Rear view camera?

[bogan]

Starting design on a project to replace both the instrument cluster, and rear view mirrors on my bros with a custom set of gauges surrounding a screen hooked up to a camera near the number plate. Would change from the cog and cable type speedo/odo to a digital one with trip computer, but maintain the analogue needle gauge look, do same for rev counter. Program in a fuel light to work in conjunction with the trip computer and perhaps some other fancy bits. Would make it waterproof, and fucking hard to steal!

Looked on the ltsa site and it meets all the regulation except being a mirror, ie the mirror must offer a good veiw of the ..... assuming they just mean mirror as in device that looks to rear I'll be able to take off my mirrors making the bike look much nicer.

Idea is to design all the bits so they can be easily moved around to different configurations to be put in any type of bike and offer exactly the same functionality. Would anyone here be interested in such a product? if so what sort of price range?

[CookMySock]

camera near the number plate.It'll get goo all over it. And whats behind be isn't going to be for very long.

Steve

[bogan]

It'll get goo all over it. And whats behind be isn't going to be for very long.

Steve

yeh may have to make up a clear plastic cover for it, and put it out of most of the goo range. I know the hyosungs get overtaken very quickly :bleh:, but its a streaming vid camera, so itll show whatever is behind you, no matter how long that may be!

[Rev DJ]

I have a rear camera set-up on my Duc. Works really well and is needed as the mirrors are next to useless! I used a small LCD screen and a Sony 560 camera - brilliant! DJ

[one fast tl1ooo]

It'll get goo all over it. And whats behind be isn't going to be for very long.

Steve

It wont be goo, It will be oil and bit of ya bike.:rofl: But you are rite what is behind you wont be there for long.. :lol: as it will pass you real fast :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[NZsarge]

No reason I can see why this won't work, well in theory at least, be interesting to check it out once you're done.

[bogan]

I have a rear camera set-up on my Duc. Works really well and is needed as the mirrors are next to useless! I used a small LCD screen and a Sony 560 camera - brilliant! DJ

you ever tried getting a WOF with the mirrors taken off then? Can you remember what model screen it is? as getting one that works well in sunlight may be an issue.

[magicmonkey]

I'd be concerned about the resolution on the screen and image quality from the camera with something like this. If either of them are crappy then the project wouldn't work and a good quality camera/screen could cost one hell of a lot!

[george formby]

Might be better than mirrors at night but I have scant faith in electrotrickery & would be paranoid that it would conk out. I don't like electric windows in cars even, after a 60 mile drive in snow with the drivers window stuck open. I would like to see you get it done though. The future beckons.

[quickbuck]

You have missed out the option "What is behinda me doesa not matta"....

Resolution may well be a problem... but then your mirrors are useless when the sun is directly behind you, and low enough too....

Sounds inovative enough... Then just neet to make it all HUD in your helmet... Actually, no. There are times when I really don't care about what is on the dash... I just want to ride the road.

[p.dath]

Might be slightly interested in an infared camera to see further at night time; but to be honest, I like to have the instrument cluster already on my bike. It's simple. It works.

Mirrors don't tend to break down. They don't need power. They can fog up (are you going to put the camera and LCD display into special environmental enclosures to precent them fogging up)?

I think you have have come up with a solution to a problem that does not exist.

[bogan]

Might be slightly interested in an infared camera to see further at night time; but to be honest, I like to have the instrument cluster already on my bike. It's simple. It works.

Mirrors don't tend to break down. They don't need power. They can fog up (are you going to put the camera and LCD display into special environmental enclosures to precent them fogging up)?

I think you have have come up with a solution to a problem that does not exist.

ah, sorry, I should have explained that Im an engineer, half of what we do is come up with solutions to problems that dont exist! But i do have issues with the mirrors atm, the focus on my shoulders as much as the road, they are quite far out of they way to do quick head check (instrument cluster is a lot easier), and i think it'd look better if i was able to get rid of the mirrors.

Good point about the fogging, will put some though into that.

Been googling for suitable screens, pretty tricky finding a suitable one, I just want one bout 7", with just an AV input plug, no gps, no dvd player, no tv aerial, good res. Would have though there would be quite a few out there.

[magicmonkey]

Been googling for suitable screens, pretty tricky finding a suitable one, I just want one bout 7", with just an AV input plug, no gps, no dvd player, no tv aerial, good res. Would have though there would be quite a few out there.

surely you'd need at least an EEPROM to decode the signal from the camera and turn it into something watchable? You could probably use the existing chips in a bog standard GPS unit, maybe even find a slightly larger screen and have GPS at the bottom and mirror at the top...

[banditrider]

http://www.4kam.com/bikeeye_wireless_rear_view_camera.htm

[CookMySock]

surely you'd need at least an EEPROM to decode the signal from the camera and turn it into something watchable?Hi tech!!! :blink:


You have missed out the option "What is behinda me doesa not matta"....Yeh. It only matters when its going to sandwich you with what is in front, and even that is about to get overtaken!

Steve

[bogan]

http://www.4kam.com/bikeeye_wireless_rear_view_camera.htm

whats up with that bike on the main page, some fat fuck sit on his fuel tank?! also unsure why the wireless is needed as it wouldnt even be 2m of cable.

Realised i need to go down to bout a 5in screen now, might just get a big huckory one and try and modify its case and whatever else is inside if I cant find anything better.

[rwh]

How about this kind of thing?

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8335

Not your simple video input, but possibly easier to interface the digital stuff to?

Richard

[bogan]

trying to avoid any fancy digital stuff at this stage, don't wanna deal with screen driver chips/circuits

[p.dath]

ah, sorry, I should have explained that Im an engineer, half of what we do is come up with solutions to problems that dont exist! But i do have issues with the mirrors atm, the focus on my shoulders as much as the road, they are quite far out of they way to do quick head check (instrument cluster is a lot easier), and i think it'd look better if i was able to get rid of the mirrors.

Why stop at an LCD display? How about a heads up display. Create a pinlock visor that you can clip onto the existing visor (or even replace the existing visor - if you can solve the fogging issue). Then you don't even have to take your eye off where you want to ride.
Of course, it might cost as much as the bike itself.

I'm not familiar with your bike. I'd say on my bike the instrument cluster and the mirrors are equi-distant. I have to move my eyes about the same amount.

How about inventing something tricky, like a "mirror" fed by a fibre optic tube or something, i.e. A mirror that can see around corners without having to be inline. Then you could mount the mirror more centrally, yet "plumb" the optical input from a further out point on the bike.

But considering all this, handling blind spots would still be tricky.

I think you'd be best by coming up with a better mounting position for your mirrors on your bike ...

[jeffs]

Rear view Camera



How did you get on with a water proof mount. Did you design or buy something ?
Also what about security, ie stopping people steeling it when parked ( thinking its a GPS ) ?

I have just fitted a rear cam to my bike and am trialing getting on without mirrors.
My standard mirrors are rubbish because im big, so I moved to bar ends quite sometime ago.
Unfortunately they make the bike wider while commuting in stopped traffic. So I am trying a cam. The angle of view is great, and as for blind spots, I turn my head, just like I do with mirrors ( before anyone raises that one ) . I actually find that I am more alert, because i'm more forward facing, not constantly bobbing my head left and right checking my mirrors.

[jonbuoy]

Even standard black and white cameras are better at night than your eyes as they partly show IR, CCTV ones might be best - good ones have protection from "whiteout" blinding from bright light sources like car headlamps. Great idea, might get a bit distracting though.

[bogan]

How did you get on with a water proof mount. Did you design or buy something ?
Also what about security, ie stopping people steeling it when parked ( thinking its a GPS ) ?

I haven't started the project yet, was unable to find a screen that I liked, then decided to do a front end swap on my bike so will have another investigate when I do that



I have just fitted a rear cam to my bike and am trialing getting on without mirrors.
My standard mirrors are rubbish because im big, so I moved to bar ends quite sometime ago.
Unfortunately they make the bike wider while commuting in stopped traffic. So I am trying a cam. The angle of view is great, and as for blind spots, I turn my head, just like I do with mirrors ( before anyone raises that one ) . I actually find that I am more alert, because i'm more forward facing, not constantly bobbing my head left and right checking my mirrors.

Nice, thats exactly the reasons for what i was doing, and the results I would want too! what screen/camera and how well do you reckon it works?

[jeffs]

I haven't started the project yet, was unable to find a screen that I liked, then decided to do a front end swap on my bike so will have another investigate when I do that



Nice, thats exactly the reasons for what i was doing, and the results I would want too! what screen/camera and how well do you reckon it works?

Shame you have not started :)

To test this out I bought a cheapish wired reversion cam / screen ( less interference ) for $200 from Repco ( on special down from $300 ).

At this time it is an a water tight clear bag ( because im just trialing now ). I will make a bracket with a small sun cowel, as it great after 10am but with the low sun before it is not 100% only 85%, and it needs to be. As for night, no-problems, just turn down the display brightness ( yes down ) and its great.

The thing to get used to is that things seem further away, but that is just a mind adjustment thing. Just like it says on wide angled mirrors " objects may appear further away" so no difference to wide angle mirrors really :)

But going through traffic, its great so far. My hands are my outer limits, so no more clipping mirrors.

My disclaimer here is for KB. I do not care if others think this is an over kill or the 100 other reasons people think this is a bad idea. I am doing this for me not you. ( there the KB disclaimer over ).

[bogan]

Shame you have not started :)

To test this out I bought a cheapish wired reversion cam / screen ( less interference ) for $200 from Repco ( on special down from $300 ).

At this time it is an a water tight clear bag ( because im just trialing now ). I will make a bracket with a small sun cowel, as it great after 10am but with the low sun before it is not 100% only 85%, and it needs to be. As for night, no-problems, just turn down the display brightness ( yes down ) and its great.

The thing to get used to is that things seem further away, but that is just a mind adjustment thing. Just like it says on wide angled mirrors " objects may appear further away" so no difference to wide angle mirrors really :)

But going through traffic, its great so far. My hands are my outer limits, so no more clipping mirrors.

My disclaimer here is for KB. I do not care if others think this is an over kill or the 100 other reasons people think this is a bad idea. I am doing this for me not you. ( there the KB disclaimer over ).

yeh, too many projects, too little time! Though this would be a relatively quick project if I found a good screen.

Do you have screen/camera specs? Would be interested as to how much res is good, and display types for bright enough during day riding.

[jeffs]

When I get home I'll pull out the manual, but don't over engineer this. The screen and resolution it uses are good enough.
It does not need to be Hi-def or it will just get stolen.
This is my main concern, how do I fix it so people do not think its a GPS and steal it. And making it detachable is not the way to go, or you can not just jump on you bike without
more fiddling around.

As for day time brightness again this is fixable with a cowl so not as important as you may think. ( the one i'm testing is ok ).

If you live in Auckland you can see it for yourself.

[Headbanger]

Im interested in this, My mirrors are useless, all I can see is my elbows, and I have to twist my body,lean over one side with my torso,lean over the otherside with my upper body,suck my elbow into my side, and try and crane my neck over to look into the mirror.

Its a giant fuckup.

[bogan]

When I get home I'll pull out the manual, but don't over engineer this. The screen and resolution it uses are good enough.
It does not need to be Hi-def or it will just get stolen.
This is my main concern, how do I fix it so people do not think its a GPS and steal it. And making it detachable is not the way to go, or you can not just jump on you bike without
more fiddling around.

As for day time brightness again this is fixable with a cowl so not as important as you may think. ( the one i'm testing is ok ).

If you live in Auckland you can see it for yourself.

My plan was to remove the instrument cluster, and put a bit of perspex over it, possibly get a polarising filter to remove glare if that'd work, change dials for digital display or more linear needles to save space, so no fucker would be stealing that! Some sort of self adptive brightness sounds like the way to go, LDRs are pretty cheap and you may be able to just swap out the brightness pot with one. In manawatu so bit far to come and look, but once i decide on a screen and camera I can set em up in various positions and test out before making a proper enclosure, like what you are doing.

[jeffs]

Headbanger be aware I have yet to get confirmation that this is legal, so before you go out and spend money keep this in mind. That aside, bar ends do a great job for rear vision when you don't like the look of your elbows, so start with that first. Switching to camera is a big mind jump not just in the hardware, but the mindset of stopping checking mirrors that are no longer there :)

Having said that, I like the speed triple so if you want to swap i'll through in the camera.. Ha ha ha

[bogan]

Im interested in this, My mirrors are useless, all I can see is my elbows, and I have to twist my body,lean over one side with my torso,lean over the otherside with my upper body,suck my elbow into my side, and try and crane my neck over to look into the mirror.

Its a giant fuckup.

yeh, for wide shouldered people to get any sort of vision bar end mirrors are almost a nessesity, which may the bike way wider, so screen is way to go I reckon.


Headbanger be aware I have yet to get confirmation that this is legal, so before you go out and spend money keep this in mind. That aside, bar ends do a great job for rear vision when you don't like the look of your elbows, so start with that first. Switching to camera is a big mind jump not just in the hardware, but the mindset of stopping checking mirrors that are no longer there :)

Having said that, I like the speed triple so if you want to swap i'll through in the camera.. Ha ha ha

I found the relevant legislation (on home comp) but it basically says the mirror must do blah blah... which a screen and camera check all the boxes except the fact they are not a mirror.... so bit hazy whether they mean mirror as in view device, or mirror as in bit of shiny glass.

[Conquiztador]

I found the relevant legislation (on home comp) but it basically says the mirror must do blah blah... which a screen and camera check all the boxes except the fact they are not a mirror.... so bit hazy whether they mean mirror as in view device, or mirror as in bit of shiny glass.

You could always fit the screen where the mirrors are... ;)

[Conquiztador]

surely you'd need at least an EEPROM to decode the signal from the camera and turn it into something watchable? You could probably use the existing chips in a bog standard GPS unit, maybe even find a slightly larger screen and have GPS at the bottom and mirror at the top...

EEPROM (electrically erasable programmable read-only memory) will decode nothing. It is a chip that functions as a memory.

[jeffs]

Well here is the law and like all laws its about interpretation.

So here is my interpretation.

1. A motorbike is a class LC

2. LC's only require to conform to " general safety reqs"

3. The rules for "general safety reqs" that are/maybe applicable to a motorbike.

Rule 5.3
provide, so as to enable a motor vehicle to be operated safely, a clear view to the rear of, as applicable:

* (i) the motor vehicle itself;
* (b) be securely attached to the motor vehicle so as to minimise the risk of injury to the motor vehicle’s occupants, to pedestrians and to other road users in a crash involving the motor vehicle; and
* (c) be mounted on the motor vehicle in a position that will ensure the mirror is sufficiently isolated from vibrations to the extent possible for the class of motor vehicle, so as to enable the driver to have adequate vision as specified in 5.3(1)(a); and
* (d) be adjustable and able to maintain its adjusted position so as to allow the driver to use the rearview mirror as specified in 5.3(1)(a).

5.3(2) In assessing whether the general safety requirements in 5.3(1) are complied with, a person in section 7 may take into account evidence that the rear-view mirror is within the operating limits of the manufacturer of the motor vehicle or manufacturer of the rear-view mirror.

Conclusion:
So it all comes down to two words " as applicable" and one wooly line "The Inspector may take into account evidence that the rear-view mirror is within the operating limits of the manufacturer of the motor vehicle or manufacturer of the rear-view mirror."

And since they are now sold by Manufacturers the " is within the operating limits of the manufacturer of the rear-view mirror" bit is sorted.

http://www.4kamvu.com/bikeeye_wireless_rear_view_camera.htm

Or just say " no its a camera not a mirror"





The full set if you are bored....................


Land Transport Rule
Glazing, Windscreen Wipe and Wash, and Mirrors 1999 Rule 32012/1
================================================== ==

LC (Motorcycle) A motor vehicle that:

* (a) has two wheels; and
* (b) either:
o (i) has an engine cylinder capacity exceeding 50 ml; or
o (ii) has a maximum speed exceeding 50 km/h.

================================================== ==
5.1

LC, LD, LE1, LE2 Rear-view mirror that complies with general safety reqs

================================================== ==

5.3 General safety requirements

5.3(1) A rear-view mirror must:

* (a) provide, so as to enable a motor vehicle to be operated safely, a clear view to the rear of, as applicable:
o (i) the motor vehicle itself;
o (ii) the motor vehicle’s load;
o (iii) if towing a trailer, the trailer and its load; and
* (b) be securely attached to the motor vehicle so as to minimise the risk of injury to the motor vehicle’s occupants, to pedestrians and to other road users in a crash involving the motor vehicle; and
* (c) be mounted on the motor vehicle in a position that will ensure the mirror is sufficiently isolated from vibrations to the extent possible for the class of motor vehicle, so as to enable the driver to have adequate vision as specified in 5.3(1)(a); and
* (d) be adjustable and able to maintain its adjusted position so as to allow the driver to use the rearview mirror as specified in 5.3(1)(a).

5.3(2) In assessing whether the general safety requirements in 5.3(1) are complied with, a person in section 7 may take into account evidence that the rear-view mirror is within the operating limits of the manufacturer of the motor vehicle or manufacturer of the rear-view mirror.
================================================== ==

[bogan]

Conclusion:
So it all comes down to two words " as applicable" and one wooly line "The Inspector may take into account evidence that the rear-view mirror is within the operating limits of the manufacturer of the motor vehicle or manufacturer of the rear-view mirror."


yeh that was same as what I found. Did you find the specs on the bits you were using?

[jeffs]

The model is a Power Train 3.5inch Reversing Camera system Model: rvs-350 $200 from Repco.

Its not High spec, but As I said it works and is a trial.



screen 3.5 size
4:3
Auto pal-ntsc
12v


camera
1/4 inc Colour Cmos cam
Image device Colour 0v7950
512x492 pixels
resolution 420 lines
min lux 0.5
angle 170 deg

The more I use it the less I keep looking for mirrors that are not there.

So far it's great for getting through traffic, and that is what I was after.

[Conquiztador]

The model is a Power Train 3.5inch Reversing Camera system Model: rvs-350 $200 from Repco.

Its not High spec, but As I said it works and is a trial.

screen 3.5 size
4:3
Auto pal-ntsc
12v


camera
1/4 inc Colour Cmos cam
Image device Colour 0v7950
512x492 pixels
resolution 420 lines
min lux 0.5
angle 170 deg

The more I use it the less I keep looking for mirrors that are not there.

So far it's great for getting through traffic, and that is what I was after.


Any pictures of it fitted?

[tigertim20]

I dont think I would have it. to be honest, while mirrors on alot of bikes (sportsbikes especially) are useless, they do add something cosmetically to the overall shape and look af a bike. for that reason, I wouldnt do it

[jeffs]

I dont think I would have it. to be honest, while mirrors on alot of bikes (sportsbikes especially) are useless, they do add something cosmetically to the overall shape and look af a bike. for that reason, I wouldnt do it

I suppose a Tiger would look funny without ears :) But Telly Tubby's don't have ears they have a TV screen :)

God my Honda must be part Telly Tubby :(

[bogan]

The model is a Power Train 3.5inch Reversing Camera system Model: rvs-350 $200 from Repco.

Its not High spec, but As I said it works and is a trial.



screen 3.5 size
4:3
Auto pal-ntsc
12v


camera
1/4 inc Colour Cmos cam
Image device Colour 0v7950
512x492 pixels
resolution 420 lines
min lux 0.5
angle 170 deg

The more I use it the less I keep looking for mirrors that are not there.

So far it's great for getting through traffic, and that is what I was after.

Sound like pretty common enough specs, slightly under the 640x480 standard, but as near as makes no diff. I got one of them helmet/bar cams today, so will use play round with the res's on that and figure out what sorta distance you get for different res's I'm thinking too low and ojects at 100k speed may become too blurred...

[jeffs]

Sound like pretty common enough specs, slightly under the 640x480 standard, but as near as makes no diff. I got one of them helmet/bar cams today, so will use play round with the res's on that and figure out what sorta distance you get for different res's I'm thinking too low and ojects at 100k speed may become too blurred...

at 120 ( if I was too ride at those speeds officer :) ) and very
little diff to 50. yes a higher res would be good
but at what point does it become just too expencsive
to be economic.

[jeffs]

Well I talked to a LVV certifier today (the people who certify vehicle modifications ) his advise was very simple. The law is the law. Under the act and the added guidelines

http://www.lvvta.org.nz/stdRearViewMirrors.pdf there is one big out.

The law states that a bike must have one rear view mirror.

It does not stipulate size or type. So he advised that the fitting of a dental mirror facing to the rear fulfilled the laws requirement.

He advised fit a very small mirror to the bike on the RHS of center and when WOFing state that the Rearview cam is an addition to visibility.

This fits the laws requirement 100%, they will look only at the mirror, and the fact that it has one, and must not assess the rear view cam.

That is it !!!!

The mirror can be in a position that is useless to use a a real mirror, as long as it has "one" and it faces back and it is fitted securely you have met all obligations under the act.

He advised against having it LVV certified as spending $400 was a waste of time compared to the cost of a dental mirror.

[imdying]

Nice, bar end mirrors for a WOF, and then take your chances in service :yes:

[Headbanger]

I was in Supercheap the other day looking at their range of reversing cams, If I had a spare couple of hundred I would have crabbed one, the wireless unit looked interesting.

It wouldn't bother me if it lost detail at 120km'h, As long as I could see a car in my space then its job is done.

Its still high on my list of desired items.

[bogan]

Well I talked to a LVV certifier today (the people who certify vehicle modifications ) his advise was very simple. The law is the law. Under the act and the added guidelines

http://www.lvvta.org.nz/stdRearViewMirrors.pdf there is one big out.

The law states that a bike must have one rear view mirror.

It does not stipulate size or type. So he advised that the fitting of a dental mirror facing to the rear fulfilled the laws requirement.

He advised fit a very small mirror to the bike on the RHS of center and when WOFing state that the Rearview cam is an addition to visibility.

This fits the laws requirement 100%, they will look only at the mirror, and the fact that it has one, and must not assess the rear view cam.

That is it !!!!

The mirror can be in a position that is useless to use a a real mirror, as long as it has "one" and it faces back and it is fitted securely you have met all obligations under the act.

He advised against having it LVV certified as spending $400 was a waste of time compared to the cost of a dental mirror.

hmmm, thought it might have been something like that, what was the point of getting it lvv certed though? would that mean you don't have to run a little mirror?

[jeffs]

I was in Supercheap the other day looking at their range of reversing cams, If I had a spare couple of hundred I would have crabbed one, the wireless unit looked interesting.

It wouldn't bother me if it lost detail at 120km'h, As long as I could see a car in my space then its job is done.

Its still high on my list of desired items.

The prices are dropping, even a simple one off trademe can be picked up for Under $150 ( wireless ) or about $100 wired.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-stereos/DVD-video/auction-293571918.htm

The trick is making waterproof and theft proof.

Once my bracket is complete I will post photos on my finished setup.

[Headbanger]

Interesting, I might get one, Theft proof doesn't bother me, Bike is rarely out of my sight for more then....well....it just doesn't happen, I put it where I can see it.

[jeffs]

hmmm, thought it might have been something like that, what was the point of getting it lvv certed though? would that mean you don't have to run a little mirror?

I was finding out from the real experts what would be involved in making it 100% WOF legal. That is why I was talking to the LVV people.
If you talk to VTNZ or equiv, all you get is. "great idea but you have to have a mirror, talk to the LVV people. They know more about getting mods certified"

I think a mirror the size of a 2 dollar coin is a lot cheaper and a very acceptable compromise, than the LVV certification of $400.

And if someone does nick the LCD then I always have my dentist mirror backup :) Ha Ha Ha

Ok why am I doing this.

1. Standard mirrors give no visibility
2. Bar ends give great visibility, but make the bike wider.
3. Rear view cam, gives good rear view and bike is narrow.

I now have a CB1300 that can go through traffic gaps like a bicycle.

But to who ever plans on following this path.

When it rains, you will get water on the camera lens, and visibility will be compromised. To reduce this go to Jaycar and buy a dummy security camera dome lens.

Put it over the camera. When it rains the water falls on the dome not the camera lens and so does not blank out your rear view.

Mounting the camera under some form of overhang, can cause the camera to auto adjust and darkening of the picture feed.

[jeffs]

Sorry I forgot to say, the LVV guy says the mirror must have a rear view, it does not say the rear view has to happen while you are on the bike. Ie you can mount it anywhere to one side of the front of your bike, and when you get on the bike and your body blocks the rear view, that is ok, because it is not stipulated in the law that rear view while riding is required.

Ie that is why rear view bike mirrors should be renamed, Elbow view mirrors.

Go figure :)