Roadcraft

[R6_kid]

After travelling to the Street Racing in Wanganui on boxing day in the car for the last two years I decided that I'd man up and take the bike this time. I ended up doing just shy of 1000km in 10hrs worth of riding spread over three days.

One thing that amazed me over this time was the number of riders on 'big' bikes that had to slow down significantly for a number of hardly challenging corners - the reason for this? They chose to enter the corner hugging the 'inside line'. For a left hander this is the left shoulder, for a right hander this would be the centre line. How hard is it to start wide and finish tight? Doing so allows more visibility, better safety and arguably a more enjoyable cornering experience.

All in all I don't think I was using more gas or accelerating harder than any riders that I ended up passing on my way to Wanganui and then on to Taupo - I was simply taking a smarter line into the corners and not having to adjust my speed for these corners as much. Compare this with a couple of riders on 250's (eatorbeeaten and her partner) who were quite happily trundling along at about 90kmh, taking the corners quite confidently and even having the courtesy to move over to the left when they saw a faster bike coming up from behind.

Another thing was a rider on a CBR1000RR who after slowly slipping away from me through some of the twisty parts along SH4 on the way North decided that it would be a good idea to cut me up at 180kmh+ as I was passing a well known motorcycle technician on a very long straight piece of road. Perhaps the fact that I was quite close to licence losing speed wasn't fast enough for him and he needed to regain some wank factor after being left behind by a fully laden bike with half the horsepower he had. In a situation like that he only had to wait another 4-5seconds and he would have had 5km to pass me, why he chose to do it when I was already passing another vehicle (car + trailer) on a two lane stretch of road is beyond me.

I guess I take some of the knowledge I hold for granted, but I still find myself somewhat bewildered by the fact that people on motorcycles capable of doing over 250kmh don't seem to have the skill or self control when it really counts.

[george formby]

Aw, man, you look through the same visor as me. I'm a firm believer in "making progress". It's not how fast I go but how I maintain an average speed, thats the fun of riding well - Roadcraft. I'm regularly amazed after being overtaken by riders travelling at high speed on the straights to end up being baulked by them at the next bit of fun, twistie road.
Maybe horses for courses, we have dragsters & scratchers & then we have those who just use their right hand to much.

[dipshit]

I always find it funny in here when people are ranting and raving and criticising the poor standards of car drivers on NZ roads... yet sooooooo many motorcyclists also have bad habits and road skills as well.

[george formby]

I always find it funny in here when people are ranting and raving and criticising the poor standards of car drivers on NZ roads... yet sooooooo many motorcyclists also have bad habits and road skills as well.

Yep, it's all traffic. I have a number of friends, drivers & riders who will happily nod their heads in sage agreement when we talk about behaviour on the roads, tut tutting & vouching their own abilities as being very good. Having accompanied them on rides & as a passenger In the car I know they are deluding themselves. Abilities are average to downright dangerous. The one thing all have in common is that they have no interest in getting any better, further education, geez, just reading an article in a magazine would be a start. Travelling obliviously for years. 2 wheels or 4 it's the nut behind the wheel...

[kiwifruit]

I can only hope to one day be as awesome as you, Gareth :yes: :not:

[MSTRS]

I always find it funny in here when people are ranting and raving and criticising the poor standards of car drivers on NZ roads... yet sooooooo many motorcyclists also have bad habits and road skills as well.

Hmmm....I'll assume you read the first post, but did you actually comprehend the words?

[PrincessBandit]

I don't really think taking corners a little more slowly is such an issue. Is it more that you are suggesting they could take them quicker by altering their line? If so, that surely is for them to decide. For example my son flicks our little ginny through corners following the left fairly closely; my only suggestion to him regarding that is that he obviously needs to be aware of potential obstacles on that line (as you have to with any you take). I prefer to take corners (especially the tighter left ones) a tad slower on my bandit as I prefer to know that I'm in control of my bike at a manageable speed rather than having to crank it hard over in order to exit where I want to go!
Unless someone is doing it dangerously, I don't see why you need to comment on their cornering if their speed in and out of them is they only thing puzzling you.

[dipshit]

Hmmm....I'll assume you read the first post, but did you actually comprehend the words?

Yes...??? I was agreeing with him. You would think from reading KB, that motorcyclist's shit doesn't stink. Nothing could be further from the truth.

There are a lot a poorly skilled motorcyclists around.

[PrincessBandit]

And as for the "bigger bike" issue of handling, I am happy opening mine up a bit on nice long stretches, but am obviously not so confident on tightish twisties (in fact I don't like them very much at all). Again, using my son as an example - Ripper Roo92 races through Twilight road (Clevedon way for Aucklanders) and has to wait for me while I lumber along behind at a whole 30kph average. Now that might be more to do with the fact that I've come off my bike and he has, to date, never come off his therefore I know what awaits me if I misjudge those corners. Yes I agree with you that it seems a bit incongruous that a rider who feels happy to warp past at 160+ can't handle corners with an equal amount of "skill" but just be happy with your own riding and pace and fuel consumption etc and let them worry about theirs. The only time I'd take huge exception to what I've said is if they are endangering others (not just holding them up temporarily) by poor road craft.

[dipshit]

I don't really think taking corners a little more slowly is such an issue. Is it more that you are suggesting they could take them quicker by altering their line?

It's not about the speed. One of the biggest killers on a bike is failing to take a corner and running wide into a ditch or oncoming traffic. Apexing too early will increase the chances of running wide. (and that is applicable to whatever speed you ride at)

[MSTRS]

I don't really think taking corners a little more slowly is such an issue. Is it more that you are suggesting they could take them quicker by altering their line? If so, that surely is for them to decide.
Cornering lines have a huge part to play in (potential) safe cornering speed. The fact that those Gareth came across were taking a tight line at corner entry means that those riders were creating a problem for themselves and an irritation for anyone behind.

Yes...??? I was agreeing with him. You would think from reading KB, that motorcyclist's shit doesn't stink. Nothing could be further from the truth.

There are a lot a poorly skilled motorcyclists around.
Yes...I just wondered why you felt the need to bring up poor cager skills in this thread.

[Pussy]

It's not about the speed. One of the biggest killers on a bike is failing to take a corner and running wide into a ditch or oncoming traffic. Apexing too early will increase the chances of running wide. (and that is applicable to whatever speed you ride at)


Cornering lines have a huge part to play in (potential) safe cornering speed. The fact that those Gareth came across were taking a tight line at corner entry means that those riders were creating a problem for themselves and an irritation for anyone behind.



You two are right on the money! :niceone:

[PrincessBandit]

Cornering lines have a huge part to play in (potential) safe cornering speed. The fact that those Gareth came across were taking a tight line at corner entry means that those riders were creating a problem for themselves and an irritation for anyone behind.

I agree with what you are saying, but surely if you are "irritated" by someone you are following you patiently await your opportunity to pass and leave them behind. If it's someone you are "riding with" as part of your group then reorganise the riding order so that you can go on ahead and wait for them to catch up. I don't know what a rider's speed through a corner has to do with it if their line is "acceptable". Surely you are not insisting that even if their line is good they have to speed up for you?

[Pussy]

I agree with what you are saying, but surely if you are "irritated" by someone you are following you patiently await your opportunity to pass and leave them behind. If it's someone you are "riding with" as part of your group then reorganise the riding order so that you can go on ahead and wait for them to catch up. I don't know what a rider's speed through a corner has to do with it if their line is "acceptable". Surely you are not insisting that even if their line is good they have to speed up for you?

I don't think MSTRS, dipshit or R6Kid are suggesting that for a moment, PB.
They are making an observation that there are some who have absolutely NO BLOODY IDEA on line taking

[dipshit]

Yes...I just wondered why you felt the need to bring up poor cager skills in this thread.

Because contrary to widespread opinion in KB land... better training for motorcyclists - not car drivers - would help reduce motorcycle accidents.

[PrincessBandit]

I don't think MSTRS, dipshit or R6Kid are suggesting that for a moment, PB.
They are making an observation that there are some who have absolutely NO BLOODY IDEA on line taking

Oh, my bad then. As you were!

[sosman]

I don't think MSTRS, dipshit or R6Kid are suggesting that for a moment, PB.
They are making an observation that there are some who have absolutely NO BLOODY IDEA on line taking

Yep what he said!

[awayatc]

I agree with what you are saying, but surely if you are "irritated" by someone you are following you patiently await your opportunity to pass and leave them behind. If it's someone you are "riding with" as part of your group then reorganise the riding order so that you can go on ahead and wait for them to catch up. I don't know what a rider's speed through a corner has to do with it if their line is "acceptable". Surely you are not insisting that even if their line is good they have to speed up for you?

I don't think you get it................
taking a wrong line is dangerous and shows lack of skill.
A biker forum like this is the ideal place to bring this dangerous practice to attention off those riders that are not aware off these basic roadcrafts.
Overshooting a corner because you take the wrong line will not only get the biker one day in serious trouble, it also put oncoming and following roadusers at risk........
It is just bad practice, and definitely needs pointing out

[MSTRS]

I don't think MSTRS, dipshit or R6Kid are suggesting that for a moment, PB.
They are making an observation that there are some who have absolutely NO BLOODY IDEA on line takingThat's it, in one.
However, they may be just as 'slow' in the corners if their lines were correct(read as 'better'). Not every rider wants to take corners at the same speed as they do on the straighter bits. Their choice, although just as irritating for those behind who like to employ The Pace as a style. Up to them to pass when safe. The problem that often occurs here is the same as that of cagers who like to drive at 60/70/80 when it's a bit windy and difficult to see for passing, yet get to passing lanes and instantly the speed jumps to 110+. Bastards.


Because contrary to widespread opinion in KB land... better training for motorcyclists - not car drivers - would help reduce motorcycle accidents.
Better training, fullstop. Apart from our likelihood of injury, why show 'we' take responsibility for the shortcomings of cagers?

[dipshit]

I don't know what a rider's speed through a corner has to do with it if their line is "acceptable".

It's only because when taking a bad line - you have to go much slower to avoid running off the road. If I was going to get on the back of a bike with someone else... I would feel much safer being on the back with someone taking better lines, even if cornering faster, than someone taking bad lines a bit slower.

Motorcycle training in Britain seems to be big on reading a corner and lines. I think their narrow roads leave very little margin for error on this.

e.g... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tS3bROWjE0

[Ferkletastic]

As part of the 250 crew cheers. It was interesting the variance in biker behavior and skill we saw, the oddest being guys blasting through twisty sections cutting every corner (blind or not), so as to keep the licence losing speed up. Looked like a case of "gotta show the boys I can handle" syndrome spiralling outta control to the detriment of what I deem actual riding skill (the roadcraft you mentioned). It's the kiwi idea that speed == skill/bigger balls.

Eatorbeeaten and I had an awesome ride on the baby bikes.

[yungatart]

I agree with what you are saying, but surely if you are "irritated" by someone you are following you patiently await your opportunity to pass and leave them behind. If it's someone you are "riding with" as part of your group then reorganise the riding order so that you can go on ahead and wait for them to catch up. I don't know what a rider's speed through a corner has to do with it if their line is "acceptable". Surely you are not insisting that even if their line is good they have to speed up for you?

Trust me, Mstrs is VERY patient when following someone who carries much lower corner speed than he. But, he is a firm believer in 'better' cornering lines, from a safety point of view ie. better lines allow better vision, better vision allows better reaction times...and therefore can allow a rider to safely lift their entry speed..doesn't mean that he is adamant everyone has to ride at the same speed he does, tho.
He has doddled through many corners patiently riding behind me at my speed, when he could have safely doubled it or even more.

[PrincessBandit]

Yes, fine. I get what you are all saying. However MY point is if your lines through corners are not dumb ones i.e. you are actually tracking "good" lines does that mean you HAVE to ride through them faster? Obviously the answer to that is no. It just seems as though some of you are pushing the 'faster through the corners' thing as an automatic follow through of sighting and following the line.
As for cars who travelling at annoyingly slow pace then speed up on the overtaking lanes, they most definitely are a pain in the arse, no argument there. I just feel that as a generally slower rider myself I feel quite justified in taking corners at whatever speed I feel is safest FOR ME. If I'm cornering poorly then that is my responsibility to look at improving that, and who knows some of those riders might be making an effort to do just that. But these things take time and practice.

[PrincessBandit]

...... The problem that often occurs here is the same as that of cagers who like to drive at 60/70/80 when it's a bit windy and difficult to see for passing, yet get to passing lanes and instantly the speed jumps to 110+. Bastards.

Better training, fullstop. Apart from our likelihood of injury, why show 'we' take responsibility for the shortcomings of cagers?

I think it is more a reflection on NZers generally poor road skills full stop - i.e. giving the impression that we're the only one who counts on the road (regardless of mode of transport), our agenda is so much more important and urgent than anyone else we're sharing the road with, and ego ego ego...

[R6_kid]

It's only because when taking a bad line - you have to go much slower to avoid running off the road. If I was going to get on the back of a bike with someone else... I would feel much safer being on the back with someone taking better lines, even if cornering faster, than someone taking bad lines a bit slower.

Motorcycle training in Britain seems to be big on reading a corner and lines. I think their narrow roads leave very little margin for error on this.

Especially on a road like SH4 where it is known to have frequent rock falls and large trucks/retarded drivers using more than their lane. Taking the correct line allows you to see further through the corner, be seen earlier (and see obstacles earlier) and means that you can take the corner safer and potentially at a higher speed. It also adds to the enjoyment of riding as you end up being smoother so you don't get at tired.

I'm not saying I'm awesome, or the best road rider out there, but people who have larger bikes should be experienced enough to know how to ride them properly and be able to take the correct line through a corner. The speed part is irrelevant I guess, but I was just making a point that I was making better progress, more safely than those who were taking 'stupid' lines.


As part of the 250 crew cheers. It was interesting the variance in biker behavior and skill we saw, the oddest being guys blasting through twisty sections cutting every corner (blind or not), so as to keep the licence losing speed up. Looked like a case of "gotta show the boys I can handle" syndrome spiralling outta control to the detriment of what I deem actual riding skill (the roadcraft you mentioned). It's the kiwi idea that speed == skill/bigger balls.

Eatorbeeaten and I had an awesome ride on the baby bikes.

There was one guy who was in a group I caught up to that had a habit of riding extremely close to the rider in front. When I ended up in front of him it seemed the only way he held on to me was by cutting corners and late braking then running a little wide while being about 1m from my rear tyre. I let him go past and he ended up being about 500m in front of me after 20km. I could never justify the extra risks he was taking in order to arrive at the destination a half a minute earlier. Keeping your ego in control while riding - especially with people you don't know is right up there with the ability to take the correct line through a corner in terms of importance when riding any bike.

[george formby]

And as for the "bigger bike" issue of handling, I am happy opening mine up a bit on nice long stretches, but am obviously not so confident on tightish twisties (in fact I don't like them very much at all). Again, using my son as an example - Ripper Roo92 races through Twilight road (Clevedon way for Aucklanders) and has to wait for me while I lumber along behind at a whole 30kph average. Now that might be more to do with the fact that I've come off my bike and he has, to date, never come off his therefore I know what awaits me if I misjudge those corners. Yes I agree with you that it seems a bit incongruous that a rider who feels happy to warp past at 160+ can't handle corners with an equal amount of "skill" but just be happy with your own riding and pace and fuel consumption etc and let them worry about theirs. The only time I'd take huge exception to what I've said is if they are endangering others (not just holding them up temporarily) by poor road craft.

Whichever way I go from home is ultimately twistie, I don't give two hoots about being overtaken, I make a point of allowing faster riders past safely but I can honestly say I have never had this courtesy returned when I have caught bikes up again in the corners. The opposite is to often true, they see my catching them as a challenge to try harder which is at times terrifying. When the sparks start to fly I pullover. I'm not a fast rider but I do know a safe, quick line through a corner when I see one.

[george formby]

I don't think you get it................
taking a wrong line is dangerous and shows lack of skill.
A biker forum like this is the ideal place to bring this dangerous practice to attention off those riders that are not aware off these basic roadcrafts.
Overshooting a corner because you take the wrong line will not only get the biker one day in serious trouble, it also put oncoming and following roadusers at risk........
It is just bad practice, and definitely needs pointing out

Yup, it's fundamental. Princess Bandit has a point though, cornering comes down to knowledge & confidence, lack of confidence will always make corners a bit tentative. I have followed riders on cruisers & the commitment they have shown cornering has left me very impressed. I would not dream of stuffing a 300kg bike through corners like some of these guys. Lack of confidence on my part waiting for the graunch wobble.

[rideon]

Cornering lines, for say a 55 kph corner, would not all nessecarily be the same IMO. At 120-130 k's you would start wide, apex late & exit wide because you need to, to get around it. At 80 K's there is no real need to take that line at all cos you can just follow the line of the corner, safely & get around it. I do think however it is a good habit to learn to think & ride good lines so that one day when a corner suddenly tightens on you , you are positioned well on the road to deal with it. The joy of motorcycling is cornering IMO & is the place where a lot of bins occur. When ACC front up with their 3 Mil for rider development maybe we will be able to get a few more upskilled in the art of cornering.

[Mikkel]

I'm not saying I'm awesome, or the best road rider out there, but people who have larger bikes should be experienced enough to know how to ride them properly and be able to take the correct line through a corner. The speed part is irrelevant I guess, but I was just making a point that I was making better progress, more safely than those who were taking 'stupid' lines.

While I mostly agree with you, what I have highlighted above I do not - at least not the way it is worded.

I'd go so far as to say that anyone with a license to operate any vehicle should be able to operate it competently. By competently I mean safely and efficiently - inconsiderately holding up other motorists is not efficient. Alas, casual evidence collected until this date suggests this is not the case for a significant proportion or motorists.
Also, remember it is just as easy to wrap yourself around a tree on a 250 ccm as it is on a 1000 ccm and you don't have to be going over 250 km/h for that to hurt at lot.

But I must admit I cry a little on the inside when I get stuck behind something like a 911 turbo or an RS4 being driven like a nana. If it's an old banger I just get irritated. But hell, if you bought it you can use it whichever way you want. Mind, buying a performance vehicle for any other reason than the performance is rather silly... :no:

[The Stranger]

I don't really think taking corners a little more slowly is such an issue. Is it more that you are suggesting they could take them quicker by altering their line?

Unless someone is doing it dangerously, I don't see why you need to comment on their cornering if their speed in and out of them is they only thing puzzling you.

Speed aside, it is safer (in general) for several reasons to enter from the outside of the corner anyway.
So whilst they may not be "doing it dangerously", why not, for no additional effort do it safer?

[wysper]

I just feel that as a generally slower rider myself I feel quite justified in taking corners at whatever speed I feel is safest FOR ME. If I'm cornering poorly then that is my responsibility to look at improving that, and who knows some of those riders might be making an effort to do just that. But these things take time and practice.

I ride slow too, but the point I am getting out of this thread is that regardless of speed, why not take a "good" line through the corner? Rather than just any line that will get you round the bend. And as for it being your (and I don't just mean you PB, I mean the rider) responsibility to improve - it is quite possible that the rider concerned is not aware there IS a better line through the corners.

[vifferman]

I always find it funny in here when people are ranting and raving and criticising the poor standards of car drivers on NZ roads... yet sooooooo many motorcyclists also have bad habits and road skills as well.
Logically, you'd expect the same percentage of bike riders to have poor skills as car drivers.
At least until they were weeded out of the gene pool....

Maybe too many of those crap bike riders are also crap drivers.

[Firefight]

[QUOTE=R6_kid;11

I'm not saying I'm awesome,



thank god for that.


F/F