A month ago I watched a riding buddy die on the side of the road

[shrub]

and it happened because he wasn't paying attention and then messed up his braking (on a new bike with insane brakes). I just read today about a Harley rider named Horse who got taken out by a tourist on the wrong side of the road (my sphincter is still rcovering from a similar but non-fatal experience) and behind both of these fatalities are hundreds of people who have been injured, damaged bikes, lost jobs, been put in wheelchairs etc. Bike crashes really suck, and in too many cases are preventable - whether that is by the rider changing the way he rides, other people changing the way they drive or Our Masters changing the way they treat us and the roads we ride on.

On this site there are thousands of motorcyclists, from newbies to bunnies to experts to idiots, and I would say most (if not all) of us have had an off and all of us have had our share of scares. It occurs to me that on this site lie the answers to making sure that guys like Ewan and Horse stay alive - answers that have come from making mistakes, learning from them and getting things right.

So my question is, what 3 things should we as individuals, the industry and Our Masters Who Art in Wellington do to make things safer?

My big three are:
1. Rider training should be either compulsory or actively supported and encouraged because riding safely is a skill and skills can be learned.
2. The general public should be made aware of the consequences of causing a bike crash in the same way that they have been made aware of the consequences of causing a crash through speed or alcohol.
3. Motorcyclists should be encouraged and even coerced to wear all the gear all the time - should our lid be subject to a WOF in the same way (I think) diving gear is? I am loathe to introduce compulsion, but should we consider making jackets and gloves compulsory? It would certainly save a lot of scooter/commuter riders.

[Waxxa]

rider training will only happen if its compulsory. Very few riders will pay for training (just the way it is).

cagers to be more aware of motorcyclists and bicyclists for sure! This can be done easily through Learners and Restricted stages.

The councils, farmers, roading contractors and LTNZ need to be more responsible for the conditions of our roads (pot-holes, cow poos, gravel etc.)

[Katman]

We need to get rid of the culture that says "Lets see who can get from A to B the fastest".

[Squiggles]

The councils, farmers, roading contractors and LTNZ need to be more responsible for the conditions of our roads (pot-holes, cow poos, gravel etc.)

We also need to be pro-active about the conditions, persuing those parties above when they are below par.

[yungatart]

It isn't just rider training that needs to be lifted..our whole licensing system needs a good overhaul. It should be much tougher to get your license for any vehicle.
Something like a logged number of hours with a licensed driving/riding instructor in all conditions (weather and road). It would cost a lot more than having old Uncle Joe teach you (his bad habits), but then on the upside, people might actually place a value on their license and work hard at keeping it.
Retesting (practical) every 10 years.
I'm not a fan of making gear compulsory though...I always wear it, I just don't want to be forced to wear it.

[KiwiPhoenix]

Good thread Shrub!!

As a newbie I have been very lucky that I have such good friends that I can turn too for any advice one of which was Ewan. Not once have I had bad advice from anyone. I think as a newbie the things that have helped me is having the confidence to ask questions, admitting that I don't have a clue about riding and I always wear my gear!!! Even on a hot day, I would rather be safe than sorry.

When I decided to get my licence I signed up for this website and I spent about 6 months surrounding myself with bikes and asking questions, watching maintenance and riding pillion. I haven't been around bikes before so wanted to know as much as I could before starting to ride, done the same with the car.

It is unfortuate that there will always be people who are not aware of riders, idiot riding and crap drivers, we just have to make sure that we keep ourselves as safe as possible. I am under no allusions that as a new rider I am bulletproof, infact I have in my head everytime I ride that it's a question of when I come off, not if!

I believe attitude goes along way to ensuring safety, if you act like an idiot you will crash and possibly take out someone else, if you can keep your head on your shoulders and keep your concentration you should be ok. I feel I am constantly learning about myself and my bike and thats a good thing but I have the confidence to ask questions and question myself. I'm not afraid to show that I am sometimes I am out of my depth.

As for the licence system it wouldn't matter if it was a longer or shorter you will always get the idiots, they would still continue to be pratts and put everyone in danger. I'm 33 years old and I have had my car licence for 14 years and never had a car accident, so when I found out that I was under curfew I laughed, but believe me I understand now why it's there!!! I do joke about it but for me it's such a short time to be under curfew. It's also peace of mind for my partner that I'm at home at a reasonable hour!!!

I have paid to do a track day and it was the best money I have spent, I learnt alot about my bike and also myself. I also have the privledge of being able to ask my friends for advice and putting into practice what I am learning.

I think the key things about riding, in my opinon, is learning as much as you can from friends, from websites, trackdays and also having the balls to admit that you are sometimes out your depth and beable to do something about it, then learning from the mistakes! It's the old saying "you can lead a horse to water" There will always be the ones that think they know it all!

I'm very lucky that the group I ride with have been so supportive and honest with me!

[rapid van cleef]

rider and driver safety standards/ hazard awerness and general road sense is very poor in nz. license and theory tests are a joke, hence my 'horn' gets a lot of use, sometimes a shake of the head, sometimes an ......'oh shit!' sometimes a continue and ignore. but this needs to be sorted out. this isnt a criticism of the people, merely the system. and if i get it wrong.............an acknowledging wave and an apology.

[James Deuce]

ATTGATT won't save your life. It is designed to mitigate survivable injuries.

The "Government (tm)" has never been a fan of training drivers and riders and most Traffic Superintendents when pushed will say that they don't support rider or driver training because it promotes an over-confident attitude and crashes happen at higher speeds.

Riders therefore have to take responsibility for improving their own attitude and skills. Plus, every training course I've done has been fun, I've learned something new, and it has freshened my attitude to road riding.

The track day phenomenon has diminished the appeal of road based training and road craft and the concept that it can be fun. People would rather spend money on a one-way closed road system that removes chicken strips and gives them an adrenaline buzz, rather than learn how to avoid that sheep bounding across the road, or how to balance front and rear brake effectively in an emergency stop depending on available grip and space.

What ya gonna do?

[ManDownUnder]

1) Rider training - prevent solo and rider caused accidents
2) Driver training - prevent non rider caused accidents
3) Safety gear - minimise injury in the event of accidents

And sorry to hear of the hell you went through a month ago - probably still are.

[shrub]

rider training will only happen if its compulsory. Very few riders will pay for training (just the way it is).

cagers to be more aware of motorcyclists and bicyclists for sure! This can be done easily through Learners and Restricted stages.

The councils, farmers, roading contractors and LTNZ need to be more responsible for the conditions of our roads (pot-holes, cow poos, gravel etc.)

Good points, thank you, but I think (hope?) that your cynicism regarding motorcyclists and rider training is misplaced. I think most riders want to be better riders, and I have done several courses and continue to do rider training, including going out and practicing braking etc. Having said that, I once read that riding a bike is comparable in skill level to flying a plane, yet nobody would consider getting in a plane without having done a heap of training. Maybe we need to make training part of the licensing process?

As for the awareness aspect - I agree entirely that car drivers need to be taught to be aware. Personally I don't believe that they don't see us, but instead choose (at a subconscious level) not to notice us, something that is well supported by research internationally. If people were aware that they could get killed when they get hit by a bike (and it happens), or that they could not just kill the biker, but end up in prison, we may see a different approach. It's interesting that children are statistically much less likely to get run over than bikes to be pulled out in front of, yet they're smaller than we are. People don't want to hurt children, whereas we are seen as less valuable/fragile.

I think the key lies in social marketing.

[Genestho]

So my question is, what 3 things should we as individuals, the industry and Our Masters Who Art in Wellington do to make things safer?

My big three are:
1. Rider training should be either compulsory or actively supported and encouraged because riding safely is a skill and skills can be learned.
2. The general public should be made aware of the consequences of causing a bike crash in the same way that they have been made aware of the consequences of causing a crash through speed or alcohol.
3. Motorcyclists should be encouraged and even coerced to wear all the gear all the time - should our lid be subject to a WOF in the same way (I think) diving gear is? I am loathe to introduce compulsion, but should we consider making jackets and gloves compulsory? It would certainly save a lot of scooter/commuter riders.

These three issues (and many more) will be addressed via the safer journeys public consultation that was sent out last year.
At the end of the day you can have laws, but if there's no enforcement or respect for laws then that achieves diddly squat.
From what I see Joyce (MOT) is a fairly practical bloke in transport issues, and I expect there will be announcements this year.

BUT the truth is preventing these tragedies, requires social concience and personal attitude shifts. Without these, you'll still get the 'guys' unwilling to learn, unwilling to protect themselves. Unfortunately real and experienced tragedy is often the only way people will learn.

[The Stranger]

rider training will only happen if its compulsory. Very few riders will pay for training (just the way it is).


You can compel people to attend, you can't compel people to learn however.

[James Deuce]

Good points, thank you, but I think (hope?) that your cynicism regarding motorcyclists and rider training is misplaced.



No, he's bang on. The ones signing up for training and actively seeking advice are the ones for whom it is less necessary.

[shrub]

The track day phenomenon has diminished the appeal of road based training and road craft and the concept that it can be fun. People would rather spend money on a one-way closed road system that removes chicken strips and gives them an adrenaline buzz, rather than learn how to avoid that sheep bounding across the road, or how to balance front and rear brake effectively in an emergency stop depending on available grip and space.

What ya gonna do?

A very good point. As you say track based training is fun and has benefits, but I think it does encourage people to ride faster because they realise just how fast a bike can be ridden. I think the solution is road-based training that isn't naff, or track based training that simulates real life hazards. Many years ago I did a course at Bay Park (on a CB750 SOHC), and a large chunk of it was on the gravel speedway track. We were made to ride fast on gravel and the instructors did shit like throw things in front of us to make us swerve and brake on the gravel. I am now a very confident wet road rider and the skills I picked up have saved my skin many times.

I disagree about ATTGATT - while you're right, primarily reduces survivable injuries, good gear can make the difference between injuries that are survivable and those that aren't - for example the trauma caused by masses of lost skin can put pressure on a weak heart.And obviously good helmets save lives all the time, but bad helmets don't, and a lot of people ride in bad helmets (fit, condition etc).

[shrub]

No, he's bang on. The ones signing up for training and actively seeking advice are the ones for whom it is less necessary.

So how do we change the mindset to get more people engaging in training or seeking advice?

[James Deuce]

You can't. The best place to start would be raising the age for getting a bike license to 25.

[p.dath]

ATTGATT won't save your life. It is designed to mitigate survivable injuries.

I can't agree with this blanket statement JD. Reducing the severity of an accident in many cases may be all that is required to save a persons life. And I'm sure that without the compulsory use of helmets a lot more people would be dead.

But even so, reducing the severity of survivable injuries is not a bad outcome. I think if you interviewed a whole of serious injured riders who weren't wearing much protection, and asked them if they wished they were wearing more ptotection you would get a very high percentage of them saying "yes".



The "Government (tm)" has never been a fan of training drivers and riders and most Traffic Superintendents when pushed will say that they don't support rider or driver training because it promotes an over-confident attitude and crashes happen at higher speeds.

I like the emphasis on Government. Government is so big with so many competing views it's hard to work out which bit is being talked about sometimes.

But I find it hard to believe your contention that the Police would be opposed to more driver/rider training. I'm sure there would be the "odd" Superintendent with this view, but I can't believe that the majority would share the view you have put forth.


Riders therefore have to take responsibility for improving their own attitude and skills. Plus, every training course I've done has been fun, I've learned something new, and it has freshened my attitude to road riding.

Agreed. If you don't take responsibility for yourself then it is highly unlikely that the efforts of others will make much of a difference.


The track day phenomenon has diminished the appeal of road based training and road craft and the concept that it can be fun.

To be fair, track day training is generaly much safer because of its predictablity. I definately think it has its place in the overall training experience.


You can't. The best place to start would be raising the age for getting a bike license to 25.

I think a raise in age would be in order. I'd prefer to see a smaller step to begin with though, say 17, to see the effect. "Radical" regulatory changes can be a bit scary.

[Hopeful Bastard]

Best thing to do??

Teach them Tourists how to fucking drive!

I dont care if you are french, English, Samoan, Chinese, Russian, black, yellow, green, or white! You drive on the left side of the road and keep an eye out for EVERYTHING around you!

[Katman]

Best thing to do??

Teach them Tourists how to fucking drive!

I dont care if you are french, English, Samoan, Chinese, Russian, black, yellow, green, or white! You drive on the left side of the road and keep an eye out for EVERYTHING around you!

Incompetent tourists would probably be the smallest factor featuring in motorcycle accidents.

Why don't you look for the bigger picture?

The fact that you even bothered to mention it in the context of this thread marks you as someone positively born to be a motorcyclist.







(And no, that wasn't a compliment).

[PrincessBandit]

There will always be deaths and serious injury on our roads, and all efforts should be made to minimise the risk of this happening.
Too many New Zealanders have a shocking attitude to being in charge of a vehicle, primarily that they are the only one who counts or exist once behind the wheel or in the riding seat.
We need to learn road courtesy and ensure we all stick to the rules which are there to protect us from ourselves and each other.

I do see the point which people make regarding the poor conditions that our roads can be in, yet with appropriate riding/driving modification even these should be manageable to navigate where necessary.

There will never be consensus amongst riders as to what is the best way to save ourselves because too many are convinced that you're either a "safety nazi" or a party pooper or tell you "hey, don't bother going out your door 'cos you might get hit by a bus", not to mention the old chestnut of "at least they died doing something they love" (a sentiment I struggle to fully understand).

[The Stranger]

But I find it hard to believe your contention that the Police would be opposed to more driver/rider training. I'm sure there would be the "odd" Superintendent with this view, but I can't believe that the majority would share the view you have put forth.


To be fair, track day training is generaly much safer because of its predictablity. I definately think it has its place in the overall training experience.



Noob.
How long have people been driving and riding for? 200yrs?
How many govt run, supported, sponsored, sanctioned driving/riding skill courses are there?
0
And you think the govt don't share the view held by the Police?
All it needs is you to come down in the last shower and discover the real truth eh.
Jim, knows his shit!

Safety of participants is not an issue with road focussed training courses. We have never sent a participant off in an ambo in 12 years.

[The Stranger]

Incompetent tourists would probably be the smallest factor featuring in motorcycle accidents.

Why don't you look for the bigger picture?

Cops doing U turns.

[White trash]

We need to get rid of the culture that says "Lets see who can get from A to B the fastest".

Ahhhh but that weeds out those who "can" and those who "think they can". Survival of the fittest and all that.....

[SPman]

At the end of the day you can have laws, but if there's no enforcement or respect for laws then that achieves diddly squat.

But the laws need to be sensible, fair and reasonable, and sensibly enforced, or else it leads back to the lack of respect for and ignoring of.....

[James Deuce]

I like the emphasis on Government. Government is so big with so many competing views it's hard to work out which bit is being talked about sometimes.

But I find it hard to believe your contention that the Police would be opposed to more driver/rider training. I'm sure there would be the "odd" Superintendent with this view, but I can't believe that the majority would share the view you have put forth.

.

I've already provided the quote and source for that in a previous thread. I'm not doing it again. The previous Traffic Super said it and the current woman also said the same thing in a radio interview over the Christmas break. The Traffic Super's word is a reflection of Government and Police policy and they never counter it after a public statement to that effect from any Police or NZTA source. Andy Knackstedt was thrilled with the previous Super's stance and went on public record in an almost joyous fashion supporting the claim that advanced rider and driver training was inherently dangerous.

Send either organisation an email and ask them if they support advanced rider or driver training.

ATGATT will not save your life. I think shrub was alluding to interstitial fluid shift in the case of skin loss. It isn't a weak heart that kills you, it's the sudden destabilisation of your electrolytes as fluid rushes to the damaged areas that throws your heart out of sinus rhythm. It doesn't need a weak heart for you to die from it. A person as healthy as an Ox will die if major efforts to hydrate and balance electrolytes aren't carried out quick smart. Most of the deaths I've seen, the rider has been ATTGATT and they've died of internal injuries. Complications like ruptured spleen, detached heart muscle, or a deformed head requiring the helmet being cut off with a band saw. In one memorable accident I made the mistake of removing the helmet from an already dead rider. The nose pieces on his glasses had stripped the scalp off his head from eybrows to the top of his head as the helmet rotated up over his head. Big impact that one. I went and got contacts the next day. Leave a beautiful corpse and all that.

ATTGATT will lessen the impact of survivable injuries. Anyone who relies on the gear they are wearing to "save their life" is, quite frankly, an idiot. A helmet will probably protect you from an unnecessary death in a stationary or low speed tip over. Slide into a curb head first at 80 km/hr and the force of that impact will do more than hurt your head. Even with the helmet on, your brain still slams into your skull. If you've ever been rendered unconscious while wearing a helmet, I can guarantee you've had a significant head injury.

Track days are a false economy. The incorrect assumption that track days improve people's handling skills so there are less accidents is patently untrue when you consider that 40% of motorcycle fatalities are single vehicle cornering "accidents". The most important survival skill is situational awareness. Avoiding incidents before they become a problem and making that attitude second nature. You can't learn situational awareness on a race track that is relevant to road riding.

[Katman]

Ahhhh but that weeds out those who "can" and those who "think they can". Survival of the fittest and all that.....

Do those that "can't", become Spannermen?

:crazy:

[YellowDog]

Best thing to do??

Teach them Tourists how to fucking drive!

I dont care if you are french, English, Samoan, Chinese, Russian, black, yellow, green, or white! You drive on the left side of the road and keep an eye out for EVERYTHING around you!

New Zealand driving standards are some of the worst I have ever seen anywhere in the world. Yes there are some great drivers, but the general standard is very poor.

Are we suggesting that we train already better tourists how to drive as badly? I don't think so. Perhaps NZ should get rid of that silly left turn rule and also drive on the right and not the left side of the road?

I don't know the answer however when I have gone to countries where you drive on the others side I am certainly a great deal more cautious. If a tourist made a mistake and it cost lives, then that is very sad however I don't think we should over react.

The answer to the problem with motorcycle deaths is not as straightforward as we would like.

Firstly, we are all able to make mistakes which could potentially cost us our lives. As we get more experienced the number of mistakes we make reduces.

There is an element of personal choice which has nothing to do with experience and ability. If I choose to jump from 60 to 150kph in a 50 zone because the lights are green and road is clear; then that is my very bad choice. 9/10 I may get away with it, but the guy running the red light because nothing's coming may well result in my untimely death. The fact is that some of us will take unnecessary risks and this is down to our personalities and perhaps also how we are feeling at that moment in time.

From the other end of the scale, I see many motorcyclists who have no idea at all and IMO really should not be on the road. I know I keep repeating the same thing however IMO it is ridiculous that we allow noobs to learn how not to die on a 250cc motorcycle. It is wrong and there should be a higher level of competenace and standards to reach before being allowed to learn how not to die on the public highway. Maybe a 125cc limit would be a better starting threshold and a more thorough examination. Perhaps if more failed their tests and had to make more effort to pass then more would be better skilled to survive the initial learn how not to die period.

The problem I see is that big money is being invested in the Speed Kills slogan. This is not really helping improve road standrads which are pretty bad at any speed.

[SPman]

Avoiding incidents before they become a problem and making that attitude second nature. You can't learn situational awareness on a race track that is relevant to road riding. Which is why, track days are fun, but don't really do a lot for real world, road riding ability other than improved awareness of what your bike may be able to do. Learning how to ride properly, on the road and continually practicing until it all becomes automatic, does more for survival chances than a continuous diet of track days.

I don't know the answer however when I have gone to countries where you drive on the others side I am certainly a great deal more cautious. If a tourist made a mistake and it cost lives, then that is very sad however I don't think we should over react. A lot of it is reverting to default, learned, driving settings in a moment of stress. It's happened to me overseas and it's a scary thing when you realise it. It's something that will never be eliminated unless all countries standardise their driving regulations.....

[Kickaha]

I think most riders want to be better riders


I think most riders consider themselves better than they really are

[crazyhorse]

We need to get rid of the culture that says "Lets see who can get from A to B the fastest".

That'll never happen. Although, detune every bike out there back to the olden days and you might get somewhere

[crazyhorse]

I think correct bike attire is a must, and I would be behind this if it was to be made compulsory.

I wouldn't let my son get on the bike if he wasn't in the right gear. No gear, no key.... He knows the rules now, but had to enforce that when he was learning to ride. Easy option out I guess, esp in the heat of our summer days

[Katman]

That'll never happen. Although, detune every bike out there back to the olden days and you might get somewhere

If we don't make a real effort to get rid of the culture ourselves you can be damned sure TPTB will make up whatever rules necessary to do it for us.

[onearmedbandit]

We need to get rid of the culture that says "Lets see who can get from A to B the fastest".

While I agree that this attitude has a lot to do with the reasons why motorcyclists continue to crash, this way of thinking is almost hard-wired in us all from a young age, maybe even something we are born with. It is this culture that has brought mankind to where we are today, it is responsible for everything from space travel to Sir Ed climbing Mt Everest. I'm not saying I've got the answer, or even if there is an answer.

[2wheeldrifter]

I think correct bike attire is a must, and I would be behind this if it was to be made compulsory.

I wouldn't let my son get on the bike if he wasn't in the right gear. No gear, no key.... He knows the rules now, but had to enforce that when he was learning to ride. Easy option out I guess, esp in the heat of our summer days

Well done pushing the "no key no bike to ride" until he wore the proper riding gear! :)

[yungatart]

We need to get rid of the culture that says "Lets see who can get from A to B the fastest".
I believe that this is happening, albeit slowly. I know several riders who have slowed down considerably in the last few years. A cruise or a pootle is now the norm for them.


That'll never happen. Although, detune every bike out there back to the olden days and you might get somewhere

See above. It is happening!
I know who I would rather ride with...and it ain't those who fill up on alcohol at every stop and ride at what they think is race pace to the next stop, in a determined efffort to prove they have a bigger cock.

As for detuning, what would that do? Because the culture of "go hard" riders will simply retune them back to full performance. It is the wrist doing the twisting that is the problem, not the power of the bike...in other words, the nut on the steering head.....

[p.dath]

How long have people been driving and riding for? 200yrs?
How many govt run, supported, sponsored, sanctioned driving/riding skill courses are there?


So you saying that because there is a lack of Government run programmes that means the Government is opposed to increased driver/rider training. That's preposterous.

That's like saying because there is no Government run tyre shops the Government doesn't support the use of tyres.


And you think the govt don't share the view held by the Police?
All it needs is you to come down in the last shower and discover the real truth eh.
Jim, knows his shit!

There is no doubt that JD can put forwards a very persuasive argument for his points of view.

JD has put forward the assertion that the "Government(tm)" is opposed to increased driver/rider training - because it creates complacent drivers/riders. I don't agree. In fact, I think it is laughable.
Perhaps you might like to put forward an argument as to why you think the Government is opposed? I can't say I have ever seen anything to make me think that any NZ Government has adopted this viewpoint.


Safety of participants is not an issue with road focussed training courses. We have never sent a participant off in an ambo in 12 years.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you trying to say that because there are no accidents the training is better in every regard?

I could create a training program for riders. I could advise them not to put the ignition key in their motorcycle. Chances are my training program would have very few ambulance call outs. Does that suddenly make it a great all round training program. No.

By all means, only do road based training if that is what you feel is best for you. Personally I think we'll turn out better more well rounded riders by exposing them to a larger number of experiences, and that includes on-track training.
Everyone is free to decide for themselves. Those that agree with me will simply turn up to track based training programs and road based training programs.

[crazyhorse]

I believe that this is happening, albeit slowly. I know several riders who have slowed down considerably in the last few years. A cruise or a pootle is now the norm for them.

See above. It is happening!
I know who I would rather ride with...and it ain't those who fill up on alcohol at every stop and ride at what they think is race pace to the next stop, in a determined efffort to prove they have a bigger cock.

As for detuning, what would that do? Because the culture of "go hard" riders will simply retune them back to full performance. It is the wrist doing the twisting that is the problem, not the power of the bike...in other words, the nut on the steering head.....

Cars are faster today than they used to be............... so they too have this problem with the young trying to put their foot down. Bikes are way faster too, same reason. Correct - having a fast bike does not mean you have to ride it to its limit.

I don't believe there are many who ride and go out and get pissed up on alcohol as you may believe. I for one, generally only have a drink - or two depending on the length of the ride. I am also known to ask for a milkshake, or coffee too, and from what I have heard on KB lately, so too do alot of others.

Group rides do provoke some or most folk to ride outside their limits, and I believe at some point in time we have all given ourselves a scare or two. It is always a tragedy to hear of the plight of others, and as I have said before, it DOES make me think each time I get on the bike and go for a trundle.


Yes, occassionally we ride quick, but choose those times, and they too, are becoming alot less. Not everyone is for 'speed' it takes the enjoyment out of a ride. And you miss the scenery too!

[crazyhorse]

Well done pushing the "no key no bike to ride" until he wore the proper riding gear! :)

As a parent it was my duty to teach him correctly. Doesn't help that his father would wear shorts and tee-shirt in his earlier days, but I managed to get him to see reason.

I let him take my bike for a ride the other day, and told him if he wore his dragon jeans instead of the proper pants, forget it - so he turned up in his full suit, and had a great ride on it.

[James Deuce]

There is no doubt that JD can put forwards a very persuasive argument for his points of view.

JD has put forward the assertion that the "Government(tm)" is opposed to increased driver/rider training - because it creates complacent drivers/riders. I don't agree. In fact, I think it is laughable.
Perhaps you might like to put forward an argument as to why you think the Government is opposed? I can't say I have ever seen anything to make me think that any NZ Government has adopted this viewpoint.



I

It's not an assertion. It is fact.

As I said I've posted the quote from the source before and I'm simply not going there again. Email NZTA, MoT, and the Police and ask them if they support Advanced Driver training as a way of reducing accidents and deaths in NZ. You will not get the answer you expect.

The previous Traffic Superintendent is on record as opposing Advanced driver training, not because it makes drivers complacent, but because it makes them over-confident and causes accidents to happen at higher speeds with greater consequences. If you're going to quote me try not to change the message in the process.

[Ixion]

The binary gentleman is correct in his statements regarding the attitude of police and TQPKALTSA (The quango previously known as LTSA). Thy are opposed to ALL driver training or education other then that by licensed instructors ffollowing a syllabus deesigned around the requirements of the GDLS . And thus, inherently, opposed to all training once a driver/rider has a full licnce

The poistion is illogical and downright stupid. But, that is their position.

This imbecility colours all road safety in this country. Since it is a Bad Thing for people to be taught (or to learn) how to drive or ride safely, it is necessary to assume that they will crash. Therefore the focus of raod safety is on making the crashes (which are considered inevitable) more survivable. hence, lower speed limits, seat belts , air bags etc. Doesn't work for bikes (doesn't really work for cars, either, but massively unworks for bikes)

[p.dath]

The binary gentleman is correct in his statements regarding the attitude of police and TQPKALTSA (The quango previously known as LTSA). Thy are opposed to ALL driver training or education other then that by licensed instructors ffollowing a syllabus deesigned around the requirements of the GDLS . And thus, inherently, opposed to all training once a driver/rider has a full licnce

I don't know, but any chance this is an interpretation of the situation? I can understand why the "Government(tm)" supports "approved" courses by approved instructors. This would seem reasonable as it ensures all the training is done to a certain standard. Obviously they want certain things pushed, and by tightly controlling the training they can ensure this happens.

But does that necessarily mean they are opposed to other forms of advanced training? Once again, I don't know (never been involved in such a communication with "them"). Perhaps has this been implied because of a lack of vocal support from the Government, as opposed to the situation proposed - being that the Government is opposed to advanced driver/rider training?

[James Deuce]

Ask the Givernment and its agencies. As far as I'm concerned they've made their position very clear.

[Qkchk]

rider training will only happen if its compulsory. Very few riders will pay for training (just the way it is).



Unfortunately this is too true. Most entry level riders (where I conduct the majority of my teachings) only want to do the bare minimum just so they can 'fast-track' their licence so they can get a larger capacity machine. I would like to see the NZTA revamp the system to a 'logged hours' (just like in attaining a PPL - pilots licence) situation with an instructor but also include this for cars as well.

[MSTRS]

P.Dath - hear what Jim etc are saying...
The Govt does not support 'advanced' training because they believe that the resultant 'skilled' motorists will use that skill to drive/ride faster. The Govt's stated aim is to slow everyone down, so they are hardly likely to support initiatives that counter that.
As for track based training...I've never seen a road that is like a race track, so what good does finding my/bike's limits on a track going to do me on a road? When those limits are so much less on a road. Roads do not have the same room or surface or grip or runoffs or...or...or as a track does. You are fooling yourself if you think that track learned skills are the shizz on the road.

[CookMySock]

1. Rider training should be either compulsory or actively supported and encouraged because riding safely is a skill and skills can be learned.Ditch the kiwi system and replace it with the french system.



2. The general public should be made aware of the consequences of causing a bike crash in the same way that they have been made aware of the consequences of causing a crash through speed or alcohol.The general public doesn't give a fuck unless it affects them. Which it doesn't. Unless you aim for their drivers' door (or their female companions' door) then they get the message pronto, but strangely it will be the bikers' fault.



3. Motorcyclists should be encouraged and even coerced to wear all the gear all the time - should our lid be subject to a WOF in the same way (I think) diving gear is? I am loathe to introduce compulsion, but should we consider making jackets and gloves compulsory? It would certainly save a lot of scooter/commuter riders.It doesn't need to be compulsory, but they should pay for a large proportion of the cost of the injury that was caused.

Ie,

no helmet and brain injury? :bye: Don't pass go.. $0

No kevlar pants, jacket or gloves? Skin lost is your problem. :bye:

No boots? Toes missing? Oops!

The only thing is, it's easy to add blame to the situation - hell if someone pulls out in front of you, prepared to be fined for not driving to the conditions, and hello ACC penalty! It's not your fucken fault, but you pay.


IMO, YMMV, etc, ad nauseum.
Steve

[The Stranger]

So you saying that because there is a lack of Government run programmes that means the Government is opposed to increased driver/rider training. That's preposterous.

That's like saying because there is no Government run tyre shops the Government doesn't support the use of tyres.


What the fuck? The govt opening tyre shops isn't going to help road safety one iota. What the fuck are you smoking?




There is no doubt that JD can put forwards a very persuasive argument for his points of view.

JD has put forward the assertion that the "Government(tm)" is opposed to increased driver/rider training - because it creates complacent drivers/riders. I don't agree. In fact, I think it is laughable.
Perhaps you might like to put forward an argument as to why you think the Government is opposed? I can't say I have ever seen anything to make me think that any NZ Government has adopted this viewpoint.


So they spend millions and millions of dollars ostensibly to keep us alive and hadn't considered driver training as a possiblitiy? Really? All it will take is for you to suggest it, I'm sure they just hadn't thought of it.



I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you trying to say that because there are no accidents the training is better in every regard?


No. Is that what you were trying to say when you said
"To be fair, track day training is generaly much safer because of its predictablity."?

You indicated trackday training is "generaly much safer because of its predictablity" what is the basis for your assertion. Do you have some statistical evidence to back that up?



I could create a training program for riders. I could advise them not to put the ignition key in their motorcycle. Chances are my training program would have very few ambulance call outs. Does that suddenly make it a great all round training program. No.

By all means, only do road based training if that is what you feel is best for you. Personally I think we'll turn out better more well rounded riders by exposing them to a larger number of experiences, and that includes on-track training.
Everyone is free to decide for themselves. Those that agree with me will simply turn up to track based training programs and road based training programs.


Who said anything about only doing road based programs - oh thats right you. Dude you're arguing with yourself, it's not a good look.

[onearmedbandit]

To see what JD etc are talking about in action, one particular 'road safety' message advertised on TV currently comes to mind. The ad depicts the scenario of a driver losing control by clipping the shingle on the inside of a corner and then becoming 'one' with a truck. And what does this ad suggest we should do? Learn to drive better? Slow down? Take advanced driver training to save yourself? No. It promotes that you buy a car with 'dynamic stability control', because this type of car will save you and itself from crashing. I'm not even going to begin ripping this ad apart on every level, it does a good job of it itself.

[The Stranger]

Unfortunately this is too true. Most entry level riders (where I conduct the majority of my teachings) only want to do the bare minimum just so they can 'fast-track' their licence so they can get a larger capacity machine. I would like to see the NZTA revamp the system to a 'logged hours' (just like in attaining a PPL - pilots licence) situation with an instructor but also include this for cars as well.

If by instructor you mean a licensed instructor that'll never happen. Not enough instructors and they're not in enough places. The rural sector (and you would be amazed at the sway they hold in these matters) would effectively stomp on that one.

[shrub]

To see what JD etc are talking about in action, one particular 'road safety' message advertised on TV currently comes to mind.

And then there is the one where the guy is driving through the burbs in his Corolla and comes round a corner to find someone getting out of the car and shows how ugly things get at 60 kmh compared to 50 kmh. It never mentioned him tailgating other drivers or the sheer stupidity of not watching round a corner.

There have been some interesting (and disheartening) comments about advanced training, and I'm afraid they're probably right. Our Leaders have decided that speed and alcohol are the two areas that they will target in their attempt to be seen to do something because they are cheap amd easy to measure results. If they're flat out chasing speeders they don't need to worry about the guy changing the CD and taking his eyes off the road for several seconds at 100 kmh. He's really hard to prosecute, so let him go. "We're doing our bit - we issued 78787 speeding tickets last year".

And in the meantime people die.

[Squiggles]

If by instructor you mean a licensed instructor that'll never happen. Not enough instructors and they're not in enough places. The rural sector (and you would be amazed at the sway they hold in these matters) would effectively stomp on that one.

And if solutions were found to counter this?

[The Stranger]

And if solutions were found to counter this?


Well, then you'd have to get the instructors working for nix, or near nix so as it was affordable.

[PrincessBandit]

Personal responsibility from every road user is the only way to decrease* accidents and deaths. Unfortunately until the MAJORITY of riders and drivers and cyclists take this on board nothing will change. More legislation and regulation will only "dumb everything down" (not unlike OSH being such a major pita these days with every little cut or stubbed toe being 'preventable'). You see it with vehicles - the more safety features, the more idiots will push the envelope 'cause they're in a "safer" car.
However if people can suck the lemon, be mature enough to use the road with commonsense and leaving their ego at home, then I don't see why there couldn't be a huge change in direction of statistics.

* I did not say eliminate accidents and deaths

[Squiggles]

Well, then you'd have to get the instructors working for nix, or near nix so as it was affordable.

Its a can of worms but, imo, if licensing cost more there'd be more respect for having one being a priviledge. Some people will be inconvenienced, but where do we draw the line?

Actually (For interests sake), Where does a west coast dweller go to do their scratch and win?

[Mikkel]

and keep an eye out for EVERYTHING around you!

...you'd better because the locals sure as hell won't. If there would be one word to describe kiwi drivers (in general) it would be oblivious.

It is quite simple, people aren't taught to take it serious - thus they don't take it serious. Imagine we allowed airline pilots to have a similar attitude...


I think most riders consider themselves better than they really are

95% of all motorists consider themselves "average or above"...


While I agree that this attitude has a lot to do with the reasons why motorcyclists continue to crash, this way of thinking is almost hard-wired in us all from a young age, maybe even something we are born with. It is this culture that has brought mankind to where we are today, it is responsible for everything from space travel to Sir Ed climbing Mt Everest. I'm not saying I've got the answer, or even if there is an answer.

Yes, but Sir Ed didn't conquer Everest, NASA didn't get to the moon and Michael Schumaker didn't win races because they were blase about it. They accomplished that through a combination of hard work, deep understanding and utmost respect for their challenge. Now Mr. XR8 Bathhurst and Johnny Boyracer haven't had to work hard to get their license, they have little or no understanding of what actually constitute proper driving and they have no respect for their fellow motorists.

First thing to address is to make people realise that motoring is serious business. Making obviously flawed commercials and putting forward idiotic slogans is probably counter-productive in this regard.


The Govt does not support 'advanced' training because they believe that the resultant 'skilled' motorists will use that skill to drive/ride faster.

That sounds reasonable - at least when people don't have the skills they can't speed... or what? What can you do when faced with sheer idiocy like that?


There have been some interesting (and disheartening) comments about advanced training, and I'm afraid they're probably right. Our Leaders have decided that speed and alcohol are the two areas that they will target in their attempt to be seen to do something because they are cheap amd easy to measure results. If they're flat out chasing speeders they don't need to worry about the guy changing the CD and taking his eyes off the road for several seconds at 100 kmh. He's really hard to prosecute, so let him go. "We're doing our bit - we issued 78787 speeding tickets last year".

On that account I must admit I have always wondered how the police can justify doing speeding-enforcement using radar equipment while on the move - with one officer in the car. Honestly, his attention can not be fully directed towards the primary task at hand...

[YellowDog]

We need to get rid of the culture that says "Lets see who can get from A to B the fastest".

I just don't agree that is is the problem or the culture.

Maybe we should all just take the bus, which would sort the problem. There's no point in us all riding in a line like we are on the bus.

Just got back from a jaunt down the Southern Motorway. Oops. Sorry it's not a motorway is it? Motorways have rules and regulations. It's a Freeway, that's what it is.

So on the Southern Freeway we have three lanes and three different speeds? No we actually have three lanes at 10 differing speeds. It's a free for all.

The guy I was following on the Silver SV was doing a great impreeion of a Bus in the centre lane. He then got fed up with being over taken from both sides so he boots it down the inside and overtakes 30 cars or so.

And why shouldn't he? He is just playing by the unwritten rules of the freeway.

We have no discipline and we have no enforcement. Just maybe that would be a good place to start. New road users have very little or no chace at all.

Speed Kills! Yeah right!

I suggest that it is poor standard road usage that actually kills.

[The Stranger]

Its a can of worms but, imo, if licensing cost more there'd be more respect for having one being a priviledge. Some people will be inconvenienced, but where do we draw the line?

Actually (For interests sake), Where does a west coast dweller go to do their scratch and win?

We draw the line at 400 road deaths and we have no problems. It's the arsehole who drew the line at 300 that causes all this shit.
Piha? Go to Henderson to do your scratch and win.

[scumdog]

And then there is the one where the guy is driving through the burbs in his Corolla and comes round a corner to find someone getting out of the car and shows how .

Maybe the message is: "If you drive like the slack-jawed mouthbreathing cretins that clutter our roads and tail-gate and don't look ahead around corners you had better slow down so hopefully you're less likely to plough into objects that normal people would avoid without thinking about it"?<_<

[p.dath]

As for track based training...I've never seen a road that is like a race track, so what good does finding my/bike's limits on a track going to do me on a road? When those limits are so much less on a road. Roads do not have the same room or surface or grip or runoffs or...or...or as a track does. You are fooling yourself if you think that track learned skills are the shizz on the road.

Your a mentor, so I have to give you credit for riding skills and experience that would greatly exceed mine.

I can only comment from personal experience (and your experience doing on track training is obviously different to mine). I feel much safer practising skills on a track where I know there are no dangers (or rather, there is a lot more predictability with regard to hazards). I much prefer practising counter-balancing, leaning, changing body positions, throttle control, looking where I want to go, and any other number of things on the track. The track lets me greatly extend my limits. Once I get back on the road everything feels much easier, as rather than riding within 80% of my limit at some particular point, I might now be riding at only 40% of my ability.

I wouldn't hesitate to tell anyone else wanting to improve their skills to also attend track based training after my own personal experiences.

[Katman]

I just don't agree that is is the problem or the culture.

Maybe we should all just take the bus, which would sort the problem. There's no point in us all riding in a line like we are on the bus.



That's not the point I was trying to make.

I was refering specifically to group rides and open road riding (whether in a group or on one's own).

[Squiggles]

We draw the line at 400 road deaths and we have no problems. It's the arsehole who drew the line at 300 that causes all this shit.
Piha? Go to Henderson to do your scratch and win.

I meant Franz Josef or Fox by west coast dwellers.
Should we be happy with 400? Is that going to teach people the give way rules? To head check? We're heading for the stage where learners will approach an intersection and try to work out if they're the red or blue car from the scratchie (now online) test.

[YellowDog]

That's not the point I was trying to make.

I was refering specifically to group rides and open road riding (whether in a group or on one's own).

Well I guess I do agree with you that this is one of many problems and the primary reason I choose to avoid such rides.

[p.dath]

I've read what I wrote again Stranger. It appears the two of us are getting a different meaning from the same text.


P.Dath - hear what Jim etc are saying...
The Govt does not support 'advanced' training because they believe that the resultant 'skilled' motorists will use that skill to drive/ride faster. The Govt's stated aim is to slow everyone down, so they are hardly likely to support initiatives that counter that.
As for track based training...I've never seen a road that is like a race track, so what good does finding my/bike's limits on a track going to do me on a road? When those limits are so much less on a road. Roads do not have the same room or surface or grip or runoffs or...or...or as a track does. You are fooling yourself if you think that track learned skills are the shizz on the road.


What the fuck? The govt opening tyre shops isn't going to help road safety one iota. What the fuck are you smoking?

I'm saying just because the Government does not run advanced rider training does not mean they do not support drivers/riders getting additional training.



So they spend millions and millions of dollars ostensibly to keep us alive and hadn't considered driver training as a possiblitiy? Really? All it will take is for you to suggest it, I'm sure they just hadn't thought of it.

Training has been discussed a lot. Did you take part in the Safer Journers discussion that happended recently? There was a lot of talk about changing and improving the training around the GDLS scheme. This is the web site if you want to read up about the changes to training that we being proposed:
http://www.saferjourneys.govt.nz/



No. Is that what you were trying to say when you said
"To be fair, track day training is generaly much safer because of its predictablity."?

You indicated trackday training is "generaly much safer because of its predictablity" what is the basis for your assertion. Do you have some statistical evidence to back that up?

I don't think I have seen any empirical studies into either track or on-road training to support either conclusion. So I can only offer my personal opinion. Lets take one aspect. Personally I think it is safer practicing counter-balancing going around corners at 100km/h when there are no oncoming vehicles, you can run wide because the track is much wider than a road, and when you don't get it right you can go and do it again on the same corner in the same conditions until you do get it right. A road is not forgiving like a track.

Does that make sense? Do you understand why I personally feel this way - even if you don't share my viewpoint?



Who said anything about only doing road based programs - oh thats right you. Dude you're arguing with yourself, it's not a good look.

Both yourself and JD sad you felt there was no value in track based training, and that it should be done on the road. I said I don't agree. And I've explained why I don't agree.

[hayd3n]

make it compulsory that all new riders sign up to kiwi-biker!@!!

[The Stranger]

Should we be happy with 400?


I don't plan to be in that group no matter what size it is thanks. Do you?
More die each year from prostate cancer (than 400) and what resources get put into that by comparrison? It's a fucken storm in a teacup created by the stroke of a pen.
So yep, I'm happy with 400.

[The Stranger]

Both yourself and JD sad you felt there was no value in track based training.

Please advise the post number or thread where I said this.

[McJim]

I think that there needs to be an overall attitude shift in New Zealand. At the risk of being advised to "Go back home ya pommie git" I have to confess that drivers, riders and cyclists in the UK are Waaaay more courteous and vigilant than here. There is an air of cooperation on UK motorways and roads and a sort of "we're all in it together" road user mentality. Of course there are some fuckwits too as there are in any subset of the human population just not as many as here. Another disturbing phenomenon I have seen here is where a driver makes an error other drivers actively try to get involved in a collision (coz they are right) back home I have seen people make errors and the other road users made way for the mistake - no one was hurt and a wave of apology was made.

Remember New Zealand it's never a race on the open road and if someone overtakes you it's nothing personal.

[p.dath]

Please advise the post number or thread where I said this.

I apologise. You never said it directly. I had inferred it from what you wrote.

With regard to JD's posts, I was thinking of number 8:

The track day phenomenon has diminished the appeal of road based training
and number 25:

Track days are a false economy. The incorrect assumption that track days improve people's handling skills so there are less accidents is patently untrue when you consider that 40% of motorcycle fatalities are single vehicle cornering "accidents". The most important survival skill is situational awareness. Avoiding incidents before they become a problem and making that attitude second nature. You can't learn situational awareness on a race track that is relevant to road riding.

[bsasuper]

I hate to say it but the aussies have one up on us, they have been making the general public aware of motorcyclists for over 20yrs.

[MSTRS]

Your a mentor, so I have to give you credit for riding skills and experience that would greatly exceed mine.

I can only comment from personal experience (and your experience doing on track training is obviously different to mine). I feel much safer practising skills on a track where I know there are no dangers (or rather, there is a lot more predictability with regard to hazards). I much prefer practising counter-balancing, leaning, changing body positions, throttle control, looking where I want to go, and any other number of things on the track. The track lets me greatly extend my limits. Once I get back on the road everything feels much easier, as rather than riding within 80% of my limit at some particular point, I might now be riding at only 40% of my ability.

I wouldn't hesitate to tell anyone else wanting to improve their skills to also attend track based training after my own personal experiences.

I'm not saying there is no point in track-based training...but really, you said it yourself where I've bolded it. Also applies to road surface etc. Almost nothing is 'predictable' on the road, like it is on a track. And that is where track-based training (for road riding) falls down. You are far better to do a RRRS course to learn the basics of bike handling, and then practise on a quiet road.



I'm saying just because the Government does not run advanced rider training does not mean they do not support drivers/riders getting additional training.

Support means providing courses or funding tutors to do so. Patently, this does not exist. And senior traffic officials, including police are on record as saying they do not support advanced driver training. For the reasons we've already stated in this thread.

[The Stranger]

I apologise. You never said it directly. I had incorrectly inferred it from what you wrote.

With regard to JD's posts, I was thinking of number 8:

and number 25:

JD's quotes would appear to be a stretch to fit "there was no value in track based training". Personally I didn't read them at all this way.
I read those quotes as effectively saying there is not as much road riding safety value in track training as many (yourself and dpex) may think - and I agree with JD 100% in that regard.

They are great fun and I enjoy "track based training" whenever I can. I also learn and improve each time I do so, but lfinding the quickest line through castrol is surely of dubious value for road riding. There is no castrol corner on the road, were there I would be on a fucked line for road riding and way exceeding speed limits and safety margins.

[caseye]

We need to get rid of the culture that says "Lets see who can get from A to B the fastest".

It all starts here! Too many NZ riders think the road is their personal track.A track is not a road, on a road you can;'t get it wrong, go wide, come back and do it again.On a road you are most likely dead or injured if you go wide or off( as happens on a road.) P darth, please , have you ever heard a Govt minister, a Politician, a councillor, or a top cop say,"yes training in being a better, smarter, faster better able to to react to situations driver/rider is a good idea????????.I can tell you catagorically the answer to that question is NO. The last thing the Govt or Police want, is drivers/riders who can handle their vehicle well in an emergency, that would require ability, adaptability, speed and agility everyone of these things is total anethema to them.Lowest common denominator is their by line, make everyone go slower, accidents are less serious, road toll is down they're happy.
Katman is right,Stop these types and almost all motorcycle accidents will stop happening, overnight.
Ah! but that can't be right, it's too simple.
Think about this, two riders, different bikes, diffeent ages, different skill sets, they ride for a while they get faster and faster, the lesser skilled one misjufges a corner(sound familiar yet?) doesnt make it round, other guy stops goes back picks up a broken shattered human being.Goes home and parks his bike, In the morning he rides down the road sees another rider ahead of him, speeds up, catches up, rides alongside for a while, goes faster,a bit faster Today it's his turn to make the mistake!
Never for a moment considers that he's going to fall off.Too damnd stupid, arrogant and full of himself and his trackday abilities to ever consider it might happen to him.
This cycle of death and destruction goes on everyday and the common denominator is this.he rides fast, other rides look up to him, they want to be just like him.
The road and the other users on it don't exist just their stupid desire to ride faster than that guy!
It begins and ends right there.
Grow up, get some responsibility, some humility and an apprecaition of what happens when someone comes of and ends up a quivering mass of raw mush and maybe just maybe they could become good sensible considerate riders like many others out there now.
Who grew up learning personal responsibility, respect for their fellow man and an appreciation of the fraility of the human body.

[The Stranger]

It all starts here! Too many NZ riders think the road is their personal track.A track is not a road, on a road you can;'t get it wrong, go wide, come back and do it again.On a road you are most likely dead or injured if you go wide or off( as happens on a road.) P darth, please , have you ever heard a Govt minister, a Politician, a councillor, or a top cop say,"yes training in being a better, smarter, faster better able to to react to situations driver/rider is a good idea????????.I can tell you catagorically the answer to that question is NO. The last thing the Govt or Police want, is drivers/riders who can handle their vehicle well in an emergency, that would require ability, adaptability, speed and agility everyone of these things is total anethema to them.Lowest common denominator is their by line, make everyone go slower, accidents are less serious, road toll is down they're happy.
Katman is right,Stop these types and almost all motorcycle accidents will stop happening, overnight.
Ah! but that can't be right, it's too simple.
Think about this, two riders, different bikes, diffeent ages, different skill sets, they ride for a while they get faster and faster, the lesser skilled one misjufges a corner(sound familiar yet?) doesnt make it round, other guy stops goes back picks up a broken shattered human being.Goes home and parks his bike, In the morning he rides down the road sees another rider ahead of him, speeds up, catches up, rides alongside for a while, goes faster,a bit faster Today it's his turn to make the mistake!
Never for a moment considers that he's going to fall off.Too damnd stupid, arrogant and full of himself and his trackday abilities to ever consider it might happen to him.
This cycle of death and destruction goes on everyday and the common denominator is this.he rides fast, other rides look up to him, they want to be just like him.
The road and the other users on it don't exist just their stupid desire to ride faster than that guy!
It begins and ends right there.
Grow up, get some responsibility, some humility and an apprecaition of what happens when someone comes of and ends up a quivering mass of raw mush and maybe just maybe they could become good sensible considerate riders like many others out there now.
Who grew up learning personal responsibility, respect for their fellow man and an appreciation of the fraility of the human body.


As you are into telling people how they should think and behave I expect you wont mind the same back at ya.
Stop telling me how I should ride and how I should feel about my humility and fellow man and my responsibility.

[Katman]

Stop telling me how I should ride and how I should feel about my humility and fellow man and my responsibility.

Don't take it so personally Noel.

You're starting to sound like Mom, yungatart and chanceyy.

If one can honestly say that something doesn't apply to them, then it probably doesn't apply to them.

[dipshit]

Stop telling me how I should ride and how I should feel about my humility and fellow man and my responsibility.

And here lies a big part of the problem.

When it comes to operating a vehicle on public roads - your frame of mind and attitude play a huge role.

[caseye]

I have told no one how to ride,how to think or behave. I've outlined a scenario, please correct me if I'm wrong in assuming you've either been involved in that exact or similar scenario and lived to ride another day, was this because you were better than the other guy or because you already knew the possible outcome of this sort of behaviour and declined to be caught up in the red mist descending.
I don't mind anyone having differing opinions to my own or others, thats what makes us uniquely different.
Difference should be cherished but surely a united approach to teaching our young people/riders common garden respect for themselves and others isn't a bad thing?

[The Stranger]

Don't take it personally Noel.

You're starting to sound like Mom, yungatart and chanceyy.

If one can honestly say that something doesn't apply to them, then it probably doesn't apply to them.

What a relief that it doesn't apply to me.
I thought he was referring to antics like when I overtook that group of trumpet riders that was (literally) wobbling along SH22 on Saturday and hooned off at a smidgen over the speed limit.
But hey, that's all good.
So who was he referring to?

[george formby]

On going training for the life of the road user. A re-test every 5 years perhaps in/on a basic simulator which will simulate gravel, opening car doors, kid's running out, low sun glare etc. Road users being forced to confont hazards & being educated in the areas where they perform badly would make drivers/ riders far safer & more aware when they hit road. If you can learn to fly a jumbo jet on a simulator, it cannot be to hard to have a few vehicle simulators in the local REAP office.
Expensive I know but what value life & quality of life?

[Katman]

So who was he referring to?

Not me neither.

:eek:

[Little Smurf]

I hate to say it but the aussies have one up on us, they have been making the general public aware of motorcyclists for over 20yrs.

I have to agree here, lived in Oz for 7 years and yes they are good drivers/riders very considerate.



I just read today about a Harley rider named Horse who got taken out by a tourist on the wrong side of the road

I think it's all too easy for tourists to come into our country and hire a car/van/campervan whotut some kind of test/pratical driving course. The accidents where bikes and other vehicles have been hit cause the other driver is on the opposite side of the road all if not the majority could have been prevented.

The tourist has been charged and passport taken off him until his next court appearnace and as it should.

James (Horse) the lad who would give me shit when growing up for liking jap bikes ...... you are going to be missed ..... RIP lad :weep:

Here is the write up http://www.waitomonews.co.nz/issues/2010.01/2010.01.12.WN.pdf

[Motu]

I think it's all too easy for tourists to come into our country and hire a car/van/campervan whotut some kind of test/pratical driving course. The accidents where bikes and other vehicles have been hit cause the other driver is on the opposite side of the road all if not the majority could have been prevented.


I used to hire out cars and motorcycles to tourists - we didn't care what sort of license they had,so long as it was a license.99.9% of damage to our vehicles was caused by Kiwi's.I don't remember any foreiners having an accident in the 3 years I was there....but the .1% is there just incase.

[FJRider]

and it happened because he wasn't paying attention and then messed up his braking

No amount of Goverment input, rider training, or the wearing of all the "right" safety gear, is going to be worth anything ... if the rider is not paying attention to where they are.

The assumption that ALL OTHER MOTORIST'S will stay on the bit of road they are supposed to be on, or not doing anything "you did not expect them to" ... can (and usually does) lead to much grief.

[p.dath]

On going training for the life of the road user. A re-test every 5 years perhaps in/on a basic simulator which will simulate gravel, opening car doors, kid's running out, low sun glare etc. Road users being forced to confont hazards & being educated in the areas where they perform badly would make drivers/ riders far safer & more aware when they hit road. If you can learn to fly a jumbo jet on a simulator, it cannot be to hard to have a few vehicle simulators in the local REAP office.
Expensive I know but what value life & quality of life?

Would you be prepapred to pay $1000 to re-sit your licence every five years in a multi-million dollar simulator?

Make no mistake, if it is expensive, you'll be paying for it.

[Ixion]

What is the point of retests every n years, if the standard required in the test is that of the present licence test - ie trivial.

And if the tests are to be tougher, whether initial licence tests or retests, then you break on the rock of finding testers (and instructers).

I do not have extensive experience of licence testers (I am talking generally here not specifically motorcycle). But such as I have seen, I do not have any confidence in their ability to judge the capabilities of applicants. If the tester is not competent , how can any faith be placed in his pass or fail. Bear in mind, that motorcycle testers do not even have to have a motorcycle licence, and may never have ridden a bike. What credibility can they have?

And by and large , instructors are no better. Some of them should not be trusted on the road themselves , let alone be instructing others (bike instructors are probably a bit of a different story, they usually seem to be enthusiasts )

[Motu]

Would having to sit another more stringent test make me a better rider? I think not.Would having a more elaborate wedding with more meaningful vows make me a better husband and father? No again.The training is in the doing....the learning is in the absorbing.We need to make more absorbent sponges.....

[marty]

So it's OK on the Coro Loop then? That's A to A..... :)

[The Stranger]

I have told no one how to ride,how to think or behave.


"Grow up, get some responsibility, some humility and an apprecaition..."
Certainly sounds like it to me.

[Tink]

typing is now a effort after reading the article about such a cool enthusiatic couple... I won't give up after such a huge effort to start riding.... simple just to keep the thoughts of such wonderful people in my heart... I only hope that the recovery and life of one so loved as Jacqui is one day complete.. its about living like they did... life could be simple... but evolution justifies its not... a friend told me once don't join kiwibiker it will bring to much heartache and grief... he was right... but its also bought friends and focus, ambition, and thought, education... and willingness to teach my girls how to be good riders one day.

[Berries]

I think it's all too easy for tourists to come into our country and hire a car/van/campervan whotut some kind of test/pratical driving course. The accidents where bikes and other vehicles have been hit cause the other driver is on the opposite side of the road all if not the majority could have been prevented.

No disrespect to your mate Horse, but if you allow tourists to drive here it doesn't matter what training you give them you will always have cases of them reverting back to instinct and driving on the wrong side of the road. It is not necessarily a sign that they are poor drivers, it is just a fact of life in these days of international travel and tourism. The only way to prevent this kind of thing happening is to ban foreign drivers, which will never happen.

[YellowDog]

On going training for the life of the road user. A re-test every 5 years perhaps in/on a basic simulator which will simulate gravel, opening car doors, kid's running out, low sun glare etc. Road users being forced to confont hazards & being educated in the areas where they perform badly would make drivers/ riders far safer & more aware when they hit road. If you can learn to fly a jumbo jet on a simulator, it cannot be to hard to have a few vehicle simulators in the local REAP office.
Expensive I know but what value life & quality of life?

That sounds like a pretty good and inexpensive solution.

[Little Smurf]

No disrespect to your mate Horse, but if you allow tourists to drive here it doesn't matter what training you give them you will always have cases of them reverting back to instinct and driving on the wrong side of the road. It is not necessarily a sign that they are poor drivers, it is just a fact of life in these days of international travel and tourism. The only way to prevent this kind of thing happening is to ban foreign drivers, which will never happen.

No it's all good dude your comment is fair.......when something as close to home as this happens we always take the negetive route and blame (as in this case) Mr Tourist, it was wrong place at the wrong time if it was a milli second later or sooner it may never have happened, All fair comments above people don't mind me just venting :)

[PrincessBandit]

"Grow up, get some responsibility, some humility and an apprecaition..."
Certainly sounds like it to me.

Ah but Noel, he didn't say "Noel, grow up, get some responsibility, some humility and an appreciation..."
If the shoe fits, wear it, if it doesn't, then put it aside.

p.s. Katman, that was a lovely double negative back there "not me neither", so what are you trying to say? huh? huh? :msn-wink:

[shrub]

First thing to address is to make people realise that motoring is serious business. Making obviously flawed commercials and putting forward idiotic slogans is probably counter-productive in this regard.

I often compare riding a bike with flying (I did pilot training many years ago), and a pilot in a Cessna faces less risks on a bad day than a road user faces on a good day - you trim your aircraft, set your throttle and point. There is nothing in sight and if there is you have radio contact with air traffic control to warn you well before they come along and the sky doesn't get repaired, yet the licensing requirements for a pilot are incredibly rigorous - after 20 hours and spending enough money to buy a good bike I called it quits, yet I wasn't even half way to getting my PPL.

I have often commented on how driver inattention is arguably the biggest killer, and was ultimately what took Ewan out, and driver inattention is preventable. I know Our Masters Who Art in Wellington would choke on their Lattes, but maybe 100 kmh is a problem? Would people pay attention if they and everyone else was doing 120? Maybe the completely incompetent would chicken out and stay home? And what if we made the roads around town narrower and took away traffic lights etc? You couldn't relax while you were driving which means you'd have to pay attention. Maybe the reason foreign drivers are good and considerate drivers is because they learn to drive in an environment that punishes lapses in concentration and acts of agression?

Maybe we should let the environment be the policeman? How focussed are you on a tight windy road? How likely are you to make a stupid mistake compared to when you're on the motorway?

And the idiotic ads and catchphrases are counterproductive IMHO. "I'm doing the speedlimit, therefore I'm driving safely and can relax".

[yungatart]

I have often commented on how driver inattention is arguably the biggest killer, and was ultimately what took Ewan out, and driver inattention is preventable. I know Our Masters Who Art in Wellington would choke on their Lattes, but maybe 100 kmh is a problem? Would people pay attention if they and everyone else was doing 120?



Interesting that yiou should say that. The plains on the Napier - Taupo Rd has to be one of the most boring bits of road I have ever driven/ridden. At 100 ks one almost falls asleep....it is more pleasant, more stimulating and arguably safer to travel at speeds way in excess of the speed limit along there. Trouble is, it has a heavy police presence too....

[The Stranger]

Ah but Noel, he didn't say "Noel, grow up, get some responsibility, some humility and an appreciation..."
If the shoe fits, wear it, if it doesn't, then put it aside.


The shoe does fit but I shall put it aside anyway.
My point, though obviously I didn't make it adequately, is not about telling me personally what I should or shouldn't do, that's irrelevant, I shall ignore his message anyway and continue to ride as I see fit.
My point is about those that adopt a condescending attitude of I know what's best for you. But then after so many years of a labour government perhaps people have become accustomed to this and stopped thinking for themselves.

[Katman]

The shoe does fit but I shall put it aside anyway.


But who then shall I take to the Ball?

:blink:

[Ixion]

..

I have often commented on how driver inattention is arguably the biggest killer, and was ultimately what took Ewan out, and driver inattention is preventable. I know Our Masters Who Art in Wellington would choke on their Lattes, but maybe 100 kmh is a problem? Would people pay attention if they and everyone else was doing 120?...

For each individual combination of rider, bike, road, and conditions there is a "sweet speed". A speed at which everything comes together. This may be anything from 50kph to 180 kph (for me: others might extend that). Clearly the upper range is rare. At speeds above OR below that sweet spot, one is less safe.

[The Stranger]

But who then shall I take to the Ball?

:blink:

Why the princess of course hillbilly.

[Mikkel]

No disrespect to your mate Horse, but if you allow tourists to drive here it doesn't matter what training you give them you will always have cases of them reverting back to instinct and driving on the wrong side of the road. It is not necessarily a sign that they are poor drivers, it is just a fact of life in these days of international travel and tourism. The only way to prevent this kind of thing happening is to ban foreign drivers, which will never happen.

You could argue that the most efficient way of preventing motorcycle fatalities would be to ban motorcycles... and hopefully that will never happen.

Truth be told, driving on the other side is easy - no matter which way you go. It is easy - as long as there's other traffic around you. The problem in NZ is most likely that there's bugger all traffic outside the cities - which, understandably, is where all the tourists go. So you got the arrows painted on the road around lay-bys, scenic viewpoints and reserves... Yes, tragic accident still happens due to people crossing the centreline - but such accidents doesn't only happen due to tourists driving on the wrong side of the road. However, people seem to be jumping to the conclusion that it's the only thing that could have happened whenever it's mentioned a tourist was involved.

If anything we should be concerned about letting tourists loose in big effing campervans on unfamiliar, windy and in places somewhat poor roads. And that we do this with people who may only ever have driven a compact car around Hamburg. Unfamiliar vehicle, unfamiliar roads and unfamiliar rules - each of these factors provide a negative synergy with the others.


I have often commented on how driver inattention is arguably the biggest killer, and was ultimately what took Ewan out, and driver inattention is preventable. I know Our Masters Who Art in Wellington would choke on their Lattes, but maybe 100 kmh is a problem? Would people pay attention if they and everyone else was doing 120? Maybe the completely incompetent would chicken out and stay home? And what if we made the roads around town narrower and took away traffic lights etc?

Yes, but you have to remember that people consider themselves immortal until otherwise proven. I mean consider India - no one in their right mind would consider getting on a scooter in a place where might makes right and the traffic density is that high.

Raise the speedlimit to 120 km/h and people will just be indifferent and oblivious at 120 km/h instead of 100 km/h. Impose rigorous standards for licensing and make driving without a license "too expensive" to be worth contemplating and maybe you'd see a change. Or even better, actively encourage people to think for themselves and only punish dangerous and anti-social behaviour.


Interesting that yiou should say that. The plains on the Napier - Taupo Rd has to be one of the most boring bits of road I have ever driven/ridden. At 100 ks one almost falls asleep....it is more pleasant, more stimulating and arguably safer to travel at speeds way in excess of the speed limit along there. Trouble is, it has a heavy police presence too....

Of course there is. Because it is a safe place to speed, it's a great place to gather revenue.

[shrub]

If anything we should be concerned about letting tourists loose in big effing campervans on unfamiliar, windy and in places somewhat poor roads. And that we do this with people who may only ever have driven a compact car around Hamburg. Unfamiliar vehicle, unfamiliar roads and unfamiliar rules - each of these factors provide a negative synergy with the others.

What you say makes a lot of sense - I remember talking to the garage owner in Haast and he said he sometimes has to go and collect massive great campervans and drive them back for the simple reason that the driver is terrified and just can't handle the roads and vehicle. Unfortunately the majority stick it out.

Your comment about the factors providing negative synergy was especially interesting and can apply to motorcycling. I have just had an interesting meeting with David Golightly. David is especially concerned about motorcycle safety, partly because it costs his company money when people have an off and mostly because he's a motorcyclist himself. We talked about some of the recent fatalities and serious accidents, and identified that there are a series of risk factors that are common to all accidents and the more of these factors, the greater the risk. They include: new bike, inexperience, tiredness, weather and road conditions, bike etc, and we worked out that if there was a system where people could tally up the risk factors affecting them at that time it might help people identify times of high risk and either not ride or ride accordingly.

[steve_t]

I've not rented a campervan before but don't the have a massive f-off sign on the dash saying "Keep Left!"?

[quickbuck]

I've not rented a campervan before but don't the have a massive f-off sign on the dash saying "Keep Left!"?
Many rentals do now.... BUT there is an even bigger clue.... The wheel right in front of you. This doesn't compute in a brain of habit though.

Now, on a similar topic... Tourist on Motorcycle... Nothing on the bike indicates what side of the road to ride on...

All a bit off topic, as we have established that vehicles on the wrong side of the road have only a small number of accidents compared with other factors.

[caseye]

The shoe does fit but I shall put it aside anyway.
My point, though obviously I didn't make it adequately, is not about telling me personally what I should or shouldn't do, that's irrelevant, I shall ignore his message anyway and continue to ride as I see fit.
My point is about those that adopt a condescending attitude of I know what's best for you. But then after so many years of a labour government perhaps people have become accustomed to this and stopped thinking for themselves.

Hang on a danged blame minute here, I am still here and reading your post with a certain amount of amusement, who is telling who what to do here?I was offering a means by which we could reduce the number of motorcycle accidents drasticaly, all it would require is a minority of NZ's bike riders to acquire some actual personal responsibility, to ride sensibly and safetly,Have I said you must observe the speed limit at all times? have I said you must always give way to cars?No I have not.
Yes my comments are generalised, they have to be, your points of difference are I suspect merely to provoke arguement rather than to find some sort of common ground or heaven forbid agreement on what "could"be done by us, ourselves with little or no cost/expense or drama.
Condesenction is not something I practice or take kindly too, I've voted Labour once or twice in my many years, I'm not somone who allows others to go in front of me if there is danger present, I do speak my mind and I will argue coherently with anyone who wishes to do so for as long as it takes to get a point across.
For instance, it is my considered opinion that if the two riders I mentioned in my last posts scenario were both sensible generally law abiding types, they'd still compete. but the pair of them would arrive at thier destination, not one or none, why because if they both realised the danger of going outside theirs and other road users safety zones there'd be no accompanying accident, no mess to clean up and so it goes on.
Can you give me one good reason why we as bikers and who see the cowboys doing this sort of shit everyday shouldn't be able to say so publically and to try and educate them not to be cowboys and go on killing their friends and innocent motorists?
Just my opinion.

[The Stranger]

Can you give me one good reason why we as bikers and who see the cowboys doing this sort of shit everyday shouldn't be able to say so publically and to try and educate them not to be cowboys and go on killing their friends and innocent motorists?
Just my opinion.


Can you give me one good reason why we as bikers who see people wearing substandard protective gear shouldn't be able to say so publicly and try to educate them not to?

Can you give me one good reason why we as bikers who see people not wearing hi vis vests shouldn't be able to say so publicly and try to educate them?

Can you give me one good reason why politician who see all motorcycles as dangerous simply because they are not shrouded in tin and covered in air bags shouldn't be able to say so publicly and legislate them off the road for their own safety?

In short, no I can't and of course you're welcome to your opinion, and you are welcome to voice it.
Just as I am sure you will no doubt agree that I am welcome to ride fast and anyone else is welcome to try and keep up, or overtake me if they see fit.

[Waxxa]

Rider training: wont happen in large numbers because it is cost prohibitive.

ATGATT: wont happen sufficiently because we are individuals and we make our own decisions

Attitude: you are talking about NZers, difficult to change driving attitude

Tourists: most tourists who come to NZ experience much better road conditions in their home countries and then come here to NZ :no:

Road conditions: This is something we can actually action on as road users. If those parties are held accountable for the conditons of the roads here in NZ (roading contractors etc) then we will actually see a difference in accidents statistics. So lets focus on what we can improve rather than discussions going around in circles.

[caseye]

Ride as fast or as slowly as you feel comfortable with.I'm sure that by now you know your limits and only push them when theres no one else around to be caught up if anything goes wrong, certainly thats how I do it.To do anything else would be counter productive and quickly bring on the scenario I mentioned earlier.
Inability to control a vehicle of whatever type contributes to people dying unnecessarily.
Inattention contributes to people dying unnecessarily.
Mostly though, attitude kills more people than any other single factor, whether it be bikes, cars, trucks or mopeds.
Thats what I am suggesting we should be making some attempt as a group of afected people to change.
Your opinions are as valuable as anyone elses and if change comes of them then that is a good thing.

[shrub]

Rider training: wont happen in large numbers because it is cost prohibitive.

ATGATT: wont happen sufficiently because we are individuals and we make our own decisions

Attitude: you are talking about NZers, difficult to change driving attitude

Road conditions: This is something we can actually action on as road users. If those parties are held accountable for the conditons of the roads here in NZ (roading contractors etc) then we will actually see a difference in accidents statistics. So lets focus on what we can improve rather than discussions going around in circles.

We will never stop motorcycle accidents, but what we can do is reduce them. What if we could increase the number of riders doing advanced training by 20%? And the number of beginners by 50%? And what if we could get more people wearing riding trousers? That alone would have a significant saving. Or introduced safety standards for riding gear so people could choose kit that worked?

And I believe we can change NZers driving attitudes. I work in marketing, and marketing is about changing attitudes - look at how socially unacceptable drinking and driving or even speeding are these day? Once it was a bit of a badge of honour to be a fast driver, now it's very uncool.

Road conditions are a factor, but a bigger factor is teaching people to ride to those conditions or teaching people to keep their speed to a level where they can react and respond to dangerous roads in time and appropriately.

[p.dath]

As you are into telling people how they should think and behave I expect you wont mind the same back at ya.
Stop telling me how I should ride and how I should feel about my humility and fellow man and my responsibility.

You know, I find your attitude almost alarming, especially since you a mentor and helping teach other riders. I didn't get that ("being told what to do") at all from reading the message.

This thread was about a fatality, and shortly afterwards the discussion steared towards that attitudes of riders and how that could be leading to riders dieing. And then we get alarmist posts like yours effectively saying "I'm going to do whatever I want so fuck off". You aggressive attitude merely lend support to those who want to impose more regulation.

When you use a shared public medium, that being a public road, you have to have a certain degree of rules that everyone has to conform to. For example, in NZ you have to wear a crash helmet. We like to think these rules exist to promote the lifespan of the users. I like to think so anyway. I don't know if you accept this, or if you also say "fuck you" to the Government and ride without a helmet. You have to accept being told what to do.

I think, ideally, we all want minimalist Government regulation, so that we are free to make personal choices. However, everytime we have another rider down we tempt the Government into just a little bit more regulation to "limit" what we can do.

Know that when you use the public roads you don't just place yourself at risk, but also other users on the road. And if an accident happens it doesn't just affect those directly involved. It affects their families as well. It affects a lot of people. I think this is one of the main reasons we have regulation. Because so many people are affected.


So perhaps could I encourage you to reflect internally, and adopt a supportive attitude as opposed to the aggressive one displayed. We don't want aggressive attitudes carried onto the road. We don't want new riders entering the system learning aggressive attitudes. Know that you get nothing from a post but what you take away from it. So if you don't like the message, just don't take anything away from it.

As Bob Marley said, don't worry, be happy. And it is so true.


I'll now put on my flame suit, so you can exercise your right of reply. I don't think further discussion in this area will be helpfull, so I'll leave it at this.

[James Deuce]

You've simply filled a huge blank space with a bunch of negative commentary about a rider with whom you haven't ridden. I too subscribe to the "fuck off, I'll do it my way thanks" school of thought, but it doesn't necessarily mean what you think it does.

[Katman]

As Bob Marley said, don't worry, be happy. And it is so true.


Bob Marley just turned in his grave.

[SPman]

I have to agree here, lived in Oz for 7 years and yes they are good drivers/riders very considerate.
Obviously, you have never driven in Perth!
West Australia....like Auckland with more SUV's. 6 riders dead in WA THIS YEAR - 4 at intersections on main roads where vehicles just pulled in front of them! New car drivers have logged instructor time and logged driving time before they get a license and it means squat!

[Mikkel]

Rider training: wont happen in large numbers because it is cost prohibitive.

ATGATT: wont happen sufficiently because we are individuals and we make our own decisions

Attitude: you are talking about NZers, difficult to change driving attitude

Tourists: most tourists who come to NZ experience much better road conditions in their home countries and then come here to NZ :no:

Road conditions: This is something we can actually action on as road users. If those parties are held accountable for the conditons of the roads here in NZ (roading contractors etc) then we will actually see a difference in accidents statistics. So lets focus on what we can improve rather than discussions going around in circles.

Rider training: Is being done large scale in other countries. It is not a question of whether we can afford to do it - it's a question of whether we can afford not to do it.

ATGATT: Indeed, it's somewhat difficult to force people to do anything. You can take steps to motivate people to wear adequate riding gear - goes hand-in-hand with both training and attitude.

Attitude: Attitude changes all the time - directing the change in a positive manner is difficult, yes. Impossible, no! So not an excuse not to try - and try hard too.

Tourists: NZ should be happy as long as they can afford to come here and put some money into the economy. And the roads are not that bad.

Road conditions: I agree something could be done about this. Ensuring the roadworks are properly sign-posted. Get coloured grit that doesn't blend with the normal surface. Just to mention two things.

It's not the road conditions that kill people - it's the mentality of not driving to the conditions that does. Alas, motorists are not being encouraged into thinking for themselves.


You've simply filled a huge blank space with a bunch of negative commentary about a rider with whom you haven't ridden. I too subscribe to the "fuck off, I'll do it my way thanks" school of thought, but it doesn't necessarily mean what you think it does.

You actually read that stuff? :scratch:

[steve_t]

Bob Marley just turned in his grave.

And that Bobby Mcwhatshisface is laughing his head off :laugh:

[jonbuoy]

Maybe some people are always going to be too immature to ride a sportsbike/motorbike on the road hence the number "I'm selling my bike before I kill myself" threads.

[Katman]

Maybe some people are always going to be too immature to ride a sportsbike/motorbike on the road hence the number "I'm selling my bike before I kill myself" threads.

Beyond's going to hate you for that post.

:eek:

[boomer]

We need to get rid of the culture that says "Lets see who can get from A to B the fastest".


You'd have thought everyone would have realised it was me by now.. ffs.. thers only 4 million people in NZ and i've been here 10 yrs...!!!


Slow cunts !

[boomer]

It all starts here! Too many NZ riders think the road is their personal track.A track is not a road, on a road you can;'t get it wrong, go wide, come back and do it again.On a road you are most likely dead or injured if you go wide or off( as happens on a road.) P darth, please , have you ever heard a Govt minister, a Politician, a councillor, or a top cop say,"yes training in being a better, smarter, faster better able to to react to situations driver/rider is a good idea????????.I can tell you catagorically the answer to that question is NO. The last thing the Govt or Police want, is drivers/riders who can handle their vehicle well in an emergency, that would require ability, adaptability, speed and agility everyone of these things is total anethema to them.Lowest common denominator is their by line, make everyone go slower, accidents are less serious, road toll is down they're happy.
Katman is right,Stop these types and almost all motorcycle accidents will stop happening, overnight.
Ah! but that can't be right, it's too simple.
Think about this, two riders, different bikes, diffeent ages, different skill sets, they ride for a while they get faster and faster, the lesser skilled one misjufges a corner(sound familiar yet?) doesnt make it round, other guy stops goes back picks up a broken shattered human being.Goes home and parks his bike, In the morning he rides down the road sees another rider ahead of him, speeds up, catches up, rides alongside for a while, goes faster,a bit faster Today it's his turn to make the mistake!
Never for a moment considers that he's going to fall off.Too damnd stupid, arrogant and full of himself and his trackday abilities to ever consider it might happen to him.
This cycle of death and destruction goes on everyday and the common denominator is this.he rides fast, other rides look up to him, they want to be just like him.
The road and the other users on it don't exist just their stupid desire to ride faster than that guy!
It begins and ends right there.
Grow up, get some responsibility, some humility and an apprecaition of what happens when someone comes of and ends up a quivering mass of raw mush and maybe just maybe they could become good sensible considerate riders like many others out there now.
Who grew up learning personal responsibility, respect for their fellow man and an appreciation of the fraility of the human body.

Some disconnect between what your typing and what you're doing.. your group ride history is fookin abysmal.

i forgot how much fun this place was/is.

I can race along the roads and go wide, have an oh shit moment,think fook that was close; go back and do that corner again cos boy it felt good. Laugh at teh beer stop how i went wide on the same corner i always do...

AND smile at how i'm still riding... and i'm still saying FOOK you and ya nanny state. if i wanna ride fast i will do.. just like if i wanna drive the car in the morning half asleep with a coffee in my lap.


go get a life.

[boomer]

Mostly though, attitude kills more people than any other single factor, whether it be bikes, cars, trucks or mopeds.



I've got a bad attitude and i've never killed any one !!! STFU u moron !

[The Stranger]

You know, I find your attitude almost alarming, especially since you a mentor and helping teach other riders. I didn't get that ("being told what to do") at all from reading the message.

This thread was about a fatality, and shortly afterwards the discussion steared towards that attitudes of riders and how that could be leading to riders dieing. And then we get alarmist posts like yours effectively saying "I'm going to do whatever I want so fuck off". You aggressive attitude merely lend support to those who want to impose more regulation.

When you use a shared public medium, that being a public road, you have to have a certain degree of rules that everyone has to conform to. For example, in NZ you have to wear a crash helmet. We like to think these rules exist to promote the lifespan of the users. I like to think so anyway. I don't know if you accept this, or if you also say "fuck you" to the Government and ride without a helmet. You have to accept being told what to do.

I think, ideally, we all want minimalist Government regulation, so that we are free to make personal choices. However, everytime we have another rider down we tempt the Government into just a little bit more regulation to "limit" what we can do.

Know that when you use the public roads you don't just place yourself at risk, but also other users on the road. And if an accident happens it doesn't just affect those directly involved. It affects their families as well. It affects a lot of people. I think this is one of the main reasons we have regulation. Because so many people are affected.


So perhaps could I encourage you to reflect internally, and adopt a supportive attitude as opposed to the aggressive one displayed. We don't want aggressive attitudes carried onto the road. We don't want new riders entering the system learning aggressive attitudes. Know that you get nothing from a post but what you take away from it. So if you don't like the message, just don't take anything away from it.

As Bob Marley said, don't worry, be happy. And it is so true.


I'll now put on my flame suit, so you can exercise your right of reply. I don't think further discussion in this area will be helpfull, so I'll leave it at this.


The East Germans used the populace at large to help ensure people were thinking the right thoughts. The Chinese Too. Perhaps you are simply in the wrong country or time good citizen.

[boomer]

who gave me this rep..??? "I really hope your family doesn't have to go through the trauma of being visited by the Police to say you died in an accident. Perhaps you could say you haven't died "yet". Please don't be the cause of a rider down thread."

I/we just endured two years fighting cancer.. you think my family aint up for a fight?! get stuffed arse hat.

[bikemike]

Agreed

The poistion is illogical and downright stupid. But, that is their position.

This imbecility colours all road safety in this country. Since it is a Bad Thing for people to be taught (or to learn) how to drive or ride safely, it is necessary to assume that they will crash. Therefore the focus of raod safety is on making the crashes (which are considered inevitable) more survivable. hence, lower speed limits, seat belts , air bags etc. Doesn't work for bikes (doesn't really work for cars, either, but massively unworks for bikes)

I also agree with McJim: and, I'm another incomer who agrees with the general observation that our stats are high and our standards are very low here. That's a correlation that doesn't seem to need too much in depth study.

And apart from Mikkel's observation on the emptiness of our roads, I don't subscribe to the idea of 'NZ roads'.

Also I'd expand on the idea that the minimum driver/rider education and licensing standard is too low. That is, though I support Advanced instruction, that's not where the primary focus should be. The idea that some of this stuff is 'advanced' (and possibly elitist) is one thing that needs to go. Most of what we consider the basic advanced techniques need to be taught to probationers. And, along that road many more need to be allowed to fail. That's politically hard but necessary if we mean business.

The motivation to conform to expectations is very strong, even when we think we are bucking the system we usually aren't. The community around us drive like shit and we have no motivation to up our game to be accepted (and by accepted I also mean being ignored; not picked out for abuse or ridicule).

I'd therefore like to see the standard of Police, Courier, Taxi, Freight drivers all improved. I see all the usual stuff we complain about from these groups as in the general driving population, and ourselves. Inattentive, sloppy driving.

So in old-school talk, The failings are clear, the official attitude to 'advanced' instruction sucks, raise the bar and set a better example.

If I was paying for rider Instruction and I was measured on survival rate, I'd put my money here:

20% handling the bike and road surfaces
70% situational awareness
10% evasive measures
Use of speed? see all of the above

BTW -
Solo on M/C after 3 hours instruction at 16
Solo on Venture self-launching glider after just under 8 hours at 17 (exactly)
Solo in car after over 20 hours instruction - at 19
!! all backwards

[Brian d marge]

Testosterone , not a good thing among the poorly educated

Stephen

[The Stranger]

If I was paying for rider Instruction and I was measured on survival rate, I'd put my money here:

20% handling the bike and road surfaces
70% situational awareness
10% evasive measures
Use of speed? see all of the above



Relating to earlier discussion, what portion of that do you pick up on your track days p.dath?

[p.dath]

Relating to earlier discussion, what portion of that do you pick up on your track days p.dath?

95% Handling the bike
5% road surfaces
0% Situational awareness
0% Evasive measures

I did some research on track and road based training. Check out my thread on an extensive multi-country report that I found:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/116942-Post-licence-Driver-and-Rider-Training
It recommends both track and road based training (they go through the pros and cons of what they found in their research of each). They found the coaching style works best.

[MSTRS]

95% Handling the bike
5% road surfaces
0% Situational awareness
0% Evasive measures

.

What would you like played at your funeral?

[shrub]

95% Handling the bike
5% road surfaces
0% Situational awareness
0% Evasive measures

I did some research on track and road based training. Check out my thread on an extensive multi-country report that I found:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/116942-Post-licence-Driver-and-Rider-Training
It recommends both track and road based training (they go through the pros and cons of what they found in their research of each). They found the coaching style works best.

That's a bloody good article and I'm in the process of printing it out. I thoroughly enjoy track based rider training, and do it as often as I can (in preference to plain old have a go days), but you're right, often little of what I learn improves my ability to ride a bike safely on the Queen's highway. I come away having had a blast and probably a little better at late braking or better able to take a specific corner etc, but none of that counts for anything when Mary Pajero doesn't see me because she's too busy stopping little Tarquin from smearing his organic chocolate on the leather upholstery.

I think there is a lot of value in teaching specific skills on a safe track environment that can be practised in the real world. For example, I learnt some good stuff on a Mainland course at Levels a year or so ago about what to do when things go wrong in a corner, and I have found quiet roads and practised it. A few weeks ago I came round a corner to find a pothole right where I wanted to be and instinctively did the stuff I'd been practicing. I also found myself overcooked in a corner the other day and didn't instinctively do what I knew I should do and nearly went dirtbiking, so since then I've been practicing. I've also been practicing panic braking since I saw Ewan mess that up, and yesterday it rained so I went out and did panic stops in the rain on greasy roads with tyres that are not far from dead. Anyone who is really good at something practices it until they can do it really well instinctively and hopefully when Johnny Commodore pulls out in front of me on a wet and greasy road I'll pull up safely or get around him.

I'm afraid there is a perception with a lot of riders that "skill" means the ability to go really, really fast round corners. I agree it takes a lot of skill to do that and it's a lot of fun - one of the reasons I ride a slow bike is because I like going fast too much and lack self discipline, but too many people focus on that skill at the expense of all others. The other day I was following a guy on a sports bike through some corners and he was riding hard. On right handers his wheels would be just inside the white line as he apexed, only problem was his head was in the other lane, and he did that frequently. I decided to drop back and let him go in the hope that he would slow down now that he didn't have to show that he was faster than the fat old bastard on the retro bike and didn't see him again. He could corner really well and on a track he would have been a star, but he wasn't riding for the road with cars coming the other way, gravel, potholes etc

[Mikkel]

The main benefit of taking your bike to the track is the ability to get confident with the machine in a safe environment.

However, whether that will make you a safer rider or not ultimately comes down as to how you utilise that confidence on the road. If you use it as a reason to go faster than you did before you aren't safer - if you use that new-found confidence to provide a larger safety margin, then you will be a safer rider.

Knee-to-the-deck or front-wheel-waving-at-clouds are not the places you want to be in when shit hits the fan.

[shrub]

The main benefit of taking your bike to the track is the ability to get confident with the machine in a safe environment.

However, whether that will make you a safer rider or not ultimately comes down as to how you utilise that confidence on the road. If you use it as a reason to go faster than you did before you aren't safer - if you use that new-found confidence to provide a larger safety margin, then you will be a safer rider.

Knee-to-the-deck or front-wheel-waving-at-clouds are not the places you want to be in when shit hits the fan.

100% bang on mate.

[bikemike]

That's a bloody good article and I'm in the process of printing it out. I thoroughly enjoy track based rider training, and do it as often as I can (in preference to plain old have a go days), but you're right, often little of what I learn improves my ability to ride a bike safely on the Queen's highway. I come away having had a blast and probably a little better at late braking or better able to take a specific corner etc, but none of that counts for anything when Mary Pajero doesn't see me because she's too busy stopping little Tarquin from smearing his organic chocolate on the leather upholstery.

I think there is a lot of value in teaching specific skills on a safe track environment that can be practised in the real world. For example, I learnt some good stuff on a Mainland course at Levels a year or so ago about what to do when things go wrong in a corner, and I have found quiet roads and practised it. A few weeks ago I came round a corner to find a pothole right where I wanted to be and instinctively did the stuff I'd been practicing. I also found myself overcooked in a corner the other day and didn't instinctively do what I knew I should do and nearly went dirtbiking, so since then I've been practicing. I've also been practicing panic braking since I saw Ewan mess that up, and yesterday it rained so I went out and did panic stops in the rain on greasy roads with tyres that are not far from dead. Anyone who is really good at something practices it until they can do it really well instinctively and hopefully when Johnny Commodore pulls out in front of me on a wet and greasy road I'll pull up safely or get around him.

I'm afraid there is a perception with a lot of riders that "skill" means the ability to go really, really fast round corners. I agree it takes a lot of skill to do that and it's a lot of fun - one of the reasons I ride a slow bike is because I like going fast too much and lack self discipline, but too many people focus on that skill at the expense of all others. The other day I was following a guy on a sports bike through some corners and he was riding hard. On right handers his wheels would be just inside the white line as he apexed, only problem was his head was in the other lane, and he did that frequently. I decided to drop back and let him go in the hope that he would slow down now that he didn't have to show that he was faster than the fat old bastard on the retro bike and didn't see him again. He could corner really well and on a track he would have been a star, but he wasn't riding for the road with cars coming the other way, gravel, potholes etc

Bloody good post! All credit to you for taking the pressure off the guy in front.

I just remembered the Man-on-the-train story, from Angry White Pyjamas. Anyone heard / got it? I can't find it on Google.
IIRC - Basically newly graded Aikidoka finds himself with an opportunity to show his skills, only to be humbled by an old man who new that the best path is to not need and therefore to not use 'those' skills.

Much better to put most effort into staying out of trouble. All the other training for improvement in handling, evasion is all essential, and we should all do it - but it is secondary.

[p.dath]

What would you like played at your funeral?

Well, I think my handling skills are the area that needed the most work, which is why I have mostly done track days. Having said that, I've also used a mentor on-road quite a bit as well. I think they go hand in hand.
I have to admit to being a bit risk adverse. The AMCC ART track days really have been a huge help. Those who go riding with me have noted the big improvement over the last 12 months.

I done quite a bit of evasive measures training already. Some of the NASS sessions were really good for that. The NASS sessions don't tend to be very difficult (at least not at my current level), but when you do something repeatedly for an hour it just re-inforces it more and more. It also helps having someone watch you. It can be very hard to figure out how you can improve only through observing yourself.

I did some study on defensive "driving" course a while ago (based on the AA course), so I don't feel too bad in the situational awareness side.

I'm hoping to do the RRRS course in March, which will work on other areas, just not as focused.

Pretty much, I take up most opportunities available to me for additional training. They all have different strengths and weaknesses.


Haven't planed my funeral. Tossing up ether cremation or donating my body to science. I like the idea of donation better. At least someone else might benefit from any mis-fortune I suffer.

[MSTRS]

Well, I think my handling skills are the area that needed the most work, which is why I have mostly done track days. Having said that, I've also used a mentor on-road quite a bit as well. I think they go hand in hand.
I have to admit to being a bit risk adverse. The AMCC ART track days really have been a huge help. Those who go riding with me have noted the big improvement over the last 12 months.

I done quite a bit of evasive measures training already. Some of the NASS sessions were really good for that. The NASS sessions don't tend to be very difficult (at least not at my current level), but when you do something repeatedly for an hour it just re-inforces it more and more. It also helps having someone watch you. It can be very hard to figure out how you can improve only through observing yourself.

I did some study on defensive "driving" a while ago (based on the AA course), so I don't feel too bad in the situational awareness side.

I'm hoping to do the RRRS course in March, which will work on other areas, just not as focused.

Pretty much, I take up most opportunities available to me for additional training. They all have different strengths and weaknesses.


Haven't planed my funeral. Tossing up ether cremation or donating my body to science. I like the idea of donation better. At least someone else might benefit from any mis-fortune I suffer.

What I was getting at is...riding (esp on the road) is a package deal.
Arguably, situational awareness is the single most important part. I don't care how good your 'handling' skills are, if you take no notice of where you are in your lane and what is going on ALL around you. It's the one you didn't see that gets you.

[Eng_dave]

Testosterone , not a good thing among the poorly educated

Stephen
But unfortunately quite common.

[Katman]

Arguably, situational awareness is the single most important part.

Thought I'd quote it in case anyone missed it the first time.

[caseye]

I'd agree with that, 100% well posted that man.

[Corse1]

:mad:


My big three are:
1. Rider training should be either compulsory or actively supported and encouraged because riding safely is a skill and skills can be learned.
2. The general public should be made aware of the consequences of causing a bike crash in the same way that they have been made aware of the consequences of causing a crash through speed or alcohol.
3. Motorcyclists should be encouraged and even coerced to wear all the gear all the time - should our lid be subject to a WOF in the same way (I think) diving gear is? I am loathe to introduce compulsion, but should we consider making jackets and gloves compulsory? It would certainly save a lot of scooter/commuter riders.

1 did not read all replies but has to be compulsary
2 Yep but generally with a bike crash they do not get hurt so doesn't really hit joe public where it remains in the memory banks.
3 Gear ain't going to save you from a fatal crash with the exception of a decent lid for head injuries. I know like many I've seen my mate in pieces after going under another vehicle.

There is another thread on here regarding group rides and the dangers. You can have all the rider training and all the gear but egos are hard to lose. I ride how I want to ride now and f**k everyone else. Want to comment on how I ride then lets go to the track.
I have a family that lets me indulge my passion even though they have no interest. I know everytime I go out for a ride they think the worst. I owe it to them to be sensible. Shit I'm 47 and I have only just started thinking this way a year and a half after the tears ran from my eyes when my wife met me in Whakatane when my mate died.

Its better to get there in one piece than not at all. There are plenty of well run track days that let you get the boy racer out of you...can't wait to get to Hampton Downes..........
The slower you go the longer the ride and the longer the enjoyment of our two wheeled passion.........
Well thats that rant over!! :mad: :apint:

[Corse1]

:(
Thought I'd quote it in case anyone missed it the first time.


Situational awareness!!

Something high ego testosterone loaded wankers do not have :(

[caseye]

LOL, another rider joins the fray, on you Corse.

[Muppet]

That's a bloody good article and I'm in the process of printing it out. I thoroughly enjoy track based rider training, and do it as often as I can (in preference to plain old have a go days), but you're right, often little of what I learn improves my ability to ride a bike safely on the Queen's highway. I come away having had a blast and probably a little better at late braking or better able to take a specific corner etc, but none of that counts for anything when Mary Pajero doesn't see me because she's too busy stopping little Tarquin from smearing his organic chocolate on the leather upholstery.

I think there is a lot of value in teaching specific skills on a safe track environment that can be practised in the real world. For example, I learnt some good stuff on a Mainland course at Levels a year or so ago about what to do when things go wrong in a corner, and I have found quiet roads and practised it. A few weeks ago I came round a corner to find a pothole right where I wanted to be and instinctively did the stuff I'd been practicing. I also found myself overcooked in a corner the other day and didn't instinctively do what I knew I should do and nearly went dirtbiking, so since then I've been practicing. I've also been practicing panic braking since I saw Ewan mess that up, and yesterday it rained so I went out and did panic stops in the rain on greasy roads with tyres that are not far from dead. Anyone who is really good at something practices it until they can do it really well instinctively and hopefully when Johnny Commodore pulls out in front of me on a wet and greasy road I'll pull up safely or get around him.

I'm afraid there is a perception with a lot of riders that "skill" means the ability to go really, really fast round corners. I agree it takes a lot of skill to do that and it's a lot of fun - one of the reasons I ride a slow bike is because I like going fast too much and lack self discipline, but too many people focus on that skill at the expense of all others. The other day I was following a guy on a sports bike through some corners and he was riding hard. On right handers his wheels would be just inside the white line as he apexed, only problem was his head was in the other lane, and he did that frequently. I decided to drop back and let him go in the hope that he would slow down now that he didn't have to show that he was faster than the fat old bastard on the retro bike and didn't see him again. He could corner really well and on a track he would have been a star, but he wasn't riding for the road with cars coming the other way, gravel, potholes etc

Your threads are excellent , well done, sorry about your friend. We've all fucked up at some time, anyone who says they haven't is full of shit, I ride proffessionally everday and I'm still learning.

[Mikkel]

Situational awareness!!

Something high ego testosterone loaded wankers do not have :(

Plenty of situational awareness I'd wager - but all focused at trying to make their cock look bigger than it is.

[Hotchefnz]

Am surprised that bike gear ie helmets are'nt a W.O.F requirement.
I think most bike riders are safety concerned but am surprised with the idiots who you see riding with no gloves, boots or shonky helmets.
Make it a requirement

[red mermaid]

You can't as a WoF inspection is of the vehicle.

Its left to each persons own judgement to decide what to wear, otherwise it could go to the ridiculous situation of dictating what other/all drivers can wear.

[Herman Jelmet]

The councils, farmers, roading contractors and LTNZ need to be more responsible for the conditions of our roads (pot-holes, cow poos, gravel etc.)[/QUOTE]

I live in a rural community. I see my fair share of shit roads every day. Councils , farmers and roading contractors have never been responsible about the state of our roads, VERY extreme circumstances would be required to make a farmer hose down the cow shit on the roads every morning and evening after milking, and can anyone imagine those lard arsed flat bed truck loaded with gravelly bitumen inhabitants who regularly without warning, dump shovel loads of that shit into pot holes without tamping it down with some sort of vibrating weighty lawnmower ( can't think of the name of the machine-- is it vibrator? ) do a more professional or safe job? Not going to happen unless they all get sacked and invent a machine to do it.As for the councils,, gin laden incontinent has beens are not capable of any sort of rational judgement or decision. Our roads are not going to get better till radical changes take place-- I hope I am proven wrong soon! I just put up with the roads in northland cos thats the way they are, I agree with you waxxa I just don't think highly of the people responsible for the conditions of our roads