NZ Motorcycle Safety Council

[shrub]

I think like most motorcyclists, safety has always been at the top of mind, but accidents were something that happened to other people and fatalities were something I read about. Until December when I watched a good man die on the side of the road, then it all became very, very real.

At that point it would have been easy to change the way I rode, and maybe get a bit spooked, but the thing that struck me was that Ewan's death was completely unnecessary. If he had done things differently on the day, and maybe if the road had been designed differently he'd still be alive today and his wife Seona wouldn't have had to suffer the loss of her true love.

About the same time Our Masters Who Art in Wellington were stinging us with increased ACC levies because we ride those howwid and dweadfully dangewous motorbikes and Slippery Nick had (very kindly) agreed to spend around $3m on replicating the Victorian motorcycle safety model - which is impossible with that budget and who said we wanted it anyway?

It dawned on me that there is no organisation in NZ that is solely focussed on motorcycle safety. BRONZ have done a sterling job with the ACC levies and are committed to safety, but their focus is more on activism and lobbying for biker rights (or so I gather). We have groups like the ACC, the NZTA and the Police who are all engaged in developing, implementing and enforcing safety strategies, but it's all very prescriptive - "this is what you should do and we're gonna make you do it". I don't have a problem with their motives, and I am probably more into bike safety than any of them, but I have a problem with being told what's good for me.


I figured that an organisation consisting of (mostly) motorcyclists that worked with and included the ACC, the NZTA, the Police, local government, roading etc would be a good starting point. An organisation that had a strong research dimension, so we know what we're talking about and most importantly an organisation consisting of people who were passionate about bikes and riding the bloody things might just be able to suggest ideas that would work without being unenforceable, ridiculous or just plain flawed. I figured such an organisation might just make our lives safer and easier.

So I asked a few people what they thought, and last Sunday the NZ Motorcycle Safety Council was formed. On our steering committee are trainers (Mike Flowers and Karel Pavich), dealers, bike cops, reps from the ACC, the NZTA and the Christchurch City Council as well as David Golightly (insurance man) and Charley Lamb providing the intellectual grunt. ACC are excited and want to support us, as are the Police and the NZTA, and the Council have made available resources and a staff member and want us to participate in the road safety forums including having input into the roads in Banks Peninsula.

Our first priority is to find out what safety initiatives currently underway and provide a central clearing house where information on what is being done can be recorded and disseminated and we are communicating with the NZTA etc to find out what they're planning to do, what they're doing and what we can do to be a part of the process. We also want to find out what other groups, organisations and individuals in the motorcycle community are doing and how we can support them.

Anything else we should be doing? Any suggestions on what we should do?

[R6_kid]

Anything else we should be doing? Any suggestions on what we should do?

Go Nationwide, and keep on doing what you're doing.

[shrub]

Go Nationwide, and keep on doing what you're doing.

Thanks. Yeah, that is the intention.

[Bounce001]

Good on you for organising this. Definately needed bikers having a say in biker safety.

Please don't "make" us wear hi-viz

[Genestho]

Already there, but by all means approach your local EDIT: Roadsafety and Polce Group, they'd appreciate the inputl ;)

I joined a local group that started up last year consisting of concerned motorcyclists, Dealerships, ACC and NZ Police, it was early days and we that started up for the same reasons, and there are projects underway, where they're at I won't know till next meeting.

I believe there may be something similar in Auckland, but not sure on that one, and I believe that Katman was looking into starting something similar in Taupo, as the budgets and info available are regional :)

[shrub]

Please don't "make" us wear hi-viz

I thought you had to either ride a BMW or a Honda CB250 to wear high viz?

That's one of the reasons we've formed - to avoid well meaning attempts to impose safe practices on us. International research shows that high vis has limited benefit and that there are a great many better things to do. Also every item of research I have read is clear that car driver do see us, they just choose (subconciously) not to change their behaviour. There's a reason 1%ers very rarely get skittled by cars whereas scooters and commuters experience it all the time.

[XP@]

Get a website!
Best is one that can be easily updated by the right peoples.

Also start looking to overseas there is a lot of research done in Europe that does not get much visibility over here.

[shrub]

Already there, but by all means approach your local EDIT: Roadsafety and Polce Group, they'd appreciate the inputl ;)

I joined a local group that started up last year consisting of concerned motorcyclists, Dealerships, ACC and NZ Police, it was early days and we that started up for the same reasons, and there are projects underway, where they're at I won't know till next meeting

That's interesting - we need to communicate and work together to avoid reinventing the wheel. One of our primary objectives is to find out what else is happening out there so we work together towards a common goal rather than all doing our own thing. PM me and I'll get in touch later on - I'm off to a meeting with the police.

[shrub]

Get a website!
Best is one that can be easily updated by the right peoples.

Also start looking to overseas there is a lot of research done in Europe that does not get much visibility over here.

A website is being built even as we speak and you're right, there is a lot of good stuff coming from Europe. Thanks.

[Genestho]

That's interesting - we need to communicate and work together to avoid reinventing the wheel. One of our primary objectives is to find out what else is happening out there so we work together towards a common goal rather than all doing our own thing. PM me and I'll get in touch later on - I'm off to a meeting with the police.
Agreed, everything is regional, as in ACC, info, budgets and Police. No point working on a solution that has a problem in one particular area, where there is none in another, but yes I agree the info should be shared - particularly regarding big generic initiatives, and I have some good people - role models that are keen to give us a hand :)

Good luck with your meeting!!

[Bald Eagle]

Excellent work, Two questions
1) How do I sign up
2) What can BRONZ Wellington do to help / participate.

[red mermaid]

Sounds good, but don't start slagging off and denigrating the Police, ACC, and other organisations (as a prominent member of BRONZ on here is so wont to do), work with them, discuss issues, and maintain your credibility.

[ckai]

So I asked a few people what they thought, and last Sunday the NZ Motorcycle Safety Council was formed. ...

Anything else we should be doing? Any suggestions on what we should do?

Nice work. Suggestions? Don't get greedy and be realistic with proposals. For example, it's one thing to change our roads with better surfaces but realistically you have to prove it will save money or cost the same. Just making "safety" suggestions for the sake of throwing your weight around and keeping in the public eye, isn't going to achieve anything.

It's like what I heard today...the cancer society saying drivers should wear gloves because there's no UV protection from the windscreen!!!

Hopefully you get some changes made :niceone:

[shrub]

Excellent work, Two questions
1) How do I sign up
2) What can BRONZ Wellington do to help / participate.
At this stage my thoughts are that there is unlikely to be general/public membership, but clubs and organisations like BRONZ will have membership, so to be a part of what we're doing join BRONZ (or Ulysses, MNZ, TOMCC etc). The rationale behind that is we don't want to compete with anyone for members/support, but rather want to support clubs and organisations and encourage membership in them.

BRONZ are important to what we're planning, and I will be in touch.


Sounds good, but don't start slagging off and denigrating the Police, ACC, and other organisations (as a prominent member of BRONZ on here is so wont to do), work with them, discuss issues, and maintain your credibility.

Hell no. We want to work with the Police, ACC etc, because we want to be a part of their planning and decision making processes so our issues and interests are sought out and valued. I believe it is time motorcyclists influenced the decisions that affect us.

[shrub]

Nice work. Suggestions? Don't get greedy and be realistic with proposals. For example, it's one thing to change our roads with better surfaces but realistically you have to prove it will save money or cost the same. Just making "safety" suggestions for the sake of throwing your weight around and keeping in the public eye, isn't going to achieve anything.

It's like what I heard today...the cancer society saying drivers should wear gloves because there's no UV protection from the windscreen!!!

Hopefully you get some changes made :niceone:

Thanks, good advice. There's a saying - how do you eat an elephant? Answer - one bite at a time

[Hitcher]

A Motorcycle Safety Council will only work if it's well funded and focuses on worthwhile initiatives like rider training, rather than on silly nonsense such as hi-vis clothing.

Funding for such an organisation will inevitably come from government because bikers themselves won't fund it. And government money inevitably comes with all sorts of compliance costs, dependence and silliness, such as $50 voucher schemes for well-dressed bikers.

[woodyracer]

Id laugh if skiddy was the CEO!! hahahhaha

[Big Dave]

You should talk to BRONZ - come to a meeting maybe. It has a lot of the governance already in place and it sounds like you're running in the same direction..

[Marmoot]

A website is being built even as we speak and you're right, there is a lot of good stuff coming from Europe. Thanks.

Let me know if you need any inputs. I work for a top NZ website consultancy business (advisors, not web developers).
Our specialty is to review businesses' websites and tell what's wrong with them.

[mashman]

Let me know if you need any inputs. I work for a top NZ website consultancy business (advisors, not web developers).
Our specialty is to review businesses' websites and tell what's wrong with them.

giz a job :shifty:

[mashman]

I know this'll get shot down in flames. I care not. We spend shitloads of money each year that offer "training". More often than not the training is only a verbal watch out for this, do that, don't do that and extend middle finger... What i would like to see is a sensible initiative. One that really trains motorcyclists how to ride. Unfortunately to do this it will involve a track, as speed and familiarity with the limits of yourself and the bike you ride are all considerations when riding on the road. Granted the track is not the road, but is by far a better place to practice things such as knowing your limits... how to apex corners and so on... To that end I would suggest that the government fund a safety initiative that involves the building of a track, something along the lines of a Nurburgring... something that isn't over in 2 or 3 minutes, but challenges a rider for about 10 - 15 minutes of varying corner types, potentially surface types, or anything else you would care to try...

I can hear it now. But it costs too much... perhaps? develop a business park around it, use it for skid pan training, use it for corporate functions, use it for whatever you like, just so long as its prime function is to allow instructors the ability to train a student as best he can in the art of handling a motorcycle. Yes and that includes speed (hence the track)!

FLAME ON!!!

[Marmoot]

giz a job :shifty:

Website Psychiatrist is a real job, mate :)
Pays well too!

[shrub]

Rider training is one of our biggest priorities, hence our decision to involve Mike Flowers from Mainland and Karel Pavich. It is my belief that the overwhelming majority of crashes, regardless of who causes them, can be prevented by actions taken (or not taken) by the motorcyclist because riding bikes safely is something that is learned and that (most) crashes are not bad luck.

For example, a few weeks ago I was heading home and following an SUV down a quiet suburban road. The driver slowed right down for no apparent reason, and the logical thing to do would be to mutter something and overtake, but even though car drivers are often a little irrational, they don't just slow down for the sheer hell of it, so I slowed down and dropped back. Sure enough the woman driving did something - she turned right into the driveway she was looking for. If I had overtaken her, she would have been in the wrong, but I would have been in hospital.

ACC have specifically asked us to do some research on what good rider training looks like, and having done a few courses and after about 20 years solid bike ownership I have a few ideas of my own. I have also gained access to quite a lot of research on post license rider training conducted overseas, and it's bloody interesting. It is my opinion that there is a need for track based training so people can practise cornering, braking and evasion in a safe environment, but my experience of track based training days is that it gets too easy to turn it into just another track day. Not that that is all bad...

[dangerous]

Ya know, the thing is no one reason caused Ewans death, what if he had been paying attention, what if the bike he was following had a brake light, what if he reacted diferently, lots of whet if's.
A road cant be blamed for an acco, sinage or lack of can, faulty or lack of safty gear/bike, lack of training etc.. hell its a tricky one.

Hey this is a great idea, I suport it, but it also starts with the rider not the GVT.
Beter training for licencing
beter road sinage
You can increase a riders awearness, but they have to want to improve, but theres sweet fuck all you can do for the avarage cage driver, this is a massive mission ya on Shrub, we should talk.

[T.W.R]

Hey this is a great idea, I suport it, but it also starts with the rider not the GVT.
Beter training for licencing

You can increase a riders awearness, but they have to want to improve.

The Rider is the biggest obsticle of all; Personal attitude, perception, approach of each individual all contribute to how they'll survive out on the roads. You can whip a horse till your arm is falling off, but it'll still do things you don't want it to/or know is wrong; Rider training is great in the fact it increases individuals abilities & application within the learning enviroment of the course...but it's the retention of whats learnt that's the issue. Rider training is a form of manipulation molding the individual into a pre-percieved idea of what should be, it doesn't always work because of the fact your dealing with individuals & individual perception...... retention of what has been taught is upto the individual and as with any learning enviroment only so much info is retained and that's where the breakdown begins as everyone applies what they learn differently. Even some people who have done said courses have still been seen making some of the most dangerous fundemental errors. A perfect student in the classroom doesn't always make it successfully in the real world.

[Katman]

There's a saying - how do you eat an elephant? Answer - one bite at a time

There's another one - Bite off more than you can chew and then chew like fuck.

Good on you for your efforts.

[Quasievil]

Get a NZ Safety standard or minimum specification for Bike gear to wipe "the crap Trademe shit gear" being sold to bikers.

[Katman]

The Rider is the biggest obsticle of all; Personal attitude, perception, approach of each individual all contribute to how they'll survive out on the roads.

Exactly.

We need to lose the attitude that everything else is to blame other than ourselves.

Whether the car driver sees us or not, it's up to us to see the car driver.

[CookMySock]

Too much good stuff to quote, but basically you are shovelling it uphill if you think riders (who need it) are going to turn up voluntarily for training.

The bottom line is, the method by which riders get their licenses has to change. With no initial training and no support, a year down the track all their bad habits are fully ingrained and you won't recover them without ten times the amount of work.

Adopt the French motorcycle training system. No person is allowed on the road on a big road bike without full and complete training and substantial evaluation. It's not cheap, but thats too bad. Crashing isn't cheap either, but everyone accepts that as normal, so they can get over it.

Until the government decides to actually do something about the problem nothing will change. They make too much money from the licensing system right now to consider changing it, and they are putting the price up as we speak, so realistically why do you think they will do something about the "problem" when they make so much cash from it? They are about perpetuating their growth industries and mliking them for cash, just like all their other businesses (police, ACC, etc.) They don't care about people until said people bite them. So bite them.

Flinging small change at "safety" organisations gives the image of "doing something about it", but thats about all, and gives the government breathing space to further ignore the real issue.

Steve

[Okey Dokey]

I can't think of any suggestions, but what you are doing sounds great. Bikers have to be involved and not just accept what others foist upon us.

[Genestho]

Too much good stuff to quote, but basically you are shovelling it uphill if you think riders (who need it) are going to turn up voluntarily for training.

The bottom line is, the method by which riders get their licenses has to change. With no initial training and no support, a year down the track all their bad habits are fully ingrained and you won't recover them without ten times the amount of work.

Adopt the French motorcycle training system. No person is allowed on the road on a big road bike without full and complete training and substantial evaluation. It's not cheap, but thats too bad. Crashing isn't cheap either, but everyone accepts that as normal, so they can get over it.

Until the government decides to actually do something about the problem nothing will change. They make too much money from the licensing system right now to consider changing it, and they are putting the price up as we speak, so realistically why do you think they will do something about the "problem" when they make so much cash from it? They are about perpetuating their growth industries and mliking them for cash, just like all their other businesses (police, ACC, etc.) They don't care about people until said people bite them. So bite them.

Flinging small change at "safety" organisations gives the image of "doing something about it", but thats about all, and gives the government breathing space to further ignore the real issue.

Steve

I'm going to disagree. You've got to be crazy if you think Govt wants to continue the way it's gone, there is so much under microscope right now - even dead people cost 'you' money.
And I can tell you for a fact that ACC want the Motorycling communities input. The community owes it to ourselves, we've buried too many people to not stand up and be responsible for our own safety, pull our sleeves up - get our hands dirty doing it. And demand what is needed.

They didn't seem too keen on endorsing trackdays, but are definately behind training....Good on yer Shrub

[shrub]

Exactly.

We need to lose the attitude that everything else is to blame other than ourselves.

Whether the car driver sees us or not, it's up to us to see the car driver.

I don't know and can't change a thing about what's happening in the head of other road users, therefore I can't predict or change what they do, but I can change what I do. I can cover my brakes and ease the throttle when I see a car coming up to a giveway sign, I can make sure i set my line well to the left of the centre in right hand corners, I can ride where other road users can see me and I can practise my braking so that I stop safely in the shortest distance. All of these things are skills that can be learnt and all of these skills can save a life. That's why training is so important, but first bikers need to accept that our safety is not determined by what other people do; our safety is determined by what we do.

[shrub]

Ya know, the thing is no one reason caused Ewans death, what if he had been paying attention, what if the bike he was following had a brake light, what if he reacted diferently, lots of whet if's.
A road cant be blamed for an acco, sinage or lack of can, faulty or lack of safty gear/bike, lack of training etc.. hell its a tricky one.

Hey this is a great idea, I suport it, but it also starts with the rider not the GVT.
Beter training for licencing
beter road sinage
You can increase a riders awearness, but they have to want to improve, but theres sweet fuck all you can do for the avarage cage driver, this is a massive mission ya on Shrub, we should talk.

There are few crashes where there are one or even two set causes, and from talking to crash investigators and insurance people there are always a cluster of causes. In Ewan's case there were 6 that I can think of - inattention, the other bike's brake light, the road, unfamiliarity with his bike, not braking effectively and not having an escape route. 4 of those were inside his realm of control.

[T.W.R]

Exactly.

We need to lose the attitude that everything else is to blame other than ourselves.

Whether the car driver sees us or not, it's up to us to see the car driver.

We're the masters of our own destiny and no matter what is done nothing is going to change that, it's the nature of the beast that we're the way we are; implimenting the decision is our individual choice alone

[shrub]

We're the masters of our own destiny and no matter what is done nothing is going to change that, it's the nature of the beast that we're the way we are; implimenting the decision is our individual choice alone

I agree, and that's why imposing rules from on high will achieve little, however what can be changed are attitudes and approaches to motorcycling. While we are a rebellious and free spirited bunch (which is why we ride bikes, not drive SUVs), none of us like accidents. It is possible to change attitudes and opinions - it's called marketing, and that's my game, so we need to find a way to effectively market riding safely.

[mashman]

It is my opinion that there is a need for track based training so people can practise cornering, braking and evasion in a safe environment, but my experience of track based training days is that it gets too easy to turn it into just another track day. Not that that is all bad...

Fair enough, but the idea would be to have cars as well as motorbikes both training at the same time, so there's still a chance to crash/consider your riding in amongst real traffic... Have 4 motorcycles to a trainer, all wired up, run them ragged for a few hours, learn what fatigue feels like etc... the list is endless. But it needs to be compulsory. Fuck about, you lose your license... then at the end of the day/s lettem go out and ride around the track if they want... dunno how to make it work, notm thought it through enough... but the alternative if joe bloggs unskilled and learning on the road...

[T.W.R]

I agree, and that's why imposing rules from on high will achieve little, however what can be changed are attitudes and approaches to motorcycling. While we are a rebellious and free spirited bunch (which is why we ride bikes, not drive SUVs), none of us like accidents. It is possible to change attitudes and opinions - it's called marketing, and that's my game, so we need to find a way to effectively market riding safely.

True to a point. It's nothing to do with being rebellious or not it's a the point where a vital choice is to be made it a split second decission which is instinctiual; arming the masses with as much knowledge & awareness as possible will only help those that want to be helped and quite a few instances the hard drilled lesson on what to do can be the wrong choice.
You can't place a motorcyclist in to a specific group, a lot of us use forms of transport that as "motorcyclists" abhor so we're definately not a specific demographic

[shrub]

The problem is getting people to accept they need help. I am told a lot of cruiser riders don't do training because "I ride a cruiser, so I am slow and sedate and don't need any extra skills" and a lot of bike riders think they know it already. I remember following one of my former employers (this is a guy who owns a bike shop and races), and cringing. He rode right on the centreline on right handers with his head and body right bang in the opposing lane, but nobody could tell him how to ride because he was an expert.

I realise that ultimately we will only be able to "help those who want to be helped", but if that is only 20% of all bikers, that is a lot of people and 20% of last year's fatalities is 10 people - let's say we can save 20% of the willing 20% - that's 2 lives and around 60 serious injuries. Worth the effort I feel.

[shrub]

Fair enough, but the idea would be to have cars as well as motorbikes both training at the same time, so there's still a chance to crash/consider your riding in amongst real traffic... Have 4 motorcycles to a trainer, all wired up, run them ragged for a few hours, learn what fatigue feels like etc... the list is endless. But it needs to be compulsory. Fuck about, you lose your license... then at the end of the day/s lettem go out and ride around the track if they want... dunno how to make it work, notm thought it through enough... but the alternative if joe bloggs unskilled and learning on the road...

Interesting thought - combine cars and bikes. Probably too risky, but one of the challenges trainers face is being able to simulate traffic conditions.

[Bytor]

Great idea and good luck with it.
Why not try and get the importers involved not just the dealers, after all it's in their best interests, as it is the dealers, to have motorcycling portrayed as a feasible, rewarding and safe mode of transport within NZ for future generations of transport consumers. The importers would have more capitol to invest than the dealers or maybe they don't give a f**k.

[mashman]

Interesting thought - combine cars and bikes. Probably too risky, but one of the challenges trainers face is being able to simulate traffic conditions.

That's just an idea. The risks are going to be just as great, if maybe somewhat less, than being out on the road. It's not just the inexperienced that are bad drivers after all... so why not combine them both and give each other a taste of what's on the road and how traffic and your vehicle reacts at speed.

True, it'll cost a shitload of money, but there would also be business opportunities to offset that at the same time. It just needs a lot of planning, coordination and unfortunately money! It's not a silver bullet, but who knows, it may save a quite few lives/injuries every year. Say it'll take $10 mill to setup (may well be lots more, but...), ACC said the average motor vehicle accident costs approximately $20 thou... so as long as you have saved 100 injuries a year over a period of 5 years, it'll have paid for itself (then maybe the training could be free and compulsory). And that's not taking into account track days, business rent (balconied businesses overlooking the track), perhaps car dealers, bike dealers, a nightclub, businesses dotted around the edges (could sell their balcony's for when the MotoGP arrives, AF1, Formula 1)... could be a win win if done properly... then again, i may well have banged my head once too many times... People just think too narrow mindedly... bit of time, bit of patience, set of balls... could make a huge difference!

[shrub]

Great idea and good luck with it.
Why not try and get the importers involved not just the dealers, after all it's in their best interests, as it is the dealers, to have motorcycling portrayed as a feasible, rewarding and safe mode of transport within NZ for future generations of transport consumers. The importers would have more capitol to invest than the dealers or maybe they don't give a f**k.

Thanks, and I agree, that's a good strategy. If we can show that motorcycling isn't as dangerous as it's painted it might encourage more people to take it up which means more bikes on the road which means more money... It is my belief that in a year or so we'll get told that levies need to rise again because I reckon they're planning to sell ACC, and part of getting the best price is getting rid of "undesirable" clients, and they will want to essentially tax us off the road. If we can show that our accident rate is dropping because we're approaching rider safety differently, we will have a greater chance of keeping the levies as they will be.

So it's in the industry's best interests to promote safety.

[dangerous]

There are few crashes where there are one or even two set causes, and from talking to crash investigators and insurance people there are always a cluster of causes. In Ewan's case there were 6 that I can think of - inattention, the other bike's brake light, the road, unfamiliarity with his bike, not braking effectively and not having an escape route. 4 of those were inside his realm of control. He had an escape route but failed to use it (asumption) the road has NOTHING to do with it (its very good condition and sinage and view is clear (would like to see beter sinage, like bigger and brighter) maybe add following to close?

TWR
DB
KM
TGW
all good posts, and with input like this we can acheive something. I also agree with compulsary driving and riding lessons, none of this dad teaching little jonny his bad habbits.

Quasi, giz a link to this shit clothing you mention

[shrub]

A good starting point is the license test. Mike Flowers showed me the test for a basic handling skills certificate, and the thought that people could complete that and be deemed capable of riding a sports 250 (or any bike for that matter) in traffic worries me. It's no surprise that in the Crash Accident Statistics database, the mode (the most common) capacity is 250. (now tell me Dr. Smith, how does that equate with pinging over 600cc?)