4t tuning thread [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

woodyracer

1st February 2010, 16:59

I thougt id make up this thread to stop people putting 2 stroke ones off topic,

I thought id start off, im plannng on doing a few things to the cbr, since i took it to manfeild ive fallen in love with its handling so now im keen to get it up in power. Its rather cheap to mod them too, with parts from thailand being good and cheap, Heres a site for cbr125r parts and cbr150 parts which you fxr riders will like.

http://www.aseanmoto.com/main.html

TZ350

1st February 2010, 18:43

Some very trick bits there, first time I have seen a 4-Stroke piston with cutaways in the skirt, very impressed with whats available.

Some theory to help you in putting it all together:-

Power…………………. http://www.bgideas.demon.co.uk/tmanual/Tm_Ch1.pdf
Breathing & Induction.. http://www.bgideas.demon.co.uk/tmanual/Tm_Ch2.pdf
Combustion…………... http://www.bgideas.demon.co.uk/tmanual/Tm_Ch3.pdf
The Exhaust System…. http://www.bgideas.demon.co.uk/tmanual/Tm_Ch4.pdf
Camshafts…………….. http://www.bgideas.demon.co.uk/tmanual/Tm_Ch5.pdf
Ignition Systems……… http://www.bgideas.demon.co.uk/tmanual/Tm_Ch6.pdf
Turbo or Supercharger.. http://www.bgideas.demon.co.uk/tmanual/Tm_Ch7.pdf
Engine Reliability…….. http://www.bgideas.demon.co.uk/tmanual/Tm_Ch8.pdf

Should be some very fast 4-Srokes at Taupo next year.
.

NOID

1st February 2010, 18:46

sweet site dude. itll be good to here what others ar doing to there engines . GO THE 4 STROKES

woodyracer

1st February 2010, 19:19

ordering a camshaft, high compression piston, racing exhaust from thailand, all for $400!!

k14

1st February 2010, 19:25

I took the muffler off my old CBR250 and that was the best performance mod I ever did. Made it sound awesome too, think it must have been worth about 7-8hp

woodyracer

1st February 2010, 21:26

I took the muffler off my old CBR250 and that was the best performance mod I ever did. Made it sound awesome too, think it must have been worth about 7-8hp

that sounds right, got to love grunty 4t's when they have nice a nice pipe

TZ350

1st February 2010, 21:59

Here you go, a handy INTAKE PIPE AND EXHAUST PIPE SIZING CALCULATOR http://dairally.net/daihard/chas/MiscCalculators/DaiPipes.htm now you can properly work out what size exhaust pipe you realy need........nothing like a bit of science to get it right....

SS90

1st February 2010, 22:11

I took the muffler off my old CBR250 and that was the best performance mod I ever did. Made it sound awesome too, think it must have been worth about 7-8hp

Your joking, right?

7-8HP on an IL4 250?

I don't think so!

richban

2nd February 2010, 12:02

Some more handy calculators. http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

Don't get 2 excited about the HP one as it is working on a 170hp per liter. The reality is you have to have something very special to produce more than around 150hp per liter on a single cylinder. But it is possible. The rest have been handy, exhaust and intake especially they are simple to use as well.

Happy engine designing.

saxet

2nd February 2010, 12:23

Here's another link for CBR parts http://www.akunar.com/BORE_KITS_RACE%20HEADS_CRANKSHAFTS.htm

woodyracer

2nd February 2010, 15:05

jsut ordered the parts,for $380!! that is very cheap for a titanium exhaust,racing camshaft,high compression piston

I realy do recomend these people price wise, they are the same parts as all the other sellers on the net but they are quite abit cheaper, also they speak good english.

White trash

2nd February 2010, 15:16

I took the muffler off my old CBR250 and that was the best performance mod I ever did. Made it sound awesome too, think it must have been worth about 7-8hp

You're a fucken shit stirrer Kirk :D

White trash

2nd February 2010, 15:18

Your joking, right?

7-8HP on an IL4 250?

I don't think so!

Do a bit more trawling through the bucket forums to see what this is all about. Fucken funny.

Pretty sure K14 is clued up on what works and what does't performance-wise.......

Skunk

2nd February 2010, 16:00

Pretty sure K14 is clued up on what works and what does't performance-wise...I'm not so sure... His bike is always running on three :lol:

koba

2nd February 2010, 19:24

Some more handy calculators. http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

Don't get 2 excited about the HP one as it is working on a 170hp per liter. The reality is you have to have something very special to produce more than around 150hp per liter on a single cylinder. But it is possible. The rest have been handy, exhaust and intake especially they are simple to use as well.

Happy engine designing.

Haha! Just for shits and giggles I entered my known figures for an RG150 standing 1/4, It said 27 horsepower which is about what they are suposed to dyno at.

ryanf062

2nd February 2010, 19:27

my performance modification for the season is a 13 year old learner rider.

woodyracer

2nd February 2010, 19:35

my performance modification for the season is a 13 year old learner rider.

are yu moving up a class??

Buckets4Me

2nd February 2010, 19:47

Some more handy calculators. http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

Don't get 2 excited about the HP one as it is working on a 170hp per liter. The reality is you have to have something very special to produce more than around 150hp per liter on a single cylinder. But it is possible. The rest have been handy, exhaust and intake especially they are simple to use as well.

Happy engine designing.

so 22 hp at the wheels for a 100cc isn't bad then ????
220 hp/ltr

woodyracer

2nd February 2010, 19:50

so 22 hp at the wheels for a 100cc isn't bad then ????
220 hp/ltr

i dont know anyone that would think 22hp at the wheels is bad for a 100cc........apart form the pocket bike guys....they reaken they are getting 19hp from a 50cc !! :laugh::laugh:---sorry it jsut cracks me up!

Buckets4Me

2nd February 2010, 19:55

i dont know anyone that would think 22hp at the wheels is bad for a 100cc........apart form the pocket bike guys....they reaken they are getting 19hp from a 50cc !! :laugh::laugh:---sorry it jsut cracks me up!

some of the italien ones are getting heaps but not that much 18-19???? (opps thought you said 50hp)

and that would be scarry

Scotty595

2nd February 2010, 20:09

Think some of them get around 12-15HP

Buckets4Me

2nd February 2010, 20:19

Think some of them get around 12-15HP

http://www.pocketracingimports.com.au/PartsDetails.aspx?Id=2
Name: DM GP Factory R 50cc
Description: Race prepared 16.5hp BZM Factory 50cc watr cooled engine + hydraulic brakes and all other options
Extras: Fully optioned

one starting with 16.5 before mods

then you could add this http://www.pocketbikesunlimited.com/images/r-6-stage-pipe.jpg

or the b1
http://www.usapocketbikes.com/blata-origami-b1-pocketrocket/
with a claimed 16+ hp and only 39cc
so add another 10cc and claim it only gets 2hp more

woodyracer

2nd February 2010, 20:42

but thats at the crank....ive been told by one of the minimoto riders his bike does 0-100km/h in 3 seconds.....that dosnt sound right......

richban

2nd February 2010, 20:55

so 22 hp at the wheels for a 100cc isn't bad then ????
220 hp/ltr

We are talking about 4 strokes remember.

woodyracer

2nd February 2010, 21:09

We are talking about 4 strokes remember.

still not bad, what sort of motor?

Brian d marge

2nd February 2010, 21:14

Just been Having a look
Not to bad price wise at all !

Stephen

richban

2nd February 2010, 21:18

still not bad, what sort of motor?

He's talking about 2 strokes!

SS90

2nd February 2010, 22:47

I thougt id make up this thread to stop people putting 2 stroke ones off topic,

]

Teehee, your sure taught us rambling old fools there Max, boy, do we look silly......putting two stroke threads off topic with talk of four strokes......hahhahha, erm, hang on......

SS90

2nd February 2010, 22:53

Do a bit more trawling through the bucket forums to see what this is all about. Fucken funny.

Pretty sure K14 is clued up on what works and what does't performance-wise.......

Erm, I am a little confused, are you saying that Kirk is correct in saying that removing the muffler from a CBR250 will (not only increase power), but, also increase it by 7 to 8 HP.....because I can see at least 2 things wrong with that statement.

I realise that you have a reputation for "shit stirring".........

SS90

3rd February 2010, 02:50

i dont know anyone that would think 22hp at the wheels is bad for a 100cc........apart form the pocket bike guys....they reaken they are getting 19hp from a 50cc !! :laugh::laugh:---sorry it jsut cracks me up!

Don't laugh too hard there Max, Companies like "scooterattack" in Germany are getting upwards of 30PS from 80cc scootermatics............. and they just employed one of Europes top two stroke guys last month, so there is still more to come!:shutup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6bEDncOvwg&feature=PlayList&p=AF59512E31EF3A17&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=64

Actually, this is a better one (and it's more than 2 yeas ago!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuniDugA8VY

SS90

3rd February 2010, 03:26

OK, it is a few years ago (pre rule changes), but "back in the day" 2 valve 125's ruled the tracks down south

I'm #74, Tony Mac on #67 Cam Horgan #23 Eddie #143 Fluffy #100 Russell Bleach #111 Glenn "fiddler" Hayward, and Chris Huddleston (numbers obscured)

4 strokes all the way!

Note the "handmade" header pipe on the Gmobile Max......... you could buy a chinese mig welder and a second hand pipe bender for the dough you are spending...... then you have it all for the future!

Buckets4Me

3rd February 2010, 05:47

thats the same today but they are all fxr's
pitty non could hold a candle to a decent 2 stroke at the bob
apart from some well ridden cbr150 (and that was only just)

they dont seam to learn down south (way south. Think the cold get to them)

koba

3rd February 2010, 06:13

thats the same today but they are all fxr's
pitty non could hold a candle to a decent 2 stroke at the bob
apart from some well ridden cbr150 (and that was only just)

they dont seam to learn down south (way south. Think the cold get to them)

Maybe they just look at the GP results.

White trash

3rd February 2010, 09:19

Erm, I am a little confused, are you saying that Kirk is correct in saying that removing the muffler from a CBR250 will (not only increase power), but, also increase it by 7 to 8 HP.....because I can see at least 2 things wrong with that statement.

I realise that you have a reputation for "shit stirring".........

I'm shit stirring? How so?

K14 very succesfully races buckets, campaigned at the pointy end of the Nationals in 125 GP despite his lankyness and now is holding his own in F3. As I said, he's knows a thing or two about making bikes go quick. I think you may have missed the subtleties.

Look Einstein, anybody that thinks a 250 IL4 is going to gain a 10% power gain by removing the muffler is a fucking idiot. We know that.

Someone who raves about how much better his 4 stroke goes after he pulled the muffler off, does not.

SS90

3rd February 2010, 10:13

I'm shit stirring? How so?

K14 very succesfully races buckets, campaigned at the pointy end of the Nationals in 125 GP despite his lankyness and now is holding his own in F3. As I said, he's knows a thing or two about making bikes go quick. I think you may have missed the subtleties.

I too "raced at the pointy end" of 125's....for 3 straight years even got on the podium a few times....... 250's for a while, C.A.M.S, B.E.A.R.S buckets for even longer ...... as well as many other "credentials" (just to make you aware)

The whole idea is to get these young guys to actually learn what they write, rather than just either "buy there way to the top", or simply repeat verbatim what they gleam off the web.

The latter one really gets my back up actually.

But, just to clarify, are you saying that K14 was being sarcastic when he claimed such a large (actually any) power gain?

I feel this is an important point, because, from what I have seen and heard from the past "big meets" (I can't attend, I live in Europe) there are some serious power deficits between the North Island guys and the South Island guys,(with the advantage going south) yet so much of the "talk" comes from the North, which was the opposite of the way I thought it would be.

I want to encourage these guys to take examples from the bucket racers of 20 years ago, who actually MADE their own stuff, rather than buying it from the internet.

White trash

3rd February 2010, 10:34

We're on the same page then, good stuff :)

To clarify, yes, my good mate K14 would most definitely have been being a sarcastic little prick when he stated the expected horsepower gain from a muffler removal.

As to your point regarding the power sway between the two islands, I know nothing as I'm not involved in the Bucket scene although young Woody has very kindly offered me a rap on his CBR to try it out. However, I would expect that the big reason for the power differential is driven by the fact that the SI guys commonly race on real race tracks, whereas the NI guys dont. Simply put, little bikes on big tracks need big gearing. To pull big gearing the riders are more likely to go looking for more power.

When you say the "talking" comes from the North, I'd say it's due to a couple of protagonists, who are mostly yet to complete puberty and actually know nothing about tuning other than how to start Google up and grab a credit card.

Way I see it, all is in fun and this is the internet. Wether people want to take anyone elses seriously or not is of little consequence, as it's on the track where the bullshit stops.

F5 Dave

3rd February 2010, 10:34

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 10:36

Oh Dave, you're my heeeero!! :love:

White trash

3rd February 2010, 10:38

F5 Dave

3rd February 2010, 10:38

Oh Dave, you're my heeeero!! :love:
See guys? It even works from here!!

+ all gurls like horsies.

yer just jealous jimmy, my HiAce against your Taxi any time laddy

SS90

3rd February 2010, 10:43

F5 Dave

3rd February 2010, 10:52

What? Shovelling horse mess?
See trashy that's how you do it

SS90

3rd February 2010, 10:52

Fuck off you. This is a thread about diesel tuning.

And you live in the NI anyway, so you're all talk and your bikes make no power. SS said so :D

SS90! This is how ya shit stir

That's great! I didn't have the balls to say it, and now you did it for me......are their Mum's fat too?

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 10:53

See guys? It even works from here!!

+ all gurls like horsies.

yer just jealous jimmy, my HiAce against your Taxi any time laddy

In fact I may just go an take one of my bikes out in the hope that it'll destroy itself so that I can ring you for assistance! ;)

You'd come pick me up in *that* van, wouldn't you?!

White trash

3rd February 2010, 10:55

That's great! I didn't have the balls to say it, and now you did it for me......are their Mum's fat too?

We draw the line at talking about each others mums in the NI. There's a little thing called common decency although I hear the Southerners have been seen with the occasional goat from time to time.

F5 Dave

3rd February 2010, 10:55

Shit I'm having trouble keeping a straight face at work, you should read what some people have written in my rep comments, each is worse than the last & I'm in hysterectomyics.

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 10:58

Actually, I had better take the FXR, it is a thread about 4 strokes after all!!

Would it help you if I said GIGGIDY GIGGIDY!! Dave?

F5 Dave

3rd February 2010, 11:19

It always helps when you say GIGGIDY Hels, but I've just remembered that I converted my Van to 2 stroke the night before last by drilling ports with my Black & Decker, -then sealing off the crankcase with RTV, so now it goes Ring-A-Ding-Ding & that's probably a deal breaker I guess.:doh:

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 11:22

It always helps when you say GIGGIDY Hels, but I've just remembered that I converted my Van to 2 stroke the night before last by drilling ports with my Black & Decker & sealing off the crankcase with RTV, so now it goes Ring-A-Ding-Ding & that's probably a deal breaker I guess.

:laugh:

I'll be leaving soon. ...

jasonu

3rd February 2010, 13:44

It always helps when you say GIGGIDY Hels, but I've just remembered that I converted my Van to 2 stroke the night before last by drilling ports with my Black & Decker, -then sealing off the crankcase with RTV, so now it goes Ring-A-Ding-Ding & that's probably a deal breaker I guess.:doh:

That sounds like something the Steadmans might do (and actually get it to work too)

Brian d marge

3rd February 2010, 14:10

Snippidy dippity
I want to encourage these guys to take examples from the bucket racers of 20 years ago, who actually MADE their own stuff, rather than buying it from the internet.

Hear hear

There is SO much potential in that series , with a touch of presentation and a little polish ,, it would be awesome , not for just riders but bike engineers as well ,- remember Pete Benson is a Kiwi ! ( Ive built a bucket bike a million time in my head , I wish I could get over there for a year !)

Stephen

NOID

3rd February 2010, 14:18

your so right Brian D'marge. buckets are made not brought !!! and races are won buy riding well not buying the fastest bike.

who knows anything about these race CDI units for loncins? brand names etc ? i need more power to take my fat ass round Roys quicker !!

F5 Dave

3rd February 2010, 14:35

Think outside the box.
That track is mainly corners & corners slow you down.

try some surreptitious straight lines when no one is watching.

woodyracer

3rd February 2010, 15:12

your so right Brian D'marge. buckets are made not brought !!! and races are won buy riding well not buying the fastest bike.

who knows anything about these race CDI units for loncins? brand names etc ? i need more power to take my fat ass round Roys quicker !!

lets get back on track now!

ive seen them on trade under race cdi
here's one
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Parts-for-sale/Electrics/auction-268804797.htm

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 15:13

I thought that this thread was all about the track? :confused:

woodyracer

3rd February 2010, 15:56

I thought that this thread was all about the track? :confused:

ummm....not realy its about 4t buckets and modding the engines, maybe abit of track on the side

Im loving your signature helen, gets quite funy on the pointless drivel thread.....

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 16:06

ummm....not realy its about 4t buckets and modding the engines, maybe abit of track on the side

Im loving your signature helen, gets quite funy on the pointless drivel thread.....

Oi, this thread aint about my signature! Its about 4t buckets!! :p

;)

woodyracer

3rd February 2010, 16:09

Oi, this thread aint about my signature! Its about 4t buckets!! :p

;)

Yes mam!! :laugh:

F5 Dave

3rd February 2010, 16:24

Oi, this thread aint about my signature! Its about 4t buckets!! :p

;)
40 buckets? That's a big field.

Aladdin & the 40 buckets?

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 16:25

40 buckets? That's a big field.

Aladdin & the 40 buckets?

show a bit of respect will ya. WR started this thread and *he* says its about 4t buckets. So it is! So there! :shake:

F5 Dave

3rd February 2010, 16:36

No yor rite. This covers a bit of 4t bucket action (as well as a little 2t)

here (http://cgi.ebay.com/BOYS-GYMBOREE-BUCKET-HAT-BUG-DISCOVERY-2T-3T-4T-5T-2-5_W0QQitemZ310197783118QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ201001 31?IMSfp=TL100131175010r38075)

woodyracer

3rd February 2010, 16:37

show a bit of respect will ya. WR started this thread and *he* says its about 4t buckets. So it is! So there! :shake:

thanks again for your authority:laugh:

Any way, have any of oyu seen a turbo or supercharger 100cc 4t bucket??, i know they're legal but it havnt seen one yet.

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 16:37

Yes but what about BOO-t's?

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 16:38

thanks again for your authority:laugh:

Any way, have any of oyu seen a turbo or supercharger 100cc 4t bucket??, i know they're legal but it havnt seen one yet.

No, but I think if you just plug something into your standard engine then you should be fine. I suggest a nos cannister or bubble blowing machine.

Kickaha

3rd February 2010, 16:47

pitty non could hold a candle to a decent 2 stroke at the bob

You keep saying that but I don't remeber any two stroke doing that well in the results?

bucketracer

3rd February 2010, 18:08

thanks again for your authority:laugh:

Any way, have any of oyu seen a turbo or supercharger 100cc 4t bucket??, i know they're legal but it havnt seen one yet.

Pictures of one on the ESE thread...

Yow Ling

3rd February 2010, 18:21

thanks again for your authority:laugh:

Any way, have any of oyu seen a turbo or supercharger 100cc 4t bucket??, i know they're legal but it havnt seen one yet.
If they were any good everybody would have them, just like FXR150's

woodyracer

3rd February 2010, 18:31

If they were any good everybody would have them, just like FXR150's

i think most the time people do what is easyest.....like up at mt wellington most people have fxr's because the are cheapish, and they are compeditive, cbr125's are starting to pop up more often now, probualy cos thye look so good ;)

Kickaha

3rd February 2010, 18:38

I too "raced at the pointy end" of 125's....for 3 straight years even got on the podium a few times....... .

Was that before or after you started crippling your competitors?

Kendog

3rd February 2010, 18:56

who knows anything about these race CDI units for loncins? brand names etc ? i need more power to take my fat ass round Roys quicker !!
I have this CDI (http://newmanz.co.nz/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=208)on my Loncin, plus the coil kit (http://newmanz.co.nz/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=206). I didn't really notice a difference, but I am probably not good enough to notice.
I had heard that CDI is prone to fail, so I always had the stock one with me.

Best advice I got for riding with that engine, was to ride 1 gear higher than I was. I had been revving the bike out in corners but not really going fast, the higher gear made for higher corner speed and better feeling pull out of the corners.

TZ350

3rd February 2010, 19:35

I don't remeber any two stroke doing that well in the results?

Your right :weep: but team ESE will learn from its mistakes and are keen to get a bike or two to next years BOB. :2thumbsup great people those mainlanders.

Pumba

3rd February 2010, 19:42

thats the same today but they are all fxr's
pitty non could hold a candle to a decent 2 stroke at the bob
apart from some well ridden cbr150 (and that was only just)

they dont seam to learn down south (way south. Think the cold get to them)

Pictures of one on the ESE thread...

Christ you ESE boys have clearly never heard the saying in order to finish first first you must finish. It doesnt matter if it was an engine failure or a frame failure, or even some idiot forgeting to do up a bolt. A failure is a failure.

So bugger off untill next year when yes you MAY win the BOB and the GP but I guess only time will tell

:bleh: :bleh: :bleh: :bleh: :bleh:

speedpro

3rd February 2010, 19:53

That sounds like something the Steadmans might do (and actually get it to work too)

Jim went the Mk3 zephyr route in his Thames Frightener(Freighter).

Henk

3rd February 2010, 20:01

Look people can we please get back on topic. This thread is supposed to be about mainlanders shagging goats.

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 20:02

Look people can we please get back on topic. This thread is supposed to be about mainlanders shagging goats.

Oh Goa-t?!?!

woodyracer

3rd February 2010, 20:04

Look people can we please get back on topic. This thread is supposed to be about mainlanders shagging goats.

ooook, henk you making any mods to your bike ofr this year?, or is the bike sorted?

Henk

3rd February 2010, 20:04

Oh Goa-t?!?!

Yeah you know, like a sheep with handlebars

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 20:05

Yeah you know, like a sheep with handlebars

Baaaaa Baaaa kinda sounds like a 2t mate. We're talking 4t! :rolleyes:

Henk

3rd February 2010, 20:06

Not sure about mods. Haven't finished putting it together yet. Always plan on leaving it alone and then find something to try. Not neccesarily to make it faster but just to see what happens.

Henk

3rd February 2010, 20:07

That would be a sheep with handlebars and ram air induction then?

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 20:08

That would be a sheep with handlebars and ram air induction then?

With or without a pipe?

woodyracer

3rd February 2010, 20:10

Not sure about mods. Haven't finished putting it together yet. Always plan on leaving it alone and then find something to try. Not neccesarily to make it faster but just to see what happens.

try a new muffler, might get a few more HP, now that your in a-grade maybe wets are an idea??.......i aint buying any tho.....i did good enough in the 2 hour for 50 minutes on slicks so i cant justify the cost....

Henk

3rd February 2010, 20:10

With or without a pipe?

A Meerschaum

Henk

3rd February 2010, 20:11

Not in the A grade yet sunshine. I figure Luke was making up numbers on his stopwatch to freak me out. Not that fast yet.

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 20:12

A Meerschaum

Nah I think more like a hookah!

Henk

3rd February 2010, 20:14

Wouldn't that be outside the rules?

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 20:14

Wouldn't that be outside the rules?

Oh no, we'll put a muffler on it.

Henk

3rd February 2010, 20:17

That will be fine then. If we run it on hash oil we can claim to be environmentaly freindly

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 20:18

That will be fine then. If we run it on hash oil we can claim to be environmentaly freindly

And to make things better for the environment the pipe can go straight to my helmet!

Henk

3rd February 2010, 20:21

And to make things better for the environment the pipe can go straight to my helmet!

Hell no, run it out the back, you'd only ever have to pass anyone once, they'd crash at the next corner.

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 20:22

Hell no, run it out the back, you'd only ever have to pass anyone once, they'd crash at the next corner.

LMAO! Imagine if you got pole position!!

Henk

3rd February 2010, 20:25

Holeshot and hold on :)

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 20:26

Holeshot and hold on :)

Now you're talking!! Who knew bucket racing could be sooo exciting!!!

Henk

3rd February 2010, 20:27

Think we've burbled enough off topic crap yet?

Pumba

3rd February 2010, 20:28

LMAO! Imagine if you got pole position!!

Shit, I would be detuning my bike to make sure I didnt win a damm thing:whistle:

(Yea I know I wouldnt have, I am slow already, blah, blah, blah and all that other shit)

Str8 Jacket

3rd February 2010, 20:28

Think we've burbled enough off topic crap yet?

I think that burbling fits with the topic qute nicely! ;)

Henk

3rd February 2010, 20:30

Shit, I would be detuning my bike to make sure I didnt win a damm thing:whistle:

(Yea I know I wouldnt have, I am slow already, blah, blah, blah and all that other shit)

We'll put you on the team if you like. You can suck start the bike before every race.

Buckets4Me

3rd February 2010, 20:32

I was having a shit day till I read this thread :)
thanks Woody

NOID

4th February 2010, 11:35

I have this CDI (http://newmanz.co.nz/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=208)on my Loncin, plus the coil kit (http://newmanz.co.nz/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=206). I didn't really notice a difference, but I am probably not good enough to notice.
I had heard that CDI is prone to fail, so I always had the stock one with me.

Best advice I got for riding with that engine, was to ride 1 gear higher than I was. I had been revving the bike out in corners but not really going fast, the higher gear made for higher corner speed and better feeling pull out of the corners.

have you done any other mod KENDOG ? i would be intersted to see if there is a HP increase with theses items? has anyone esle used these parts with a more spec"d cam ? im thinking of poping the head off mine and giving it bit of a cam job and plain a bit of the head.

ill run a gear too high this weekend and see how it goes

woodyracer

4th February 2010, 15:23

I was having a shit day till I read this thread :)
thanks Woody

dont mention it,

speedpro

4th February 2010, 20:37

Superchargers have been tried. One was a cutdown blower from a Commer truck, one was a homemade rotary vane type, and the other was a VC160 lawnmower engine being used as a pump. They all ran but all had similar problems with the cushdrive. I only recall hearing the VC160 and the rotary vane one running - what a sweet sound, nice hard response and a real bark from the pipe.

Str8 Jacket

4th February 2010, 20:44

Dear God don't bring rotary's into this thread. Its about 4t buckets for heavens sake! :rolleyes:

Kickaha

4th February 2010, 20:47

and the other was a VC160 lawnmower engine being used as a pump. .

Who did that bike belong to, Johhny B (sidecar racer) said his brother built one like on something like a CT90 engine

F5 Dave

4th February 2010, 20:58

Yeah I remember Pete telling me about it. Said it went about as well as a CT90.

Kendog

5th February 2010, 18:55

have you done any other mod KENDOG ? i would be intersted to see if there is a HP increase with theses items? has anyone esle used these parts with a more spec"d cam ? im thinking of poping the head off mine and giving it bit of a cam job and plain a bit of the head.

ill run a gear too high this weekend and see how it goes
fi5hy is the guy you want to talk to. He is done some work on his Loncin, pretty sure he has done the cam and he tried the CDI as well. He even had both CDI's mounted on the bike so he could quickly swap from the race one (when it died) to the stock one.

woodyracer

5th February 2010, 19:02

someone would make abit of spare cash if they made performance parts for loncins {hint,hint}........as they seem to be good motors.......the only problem i see with them is they have no juice on the big tracks.....

Chinese cdi's do realy look like all they are going to do is increase you "bling factor"..........having them increase your HP is another story......the chinese can be dodgy like that, when i was into pocket bikes i got sold so called "performance" parts but all they were was the stock one with abit of anodised alloy.......

-max

Henk

5th February 2010, 20:06

Shiny doesn't make it faster?

Buckets4Me

5th February 2010, 20:19

Chinese cdi's do realy look like all they are going to do is increase you "bling factor"..........having them increase your HP is another story......the chinese can be dodgy like that, when i was into pocket bikes i got sold so called "performance" parts but all they were was the stock one with abit of anodised alloy.......

-max

are the Chinese into racing these bikes or just selling them ????
and racing parts translates into more sales for them so why not call them racing parts (they race out the door as fast as the green back races in)

where did they develop these racing parts ????
do they even race pocket bikes or fake hondas over in china ???

Yow Ling

5th February 2010, 21:38

someone would make abit of spare cash if they made performance parts for loncins {hint,hint}........as they seem to be good motors.......the only problem i see with them is they have no juice on the big tracks.....

Chinese cdi's do realy look like all they are going to do is increase you "bling factor"..........having them increase your HP is another story......the chinese can be dodgy like that, when i was into pocket bikes i got sold so called "performance" parts but all they were was the stock one with abit of anodised alloy.......

-max

I doubt that anyone would make money from making performance parts for loncins, maybe they would only loose a little bit. You couldnt sell a part to a racer for what it is worth cos most buckateers are broke arsed. or just canny.

NOID

5th February 2010, 22:26

I doubt that anyone would make money from making performance parts for loncins, maybe they would only loose a little bit. You couldnt sell a part to a racer for what it is worth cos most buckateers are broke arsed. or just canny.

totally agree. im a Broke bucket racer. i fix the parts i broke because i cant aford new ones !!!!

NOID

5th February 2010, 22:36

someone would make abit of spare cash if they made performance parts for loncins {hint,hint}........as they seem to be good motors.......the only problem i see with them is they have no juice on the big tracks.....

Chinese cdi's do realy look like all they are going to do is increase you "bling factor"..........having them increase your HP is another story......the chinese can be dodgy like that, when i was into pocket bikes i got sold so called "performance" parts but all they were was the stock one with abit of anodised alloy.......

-max

you have to remember max there a torque engine. with a better cam profile, a head skim and vavle job i would suspect it would be a bit more compedative on a longer track.

loncin engine builders dont get time to build race parts as they probably have to get to there second sweet shop job just to pay the bills. and me and you dont complain coz we get asian goods for $2.95c and would cost 10 fold to make in NZ. (my rant for the day)

if you want bling factor wear some crome grills, that SHIZ IS GANGSTA AS MOFO

woodyracer

5th February 2010, 23:05

Shiny doesn't make it faster?

prehaps........but im not deffinit yet about that one.........

SS90

6th February 2010, 01:44

Wow, Da Spelingg ov da kidz deez dayez iz amayzin ahe!

Not trying to sound like a grammar/spelling NAZI here lads, but I am pretty certain spell check works on all computers, can you please try using it.....this thread has the occasional international reader, and, well, let's just say it looks embarrassing when people who's SECOND language is English point out how terrible it is..... please try harder.....for the sake of us all!

fi5hy

6th February 2010, 07:07

I'll let you know how the loncin 153cc goes after the weekend

Buckets4Me

6th February 2010, 07:58

what are you doing letting them read this thread. You of all people should know better !!!!

Wow, Da kidz deez dayez iz amayzin ahe!

this thread has the occasional international reader, and, well, let's just say it looks embarrassing when people read this thread....for the sake of us all!

dont worry about the spelling in this thread

richban

6th February 2010, 08:25

The latest idea to get a little more power over 3/4 throttle to full throttle. D shape the top of the carb. Will let people know if it makes any diff. Mikuni TM28 194399

Buckets4Me

6th February 2010, 13:23

The latest idea to get a little more power over 3/4 throttle to full throttle. D shape the top of the carb. Will let people know if it makes any diff. Mikuni TM28 194399

now why do that when you can fit a bigger carb and get more air flow all over ?????

also whouldn't you want to make the exit bigger as well ???
otherwise it's just restrickting it later on (spleding cheked not working)

still I can see advantages with throttle responce under 3/4 throttle with a smaller hole

jasonu

6th February 2010, 13:37

now why do that when you can fit a bigger carb and get more air flow all over ?????

also whouldn't you want to make the exit bigger as well ???
otherwise it's just restrickting it later on (spleding cheked not working)

still I can see advantages with throttle responce under 3/4 throttle with a smaller hole

Best of both worlds. Up to 3/4 the carb thinks it is still 28mm ie good response above that it thinks it is closer to 30 letting more juice in. Nothing new though.

TZ350

6th February 2010, 14:33

.

Something to think about..........

more Air inducted per cycle increases torque..........

more Air inducted per unit time increases power......

.

TZ350

6th February 2010, 14:44

.

In setting up a cam the inlet closing point is the most critical..........

.

TZ350

6th February 2010, 20:15

.

As well as valve lift, valve train acceleration and velocity are important design considerations.

http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tildentechnologies.com/Technical/images/LobeLifter.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.tildentechnologies.com/Technical/CamDesign.html&h=332&w=343&sz=4&tbnid=lttcqoTwnADTgM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcamshaft%2Bdesign&hl=en&usg=__Xu_B640jFEiCs9prF3mGvIe9TIw=&ei=ASNtS_ecKI3i7AOGsqj9BQ&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=7&ct=image&ved=0CBsQ9QEwBg

.

richban

6th February 2010, 20:24

now why do that when you can fit a bigger carb and get more air flow all over ?????

Bad throttle response.

I am hoping that it will just open up a little at full throttle. It makes good power as it is, just playing really. I have designed the next engine for the bucket and it will be completely different to this one. Sleeved down and stroked up, short track torque.

TZ350

6th February 2010, 20:30

.

4-Strokes

One.......... 0 - 180 Deg is the Power Stroke
Two...... 180 - 360 Deg is the Exhaust Stroke
Three.....360 - 540 Deg is the Induction Stroke
Four.......540 - 720 Deg is the Compression Stroke

4-Strokes = two revolutions of the crank, or 2 X 360 deg = 720 deg of crank rotation. The cam rotates at half the crankshaft speed.

Exhaust pipe tuning works in the “Over Lap” period just before 360 degrees, also the resonant tuned length of the inlet tract is arranged so a high-pressure pulse arrives at the back of the inlet valve, just as the inlet is opening. This helps in overcoming the inertia of the gas column, which is stationary in the inlet tract and gets it moving again.

The closing point of the inlet valve after 540 degrees is timed to close as the inertial driven flow of the now rapidly moving gas column in the inlet tract is being brought to a stop by the ascending piston and before any backflow occurs, thereby trapping the maximum amount of air in the cylinder. This over filling or supercharging of the cylinder can be quite high 20-25%.

The timing of the closing point of the inlet valve is critical to good performance.......

So when you go to buy that new superduper cam, not only do you have to check piston valve clearances to see if its going to bang the inlet valve into the piston or if its ramp profile is so savage that the exhaust valve will be left floating and get smacked by the piston, or tangled up with the inlet valve as it opens, there are a few timing things to think about too......

.

richban

6th February 2010, 21:23

.

4-Strokes

One.......... 0 - 180 Deg is the Power Stroke
Two...... 180 - 360 Deg is the Exhaust Stroke
Three.....360 - 540 Deg is the Induction Stroke
Four.......540 - 720 Deg is the Compression Stroke

4-Strokes = two revolutions of the crank, or 2 X 360 deg = 720 deg of crank rotation. The cam rotates at half the crankshaft speed.

Exhaust pipe tuning works in the “Over Lap” period just before 360 degrees, also the resonant tuned length of the inlet tract is arranged so a high-pressure pulse arrives at the back of the inlet valve, just as the inlet is opening. This helps in overcoming the inertia of the gas column, which is stationary in the inlet tract and gets it moving again.

The closing point of the inlet valve after 540 degrees is timed to close as the inertial driven flow of the now rapidly moving gas column in the inlet tract is being brought to a stop by the ascending piston and before any backflow occurs, thereby trapping the maximum amount of air in the cylinder. This over filling or supercharging of the cylinder can be quite high 20-25%.

The timing of the closing point of the inlet valve is critical to good performance.......

So when you go to buy that new superduper cam, not only do you have to check piston valve clearances to see if its going to bang the inlet valve into the piston or if its ramp profile is so savage that the exhaust valve will be left floating and get smacked by the piston, or tangled up with the inlet valve as it opens, there are a few timing things to think about too......

.

That's why designing an engine on paper first is the best way to go.

bucketracer

6th February 2010, 22:32

That's why designing an engine on paper first is the best way to go.

Hi Rich, TeeZee, I am not sure 4-stroke theory is the point of this thread, where do we buy hot up bits?

SS90

7th February 2010, 06:03

Now Teezee, get back to your blinged out GP125R...... the time you have spent researching and typing that useful info could have been better spent fiiting Cubic Zarconium plated fork tubes, or ruby clustered triple clamps.

I eagerly await your new dyno graphs!

And Speedpro's actually!

richban

7th February 2010, 08:03

Hi Rich, TeeZee, I am not sure 4-stroke theory is the point of this thread, where do we buy hot up bits?

Yes true, I will find a nice website with lots of shiny expensive stuff and post that soon.

richban

7th February 2010, 08:05

Now Teezee, get back to your blinged out GP125R...... the time you have spent researching and typing that useful info could have been better spent fiiting Cubic Zarconium plated fork tubes, or ruby clustered triple clamps.

I eagerly await your new dyno graphs!

And Speedpro's actually!

Don't listen to him. I am sure there is room for an ESE 4 stroke you know you want to.

richban

7th February 2010, 08:05

Now Teezee, get back to your blinged out GP125R...... the time you have spent researching and typing that useful info could have been better spent fiiting Cubic Zarconium plated fork tubes, or ruby clustered triple clamps.

I eagerly await your new dyno graphs!

And Speedpro's actually!

Don't listen to him. I am sure there is room for an ESE 4 stroke you know you want to.

TZ350

7th February 2010, 08:20

I eagerly await your new dyno graphs! And Speedpro's actually!

The game plan is; my new air filter should arrive next week, then we can take the "Flying Vacuum Cleaner" to MtWelly for Saturdays practice. If we can get it to carburate satisfactorily then the following week its off to the dyno at Johns place with Speedpro to test our bikes, if he hasn’t got sick of waiting and beaten me to it by then.

TZ350

7th February 2010, 08:29

Don't listen to him. I am sure there is room for an ESE 4 stroke you know you want to.

Supercharged 4-Strokes are my first love. When I was an apprentic I worked on a few racing units, Jaguar Ford BDA and BMC, some of which were supercharged. Although I have had a TZ forever, trying my hand at seriously tuning 2-Strokes is relatively new to me.

Yes I love 4-Strokes......:love:......

TZ350

7th February 2010, 08:44

A supercharged Honda would be fun. Cooling would be the big issue but I figure I could sort that....;)

SS90

7th February 2010, 08:53

A supercharged Honda would be fun. Cooling would be the big issue but I figure I could sort that....;)

Oh shit, here we go! :third:

richban

7th February 2010, 09:33

A supercharged Honda would be fun. Cooling would be the big issue but I figure I could sort that....;)

Can I suggest a CBR125 re sleeved. Cooling sorted.

speedpro

7th February 2010, 12:02

Cooling "might" be a concern but in my personal experience it doesn't seem to make much difference how hot a 4-stroke gets. I had a CB360 with a few mods that turned the red paint on the barrel black with heat around the top. My turbo Z1 even after a cooldown lap at Puke still is hot enough to make oil on the head or barrel smoke once you get back to the pits. They both ran fine. I ran Mobil 1 in both.

Buckets4Me

7th February 2010, 13:24

Can I suggest a CBR125 re sleeved. Cooling sorted.

why re sleave it just wack in a 100cc piston :)

bucketracer

7th February 2010, 18:33

why re sleave it just wack in a 100cc piston :)

Yep, wack it in through the spark plug hole! that way you get to adjust the valve clearances at the same time.

SS90

8th February 2010, 12:05

Hey Woodyracer, does the cam you ordered come with any specifications?

TZ350

9th February 2010, 03:09

Lots of handy 4-stroke calculators http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calculations.htm like dynamic compression, camshaft data, and inlet runner size. But be prepared to work in cub in and degrees F so you will need converters for those to.

Temperature converter http://manuelsweb.com/temp.htm

Inch/Centermeter converter http://manuelsweb.com/in_cm.htm

Cub Inch to CC converter http://www.metric-conversion.net/convert_cubic%20inches_cubic%20centimeters.htm

You can use these calculations on a 2-Stroke too if you remember a stroker fires every revolution so passes twice as much air as the same size 4-stroke doing the same rev's and every thing happens in half the time on the stroker so the 4-stroke runner lengths are halved and areas doubled.

Buckets4Me

9th February 2010, 05:51

Hey Woodyracer, does the cam you ordered come with any specifications?

ye 2 big lumps

SS90

9th February 2010, 09:34

let's try not to ruin this thread with childish stuff aye, because, well, really, we all know your dad just looks up stuff, reads it and posts it (but admittedly quite often tests it for himself, which, clearly is a great thing for others to watch), and you and your brother don't even do your own tuning work....(need I go on?)in an ideal world Woodyracer can learn and come up with his own work, constantly belittling him is both un-nesessary and childish, perhaps if you or your brother could come up with something insightful instead of silly replies (kind of like 2 little bullies at a kindergarten who need their ego's pegged down) you could encourage him to learn and post his results here.

Perhaps if you spent more time improving your riding skills your team may stand a chance at getting some tinware, because, despite Teezee's hard work, I still have not heard of any success.....although Teezee himself did actually get third in the GP last year...on a 15HP machine, and f5dave was "waiting for him" to have someone to ride with, (I have raced against plenty of the RG50 crew "back in the day", and beaten them all on a 13HP GN125, along with Cam Horgan who had substantually less power again than me, but still diced with me for the lead every single lap), so I assure you it can be done) so that just goes to show the level of competition, as was proven when some of the south Island boys came up and showed everyone a clean pair of heels.

Before you go off on some childish vendetta, just remember I am only writing the facts.

I hope Woodracer can give us some more information on the stuff he has brought, because if it is any good, he would be well advised to get the cam profiled before he fits it, and with a little research/experience, he may be able to improve on what he has brought.

I worry about the lightweight piston though, so much material removed from the skirt like that is quite risky (on all but very expensive pistons), I am curious as to how much power it all brings.

I also wonder if it will be a considerable advantage to him to remove the injections system, and simply fit a carb of, say, a mid eighties DR200 (flatslide), it will require some rewiring of the loom (to accommodate the loss of sensors), but (from personal experience) it's quite easy.

The big advantage is less weight and the ease you can change the jetting etc with a carb.

It will rev out faster with a flatslide too....the EFI system is for pollution levels, not power (on this sort of machine)

bucketracer

9th February 2010, 10:58

let's try not to ruin this thread with childish stuff aye, because, well, really, we all know your dad just looks up stuff, reads it and posts it (but admittedly quite often tests it for himself, which, clearly is a great thing for others to watch)........I have raced against plenty of the RG50 crew "back in the day", and beaten them all on a 13HP GN125

Yes you are quite right, :o Dad has already said something to us about discouraging Woody..........

Clearly Dad understands a lot more than he writes, and posts excerpts and links that he finds, because they articulate a point, he would like to make, better than he can, or has the time too.

Some of his ideas are quite original, and you have been privileged to see the thinking behind them.

And something you could learn from, TeeZee doesn't need to tell people how good he is or was he just lets his work do the talking for him.

NOID

9th February 2010, 11:31

[/QUOTE] I also wonder if it will be a considerable advantage to him to remove the injections system, and simply fit a carb of, say, a mid eighties DR200 (flatslide), it will require some rewiring of the loom (to accommodate the loss of sensors), but (from personal experience) it's quite easy.

The big advantage is less weight and the ease you can change the jetting etc with a carb.

It will rev out faster with a flatslide too....the EFI system is for pollution levels, not power (on this sort of machine)[/QUOTE]

would he not be better to leave the EFI and find a piggy back / tunable ECU ? even reflash the existing. i have no idea ithe gear is out there for this kind of bike, but it does exist. then he could download basic map setup found on the net and then adjust it with laptop .... i know this sounds way to advanced/flash for bucket racing.

Buckets4Me

9th February 2010, 17:37

let's try not to ruin this thread with childish stuff aye, because, well, really, we all know your dad just looks up stuff, reads it and posts it (but admittedly quite often tests it for himself, which, clearly is a great thing for others to watch), and you and your brother don't even do your own tuning work....(need I go on?)in an ideal world Woodyracer can learn and come up with his own work, constantly belittling him is both un-nesessary and childish, perhaps if you or your brother could come up with something insightful instead of silly replies (kind of like 2 little bullies at a kindergarten who need their ego's pegged down) you could encourage him to learn and post his results here.

Perhaps if you spent more time improving your riding skills your team may stand a chance at getting some tinware, because, despite Teezee's hard work, I still have not heard of any success.....although Teezee himself did actually get third in the GP last year...on a 15HP machine, and f5dave was "waiting for him" to have someone to ride with, (I have raced against plenty of the RG50 crew "back in the day", and beaten them all on a 13HP GN125, along with Cam Horgan who had substantually less power again than me, but still diced with me for the lead every single lap), so I assure you it can be done) so that just goes to show the level of competition, as was proven when some of the south Island boys came up and showed everyone a clean pair of heels.

Before you go off on some childish vendetta, just remember I am only writing the facts.

I hope Woodracer can give us some more information on the stuff he has brought, because if it is any good, he would be well advised to get the cam profiled before he fits it, and with a little research/experience, he may be able to improve on what he has brought.

I worry about the lightweight piston though, so much material removed from the skirt like that is quite risky (on all but very expensive pistons), I am curious as to how much power it all brings.

I also wonder if it will be a considerable advantage to him to remove the injections system, and simply fit a carb of, say, a mid eighties DR200 (flatslide), it will require some rewiring of the loom (to accommodate the loss of sensors), but (from personal experience) it's quite easy.

The big advantage is less weight and the ease you can change the jetting etc with a carb.

It will rev out faster with a flatslide too....the EFI system is for pollution levels, not power (on this sort of machine)

HA ha thats rich coming from you
childish indead

you couldn't go one sentance without having a stab at someone :)

SS90

9th February 2010, 21:08

would he not be better to leave the EFI and find a piggy back / tunable ECU ? even reflash the existing. i have no idea ithe gear is out there for this kind of bike, but it does exist. then he could download basic map setup found on the net and then adjust it with laptop .... i know this sounds way to advanced/flash for bucket racing.

Yea, for sure, I think piggy back systems are around $NZ450, and it would soon start to become a money hole, with, in my experience, no, or even less advantages than simply converting to a carb.

Carbs are plentiful, easy to tune (well, mostly) and by comparison, cheap. Even one carb off a bank of 4, (off, say a mid eighties GSX-R-750 for example) could be used.

I#m not saying "this is the best way to do it", but I think, in my experience, it will be the best dollar for dollar tuning he could do.

Systems like the one on Woodyracers bike are designed for low emissions opposed to high horsepower, and lack the complexities required to make power at the same time.

As an example, there are plenty of FXR150's that put out more than 20PS (and these are air cooled, and admittedly 25cc's bigger, oh, and D.O.H.C), but, they are simply carbed.

Granted, with the lesser spec of the Honda engine (the water cooling also is only to keep it at the correct temperature required to pass E4 rules, opposed to allowing higher compression ratios, and the higher power you can achieve with this) more than 20PS is unlikely (but perhaps not impossible...... I remember some VERY fast S.O.H.C cam CB/XL125's "back in the day", so, that sort of power is clearly obtainable.

richban

9th February 2010, 21:10

The latest idea to get a little more power over 3/4 throttle to full throttle. D shape the top of the carb. Will let people know if it makes any diff. Mikuni TM28 194399

Just finished rebuilding the carb all fitted up and ready to go. I will post results after some testing. Need to order some more main jets, now running a 540 hex head main. Just under 2mm. The standard engine was running a 280.

SS90

9th February 2010, 21:15

Just finished rebuilding the carb all fitted up and ready to go. I will post results after some testing. Need to order some more main jets, now running a 540 hex head main. Just under 2mm. The standard engine was running a 280.

Erm, I don't think that's correct..... "more than 2mm" for a main on an FXR150?

Have a quick search on the web to find out how much fuel that will flow in a minute...... I don't think an FXR150 can do that.......... ready to learn though!

Pumba

9th February 2010, 21:24

........Even one carb off a bank of 4, (off, say a mid eighties GSX-R-750 for example) could be used........

Hey thats my idea, infact the very carbs you are talking about are sitting in the shed ready to go, must get round to fitting that one day.

richban

9th February 2010, 21:26

Erm, I don't think that's correct..... "more than 2mm" for a main on an FXR150?

Have a quick search on the web to find out how much fuel that will flow in a minute...... I don't think an FXR150 can do that.......... ready to learn though!

Yeh can't find anything. I have been playing with the carb and jetting for about 6 months and this is where its at. I was plug chopping it at Manfield and it had a nice full turn of colour after a good 30 seconds of full throttle running. I had it on the dyno but that was a wast of time as it had a manifold leak that didn't get found. Its not your average FXR engine.

TZ350

9th February 2010, 21:54

I was plug chopping it at Manfield and it had a nice full turn of colour after a good 30 seconds of full throttle running.

Hi Rich, A 70's TZ with 34mm carbs run 320 or so hex head mains. A 540 main jet is so big it suggests something else is metering the fuel at full throttle. Have you tried a run with no main jet, it should bog on full throttle but if it rev's out the needle/jet combo is to small and is controling the mixture at WOT, not the main jet or there is another restriction like the float needle/seat or tap/filter, dangerous stuff.

Or it could be your carb is so big that there is not much air velocity induced vacuum and you need a realy big jet to provide sufficent area for the reduced vacuum to draw fuel from.

All sorts of info on tuning carbs here:- http://www.sudco.com/mikuni.html

SS90

9th February 2010, 22:14

The hex head jets your carb uses are numbered in terms of "bulk flow", at home I think I have a list somewhere explaining it all clearly, when I get home tonight I will see if I can explain clearly.

SS90

10th February 2010, 04:48

I was going to scan the sheet I have, then thought I would just type in a few lines of the text to see if it was on line, low and behold it was..... some wording has been changed to show the guy did the tests himself, but the basics of the information is what I have here........ (Don't worry that it is written by a two stroker.....the concepts regarding the flow rates of the jets in comparison to their number are applicable to whatever engine you like, 2 or 4 stroke

http://rd500lc.free.fr/technics/jet_size_fr.htm

Richban, after reading the article, you may well see how and why I believe your current main jet is too big.....look at it as a %age increase over the original...........:sweatdrop

I also believe the following attachment will aid you in your quest......

When I am having trouble setting up a carb, I like to mark out the slide position on the throttle tube (1/4 1/2 3/4 1) so I can better see where I am with my slide position in relation to RPM.

Also, while it is far from scientific, when I am setting up an engine with a carb that has the hex jet system, and I am unsure where to start, I simply use a comparison to a carb on a similar engine, that uses the mm numbering system.

Basically, I mean, just consider the numbering system of the hex system as DOUBLE the .mm system

Nowm, I know this is in no way scientific, but it is a good starting point.

For example,
I know that (xxx engine, with blah blah exhaust, and a Dellorto carb uses a 145 mainjet.

If I simply change carbs, to, say a Mikuni that has the bulk flow system, I will start the dyno using a 290 hex jet (double the .mm size)

This is a good "ball park" figure.

sure, I will more often than not have to go slightly leaner, but it is normally quite close.

Using this "system", your 540 would equal a 270 (2.70mm) .mm system main jet.

I'll put it this way, a 42 PS Honda RS125, running a well designed pressurised airbox, achieving over 200km/h runs about a 210 mainjet (2.10mm), (but more often than that less....180, or maybe 190 (1.8, or 1.9mm), I really don't think your FXR150 is going to need that much fuel!

Experience tells me on an engine like yours, I would start at around a 120 main (using the "rule of half" equals 240 in the hex system, which, ironically is where you started!)

Plenty of us have fooled ourselves into thinking we have created an engine than nothing short of fuel supplies rivaling the atlantic ocean would suffice, only to find that, in the end, only 2 sizes bigger mains where required.......... or even not at all.....:crybaby:

By the way, a few years ago, I too was fooled into thinking I needed to go to 200 mains in a 450cc engine, turned out the needle tapers where wrong....even fooled the lambda sensor! in the end, after getting that right, the mains ended up at 128, up from 125:third:

TZ350

10th February 2010, 05:46

Hi Rich

From Wickipedia

"The carburetor works on Bernoulli's principle: the faster air moves, the lower its static pressure, and the higher its dynamic pressure. The throttle (accelerator) linkage does not directly control the flow of liquid fuel. Instead, it actuates carburetor mechanisms which meter the flow of air being pulled into the engine. The speed of this flow, and therefore its pressure, determines the amount of fuel drawn into the airstream." From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carburetor

Having thought about it, it could be your 520 jet is now the right size. A carb works by having a narrower section (venture) in the throttle bore where the main jet is. Your carb should be slightly smaller in the middle than the ends.

As pressure times area of the main jet determines how much fuel is discharged, in having "D" slotted the carb you could have reduced the venture effect to the point where you need the area of a really big main jet. Its all about hydraulics.

The problem with a reduced signal at the jets, is you get a wishy washy response when you open the throttle and the engine won’t respond well to a big handful.

If this is the problem you could try making the engine side of the carb bigger. You could rework the carb so the round part of the bore tapers out on the engine side, to recover some of the lost venture effect.

fi5hy

10th February 2010, 07:15

Buy a Loncin Rich!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

SS90

10th February 2010, 07:27

Hi Rich

From Wickipedia

The problem with a reduced signal at the jets, is you get a wishy washy response when you open the throttle and the engine won’t respond well to a big handful.

If this is the problem you could try making the engine side of the carb bigger. You could rework the carb so the round part of the bore tapers out on the engine side, to recover some of the lost venture effect.

Quite.

Erm, I think the best way to explain it Richban, is, ah, (don't take this the wrong way), but, you may well have upset your carb with your mods, that, as Teezee has pointed out, has given you the symptom of a reduced signal at the jets.

I subscribe to this theory, as, well, there ain't no way in hell you need a main jet that big, and the increasing of the mainjet size, is simply masking the problem,

Basically, I don't have a chart that goes up that big....it really is methanol sized..... so I can't tell you how much fuel per minute that baby flows, (you can work it ouot if need be) but, er, let's just say it's likely that if your carb was working correctly, and the mainjet was flowing to it's full capacity, then, er, on a full tank, you will get about 15 laps of Manfield!

Basically, the carb is not working correctly to be able to draw enough fuel out of the main.......... because if it was, you would be using about a liter a minute!

OK, maybe a little less!

richban

10th February 2010, 08:10

ok ok yes yes no no. Well I know where you are coming from. The thing is, it is all so tunable. Change one thing and it responds correctly ie raise the needle, richer at 3/4. It does seem a big hole and I have taken the main out as suggested and it did not work over about 1/2 throttle. Could it just be the difference between a bleed type needle jet and a primary? Will one setup flow more than the other? Mr Miknui says the carb will work nice for the hp range its in so thats not an issue. Now it has a completely new carb on it, I will test each part of the carbs operation as much as pos to see if there are any unpredictable results. I have seen this carb offered as a upgrade for CRF150's I will try find the spec.

I always mark the throttle when tuning so we will see.

I would think more Niagara falls that an ocean.

And shut up Fish, you're just scared. Andrew must have told you how crazy fast the bike is, he is quaking in his boots. And we all know I would have won the GP if he didn't push me off. Yes thats right Adlam, pushed! That is why you were so desperate to find the video evidence after the race and destroy it. And the look of concern when I got back from the hospital. Concern of a friend, or the guilty look of a saboteur. ha. Number one plate indeed.

fi5hy

10th February 2010, 16:18

:jerry::jerry::corn::corn::motu::motu: bring it on big boy;)

NOID

10th February 2010, 20:17

go fi5hy on the loncin !!!

Str8 Jacket

10th February 2010, 20:18

go fi5hy on the loncin !!!

Who's Fi5hy? :confused:

woodyracer

10th February 2010, 20:52

go fi5hy on the loncin !!!

wats this loncin you speak of?, sounds slow....:p

cbr's are taking over.....eveyone else forget about it :whistle:

richban

11th February 2010, 20:34

Using this "system", your 540 would equal a 270 (2.70mm) .mm system main jet.

Thats not actually correct. A 540 hex head main has a 1.93mm hole.

richban

11th February 2010, 21:01

Quite.

Basically, I don't have a chart that goes up that big....it really is methanol sized..... so I can't tell you how much fuel per minute that baby flows, (you can work it ouot if need be) but, er, let's just say it's likely that if your carb was working correctly, and the mainjet was flowing to it's full capacity, then, er, on a full tank, you will get about 15 laps of Manfield!

Basically, the carb is not working correctly to be able to draw enough fuel out of the main.......... because if it was, you would be using about a liter a minute!

OK, maybe a little less!

You are actually to to far off. 10 laps of manfield used about half a tank. And thats pretty much full throttle none stop.

I had a quick run up the road with the new carb for the first time. It went great but the lean problem off full throttle that I fixed with with raising the needle was back. Then I remembered the 3mm bell-mouth extension on the carb. I ripped it off and back to normal yee ha. More volume in the carb now so intake length may need to be shorter. I have a 4 different needles to test so after the weekend I should have it really sorted. As far as main jet size goes I will see what happens after the normal setup process. I did run one of these carbs on a 190cc Et4 vespa and it ran a 460 main, setup on the dyno buy Craig at motormart he knows his shit. I am not to worried as the performance can't be faulted. (Yet) But will keep an eye on things.

SS90

11th February 2010, 22:19

Thats not actually correct. A 540 hex head main has a 1.93mm hole.

Like I say, it's not perfect and very "ball park"

But, I am interested to see where you end up!

Think of it this way, you have (after modifying your carb throat), increased you mainjet size, by almost 100%, does that mean your engine, on full throttle needs 100% more fuel (and, is actually getting it)

I believe that is not true, and the bigger mainjet is masking the fault, albeit successfully from the sound of it!

I don't believe that it is possible for this big jet to be providing all the fuel that it can!

I'm curious, did it make noticebly more power after the mods?

richban

12th February 2010, 06:32

I'm curious, did it make noticebly more power after the mods?

latest carb mods no not yet. Will let you know after some proper testing this weekend. Plug has gone from full turn of colour on the base ring to 3/4 turn a little leaner full, throttle chop.

All mods put together about 30% rear wheel hp.

bucketracer

20th February 2010, 22:55

well, really, we all know your dad just looks up stuff, reads it and posts it (but admittedly quite often tests it for himself, which, clearly is a great thing for others to watch)

And now we know that Dad does more than test other peoples ideas he also applies what he reads to develop his own ideas, ideas that have stumped other people before, like making a working plenum chamber. He also posts all the good things he finds and shares his knowledge.

richban

22nd February 2010, 20:46

latest carb mods no not yet. Will let you know after some proper testing this weekend. Plug has gone from full turn of colour on the base ring to 3/4 turn a little leaner full, throttle chop..

Well after the weekend racing and testing I have fixed the back firing of full throttle. As suspected, it was to lean on the needle. After a couple of needle changes everything came together. Still running a large jet 2mm. The main thing I learnt is before you go messing with the carb internals make sure the intake is not messing with your engine. Pod filter not enough volume, Trumpets no good to much length, open carb good. For my engine engine and carb that is. Airbox untested properly. The needle in at the mo is the one I started with! All the 3/4 throttle problems were intake related.

richban

19th March 2010, 21:36

Anyone trying to make a 4 stroke go fast?

I am thinking of going a bit mad on an FXR engine . Options are. Short stroke mega rev bomb or a long stroke torque monster. I like the idea of the stroking it up coz it may last longer (lower revs less stress??). Looking for 24rwh on the cheap can it be done??????????

Kickaha

19th March 2010, 21:51

Anyone trying to make a 4 stroke go fast?

I am thinking of going a bit mad on an FXR engine . Options are. Short stroke mega rev bomb or a long stroke torque monster. I like the idea of the stroking it up coz it may last longer (lower revs less stress??). Looking for 24rwh on the cheap can it be done??????????

If you go long stoke work out what your piston speed will be as it higher than a shorter stroke at the same revs

richban

19th March 2010, 22:02

If you go long stoke work out what your piston speed will be as it higher than a shorter stroke at the same revs

Does it matter? I am thinking this would be a short track engine. more torque through mid range.

fi5hy

19th March 2010, 22:20

buy a fuckin
Loncin rich and get it over with

richban

19th March 2010, 23:16

buy a fuckin
Loncin rich and get it over with

Not far from the truth. What I would end up with would be a 4 valve version of a loncin.

speedpro

20th March 2010, 10:50

Reports would indicate that a major fly-in-the-ointment is the sub-standard conrod. Why not just sort out a good one and tune from there. They seem like good engines apart from those rods which restrict the revs you can safely use. The man from Kelford cams will be able to help you going by Taupo at Christmas.

gatch

20th March 2010, 11:27

Anyone trying to make a 4 stroke go fast?

I am thinking of going a bit mad on an FXR engine . Options are. Short stroke mega rev bomb or a long stroke torque monster. I like the idea of the stroking it up coz it may last longer (lower revs less stress??). Looking for 24rwh on the cheap can it be done??????????

Problem too with a long stroke motor, if it is too long a stroke, the conrod will hit the bottom of the cylinder skirt.. Also your displacement will be way over if the bore stays the same. Though no doubt you know that.

I like the idea of a shorter stroke motor, BUt then you wold need a new barre as there wouldn't be enough meat to cut through to make much of a difference..

richban

20th March 2010, 11:34

Reports would indicate that a major fly-in-the-ointment is the sub-standard conrod. Why not just sort out a good one and tune from there. They seem like good engines apart from those rods which restrict the revs you can safely use. The man from Kelford cams will be able to help you going by Taupo at Christmas.

Yeh not sure if the rods are god or bad. When I can afford a new CDI I was planning to raise the limiter to 13500rpm. The engine I have at the mo makes power nicely to the limiter now. I am sure max hp is above that but I may be asking for trouble at the high revs. Mr Kelford is my bro. Very handy. He was very impressed with the buckets at Taupo. He has sold quite a few hot FXR cams down your way. We have been talking about doing something to the other engine for a while. Now I have the first edition working good, its time to start dreaming of version 2.

Kickaha

20th March 2010, 11:42

I like the idea of a shorter stroke motor, BUt then you would need a new barrel

Or a longer rod

gatch

20th March 2010, 11:57

Or a longer rod

Bigger bore barrel to get the displacement back to 150cc I should have said..

richban

20th March 2010, 14:03

Bigger bore barrel to get the displacement back to 150cc I should have said..

Nah re sleeve back to standard 60mm. Then stroked longer buy 1.5mm takes it two 156cc I think will have to check that. Then machine the top of the piston flat for compression. Well that was the plan a while ago. Also well its apart lighten the crank a little or a lot. Standard valves, better cams, same old carb setup. job done ish.

gatch

20th March 2010, 14:39

Nah re sleeve back to standard 60mm. Then stroked longer buy 1.5mm takes it two 156cc I think will have to check that. Then machine the top of the piston flat for compression. Well that was the plan a while ago. Also well its apart lighten the crank a little or a lot. Standard valves, better cams, same old carb setup. job done ish.

Put some knife edges on the crank..

I'm looking at buying a loncin later in the year. Will leave it standard for a while, then perhaps buy a second one and hotrod the shit out of it..

Cam, higher comp, port match, carb, MAYBE a short stroke project. Hell I'd stay working at my shitty workshop just to do it..

Blackflagged

22nd March 2010, 09:53

Yeh not sure if the rods are god or bad. When I can afford a new CDI I was planning to raise the limiter to 13500rpm. The engine I have at the mo makes power nicely to the limiter now. I am sure max hp is above that but I may be asking for trouble at the high revs. Mr Kelford is my bro. Very handy. He was very impressed with the buckets at Taupo. He has sold quite a few hot FXR cams down your way. We have been talking about doing something to the other engine for a while. Now I have the first edition working good, its time to start dreaming of version 2.

Do the CDI`s come with an adjustable rev limiter? I think there unlimited(well most aftermarket) hence the rod problems.Anyone know of a cheap, say scooter aftermarket rev limiter?

richban

22nd March 2010, 19:44

Do the CDI`s come with an adjustable rev limiter?

These do http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm

NOID

22nd March 2010, 20:09

[QUOTE=richban; Pod filter not enough volume, Trumpets no good to much length, open carb good. For my engine engine and carb that is. Airbox untested properly. .[/QUOTE]

I have been running my loncin with nothing but carb since fish told me that they run better like this. this might be true but you need to have an airbox or something to stop the wind pissing round with your intake air. i had a strong head wind at taupo last week and im pritty sure it was "sucking" the air from around my carb so it wasnt getting the same velocity into the carb as i normally would . I was getting a a large cough/backfire when heading into the wind more than like due to running rich.

i would reconmend making a trumpet thats quiet short but has a large entry dia. and then creating a semi sealed airbox that doesnt alow your intake air to be disturbed much. .

my 2c

richban

22nd March 2010, 21:20

I have been running my loncin with nothing but carb since fish told me that they run better like this. this might be true but you need to have an airbox or something to stop the wind pissing round with your intake air. i had a strong head wind at taupo last week and im pritty sure it was "sucking" the air from around my carb so it wasnt getting the same velocity into the carb as i normally would . I was getting a a large cough/backfire when heading into the wind more than like due to running rich.

i would reconmend making a trumpet thats quiet short but has a large entry dia. and then creating a semi sealed airbox that doesnt alow your intake air to be disturbed much. .

my 2c

I put the plastic container back on the carb on sunday and it made a massive difference smooth power and top end was way better. Until I get around to making a proper air box the 3 dollar 1 liter tupperware container is the business. I melted the bottom and pressed it onto the carb the other end is open its about 90mm in diameter. Must be just enough to stop the turbulence. Oh I don't have the vege strainer bit in anymore

Bren_chch

22nd March 2010, 21:23

I can imagine bucket racers having tupperware parties now!

It actually looks quite hightech! :)

Much better then the 2 litre coke bottle i was going to use!

Kickaha

22nd March 2010, 21:26

I can imagine bucket racers having tupperware parties now!

Saw a bigger version as a sidecar airbox on a GSXR1000 2 years ago, several Karts used to use them as boxes to hold the electrics, Tupperware rocks!

richban

22nd March 2010, 21:35

I can imagine bucket racers having tupperware parties now!

It actually looks quite hightech! :)

Much better then the 2 litre coke bottle i was going to use!

This is how it started out. It was making a very cool noise / resonance sort of vibe. At easter I will put my camera mic right next to it and see what happens.

F5 Dave

23rd March 2010, 08:27

I have been running my loncin with nothing but carb since fish told me that they run better like this. this might be true but you need to have an airbox or something to stop the wind pissing round with your intake air. i had a strong head wind at taupo last week and im pritty sure it was "sucking" the air from around my carb so it wasnt getting the same velocity into the carb as i normally would . I was getting a a large cough/backfire when heading into the wind more than like due to running rich.

i would reconmend making a trumpet thats quiet short but has a large entry dia. and then creating a semi sealed airbox that doesnt alow your intake air to be disturbed much. .

my 2c

Hard to say, I suspect the strong headwind was putting you under more load, but sometimes it can have an effect. Experimentation is king. I made an airbox which attached onto the carb & my 50 hated it. I also stuffed a munty fan blowing crossways over the open carb mouth. Didn't make diddle squat difference on the dyno. I now use a still air airbox that contains the carb, more as a means of keeping stones out, but try not to duct hot air into it.

bucketracer

23rd March 2010, 20:59

Ok, just toying with the idea, a supercharged Honda 100 ( std bore is 99cc) for F4.

Now the rules don't say the supercharger has to be driven by the same motor that powers the bike.

So the supercharger could be spun using an electric motor and battery or a weed eater motor or even two squirrels in a cage.

Looking at TeZe's and Chambers FZR frames here at work it looks like there is plenty of room to mount a remote blower in the area the passenger would have sat.

Has any one else tried a remote blower on a bucket?

SS90

23rd March 2010, 22:30

Ok, just toying with the idea, a supercharged Honda 100 ( std bore is 99cc) for F4.

Now the rules don't say the supercharger has to be driven by the same motor that powers the bike.

So the supercharger could be spun using an electric motor and battery or a weed eater motor or even two squirrels in a cage.

Looking at TeZe's and Chambers FZR frames here at work it looks like there is plenty of room to mount a remote blower in the area the passenger would have sat.

Has any one else tried a remote blower on a bucket?

What's going to happen when you go from full opened throttle to close throttle at the end of the straight, and your squirrels/ weed eater motor are still spinning flat out?

Your closed throttle won't slow your engine down with the blower maxed out, even if you have some type of clutch, the time delay between the clutch freewheeling, and the blower slowing down will be quite considerable, in terms of engine speed anyway.

bucketracer

24th March 2010, 05:14

What's going to happen when you go from full opened throttle to close throttle at the end of the straight, and your squirrels/ weed eater motor are still spinning flat out?

Your closed throttle won't slow your engine down with the blower maxed out,

Your not thinking and have run off at the mouth again..............

Now a turbo car engine does not have any problems slowing down quickly when the throttle is closed.

The plan is a carb or injected blow through system.

Buckets4Me

24th March 2010, 05:39

What's going to happen when you go from full opened throttle to close throttle at the end of the straight, and your squirrels/ weed eater motor are still spinning flat out?

Your closed throttle won't slow your engine down with the blower maxed out, even if you have some type of clutch, the time delay between the clutch freewheeling, and the blower slowing down will be quite considerable, in terms of engine speed anyway.

you are not a boy racer are you
thats what the big ass LOUD blow off valve is for

opens and lets all the air out with a bigh wooooshhh (anyoung all the old folks at the same time)

Big bling if he can get it to work (dosent have to be fast either. just go woosh and he will have a new following )

Kickaha

24th March 2010, 05:52

Your not thinking and have run off at the mouth again..............

It was you who wasn't thinking, you were talking about using a weedeater or electric motor to drive the supercharger the question he asked was

What's going to happen when you go from full opened throttle to close throttle at the end of the straight, and your squirrels/ weed eater motor are still spinning flat out?

So how will you regulate your electric/weedeater motor to work off the bike throttle as well so that doesn't happen?

bucketracer

24th March 2010, 05:54

you are not a boy racer are you
thats what the big ass LOUD blow off valve is for

There it is..........the answer and bling too...........

bucketracer

24th March 2010, 05:56

It was you who wasn't thinking, you were talking about using a weedeater or electric motor to drive the supercharger the question he asked was

So how will you regulate your electric/weedeater motor to work off the bike throttle as well so that doesn't happen?

Wrong........you have even quoted him incorrectly, that wasn't the question he asked, you need to go back and read what he actually said and then think about the answers for a bit.......

bucketracer

24th March 2010, 06:02

So how will you regulate your electric/weedeater motor to work off the bike throttle as well so that doesn't happen?

Its not necessary.......

The supercharger/blower whatever can run hard out all the time.

Check out how a supercharged "blow through system" works.

Or just take a good look under the bonnet of a turbo car and you will see what I mean..............

SS90

24th March 2010, 06:24

Its not necessary.......

The supercharger/blower whatever can run hard out all the time.

Check out how a "blow through system" works and you will see what I mean.

Or just take a good look under the bonnet of a turbo car.............

Don't go pissing your panties.

Kiakaha understood my question, what is ambiguous about it?

Are you sure that the weedeater/hampster powered blower can run "faltout" all the time?, and simply regulate boost via a blowoff valve?

You are forgetting that this is a carbed engine.

Unless you use one of Chambers spare FZR250 shock springs as a slide spring, that slide won't come down in time, blow off valve or not.

SS90

24th March 2010, 06:27

Your not thinking and have run off at the mouth again..............

Now a turbo car engine does not have any problems slowing down quickly when the throttle is closed.

What car has a supercharger powered by a secondary power source?

Kickaha

24th March 2010, 06:29

you need to go back and read what he actually said and then think about the answers for a bit.......

Thougth about it, got it (I think)

Supercharger will supply constant boost no matter what the engine revs, blow off valve will vent under closed throttle

Wont that make the transition back to open throttle rather abrupt as you will have full boost as soon as the throttle is even slightly open or would the blow off valve regulate that?

I just wonder whether it might be a bit on/off with not much in between?

bucketracer

24th March 2010, 06:32

You are forgetting that this is a carbed engine.

Your just blurting again...........do you actually know how a blow through system works? can you explain it to us and how you think it wouldn't work in this situation.......bet you can't.....

bucketracer

24th March 2010, 06:36

What car has a supercharger powered by a secondary power source?

Can't you think of something original for yourself, why does it have to be a car?

bucketracer

24th March 2010, 06:41

Thougth about it, got it (I think)

Supercharger will supply constant boost no matter what the engine revs, blow off valve will vent under closed throttle

Wont that make the transition back to open throttle rather abrupt as you will have full boost as soon as the throttle is even slightly open or would the blow off valve regulate that?

I just wonder whether it might be a bit on/off with not much in between?

I think your concerns are valid......

After work tonight I will see what can be found on the net about blow through systems......

SS90

24th March 2010, 07:09

I think your concerns are valid......

After work tonight I will see what can be found on the net about blow through systems......

Bwahahahahahahhaha!

SS90

24th March 2010, 07:10

Can't you think of something original for yourself, why does it have to be a car?

You are the one who brought up references to cars.

OK, let's go for it, you explain (in your own words) how a blow through supercharger works, how you will fit it to a 99cc four stroke engine, and, how you can have it running at max rpm for the whole time.

CookMySock

24th March 2010, 07:20

What's going to happen when you go from full opened throttle to close throttle at the end of the straight, and your squirrels/ weed eater motor are still spinning flat out?

Your closed throttle won't slow your engine down with the blower maxed out, even if you have some type of clutch, the time delay between the clutch freewheeling, and the blower slowing down will be quite considerable, in terms of engine speed anyway.I am very surprised to hear you say this.

From full revs and full throttle, when the throttle butterfly closes manifold pressure will drop and the (centrifugal) compressor moves from the choke region of its map to the surge region, along with the accompanying outlet flow reversal, and its' outlet pressure will tend to drop somewhat while the compressor rpm will increase - assuming a constant power input to the compressor.

Steve

SS90

24th March 2010, 07:23

It doesn't have a throttle butterfly Steve.

It has a slide.

How does the slide come down when you have so much boost?

Is it going to be injected?

Perhaps a dash pot carb?

I have seen a supercharged bike "not slowdown" before.

avgas

24th March 2010, 07:36

What car has a supercharger powered by a secondary power source?
None as its in-efficient (e.g. what goes in doesn't support the system). But it is not impossible. DC drive could power a supercharger for a short period (until the batteries go dead).
On a similar note there was a tuning shop in the 50's that had an interesting system
<object width="320" height="265"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WiVRv1ZPtWw&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WiVRv1ZPtWw&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="320" height="265"></embed></object>

bucketracer

24th March 2010, 09:07

It doesn't have a throttle butterfly Steve.

It has a slide.

Who said........SS your presumptions are running away with you again

Engage brain.....read.....don't add what's not there and think before opening your mouth...

SS90

24th March 2010, 09:13

Y

The plan is a carb or injected blow through system.

You did. Please elaborate on your system. A hand drawn picture?

NOID

24th March 2010, 09:18

i have been looking into this turbo/ supercharged idea. from what i have read unless you run piss all boost theres a whole ton. of issues that arise with carbs . So i have been looking into an injected turbo set up, problem i am having is finding an engine/ecu combo that is cheap. i was thinking a new CBR125 would be the best base. Comes with fuel injection and is just begging for someone to remap/reflash or piggy back the ecu. . run a small turbo (charade, uno ) etc i could go on .

Then why just do one. Twin Charge ftw !!!!

CookMySock

24th March 2010, 09:34

It doesn't have a throttle butterfly Steve. It has a slide. How does the slide come down when you have so much boost? I think you might be right.

The only thing returning that slide is the little spring on top of it. Enough boost will hold the slide up.

Just use a big Mikuni CV carb for that. Pipe the boost to above the diaphragm to equalise it, and use a pitot tube to the bowl for enrichening on-boost.

Steve

SS90

24th March 2010, 09:36

i have been looking into this turbo/ supercharged idea. from what i have read unless you run piss all boost theres a whole ton. of issues that arise with carbs . So i have been looking into an injected turbo set up, problem i am having is finding an engine/ecu combo that is cheap. i was thinking a new CBR125 would be the best base. Comes with fuel injection and is just begging for someone to remap/reflash or piggy back the ecu. . run a small turbo (charade, uno ) etc i could go on .

Then why just do one. Twin Charge ftw !!!!

That's the way I was thinking, Woodyracer has a FI CBR.

If Bucketracer was serious about the concept, I wonder if it possible to fit such a system (clearly from a wrecked CBR) onto an XL100 (or some such), I'm not so sure on the external power source, there are plenty of bikes with accessory/homemade super chargers.

Doesn't speedpro have something like a GSXR1100 that is supercharged?

CookMySock

24th March 2010, 09:39

unless you run piss all boost theres a whole ton. of issues that arise with carbs. Not at all, carbs are perfectly simple to blow through. Lots and lots of turbocharged bikes blow through their standard carbs, with a few mods to equalise the diaphragm for boost, and the pitot tube trick for enrichening on boost. Google "turbo pitot tube", without the quotes.

Steve

bucketracer

24th March 2010, 11:25

That's the way I was thinking, Woodyracer has a FI CBR........ I wonder if it possible to fit such a system (clearly from a wrecked CBR) onto an XL100 (or some such)

Or you could keep it simple and use one of IgniTech's programable CDI Fuel Injection ignition systems:-

http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm

Team ESE have brought some 2-stroke units from them for about $400 NZ each .............

Schrgd

24th March 2010, 12:12

Been done in NZ a few years ago, on a different bike i must say but those dirty little pit bikes were good for experimenting on if nothing else. Both Turboed and supercharged have been done, the turbo bike running primary legnum turbo from memory, and taking about a month to set up.
The supercharged one took a while longer.

Now the bike was a 110cc i think and was different to ride with a little boost but not noticly more powerful.
Will try to find the links if I can and post.

Yow Ling

24th March 2010, 17:48

What car has a supercharger powered by a secondary power source?

Maybe I reword your question"What engine has a supercharger powered by a secondary power source?"

Google the term "Hyperbar Supercharger" mostly used with diesel engines, it provides constant boost regardless of engine speed or load conditions. It does this by providing the turbocharger with its own combustion chamber and fuel supply, operating on the gas turbine principle , bleed air is taken from the compressor and supplied to the engine intake.

Using a weedeater motor would just make the bike a 2 cylinder of 99cc plus the weedeater displacement so would break the current rules. However under current rules a hyperbar would be legal as being a turbine it has no displacment

bucketracer

24th March 2010, 20:07

Ok, just toying with the idea, a supercharged Honda 100 ( std bore is 99cc) for F4.

Now the rules don't say the supercharger has to be driven by the same motor that powers the bike.

So the supercharger could be spun using an electric motor and battery or a weed eater motor or even two squirrels in a cage.

Using a weedeater motor would just make the bike a 2 cylinder of 99cc plus the weedeater displacement so would break the current rules.

Thanks for your thoughts Yow Ling, I like your turbine compressor idea and can see how I could use that.

A lot of people got lost on the technicalities but it was the legalities that I was interested in.

It’s pretty obvious there is no real technical reason it wouldn’t work it’s just that not too many people have had to find new ways of doing things within the F4 rules.

I was really interested in canvassing opinion on the idea that it’s only the motor that drives the bike that has to conform to the capacity rules.

And that the ancillaries could be powered any which way.

I would like to know what others think about the legalities of having a remote powered supercharger.

bucketracer

24th March 2010, 22:35

Don't go pissing your panties.

I thought most of the technical input today was interesting and honest but then there was the contributions from our regular Big-Noter that were desperate and often down right wrong and looked more about point scoring than genuine contribution.

SS90 it might come as a surprise to you, but you are the only one here that likes to wear his mothers panties.

jasonu

25th March 2010, 04:54

If you had, lets say, an ordinary 100cc legal bike and decided to strap on a running lawnmower engine to the frame for 'centrafugal ballast', would it now be capacity wise illegal eventhough the lawnmower engine wasn't connected to the driven wheel?
Wouldn't your idea of a 'self contained self driven' blower unit be more or less the same thing?

Also, I have heard (totally dumb) ideas of folks showing up with 250 twins and disconnecting one spark plug and saying it is now legal as only 125cc is pushing the wheel around. If that were to be deamed legal, eventhough it is pointless, then so should yours.

If you got one going and it was slow you will find no one will care. But if you start winning...

Buckets4Me

25th March 2010, 05:54

If you had, lets say, an ordinary 100cc legal bike and decided to strap on a running lawnmower engine to the frame for 'centrafugal ballast', would it now be capacity wise illegal eventhough the lawnmower engine wasn't connected to the driven wheel?
Wouldn't your idea of a 'self contained self driven' blower unit be more or less the same thing?

Also, I have heard (totally dumb) ideas of folks showing up with 250 twins and disconnecting one spark plug and saying it is now legal as only 125cc is pushing the wheel around. If that were to be deamed legal, eventhough it is pointless, then so should yours.

If you got one going and it was slow you will find no one will care. But if you start winning...

there was talk of using the other cilinder (without the spark plug) as the compressor ??

SS90

25th March 2010, 12:25

there was talk of using the other cilinder (without the spark plug) as the compressor ??

Still no pictures of your plan.

What is the problem.....Google not working?

Henk

25th March 2010, 15:58

there was talk of using the other cilinder (without the spark plug) as the compressor ??

I can only see that working if you overbored the compressor cylinder to give more than the nominal capacity e.g. 100cc live piston, 150 pump piston, has this been tried on anything? (too lazy to google)

Yow Ling

25th March 2010, 17:44

I can only see that working if you overbored the compressor cylinder to give more than the nominal capacity e.g. 100cc live piston, 150 pump piston, has this been tried on anything? (too lazy to google)

Dont forget that the compresor piston pumps on each stroke and the inlet only opens every second stroke on the live cylinder

Buckets4Me

25th March 2010, 18:22

Still no pictures of your plan.

What is the problem.....Google not working?

pitty it wasn't my plan LOL :)

have you got anything helpfull to say or are you off the meds and on the attack AGAIN ?

please dont come back over to New Zealand PLEASE

Henk

25th March 2010, 18:31

Dont forget that the compresor piston pumps on each stroke and the inlet only opens every second stroke on the live cylinder

Good point

bucketracer

25th March 2010, 18:38

Still no pictures of your plan. What is the problem.....Google not working?

I have never seen someone so needy for negative attention before.............or so desperate to be a big boy.

Yow Ling

25th March 2010, 19:05

I have never seen someone so needy for negative attention before.............or so desperate to be a big boy.

Read some of these http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/87923-German-jokes.?highlight=german+jokes might give u some insight to the german mind

speedpro

25th March 2010, 20:10

Just for info - Tjebbe Bruin built a speedway sidecar using an XS1100 with 2 cylinders sleeved down. It used modified original CV carbs and a blow through turbo system. I heard it made something in the region of 170hp.

bucketracer

25th March 2010, 20:18

Just for info - Tjebbe Bruin built a speedway sidecar using an XS1100 with 2 cylinders sleeved down. It used modified original CV carbs and a blow through turbo system. I heard it made something in the region of 170hp.

Thanks Speedpro for a local example of a blow through system that worked.

bucketracer

25th March 2010, 20:22

If you had, lets say, an ordinary 100cc legal bike and decided to strap on a running lawnmower engine to the frame for 'centrafugal ballast',

would it now be capacity wise illegal eventhough the lawnmower engine wasn't connected to the driven wheel?

Wouldn't your idea of a 'self contained self driven' blower unit be more or less the same thing?

That is the direction of my thinking............

TZ350

29th March 2010, 21:04

.

Reading Sparkplugs......some good pictures for the 4-stroke boys..

http://www.empirenet.com/pkelley2/sparkplugreading.html

Mudflaps

29th March 2010, 22:18

.

Reading Sparkplugs......some good pictures for the 4-stroke boys..

http://www.empirenet.com/pkelley2/sparkplugreading.html

Those are some good pics and well explained. Even for a lamen like me.

koba

1st April 2010, 21:37

Do the CDI`s come with an adjustable rev limiter? I think there unlimited(well most aftermarket) hense the rod problems.Anyone know of a cheap, say scooter aftermarket rev limiter?

Jaycar engine immobiliser/revlimiter.

posting links looks like it won't work but its on their website.

TZ350

4th April 2010, 13:22

.

Came across this on valves and valve springs while looking for FZR chassis info:-

"Next comes the matter of 'valve springs. From your place on a tall stool in an air-conditioned drafting room, logic tells you that two revolutions of the crank equals one valve-spring fatigue cycle. From the hot dyno cell or race track, the springs see things differently: at high crank speeds the rapid acceleration imparted by the cam lobe approximates a hammer blow. This can make the coils of valve springs "ring" or vibrate end-to-end. This ringing vibration may have a characteristic frequency of hundreds of cycles per second, so it can, if excited at high speed, add up fatigue cycles so fast that springs break prematurely. This spring surge can also cause irregular actions at the valve—float, bounce, etc.—that deteriorate other parts as well."

The rest can be read here:- http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/yamaha/yamaha_fzr750%2087.htm

Buckets4Me

6th April 2010, 18:37

if only all 4 strokes where this easy to build

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Zlax5L8BVGc&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en_GB&feature=player_profilepage&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Zlax5L8BVGc&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en_GB&feature=player_profilepage&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

speedpro

6th April 2010, 22:08

"Next comes the matter of 'valve springs. From your place on a tall stool in an air-conditioned drafting room, etc etc

Which is why serious V8 drag race motors use titanium valve springs with around 3 turns only. I've mapped their lift profiles at the valve and they're pretty wicked. Stuff like .8-1" (inches, NOT cm) lift with really radical lift rates on a motor that will pull 9,000rpm+. It may have changed but new ones were put in for every run.

woodyracer

7th April 2010, 17:58

got to love self assembling motorbikes, :]

TZ350

22nd April 2010, 16:29

.
A guide to the general principles for increasing the performance of modern engines.

Fundamentally there is a simple rule about getting more performance out of a piston engine. Get it to consume more air (with the right amount of fuel) and it will deliver more performance. More air consumed per cycle will benefit torque, whereas more air in unit time will benefit power. Increasing just air or just fuel rarely achieves much unless the manufacturer got things badly wrong, which is rare. The ratio of fuel to air must remain in the right proportions for proper combustion although some over-richness at full throttle is quite usual as a means of lessening thermal loads on the engine (and catalyst). This may sometimes permit a slight increase in airflow alone to produce a small performance gain.

Those who think that hotter cams are always a good thing should take note - unless they intend to go on the race track. Although the surge as a hot cam starts to work might feel impressive it can be illusory because the torque is just climbing back to where it should have been all along.

This is all quite fortunate because it means that the starting point for more performance is relatively easy and inexpensive and there is no need to do things like swapping cylinder heads. Upgrading the induction, fuel and exhaust systems undoubtedly gives the most performance gain for the money spent. This is true even for racing although for such purposes we offer similar conversions with more bias towards high engine speeds.

Read it all here:- http://www.jagweb.com/aj6eng/technics.php

richban

27th October 2010, 17:54

Well after dicking around with Mikuni TM28's for ages and thinking they were the shiz. I thought I would give a cheap PWK knock off a go. The TM worked great on my standard engine but on the tuned one it was as fussy as fock. So I chuck this thing on straight out of the no frills packaging and start it up. What a difference. It needs some fine tuning but man its no where near as fussy as the Mikuni. I had read that they were quite forgiving if not quite setup proper, but this was a surprise. When I get it dialed in on the track I will ad to this.

Buddha#81

28th October 2010, 07:13

so biggers not always better........?

bucketracer

28th October 2010, 19:52

...... I thought I would give a cheap PWK knock off a go.........So I chuck this thing on straight out of the no frills packaging and start it up. What a difference. It needs some fine tuning but man its no where near as fussy as the Mikuni........

Is this the carb your using, the OKO brand from Taiwan.........

timg

28th October 2010, 20:48

so biggers not always better........? For you mate, Big is Good. Keep up them pies :innocent: Gotta give us old farts some chance eh?

richban

28th October 2010, 21:11

so biggers not always better........?

Tiz a 30mm so bigger is better on this engine. The 28 worked really well on the old standard model. Perfect fueling on the dyno. But when the new beast was born it was a real bitch to tune.

richban

28th October 2010, 21:15

Is this the carb your using, the OKO brand from Taiwan.........

Same same but different. Akunra 30mm rip off. OKO do a 28 but not the 30. Anyway the thing I realized was you think you have it sorted and working until you try something else. Lesson never stop messing with your bike.

Bert

31st October 2010, 07:18

they are a great type of carb (my 28 is very easy to setup). I'm still waiting for the 30 to arrive for the new build..

I wander if this could be a solution for mudflaps?

richban

31st October 2010, 09:56

I wander if this could be a solution for mudflaps?

I was going to try palm off one of my TM28's. I reckon I could jet it for a lunchon really nice. It worked great on the standard engine.

Bert

31st October 2010, 18:39

Good Plan.
I'll send him down a single throttle unit then he should be all go :)

richban

13th November 2010, 11:37

223325223326Couple of pics of the new pipe. Big hole make big noise. The little shroud does wonders. I reckon it will look very cool when all painted up.

TZ350

13th November 2010, 18:01

Very interesting, looks a bit like the small reverse cone seen on megaphones of old Racing singles........ I wounder what do the classic boys do with their megas now, to quieten them down?

Very clever rich, I am impressed by your work.......

koba

14th November 2010, 15:01

I wounder what do the classic boys do with their megas now, to quieten them down?

Classic meetings still make your ears bleed if you stand next to the pit wall.

richban

14th November 2010, 16:28

Classic meetings still make your ears bleed if you stand next to the pit wall.

Some people put a small baffle in the revers cone. The smaller one I made could almost run open it really was quite quiet but did not make any more power. I am going to make a couple more shrouds with different amounts of perforation to see what noise reductions can be had. They are quick to make.

Bert

14th November 2010, 19:45

your bike looks the part Rich, and cheers for the brew.

though about this a bit more last night, not the most exciting evening in welly...

what about a supertrap like baffle system?
I know we had a lot of success with a similar design to quieten down a speedway chair, years ago...

a few disks and you could be away laughing???

http://www.supertrapp.com/technology/index.asp

as discussed,
silencer application: (ok designed for twostrokes but must have some uses) second to last download on this page:
http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/software.htm
audio spectrum software:
http://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm (free) and a $5 microphone for Jcar. could also work as a knock sensor for tuning your CDI??
If you know what your main driving frequency is, then you could gain a lot more with your slit concept..
I think I've posted this up before somewhere......?