Aviation fuel?

[sl8er4lyf]

I know that BP out near Kumeu sells aviation fuel, i think its 105 octane, anyone used this? if so are there high risks of melting your engine? haha

[marty]

Oh the Hyo will love it - it will be good for at least 10 more hps - there's a reason they use it in race cars and bikes.

[onearmedbandit]

Yip, just be careful with the throttle until you get used to the free extra power.

[CHAPLIN]

It just seams like your getting more hp because your engine will run smoother in the top end.

[onearmedbandit]

This has been thrashed out many times before. If your engine is tuned to run fine on 91 or 95 you will simply not get any advantages from running a higher octane fuel. If you say increase the compression ratio or play with the ignition timing then your engine will require more octane before it will start 'knocking', and that's when a higher octane fuel will be of benefit. In itself it doesn't really add power, but allows your engine to run in a state of tune where it can make more power.

[YellowDog]

105 isn't tht high and you can pay loads of money for much higher octane levels.

Next time I'm down to near empty will fill up at the BP in Kuemu to give a go!

What is the price per litre?

[cs363]

One thing to be cautious of, make sure it's unleaded if you have an injected bike with an O2 sensor and/or catalytic converter as the lead can cause issues with both these items.
Or check with someone in the know regarding your model bike. (like a dealer/mechanic etc., rather than that know it all mate.....)

Having scored the dregs of a tin of some Elf racing fuel, that got added to the fuel in my tank, I can report it smells bloody nice :D

[Pussy]

One thing to be cautious of, make sure it's unleaded if you have an injected bike with an O2 sensor and/or catalytic converter as the lead can cause issues with both these items.
Or check with someone in the know regarding your model bike. (like a dealer/mechanic etc., rather than that know it all mate.....)

Having scored the dregs of a tin of some Elf racing fuel, that got added to the fuel in my tank, I can report it smells bloody nice :D

Avgas is DEFINITELY NOT unleaded.
It's loaded with TEL (Tetra Ethyl Lead)
In my opinion, it is shite fuel for your average road going vehicle

[cs363]

Avgas is DEFINITELY NOT unleaded.
It's loaded with TEL (Tetra Ethyl Lead)
In my opinion, it is shite fuel for your average road going vehicle

Yes, that's what I thought - and you should know, even if you do run kerosene these days :lol:
Great for old bikes though eh? :)

[quickbuck]

In my opinion, it is shite fuel for your average road going vehicle
Yup,
what he said..... Motor really needs to be tuned to it to get the best from it, as been said before.

[Trouser]

Lead is death to platinum spark plugs also.

[sl8er4lyf]

Shot for the assistance, i'll speak to BP Kumeu and let you guys know whether it is infact unleaded and also $/L

[quickbuck]

Shot for the assistance, i'll speak to BP Kumeu and let you guys know whether it is infact unleaded and also $/L
There is very little likelihood of it being unleaded.
The Blue Avgas is low lead, and tends to be very expensive.
If it is Green, it is the highly leaded 100 Octane stuff that is available from Aeroclubs.

At a rough guess, i think it is about $2.40 per litre?? Could be more....

[marty]

If it's Avgas, it's Low Lead,(110LL) and will be green or blue/purple.

Don't be a dick - it will NOT make your bike run any better - in fact, it will more than likely damage it if you do not tune the engine to run on it.

Last time I used 2 litres of avgas (and I have access to unlimited supply of it) in a tank topped with 15l of 96, the pipes ran grey for the next 250kms. There was no increase in performance.

[onearmedbandit]

Same here. I only run it when I fill up at the track. No difference whatsoever (yoshi slip-on, filter, and yoshi engine management) in performance, and yeah a grey pipe for the next few hundred k's.

[quickbuck]

If it's Avgas, it's Low Lead,(110LL) and will be green or blue/purple.

Don't be a dick - it will NOT make your bike run any better - in fact, it will more than likely damage it if you do not tune the engine to run on it.

Last time I used 2 litres of avgas (and I have access to unlimited supply of it) in a tank topped with 15l of 96, the pipes ran grey for the next 250kms. There was no increase in performance.

The way I learnt it, and this was 19 years ago mind, is:
100 is Green
100 Low lead is Blue (Could well be 110)
The Purple stuff is 130....

Can't remember what colour 115 was....

Haven't had to look. We only use the stuff that comes out of the tanker, and it has been quite a few years since I actually put any into, or water checked an aircraft.

Doesn't really matter though, and you are right, all it will do is give you a grey pipe, assuming you are not running too rich, and the motor isn't burning oil...

[Pussy]

Don't be fooled by the "low lead" description, either.
Still LOTS more lead than even the old 96 motor spirit

[quickbuck]

Don't be fooled by the "low lead" description, either.
Still LOTS more lead than even the old 96 motor spirit

Amen to that.... There is something like 6 times the lead of the old 96 in normal avgas, and the low lead version is about 4 times... or some such statistic that may have been made up on the spot....

[Flip]

Unless your motor is designed to run on leaded racing fuel, don't use it. The lead will kill your cat, your exhaust will run hot and its a waste of money.
To get the benefit from high octane fuel you need a high compression motor. The motor makers spend a fortune to insure their motors run as efficiently as possible on standard pump gas. The std pump fuel in NZ is pretty good stuff actually. Just try that 98 unleaded fuel from BP, they seem to think it might be worth a few more bhp in Ferrari or some other high end performance car.

[Pussy]

Unless your motor is designed to run on leaded racing fuel, don't use it. The lead will kill your cat, your exhaust will run hot and its a waste of money.
To get the benefit from high octane fuel you need a high compression motor. The motor makers spend a fortune to insure their motors run as efficiently as possible on standard pump gas. The std pump fuel in NZ is pretty good stuff actually. Just try that 98 unleaded fuel from BP, they seem to think it might be worth a few more bhp in Ferrari or some other high end performance car.

Amen to that!
My Aussie spec (E24) sem fiddy LOVES BP Ultimate.... Shell V-Power 95 goes well in it too





Edit: I also reckon the quality of 95 isn't always the same. Almost as though it varies between batches sometimes

[pc220]

[QUOTE=cs363;1129637687
check with someone in the know regarding your model bike. (like a dealer/mechanic etc., rather than that know it all mate.....)
[/QUOTE]
ie. dont ask DB

[Mikkel]

Unless your motor is designed to run on leaded racing fuel, don't use it. The lead will kill your cat, your exhaust will run hot and its a waste of money.
To get the benefit from high octane fuel you need a high compression motor. The motor makers spend a fortune to insure their motors run as efficiently as possible on standard pump gas. The std pump fuel in NZ is pretty good stuff actually. Just try that 98 unleaded fuel from BP, they seem to think it might be worth a few more bhp in Ferrari or some other high end performance car.

+1

A higher octane rating just means that the fuel is less vulnerable to pre-ignition (aka knocking, detonation, pinging, etc.) than lower octane ratings. Unless you have a turbo or supercharger and are playing around with upping the boost pressure there's really no benefit in using avgas. People are mentioning high compression engines, and while that is true you won't have a high-compression engine unless you've modified a stock engine extensively.

As was said, it contains tetra-ethyl lead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetra_ethyl_lead) which is some nasty shit indeed. ...and not just because it will fuck your catalytic converter! The long term effect of this shit might yet turn out to be much much worse than what has been predicted. However, unless you are running a catalytic converter I can not see how leaded fuel would have any detrimental effect upon your engine - the lead should not dissociate from the fuel until it has been combusted and cars ran for ages on leaded fuel with no problems. However, that is my quick and dirty analysis and it may be wrong.

[Dak]

Another point, if a station is selling Avgas straight to Joe Public and actally letting customers fill vehicles with it, they will eventually get screwed. It is illegal to run Avgas in any street vehicle on a public road.

[motorbyclist]

I know that BP out near Kumeu sells aviation fuel, i think its 105 octane, anyone used this? if so are there high risks of melting your engine? haha

They have on the pump that it is "race gas" and yes it is leaded (says on the pump and upon my enquiry)

Just go buy a big drum of the proper stuff if you're that keen but it's illegal to run it on the road as it isn't levied, it's fucking expensive, and it won't do jack unless you've tuned for it

[Pumba]

Another point, if a station is selling Avgas straight to Joe Public and actally letting customers fill vehicles with it, they will eventually get screwed. It is illegal to run Avgas in any street vehicle on a public road.

Never brought it there myself but my understanding was that you needed to produce a race licence in order to buy it

[quickbuck]

Never brought it there myself but my understanding was that you needed to produce a race licence in order to buy it
Or, fill the bikes on the trailer with race numbers on them......

Sometimes the spanner man has to fill the bikes, and not all of us have a race licence ;)

[motorbyclist]

Just for those that aren't in the know - many dirt riders pass that station on a sat/sun morning on their way to woodhill or riverhead for a ride/race and might conceivably want some of that gas....

[Jay GTI]

Just for those that aren't in the know - many dirt riders pass that station on a sat/sun morning on their way to woodhill or riverhead for a ride/race and might conceivably want some of that gas....

In act I've been told that it's there for the dirt riders, not tried it myself, but 2-smokes apparently run quite nicely on a mix of normal fuel and avgas, jetted to suit obviously.

[DEATH_INC.]

:slap: this has been done to death previously..... but, a quick summary.....avgas or any other high octane gas burns SLOWER than 96 or 91, so you actually loose power with the higher octane fuel. run the lowest rated gas your engine will run on properly ( no detonation or pre-ignition etc) to get the most from it.

[crazyhorse]

Avgas is DEFINITELY NOT unleaded.
It's loaded with TEL (Tetra Ethyl Lead)
In my opinion, it is shite fuel for your average road going vehicle

What he said. :done:

(gotta love the fact you ride a hyobag and wanna make it faster) :rofl:

[motorbyclist]

In act I've been told that it's there for the dirt riders, not tried it myself, but 2-smokes apparently run quite nicely on a mix of normal fuel and avgas, jetted to suit obviously.

yeah talking to a lot of the big bore 4 stroke guys (including the guy i bought my bike off) they run a 50:50 mix of 91 and avgas.... I just run BP98 as anything lower and the bike doesn't idle well... and I'm running upwards of 12.5:1 compression ratio

[YellowDog]

If it's Avgas, it's Low Lead,(110LL) and will be green or blue/purple.

Don't be a dick - it will NOT make your bike run any better - in fact, it will more than likely damage it if you do not tune the engine to run on it.

Last time I used 2 litres of avgas (and I have access to unlimited supply of it) in a tank topped with 15l of 96, the pipes ran grey for the next 250kms. There was no increase in performance.

Clearly it is best avoided then.

A few years back I had an old Porsche 928 and it had a very fancy electronic management system that would dynamically adjust the timing accordingly.

I used to stick 98RON in it and get somewhere between 10% & 15% further on it. This is not BS because it was a set 550km journey I was doing every two weeks on a 115kph cruise control. I also used one of those magnetic fuel pipe gismos that is supposed to make the fuel behave in a less volotile way and increase efficiency (that probably was BS).

I suspect that some of the older big engined bikes might have a similar sort of management system and be able to take some benefit from the higher octane.

But the moral of this story is, unless you know your bike can cope with the higher octane, avoid like the plague!

[motorbyclist]

I used to stick 98RON in it and get somewhere between 10% & 15% further on it.!

I've found several FXR150 all got similar economy gains (and a noticeable bit more go) on BP98, and my old VFR400 got a 10% improvement on it without any noticable performance gain (all compared against BP91)

[quickbuck]

But the moral of this story is, unless you know your bike can cope with the higher octane, avoid like the plague!

It's not so much "Coping with higher Octane", it is more of, is it necessary to run a fuel with a higher octane figure.

As we pay more for it, then it may not actually be worth it.

Yes, your Porsche would have run more economical on a fuel with a higher octane. No disputing that.
The ignition would have gone to Full Advance, as it didn't detect any knocking.... then you required less fuel to make the same power (Very roughly speaking mind).
In fact many bikes will actually run more economical too, if the rider buttons off the throttle in the cruse... Well, actually it doesn't matter what the octane of the fuel you use makes that work!

Some quick research here...... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating)

[Jantar]

If you consider most piston driven aviation engines (lycoming, continental, etc) are designed to run at around 2500 rpm, avgas is also designed to be a slow burning fuel to give optimal performance. Then look at the Rotax aviation engines (912, 914, etc) that run at 5500 rpm, and the manufacturer recommends normal mogas, not av gas. The service interval on Rotax engines running avgas is 50 hours as opposed to 100 hrs on mogas.

Now which type of engine is closer to yours? The one that runs at 2500 rpm or the one that runs at 5500 rpm?

[Flip]

If you consider most piston driven aviation engines (lycoming, continental, etc) are designed to run at around 2500 rpm, avgas is also designed to be a slow burning fuel to give optimal performance. Then look at the Rotax aviation engines (912, 914, etc) that run at 5500 rpm, and the manufacturer recommends normal mogas, not av gas. The service interval on Rotax engines running avgas is 50 hours as opposed to 100 hrs on mogas.

Now which type of engine is closer to yours? The one that runs at 2500 rpm or the one that runs at 5500 rpm?

Avgas goes back to the second world war when a bunch of nutters were putting 2000 hp 16 liter turbocharged V12 engines in planes, and they needed very high quality, leaded, high octane fuel to run on. The specification and regulations on piston engine air craft fuel goes back to WW2.

It amazes me how many people think octane and calorific value is the same thing. Octane is the fuels ability not to ignite under compression, however as the octane goes up the flame front speed of the fuel drops. Taken to the extreme if you run race gas in a low compression vintage motor the fuel burns too slow and is still burning as it leaves the cylinder and heats up the exhaust because of the radiant energy from the still burning fuel.

Avgas is a narrow cut fuel. It has bugger all small volatile molecules. These small molecules in pump fuel are ignited by the spark first and greatly increase ability of the fuel to be ignited and burnt by a spark. Some motors with a average ignition system just won't run well on Avgas, they spit, backfire and just run badly.

To all those folk who say their std motors run better on avgas, well sorry but "bollox". If I am wrong about this well so is Mr Honda, Mr Suzuki and Mr Yamaha who only spends about the GDP of a small country making sure his motors run as well as they possibly can on pump gas. I guess you know more than they do.

[Expert]

Avgas is high octane because planes fly in a low oxygen atmosphere so you have to take the oxygen with you in the fuel. It's for Slow revving, big bore, low compression engines.
It works when mixed with pump gas to stop pinking in dirt bikes or bikes working hard with unreliable cooling, like going slowly in mud but revving hard, but I've had better results mixing methanol with petrol in these circumstances though.

[gatch]

Interesting seeing some of the myths of avgas coming out.

Should run your lawn mowers on it, you'll shave 20 seconds a lap in your back yard hahahahahahaha.

[avgas]

DO IT!!!!!
RG ran fucking lovely on up to about 80% mix of the good ol av' - but thats strokers for you, simple engines.
Dunno if I would run injected engines on the stuff - but good ol' carbied anything runs sweet on the stuff. Be careful though as the stuff has the most bizzare aroma - and it very addictive when burnt.
GB 1 (425) ran stonking on about 50% mix, any higher and I gained smoothness, but lost speed, and less and she went back to her knocking self. GB 2 (400) hated more than 30% mix, GB 3 (500) was the same.
ZXR 400 loved anything over 30% - but then again that was race carbs, SP motor and rumbling Laser ZXR9 pipe. So it basically ate lightning and shat thunder.
Ran the TS185 on 100% once, sounded funny. Like and old warbird.
Since I am now banned from buying the stuff from a previous source would be good to know if I can get it at Kumeu. But do it to a bike that isn't worth the coin of course.
Still my most favourite smell in the mornings. Av' from the pipe

[FROSTY]

adding to the thread a little. Modern bike (post 95 at a guess)on avgas --waste of time effort and money.
run an older bike on a 50/50 mix and you do see gains. But its because the bikes were desighned to be run on leaded fuel.
As for the discussion re how "bad" the lead is for you/the enviroment I agree but its also a crock of shit.
The fuel we currently run is not exactly good for you

[Pussy]

Avgas goes back to the second world war when a bunch of nutters were putting 2000 hp 16 liter turbocharged V12 engines in planes, and they needed very high quality, leaded, high octane fuel to run on. The specification and regulations on piston engine air craft fuel goes back to WW2.

It amazes me how many people think octane and calorific value is the same thing. Octane is the fuels ability not to ignite under compression, however as the octane goes up the flame front speed of the fuel drops. Taken to the extreme if you run race gas in a low compression vintage motor the fuel burns too slow and is still burning as it leaves the cylinder and heats up the exhaust because of the radiant energy from the still burning fuel.

Avgas is a narrow cut fuel. It has bugger all small volatile molecules. These small molecules in pump fuel are ignited by the spark first and greatly increase ability of the fuel to be ignited and burnt by a spark. Some motors with a average ignition system just won't run well on Avgas, they spit, backfire and just run badly.

To all those folk who say their std motors run better on avgas, well sorry but "bollox". If I am wrong about this well so is Mr Honda, Mr Suzuki and Mr Yamaha who only spends about the GDP of a small country making sure his motors run as well as they possibly can on pump gas. I guess you know more than they do.
This man is on to it.
Judging by the mis-informed opinions of some... Jet A1 would be even better... after all, it is jet fuel!

[Kickaha]

Judging by the mis-informed opinions of some... Jet A1 would be even better... after all, it is jet fuel!

:lol: I doubt there'd be to many motors that would run on it, we used to have an old heater that probably would though

[Pussy]

Taken to the extreme if you run race gas in a low compression vintage motor the fuel burns too slow and is still burning as it leaves the cylinder and heats up the exhaust because of the radiant energy from the still burning fuel.


...also the main reason why avgas is VERY good at burnung exhaust valves.
Aero engines have sodium filled valve stems to cool the valves (ones running a high bmep).
I wouldn't even think about exposing my sem fiddy's titanium exhaust valves to avgas

[Expert]

Generally, apart from vintage stuff (low compression, slow revving) if your bike runs better on avgas then you have a problem with your bike that running on avgas is masking ie. your ignition is too far advanced, compression is too high etc. You'de be better off tuning the engine to run properly on pump gas like it's intended.
The benzene put in unleaded fuel is arguably worse for you than the lead it replaced.

[quickbuck]

:lol: I doubt there'd be to many motors that would run on it, we used to have an old heater that probably would though

Ummm, you do realise he was taking the pi$$ right??
Actually a Diesel will run okay on Jet A1 okay for quite a while....

[scumdog]

.... your ignition is too far advanced, compression is too high etc.......

Kinda sums up the motor in my hot-rod truck - hence why avgas seems to make it run better (less pinking, smoother idle)

[marty]

...also the main reason why avgas is VERY good at burnung exhaust valves.
Aero engines have sodium filled valve stems to cool the valves (ones running a high bmep).
I wouldn't even think about exposing my sem fiddy's titanium exhaust valves to avgas

actually your engine will run quite happily on avgas - just a little expensive! It's the EDP and Aux pumps that will have issues - the 1900 can run on avgas all day, but the pumps can only go 10 hrs.

[marty]

Ummm, you do realise he was taking the pi$$ right??
Actually a Diesel will run okay on Jet A1 okay for quite a while....

I know someone who did over 200000kms in a Mazda 323 diesel - all of it on Jet-A, with no additives at all. He commuted 200km a day in it, often at 0300am with the accelerator pegged to the floor at a max 145km/h.

The gearbox ended up grenading, but the engine was still mint.

[Pussy]

actually your engine will run quite happily on avgas - just a little expensive! It's the EDP and Aux pumps that will have issues - the 1900 can run on avgas all day, but the pumps can only go 10 hrs.
If I wanted lead build up everywhere.
I don't. That's why it gets fed 95 or 98 octane motor spirit

[Flip]

I know someone who did over 200000kms in a Mazda 323 diesel - all of it on Jet-A, with no additives at all. He commuted 200km a day in it, often at 0300am with the accelerator pegged to the floor at a max 145km/h.

The gearbox ended up grenading, but the engine was still mint.

Jet fuel is high quality kero. It would make great diesel fuel espcially in artic conditions.

[quickbuck]

Jet fuel is high quality kero. It would make great diesel fuel espcially in artic conditions.

Hi quality Kero?
Well, i would actually say a similer cut to Kero with a heap of other stuff added to it so it can be used in aviation. Not high quality at all...

When we were under training we had to learn about 9 properties of F34 (Jet A1 with a Fuel System Icing Inhabitor).
After reading the list you got the impression that you can't even burn the stuff!

In reality you need a bit of heat to get the stuff to ignite. You can put a match out in it quite easily.

Oh, it's cheaper than Kero.... Imagine going into Bunnings and getting 200000 litres of Kero to fill your 747 ;)

[gatch]

Jet fuel is high quality kero. It would make great diesel fuel espcially in artic conditions.

Yup, you could conceivably run the average turbine engine on diesel too, maybe even get some performance gain, but it will run way hotter and probably die in a short time..

[quickbuck]

Yup, you could conceivably run the average turbine engine on diesel too, maybe even get some performance gain, but it will run way hotter and probably die in a short time..

Correct:
10 Hours between Hot End overhauls on the Viper, as opposed to 2500 hrs....

[Pussy]

PT-6s run okay on diesel... provided it's not the high sulphur shit we get in NZ

[marty]

Hi quality Kero?
Well, i would actually say a similer cut to Kero with a heap of other stuff added to it so it can be used in aviation. Not high quality at all...

When we were under training we had to learn about 9 properties of F34 (Jet A1 with a Fuel System Icing Inhabitor).
After reading the list you got the impression that you can't even burn the stuff!

In reality you need a bit of heat to get the stuff to ignite. You can put a match out in it quite easily.

Oh, it's cheaper than Kero.... Imagine going into Bunnings and getting 200000 litres of Kero to fill your 747 ;)

I ran my ST-X Navara on kero a lot of the time - it would do about 80km less per tank on JetA than it would on straight diesel. It was cheap (<10c/l) so it didn't really matter :)

[marty]

If I wanted lead build up everywhere.
I don't. That's why it gets fed 95 or 98 octane motor spirit

Yeah I wouldn't really go there unless I had to - it was more a factual statement than an actual

[wickle]

Another point, if a station is selling Avgas straight to Joe Public and actally letting customers fill vehicles with it, they will eventually get screwed. It is illegal to run Avgas in any street vehicle on a public road.

most stations that sell Avgas/racefuel get you sign a disclaimer that you will not use the fuel in a vechile that is going on public roads, I think the fine is quite high if caught,

[gatch]

Correct:
10 Hours between Hot End overhauls on the Viper, as opposed to 2500 hrs....

Yeah right on, I remember one of the instructors at woodbourne talking about the "wasp" choppers that the navy used to operate ? Said they ran them on diesel when they had to but servicing time was cut down to a fraction of what it normally was..

[quickbuck]

Yeah right on, I remember one of the instructors at woodbourne talking about the "wasp" choppers that the navy used to operate ? Said they ran them on diesel when they had to but servicing time was cut down to a fraction of what it normally was..

You're right... Memory wasn't all destroyed in the bar ;)

The Wasp was Auth'd to run on almost anything, including AvCat (The Ships fuel).... Just servicing times were compromised.

In actual fact, any Gas Turbine will run on anything, it is just that sometimes the Fuel is actually used for other things on the engine than just burning.
For example running servos in the fuel system....

Righto, lets see how far away from running AvGas in your bike we can make this thread ;)

[Expert]

Jet engines and diesel engines will run on almost anything that has a calorific value, the swedish got a diesel engine to run on cream just because of the amount of fat in it.
The main difference between kero and diesel, as far as running in your truck is concerned, is that kero has a much lower lubricating ability and will wreck the fuel pump. If you add engine oil to kero, say 20:1, you virtually get diesel and the oil lubricates the pump.
Running a jet engine on diesel means everything will get lagged in soot, but it won't harm it.

[motorbyclist]

I hear the gas turbine used to power the current american tanks are designed to run on almost anything.....

[GKTaylor]

Don't get confused between Avgas (Aviation Fuel) and Race Gas these are different fuels, most info points at Avgas being no good for Catalytic converters and O2 sensors, however there are leaded and unleaded race fuels, one would have to contact the suppliers to confirm, in any case I found this Q&A

Motor Trend: If higher octane fuel is used, will an engine make more power?
Rockett Brand: The answer is maybe. If your engine pings/detonates, you will benefit from a higher octane. In some cases, even when detonation is not present, higher octane fuel can improve power because of its special fuel chemistry that promotes improved combustion efficiency. Improved combustion efficiency means that more of the gasoline is being burned in the combustion chamber thus making more horsepower; less is being burned/expelled in the exhaust.

[Expert]

Who's gonna start on about the cetane rating of ci fuels?
I used to find my diesel car would run so quietly on straight vegetable oil i used to buy from tesco in the uk, i got some funny looks pouring 80 litres of crisp and dry in the fuel tank in the car park though. half the price of diesel over there.

[Flip]

Don't get confused between Avgas (Aviation Fuel) and Race Gas these are different fuels, most info points at Avgas being no good for Catalytic converters and O2 sensors, however there are leaded and unleaded race fuels, one would have to contact the suppliers to confirm, in any case I found this Q&A

Motor Trend: If higher octane fuel is used, will an engine make more power?
Rockett Brand: The answer is maybe. If your engine pings/detonates, you will benefit from a higher octane. In some cases, even when detonation is not present, higher octane fuel can improve power because of its special fuel chemistry that promotes improved combustion efficiency. Improved combustion efficiency means that more of the gasoline is being burned in the combustion chamber thus making more horsepower; less is being burned/expelled in the exhaust.

Hate to bring bad news but Av-gas and race gas is exactly the same fuel. It's packaged from exactly the same tank.
Methanol race fuel is diferent.

[motorbyclist]

Hate to bring bad news but Av-gas and race gas is exactly the same fuel. It's packaged from exactly the same tank.

where'd you hear that from? It would put into question the whole "plane motors only do 2500rpm" reasoning behind not running avgas....

[gatch]

Jet engines and diesel engines will run on almost anything that has a calorific value, the swedish got a diesel engine to run on cream just because of the amount of fat in it.
The main difference between kero and diesel, as far as running in your truck is concerned, is that kero has a much lower lubricating ability and will wreck the fuel pump. If you add engine oil to kero, say 20:1, you virtually get diesel and the oil lubricates the pump.
Running a jet engine on diesel means everything will get lagged in soot, but it won't harm it.

Maybe you are mistaken there mate. I was under the impression that diesel burns considerably hotter than kerosene, and the increased heat shortens the service life of a turbine engine considerably..

Otherwise I wouldn't know about their lubricity characteristics.

[cs363]

Hate to bring bad news but Av-gas and race gas is exactly the same fuel. It's packaged from exactly the same tank.
Methanol race fuel is diferent.

Oh? So Elf, VP, Shell etc., are lying about their products?

http://www.elfracing.com/lub/lubroot.nsf/VS_SWIPSA/25F155AD7574095EC1257680004C047C?OpenDocument&UNI=026070A45EC6B9F9C12570420055F1BC&LG=EN&
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/
http://www.shell.com/home/content2/shellracing-en/wousa/racing_fuels_wousa_150702.html
http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=9018984&contentId=7045672
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/australia/corporate_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads_pdfs/f/Petrol_Racing_Fuels_Octans_Power.pdf
http://sunocoinc.com/site/Consumer/RaceFuels/

[quickbuck]

Maybe you are mistaken there mate. I was under the impression that diesel burns considerably hotter than kerosene, and the increased heat shortens the service life of a turbine engine considerably..

Otherwise I wouldn't know about their lubricity characteristics.

I think it was a case of a little more heat... BUT the (Wasp) engine will limit (Govern) itself on that... The main thing is the Thermocouples, and Turbine Nozzles get covered in soot at a rough guess.... The Turbine Nozzles are NOT the same as the Fuel Nozzles... Although, these will get a very hard time too....

Kero may well have less Lubrication properties... But I would Haz-it-a guess that these lube properties are present in AvTur....

Good to see we are getting off topic again... Close to getting back to AvGas again ;)

[gatch]

I think it was a case of a little more heat... BUT the (Wasp) engine will limit (Govern) itself on that... The main thing is the Thermocouples, and Turbine Nozzles get covered in soot at a rough guess.... The Turbine Nozzles are NOT the same as the Fuel Nozzles... Although, these will get a very hard time too....

Kero may well have less Lubrication properties... But I would Haz-it-a guess that these lube properties are present in AvTur....

Good to see we are getting off topic again... Close to getting back to AvGas again ;)

1 step at a time eh :D

[Pussy]

I've got reasonable access to "green river".
And I've got no bloody interest whatsoever to use it as road fuel. I reckon it's crap for that use.... unless of course your motorcycle has a Lycoming IO-720 in it.....

[Flip]

Oh? So Elf, VP, Shell etc., are lying about their products?

http://www.elfracing.com/lub/lubroot.nsf/VS_SWIPSA/25F155AD7574095EC1257680004C047C?OpenDocument&UNI=026070A45EC6B9F9C12570420055F1BC&LG=EN&
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/
http://www.shell.com/home/content2/shellracing-en/wousa/racing_fuels_wousa_150702.html
http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=9018984&contentId=7045672
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/australia/corporate_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads_pdfs/f/Petrol_Racing_Fuels_Octans_Power.pdf
http://sunocoinc.com/site/Consumer/RaceFuels/

These are not the fuel that is being sold here. elfracing is a french web page, VP is an american, The shell is American, the BP is afrcian. The 2nd BP is australian. The sunoco ia another american company.

The 100 octane race fuel that is sold in NZ is Avgas. Actually its out of spec Avgas. If you buy a tin of it from them its Avgas, If you buy it at the track its Avgas, if you buy it at a service station near a track its Avgas. I used to work for them so trust me its Avgas.

[cs363]

Well perhaps you should specify 'sold in NZ' if you're going to make such a generalisation in future as it clouds the argument. Besides, as international companies they have worldwide websites - not all relevant information is listed on local websites.
As it happens Elf is sold in NZ, so is VP - admittedly it's not available at petrol stations, but then that hasn't been specified either.
I presume the race gas you are talking about is Shell, as I've heard that comment before about their race gas?


Edit: For those interested

VP Racing fuels available from:
Pioneer Auto Parts
Penrose, Auckland
New Zealand

T: 64-9-634-2123
F: 64-9-636-7978
E: sales@pap.co.nz

There was also an outfit called McPhail Group who were selling it on Trade Me, not sure of their connection to VP - probably a parallel importer?


Elf racing fuels available from:

Elf Lubricants NZ Ltd in Auckland, Tauranga and Christchurch (Check Yellow Pages for contact details)


It wouldn't surprise me at all if other brands of racing fuel are available through smaller outlets, but Elf & VP are the 'big boys' in the specialised race fuel market.
I'm sure Shell probably sell the most volume, but as far as I am aware they only sell leaded race gas under the brand name Shell Racing Fuel 100 Plus (specs here:
http://www.shell.com/static/nz-en/downloads/shell_for_motorists/fuels/racing_fuel_100_plus_2006_09.pdf)
The above may well be out of spec avgas as Flip states, as this is certainly a persistent rumour. Perhaps if someone knows someone at Shell they could clarify?

[cruza]

where'd you hear that from? It would put into question the whole "plane motors only do 2500rpm" reasoning behind not running avgas....

He's right , just rebranded for pumps outside of airfield sites .....out of spec avgas....... If it was out of spec it wouldn't leave the tank farm, as most bulk racegas deliverys are done from a dedicated bulk avgas tanker anyway. The few that aren't load ex the same gantry/bulk tank .
whether its sold under shell. bp or mobil , its out of the same bulk tank that is on line at that time , for the south island all ex christchurch .

There are other "race fuels " of course like elf etc which are available in drums.

[Expert]

[QUOTE=gatch;1129650141]Maybe you are mistaken there mate. I was under the impression that diesel burns considerably hotter than kerosene, and the increased heat shortens the service life of a turbine engine considerably..

You're right, kerosene burns colder in free air, it's higher up the refractory scale than diesel, but there's bugger all in it, about 40 degrees c.
But free air is not what's happening inside a jet engine.
Shortened service life is bound to come up running an engine on anything other than the manufacturer recommends, but probably something to do with all the additives in pump diesel not being suitable for jet engines and the soot issue.
I could be wrong, but i'm not going to tell anyone they're wrong when i don't know all the facts.........

[avgas]

I hear the gas turbine used to power the current american tanks are designed to run on almost anything.....

Most of these setups since the first gen could do this. I think even the T72's motor could run multi-fuel.

[avgas]

Sorry for the dumbass question - but do bikes in NZ run a catalytic convertor? I have never really thought about it, as I was used to cats having their own little catchment area. Where as the only bikes i have had in the past run either via exbansion chambers or a collectors box/pipe at best.
Are there suppose to be catalytic converters in the exhaust?

[Pussy]

Sorry for the dumbass question - but do bikes in NZ run a catalytic convertor? I have never really thought about it, as I was used to cats having their own little catchment area. Where as the only bikes i have had in the past run either via exbansion chambers or a collectors box/pipe at best.
Are there suppose to be catalytic converters in the exhaust?
Most bikes built in the last four years or so (the mid to large capacity four strokes) do have catalytic converters

[cs363]

unless of course your motorcycle has a Lycoming IO-720 in it.....

Funny you should mention that........... :lol:

[motorbyclist]

Sorry for the dumbass question - but do bikes in NZ run a catalytic convertor? I have never really thought about it, as I was used to cats having their own little catchment area. Where as the only bikes i have had in the past run either via exbansion chambers or a collectors box/pipe at best.
Are there suppose to be catalytic converters in the exhaust?

newer ones do - just like cars a cat is required everywhere but here, but it's not worth making a special cat-free model for small markets like our own especially when our laws might change (if they haven't already)

so yes, you can cut out the cat (if there is one, and a lot of them are built into the muffler) and still get your wof, cars included provided there isn't any leakage

[pete376403]

If you consider most piston driven aviation engines (lycoming, continental, etc) are designed to run at around 2500 rpm, avgas is also designed to be a slow burning fuel to give optimal performance.

When Honda were racing the 5 cyl 125 and 6 cyl 250s back in the '60s, they ran the engines on regular grade gas becuase the higher octane fuels were too slow burning. At 22000 rpm there just wasn't enough time for the fire to get going properly before disappearing out the exhaust pipe.

Considering that current 250 4 cyl motors are doing close to these revs, running av-gas in these would be detrimental to performance - even 98 might be too high (ie slow) for them.