt traffic, "close down cities", cause mayhem and annoy the great working public... these people mostly drive cars to work... I do... to carry my guitars drums and amps etc.. try that on a bike... then there are those who ride scooters to look "cool"... Guys in K road, little chickie babes who's miniskirts blow up at any speed... great look... but totally unsafe... just go round Tamaki drive on a hot summers day and see what I mean.

Do you really think that traffic disruptions, threats, declarations of war and involving left leaning unions in chanting walks down city streets is going to change the (popular.. look at the polls!!) governments policies..? You must be dreaming.

No folks... to attack a cause... stealth organisation of resources and intelligence is required... in modern warfare even... its not about dropping bombs on everyone.. its about SMART bombing and stealth..

So what do we do?... I have started a new thread (Approach to the future of our cause) to discuss this and put this post as first post... where am I coming from? I have been involved with politics and political change for nearly 30 years... 17 years in Australia.. I saw the Hanson thing happen before my very eyes... I was close to the action and didn't agree with her at all... Together with a dedicated group we totally changed the face of politics in an area of nearly 200,000 people.. and a wider region of more than a million and brought change Nationally in certain areas...

I know the National party here.. I know how they work and the structures they use... war by disruption and fuelled by emotional anger is a way to failure.. I can PROMISE you that... however.. if you want to call it war do so... but I call it pressure... put unbelieveable pressure on the weakest links by as great a number of ordinary motorcyclists and scooter riders we can muster... some of us need to embrace the concept of working within the system... and at times outiside when we face a brick wall... but if you think we are facing a brick wall now and the only way is to break it down, then sorry... you WILL NOT achieve the end result. The wall will grow far larger.

We need a goverment who thinks its very own supporters will turn... will leave the party membership... stop the donations, and essentually make the next election a tough one... the biggest thing political parties need apart from voters getting them elected is people who give their time assisting in things... putting up signs, door knocking etc... branches have a little competition within electorates to sign up the most members... and get the most money... like I said... do you really honestly think scaremongering by carpet bombing is the answer?

Lets discuss and plan a co-ordinated strong intelligent effective mature approach to our problem... lets come up with a strong co-ordinated argument that gets as many motorcycle riding and scooter riding people on board... lets attack with stealth and a groudswell of people who will eventually convince this government riding high in the polls that the ACC levies are unfair, unworkable and unjustified.. Lts convince this government and it's allies like ACT, United future and the Maori party that it will be if anything a minority unworkable government at the very most after the next election IF it continues its present policy lines.. and for us thats ACC levies and dare I say it the climate change issues regarding the advantage of people riding bikes.. lets get the people who matter onside by intelligent co-ordinated public debate about our nation's future and a system that has worked well for a good deal of time... let's make John Judge feel uneasy... and give the government no choice but to sack him... look at his failures... there are too many to list.

Who here wants that?

Or who here wants to disrupt, annoy and declare war on the majoirity..and truly believes it is the way...? Who wants to confront angry car drivers who just want to get to work? Who here wants to get scooterists offside by calling them names... ?

Not me!

Peter (Drummer on KB)

[Sis]

I hear you .
I am with you on this.
Just waiting quietly in the wings, ready for the next step.

[drummer]

I hear you .
I am with you on this.
Just waiting quietly in the wings, ready for the next step.Good on you... lets start the actions... pm me we need a co-ordinated approach from people who want to use intelligence over disruption and getting people offside...

Thanks

Peter

[Headbanger]

So......No night sky lit up by burning cities?


:(



Uh....Not I read your post, far to many words.

[drummer]

So......No night sky lit up by burning cities?
Didn't work for Germany and it caused a mess for America and the Soviets after WWll.. so no!

Uh....Not I read your post, far to many words.
Try and find the time... it was meant to be serious and a call for people to think... I am sure you will find some good ideas in it..

Thanks

Peter

[NONONO]

Drummer, there you go again you mad bastard.
Have a look at the ACC Futures Coalition site and see just which organizations are involved in the fight....
See the young Nats there? Or the Round Table?
Jeeeeezus!

[drummer]

Drummer, there you go again you mad bastard.
Have a look at the ACC Futures Coalition site and see just which organizations are involved in the fight....
See the young Nats there? Or the Round Table?
Jeeeeezus!I will check... but I doubt the young Nats are... anyhow... the Young Nats and the round table all could have riders...

This fight for me is about bikers and scooter riders... yes... we as a group need to embrace organisations like this but first we need to get ourselves united... stop declaring ar on the public... don't you agree with that?

Peter

[bogan]

tldr, maybe some summary bullet points would be benificial;)

Bits i skim read show you are against disruptive protest. To get public on-side would be the best way obviously, but if that don't work what other options do we have? keep trying, or give up and cause disruption are the only ones I can think of

[drummer]

Anyone interested in getting people who ride but not KBikers or protest participants in the past... regester your interest here..

P

[MSTRS]

... stop declaring war on the public...

Where did anyone say that? The public are not and never will be the target. Collateral damage, maybe. Obviously, it is unfortunate, but unavoidable IF protests move to a more 'earthy' militant style.
It is all about making those pricks in National take note....
There are many ways of making that happen. Yours is just as valid as 'rioting' in the streets.

[Headbanger]

Try and find the time... it was meant to be serious and a call for people to think... I am sure you will find some good ideas in it..

Thanks


Chances are slim, I can think for myself and have no idea who you think you are.

I'll wait and see what the likes of Stoney, Mom, Nasty, Les etc etc suggest, and I'll decide whether to be part of it or not.

[mikeey01]

politics is what will win us the fight.. I have said time and time again that the way to fight party policy (and NEVER forget this IS our fight... you want to fight the whole Nat government... I hate to say this... you're dreaming) (Drummer on KB)

Spring box tour comes to mind here and that political approach you talk of, worked a treat aye. Yeah right!

You keep that fight going your end, which up to this point has been a huge success and on top of this lets see how they like a taste with the gloves off for a bit!
Never under estimate what resources are available too and how much this can achieve.

Peter, what "they" are trying to do is bull shit, you and I both know it.
Keep up the good fight and just watch things get ramped up a tad eh?.

[drummer]

tldr, maybe some summary bullet points would be benificial;)

Bits i skim read show you are against disruptive protest. To get public on-side would be the best way obviously, but if that don't work what other options do we have? keep trying, or give up and cause disruption are the only ones I can think ofOK.. fair comment but please read the post and give the whole idea some thought.

I don't think we will get Joe onside so to speak as a banner waving supporter of bikes and scooters... but we don't want them OFFSIDE!! theres a difference... angry people with no organised approach are effective in putting up walls not tearing them down... why... because there are a minority of us at the moment... even amongst riders.. what e first need to do is get all riders e can onside then we start a campaign that will make Smith Judge and the policy of funding others from OUR levies look pathetic... e need to get the Joe and Jill Public who do ride but aren't in our ranks currently to be onside... and we do want to make Nat supporters who ride think about what their party is doing... and hopefully ensure they put pressure on their own leaders..

We need to start somewhere... so far.. I agree with les Mason who whilst not agreeing the changes were great did say that we had some effect... and we did it in a short time... we now have time to take breath and make our numbers bigger... that to me is our first goal.

Peter

[mikeey01]

Politics is what will win us the fight.. I have said time and time again that the way to fight party policy (and NEVER forget this IS our fight... you want to fight the whole Nat government... I hate to say this... you're dreaming) (Drummer on KB)

Spring box tour comes to mind here and the above approach worked a treat, yeah right!

You keep the fight going your way, which up to this point has been a huge success and on top of this lets see how they like a taste with the gloves off for abit!

Peter, you and they have sadly estimated how many options are available to the gloves off group, which is steadily growing.



I know the National party here.. I know how they work and the structures they use... war by disruption and fuelled by emotional anger is a way to failure.. I can PROMISE you that... however.. if you want to call it war do so... but I call it pressure... put unbelieveable pressure on the weakest links by as great a number of ordinary motorcyclists and scooter riders we can muster... some of us need to embrace the concept of working within the system... and at times outiside when we face a brick wall... but if you think we are facing a brick wall now and the only way is to break it down, then sorry... you WILL NOT achieve the end result. The wall will grow far larger.

Then give it all you've got!
As for brick walls, it's easy to smash them down, been done in the past and can easily be done again.

[BMWST?]

"They" (and I am unsure as to who "They" are... the Nats... ACC... Nicksta and his advisers.. the public) will not listen or have to pay attention to a few KB members talking of disruption and "War".



you are partly right,we need actions from within,but we DO need the "public" part as well.That keeps people in the news,makes people think "hmm whtas this about,catches the attention of the scooterists and non kb people...

[drummer]

Spring box tour comes to mind here and that political above approach worked a treat, yeah right!

You keep that fight going your end, which up to this point has been a huge success and on top of this lets see how they like a taste with the gloves off for a bit! Never under estimate what resources are available too and how much this can achieve.

Peter, what "they" are trying to do is bull shit, you and I both know it.
Keep up the good fight and just watch things get ramped up a tad eh?.The springbok tour protests (I was there) was in numbers supported by a if not a majority.. a very large perxcentage of the public..

Thanks for the statement about success,,, I know and aren't unrealistic that some will want to fight and disrupt... NZ is a democracy and we have the right to protest... I am merely saying... ok... heres my idea.. its on the table... if people like it... then lets discuss tactics...

I totally agree what "they" are doing and have done before the Nats is bullshit... we always paid more under Labour too... I for one never saw that as fair... its not about for me at least one party or another... its about fundemental fairness and equity, leading to a policy change that embraces those things

Thanks

Peter

[bogan]

OK.. fair comment but please read the post and give the whole idea some thought.


sorry but i really cant be assed, it waffles on, and is repetitive.




I don't think we will get Joe onside so to speak as a banner waving supporter of bikes and scooters... but we don't want them OFFSIDE!! theres a difference... angry people with no organised approach are effective in putting up walls not tearing them down... why... because there are a minority of us at the moment... even amongst riders.. what e first need to do is get all riders e can onside then we start a campaign that will make Smith Judge and the policy of funding others from OUR levies look pathetic... e need to get the Joe and Jill Public who do ride but aren't in our ranks currently to be onside... and we do want to make Nat supporters who ride think about what their party is doing... and hopefully ensure they put pressure on their own leaders..

We need to start somewhere... so far.. I agree with les Mason who whilst not agreeing the changes were great did say that we had some effect... and we did it in a short time... we now have time to take breath and make our numbers bigger... that to me is our first goal.

Peter

I agree with most of what you have written, but whats the game plan gonna be then? saying we should get people on side could be like saying we should get S Myth to turn into an honest bloke! We need stratergy, timeframe, acceptable results, and contingencies.

We are having a park up protest in palmy and flyer/petition distribution next weekend, so I'll be much better educated to public opinion then.

[NONONO]

OK.. fair comment but please read the post and give the whole idea some thought.

I don't think we will get Joe onside so to speak as a banner waving supporter of bikes and scooters... but we don't want them OFFSIDE!! theres a difference... angry people with no organised approach are effective in putting up walls not tearing them down... why... because there are a minority of us at the moment... even amongst riders.. what e first need to do is get all riders e can onside then we start a campaign that will make Smith Judge and the policy of funding others from OUR levies look pathetic... e need to get the Joe and Jill Public who do ride but aren't in our ranks currently to be onside... and we do want to make Nat supporters who ride think about what their party is doing... and hopefully ensure they put pressure on their own leaders..

We need to start somewhere... so far.. I agree with les Mason who whilst not agreeing the changes were great did say that we had some effect... and we did it in a short time... we now have time to take breath and make our numbers bigger... that to me is our first goal.

Peter

Peter
You're the only one alienating sections of the community. You're diatribe against unions is offensive to many. You may not be a unionist but so what, others may be.
Try and keep a sense of perspective.

[MSTRS]

I don't think we will get Joe onside so to speak as a banner waving supporter of bikes and scooters...

Of course we won't. But what we do want is to be the catalyst that gets them off their collective arses ON THEIR OWN BEHALF, and we provide the medium for them to stage their own protest alongside us.

[drummer]

Where did anyone say that? The public are not and never will be the target. Collateral damage, maybe. Obviously, it is unfortunate, but unavoidable IF protests move to a more 'earthy' militant style.
It is all about making those pricks in National take note....
There are many ways of making that happen. Yours is just as valid as 'rioting' in the streets.If you disrupt traffic, "shut down cities" etc.. you are like the truckies did inadvertantly declaring ar on the public

Rioting in the streets... remember the Queen Street Riots...

Peter

[MSTRS]

If you disrupt traffic, "shut down cities" etc.. you are like the truckies did inadvertantly declaring ar on the public

Rioting in the streets... remember the Queen Street Riots...

Peter

I'm not condoning those actions...but some are, and they do have a point. Look what happens in France...I know we're not France, but militant disruptive actions DO get results.
As far as 'rioting' goes...is that not what JK said we were doing?

[James Deuce]

One wonders who is working for whom "from the inside".

[drummer]

I'm not condoning those actions...but some are, and they do have a point. Look what happens in France...I know we're not France, but militant disruptive actions DO get results.
As far as 'rioting' goes...is that not what JK said we were doing?If he did then I would be surprised if it were not an over zealous staffers remarks... I don't know about that.. but you and I know they eren't riots... yes sometimes those actions get results but genrally only when supported in kind by a large percntile of the public... currently we don't really have that... nor even a major portion of riders either... which as said should be our first prime focus...

Thanks

Peter

[mikeey01]

I totally agree what "they" are doing and have done before the Nats is bullshit... we always paid more under Labour too... I for one never saw that as fair... its not about for me at least one party or another... its about fundemental fairness and equity, leading to a policy change that embraces those things

Thanks

Peter

Then you will agree that pressure, be it extreme or not and in many and varied ways does work then!

The motorcycling community has spoken and continues to speak on this issue, but no one is listening, or even understanding, seems discussions have stopped and the shutters have gone up (brick walls as you put it) then the speak gets louder and louder, eventually giving way to a gloves off approach.

[MSTRS]

If he did then I would be surprised if it were not an over zealous staffers remarks...

Words from his own mouth in a telephone interview he had when overseas and just prior to him going to Copenhagen. Search...it's on here somewhere. In fact here it is (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129542988&postcount=1)

[GSL]

Its time to get real. Warm fuzzies so far have failed. No point in doing more of the same yet expecting a different result. I am surprised that the marshmellow protesters brains have not clicked into reallity yet. I support shutting down Wellington to get the strongest possible message accross.

[mikeey01]

If he did then I would be surprised if it were not an over zealous staffers remarks... I don't know about that.. but you and I know they eren't riots... yes sometimes those actions get results but genrally only when supported in kind by a large percntile of the public... currently we don't really have that... nor even a major portion of riders either... which as said should be our first prime focus...

Thanks

Peter

Hey fella, do not for one minute under-estimate what's coming..
If riots get results then so be it!

[drummer]

Then you will agree that pressure, be it extreme or not and in many and varied ways does work then!

The motorcycling community has spoken and continues to speak on this issue, but no one is listening, or even understanding, seems discussions have stopped and the shutters have gone up (brick walls as you put it) then the speak gets louder and louder, eventually giving way to a gloves off approach.
Pressure can work... however it needs to embrace some principles of the fight.. the public factor is the largest... not to get them against us...

The motorcycling community as such hasn't spoken.. just a percentage... thats one of my points and others have mentioned it too... too many riders have done nothing or worse don't even care or realise the necessity for a change of policy...

People are listening but theres not enough people talking... thats the problem... getting the majoirty offside as in the truckies blocade gets people talking against us... and we do not want the majoity against us. Why... because the majority (unfortunately) of NZ'ers don't ride or care about bikes and scooters.

Peter

[mikeey01]

Pressure in strategic places will work without getting anyone else off side.
I am talking legal here, when it comes to illegal then I'll have a re-think.

[drummer]

Its time to get real. Warm fuzzies so far have failed. No point in doing more of the same yet expecting a different result. I am surprised that the marshmellow protesters brains have not clicked into reallity yet. I support shutting down Wellington to get the strongest possible message accross.
Soft? Marshmellow? Give me a break mate! I am talking about a kind of war as well.. if you really want to call it that... but it aint a marshmellow soft approach in fact its caniving deceatful and underhanded... but... it will change policy and NOT cause the public to fight against us... good grief do you want the majority against us... up to know e have had them with us... Like has been said here the fight isn't over b ut the fight must now change... if you think for one tiny moment my ideas and past experience hasn't involved nasty tactics... you are wrong... but... they never get the majority offside... therein is the difference

Peter

[drummer]

Pressure in strategic places will work without getting anyone else off side.
I am talking legal here, when it comes to illegal then I'll have a re-think.
Agree with this... but pressure in strategic places means intelligence and planning not war against Wellington commuters as some have suggested

Peter

[Mom]

One wonders who is working for whom "from the inside".

I agree, would not trust him as far as I could flick him off the end of my limp penis.

[mikeey01]

Agree with this... but pressure in strategic places means intelligence

Intelligence, now your talking! It's a shame some lack it when making crazy policy decisions eh?

Strategic, sustained and hard pressure does work, history tells us so :)

Every man women and child in this country has now got a little less money to spend, the money wheel slows it's turning again.
I say to the NATS, keep going fellas this financial pressure your putting on the many who voted you in will back fire soon!

This country is paid for by the average joe's wages, taxes and levies. Isn't an elections coming real soon?

[drummer]

I agree, would not trust him as far as I could flick him off the end of my limp penis.
I don't give a dam what you both think.. I do know what I think and care about though......

Peter

[yungatart]

People are listening but theres not enough people talking... thats the problem... getting the majoirty offside as in the truckies blocade gets people talking against us... and we do not want the majoity against us. Why... because the majority (unfortunately) of NZ'ers don't ride or care about bikes and scooters.

Peter

Actually, Peter, I disagree...there are HEAPS of people talking. Everywhere I go, I talk to people about this issue, and I am not the only one. There are many of us.....

If you were out there talking to Joe Public, as much as you are banging your own drum in here, you too could make a difference.

As for the truckies getting on the wrong side of the public with their protests, where did you get that idea?
I was in Wgtn that day, using public transport as I had no vehicle, all I saw ws the public supporting them.

We don't need the public to be on our side or support us, what we need is for the public to realise that they too, are going to be shafted, then they will join with us!

PS...You know all those drummer jokes, are they really about you?

[Noidy]

It seems we have had a partial "victory" in the battle of high levies and now Joe public thinks its is over. To push the same agendas makes us look like sore winners. I don't believe it is about the money with the Govt. They are looking at a bigger picture. While we were all groaning about paying more the emissions trading scheme was rushed through. We were all too busy in our own little worlds not looking over the fence. If it was a smoke screen, it worked well. No one complained. (Just an example, dont want to change the topic). What else is going on while we are all side tracked?

IMO this battle is over but the war is not. We have to move to another front. Inform Joe Public that Dicks Myth wants to privatise ACC and it will affect them too. Lets make it personal to people who dont ride. Whose next? All of us

[bogan]

Soft? Marshmellow? Give me a break mate! I am talking about a kind of war as well.. if you really want to call it that... but it aint a marshmellow soft approach in fact its caniving deceatful and underhanded...

fuck any underhanded and deceitful approach, we're not trout, and were not fucking weasels either. At least if we shut down any cities It'll be honest, no fucking way am I stooping to S Myth's level.


It seems we have had a partial "victory" in the battle of high levies and now Joe public thinks its is over. To push the same agendas makes us look like sore winners. I don't believe it is about the money with the Govt. They are looking at a bigger picture. While we were all groaning about paying more the emissions trading scheme was rushed through. We were all too busy in our own little worlds not looking over the fence. If it was a smoke screen, it worked well. No one complained. (Just an example, dont want to change the topic). What else is going on while we are all side tracked?

IMO this battle is over but the war is not. We have to move to another front. Inform Joe Public that Dicks Myth wants to privatise ACC and it will affect them too. Lets make it personal to people who dont ride. Whose next? All of us

It was a draw at best, they always planned to ask for huge, then cut back to what they really want, but you're right we need to fight i on principal, rather than unaffordable levies, why are motorcyclists in a seperate account from cars? why do bikers pay by a risk factor when sports people dont directly contribute at all?

[CookMySock]

Perhaps you might get something done, but after reading that the original post I think you should start your own religion.

Steve

[short-circuit]

One wonders who is working for whom "from the inside".

Can't work out whether he's still recruiting for his beloved National Party or if he's simply responding to the voices "inside" his own head.

[Fatt Max]

Moley moley moley moley......

[candor]

Agenda what is the agenda. Equal fair treatment?

You have to make friends and set one or two, as right now the public thinks it's over - and there are way too many agendas going on here to get up steam - not helped by political parties manipulating here for their own mysterious ends.

The risk is there of the public getting really bored of protests - especially when the Govt has the power to issue regular installments about the latest bike crash (bike versus bike even today) and play up the stereotype.

Business plan? Goals?

My advice is to select the key propaganda that needs neutralising, and to select key messages GOING FORWARD with regular review as a strength of not being a big org is ability to exploit sudden opportunity. There are a range of approaches to counter BS but none will work if the public can be turned against bikes.

A couple of useful pages here as food for thought.
http://webserve.govst.edu/pa/Schema/counter-propaganda.htm

Wish I'd read the above link last week as I was a l8 ring in on a tv prog, there was a big propaganda set up session promoting something I'm against that they thought I like their original guest was for (alcohol limit drop). Interesting tho that I just stayed on my original message leaving the Police BS alone - "this is how much you can drink before driving" they said lining up a heap of drinks, cue shock/horror faces and ooohs and aahs from audience - quite compelling but it wasn't even true (unless you are a very fat man), so tho nauseated by the tactic I didn't get distracted and told the truth. That people drinking up to that level only cause under 1% of the toll... so shall we move right along to discuss real issues ...
Off duty cops gave me the thumbs up!!!

But had I read the above links first I may have done even better by exposing the money trail ie that revenue is the reason the cops are stacking drinks up and promoting wowsering when the cameras run.

Propaganda is powerful - there is pressure to conform and to believe authority, well maybe not here at KB but in general. The State propaganda machine will exploit this groups visible weaknesses and splits unless it gets organised again, if it doesn't then you aint seen nothing yet, other stronger attacks will come.

What to intensify and expose of omitted matters and how, what to play down and how? That is the mortal combat, winning on voice implanting. My 5c.

[James Deuce]

Best little piece of PR to play up is that "we" traded a levy increase for a reduction in the worker's levy increase proposal of 50% down to 15%.

[mikeey01]

Drummer, where r u?

[drummer]

Actually, Peter, I disagree...there are HEAPS of people talking. Everywhere I go, I talk to people about this issue, and I am not the only one. There are many of us..... I do this EVERY day but maybe to a different demographic.. trust me on this... last night at a student's band concert with parents.. today at church... tonight at the local...


If you were out there talking to Joe Public, as much as you are banging your own drum in here, you too could make a difference.

Bit arrogant really to say that.. you don't know what I am doing... the drum jokes are really funny too... The drum I am so called banging is one of inclusiveness not exclusiveness...


As for the truckies getting on the wrong side of the public with their protests, where did you get that idea?
I was in Wgtn that day, using public transport as I had no vehicle, all I saw ws the public supporting them.
Really? Well they don't have support around these parts.. like I said... demographics


We don't need the public to be on our side or support us, what we need is for the public to realise that they too, are going to be shafted, then they will join with us!Read what you said.. "DON'T NEED THE PUBLIC ON OUR SIDE... " then you ant them to join us.. I am confused... what I want is for them NOT to be offside!


PS...You know all those drummer jokes, are they really about you?What drummer jokes... I play guitar sing songwrite, produce and teach so.. um which will you pick on..

Peter

[carver]

scooters are gay

[drummer]

OK.. here's the go.. all of you who want open war and support public annoyance... I do not support you so stick to your threads about war and "shutting down cities".. stick to your hairy biker mentalities... whilst others like myself will try a little intelligence and thinking.. you do it your way and see what happens.. we'll do it our way.. and guess what... we both have the same objective I think.. mine is changing policy... because changing government is not going to promise us that we will have a different outcome.. that is a fact chaps and chapess's

Peter

[drummer]

scooters are gayApart from that amazing piece of literarcy I have never seen two scooters make love...

Peter

[bogan]

OK.. here's the go.. all of you who want open war and support public annoyance... I do not support you so stick to your threads about war and "shutting down cities".. stick to your hairy biker mentalities... whilst others like myself will try a little intelligence and thinking.. you do it your way and see what happens.. we'll do it our way.. and guess what... we both have the same objective I think.. mine is changing policy... because changing government is not going to promise us that we will have a different outcome.. that is a fact chaps and chapess's

Peter

what exactly is your way? dont do anything to get public off side, I get that, but what will you actually do?

[drummer]

what exactly is your way? dont do anything to get public off side, I get that, but what will you actually do?The first thing is to organise a structured programme that sees people in each electorate... especially every Nat electorate or Nat list MP area organised to put pressure on the weakest links within the Nat party. In particular I believe that a co-ordinated group pressuring and looking over the back of the MP's, the branch and area chairman and branches will work. To do this we need to embrace the concept of inclusivity... to talk with and recruit motorcyclists and scooter riders outside of our normal KB community which is (surprising to some here) a minority of bike riders. I know many bike and scooter riders... only one I know vaguely even knows about KB and is even interested in being on discussion groups.

However a lot of these people are politically minded and think very strong views about where the country was going under labour and many feel betrayed by some policies that the Nats have instigated. Lets not beat around the bush... the demographic of the people I mix with are 70 to 80% National supporters.. its a blue ribbon area here in eastern bays... they love JK... are they wrong ... no.. not from their point of view. However these same people aren't happy in general about ALL things National.. in other words there are a large number of riders who support National but not all their policies.. but they earn enough to not be too concerned... these people do like a good political fight though... and I believe that many if not most electorates contain people like this... some more than others obviously. Thats why e target Nat electorates first especially safe ones..

My conclusion is that we as KB members are missing a huge audience because of an apparent majoirty inherent hatred here of National.. I want to see POLICY change.. and the way I believe to do that is how I have described... attend public and as many party meetings as poss... for example the AGM's.. imagine for a moment if we could get a groundswell of Nat supporters telling their MP's they are making a mistake...

The facts surrounding bikes and scooters show the demographic changing.. many more proffessionals and younger scooterists... a lot of trendy cafe's now with scoots outside... many of these people need to be recruited as they are aready politically minded and ready to fire for us... IF we come across as intelligent. I don't think shutting down cities sounds intelligent to these people... not the ones I speak with..

So.. a game plan.. at first: One good strongminded intelligent person per electorate... a spokesman or woman so to speak... They learn who their local MP is... they learn the local reporters, local papers... pressure groups clubs etc. Then those people build their team around them... by recruiting a good team of strong individuals who don't hate National, Labour or whoever but HATE the road that ACC is going down if these unfair levies are allowed to continue. We then pressue the indivual MP's through meetings as mentioned... pressure the AGM's... even try taking over a branch if poss... there are some very small branches out there and it wouldn't be hard... If you think for one moment that I am trying to recruit for the Nats... that would be wrong.. I'm actually banned from the Nats... I am saying we need to try anything that infultrates the current government and puts pressure on them to change.. if Labour was in power I would say the same thing... I am not suggesting a massive signup for any party but perhaps a few LOUD voices within the very organisation that by a change in leglisation is hurting us will have an effect along with other tactics. To distance one's self from your so-called enemy is to reduce the chance of hitting them where it hurts...

Remember always..,. Goverments make change.. and that change comes from people power within the party concerned... we fundementally need to change their perception of what ACC should be about and maintain the original principles outlined by Woodhouse... Remember fear of losing poer is THE most potent weapon... and once your very own people on the ground turn... then a government is in real trouble... if you think it can't be done... study Aussie politics... especially Queensland!

So the first step.. and I hope organisations like Bronz will come aboard.. is to establish that one person per electorate..

Hope this explains a few things..

Peter

[NONONO]

Peter.
Sounds like you are in the best place to do this, not Bronz, Ulysses or KB.
Go for it, set it up and manage it. Whats to stop you?
Put your 5th column on the ground, you must have the contacts and know Nats, ex Nats and others who might understand. They don't have to be bikers.
What are you looking for from KB? You don't need a mandate from here.
Sorry I can't assist, I come out in a rash around the Nats. Would be a dead giveaway.

[MSTRS]

We don't need the public to be on our side or support us, what we need is for the public to realise that they too, are going to be shafted, then they will join with us!





Read what you said.. "DON'T NEED THE PUBLIC ON OUR SIDE... " then you ant them to join us.. I am confused... what I want is for them NOT to be offside!


Obviously plain English isn't clear enough?
The public may or may not agree that motorcyclists are being shafted. If they do agree that we are being shafted, then it can be said that they support us. Great, but it's not their fight, is it? Even with their support from the sidelines, we have a hard fight with little chance of success, because essentially we are a small number of people on our own. However, if we are smart, we will see to it that the public understand that they are being shafted too, then they will add their voices to ours ON THEIR OWN BEHALF. Because THEN they have a vested interest in seeing this situation rectified.

[bogan]

The first thing is to organise a structured programme that sees people in each electorate... especially every Nat electorate or Nat list MP area organised to put pressure on the weakest links within the Nat party. In particular I believe that a co-ordinated group pressuring and looking over the back of the MP's, the branch and area chairman and branches will work. To do this we need to embrace the concept of inclusivity... to talk with and recruit motorcyclists and scooter riders outside of our normal KB community which is (surprising to some here) a minority of bike riders. I know many bike and scooter riders... only one I know vaguely even knows about KB and is even interested in being on discussion groups.

However a lot of these people are politically minded and think very strong views about where the country was going under labour and many feel betrayed by some policies that the Nats have instigated. Lets not beat around the bush... the demographic of the people I mix with are 70 to 80% National supporters.. its a blue ribbon area here in eastern bays... they love JK... are they wrong ... no.. not from their point of view. However these same people aren't happy in general about ALL things National.. in other words there are a large number of riders who support National but not all their policies.. but they earn enough to not be too concerned... these people do like a good political fight though... and I believe that many if not most electorates contain people like this... some more than others obviously. Thats why e target Nat electorates first especially safe ones..

My conclusion is that we as KB members are missing a huge audience because of an apparent majoirty inherent hatred here of National.. I want to see POLICY change.. and the way I believe to do that is how I have described... attend public and as many party meetings as poss... for example the AGM's.. imagine for a moment if we could get a groundswell of Nat supporters telling their MP's they are making a mistake...

The facts surrounding bikes and scooters show the demographic changing.. many more proffessionals and younger scooterists... a lot of trendy cafe's now with scoots outside... many of these people need to be recruited as they are aready politically minded and ready to fire for us... IF we come across as intelligent. I don't think shutting down cities sounds intelligent to these people... not the ones I speak with..

So.. a game plan.. at first: One good strongminded intelligent person per electorate... a spokesman or woman so to speak... They learn who their local MP is... they learn the local reporters, local papers... pressure groups clubs etc. Then those people build their team around them... by recruiting a good team of strong individuals who don't hate National, Labour or whoever but HATE the road that ACC is going down if these unfair levies are allowed to continue. We then pressue the indivual MP's through meetings as mentioned... pressure the AGM's... even try taking over a branch if poss... there are some very small branches out there and it wouldn't be hard... If you think for one moment that I am trying to recruit for the Nats... that would be wrong.. I'm actually banned from the Nats... I am saying we need to try anything that infultrates the current government and puts pressure on them to change.. if Labour was in power I would say the same thing... I am not suggesting a massive signup for any party but perhaps a few LOUD voices within the very organisation that by a change in leglisation is hurting us will have an effect along with other tactics. To distance one's self from your so-called enemy is to reduce the chance of hitting them where it hurts...

Remember always..,. Goverments make change.. and that change comes from people power within the party concerned... we fundementally need to change their perception of what ACC should be about and maintain the original principles outlined by Woodhouse... Remember fear of losing poer is THE most potent weapon... and once your very own people on the ground turn... then a government is in real trouble... if you think it can't be done... study Aussie politics... especially Queensland!

So the first step.. and I hope organisations like Bronz will come aboard.. is to establish that one person per electorate..

Hope this explains a few things..

Peter

theres a lot of waffling going on in that post, try wrtiting just the main points down. for example

Form groups in each electorate to target national MPs
Inform all bikers of any plans
Try reasoning with MP's etc to change thier minds


And seriously, you think showing them reasons to back down on the ACC levy issue is going to work? they have blatantly and deliberately published misleading and false information to futhur their own agendas, what makes you think they will listen to reason? We must force them to change thier minds, by gathering public opinion for our cause, or by creating enough inconvenience to make them give in.

[drummer]

what exactly is your way? dont do anything to get public off side, I get that, but what will you actually do?The first thing is to organise a structured programme that sees people in each electorate... especially every Nat electorate or Nat list MP area orgaised to put pressure on the eakest links ithin the Nat party. In particular I believe that a co-ordinated group pressuring and looking over the back of the MP's, the branch and area chairman and branches will work. To do this e need to embrace the concept of inclusivity... to talk with and recruit motorcyclists and scooter riders outside of our normal KB community which is (surprising to some here) a minority of bike riders. I know many bike and scooter riders... only one I know vaguely even knows about KB and is even interested in being on discussion groups.

However a lot of these people are politically minded and think very strong views about where the country was going under labour and many feel betrayed by some policies that the Nats have instigated. Lets not beat around the bush... the demographic of the people I mix with are 70 to 80% National supporters.. its a blue ribbon area here in eastern bays... they love JK... are they wrong ... no.. not from their point of view. However these same people aren't happy in general about ALL things National.. in other words there are a large number of riders who support National but not all their policies..

My conclusion is that e as KB members are missing a huge audience because of an apparent inherent hatred here of National.. I want to see POLICY change.. and the way I believe to do that is how I have described... attend public and as many party meetings as poss... for example the AGM's.. imagine for a moment if e could get a groundswell of Nat supporters telling their MP's they are making a mistake...

The facts surrounding bikes and scooters show the demographic changing.. many more proffessionals and younger scooterists... a lot of trendy cafe's now ith scoots outside... many of these people need to be recruited as they are aready politically minded and ready to fire for us... IF e come across as intelligent.

So.. a game plan.. at first One good strongminded intelligent person per electorate... a spokesman or woman so to speak... They learn who their local MP is... they learn the local reporters, local papers... pressure groups clubs etc. Then those people build their team around them... by recruiting a good team of strong individuals who don't hate National, Labour or whoever but HATE the road that ACC is going down if these unfair levies are allowed to continue. We then pressue the indivual MP's through meetings as mentioned... pressure the AGM's... even try taking over a branch if poss... there are some very small branches out there and it wouldn't be hard... If you think for one moment that I am trying to recruit for the Nats... that would be wrong.. I'm banned from the Nats... I am saying e need to try anything that infultrates the current government and puts pressure on them to change.. if Labour was in power I would say the same thing... I am notr suggesting a massive signup for any party but perhaps a few LOUD voices within the very organisation that by a change in leglisation is hurting us will have an effect along ith other tactics. To distance one's self from your so-called enemy is to reduce the chance of hitting them where it hurts...

Remember always..,. Goverments make change.. and that change comes from people power within the party concerned... we fundementally need to change their perception of what ACC should be about and maintain the original principles outlined by Woodhouse... Remember fear of losing poer is THE most potent weapon... and once your very own people on the ground turn... then a government is in real trouble...

So the first step.. and I hope organisations like Bronz will come aboard.. is to establish that one person per electorate..

Hope this explains a few things..

Peter

[drummer]

to keep it in the top threads.. read it folks

[drummer]

Peter
You may not be a unionist but so what, others may be.
Try and keep a sense of perspective.Fair enuf.. I accept that

Peter

[sinfull]

. Nice bike !!!


to keep it in the top threads.. read it folks
Read what ? Your waffeling on about getting one person in each electorate ? Building a team around them ? Jeeeesus H Christ ! Are you using this campaign to try and gather momentum for a right wing split ? Or is that left wing ? Who cares ! I read one post where you said "trust me !" That was a gimme that fucka ! Your roots stood out big time there !!
Here's whats at the top of the threads !

[drummer]

Nice bike !!!


Read what ? Your waffeling on about getting one person in each electorate ? Building a team around them ? Jeeeesus H Christ ! Are you using this campaign to try and gather momentum for a right wing split ? Or is that left wing ? Who cares ! I read one post where you said "trust me !" That was a gimme that fucka ! Your roots stood out big time there !!
Here's whats at the top of the threads !In case u hadn't noticed.. I am bowing out of this... too much arguing, and its turning into a Nat bashing exercise that I believe is not only going to fail but also will alienate many many people... surprisingly to some here, not all bikers are on this forum.. I used to ask myself why.. it is potentually a great way to air your views... but sadly the ACC threads are turning into a giant slanging match..

So.. go right ahead... I'll let the rest of you argue amongst yourselves... and as far as ACC goes... well I'll protest in my own way...

Good luck and thanks to those who have chatted sensibly about it... but folks... its deveoping into a leftist action group... and I can't agree with that...

The quote "Trust me" referred to my knowledge of the Nats... and thats was that... taking it out of context further makes me distance myself.. I have a certain honour and belief system and it does not include making war...

One of my students... an 8 year old drummer... has a teeshirt... "War is for the weak" and this is so true..

Anyhow.. as said.. good luck... we could have done a lot more... but not the way its headed.. a few bikers arguing about politics will not change the mind of the people.. and thats what politics is about..

Peter

[shrub]

In case u hadn't noticed.. I am bowing out of this... too much arguing, and its turning into a Nat bashing exercise that I believe is not only going to fail but also will alienate many many people...
Peter

I think we need to look beyond lobbying National candidates because the next election is nearly 2 years away, and that is altogether too long. We need a professionally run interest group with professional lobbyists and PR people to lobby ALL politicians from all parties (especially the ones on our side), local government, police, transport, LTSA, ACC etc.