A month ago I watched a riding buddy die on the side of the road

**shrub** · 13th January 2010, 09:17

and it happened because he wasn't paying attention and then messed up his braking (on a new bike with insane brakes). I just read today about a Harley rider named Horse who got taken out by a tourist on the wrong side of the road (my sphincter is still rcovering from a similar but non-fatal experience) and behind both of these fatalities are hundreds of people who have been injured, damaged bikes, lost jobs, been put in wheelchairs etc. Bike crashes really suck, and in too many cases are preventable - whether that is by the rider changing the way he rides, other people changing the way they drive or Our Masters changing the way they treat us and the roads we ride on.

On this site there are thousands of motorcyclists, from newbies to bunnies to experts to idiots, and I would say most (if not all) of us have had an off and all of us have had our share of scares. It occurs to me that on this site lie the answers to making sure that guys like Ewan and Horse stay alive - answers that have come from making mistakes, learning from them and getting things right.

So my question is, what 3 things should we as individuals, the industry and Our Masters Who Art in Wellington do to make things safer?

My big three are:
1. Rider training should be either compulsory or actively supported and encouraged because riding safely is a skill and skills can be learned.
2. The general public should be made aware of the consequences of causing a bike crash in the same way that they have been made aware of the consequences of causing a crash through speed or alcohol.
3. Motorcyclists should be encouraged and even coerced to wear all the gear all the time - should our lid be subject to a WOF in the same way (I think) diving gear is? I am loathe to introduce compulsion, but should we consider making jackets and gloves compulsory? It would certainly save a lot of scooter/commuter riders.

**Waxxa** · 13th January 2010, 10:51

rider training will only happen if its compulsory. Very few riders will pay for training (just the way it is).

cagers to be more aware of motorcyclists and bicyclists for sure! This can be done easily through Learners and Restricted stages.

The councils, farmers, roading contractors and LTNZ need to be more responsible for the conditions of our roads (pot-holes, cow poos, gravel etc.)

**Katman** · 13th January 2010, 10:55

We need to get rid of the culture that says "Lets see who can get from A to B the fastest".

**Squiggles** · 13th January 2010, 10:59

Originally Posted by Waxxa

The councils, farmers, roading contractors and LTNZ need to be more responsible for the conditions of our roads (pot-holes, cow poos, gravel etc.)

We also need to be pro-active about the conditions, persuing those parties above when they are below par.

**yungatart** · 13th January 2010, 11:01

It isn't just rider training that needs to be lifted..our whole licensing system needs a good overhaul. It should be much tougher to get your license for any vehicle.
Something like a logged number of hours with a licensed driving/riding instructor in all conditions (weather and road). It would cost a lot more than having old Uncle Joe teach you (his bad habits), but then on the upside, people might actually place a value on their license and work hard at keeping it.
Retesting (practical) every 10 years.
I'm not a fan of making gear compulsory though...I always wear it, I just don't want to be forced to wear it.

**KiwiPhoenix** · 13th January 2010, 11:28

Good thread Shrub!!

As a newbie I have been very lucky that I have such good friends that I can turn too for any advice one of which was Ewan. Not once have I had bad advice from anyone. I think as a newbie the things that have helped me is having the confidence to ask questions, admitting that I don't have a clue about riding and I always wear my gear!!! Even on a hot day, I would rather be safe than sorry.

When I decided to get my licence I signed up for this website and I spent about 6 months surrounding myself with bikes and asking questions, watching maintenance and riding pillion. I haven't been around bikes before so wanted to know as much as I could before starting to ride, done the same with the car.

It is unfortuate that there will always be people who are not aware of riders, idiot riding and crap drivers, we just have to make sure that we keep ourselves as safe as possible. I am under no allusions that as a new rider I am bulletproof, infact I have in my head everytime I ride that it's a question of when I come off, not if!

I believe attitude goes along way to ensuring safety, if you act like an idiot you will crash and possibly take out someone else, if you can keep your head on your shoulders and keep your concentration you should be ok. I feel I am constantly learning about myself and my bike and thats a good thing but I have the confidence to ask questions and question myself. I'm not afraid to show that I am sometimes I am out of my depth.

As for the licence system it wouldn't matter if it was a longer or shorter you will always get the idiots, they would still continue to be pratts and put everyone in danger. I'm 33 years old and I have had my car licence for 14 years and never had a car accident, so when I found out that I was under curfew I laughed, but believe me I understand now why it's there!!! I do joke about it but for me it's such a short time to be under curfew. It's also peace of mind for my partner that I'm at home at a reasonable hour!!!

I have paid to do a track day and it was the best money I have spent, I learnt alot about my bike and also myself. I also have the privledge of being able to ask my friends for advice and putting into practice what I am learning.

I think the key things about riding, in my opinon, is learning as much as you can from friends, from websites, trackdays and also having the balls to admit that you are sometimes out your depth and beable to do something about it, then learning from the mistakes! It's the old saying "you can lead a horse to water" There will always be the ones that think they know it all!

I'm very lucky that the group I ride with have been so supportive and honest with me!

**rapid van cleef** · 13th January 2010, 11:29

rider and driver safety standards/ hazard awerness and general road sense is very poor in nz. license and theory tests are a joke, hence my 'horn' gets a lot of use, sometimes a shake of the head, sometimes an ......'oh shit!' sometimes a continue and ignore. but this needs to be sorted out. this isnt a criticism of the people, merely the system. and if i get it wrong.............an acknowledging wave and an apology.

**James Deuce** · 13th January 2010, 11:30

ATTGATT won't save your life. It is designed to mitigate survivable injuries.

The "Government (tm)" has never been a fan of training drivers and riders and most Traffic Superintendents when pushed will say that they don't support rider or driver training because it promotes an over-confident attitude and crashes happen at higher speeds.

Riders therefore have to take responsibility for improving their own attitude and skills. Plus, every training course I've done has been fun, I've learned something new, and it has freshened my attitude to road riding.

The track day phenomenon has diminished the appeal of road based training and road craft and the concept that it can be fun. People would rather spend money on a one-way closed road system that removes chicken strips and gives them an adrenaline buzz, rather than learn how to avoid that sheep bounding across the road, or how to balance front and rear brake effectively in an emergency stop depending on available grip and space.

What ya gonna do?

**ManDownUnder** · 13th January 2010, 11:37

1) Rider training - prevent solo and rider caused accidents
2) Driver training - prevent non rider caused accidents
3) Safety gear - minimise injury in the event of accidents

And sorry to hear of the hell you went through a month ago - probably still are.

**shrub** · 13th January 2010, 11:43

Originally Posted by Waxxa

rider training will only happen if its compulsory. Very few riders will pay for training (just the way it is).

cagers to be more aware of motorcyclists and bicyclists for sure! This can be done easily through Learners and Restricted stages.

The councils, farmers, roading contractors and LTNZ need to be more responsible for the conditions of our roads (pot-holes, cow poos, gravel etc.)

Good points, thank you, but I think (hope?) that your cynicism regarding motorcyclists and rider training is misplaced. I think most riders want to be better riders, and I have done several courses and continue to do rider training, including going out and practicing braking etc. Having said that, I once read that riding a bike is comparable in skill level to flying a plane, yet nobody would consider getting in a plane without having done a heap of training. Maybe we need to make training part of the licensing process?

As for the awareness aspect - I agree entirely that car drivers need to be taught to be aware. Personally I don't believe that they don't see us, but instead choose (at a subconscious level) not to notice us, something that is well supported by research internationally. If people were aware that they could get killed when they get hit by a bike (and it happens), or that they could not just kill the biker, but end up in prison, we may see a different approach. It's interesting that children are statistically much less likely to get run over than bikes to be pulled out in front of, yet they're smaller than we are. People don't want to hurt children, whereas we are seen as less valuable/fragile.

I think the key lies in social marketing.

**Genestho** · 13th January 2010, 11:45

Originally Posted by shrub

So my question is, what 3 things should we as individuals, the industry and Our Masters Who Art in Wellington do to make things safer?

My big three are:
1. Rider training should be either compulsory or actively supported and encouraged because riding safely is a skill and skills can be learned.
2. The general public should be made aware of the consequences of causing a bike crash in the same way that they have been made aware of the consequences of causing a crash through speed or alcohol.
3. Motorcyclists should be encouraged and even coerced to wear all the gear all the time - should our lid be subject to a WOF in the same way (I think) diving gear is? I am loathe to introduce compulsion, but should we consider making jackets and gloves compulsory? It would certainly save a lot of scooter/commuter riders.

These three issues (and many more) will be addressed via the safer journeys public consultation that was sent out last year.
At the end of the day you can have laws, but if there's no enforcement or respect for laws then that achieves diddly squat.
From what I see Joyce (MOT) is a fairly practical bloke in transport issues, and I expect there will be announcements this year.

BUT the truth is preventing these tragedies, requires social concience and personal attitude shifts. Without these, you'll still get the 'guys' unwilling to learn, unwilling to protect themselves. Unfortunately real and experienced tragedy is often the only way people will learn.

**The Stranger:Me** · 13th January 2010, 11:47

Originally Posted by Waxxa

rider training will only happen if its compulsory. Very few riders will pay for training (just the way it is).

You can compel people to attend, you can't compel people to learn however.

**James Deuce** · 13th January 2010, 11:47

Originally Posted by shrub

Good points, thank you, but I think (hope?) that your cynicism regarding motorcyclists and rider training is misplaced.

No, he's bang on. The ones signing up for training and actively seeking advice are the ones for whom it is less necessary.

**shrub** · 13th January 2010, 11:53

Originally Posted by James Deuce

The track day phenomenon has diminished the appeal of road based training and road craft and the concept that it can be fun. People would rather spend money on a one-way closed road system that removes chicken strips and gives them an adrenaline buzz, rather than learn how to avoid that sheep bounding across the road, or how to balance front and rear brake effectively in an emergency stop depending on available grip and space.

What ya gonna do?

A very good point. As you say track based training is fun and has benefits, but I think it does encourage people to ride faster because they realise just how fast a bike can be ridden. I think the solution is road-based training that isn't naff, or track based training that simulates real life hazards. Many years ago I did a course at Bay Park (on a CB750 SOHC), and a large chunk of it was on the gravel speedway track. We were made to ride fast on gravel and the instructors did shit like throw things in front of us to make us swerve and brake on the gravel. I am now a very confident wet road rider and the skills I picked up have saved my skin many times.

I disagree about ATTGATT - while you're right, primarily reduces survivable injuries, good gear can make the difference between injuries that are survivable and those that aren't - for example the trauma caused by masses of lost skin can put pressure on a weak heart.And obviously good helmets save lives all the time, but bad helmets don't, and a lot of people ride in bad helmets (fit, condition etc).