Can anyone tell me why bike shops only open for half a day on Sunday?

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

I have never worked this one out.

I did ask in a motorbike shop once and the reply was "we don't make enough money on a sunday to break even".

Surely more people are around to buy accessories and trial bikes on a sunday than on a week day?

Just never made sense, you don't see harvey norman or dick smith closing early on a sunday (just comparing some retailers).

It just seems like a really strange business model to me. At first I thought they closed to allow for shop organised rides but this doesn't seem to be the case.

[Virago]

Most bike shop personnel are keen bikers too, and are perhaps entitled to some time off to ride their bikes...?

Here in Dunedin, all the bike shops are open Saturday mornings only, closed the rest of the weekend. I've got no problem with that at all.

[AllanB]

Stop your bitching - there are no motorcycle shops open on a Sunday in Christchurch and they all close by 1.00pm on a Saturday.

The Harley shop used to open on a Sunday and close on Monday but they stopped this a year or more ago when the recession hit.

However they were open today, but that was due to the Harley thingy happening down here and they were probably hoping to sell some bikes and bling!

Besides - this everything open all weekend and public holidays - stuff that, I'm against it. Where's the family time now days for the poor buggers working retail?

[Big Dave]

The main reason is the people who work in them have lives outside the bike shop. A lot of them go for a ride.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

Bloody hell - a lot of replies very quickly.

Seems like a bit of a sensitive question though. Not trying to push anyones buttons - just trying to understand why.

Maybe I'm thinking a bit too corporate - I suppose bike shops are run by people with a passion for their work (where as you couldn't say the same of a harvey norman manager).

Plus - I'm not bitching - I can take the time to get to a couple of shops nearby during the week. Question is more out of interest.

I'd think the approach the Christchurch Harley shop took (open on weekend closed one day of the week) would make more sense.

[Motu]

Well that's just a selfish attitude,if they aren't open 24/7 they deserve to go bust.

[Hitcher]

No motorcycle shops in Wellington open on Sundays. The closest motorcycle Sunday shopping is ANZA in Palmerston North, thanks to the associated car yard business. Hop on your bike and go for a ride.

[FJRider]

Perhaps when bikers buy more stuff IN motorcycle shops ... instead of on "trade me" or similar internet sites, they could afford to open all weekend ...

[Pedrostt500]

Well that's just a selfish attitude,if they aren't open 24/7 they deserve to go bust.

They are also slack at mind reading, turning up at what ever country road, with the exact parts needed, and not wanting payment for 90 days or more.

[Brian d marge]

Ive been in working in the bike trade in Britain and in Japan and always have opened on Saturdays and Sundays

in fact OPEN anytime YOU the CUSTOMER wants me to open. ( yes midnight in the truck picking up one of my customers whose bike has stopped, or returning from the auctions after starting at 6 in the morning )

Its a concept called customer service , or work in other parts of the world.

( sorry but its true , should I reach for the flame suit now ??? )

You Have to GO out there and get business ,

Stephen

oh I forgot we are talking about the third world here,,,

carry on , remain closed , tickets for bread are available from the city hall on Tuesdays

[pritch]

Most bike shop personnel are keen bikers too, and are perhaps entitled to some time off to ride their bikes...?


Too true. I don't get the "shop til you drop" bullshit. People like Steven Tindle go on about people spending time with their kids. People who don't work in the Wherowhare presumably. How do you spell hypocrit?

There are now very few times when shops aren't open: Christmas Day, Good Friday, the morning of ANZAC Day?
And still there are politicians who want more.

Really, how thick do people need to be, to be unable to make their purchases on the 362.5 (?) days the shops are actually open ?

[Mikkel]

Ive been in working in the bike trade in Britain and in Japan and always have opened on Saturdays and Sundays

in fact OPEN anytime YOU the CUSTOMER wants me to open. ( yes midnight in the truck picking up one of my customers whose bike has stopped, or returning from the auctions after starting at 6 in the morning )

Its a concept called customer service , or work in other parts of the world.

( sorry but its true , should I reach for the flame suit now ??? )

You Have to GO out there and get business ,

Stephen

oh I forgot we are talking about the third world here,,,

carry on , remain closed , tickets for bread are available from the city hall on Tuesdays

Customer service works well - provided the customer realises and is happy about the fact that he has got to pay for it. Also, in order to provide 24/7 service you either need extreme dedication to the business - i.e. the proprietor doing it himself - or you need a business big enough to support significant staff rotation - i.e. employing more people than you really need to fill out the schedule.

Many Kiwis would be too tight to be wanting to pay the premium for such extra services.

[merv]

What I like when I am overseas in great countries like Aus and USA (laugh if you like) the shops seem to open late and close late though the bike shops aren't open all weekend from what I have seen. This makes a lot of sense to me. Office workers go in before 9 and go home at around 5, shop workers go in by 10 and stay until 7, 8 or 9pm. So they can hang out their washing before work (yeah right) drop off the kids at school etc while the office workers knock off early, get the shopping done, go and pick the kids up from creche or whatever and get the dinner on etc then the shop worker comes home all sweet I reckon.

I would just love the bike shops open until say 7pm at least so I can get what I want and then I wouldn't even care if they didn't open in the weekend - we could all go riding then. A few times I order my stuff from Malcolm at Econohonda just because its easier getting it delivered (by the right Courier) than waiting until Saturday to drive over to Motomart for example.

We definitely need better overlap in the times we can do things.

My pet hate are couriers. They come around to your house and leave a card because you are at work. What a waste of time. If its Courier Post they at least deliver it automatically on Saturday or you can pick it up at the depot. Other dorks don't deliver Saturday and they are in some god-forsaken place you have to pick up before 5pm or you have to give them another address to deliver to. WTF can't they just deliver when we are home like between 6pm and 8pm at night for example. The time and effort they waste cruising the empty 'burbs during the day is just plain ridiculous in my view. They should sharpen up their customer service.

[AllanB]

I'd think the approach the Christchurch Harley shop took (open on weekend closed one day of the week) would make more sense.


I always thought it was a bloody good idea, after all most customers are at work Mon- Fri anyway. I suspect it became a issue with servicing being closed Monday may have caused some headaches. I'll ask next time in in there.

[dipshit]

Most bike shops in NZ are stuck in 1981.

[Winston001]

There have been quite a number of bike shops close up and down New Zealand over the past 5 years - and you want the survivors to work longer hours??!! :shit:

Have a look around next time you are out in a city/suburban shopping street. Very few small shops open beyond Saturday morning.

[Brian d marge]

:slap: I knew I had it wrong

oh well I work for myself now:slap:

I always received me standard wage , Some places started at 9 until 6 or 7 or as is here in Japan 10 until whenever ( official close at 7 but,,,,,,,,,)

Last place I worked in was 10 until whenever and Tuesdays off

( and lick road clean wid tong )

Stephen ( who now works for himself and has just finished at 10.30 on sunday nite :slap:)

[kave]

The reason bike shops close on Sunday is that they are staffed by motorcycle enthusiasts as opposed to people who actually give a shit about customer service.

[YellowDog]

As a consumer it would be very useful to have bike shops open on the day I don't work. Especially when that is the day you may be doing some serious work on your bike and may need to get out of an emergency.

I did ask at Holeshot Takapuna as to why and receoved the same answer. We ride, we race, we love bikes. Sunday is our day!

Fair enough however the dealer open on Sundays will sell my bikes - me thinks.

I hear Pack & Save are thinking about stocking Suzukis :)

[Lurch]

What I like when I am overseas in great countries like Aus and USA (laugh if you like) the shops seem to open late and close late though the bike shops aren't open all weekend from what I have seen. This makes a lot of sense to me. Office workers go in before 9 and go home at around 5, shop workers go in by 10 and stay until 7, 8 or 9pm.

I agree, opening your retail store between 9am and 5pm on weekdays only like many shops do is one of the most dim ideas ever conceived. I would much rather that some stores such as the LBS would take a monday or tuesday or whatever weekday they like and open up for even a half day on Sunday.

[SS90]

After 15 years in the industry, I have to say "screw you all who think we should be open on weekends at all"

Enthusiast? maybe......slave? hell fuck no!

You want to come in to the bike shop and talk about bikes and drink coffee, ok, cool.

when do we get such an opportunity?

People who work in bike shops need their free time too, and sure, I appreciate it is an enthusiasts market, and provisions must be made.

But please never forget that the people who work there are (by in large) enthusiasts too, and as such, we require " a weekend" as well.

Like I say 15 years in the industry, and I had to move to Europe to FINALLY get weekends off.

Bah!

[ckai]

What I like when I am overseas in great countries like Aus and USA (laugh if you like) the shops seem to open late and close late though the bike shops aren't open all weekend from what I have seen. This makes a lot of sense to me. Office workers go in before 9 and go home at around 5, shop workers go in by 10 and stay until 7, 8 or 9pm. So they can hang out their washing before work (yeah right) drop off the kids at school etc while the office workers knock off early, get the shopping done, go and pick the kids up from creche or whatever and get the dinner on etc then the shop worker comes home all sweet I reckon.


Agree, this is a good idea. I know of one shop in the states that does this and people love it (closed Sunday's though). But if you have kids that are young and at school, you'll only see them 2 days a week. That'll be rough.

Personally, I think all shops should be closed at least one day a week. I've bitched a few times when someone hasn't been opened (e.g. either just closed at 1 on Saturday or for the whole Sunday) but I've learnt and gone in earlier next time.

Customer Service is one thing. Living for the customer is a bit too much. Especially when the customer is an office person who only weeks 5 days and when you want something on the 6th day they say "tough". A bit one sided? ;)

[Big Dave]

Another reason is working on Sundays is a complete PITA.
Good on them for not making their staff do that crap.

And also if it pisses Dipshit off it's got to be a good thing! :devil2:

[trustme]

Does anybody know what the best trading days at Cycletreads & Motomail are ? Just asking

[SS90]

If the market allowed them to close on the weekends, then it would likely be Friday.

Just like a Lawyer, or a Dentist, or the post office, or most car workshops, or anywhere else that requires a knowledgeable experienced staff....... Most retail business's don't qualify for this by the way.........

Basically pretty much anywhere a customer that comes into a bike shop on the weekend works during the week (demanding) them to be open to service their needs on their "day off"

[Robert Taylor]

Perhaps when bikers buy more stuff IN motorcycle shops ... instead of on "trade me" or similar internet sites, they could afford to open all weekend ...

EXACTLY. The whole deal that you mention is self perpetuating. With what I do ( suspension backup for distributor teams etc) I have recently completed 7 x 7 day weeks on the trot. Lots of pressure. Thats an extreme example and Id sure like some time at home well away from motorcycles. 5 day weeks would be great.

[HenryDorsetCase]

How do you spell hypocrit?


h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e I believe.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

No motorcycle shops in Wellington open on Sundays. The closest motorcycle Sunday shopping is ANZA in Palmerston North, thanks to the associated car yard business. Hop on your bike and go for a ride.

Good point - no shops open on sunday at all, half day (ish) closing on a saturday - just shows that I gave up trying to get to bike shops at the weekend a while back.

A lot of the comments so far have alluded to the consumer demanding that bike shops be open 7 days a week, a bit off the mark.
I think that consumers would prefer a bike shops to swap weekend day open for a week day closed (or - open later with a later finish as one comment stated). Not open more - just open at more consumer friendly hours. I am only talking about parts and sales here - service workshop is a different kettle of fish.

It all seems a bit self perpetuating to me:
bike shops compete against on-line importers (for gear/ parts) and private sales (for bikes),
bike shops can't afford to up staff (in order to open extra hours) (not sure if true have taken this from comments posted on here),
bike shops not open at consumer popular times
hence why the on-line importers are so popoular (always available) plus private sales usually go iout of their way to arrange viewing times.

Bike shops have one great advantage that on-line importers don't - you can try stuff on to make sure that it fits (for parts) and you get MTA guarantee (for bike sales).
And, while you are trying stuff they have the oppurtunity, to sell you other things. I for one have walked out of bike shops with stuff that I wasn't looking for when I went in. If it is about pricing then (apart from the obvious crazy flips in NZD rates) push the customer support angle. Most people are happy to spend slightly more if they trust the person - as opposed to an on-line entity.

The only time I get items on-line are:
When I can't get the item in NZ (happens a lot).
The difference between the NZ retail price and on-line price is too great (more than 15% diff would entice me to buy on-line).
There is a second hand bargain where the item is effectively as new.

This thread was just supposed to start a consumer point of view on the matter. I prefer buying from bike shops but just feel that the opening hours are a bit limiting.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Most bike shops in NZ are stuck in 1981.

Better than having your head stuck up your arse.

[Big Dave]

If I was selling ... I'd be out riding with the ... owners group on Sundays.

[Ixion]

What I like when I am overseas in great countries like Aus and USA (laugh if you like) the shops seem to open late and close late though the bike shops aren't open all weekend from what I have seen. This makes a lot of sense to me. Office workers go in before 9 and go home at around 5, shop workers go in by 10 and stay until 7, 8 or 9pm. So they can hang out their washing before work (yeah right) drop off the kids at school etc while the office workers knock off early, get the shopping done, go and pick the kids up from creche or whatever and get the dinner on etc then the shop worker comes home all sweet I reckon.

I would just love the bike shops open until say 7pm at least so I can get what I want and then I wouldn't even care if they didn't open in the weekend - we could all go riding then. A few times I order my stuff from Malcolm at Econohonda just because its easier getting it delivered (by the right Courier) than waiting until Saturday to drive over to Motomart for example.

We definitely need better overlap in the times we can do things.



Exactly so. Surely the whole point of retail is to be open when your customers are free to visit you? Which, for bikes shops, means being open when the customers are not at work!.

If your business depends on beneficiaries , then you can open 9 - 5 Mon - Fri. Beneficiaries have few time constariants.

But bike shops, I imagine, require customers with more disposable income. That means that the customers will mainly be shut away in their offices, factories etc during those times.

So, open when they are free to visit the shop. That doesn't mean working longer hours. Close when the customers are not likely to be there.

Myself, I am always going to be reluctant to take time off work to go to a bike shop. That leaves only Saturday morning - a time with many, many other calls upon it. The result - buying over the internet. Simply because, I can shop at the time that suits me, not the time that suits the shopkeeper. If you want my money - open at a time when I can be there.

Yet, the trade complain about people buying over the internet. None so blind ...



There have been quite a number of bike shops close up and down New Zealand over the past 5 years - and you want the survivors to work longer hours??!! :shit:

Have a look around next time you are out in a city/suburban shopping street. Very few small shops open beyond Saturday morning.

Perhaps they closed because they were never open when potential custoemr could attend them?

[kwaka_crasher]

I hear Pack & Save are thinking about stocking Suzukis :)

I don't believe you. They wouldn't lower themselves...

[Big Dave]

Here - I can say if for the salesmen.
Because at 3.30 on a Sunday afternoon, when your young family is at home, or your mates are all riding, and you haven't seen anybody but pimply faced goobers, who couldn't afford a motorcycle if they pooled their dole cheques, for the last four hours - and the only decent prospect you followed up has had the guts chewed out of the deal by a rival retailer desperate for turnover, you say fuck this for a joke.

[NighthawkNZ]

So they get at least half a day a week to go for a ride... ???

[Shaun]

EXACTLY. The whole deal that you mention is self perpetuating. With what I do ( suspension backup for distributor teams etc) I have recently completed 7 x 7 day weeks on the trot. Lots of pressure. Thats an extreme example and Id sure like some time at home well away from motorcycles. 5 day weeks would be great.



Get off here then, and get some work done

[merv]

To add to this, back when I started with bikes in the late 60's the big time for bike shops, and in fact all shops, was Friday nights until 9pm, then we started seeing shopping centres open on Thursday nights.

Once things freed up, the other shops started opening 7 days a week and dropped the late nights in many cases. That was about early 80's I think. However, the bike shops dropped the late nights but never went 7 days.

So back to my earlier comment, I don't expect them to be open 7 days and in fact wouldn't care if they closed in the weekend provided they gave me service at some time when I'm not stuck in the office. I don't even expect the 9pm Friday thing any more either, 7pm weekdays would be just fine.

[Big Dave]

Any salesman worth his commission would meet a suitably qualified and genuine purchaser outside normal trading hours, at a mutually convenient time, by appointment.

[merv]

That is true Dave, but spares etc. Weekend for me is a classic point, on Saturday I puncture the front tyre on my XR, luckily I have a spare tube at home so repair it around 5pm. Now I don't have a spare, so somehow I have to get myself to Motomart when they are open so I have a spare, especially before the CCA, or do I order one to be delivered at home from someone that does that kind of sales like MotoMail? If I did buy elsewhere, then I could be accused of not supporting the local business.

[Winston001]

So back to my earlier comment, I don't expect them to be open 7 days and in fact wouldn't care if they closed in the weekend provided they gave me service at some time when I'm not stuck in the office. I don't even expect the 9pm Friday thing any more either, 7pm weekdays would be just fine.

Mmmm.....so why aren't you in the office on Sunday, every Sunday? And in the office until 7:00pm every night?

[Ixion]

..

Any salesman worth his commission would meet a suitably qualified and genuine purchaser outside normal trading hours, at a mutually convenient time, by appointment.

How do I know if I am a genuine purchaser until I can get a chance to see what's on offer? Peering in the window of the closed shop doesn't really cut it.

And spares are the biggest issue.

Start a job Saturday. oh oh the wozzaname is worn out. Do I have time to rush to the shop to buy/order one before noon. Probably not. That means

either i order off the internet, by next Saturday it'll be here or
wait until next Saturday then get up early and go to the bike shop. Who probably don't have it in stock so that's another weekend wasted.

Guess which one I'll do.

Merv is absolutely right about late nights. If they were open until 8pm (just one night a week even) , that'd work for me. Repco get a LOT of business from me that Supercheap miss out on - just cos Repco are open till 7pm. Don't expect the staff to work longer hours - I often start at 10, finish at 7. Not everyone wants to start work at 9am. And are bikes shops REALLY that busy between 9 and 11?

Bike shops just don't seem interested in customers that have a job. Which is odd, cos they're the ones with money. I guess maybe they're focused on the lawyers and dentists who can take time off whenever they want for a trip to the bike shop during the day.

[mynameis]

Just never made sense, you don't see harvey norman or dick smith closing early on a sunday (just comparing some retailers).

It just seems like a really strange business model to me. At first I thought they closed to allow for shop organised rides but this doesn't seem to be the case.




Maybe I'm thinking a bit too corporate - I suppose bike shops are run by people with a passion for their work (where as you couldn't say the same of a harvey norman manager).



All for corporate thinking and analysing business models when you're comparing Dick Smiths and Harvey Norman to Bike Shops and SHOP organised rides :lol:

Great business accumen :D

[Ixion]

Mmmm.....so why aren't you in the office on Sunday, every Sunday? And in the office until 7:00pm every night?

I am. Many Sundays. And most evenings. But if I'm at work Sunday, I take Monday off (or Friday). If I'm there at 7, I start appropriately later the next morning. (infuriatingly, even a late start doesn't give me time to ride to the bike shop, do business, and then ride to work and get there by 9:30. )

[Big Dave]

You can order online from a variety of local parts departments. Some wholesalers even offer database access and 'speedy local delivery'.

[Coldrider]

:lol:


Just never made sense, you don't see harvey norman or dick smith closing early on a sunday (just comparing some retailers).

It just seems like a really strange business model to me. At first I thought they closed to allow for shop organised rides but this doesn't seem to be the case.
Following these business models I guess with interest free, no depost and nothing to pay for 36 months, the bike shops would never be able to hold enough stock of VFR1200's to meet demand.

[ukusa]

Most bike shops in NZ are stuck in 1981.

if that was the case, they wouldn't be open Saturday either! (except New Brighton in Ch-Ch).

[Big Dave]

I am. Many Sundays. And most evenings. But if I'm at work Sunday,

You are also old and bemoan Publicly that you have lost it!

[Ixion]

You can order online from a variety of local parts departments. Some wholesalers even offer database access and 'speedy local delivery'.

Yes, order online. Tht's pretty much what i do nowadays. Haven't been in a bike shop in a long time. But, if I'm going to order on line, then reality is that I have the entire world to order from.Takes no longer to get aprts from the US than from Auckland, mostly. Plus much less likelihood of being tempted into an unplanned purchase.

Really, if on-line is the new business model for bikes, why bother with shops at all? Have an online store, that works for parts and accessories, and for bikes, fill in the form and the salesman berings it round to show yuou. No rent to pay.

[Big Dave]

Ywhy bother with shops at all? .

The time and overheads it would take to do the number of presentations necessary to close a sale preclude. In most games if you are converting one out of seven it's a good wicket.

Stock still has to be stored, prepared and serviced.

[Muppet]

Stop your bitching - there are no motorcycle shops open on a Sunday in Christchurch and they all close by 1.00pm on a Saturday.

The Harley shop used to open on a Sunday and close on Monday but they stopped this a year or more ago when the recession hit.

However they were open today, but that was due to the Harley thingy happening down here and they were probably hoping to sell some bikes and bling!

Besides - this everything open all weekend and public holidays - stuff that, I'm against it. Where's the family time now days for the poor buggers working retail?

Damn straight! Well said.

[Ixion]

The time and overheads it would take to do the number of presentations necessary to close a sale preclude. In most games if you are converting one out of seven it's a good wicket.

Stock still has to be stored, prepared and serviced.

But people never get to the shops to be presentationed. Cos the shops are never open except when people with money are at work. So they buy online. Storage, that can be cheap warehousing, much cheaper than retain space.

[imdying]

My pet hate are couriers. They come around to your house and leave a card because you are at work. WTF can't they just deliver when we are home like between 6pm and 8pm at night for example.Why not address your parcels to somewhere that will have a receiver during business hours? I always have my delieveries sent to work, for example.

Exodus 20 covers most of the OPs original question... I have no idea what God would think about setting aside a weekday (as an alternative) for worship, rather than the traditional Sunday, but given the intention of such a commandment, I suspect that would be fine also :laugh: You can be sure someone would moan about it though.

I do know that opening an automotive related business between 8-10am on a Saturday morning is folly if you haven't got paperwork to do; Kiwis do like to indulge on a Saturday morning sleep in, and thus don't come in before 10am.

From my own perspective, if I were managing a bike shop, I would offer to the employees this schedule of work:
Tue-Fri: 10am-6:30pm
Sat: 12am-5pm
Sun: Closed

[Big Dave]

But people never get to the shops to be presentationed.

You need to get out more.

[Big Dave]

I think the couriers play a game - ring the doorbell and sprint to the van to see if they can split before you answer it.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

All for corporate thinking and analysing business models when you're comparing Dick Smiths and Harvey Norman to Bike Shops and SHOP organised rides :lol:

Great business accumen :D

I think that is the problem right there. No offence intened in using your observation to make a point here but:

Why are bike shops different to other retailers?

Most modern retailers gear their opening hours around their customers. No-one is suggesting bike shops open 24/7 (silly comment) but rather than being open on weekdays (I have been in at random times during a working day and it is usually just me and possibly another customer in there) why not switch the opening hours around to hours which are preferred by the majority of prospective customers.

Using electronic retailer comparisions was pretty close in my mind because:
Both import the goods, and are affectedheavily by the exchange rates.
Both face competition of direct importers (parrallel importers in the electronics industry) and the second hand (trade me) market.
Both sell relatively big ticket items (some of those TVs cost more than some new bikes - but this comment is more in relation to gear and parts). Hence why both offer finance on decent sized deals.

I sound like I might be a bit bike shop bashing here but I'm really not. As I said I prefer to walk into a shop and try on merchandise before I buy, rather than get an e-mail telling me of when I can expect delivery. I just wonder why I can't go into a bike shop at the weekend when other (non-bike) stores are still open (and really busy).

[Ixion]

...
I do know that opening an automotive related business between 8-10am on a Saturday morning is folly if you haven't got paperwork to do; Kiwis do like to indulge on a Saturday morning sleep in, and thus don't come in before 10am.

From my own perspective, if I were managing a bike shop, I would offer to the employees this schedule of work:
Tue-Fri: 10am-6:30pm
Sat: 12am-5pm
Sun: Closed

Now, THOSE hours would work splendidly for me. Evening to rush in on way home from work and order stuff. Saturday afternoon (after sleep in) to browse.

(BTW it's not justa sleepin that Kiwis like on Saturday morning)


You need to get out more.

No point. The shops are never open.

[KelvinAng]

Sat: 12am-5pm


You slave-driver! :blink: :laugh:

Yes a Saturday sleep-in would be nice. I've lost count of the number of Saturdays I've planned to wander the street of bike shops, only to decide against it because I woke up at 10 and they close at 12.

[Brian d marge]

Carry on

This Saturday Sunday thing really is a western mind set , Your in the Service industry as in SERVICE , You provide a service to YOUR customer

If most of your customers are farmers then you tailor your service to meet their needs

if they are office workers then go out and get their money out of their wallets

Anyway what do I care , is not my business and not my money , Im quite happy doing what I do , and what other people do isn't an issue

Stephen

who at 11 am in the morning has just finished his "Sunday morning Ixioning" now for a cup of coffee and let the show begin

( Get the music cranked up the cad going ,,,yeahaaa)

[Winston001]

..

Bike shops just don't seem interested in customers that have a job.....I guess maybe they're focused on the lawyers and dentists who can take time off whenever they want for a trip to the bike shop during the day.

Which is exactly as it should be Les. :D Can't have poor folks hanging around the mighty machines.

[Robert Taylor]

I have never worked this one out.

I did ask in a motorbike shop once and the reply was "we don't make enough money on a sunday to break even".

Surely more people are around to buy accessories and trial bikes on a sunday than on a week day?

Just never made sense, you don't see harvey norman or dick smith closing early on a sunday (just comparing some retailers).

It just seems like a really strange business model to me. At first I thought they closed to allow for shop organised rides but this doesn't seem to be the case.

Frankly, NZ is way oversubscibed with bike shops relative to our tiny population. That means too many struggle to make a decent profit and proof of that is how many you see come and go. The current strength of the $US and the relative ease of internet trading also perpetuates the whole issue.
We need a lot less shops that are stronger and will then have the turnover and profitability to have 7 day trading with staff rostering. And excellent staff of course.
But less shops will mean having to travel further. Its difficult to have your cake and eat it too.

[dipshit]

I agree, opening your retail store between 9am and 5pm on weekdays only like many shops do is one of the most dim ideas ever conceived.

But your typical NZ bike shop doesn't want "customers" coming in and disrupting their busy day of important work running a bike shop. We are more of an inconvenient nuisance for them.

[dipshit]

After 15 years in the industry, I have to say "screw you all who think we should be open on weekends at all"

Enthusiast? maybe......slave? hell fuck no!

You want to come in to the bike shop and talk about bikes and drink coffee, ok, cool.

when do we get such an opportunity?

You've never heard of a roster system...???

Gee... the place I work at operates 24/7, 365 days a year and yet everybody still gets plenty of time off.

[dipshit]

Frankly, NZ is way oversubscibed with bike shops relative to our tiny population.


Precisely. So could all the useless bike shops with their useless mechanics kindly fuck off and die.

[mynameis]

I think that is the problem right there. No offence intened in using your observation to make a point here but:

Why are bike shops different to other retailers?

Most modern retailers gear their opening hours around their customers. No-one is suggesting bike shops open 24/7 (silly comment) but rather than being open on weekdays (I have been in at random times during a working day and it is usually just me and possibly another customer in there) why not switch the opening hours around to hours which are preferred by the majority of prospective customers.

Using electronic retailer comparisions was pretty close in my mind because:
Both import the goods, and are affectedheavily by the exchange rates.
Both face competition of direct importers (parrallel importers in the electronics industry) and the second hand (trade me) market.
Both sell relatively big ticket items (some of those TVs cost more than some new bikes - but this comment is more in relation to gear and parts). Hence why both offer finance on decent sized deals.

I sound like I might be a bit bike shop bashing here but I'm really not. As I said I prefer to walk into a shop and try on merchandise before I buy, rather than get an e-mail telling me of when I can expect delivery. I just wonder why I can't go into a bike shop at the weekend when other (non-bike) stores are still open (and really busy).

All well to pull out a whole bunch of stats and make comparisons in a little bit of detail but you've missed the mark big time and missed out a few critical aspects which pretty much makes your comparison meaningless.

1) DSE and Harvey Norman sell Electronic goods which pretty much everyone uses these days hence
2) The foot traffic/volume of sales is much more higher as it serves a much larger sector unlike bikers who make up bugger all of the pop.

Nice try though.

Could you be assuming that majority of the customers would like shops to be open on Sat and Sun and closed two middle week days?

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

All well to pull out a whole bunch of stats and make comparisons in a little bit of detail but you've missed the mark big time and missed out a few critical aspects which pretty much makes your comparison meaningless.

1) DSE and Harvey Norman sell Electronic goods which pretty much everyone uses these days hence
2) The foot traffic/volume of sales is much more higher as it serves a much larger sector unlike bikers who make up bugger all of the pop.

Nice try though.

Could you be assuming that majority of the customers would like shops to be open on Sat and Sun and closed two middle week days?

Tearing down is much easier than building up - what would you suggest as a comparison?

I think you are focusing too much upon scale of operation rather than the customer demographic. I would say that the demographic for electronics customers is not too far off the mark from bike shop customers (obviously not an exact match but good enough for the purpose of estimating customer preferred opening hours).

[stevo2001]

Here in Denver,Colorado pretty much all bike shops are closed Sunday and 99% on Monday.I don't get the being closed on Monday thing.I know they deserve 2 days off and all,but just rotate the staff days off or something.On Tuesdays they are busy as all get go.

[The Pastor]

I have never worked this one out.

I did ask in a motorbike shop once and the reply was "we don't make enough money on a sunday to break even".

Surely more people are around to buy accessories and trial bikes on a sunday than on a week day?

Just never made sense, you don't see harvey norman or dick smith closing early on a sunday (just comparing some retailers).

It just seems like a really strange business model to me. At first I thought they closed to allow for shop organised rides but this doesn't seem to be the case.

i agree, it makes it really hard to go round all the dealers in 1 weekend. no im not going to take time off work to spend my money in their store.


Most bike shop personnel are keen bikers too, and are perhaps entitled to some time off to ride their bikes...?

Here in Dunedin, all the bike shops are open Saturday mornings only, closed the rest of the weekend. I've got no problem with that at all.

hire weekend only staff



Besides - this everything open all weekend and public holidays - stuff that, I'm against it. Where's the family time now days for the poor buggers working retail?

hire weekend only staff



The main reason is the people who work in them have lives outside the bike shop. A lot of them go for a ride.

hire weekend only staff


Perhaps when bikers buy more stuff IN motorcycle shops ... instead of on "trade me" or similar internet sites, they could afford to open all weekend ...

this is a vaild point, however if i cant get to the damn store, where dose that leave me? the internet. Why can't the shops figure out a way to compete with the internet (i.e., open longer hours, easy to get to, knowledgeable staff, good mechanics, good supply of accessories)


Ive been in working in the bike trade in Britain and in Japan and always have opened on Saturdays and Sundays

in fact OPEN anytime YOU the CUSTOMER wants me to open. ( yes midnight in the truck picking up one of my customers whose bike has stopped, or returning from the auctions after starting at 6 in the morning )

Its a concept called customer service , or work in other parts of the world.

( sorry but its true , should I reach for the flame suit now ??? )

You Have to GO out there and get business ,

Stephen

oh I forgot we are talking about the third world here,,,

carry on , remain closed , tickets for bread are available from the city hall on Tuesdays

Agree with you 100%


Too true. I don't get the "shop til you drop" bullshit. People like Steven Tindle go on about people spending time with their kids. People who don't work in the Wherowhare presumably. How do you spell hypocrit?

There are now very few times when shops aren't open: Christmas Day, Good Friday, the morning of ANZAC Day?
And still there are politicians who want more.

Really, how thick do people need to be, to be unable to make their purchases on the 362.5 (?) days the shops are actually open ?

not sure if you're talking about bike shops here or supermarkets? The issue here is the time in the weekend (retails prime time) that they are open for.


What I like when I am overseas in great countries like Aus and USA (laugh if you like) the shops seem to open late and close late though the bike shops aren't open all weekend from what I have seen. This makes a lot of sense to me. Office workers go in before 9 and go home at around 5, shop workers go in by 10 and stay until 7, 8 or 9pm. So they can hang out their washing before work (yeah right) drop off the kids at school etc while the office workers knock off early, get the shopping done, go and pick the kids up from creche or whatever and get the dinner on etc then the shop worker comes home all sweet I reckon.

I would just love the bike shops open until say 7pm at least so I can get what I want and then I wouldn't even care if they didn't open in the weekend - we could all go riding then. A few times I order my stuff from Malcolm at Econohonda just because its easier getting it delivered (by the right Courier) than waiting until Saturday to drive over to Motomart for example.

We definitely need better overlap in the times we can do things.

My pet hate are couriers. They come around to your house and leave a card because you are at work. What a waste of time. If its Courier Post they at least deliver it automatically on Saturday or you can pick it up at the depot. Other dorks don't deliver Saturday and they are in some god-forsaken place you have to pick up before 5pm or you have to give them another address to deliver to. WTF can't they just deliver when we are home like between 6pm and 8pm at night for example. The time and effort they waste cruising the empty 'burbs during the day is just plain ridiculous in my view. They should sharpen up their customer service.

thats a great alterative / idea about later weekday nights - it'd be much easier for me to get to a shop after 7pm than to somehow get time off during the day.


Most bike shops in NZ are stuck in 1981.

Couldn't. Agree. More.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Precisely. So could all the useless bike shops with their useless mechanics kindly fuck off and die.

I bet some guy that works in a motorcycle shop fucked your girlfriend, and was probably much better at it. You sure are one bitter tossbag.

[Big Dave]

>>hire weekend only staff<<
Beahahahaha! Yeah - lets get some University Students in. It'll be great.


>>your girlfriend!<<
Bwahahahaha!

[R1madness]

Stop your bitching - there are no motorcycle shops open on a Sunday in Christchurch and they all close by 1.00pm on a Saturday.

The Harley shop used to open on a Sunday and close on Monday but they stopped this a year or more ago when the recession hit.

However they were open today, but that was due to the Harley thingy happening down here and they were probably hoping to sell some bikes and bling!

Besides - this everything open all weekend and public holidays - stuff that, I'm against it. Where's the family time now days for the poor buggers working retail?

We used to be open on Sunday (for about 4 years) but it was not worth it. We are still open until 4pm on Saturday though.

Actually here is my full hours list

Monday workshop only (sales by appointment) 8am-5pm
Tuesday workshop and store 8am-5pm
Wed Workshop and store 8am-6pm
Thursday Workshop and store 8am-6pm
Friday workshop and store 8am-6pm
Sat store only 10am - 4pm

so other than a sunday (which i will not bother with sorry) what other hours do you think i need to be open? Surely 6 days a week is enough. That leaves me 1 day to have family time, go riding, do some home maintnaince, walk the dogs, have a BBq with my mates, etc.

As for hire specialist weekend staff thats a joke, you all say you want people with knowledge... when was the last time you got a good knowledgable partime salesperson at the warehouse???? or Dick smith? or Hallensteins?

[R1madness]

The reason bike shops close on Sunday is that they are staffed by motorcycle enthusiasts as opposed to people who actually give a shit about customer service.

I agree about shops being staffed by enthusiasts but to say we all give bad customer service is a crock of sh#t. I was out for a ride on Sat when i came across a crashed R6. I stopped to see if he was ok, he wasn't, i called an ambulance, stopped my ride, went home got my van, went back and loaded his bike, took it back to his house and did not ask for or expect payment from his distraut wife. All of this took me 2 1/2 hours. I hope he brings his bike to me for the repairs but thats not why i helped. Bad customer service? I dont think so...

[NordieBoy]

Nelson Motorcycle Centre only recently(ish) started opening on Sat 'till 5pm.
One of their busiest days.

Open Sat so riders can get last minute prep/spares for Sundays race.

Almost all the staff race in one form or another so Sunday opening is out.

[Ixion]

>>hire weekend only staff<<
Beahahahaha! Yeah - lets get some University Students in. It'll be great.




Or, hire some retired/semi retired bikers. Who have a shit load of experience, usually are pretty good at dealign with the public, have a good work ethic and loads out there would be glad to pick up a day or two days work to supplement the pension. And they don't care about working weekends cos they have the whole week off.

Sorted.

[Big Dave]

>>Or, hire some retired/semi retired bikers.<<

To take the commissions off the full time staff?

[Ixion]

>>Or, hire some retired/semi retired bikers.<<

To take the commissions off the full time staff?

Who don't want to work weekends. Can't have it both ways.

Reading this, two things come through very loud and clear.

One is that some bike shops DO open at hours that suit the public. Good for them.

Others, don't . And the overwhelming reason that comes across is "We just don't want to". That's fine, no-one should be forced to open their business when they don't want to.

But, the counter of that, is if you aren't interested in service, I don't have to give you my custom. This is the age of the global innertubes, I can get stuff from the States pretty much as easy as from the other side of town. Delivered to my door.

If you aren't going to inconvenience yourself by opening at hours when I can visit you, then I'm not going to inconvenience myself by visting at hours that don't suit me. My alternative is a click of the button. So, don't whine and moan about parallel imports and people buying over the net. You don't want to sell me stuff, I'll go else where. Simple as that.

[imdying]

I bet some guy that works in a motorcycle shop fucked your girlfriend, and was probably much better at it. You sure are one bitter tossbag.Don't worry, he's only talking about shops that produce 150hp dyno sheets for SV1000s.....

[Big Dave]

'Simply' Click the button from a local shop. There are several locally run sites where part of your money at least stays in the NZ industry. Open 24 hours.

here's a good one for gear that employs several KBers:
http://www.motomail.co.nz/

Here's another for example. Major Kiwi Rider Advertiser:
http://www.roadguide.co.nz/

And nice bikes here: Cheap KTMS too
http://www.amps.co.nz/

[Crasherfromwayback]

Don't worry, he's only talking about shops that produce 150hp dyno sheets for SV1000s.....

Doesn't matter if you produce a dyno sheet for an SV showing 180...as long as it goes out showing 187...it's all good.

[onearmedbandit]

Here - I can say if for the salesmen.
Because at 3.30 on a Sunday afternoon, when your young family is at home, or your mates are all riding, and you haven't seen anybody but pimply faced goobers, who couldn't afford a motorcycle if they pooled their dole cheques, for the last four hours - and the only decent prospect you followed up has had the guts chewed out of the deal by a rival retailer desperate for turnover, you say fuck this for a joke.

Been there, done that. And it is shite. And that's in the car industry (luckily the bike shop I worked for once closed an 12pm Saturday and reopened Monday.


Most bike shops in NZ are stuck in 1981.

I remember when Sundays were a family day, would've been around that time. Grandparents would visit, kids would play together, people would socialise. Now that we want 24/7 shopping family time has dropped off dramatically.


Any salesman worth his commission would meet a suitably qualified and genuine purchaser outside normal trading hours, at a mutually convenient time, by appointment.

Done that plenty of times too. It's great, because it's at the convenience of both the buyer and seller.


But your typical NZ bike shop doesn't want "customers" coming in and disrupting their busy day of important work running a bike shop. We are more of an inconvenient nuisance for them.

Hmmm, I definitely don't get that response. Maybe it's not the bike shops...

You've never heard of a roster system...???

Gee... the place I work at operates 24/7, 365 days a year and yet everybody still gets plenty of time off.

You want a small business owner to increase his overheads and risk further just so a few people can go shopping on Sunday?

Precisely. So could all the useless bike shops with their useless mechanics kindly fuck off and die.

The useless ones typically have already. Once again, may I suggest the fault doesn't actually lie with the bike shops.


All well to pull out a whole bunch of stats and make comparisons in a little bit of detail but you've missed the mark big time and missed out a few critical aspects which pretty much makes your comparison meaningless.

1) DSE and Harvey Norman sell Electronic goods which pretty much everyone uses these days hence
2) The foot traffic/volume of sales is much more higher as it serves a much larger sector unlike bikers who make up bugger all of the pop.

Nice try though.

Could you be assuming that majority of the customers would like shops to be open on Sat and Sun and closed two middle week days?

I've worked in both vehicle and electronic goods sales and agree completely. On a slow Sunday in electronics retail we would maybe make only 20-30 sales, everything from mp3 players through to large screen TV's or whiteware. On a slow Sunday in vehicle Sales (and I've worked on yards that have turnover of 120+units/mth) we might see 3 people. Have 1 test drive. And no sales.


Tearing down is much easier than building up - what would you suggest as a comparison?

I think you are focusing too much upon scale of operation rather than the customer demographic. I would say that the demographic for electronics customers is not too far off the mark from bike shop customers (obviously not an exact match but good enough for the purpose of estimating customer preferred opening hours).

I've worked in both, and the demographic (age, income, etc) are vastly different. Of course there is cross over, but they are wildly apart.



hire weekend only staff


Not as easy as it sounds. Salesperson A works with a client in the previous week, client comes in on Sunday and does deal with first salesperson he sees. Years ago there was a thing called customer loyalty, but that's now a dying thing (not only a change in customer attitudes but also poor staffing practices by some employers). I'm not above saying that I consider myself an above average salesperson, so do my peers and my employer, and I get a lot of repeat business and referrals. However there are still customers out there that don't give really consider that the 3 hrs of informing them you did in the previous week has actually cost the salesperson in time off the floor. And when that shit happens it can cause morale issues within the company if not handled correctly. As an employer you don't want your top flight guys looking elsewhere.



Why can't the shops figure out a way to compete with the internet (i.e., open longer hours, easy to get to, knowledgeable staff, good mechanics, good supply of accessories)

Because the internet never sleeps.
I've had more 'informed' knowledge from going and talking to people in the business then reading someones opinion from America.
Because it costs money to hold all accessories. A lot that won't sell at full retail, so you have to eventually drop the price to just above cost. Then it goes in the bargain bin, at a loss. So you're actually paying to sell something. All because a few people wanted every colour of knee slider ever made.










Or, hire some retired/semi retired bikers. Who have a shit load of experience, usually are pretty good at dealign with the public, have a good work ethic and loads out there would be glad to pick up a day or two days work to supplement the pension. And they don't care about working weekends cos they have the whole week off.

Sorted.

Not that they have anything better to do with their weekends with rides/family/etc.


>>Or, hire some retired/semi retired bikers.<<

To take the commissions off the full time staff?

I remember when an employer considered doing that. The fact he'd need to also find new weekly staff made him reconsider.


Who don't want to work weekends. Can't have it both ways.

Reading this, two things come through very loud and clear.

One is that some bike shops DO open at hours that suit the public. Good for them.

Others, don't . And the overwhelming reason that comes across is "We just don't want to". That's fine, no-one should be forced to open their business when they don't want to.

But, the counter of that, is if you aren't interested in service, I don't have to give you my custom. This is the age of the global innertubes, I can get stuff from the States pretty much as easy as from the other side of town. Delivered to my door.

If you aren't going to inconvenience yourself by opening at hours when I can visit you, then I'm not going to inconvenience myself by visting at hours that don't suit me. My alternative is a click of the button. So, don't whine and moan about parallel imports and people buying over the net. You don't want to sell me stuff, I'll go else where. Simple as that.

Following that argument, why aren't you doing just so? Instead of whinning and moaning on the internet. You know, you can't please all the people all the time. It's their business, their decision, just like it's your money and your decision.

[scott411]

there was a good article in a retailers magazine speaking about Hastings of all places, a smaller retailer was saying that the quality of staff apply for jobs dropped alot when working sundays was advertised as part of the job, this was as some pressure was coming on as alot of big box retail had moved into town and they were opening sundays,

speaking from experience, most of the guys that work in bike shops are enthusists, so like to go riding and racing on sundays when most of the events are run, i know i still sort of work sundays at events, (i sometimes even get to ride in them)

the mention of putting part timers in to cover them will not work in a lot of jobs, esp in parts where the knowledge level required of where to buy stuff form, the features etc of gear is pretty vast, its a tough decision but sometimes, but alot the owners take their and there employees lifestyle ahead of all out profit, which is not a bad thing overall,

as a side, when i stayed in a small town in belguim a few years ago, i found it werid that all shops closed for lunch from 12-1, then all the cafe's etc closed for lunch between 1-2, although it seemed weird at the time, it worked because everyone was the same (and all motorcycle shops closed wednesday afternoon so the staff could go riding pretty cool i thought) we are much in teh american 24 hour culture, were it is i want it know so you should open,

[DEATH_INC.]

I got sick of reading through all the shit, but feel then need to reply to this.........
Most of you have missed the important fact that many have Families, which are far a more important part of your life than a few lazy bastards that can't be bothered organising themselves enough to get shit for themselves.
How the hell did you guys survive before 7 day trading?????
This mindset is fucking the lives of many, both here and overseas too.
It won't end, the work week is getting longer and longer for the average joe, and it will keep doing so till people wake up to themselves.
And don't think because you have a cushie office job it won't get you eventually too, and when we all work 24/7 (like RT does) then when are you gonna go get your bike parts????
We used to survive just fine with shops open 9-5, 5 days a week once not that long ago...

[imdying]

Doesn't matter if you produce a dyno sheet for an SV showing 180...as long as it goes out showing 187...it's all good.No, I guess some shops don't think that accuracy is actually important... tell them a few lies, they'll never find out :rolleyes:

[Crasherfromwayback]

No, I guess some shops don't think that accuracy is actually important... tell them a few lies, they'll never find out :rolleyes:

Nah...seat of the pants they'll know. Our dyno (and I'm assuming it's that you're taking a dig at) returns high numbers. But we can easily calculate real rear wheel numbers if that's what you want. Didn't stop Yoshimura Japan coming over to see it in action and being so impressed they ordered three themselves.

[onearmedbandit]

I got sick of reading through all the shit, but feel then need to reply to this.........
Most of you have missed the important fact that many have Families, which are far a more important part of your life than a few lazy bastards that can't be bothered organising themselves enough to get shit for themselves.
How the hell did you guys survive before 7 day trading?????
This mindset is fucking the lives of many, both here and overseas too.
It won't end, the work week is getting longer and longer for the average joe, and it will keep doing so till people wake up to themselves.
And don't think because you have a cushie office job it won't get you eventually too, and when we all work 24/7 (like RT does) then when are you gonna go get your bike parts????
We used to survive just fine with shops open 9-5, 5 days a week once not that long ago...

+1. And 10char.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I got sick of reading through all the shit, but feel then need to reply to this.........
Most of you have missed the important fact that many have Families, which are far a more important part of your life than a few lazy bastards that can't be bothered organising themselves enough to get shit for themselves.
How the hell did you guys survive before 7 day trading?????
This mindset is fucking the lives of many, both here and overseas too.
It won't end, the work week is getting longer and longer for the average joe, and it will keep doing so till people wake up to themselves.
And don't think because you have a cushie office job it won't get you eventually too, and when we all work 24/7 (like RT does) then when are you gonna go get your bike parts????
We used to survive just fine with shops open 9-5, 5 days a week once not that long ago...

All too true mate

[imdying]

Nah...seat of the pants they'll know. Our dyno (and I'm assuming it's that you're taking a dig at) returns high numbers. But we can easily calculate real rear wheel numbers if that's what you want. Didn't stop Yoshimura Japan coming over to see it in action and being so impressed they ordered three themselves.Too hard to setup accurately, or just don't care?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Too hard to setup accurately, or just don't care?

Neither. More interested in getting improvements and results. Ask Brett Richmond. He came to us with his Shaft Motorcycles sponsored 883 Twinsport race bike, and paid for it out of his own pocket after getting dusted off by my 883.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

Lots and lots of replies posted to my orginal question , of which I do apologise for getting the day wrong. Thanks to everyone for replying - it has made for a very interesting read.

But, I think I have got my answer.

I reckon it can be summed up in one sentence:
"That's the way we've been doing it for a while and no-one else in our industry attempts to out do the competition so everyone is happy".

In economics this situation is referred to as a monopolistically competitive industry, linky helps to explain for those interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopolistic_competition
Here the enviroment is around non-outperformance rather than profit making. And seems to happen at a localised level with small differences (in opening hours) between regions.

This type of economic situation usually leads to a downturn in customer demand (the industry is effectively eroded over time and consumer brand loyalty has to be heavily relied upon). The bike industry has seen this themselves with prospective consumers turning to other retail alternatives in order to purchase goods (internet based mainly).

In fact, in my opinion, the current practice leaves the door wide open for new competitors with modern business practices. But with the global financial climate still a bit unsteady I don't think the industry needs to worry about new entrants just now.

A lot of the replies have also been normal "change adverse" responses where socio-economic extremes are cited, such as: having bike shops open 24/7; the threat of losing all existing staff, if weekend staff were introduced; degradation of the family structure outside of the workplace if opening hours are altered; etc..

The main change adverse argument which has come up is the "We can't be compared to any other industry because we are unique". Hate to say it but pretty much every industry feels this way and there are very few which truly are. Even if an industry is currently unique, it will not remain that way - due to either product, communication, logistical or consumer changes.
I even put up a straw-man industry comparison (electronic retailers) - this was refuted by at least two people, but an invite for anyone to nominate another industry failed to attract any responses.

I think the industry needs to accept that it is applying an antiquated approach to opening hours whilst still trying to attract modern consumers. Modern consumers are, rightly or wrongly, used to having their needs serviced upon their terms. It is the old adage that "the customer is always right".

I again say that I like bike shops. But whilst I think the customer experience within a bike shop is very good, the customer opportunity to have that experience is poor - due to the experience mainly being available when the consumer is not.

But opening for more hours would, again in my opinion, increase the oppurtunity but decrease the experience (as staff morale declines, or new inexprienced staff are brought in to cover the extended hours). So I would not propose an increase in working hours as a viable solution (it also realises some of the socio-economic arguments listed above).

I would honestly suggest changing, not increasing, opening hours to tailor them closer to what the customer wants. Either later opening with later closing, closed a weekday but open Saturday afternoon or a hybrid of these.

Any changes won't instantly lead to hundreds of bikers with bulging wallets walking through your doors on a saturday afternoon but may well lead to a rise in the increase in sales over a longer period (while the consumer becomes fully aware of the changes in opening hours and adapts to them).
Long term benefits could lead to increased product ranges being available to the customer and increased profit to the industry.

Anyway, write all of this off as hogwash if you want - I did try to check out my facts as much as I can do from the comfort of my computer. This is just a modern consumer giving the industry his honest opinion.

Thanks again for all the replies.

[Robert Taylor]

Doesn't matter if you produce a dyno sheet for an SV showing 180...as long as it goes out showing 187...it's all good.

Exactly right, what is often missed is that engine dynos are comparators. As long as you are using the same dyno, the same operator and the same pedantic warm up, heat soak and run procedures you are going to get excellent repeatability and wont be fooling yourself. It wouldnt matter if the dyno was calibrated in units of bananas, its still only a bloody comparator.
Moreover I think dyno sheets and their bragging rights are very often akin to men comparing the size of their wedding tackle or women comparing the size of their feet enshading devices....
Big horsepower also doesnt always equate to race wins either, as the Pirelli slogan goes ''horsepower is nothing without control''

[Ixion]

I got sick of reading through all the shit, but feel then need to reply to this.........
Most of you have missed the important fact that many have Families, which are far a more important part of your life than a few lazy bastards that can't be bothered organising themselves enough to get shit for themselves.
How the hell did you guys survive before 7 day trading?????
This mindset is fucking the lives of many, both here and overseas too.
It won't end, the work week is getting longer and longer for the average joe, and it will keep doing so till people wake up to themselves.
And don't think because you have a cushie office job it won't get you eventually too, and when we all work 24/7 (like RT does) then when are you gonna go get your bike parts????
We used to survive just fine with shops open 9-5, 5 days a week once not that long ago...

Nope. Not true. Never was a time in my lifetime when trading hours were 9 to 5 5 days a week.

Before weekend trading there was ALWAYS a late night. And that late night, the bike shops were CROWDED. To a degree never seen today.

That's what's gotten lost. As someone said - when weekend trading came in, most businesses said "Well, if we are going to open weekends, we will drop the late night". Fair enough.

But bike shops just said, "Oh good, we can drop the late night". Back then, the innertubes was in their infancy, so they got away with it. Now, the pidgeons are coming home to roost.

Fair enough too. Y' don't want my business (cos that is emphatically the message I'm receiving), that's OK. Don't need shops these days. but BLOODY STOP WITH THE WHINING about how hard done you are cos people order from overseas off the net. Or Trademe.

Yes, it's cheaper. But I wouldn't do it (or not near as often), if you were willing to sell me what I need. If you're not, then I'll go else where. And that elsewhere will be the net. If you're in business to go on rides, instead of sell stuff, well, that's your call. But stop whining that it's not fair cos people won't rearrange their lives and jobs to suit your riding calendar.

Trademe has pretty much knocked most secondhand and antique shops out of business. Easier for folk to buy off the net. I'm guessing in a few years time, most bike shops will ahve gone the same way.

[Big Dave]

It it was worth the effort - commerce would dictate that it would already be done.
Other industries may also be unique - just like everyone else.

[Morcs]

The best thing cycletreads ever did, was open on sundays.

Im sure thats both from a business and consumer point of view too.

Go figure.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Exactly right, what is often missed is that engine dynos are comparators. As long as you are using the same dyno, the same operator and the same pedantic warm up, heat soak and run procedures you are going to get excellent repeatability and wont be fooling yourself. It wouldnt matter if the dyno was calibrated in units of bananas, its still only a bloody comparator.
Moreover I think dyno sheets and their bragging rights are very often akin to men comparing the size of their wedding tackle or women comparing the size of their feet enshading devices....
Big horsepower also doesnt always equate to race wins either, as the Pirelli slogan goes ''horsepower is nothing without control''

Really easy to replicate things with our dyno, as we take the rear wheel out and drive a hydraulic pump. No wheelspin or slippage here. Torque is what we're after too..not outright HP.

[Big Dave]

>> BLOODY STOP WITH THE WHINING about how hard done you are cos people order from overseas off the net.<<

OK - If you fix the thing yourself, import your own replacement parts, get your own service data, and get your own advice about what to do when the parallel importer moves on, and don't bring it in here looking to trade it on something with backup either.

[Ixion]

Following that argument, why aren't you doing just so? Instead of whinning and moaning on the internet. You know, you can't please all the people all the time. It's their business, their decision, just like it's your money and your decision.

I am. But, I'd rather my money stayed in NZ. For lots of reasons. So , if I could get what I need locally I would. Even if it cost a bit more. But if I have to take 2 hours off work at a cost of $100 to go and buy a $20 part, then the effective cost is too high. I can probably get it delivered to my door for $15. And no time off work.

And then what happens, when I need the $500 part, I'll go overseas again cos I've got in the habit now. Cos the local bike shops just make it too hard to deal with them.

But, all that money going overseas is money that ISN'T going into Kiwis pockets. I'd prefer it to stay here. But the attitude of the trade makes it too hard to justify.

[Ixion]

>> BLOODY STOP WITH THE WHINING about how hard done you are cos people order from overseas off the net.<<

OK - If you fix the thing yourself, import your own replacement parts, get your own service data, and get your own advice about what to do when the parallel importer moves on.
Yep, yep, yep, and yep.

But it's really sales that's being discussed here. not service.

The guys who do bike SERVICE seem much more on the ball. Like that Motorcycle Doctor fellow - apparently he comes to the customer. He's got the idea.

And in the car service trade I've found no problem locating service people who can work with my schedule.

Sales is the area that seems firmly stuck in the twentieth century.

[merv]

We used to survive just fine with shops open 9-5, 5 days a week once not that long ago...

Way back then as I mentioned you are missing the fact they were open late night on Friday, at least they were in Napier where I was until the early 70's. Denill from this site ran the Honda shop then and me and my Bro's did the customary swing by his place and Jack Burns on Fridays. It resulted in a number of sales to our family at the time and that was also when we'd get our parts & accessories.

Then sure we saved the weekend for riding and I'm still happy with that.

Me, I'm not wanting 24/7, I just want some time where we can overlap. The hours mentioned in ChCh are coming close but I'm saying 7pm at least on one week night would suit me - 6pm is still a bit early.

[Big Dave]

>>The best thing cycletreads ever did, was open on sundays.<<

I though we were mainly talking about Vehicle sales.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Way back then as I mentioned you are missing the fact they were open late night on Friday, at least they were in Napier where I was until the early 70's. Denill from this site ran the Honda shop then and me and my Bro's did the customary swing by his place and Jack Burns on Fridays. It resulted in a number of sales to our family at the time and that was also when we'd get our parts & accessories.

Then sure we saved the weekend for riding and I'm still happy with that.

Me, I'm not wanting 24/7, I just want some time where we can overlap. The hours mentioned in ChCh are coming close but I'm saying 7pm at least on one week night would suit me - 6pm is still a bit early.

Problem is Merv...people have changed with the times too. I've worked in two bike shops that do a late Fri night. TOTAL waste of time. All you get now is pissed c*nts wanting to test ride your bikes...and kicking them over when you politely refuse.

[Big Dave]

Several retailers have forwarded me offers that they will pay Ixion NOT to shop in their store.

[CRF119]

Most bike shops are small, and i thought alot of them only opend half a day on saturday. To make it easy for the people that work all week and dont get the time to make it in they should do a late night.

Some hobby shops in Europe open at 1pm to 10pm so people can make it to them after work.

I work in retail and saturdays im closed at 12.30 on the dot no later. Weekends are most important for bike time :)

[Robert Taylor]

Really easy to replicate things with our dyno, as we take the rear wheel out and drive a hydraulic pump. No wheelspin or slippage here. Torque is what we're after too..not outright HP.

Yep, slippage is one of the big downfalls of Dynojet, also that the engineers lost control of that company many moons ago. The spec and concept of your dyno makes a whole load more sense.

[imdying]

Exactly right, what is often missed is that engine dynos are comparators. As long as you are using the same dyno, the same operator and the same pedantic warm up, heat soak and run procedures you are going to get excellent repeatability and wont be fooling yourself. It wouldnt matter if the dyno was calibrated in units of bananas, its still only a bloody comparator.Which is of course true, but one small point... How much confidence in your abilities do you think it instills in your customer if you produce a 150hp dyno reading for a 110hp bike? Or do you think the average customer is just going to think your a bunch of incompetent arseholes? I mean, if they can't correctly setup a dyno to produce a figure that is close to accurate, what are the chances that they'll be able to setup a bike?

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

>>The best thing cycletreads ever did, was open on sundays.<<

I though we were mainly talking about Vehicle sales.

Nope, the original question was in relation to bike shops - specifically including parts, gear and bike sales and excluding workshops.

[merv]

Problem is Merv...people have changed with the times too. I've worked in two bike shops that do a late Fri night. TOTAL waste of time. All you get now is pissed c*nts wanting to test ride your bikes...and kicking them over when you politely refuse.

Now you've probably hit the nail on the head, society has changed. How me and my Bro's behaved in say 1969 is so different than people that are the age we were then but now. Napier used to have everyone cruising Emerson street, arm on the door out the window of the Ford V8, MKI or MKII Zephyr etc and the bikers were the milkbar cowboys - well the drinking age was 21 and most people sort of behaved else they'd get a hiding from their old man and bseides until 1967 the pubs closed at 6pm.

I really did see the change came with that oil crisis of '74, an era was lost and never returned. By the time of the big numbers of bike sales in the 80's, no-one lived that pattern any more.

I can but live a dream huh! I'd still like to be able to get some stuff after work though even if we aren't doing our milkshakes and icecream while acting tough and eyeing up the chicks on the street coz we were too young to drink.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Which is of course true, but one small point... How much confidence in your abilities do you think it instills in your customer if you produce a 150hp dyno reading for a 110hp bike? Or do you think the average customer is just going to think your a bunch of incompetent arseholes? I mean, if they can't correctly setup a dyno to produce a figure that is close to accurate, what are the chances that they'll be able to setup a bike?

Not a problem. If you want us to use your valuable time simply telling you what sort of HP your bike makes...we can do that. We simply find most people actually want IMPROVEMENTS.

We must be doing something right too. Mine was by far the fastest 883 Twinsport bike out there till Brett bought his to us!

[imdying]

I didn't realise that using accurate figures precluded you from finding improvements.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I didn't realise that using accurate figures precluded you from finding improvements.

I'd say there's a shitload you don't realise.

[merv]

Pete is it a quiet day at the shop today coz we are all stuck in the office?

[onearmedbandit]

I am. But, I'd rather my money stayed in NZ. For lots of reasons. So , if I could get what I need locally I would. Even if it cost a bit more. But if I have to take 2 hours off work at a cost of $100 to go and buy a $20 part, then the effective cost is too high. I can probably get it delivered to my door for $15. And no time off work.

And then what happens, when I need the $500 part, I'll go overseas again cos I've got in the habit now. Cos the local bike shops just make it too hard to deal with them.

But, all that money going overseas is money that ISN'T going into Kiwis pockets. I'd prefer it to stay here. But the attitude of the trade makes it too hard to justify.

So I'm guessing you spend a little time on the intenet, maybe 5 minutes, maybe 5 hours looking for the best deal/advice/shipping times etc. Then you plug your credit card details in, or use paypal, and get the goods delivered from overseas. What is there stopping you from ringing your local bike store or dropping them an email and doing the same? Honest question.


Not a problem. If you want us to use your valuable time simply telling you what sort of HP your bike makes...we can do that. We simply find most people actually want IMPROVEMENTS.

We must be doing something right too. Mine was by far the fastest 883 Twinsport bike out there till Brett bought his to us!

Not wanting to get caught up in this side argument, and understanding that dyno results are comparative only on the day etc and therefore only a tool for measuring gains, but, if one dyno is out by say 10% and another is out by 30%, given the same conditions etc wouldn't the one that reads higher show a larger overall improvement?

[BoristheBiter]

You've never heard of a roster system...???

Gee... the place I work at operates 24/7, 365 days a year and yet everybody still gets plenty of time off.

I can't belive i had to read till post 61 for somone to say this.
When i worked for a car yard we all worked the weekend (full days) and two days off in the week, also we had 1 weekend off every 4 weeks and we could swap shifts if we wanted as long as at the end of the month the hours matched.

now with me working 6 days i would find it hard to get to an open shop if i wasn't the boss.
If the bike shops want to stay closed that is up to them it will just send more people to the shops that are and to online stores.

I myself like going though shops looking at what they have and what sales are on at the moment which is why i go to the shops that are open. why would i go out of my way to buy something from someone who is closed when i can get the same thing from someone who is open when i need them.

I wouldn't expect the service deptments to be open on the weekend and most salespeople can see if somthing is in stock for parts etc.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Not wanting to get caught up in this side argument, and understanding that dyno results are comparative only on the day etc and therefore only a tool for measuring gains, but, if one dyno is out by say 10% and another is out by 30%, given the same conditions etc wouldn't the one that reads higher show a larger overall improvement?

Generally mate...we're looking to rid the torque curve of flatspots and increase torque across the rev range. Sometimes outright HP figures change very little.

[onearmedbandit]

Generally mate...we're looking to rid the torque curve of flatspots and increase torque across the rev range. Sometimes outright HP figures change very little.

Very true mate. Recently had my bike dyno-tuned (running yoshi ems), went in showing a healthy 144 at the rear wheel and came out with 159. Doesn't mean squat, nor really does the extra 15hp up top. What really impressed was the smoothing of the torque curve, especially removing the big dip that the bike struggled to recover from around 8k. Now the graph looks very different, no hollows, and the bike pulls incredibly well up top (not that it really lacked before).

[Brian d marge]

ya cant hire old people

you know that , they smell funky and dribble .....

and there seems to be an unwritten law which precludes anyone over the age of 50 from getting a Job ,,,,,,, I heard it from a good authority , that these OLD people actually WANT to work , how strange is that

Stephen

[imdying]

I'd say there's a shitload you don't realise.Likewise... horsepower isn't some mythical thing, it's an actual measure of work, that it would be usual for a device designed to measure it to be calibrated closely (environmental factors aside) to give accurate figures isn't really that much to ask :rolleyes:

[Blew]

Nope, the original question was in relation to bike shops - specifically including parts, gear and bike sales and excluding workshops.

This discussion revolves around chassis dynamometer's and is intended to be informative and thought provoking. There are two types of chassis dynamometers on the market, inertia and loading. An inertia dynamometer (such as DynoJet) does not measure torque, but measures acceleration. A loading dynamometer applies resistance that is measured (using some type of strain gauge.)

The most often heard discussion is that what factor can be applied to rear wheel horsepower to reflect crankshaft horsepower. This is where we need to understand how the rear wheel horsepower number was derived. Since the DynoJet seems to be widely used and numbers quoted are those from a DynoJet, we are going to use them as our inertia dynamometer example.

First it is important to have an understanding of how DynoJet gets their horsepower numbers. Power in mechanical terms is the ability to accomplish a specified amount of work in a given amount of time. By definition, one horsepower is equal to applying a 550 pound force through a distance of 1 foot in one second. In real terms, it would take 1 HP to raise a 550 pound weight up 1 foot in 1 second. So to measure horsepower, we need to know force (in pounds) and velocity (in feet per second). Dynojet's inertial dynamometer measures power according to the terms just described. It measures velocity directly by measuring the time it takes to rotate two heavy steel drums one turn. It measures force at the surface of the drum by indirectly measuring it's acceleration. Acceleration is simply the difference in velocity at the surface of the drums from one revolution to the next. The force applied to the drums is calculated from acceleration using Newton's 2nd law, Force = Mass * Acceleration. Since the mass of the drums is know and acceleration has been measured, Power (horsepower) can now be calculated. Torque is then calculated using the horsepower number: Torque = Horsepower * 5252 / RPM.

Once they have these numbers a series of correction factors are applied, some made public, some hidden as proprietary secrets. The public correction factor is the SAE correction factor. This formula assumes a mechanical efficiency of 85%. The formula used is: Where: CF= 1.18 * (29.22/Bdo) * ((Square Root(To+460)/537)) – 0.18. To = Intake air temperature in degrees F, Bdo = Dry ambient absolute barometric pressure. This correction factor is meant to predict output in varying atmospheric conditions and is a +/- 7%. The proprietary correction factor is supposed to reflect the loss of power from the crankshaft to the rear wheels.

A Loading Dynamometer applies resistance to the dyne's roller(s) , typically using either a water brake or a current eddy brake. In either case, the amount of force is measure using a strain gauge. The measured force is torque which is a real, indisputable measurement of the actual output at the wheel. Horsepower than can be calculated: Hp = Trq * 5252 / RPM.

A Dynamometer can only measure actual power at the output location. Actual power produced AND delivered by an engine will be highest if measured at the crankshaft, lower at the transmission output shaft and even lower, but more meaningful, still, at the rear wheels. The power that you use is the power at the rear wheels. Some Dynamometer companies add to measured rear wheel power readings a factor that is based on ESTIMATED rear wheel power losses (under what power conditions? 3.0 ltr.? 5.0 ltr.? Under coasting conditions? with a 185/70/15 radial tire? a 335/35/18 radial tire? New heavy radial tire vs. worn old, light, racing tire? Who knows?) In short, there is NO meaningful "average" tire to get a correct rear tire power transmission loss measurement for all cars - so obviously, unless they actually measure the power lost in the rear tires, under driven load conditions, NO dyno company should BE ADDING incorrect power figures into the measured power. It's simply wrong. The fact that they add varying amounts of power to the actual, "true" amount of power delivered and measured to the surface of the drive roller creates a situation that makes it an onerous task to compare power figures from different brands of dynamometer systems. On simple inertial dynamometers, some (most) companies use an average for the inertial mass value of the engine, transmission, driveshaft, axles and rear wheels. This is saying that a 4 cylinder, 2.0 ltr. Porsche 914 has the same rotating mass and same rear wheels as a 8 cylinder, 5.0 ltr. Porsche 928 S+4. This simply is not so and wrong.

It's expensive to measure frictional losses in the engine and drivetrain, requiring the dyno to be able to drive the vehicle with engine off. Add the cost of a 50+hp electric motor, controlled power supply, etc. It's just not likely that $20,000 dyno will be equipped with that equipment. It is also common for dynamometer companies to add to the power readings by adding transmission and driveshaft losses back into the measured power readings. Some companies make a concerted effort try to measure frictional losses and, optionally, add the power to the measured readings. Other companies - some that would surprise you - say that it's not important and give a blanket, single factor for frictional losses in every engine. Some simply say that there is a meaningful "average" for every car,( 4 stroke/ 4 cylinder/ 4 speed transmission, 4 stroke/ 8 cylinder/ automatic transmission) and apply it to every car and that it is not a significant difference. Blanket estimates of "average" losses and corrections are, quite simply, incorrect. At the upper levels of the industry, (we are talking about $150,000 - $500,000 AC or DC 4 quadrant dynamometers) it is not tolerated - shouldn't be - and needn't be. There is a dyno company that actually has different versions of software that displays their own identical data files as different amounts of power depending on whether you use the DOS version or the Windows version of their software!!

True, rear wheel horsepower is the standard of measuring the power that is actually delivered to the rear wheels. It is honest, true, fair and duplicable. It is the ONLY standard that can be duplicated by the entire industry - regardless of the dyno manufacturer. From my experience and that of many others, when comparing True, rear wheel horsepower to DJHP you must apply a factor. It appears that this is a sliding scale based on horsepower but the best estimate is 1.05 to 1.21 (maybe higher). What this means is that for those of you trying to calculate what your crankshaft horsepower is based on DJHP, and are adding 15%, the most common number I hear, you are actually doubling (at least) the factor. Why? Because DJHP already has a puff number added into their DJHP. Lets say DJHP shows 200 hp and you add 15%, you get 230 hp crankshaft horsepower. In reality DJ has already added in 15 or 20% to their 200 DJHP number. How does this help us.? It does not, and is fact harmful to the many dynamometer test facilities that report only what the dyno actually measured. I can not tell you of the many discussions that we have had as to why the horsepower numbers we recorded lower than that of DJ. For those manufacturers that use DJHP as proof of their claims, can you imagine the shock your customers get when the horsepower number of a vehicle tested on a load bearing dyno do not come close to their claim.

Proper tuning, especially on highly modified engines greatly affect the power difference. Due to the fact that the DJ dyno's sweep so quickly on sweep hp tests, there is no way to properly tune a fuel map. What you get is the acceleration and full throttle maps both triggered during the test, ending up over-rich, affecting the horsepower. The other factor that needs to be taken into account is that DJ dynos assume that every vehicle has the same rotating mass - they don't - and that disregard is another reason why the hp conversion figures are different. The most accurate measurement of rear wheel horsepower is in Steady State Mode (inertia is not a factor in power equation.) The inertial mass changes on each car affects the DJ power, but not the true, rear wheel horsepower. There's another message in the above example, besides the average true, rear wheel horsepower to DJHP conversion factor - It's up to the more experienced reader to figure it out.

Chassis dyne HP, What is it? What to call it? DynoJet = "DJHP". It's not really proper to call "DJHP" "rwhp", as neither the Mustang, DynoJet, Fuchs, Superflow or Land and Sea will necessarily produce the same numbers as a DJ dyno, except by luck - and the whole idea of true, rear wheel horsepower is that EVERY dyno manufacturer HAS the capability to provide those numbers! The Superflow chassis dynes, the Mustang, Land and Sea are all capable of measuring power in steady state mode and producing the same numbers - they all measure torque. Torque x rpm / 5252 = horsepower. We've not diddled with physics! The only factor that is added to the measured reading, in true, rear wheel horsepower, is the additional energy (dyne parasitics) required to spin the dyno(s) roller to whatever speed the roller is turning at - logical, proper and required for any measuring instrument, torque x rpm / 5252 = horsepower + parasitic power = true, rear wheel horsepower.

Chassis dyne HP, What can inflate HP readings on a dyno, but not really make more engine power in the real world? A few things can affect HP when using inertia dynos (not a dyne in Steady State Mode) to measure power (what else would you do??:-): Changing to light, worn race rear tires will improve power output on an inertia dyno, but, not improve real world top speed. A heavier (brand new street) tire that replaced the above, light, worn tire, will decrease measured power on an inertia dyno, but not decrease real world top speed. Lighter wheels are a good thing! Better acceleration in lower gears, especially 1st and 2nd (accelerating less inertial mass!). Better handling is possible, too! Driving hard on worn, light tires is foolish and is not being recommended.

Problems with Inertia dyno test procedure and fuel injected vehicles: A Sweep Test (hold throttle wide open and sweep from low rpm to high rpm) will often trigger the Acceleration Fuel Map, along with the Main Fuel Map, causing the fuel mixture readings to indicate dyno operator that the motor is overly rich. This would cause the tuner to lean out the main fuel map. Of course, in the real world, upper gears, the acceleration rate of the engine is much slower than what they tested, doesn't trigger the Acceleration Fuel Map, and the engine ends up a lot leaner in reality in top gear. It's not that common of a problem, since most people never drive that fast for that long to cause engine damage. Work around: Tune full throttle fueling in real world usage at dragstrip (to best trap speed) or in Steady State Mode on different dyno.

You can optimize tuning for a DJ dyno and make big numbers - and you can tune the engine to make the best power under load on a load bearing dyno and blow off the big DJ dyno numbers. Can a tuner cheat and make a load bearing dyno read higher? The only way that could happen is in a Sweep Test - Sweep Tests are the least reliable of all tests, period. There is NO question about that. Since the Rotating Mass is a variable in a Sweep Test (NOT a Steady State Test!), the actual inertia factor entered affects the final HP figure - Tell the software that the vehicle has a lot of rotating mass to accelerate, and the HP number increases. (torque, rpm, acceleration rate and mass are the factors) - just like DJ dyno ignoring the difference in mass of all cars - So - true HP, again - Steady State Test - No acceleration, mass makes no difference, anymore. Torque, RPM and dyne parasitics. Period. True. Can you make a Steady State Test read higher? Really hard to do - The software will NOT take data unless speed and load are completely stable - eliminating cheating. As far as atmospheric conditions making a +/- 10% difference? Unless you REALLY mess with the barometric pressure (and you can look at every atmospheric factor on the test report sheet - it's hard coded to display - and not an option), it is simply, absolutely impossible to do without obvious evidence. Are final tuning optimal dyno settings different on an Inertia dyno vs. a load bearing dyno? For many reasons, final tune settings are different - and, since most load bearing dyno's will do both , there is a choice of tests - from a DJ style Sweep Test to Steady State. Having a choice of those types of tests to do and seeing what the results on the track are, most tuners will choose the Steady State Test over a Sweep Test. Without a doubt - the Steady State test Mode is the most consistently superior method of tuning - anybody who has the capability to do it will echo that sentiment - it's only an arguable point with those who can't do it properly. One of the reasons why the load bearing dyno will provide settings that work better in the real world is that combustion chamber temperatures are more in line with the actual operating temperatures that the engine.

Does altitude make any difference at all in horsepower? The engine couldn't give 2 hoots at what altitude it is tested at - it only cares what the air pressure, temperature and humidity is. Sea level at 28.02 inches baro is exactly the same as 4000 ft at 28.02 inches, as far as the engine is concerned. When tested at 5000 ft, we get virtually exactly the same power (corrected to atmospheric conditions, of course) as we do at sea level - It's just about 24%-25% less on the track! I am confused why some dyno operators insist on putting altitude on their charts and swear that it's a factor.

Crankshaft horsepower vs. true rear wheel horsepower. That's a tough one. As each vehicle is different, the best way is to dyno the engine and then dyno the vehicle to see exactly what the loss is. The best estimate I can give you based on experience and research is take crankshaft horsepower, subtract 14.5% ( search SAE ), take that, and subtract around 10% to 15% and you'll get about true horsepower at the rear wheels. The actual formula contains a curve for power loss through gears and there's another curve for power lost in a tire. Remember, too - that unless you dyno your engine you are only likely to get a crankshaft number from the manufacturer and that's probably a "good" one that the marketing department is providing.

Hijacked to the end

[BoristheBiter]

This discussion revolves around chassis dynamometer's ..........................................."good" one that the marketing department is providing.

Hijacked to the end

fuck me some has a encyclopedia shoved up there arse.

[BoristheBiter]

no he just copied this.

http://www.enginelogics.com/dynorsults.html

[Blew]

fuck me some has a encyclopedia shoved up there arse.

No just a few facts. Easy copied and easy to read.

[onearmedbandit]

no he just copied this.

http://www.enginelogics.com/dynorsults.html

Why doesn't anyone acknowledge their sources any longer?

[imdying]

This discussion revolves around chassis dynamometer'sAhhh, it's usually considered bad form to tell the OP what their thread is about.

[Big Dave]

OK - Doesn't make any difference to my comments though.

[DEATH_INC.]

Way back then as I mentioned you are missing the fact they were open late night on Friday, at least they were in Napier where I was until the early 70's. Denill from this site ran the Honda shop then and me and my Bro's did the customary swing by his place and Jack Burns on Fridays. It resulted in a number of sales to our family at the time and that was also when we'd get our parts & accessories.

Then sure we saved the weekend for riding and I'm still happy with that.

Me, I'm not wanting 24/7, I just want some time where we can overlap. The hours mentioned in ChCh are coming close but I'm saying 7pm at least on one week night would suit me - 6pm is still a bit early.
Mmm, ok, but he stays open late friday, so the next guy does too, then your boss has you staying open too.......so where does this get us????

[Brian d marge]

I might also add that I think the traditional bike shop business model has had its day. Times have changes and the bikes are A, Commodities B, Reliable ( what are Honda's now first service at 24 000 km? My BSA Bantam was every 24 min )

I don't know what a new business model would be , but off the top of my head I would say full on service and entertainment. ( try big screen MOTOGP and refreshments , or a few beers and Ill drop off your bike in my van, Just a thought )

Also i would encourage the purchase from the Internet , Come in and ask, I have the knowledge to help you purchase the part , I can also install it for you ( swings and roundabouts here )

in other words your local friendly bike shop here for you. ( oh and one of the boys will be in Akaroa if you need us )

Honestly I dont know but if it was ( and I have been in the game long enough ) my shop thats what I would do

Stephen

ps Im over forty but sometimes forget things ,,and my hearing aid is getting repaired

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

Hmmm, seems like a good old fashioned hijacking to me (especially the weird long post /spam from the encyclopedia britannica - learn some forum ettiquete that man).

How's about I ask the mods to change the title to "Dynos - godly miracles or the devils tool?"

[Pedrostt500]

Hmmm, seems like a good old fashioned hijacking to me (especially the weird long post /spam from the encyclopeida britannica - learn some forum ettiquete that man).

How's about I ask the mods to change the title to "Dynos - godly miracles or the devils tool?"

Nah Can't be the Devils tools Cause I don't use one at work.

[DEATH_INC.]

Just another bit to add, in the car tyre industry not too long ago firestone tried a 24-7 store because they thought the same thing as you guys, but it didn't last long, strangely cost them waaaayyyyy more than they made.....

[Crasherfromwayback]

Likewise... horsepower isn't some mythical thing, it's an actual measure of work, that it would be usual for a device designed to measure it to be calibrated closely (environmental factors aside) to give accurate figures isn't really that much to ask :rolleyes:

Tell you what I do know...the very same guys that have built race bikes (more often than not the FASTEST racebikes in NZ) for riders like Bob Toomey, Robert Holden, the Hiscock Bros to name a few...run our dyno operations to this day. So if you're better than them...or have better credentials than them...I'll buy you a carton of beer of your choice. If not...I suggest you get back together with Dipshit.

[mynameis]

Tearing down is much easier than building up - what would you suggest as a comparison?

I think you are focusing too much upon scale of operation rather than the customer demographic. I would say that the demographic for electronics customers is not too far off the mark from bike shop customers (obviously not an exact match but good enough for the purpose of estimating customer preferred opening hours).




I've worked in both vehicle and electronic goods sales and agree completely. On a slow Sunday in electronics retail we would maybe make only 20-30 sales, everything from mp3 players through to large screen TV's or whiteware. On a slow Sunday in vehicle Sales (and I've worked on yards that have turnover of 120+units/mth) we might see 3 people. Have 1 test drive. And no sales.

I've worked in both, and the demographic (age, income, etc) are vastly different. Of course there is cross over, but they are wildly apart.



That's your answer there.

[Pedrostt500]

I worked for a small firm selling the odd bike and other gimmicks, we did the 7day open thing but sunday afternoon was mostly spotty kids and drop kicks with no money, it streatched my people skills to the maximum, to say the least.
When I finnished that Job I returned to Engineering, I am much happier in Engineering, When busy the hours are much longer, 7 days a week can be for weeks and months on end, but the pay cheque makes up for it, I've had to do the occasional 24 hour day, even the rear 36hour day, Yep when you have a major peice of equpiment in a million bits the customer just wants it fixed and is happy to pay you to be there untill it is regardless of what it takes, because it could be costing them $ 50,000 an hour.

[Big Dave]

Success in life has a lot to do with building and managing relationships. A good one with your Bike shop is a worthwhile thing to have - and it takes two to tango.

[Pedrostt500]

Success in life has a lot to do with building and managing relationships. A good one with your Bike shop is a worthwhile thing to have - and it takes two to tango.

And what a Strange Tango you must have with you local bike shop mannager, Dave.

[Big Dave]

Serious Lols - Just don't ask Dean to the Dance!

[Blew]

Why doesn't anyone acknowledge their sources any longer?

Because the motorcycle forum I copied this from had no source listed. Not many articles are found in 1 place on the net after the original publication.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Success in life has a lot to do with building and managing relationships. A good one with your Bike shop is a worthwhile thing to have - and it takes two to tango.

You know it too. Interesting thing...I've worked in three of Wellingtons biggest/best shops over the years...and the SAME people are a problem at all THREE shops. Funny how some people are NEVER happy no matter what you do for them.

[Big Dave]

I like Ketchup, Chilli, B-B-Q, Sweet Onion and several with Japanese Glyphs on the bottle.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Here...you'll be offered Steinlarger. After hours of course.

[Blew]

I have never worked this one out.

I did ask in a motorbike shop once and the reply was "we don't make enough money on a sunday to break even".

Surely more people are around to buy accessories and trial bikes on a sunday than on a week day?

Just never made sense, you don't see harvey norman or dick smith closing early on a sunday (just comparing some retailers).

It just seems like a really strange business model to me. At first I thought they closed to allow for shop organised rides but this doesn't seem to be the case.

7 day trading Sales in small shop.

To carry out 7 Day Trading shop owner would need to invest $2,000,000.00

In the bank at 6% he get a return $120000.00 before tax and can keep working for salary, say $70,000.00 for 5 days.

His 7 day life would need to return him $190,000.00 pre tax

Working by himself. That’s 190 sales, allowing for his rent power advertising.

190 divided by 50 weeks 3.8 sales a week.

Add in the support of parts accessories and service 7 days a week his investment and risk go up 10 fold. Wet days or days you work who turns up to buy from him.

Only problem with this is you guys.

Money in bank is better deal, but there are shop owner who like motorcycles!

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

That's your answer there.

And still no comaprable industry cited.

[merv]

Mmm, ok, but he stays open late friday, so the next guy does too, then your boss has you staying open too.......so where does this get us????

Happy customers! Now that would be novel.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Serious Lols - Just don't ask Dean to the Dance!

are you going steady?

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

7 day trading Sales in small shop.

To carry out 7 Day Trading shop owner would need to invest $2,000,000.00

In the bank at 6% he get a return $120000.00 before tax and can keep working for salary, say $70,000.00 for 5 days.

His 7 day life would need to return him $190,000.00 pre tax

Working by himself. That’s 190 sales, allowing for his rent power advertising.

190 divided by 50 weeks 3.8 sales a week.

Add in the support of parts accessories and service 7 days a week his investment and risk go up 10 fold. Wet days or days you work who turns up to buy from him.

Only problem with this is you guys.

Money in bank is better deal, but there are shop owner who like motorcycles!

Jeez, this thread is just getting wierd now. Where did all those figures appear from?

I have purposefully refrained from using any figures as there are too many assumptions around them. I mean where did you get $2,000,000 needed to set up shop for 7 day trading.
Is the loan from the bank for seed capital (for stock etc) required to set up a business and to capture an operating loss whilst gathering a customer base? See just too many assumptions - it's not worth using figures to try and prove or disproove anything.

And I even got accused of using statistics to prove stuff. Well 87.6% of surveys can tell you that that is wrong. ;-}

[Ixion]

So I'm guessing you spend a little time on the intenet, maybe 5 minutes, maybe 5 hours looking for the best deal/advice/shipping times etc. Then you plug your credit card details in, or use paypal, and get the goods delivered from overseas. What is there stopping you from ringing your local bike store or dropping them an email and doing the same? Honest question.



Cos, from experience, bike shops are shit lousy at answering emails (if they were good at that they'd probably have an online store). And whether you email them or phone them , nine times out of ten, if you ask enough questions to find out what you want to know, they lose the thread (in fairness, it's pretty hard to sell something over the phone) and simply say "Come in and see us". Back to square one.And bear in mind the internet has parts diagrams, pictures, specifications - try getting that conveyed across the phone.

Meatspace is best - you can see the goods, ask questions , compare, take time. But that's not easy, cos the shops aren't open at friendly hours. Internet is almost as good - you can compare, probably ask questions (not as easily as meatspace though), take time. Not quite as good, but you can do it anytime, anywhere. Phone, email are way way behind. Can't easily compare, questions become a drawn out process taking maybe days, and for phone, time is definately limited. Worst solution.

As to the "if it worked someone would be doing it" question - some are.

Cycletreads for instance. Though they've gone the 'longer hours' route, which I think is probably not best. They do better to open later some days, or not open at all. But they are open 7 days. And they do have an online catalog so you can pre-research. that's good business. I've bought quite a few bits from them cos of that - check first on web, determine what looks good , then a quick trip in to check that it looks the same in real life and collect. Motomail too, though for unrelated reasons I don't seem to buy much there.

[Big Dave]

are you going steady?

I don't thunk I've ever been called steady before.

How are you going?

[Ixion]

Several retailers have forwarded me offers that they will pay Ixion NOT to shop in their store.

How much ? And it's extra if I don't hang around outside the door.

[mynameis]

Ok so I take it you're some University Student who has done some Economics papers that's where all these theories are coming from as you've got a lot of explanation on what's happening in the industry with lots of conclusions which reflect what text books say. Have you heard of what a Gap Analysis is? The difference between Theory and Practice and you'll find there are lots and lots of it as you research further (if you're at uni studying).

Your explanations are purely based upon your observation and perception of the industry not any FACTS on hand direct from bike shops - primary research. That's where you're going wrong. As I replied earlier you could be assuming that customers want them open on Sat and Sun and closed two days in middle week.




In economics this situation is referred to as a monopolistically competitive industry, linky helps to explain for those interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopolistic_competition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopolistic_competition)
Here the enviroment is around non-outperformance rather than profit making. And seems to happen at a localised level with small differences (in opening hours) between regions.

This type of economic situation usually leads to a downturn in customer demand (the industry is effectively eroded over time and consumer brand loyalty has to be heavily relied upon). The bike industry has seen this themselves with prospective consumers turning to other retail alternatives in order to purchase goods (internet based mainly).



Again this is an example of your assumption. How do you come to the conclusion that there is a downturn in the bike industry? Show us some raw data and stats for us to analyse rather than reading your commentary. Say for argument sake there is how can you indefinitely link it to monopolistic practice rather than any other factors?




In fact, in my opinion, the current practice leaves the door wide open for new competitors with modern business practices. But with the global financial climate still a bit unsteady I don't think the industry needs to worry about new entrants just now.



Again an answer from the text book and Economic theory but in practice it's different. Let me give you an example of it. Red Baron is a large global corporate company with modern business practice competing with local bike shops (Kiwi Mum and Dads) however despite having quite literally 100's of shops around the world and thousands of staff not one can come up with a strategy to steer them through to financial success in NZ.

Why?

If you do a search on them you'd be able to see their books and the fact that they are making loss in the millions and should have closed in NZ by now. Reason why they are still open? Because the amount of money the rich Japanese owners have to pour in to keep the brand name ticking is bugger all for them. Loose change.





A lot of the replies have also been normal "change adverse" responses where socio-economic extremes are cited, such as: having bike shops open 24/7; the threat of losing all existing staff, if weekend staff were introduced; degradation of the family structure outside of the workplace if opening hours are altered; etc..

The main change adverse argument which has come up is the "We can't be compared to any other industry because we are unique". Hate to say it but pretty much every industry feels this way and there are very few which truly are. Even if an industry is currently unique, it will not remain that way - due to either product, communication, logistical or consumer changes.
I even put up a straw-man industry comparison (electronic retailers) - this was refuted by at least two people, but an invite for anyone to nominate another industry failed to attract any responses



The industry is unique but a fitting comparison would be to compare apples with apples not with pears. What's critical here is to analyse it within it's context i.e. The Economic Environment which in our case makes it unique as there are sweet fuck all bikers here in NZ in comparison to AUS, UK, US, Japan and the rest of the world. You cannot compare it to Electronics industry and DSE.

Let me try and simplify it for you. On a Sunday 1000 customers walk in thorough DSE out of which 300 buy something and they get X amount of sales. Now a bike shop in NZ will not have that much foot traffic nor that much sales. Reason? Simply because the goods/service/products aren't as much "consumable" as electronic goods and for the fact that say out of that 1000 customers only 50 would be bikers.

And that's the reason why you simply cannot make a comparison between the two industries.




I would honestly suggest changing, not increasing, opening hours to tailor them closer to what the customer wants. Either later opening with later closing, closed a weekday but open Saturday afternoon or a hybrid of these.



Ok you honestly don't think Bike Shop owners haven't thought of it have you? Have a think about it? If it was the solution and workable it would have been in practice by now. Also try and take a step further in your thinking/analysing/reasoning and what you'll see is one of the reasons why most Bike Shop owners open their shops during normal business hours are because of work life balance and to match their Kiwi lifestyles.

Sometimes the world doesn't revolve around you but you have to fit in with others. Most people work Mon to Fri and have time off on Sat and Sun so if Bike Shops were open on Sat and Sun and closed on Mon and Tues (say for example) then their lifestyles will be affected. BBq's, family time, riding, fishing, ect..ect..

It's not all too bad pal.

[BoristheBiter]

Cycletreads for instance. Though they've gone the 'longer hours' route, which I think is probably not best. They do better to open later some days, or not open at all. But they are open 7 days. And they do have an online catalog so you can pre-research. that's good business. I've bought quite a few bits from them cos of that - check first on web, determine what looks good , then a quick trip in to check that it looks the same in real life and collect. Motomail too, though for unrelated reasons I don't seem to buy much there.

But with cycletreads i have looked at the online catalog, went in to get/have a look at someting to be told we can order it in for you.
totaly wrong, have to buy it before you look at it. not going to happen went and got it from motormail, wolud have been holeshot but they were closed.

[onearmedbandit]

And still no comaprable industry cited.

Initially I was thinking a better comparison would be a new car dealer. Less sales but similar business style. They (for the most part) are open 7 days a week, but then the volume of car sales far outstrip motorcycle sales, and motorcycles are for a lot of people a life style, not their primary method of carting the kids around, getting the groceries, taking the rubbish to the tip. Also fewer people would be going to a new car dealer to purchase accessories/spares on the weekends (as a lot will leave their vehicles how they optrioned them and motorcyclist are more likely to carry out work themselves). So they cater to a much wider and larger demographic, so it makes sense for them to be open on Sundays, and the business can support it (number of sales staff). But it's not the perfect comparision.

Another possibility could be the boat industry. Once again, not perfect but as to most buyers of boats their choice of purchase reflects a lifestyle (sames as motorcyclists). Sales figures are no doubt lower but a lot of their customers would be buying accessories etc (similar to motorcyclists again). I had a look at some boat dealer websites (Link 1, (http://www.boatshop.co.nz/showroom.php) Link 2, (http://www.powerboatcentre.co.nz/) Link 3. (http://www.aucklandmarine.co.nz/the5thdimension/option.asp?pageid=3)) and the first 3 I found are all closed on Sundays. It appears the 2 of them have a 24hr parts ordering system, allowing them to compete with internet traders.

In my humble opinion I would suggest that the motorcycle industry is a bit of both, recreational and primary transport for individuals. An online parts ordering system, like some of the boat dealers have, would go a long way to resolving some of the issues.

[Ixion]

..
Sometimes the world doesn't revolve around you but you have to fit in with others. Most people work Mon to Fri and have time off on Sat and Sun so if Bike Shops were open on Sat and Sun and closed on Mon and Tues (say for example) then their lifestyles will be affected. BBq's, family time, riding, fishing, ect..ect..

It's not all too bad pal.

Fairly fundamental question that. Are the bike shop owners running them as a business, or as a lifestyle? Sounds like the latter. Thing is , I don't have to "fit in" with them any more. There's another option now. And more and more people are going down that route. Not necessarily willingly - I'd much rather give money to fellow Kiwis than send it out of the country. But if it comes down to the bike shop saying "fit in with my lifestyle or piss off", my answer will be "No, I'm the customer, you fit in with MY lifestyle , or I will piss off, onto the Internet".

[Big Dave]

How much ? And it's extra if I don't hang around outside the door.

I'll have their people call your people.


my answer will be "No, I'm the customer, you fit in with MY lifestyle , or I will piss off, onto the Internet".

What part of 'Good luck with that' are you missing?

[Ixion]

But with cycletreads i have looked at the online catalog, went in to get/have a look at someting to be told we can order it in for you.
totaly wrong, have to buy it before you look at it. not going to happen went and got it from motormail, wolud have been holeshot but they were closed.

I think they show you the stock on hand on the website. I remember one tyre I wanted showed out of stock , so I looked through the catalog and found a similar one that was showing as in stock. Of course, no online stock figure can ever be totally reliable, they may sell the last one while you're riding in. But it works fairly well.

Having an online catalog does go some way to addressing the problem. Not perfect but better, because it does mean that if I do have to take time off work, I know it won't be a wasted trip.

[Ixion]

..


I'll have their people call your people.

Meh, Dude, get with the times. this *is* the twenty second century. Nobody calls anyone anymore, and I don't have people. Their bot should txt my droid.

[Big Dave]

*sigh* As your agent, I'll get you up to speed eventually. If you are serious, you turn the phone off till after lunch and at least 6 beers are done. Then you negotiate. We're talking 'people' hyar.

[mynameis]

Initially I was thinking a better comparison would be a new car dealer. Less sales but similar business style. They (for the most part) are open 7 days a week, but then the volume of car sales far outstrip motorcycle sales, and motorcycles are for a lot of people a life style, not their primary method of carting the kids around, getting the groceries, taking the rubbish to the tip. Also fewer people would be going to a new car dealer to purchase accessories/spares on the weekends (as a lot will leave their vehicles how they optrioned them and motorcyclist are more likely to carry out work themselves). So they cater to a much wider and larger demographic, so it makes sense for them to be open on Sundays, and the business can support it (number of sales staff). But it's not the perfect comparision.

Another possibility could be the boat industry. Once again, not perfect but as to most buyers of boats their choice of purchase reflects a lifestyle (sames as motorcyclists). Sales figures are no doubt lower but a lot of their customers would be buying accessories etc (similar to motorcyclists again). I had a look at some boat dealer websites (Link 1, (http://www.boatshop.co.nz/showroom.php) Link 2, (http://www.powerboatcentre.co.nz/) Link 3. (http://www.aucklandmarine.co.nz/the5thdimension/option.asp?pageid=3)) and the first 3 I found are all closed on Sundays. It appears the 2 of them have a 24hr parts ordering system, allowing them to compete with internet traders.

In my humble opinion I would suggest that the motorcycle industry is a bit of both, recreational and primary transport for individuals. An online parts ordering system, like some of the boat dealers have, would go a long way to resolving some of the issues.

+1 Good example.


Fairly fundamental question that. Are the bike shop owners running them as a business, or as a lifestyle? Sounds like the latter. Thing is , I don't have to "fit in" with them any more. There's another option now. And more and more people are going down that route. Not necessarily willingly - I'd much rather give money to fellow Kiwis than send it out of the country. But if it comes down to the bike shop saying "fit in with my lifestyle or piss off", my answer will be "No, I'm the customer, you fit in with MY lifestyle , or I will piss off, onto the Internet".

Yes fairly fundamental question and fairly simple answer which any successful businessman will very quickly tell you, as quickly as a 10 year old fat kid eats his chocolate cake.

You don't enter into business with one mind set of making large amounts of profit. Businesses who operate primarily with profits in mind fail quickly and long term sustainable and successful businesses have widely been linked to other factors like having passion to service certain industries as opposed to profit margins. There are 100's of cases out there.

A lot of people enter into business not only to make profit but to suit and fit their lifestyles. Do some reading/research and you'll figure it out. And I am all for work life balance. If one "buggers off" because a Bike Shop isn't open 1 day of the week than it speaks volumes of their narrow minded approach. You'd probably be better of shopping on the net and servicing your own bike.

I on the other hand am more than happy to inconvenience myself and fit in with their opening hours if it means a hardworking honest fellow gets some time off to suit his lifestyle. (And on the other hand you also have to take a common sense practicle approach to it i.e. you wouldn't be at bike shops every single weekend shopping for parts/accessories/service.)

I've grown up in that society and want my kids to grow up in the same lifestyle/society that we are well known for. Enjoying the outdoors and having a balance as opposed to pumping 100 hours a week.

Because your $1,000,000.00 in the bank is worth nothing if you don't have the time to enjoy it.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

Initially I was thinking a better comparison would be a new car dealer. Less sales but similar business style. They (for the most part) are open 7 days a week, but then the volume of car sales far outstrip motorcycle sales, and motorcycles are for a lot of people a life style, not their primary method of carting the kids around, getting the groceries, taking the rubbish to the tip. Also fewer people would be going to a new car dealer to purchase accessories/spares on the weekends (as a lot will leave their vehicles how they optrioned them and motorcyclist are more likely to carry out work themselves). So they cater to a much wider and larger demographic, so it makes sense for them to be open on Sundays, and the business can support it (number of sales staff). But it's not the perfect comparision.

Another possibility could be the boat industry. Once again, not perfect but as to most buyers of boats their choice of purchase reflects a lifestyle (sames as motorcyclists). Sales figures are no doubt lower but a lot of their customers would be buying accessories etc (similar to motorcyclists again). I had a look at some boat dealer websites (Link 1, (http://www.boatshop.co.nz/showroom.php) Link 2, (http://www.powerboatcentre.co.nz/) Link 3. (http://www.aucklandmarine.co.nz/the5thdimension/option.asp?pageid=3)) and the first 3 I found are all closed on Sundays. It appears the 2 of them have a 24hr parts ordering system, allowing them to compete with internet traders.

In my humble opinion I would suggest that the motorcycle industry is a bit of both, recreational and primary transport for individuals. An online parts ordering system, like some of the boat dealers have, would go a long way to resolving some of the issues.

Thank you. Green bling coming your way.

So if we take a bit of car dealer and a bit of boat dealer as a comparison are they:

Open late weeknights?
Open Staurday afternoons?

I think Sunday opening is effectively a non starter.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

Ok so I take it you're some University Student .......

Nope. project management usually implementating change programmes.

Downturn conclusion is based upon bike shop closures, as posted by other members on here.

Doubt red baron keep sthe NZ operation open because it only loses the equivalent of loose change. (Didn't know they were part of a larger corp though). Most overseas branches, of multi-national corps are judged on a return on capital basis.

You really hate that Dick Smith example don't you. I'm fine with it.

I do think bike shop owners have thought about it and then think "oh bugger it no - if no-one else is doing it then I don't have to". The point of this thread was to give a consumers opinion upon this.

[Lurch]

This thread is becoming fucking hilarious. Can we get some string theory involved here also please?

Time for a random quote of the day:

"The plural of anecdote is not data"

[BoristheBiter]

I think they show you the stock on hand on the website. I remember one tyre I wanted showed out of stock , so I looked through the catalog and found a similar one that was showing as in stock. Of course, no online stock figure can ever be totally reliable, they may sell the last one while you're riding in. But it works fairly well.

Having an online catalog does go some way to addressing the problem. Not perfect but better, because it does mean that if I do have to take time off work, I know it won't be a wasted trip.

i agree but being asked to pay of it before they will even order it, not my idea of service.

[Ixion]

I guess they would say that if they didn't ask for payment in advance, the buyer would get them to order it, then go somewhere else, find it in stock there and buy it, leaving the first shop stuck with the ordered item.

I don't have a problem with paying in advance, providing they are definite they will get it .

[onearmedbandit]

So if we take a bit of car dealer and a bit of boat dealer as a comparison are they:

Open late weeknights?
Open Staurday afternoons?

I think Sunday opening is effectively a non starter.

A late Thursday or Friday night (any night for that matter) would need to extend to 9pm I believe to have any effect, only going to 7pm would be mostly pointless. A big part of your customer base probably have family commitments that can't really be excused by a wander down to the bike shop at dinner time. Late nights are also a bone of contention with most sales people, however balancing that with a starting time of say 1pm goes a long way to encouraging staff. However the gloss of late nights/late starts soon wears off.

Being open on a Saturday makes more sense, however I would extend the times out to 3pm. This would give ample oppotunity for most people to have a sleep-in, or take the kids to sports, drop the rubbish off, whatever and still get down to the shops for a look around/test ride. On top of that I'd setup an online ordering system, promote it strongly, make sure it is easy to use and reliable and employ someone whose primary duty was to ensure it ran smoothly.

It's not perfect, nothing ever is. It won't please everyone, but that isn't possible. But it would allow ample opportunity for people to get into the shop or order online, and keep staff morale higher, and keep overheads down so the owner could keep the doors open.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

It's not perfect, nothing ever is. It won't please everyone, but that isn't possible. But it would allow ample opportunity for people to get into the shop or order online, and keep staff morale higher, and keep overheads down so the owner could keep the doors open.

Quote of the thread and very - true. All the necessary points are in there.

Cheers

[BoristheBiter]

I guess they would say that if they didn't ask for payment in advance, the buyer would get them to order it, then go somewhere else, find it in stock there and buy it, leaving the first shop stuck with the ordered item.

I don't have a problem with paying in advance, providing they are definite they will get it .

I don't ether but as i didn't know what size or if it would fit well (knee brace) i'm not giving them $700 to guess then get it wrong.

[Robert Taylor]

The best thing cycletreads ever did, was open on sundays.

Im sure thats both from a business and consumer point of view too.

Go figure.

In an area with high density population and with a lot of products ( an accessory and tyre warehouse ) yes that can work but not everyone lives in Auckland or Wellington or Christchurch.

The argument for having extra staff to fill in on weekends also wears very thin with me. The trade is a lot more complex than people realise and ( frankly) you get the best service from people with long experience that know the industry inside out. Such people are VERY thin on the ground.

Id hate to see the trade move further to redshed mentality where you get ''service'' from a pimply low paid 16 year old with no product knowledge, that being almost as good as it gets.

[Robert Taylor]

I am. But, I'd rather my money stayed in NZ. For lots of reasons. So , if I could get what I need locally I would. Even if it cost a bit more. But if I have to take 2 hours off work at a cost of $100 to go and buy a $20 part, then the effective cost is too high. I can probably get it delivered to my door for $15. And no time off work.

And then what happens, when I need the $500 part, I'll go overseas again cos I've got in the habit now. Cos the local bike shops just make it too hard to deal with them.

But, all that money going overseas is money that ISN'T going into Kiwis pockets. I'd prefer it to stay here. But the attitude of the trade makes it too hard to justify.

Thats a bit of a blanket statement isnt it? Not all the trade is as you say it is.

I wonder how many people reading this thread work in industries that are taking big hits from parallell importing, thereby affecting their job security?????

[Robert Taylor]

Which is of course true, but one small point... How much confidence in your abilities do you think it instills in your customer if you produce a 150hp dyno reading for a 110hp bike? Or do you think the average customer is just going to think your a bunch of incompetent arseholes? I mean, if they can't correctly setup a dyno to produce a figure that is close to accurate, what are the chances that they'll be able to setup a bike?

Also consider manufacturers ''pamphlet horsepower''

[Robert Taylor]

I might also add that I think the traditional bike shop business model has had its day. Times have changes and the bikes are A, Commodities B, Reliable ( what are Honda's now first service at 24 000 km? My BSA Bantam was every 24 min )

I don't know what a new business model would be , but off the top of my head I would say full on service and entertainment. ( try big screen MOTOGP and refreshments , or a few beers and Ill drop off your bike in my van, Just a thought )

Also i would encourage the purchase from the Internet , Come in and ask, I have the knowledge to help you purchase the part , I can also install it for you ( swings and roundabouts here )

in other words your local friendly bike shop here for you. ( oh and one of the boys will be in Akaroa if you need us )
























Honestly I dont know but if it was ( and I have been in the game long enough ) my shop thats what I would do

Stephen

ps Im over forty but sometimes forget things ,,and my hearing aid is getting repaired

Japanese bikes are reliable ( in most cases ) Chinese bikes arent so there need to be people in bike shops tearing their hair out working on this weetbix rubbish.

[DEATH_INC.]

Happy customers! Now that would be novel.

How does it make you happy?, you're now still working while the bike shop is open!

[DEATH_INC.]

In an area with high density population and with a lot of products ( an accessory and tyre warehouse ) yes that can work but not everyone lives in Auckland or Wellington or Christchurch.
NOT true. I've worked in a mag/tyre/accessory shop and business still dies off after 12 on saturday. We gave up on late thursday nights because all it did was cost the boss dinner, and only run minimal staff after 1 (till 3 or 4 dependent on whether anyone comes in) on saturdays. This is in Manukau....

[DEATH_INC.]

i agree but being asked to pay of it before they will even order it, not my idea of service.

But you'll get shit off the net, PRE-PAID, before you see it or even know it exists?

[Kickaha]

NOT true. I've worked in a mag/tyre/accessory shop and business still dies off after 12 on saturday. We gave up on late thursday nights because all it did was cost the boss dinner, and only run minimal staff after 1 (till 3 or 4 dependent on whether anyone comes in) on saturdays. This is in Manukau....

It is no different in Christchurch in that same industry

[Number One]

I haven't read the thread..sorry can't be.

Anywho I would like to tender the notion that the only reason they have to open on Sundays for half a day is because bikers are useless pricks and can't seem to arrive at a bike shop during normal business hours.

There is a cluster of bikers who show up as the doors are shutting or are there waiting first thi ng in the morning expecting to be attended to, fawned over and generally entertained. :lol: Go for a fricken ride and book your shit in don't show up as the place closes expecting everyone to drop everything...mutha fuckers! As bad as bad scooter parking wankers!!!

:lol: ooooooo that feels better....as you were!

[merv]

How does it make you happy?, you're now still working while the bike shop is open!

Nah, us non-productive office workers don't stay late, especially on Friday's so our boss wouldn't do that to us. Most go off to drinky sessions because the bikes shops aren't open lol.

That's the rub on what we are talking about - different people doing different things need to be able to work and play at different times so each can deal with the other. If I was in the bike business and wanted to trade with another bike shop then it wouldn't matter, but we are in bikes for a hobby, the bike shop is in it for a job, so they need to catch us when we are available else they don't catch us.

[DEATH_INC.]

Nah, us non-productive office workers don't stay late, especially on Friday's so our boss wouldn't do that to us. Most go off to drinky sessions because the bikes shops aren't open lol.

And you'd give up your drinky session to go to a bikeshop????? Pass a Tui....

[merv]

And you'd give up your drinky session to go to a bikeshop????? Pass a Tui....

I don't drink much so wouldn't care and I'm not demanding Friday's again anyway, there aren't the milkbars around anymore, so how about opening until 7pm (I note someone else said that aint late enough - suits me though kids have left home) on other nights. Thursday does match late night at the malls (Queensgate in the Hutt is actually open until 9pm Thurs and Fri).

Someone also said add entertainment if they want to drag the punters in - bike shops should do whatever they can to extract the money from our accounts.

[Robert Taylor]

NOT true. I've worked in a mag/tyre/accessory shop and business still dies off after 12 on saturday. We gave up on late thursday nights because all it did was cost the boss dinner, and only run minimal staff after 1 (till 3 or 4 dependent on whether anyone comes in) on saturdays. This is in Manukau....

If that is the case then thats good, it is still then in most peoples psych that most of Saturday and Sunday are a day off. The 20th century ( and as Merv eluded ) prior to 1974 werent so bad.

[SS90]

hire weekend only staff



hire weekend only staff




hire weekend only staff



this is a vaild point, however if i cant get to the damn store, where dose that leave me? the internet. Why can't the shops figure out a way to compete with the internet (i.e., open longer hours, easy to get to, knowledgeable staff, good mechanics, good supply of accessories)





Ahem, and here we have the crux of the problem.

Much like when you go into Supercheap, and have some 18 year old student (male or female, it doesn't matter) who, since they only work weekends, have not only piss all/no experience, the simple fact that they only work 2 days a week, it will take YEARS for them to build up enough experience to be anything more than simply someone to operate the till.

Expert advise?

I'm sorry sir, you will have to come back during the week.

[george formby]

Customer service works well - provided the customer realises and is happy about the fact that he has got to pay for it. Also, in order to provide 24/7 service you either need extreme dedication to the business - i.e. the proprietor doing it himself - or you need a business big enough to support significant staff rotation - i.e. employing more people than you really need to fill out the schedule.

Many Kiwis would be too tight to be wanting to pay the premium for such extra services.

I'm open 7 days, 8am til 10pm with a wee break in the middle. It really, really sucks. My turn over cannot support more than 35 hours wage cost so it is left to me to scrimp for those few bucks. I guess bike shops are in the same boat, it's lose/lose. Might as well be riding.

[Winston001]

This thread is becoming fucking hilarious. Can we get some string theory involved here also please?

Time for a random quote of the day:
[/I]

OK. Dark Matter doesn't exist. Instead time is slowing down in the 11 dimensions causing us to see the Universe expand more rapidly than it is.



So if we take a bit of car dealer and a bit of boat dealer as a comparison are they:

Open late weeknights?
Open Staurday afternoons?

I think Sunday opening is effectively a non starter.

I give you credit WW for being polite and reasoned, not skills we expect on KB. :D

The answer to your question in a nutshell is - money. As another poster has said, if opening longer hours were profitable, bike shops would do it. So would banks, property valuers, haberdashers, accountants etc. But they don't.

Motorcycles are a small niche industry. There is no percentage in being open to serve one customer an hour. The internet has further undermined this and other types of businesses. One bike shop owner told me recently of a customer he offered to help trying on some boots. The customer declined saying "I just wanted to check these out for size when I buy them on the net".......

Personally I find shops which stay open until 6:00pm very helpful to nip in and grab something after work. But I wouldn't expect any later.




Id hate to see the trade move further to Redshed mentality where you get ''service'' from a pimply low paid 16 year old with no product knowledge, that being almost as good as it gets.

Which has happened to Mitre 10 Mega. Knowledgeable hardware shops are almost gone except for our local gem - E Hayes and Sons. Old guys, whitworth bolts, Burt Munro's Indian plus about a dozen other bikes. My favourite shop in the world. http://www.ehayes.co.nz/

[Robert Taylor]

Ahem, and here we have the crux of the problem.

Much like when you go into Supercheap, and have some 18 year old student (male or female, it doesn't matter) who, since they only work weekends, have not only piss all/no experience, the simple fact that they only work 2 days a week, it will take YEARS for them to build up enough experience to be anything more than simply someone to operate the till.

Expert advise?

I'm sorry sir, you will have to come back during the week.


Knowledgable staff, good mechanics....how do you achieve that easily? There is a severe shortage of those two factors in the motorcycle industry, FACT.

[paulmac]

Buy your bikes from tarde me, your parts from overseas and wonder why your local bike shop won't drop everything to grovel to you !! Buy your bike and gear locally and see if your service changes !!
I do 9 hours a day in a bike shop and every customer thinks I should kiss arse because of the comimssion !! Guess what ---- There is so little margin in bike sales that I don't get commission !!!! and 1 in 50 customers is actually looking to buy a bike !!
Ask motorbyklist on this site about my service !!!
You want warehouse style shopping but moan cause the ma and pa stores with the real service have shut down !!!

[george formby]

I haven't read the thread..sorry can't be.

Anywho I would like to tender the notion that the only reason they have to open on Sundays for half a day is because bikers are useless pricks and can't seem to arrive at a bike shop during normal business hours.

There is a cluster of bikers who show up as the doors are shutting or are there waiting first thi ng in the morning expecting to be attended to, fawned over and generally entertained. :lol: Go for a fricken ride and book your shit in don't show up as the place closes expecting everyone to drop everything...mutha fuckers! As bad as bad scooter parking wankers!!!

:lol: ooooooo that feels better....as you were!

Ahhhhh, the tell tale behaviour of the " slack jawed customer ". A common breed found in all areas of the retail & service jungle. Display an inability to relate the consumer premises & it's payed inhabitants to their own method of revenue accrual. Generally fail to engage on most human levels at first acquaintance.

[dipshit]

Ahem, and here we have the crux of the problem.

Much like when you go into Supercheap, and have some 18 year old student who, since they only work weekends, have not only piss all/no experience.

Doesn't matter. Working on my bike over the weekend (it is now passed 12:00 Saturday) and I need some oil or brake fluid or engine coolant or chain oil. I go to Supercheap because they carry a range of motorcycle products and are open. The motorcycle shop isn't.

People in the motorcycle industry need to get over themselves.

[dipshit]

Knowledgable staff, good mechanics....how do you achieve that easily? There is a severe shortage of those two factors in the motorcycle industry, FACT.

Many in the industry seem to think that just working in a bike shop automatically means the sun shines out of their arse.

[Morcs]

Id hate to see the trade move further to redshed mentality where you get ''service'' from a pimply low paid 16 year old with no product knowledge, that being almost as good as it gets.

whats wrong with taking on a 16 year old (or other young, unexperienced person) - TRAIN THEM. pass your knowledge on. Investing in people is one of the best things a business can do. Knowledgable people out of the box cost $$, and understandibly it may not be commercially viable to pay them for weekend work. Hiring someone cheap who can be trained (yes probably only to an extent, as they still wont have the years of experience) it can pay off as they should be able to provide a good enough level of service, at a very reasonable cost, meaning it is potentially viable to open on weekends.

Im not for or against the whole weekend thing, just pointing out the other side of the coin.

[dipshit]

I bet some guy that works in a motorcycle shop fucked your girlfriend, and was probably much better at it. You sure are one bitter tossbag.

No, it was much worse than that.

Someone in an "authorised Suzuki dealer" bike shop fucked around with my bike!

[Crasherfromwayback]

People in the motorcycle industry need to get over themselves.


Many in the industry seem to think that just working in a bike shop automatically means the sun shines out of their arse.

What's your excuse then? You're the most bitter, up yourself fuckhead I've come across on this site yet.

Are you gay?

[dipshit]

I can't belive i had to read till post 61 for somone to say this.
When i worked for a car yard we all worked the weekend (full days) and two days off in the week, also we had 1 weekend off every 4 weeks and we could swap shifts if we wanted as long as at the end of the month the hours matched.

Yes, perhaps some shop owners can't grasp that just because the shop is open x amount of time... doesn't mean all of the staff need to be there all of the time. A shop being open for business isn't the same as what hours you work.

Like in Hong Kong for example. Shops may be open from 7:00 am till 10:00 pm. Even small shops. One staff member may start at 6am and work till 2pm. A second staff member starts at 12:00 and goes through to 10pm or what have you. The two overlap between 12 and 2 pm for the busy lunchtime period. The shop is open for easy accessibility and staff members need only work typical hours in a week.

[dipshit]

What's your excuse then? You're the most bitter, up yourself fuckhead I've come across on this site yet.

Are you gay?

This must be such a blow to your ego.

[Robert Taylor]

Yes, perhaps some shop owners can't grasp that just because the shop is open x amount of time... doesn't mean all of the staff need to be there all of the time. A shop being open for business isn't the same as what hours you work.

Like in Hong Kong for example. Shops may be open from 7:00 am till 10:00 pm. Even small shops. One staff member may start at 6am and work till 2pm. A second staff member starts at 12:00 and goes through to 10pm or what have you. The two overlap between 12 and 2 pm for the busy lunchtime period. The shop is open for easy accessibility and staff members need only work typical hours in a week.

Therein still lies the problem, find competent staff and those willing to work irregular hours. Its not like pumping gas and selling lollies. Everyone that walks into a bikeshop pretty much expects every staff member to be able to answer technical questions and know all about the product etc. Have you got a light bulb for my Zundapp 50? Can you fit it? What do you mean there isnt a mechanic on duty at 9pm tonight?
We also have a small population that is often widely dispersed through small towns. The numbers just dont stack up for most small businesses.
You have on many occassions eluded to recieving poor service from a franchised dealer, due to inexperienced and incompetent staff? Unfortunately this is aproblem through this industry and also the motor industry.

[Robert Taylor]

whats wrong with taking on a 16 year old (or other young, unexperienced person) - TRAIN THEM. pass your knowledge on. Investing in people is one of the best things a business can do. Knowledgable people out of the box cost $$, and understandibly it may not be commercially viable to pay them for weekend work. Hiring someone cheap who can be trained (yes probably only to an extent, as they still wont have the years of experience) it can pay off as they should be able to provide a good enough level of service, at a very reasonable cost, meaning it is potentially viable to open on weekends.

Im not for or against the whole weekend thing, just pointing out the other side of the coin.

I have been in this industry for over 30 years and in various capacities in the retail side and the wholesale side have personally trained MANY. Also an 8 year stint as National examiner for Trade Certificate and Advanced Trade Certificate.
One of the biggest problems this industry has historically faced is very high turnover of staff and people leaving the industry. Many conspiring reasons, one of the main ones being low profit, low wages.

[Robert Taylor]

Buy your bikes from tarde me, your parts from overseas and wonder why your local bike shop won't drop everything to grovel to you !! Buy your bike and gear locally and see if your service changes !!
I do 9 hours a day in a bike shop and every customer thinks I should kiss arse because of the comimssion !! Guess what ---- There is so little margin in bike sales that I don't get commission !!!! and 1 in 50 customers is actually looking to buy a bike !!
Ask motorbyklist on this site about my service !!!
You want warehouse style shopping but moan cause the ma and pa stores with the real service have shut down !!!

100% true and if many of those grizzling did a stint in the bike industry theyd be blown away how there is so little reward for so much work.

[dipshit]

Everyone that walks into a bikeshop pretty much expects every staff member to be able to answer technical questions and know all about the product etc. Have you got a light bulb for my Zundapp 50? Can you fit it? What do you mean there isnt a mechanic on duty at 9pm tonight?.

Well if so many of the people that work in bike shops didn't love themselves so much... then they might realise that a lot of potential customers do have very good knowledge of their own bikes and just want to get parts without a whole lot of drama involved. And these are the very customers that are turning to the internet to get the parts instead.

[mynameis]

Nope. project management usually implementating change programmes.

Downturn conclusion is based upon bike shop closures, as posted by other members on here.

Doubt red baron keep sthe NZ operation open because it only loses the equivalent of loose change. (Didn't know they were part of a larger corp though). Most overseas branches, of multi-national corps are judged on a return on capital basis.

You really hate that Dick Smith example don't you. I'm fine with it.

I do think bike shop owners have thought about it and then think "oh bugger it no - if no-one else is doing it then I don't have to". The point of this thread was to give a consumers opinion upon this.

I wouldn't just guage the whole industry because a few jockeys have closed down, like any other industry people come and go it may or maynot be an indicator of how the industry is doing regardless of either that or what KBer's suggest. Just on that note there are more bikers now on the road than ever before...

ROI is all good and Red Barons books are open for you to view, you'll see they have been making loss for the past 5 years. Atleast 3 of the 5 anyway.

No I don't hate the DSE example, but for someone who is in PM and Change Management role I'd expect a little better comparison. What industry is it by the way? IT?

Maybe you're right about the last "0oh bugger it if no-one..." comment. Even if that is the case goes to show they can co-exist in harmony without getting too greedy and spoiling the industry standards/practice.

Live and let live I suppose, they all know they are in the same boat.

[merv]

Its not on the theme of hours open, but another issue I feel is essential to mention in relation to customer behaviour is brand loyalty. Pete can smile that WMCC has at least stayed loyal to Suzuki for a long time and almost as long to Harley Davidson and we did buy one Suzuki off White Trash when he was there. I myself don't drop in on the shops like I used to when I was young because some of them keep flipping changing brands. Sure it was likely a financial decision, but does that work for the shop? In the long run I doubt it.

I was a Sawyers customer for years with Hondas starting back in the Cuba Street days, bought my VFR from Adelaide Road, then they move to the Motorad premises. What happens, besides the stuff next door, they take on Yamaha, then they drop Honda. Me and Mrs buy two Yamahas off them, and I buy my next Honda from Motomart, then bugger me days Sawyers drop Yamaha and the Sawyers name. You don't build relationships continually changing who we deal with for what brand either. I hardly go to any shop now because I'm not a real customer of any of them as they've thinned my attention out. If I walk in there now who knows who I am, compared to when guys like denill ran a shop and rode with us at the club in the weekends.

Now whose fault is all this? The distibutors or who? In Welly we all know how many different places Yamaha have been including WMCC, same goes for Triumph, BMW, Ducati, KTM, Aprilia and even Honda - we remember Honda City in the Hutt losing Honda too.

Too many divorces and partnership break ups creates a dysfunctional society and staring at our computer buying stuff on the net we are still using our same loyal PC as silly as that sounds.

It does make me wonder why so many changes - has it resulted in great riches for the industry or made no difference? - I suspect the money isn't there to be stuffing around so much attracting the costs associatred with change.

I always wonder if distributors like Blue Wing Honda are the problem. We've heard about Triumph on this site too. I don't know why the Honda people from Japan just don't take more control over their product. Why not buy-out or merge Honda Cars with Motomart and voila all of a sudden 7 day service wouldn't be a problem. The last new car we bought was a Honda and we spotted the new model at the time in Masterton on a Sunday but shop not open, drive back over home way, dropped into Lower hutt, oh yeah they were open. Test drive one a rarity for us, Mrs loved it, bought one on the spot - that's how easy it was.

We (me and Mrs) are reasonably compulsive buyers and if you catch me on a good day I'll just buy it, tomorrow I won't bother. We have a number of bikes in our garage between us and the WR is the only one that I had a test ride on and then only because I couldn't belive that such a short stroke engine would have good bottom end torque. All the others I just went off spec sheets and said yes get me one of those. Funny eh, that's how I do things and those that know me know I like my bikes and I don't change them in a hurry either so very few bad choices. A lot of that is to do with the fact they will always feel weird to me on first try and you do have to settle in on a bike, hence I don't even bother with test rides usually.

So what I'm really raving on about is the shops have to be loyal to their customers and to their brands if they want to make a point of difference and have us loyal in return.

[SS90]

Knowledgable staff, good mechanics....how do you achieve that easily? There is a severe shortage of those two factors in the motorcycle industry, FACT.

This is a worldwide problem in general, as we develop our "global" economy, and the internet freely gives out "expert" titles to anyone with a keyboard and an internet connection, we have a steady supply of customers who all know better than experienced staff at a bike shop, and there is no convincing them otherwise.

The customer sees prices on the net for the same product that is, by in larger more expensive in New Zealand, and immediately jump to the conclusion that their local dealer is "stealing from them"

So, you now have a market that the customer ALWAYS know more that you, they think you are stealing from them, and you aren't open when they want you to be.

How the hell do you retain staff in this industry?

Job satisfaction? In the NZ motorcycle industry this concept is few and far between.

Kiwi's are well known penny pinchers, and so few are actually willing to spend the real costs involved in servicing their bike, and, so opt to do it themselves.

You only have to read some of the ridiculous threads on this site to see what I mean, OK perhaps, the ones that ask questions, no matter how silly, are actually doing the right thing by asking, and it is arrogant of me to make light if someone asking a question, but, man, some of the answers...... Bwahahahahah!

Threads like "so and so bike shop charged too much for my service", blah blah bike shop left a greasy finger print inside my rear mudguard" god!

It seems that the NZ motorcycling public expect a more professional service from the industry.

OK, then we must pay the workers in this industry better.

Not only to secure good new workers, but also to RETAIN the experienced ones that we have now!

So, all accesories go up 30%, labour in the workshop 40%,and bikes 20%

Happy now?

[tri boy]

Does Dipshit really dip shit, and if so, what into.
I'm picking it isn't wasabi, (he can't handle heat/pressure/kitchen).
Probably sprinkles Moron Dust over the turd before consuming them, (oh yes, he could consume quite a few I wager), plus he would have copious amounts of Moron Dust going by his attitude. MHO

[Crasherfromwayback]

This must be such a blow to your ego.

The fact that someone in the industry obviously made off with your girlfriend/boyfriend is of no concern to my ego shit dipper.

[Robert Taylor]

This is a worldwide problem in general, as we develop our "global" economy, and the internet freely gives out "expert" titles to anyone with a keyboard and an internet connection, we have a steady supply of customers who all know better than experienced staff at a bike shop, and there is no convincing them otherwise.

The customer sees prices on the net for the same product that is, by in larger more expensive in New Zealand, and immediately jump to the conclusion that their local dealer is "stealing from them"

So, you now have a market that the customer ALWAYS know more that you, they think you are stealing from them, and you aren't open when they want you to be.

How the hell do you retain staff in this industry?

Job satisfaction? In the NZ motorcycle industry this concept is few and far between.

Kiwi's are well known penny pinchers, and so few are actually willing to spend the real costs involved in servicing their bike, and, so opt to do it themselves.

You only have to read some of the ridiculous threads on this site to see what I mean, OK perhaps, the ones that ask questions, no matter how silly, are actually doing the right thing by asking, and it is arrogant of me to make light if someone asking a question, but, man, some of the answers...... Bwahahahahah!

Threads like "so and so bike shop charged too much for my service", blah blah bike shop left a greasy finger print inside my rear mudguard" god!

It seems that the NZ motorcycling public expect a more professional service from the industry.

OK, then we must pay the workers in this industry better.

Not only to secure good new workers, but also to RETAIN the experienced ones that we have now!

So, all accesories go up 30%, labour in the workshop 40%,and bikes 20%

Happy now?

That has got to be one of the most perceptive posts I have read, well done!

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

I wouldn't just guage the whole industry because a few jockeys have closed down, like any other industry people come and go it may or maynot be an indicator of how the industry is doing regardless of either that or what KBer's suggest. Just on that note there are more bikers now on the road than ever before...

ROI is all good and Red Barons books are open for you to view, you'll see they have been making loss for the past 5 years. Atleast 3 of the 5 anyway.

No I don't hate the DSE example, but for someone who is in PM and Change Management role I'd expect a little better comparison. What industry is it by the way? IT?

Maybe you're right about the last "0oh bugger it if no-one..." comment. Even if that is the case goes to show they can co-exist in harmony without getting too greedy and spoiling the industry standards/practice.

Live and let live I suppose, they all know they are in the same boat.

You are being a bit nit picky here and slightly getting off subject.

Your post contradicts itself, "I wouldn't just guage the whole industry because a few jockeys have closed down" and "you'll see they have been making loss for the past 5 years. Atleast 3 of the 5 anyway.".

If a large player in the industry has been making a loss 3 out of 5 years (only two years have been a recession so at least one year was in the boom times) then it must be the best indicator that all is not good in the industry.

This assumption I apply to the whole industry is based upon all bike shops applying roughly the same operating model, main differentiators between shops would probably be location, brand loyalty and reputation. The original question of this thread is around why are antiquated opening hours used in modern times. I still think the question is relevant and is based upon the view of the consumer not the supplier.

So you didn't like the Dick Smith example. It is called a straw man which is put up to get others thinking. You seemed to have become fixated upon the straw man solution instead of constructively using the straw man as a starting point - which is what it is intended for.

I think I've annoyed you somehow but stop being "a critic without a better plan" - not constructive.

Cheerio!

[hmmmnz]

well, ill spout up, ive tired most bike shops in wellington to get gear in for me,
i don't have new bikes or even bikes that were considered popular at any stage,
but when a bike shop can't get the right brake pads, fork seals, exhaust gaskets, oil filters the first time, then im not going back,
i was willing to pay over double the price for brake pads, i even gave them the part numbers, and they proceded to have me wait over a week and got the wrong ones in, i ordered out of oz, and they were at my door in 3 days
its far easier for me to do the research myself and order it from overseas, atleast i know im going to get what i pay for, and i get better service from a computer.
fuck the spare parts industry, as far as im concerned, useless bunch of tits

[Ixion]

This is a worldwide problem in general, as we develop our "global" economy, and the internet freely gives out "expert" titles to anyone with a keyboard and an internet connection, we have a steady supply of customers who all know better than experienced staff at a bike shop, and there is no convincing them otherwise.


I can only speak on my own experience, but often the experience and knowledge of shop staff is not impressive. I call it the ZXR250 phenomonen - the lad in the shop owns a ZXR250, and firmly believes that is the only way that a motorcycle can be designed. That said, if one can get hold of an older assistant, they can be very knowledgable. It varies, widely. I would certainly expect that in some cases at least , the customer , who after all only needs to be well informed about his own model of machine, will know more about that machine than the assistant, whose knowledge must encompass the entirety of the motorcycle world.

But the comment perhaps gives an interesting insight into the underlying attitudes of motorcycle traders towards their customers.



The customer sees prices on the net for the same product that is, by in larger more expensive in New Zealand, and immediately jump to the conclusion that their local dealer is "stealing from them"


Again, based on my experience, this is not so for japanese OEM parts. In general, once freight and exchange rate/ credit card commission (often overlooked, that last one) are taken into account, the difference between importing from the States or UK, and buying locally, is small. Sometimes the NZ price is cheaper. What DOES differ is the time and convenience. In some cases, several weeks or more from the local agent versus a few days direct import. And convenience.

BMW are a bit different, there is usually about a 20 - 30% saving buying from the UK. Though since the NZ BMW agents keep good stock, the convenience factor goes the other way. So unless the item is a very expensive one, the saving is probably not worth the trouble.

[mynameis]

You are being a bit nit picky here and slightly getting off subject.

Your post contradicts itself, "I wouldn't just guage the whole industry because a few jockeys have closed down" and "you'll see they have been making loss for the past 5 years. Atleast 3 of the 5 anyway.".

If a large player in the industry has been making a loss 3 out of 5 years (only two years have been a recession so at least one year was in the boom times) then it must be the best indicator that all is not good in the industry.

This assumption I apply to the whole industry is based upon all bike shops applying roughly the same operating model, main differentiators between shops would probably be location, brand loyalty and reputation. The original question of this thread is around why are antiquated opening hours used in modern times. I still think the question is relevant and is based upon the view of the consumer not the supplier.

So you didn't like the Dick Smith example. It is called a straw man which is put up to get others thinking. You seemed to have become fixated upon the straw man solution instead of constructively using the straw man as a starting point - which is what it is intended for.

I think I've annoyed you somehow but stop being "a critic without a better plan" - not constructive.

Cheerio!

All hail selective reading :not: picking just parts of a post and than saying its contradicting just makes your posts/points weaker.

A large player in the industry? Where did you get that from? Big brand name, large show room, lots of lazy staff? Or do you have any figures on hand? What about all the other dealers around the country who make up part of the industry and their performance?

Fact is if read over your posts, you've predetermined all your conclusions and use meaningless examples and explanation to back your claims. It's you who has been fixated on your answers and I've tried to get you to think outside the box without any results. You are trying to come up with a "better plan" - supposedly.

I on the other hand think the opening hours are just perfect so to get you thinking outside the box I break down your explanations (which have a lot of flaws) which you claim to be "not constructive". Come on for someone in PM space you could surely do better. Especially Change Management - where you definitely need to think outside the square.

Seriously nice try though :D

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

All hail selective reading :not: picking just parts of a post and than saying its contradicting just makes your posts/points weaker.

A large player in the industry? Where did you get that from? Big brand name, large show room, lots of lazy staff? Or do you have any figures on hand? What about all the other dealers around the country who make up part of the industry and their performance?

Fact is if read over your posts, you've predetermined all your conclusions and use meaningless examples and explanation to back your claims. It's you who has been fixated on your answers and I've tried to get you to think outside the box without any results. You are trying to come up with a "better plan" - supposedly.

I on the other hand think the opening hours are just perfect so to get you thinking outside the box I break down your explanations (which have a lot of flaws) which you claim to be "not constructive". Come on for someone in PM space you could surely do better. Especially Change Management - where you definitely need to think outside the square.

Seriously nice try though :D

Yup, no point in going round in circles any more - I make statement - you challenge - I outline assumptions as requested - you challenge - I point out contradiction in challenge - you challenge - I can't be arsed to reply to your challenges any further because I'm just guessing you'll challenge them again.

[Brian d marge]

Blasted battery went flat on laptop!
So tapping this out on iPhone
Well I ran this thread past a few friends and they wet themselves laughing

They were astounded that a service industry closed period ! ( ok we have the numbers over here but...)
But after reading through the thread some good points came through

Though I still say go out and get the customers
Shops don't have to be open fully it can be a scaled back service

What is wrong with hiring a retired person ? The limited experience I had in NZ, it did seem to be an us and them sort of deal.... bugger working hard cos the boss is a #%^^**^%and the money is. Crap
Well there's more to a relationship than money , respect , food. Or just simple acknowledgement
I'd bust a gut for someone I respected and treated me right

So on my travels in NZ
One bike shop I went into had a young lad with his feet up on the counter doing jack

How about cleaning the outside if the shop ( I do it every day and it's unpaid Just one of those things you do
Turn up 20 before you start , clean the place get it ready for opening and go etc )

Dpst may be right most of the bigger places I went to were truly horrible, a holier than thou attitude and not one had an interest in selling or giving the time of day
We need spotty nosed kids to buy the a100 out the back they are the future of the industry ( after a good kick up the arse)

Though on saying that some of the smaller one were great , A Suzuki shop in Napier for on and One who advertises on KB

Well it's been a few years now but I was offered the job as manager at red baron head office but was eventually turned don due to my poor Japanese ( the interviewer tried really hard to sway his boss but big boss decision was final )
Don't know about he NZ tie-up but I thought all red barons were franchised ( I can ask me mate he would know )

Finally would I be right in guessing there are two types of market in NZ
The entry ( low priced ) and the Luxury ( over 40 kids gone and a good job , bike as a leisure item

I dont know but i am supporting that wee shop in Napier!

Stephen

[sefer]

Ive been in working in the bike trade in Britain and in Japan and always have opened on Saturdays and Sundays


Most bike shops in Japan are closed on other day a week though. Wednesday in my area of Tokyo.... Of course those same shops are also usually open till 8 or so every night (usually run by one person at all times)

[Big Dave]

>>Well I ran this thread past a few friends and they wet themselves laughing<<

Man, the Japs must have some good drugs now.

[Robert Taylor]

well, ill spout up, ive tired most bike shops in wellington to get gear in for me,
i don't have new bikes or even bikes that were considered popular at any stage,
but when a bike shop can't get the right brake pads, fork seals, exhaust gaskets, oil filters the first time, then im not going back,
i was willing to pay over double the price for brake pads, i even gave them the part numbers, and they proceded to have me wait over a week and got the wrong ones in, i ordered out of oz, and they were at my door in 3 days
its far easier for me to do the research myself and order it from overseas, atleast i know im going to get what i pay for, and i get better service from a computer.
fuck the spare parts industry, as far as im concerned, useless bunch of tits

You are tarring everyone with the same brush, which is manifestly unfair. What in heavens name possessed you to own an XZ400??!!!!

[Squiggles]

Ask motorbyklist on this site about my service !!!

Its fooken awesome.

[mynameis]

Yup, no point in going round in circles any more - I make statement - you challenge - I outline assumptions as requested - you challenge - I point out contradiction in challenge - you challenge - I can't be arsed to reply to your challenges any further because I'm just guessing you'll challenge them again.

Yeap, Welcome to Kiwibiker, I forgot to bling you :D next time mate.

[mynameis]

BD what's with >><< that shit :lol:

That's like a n0o0b who doesn't know how to use KB :laugh:

[Big Dave]

>>BD what's with >><< that shit :lol:<<

Commensurate effort. :-)

Or effort commensurate with the value of the post.

I've just about finished editing a heap of video - (not biking unfortunately) which is handy because the threads I've been in while it's been crunching have started going around in circles.

[NordieBoy]

Ahhh, it's usually considered bad form to tell the OP what their thread is about.

OP - Old Person?

[Big Dave]

'Not Reno Dummy, Rio. Rio Degenaro.'

Organ Player.

[Brian d marge]

Wednesday is Auction Day at BDS

I had Tuesdays Wed off but was at the Auctions

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Single malt Speyside , 20 dollar a bottle

hell yes

if fact heres one I had started earlier Said "Valerie "

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

What in heavens name possessed you to own an XZ400

Im asking the Same Question ......

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

just as an example of going out and getting customers

Snip


Greene said he has spent 42 years in the motorcycle industry, with Kawasaki, Triumph, Harley-Davidson and Piaggio.

He ran the Aprilia Adventure Ride while at Piaggio. Instead of a short demo ride at a motorcycle show, participants paid for an experience that was an hour and a half long, included lunch, and they left with t-shirts, hats and decals to remember it by.

Stephen

[scracha]

Seriously, I think the original thread poster has a point. Motorcycling these days is largely a leisure past-time. Leisure time on motorcycle (whether riding one or working on one) is largely over the weekend and evenings so I honestly can't understand why bike shops can't open at these times.

Properly advertised and staffed, bike shops in the UK (and no, they're not all big cities or densely populated areas) do very well when they open on a Saturday and possibly a late thursday night or Sunday morning. My regular* bike shop out in the sticks was ran by one guy plus apprentice mechanic. He compensated losing his Saturday by taking all of Tuesday off and also Wednesday morning. Didn't even bother "rotating" shifts with his apprentice to stay open Tuesday/Wednesday as he lost so little money from closing and gained so much work that they were both working flat out every Saturday**. This was 15 years ago.

Kiwi bike shops seem to be stuck in the 80's. Burying their head in the sand and moaning about Internet purchases just doesn't wash. Other industries have adapted. Anyone working in the modern motorcycle industry expecting normal working hours is seriuosly deluded.

I don't see the local tennis coach moaning because most of his work is early evening and weekends. Could you imagine if Robert Taylor had a Monday - Friday 9 till 5 mentality?

*I didn't say LOCAL bike shop as my LOCAL bike shop couldn't be bothered opening on Saturday even though it was in a large town of about 150,000 people. Most of this guy's customers were like myself and preferred to ride a few hours for proper service.

**incidentally, he had a large viewing area separating his COMFORTABLE and ENTERTAINING (nothing crazy expensive:- TV, magazines, posters, vending machine with cheap coffee) little shop from the workshop and was more than happy to invite you to watch him working on your bike and ask any questions. Hell, he'd even estime the time of day he'd get to work on your bike. Even demonstrated and encouraged customers to do the simple jobs themselves. Now that's called building a trusting and long term customer relationship. The guy did very well for himself.......funny that?

[marty]

I work in a 24/7 service industry. The same staff that are working on Sunday are not the same staff working Wed and Thurs - not everyone wants the weekends off. In fact, riding/flying/snow skiing/whatever, watching MILFs on the waterfront, is often best done on your days off when those days off are midweek! I did 10 days snow skiing last season - NEVER queued for ANY lift, always got a carpark right at the top. Water skiing - fantastic when you're the only boat on the lake.

[dipshit]

and the internet freely gives out "expert" titles to anyone with a keyboard and an internet connection, we have a steady supply of customers who all know better than experienced staff at a bike shop, and there is no convincing them otherwise.


But the comment perhaps gives an interesting insight into the underlying attitudes of motorcycle traders towards their customers.


Just wait till you have someone that works in a bike shop tell you how the cams in your SV1000 are driven.... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/114976-Ouch.-An-expensive-noise?p=1129576998#post1129576998 :blink:

[jonbuoy]

To be fair you can't expect mechanics or parts people to know everything about every model of bike made over the last 30 years or so Suzuki dealer or not. I was a bit surprised so many bike shops closed over the weekend - don't really want to take time off work to go bike hunting or get a set of tyres fitted. I work weekends on rotation but get the days off in the week -I love my weekday days off.

[dipshit]

To be fair you can't expect mechanics or parts people to know everything about every model of bike made over the last 30 years or so Suzuki dealer or not.


The trouble is that they think they do, be it right or wrong.

[SS90]

Just wait till you have someone that works in a bike shop tell you how the cams in your SV1000 are driven.... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/114976-Ouch.-An-expensive-noise?p=1129576998#post1129576998 :blink:

(SIGH), and here is a perfect case in point.

One chap makes a simple mistake (by generalising), and, through the miracle of the internet, we now have a link that we can forever see this mistake.

I really wish there was a plumbing website, where we could get some free advise from an experienced plumber, then, after consulting Wikipedia we could all show him how wrong he is.

[Crasherfromwayback]

(SIGH), and here is a perfect case in point.

One chap makes a simple mistake (by generalising), and, through the miracle of the internet, we now have a link that we can forever see this mistake.

I really wish there was a plumbing website, where we could get some free advise from an experienced plumber, then, after consulting Wikipedia we could all show him how wrong he is.

Funny that eh! Old Shit Dipper is hanging onto that post for all it's worth! Still...I guess after 23 years in the industry...doing Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, Triumph, Moto Guzzi, Ducati, BMW HD, Buell and Kawasaki...it's a national disgrace to get it mixed up over one model and drop the ball!

[Crasherfromwayback]

The trouble is that they think they do, be it right or wrong.

Jeez Shit Dipper...must be great to have never made a mistake eh? You really are a bitter little faggot aren't ya.

[dipshit]

(SIGH) One chap makes a simple mistake (by generalising).


By generalising... or not knowing what he is talking about even though he thinks he does...???

[dipshit]

Jeez Shit Dipper...must be great to have never made a mistake eh? You really are a bitter little faggot aren't ya.

Gee... maybe you guys that work in bike shops aren't so shit hot and marvellous like you think you are..??? :oi-grr:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Gee... maybe you guys that work in bike shops aren't so shit hot and marvellous like you think you are..??? :oi-grr:

You've tried to get a job in the industry and been knocked back haven't you? What is it you do for a living now?

[dipshit]

What is it you do for a living now?

I work in the mining industry. Making the most money I ever have in my life! Have plenty to spend on my toys. Local bike shops in my area given me no reason whatsoever to support them. As you know the services my new bikes have had from them have been appalling.

So don't think potential customers will go out of their road just so they can be privileged to have the "expertise" of their local bike shop. Most people will find an alternative in an heartbeat and will not think twice about abandoning their local shop.

Get over yourselves.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I work in the mining industry. Making the most money I ever have in my life! Have plenty to spend on my toys. Local bike shops in my area given me no reason whatsoever to support them. As you know the services my new bikes have had from them have been appalling.

So don't think potential customers will go out of their road just so they can be privileged to have the "expertise" of their local bike shop. Most people will find an alternative in an heartbeat and will not think twice about abandoning their local shop.

Get over yourselves.

Well I'm stoked you're earning so much. You're wrong though...I know nothing of the service you've had over the years.

I have nothing to get over. You on the other hand...

[dipshit]

Well I'm stoked you're earning so much. You're wrong though...I know nothing of the service you've had over the years.

I had detailed examples recently for you. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/114976-Ouch.-An-expensive-noise?p=1129587902#post1129587902 (click on the linked text for specific details)

This is what it comes down to.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

Just a note to say I was very impressed with, while attending a bike training session in Martinborough, the bike shop that had taken the trouble to drive a van out with a new bike (for sale) on the back and another bike on a trailer, he also had a selection of jackets hung up on the side of the bike.

Most impressive thing of all though - THIS WAS ON A SUNDAY MORNING!

Well done that man - you are a bike shop owner who has put a bit of thought into his customers and wants to go out and get their custom.
Only thing I would suggest was positioning, wasn't sure that it was a display at first - as it was slightly away from the desk where you had to sign up for the course - which is where everyone hung around. I only noticed it as I walked past to go to use the loo. Great idea though.

As it was ridiculously hot - a "free water" sign would have bought the bikers around your van in droves (could have just filled up plastic cups from the tap water in the loos - lol).

[maloney]

Stop your bitching - there are no motorcycle shops open on a Sunday in Christchurch and they all close by 1.00pm on a Saturday.

Same over here, it's a joke. You can't get to 'em during the week cause you're workin', then if you dare have an appointment or somethin' Saturday mornin' you're shagged. And as for Sunday, well, you can forget about Sundays.
Surely it wouldn't hurt to stay open till 4 on a Saturday like most other stores, it's only 3 hours but it makes a big difference.

[nerve2]

It's Sunday today. If there were a bike shop opened with a decent selection there's a good chance I'd be buying a bike today.

I did my best to read the whole thread so hopefully I didn't miss it, but- I hope everyone appreciates the irony of all this. Bike Shop owners actually have the customers telling them what they want, and (so far) they all seem basically unwilling to give it to them. You know how much companies usually have to PAY to find out what their customers want???

I hope some shop owner somewhere decides to take a chance and try a late night or a late(r) Saturday or a Sunday and see what happens. Let us all know when / where and how it goes. Business is about evolving, especially these days.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I hope some shop owner somewhere decides to take a chance and try a late night or a late(r) Saturday or a Sunday and see what happens. Let us all know when / where and how it goes. Business is about evolving, especially these days.

Well we're open until 3.00PM on Saturdays!

[DMNTD]

Well we're open until 3.00PM on Saturdays!

4pm for us...makes for a long week eh?!
We used to be open on Sundays too but it simply wasn't financially viable.

Well, the sun's out so it looks like I too will get a chance for a ride!

[nodrog]

4pm for us...makes for a long week eh?!
We used to be open on Sundays too but it simply wasn't financially viable.

Well, the sun's out so it looks like I too will get a chance for a ride!

see you at oko?

[Crasherfromwayback]

4pm for us...makes for a long week eh?!
We used to be open on Sundays too but it simply wasn't financially viable.

Well, the sun's out so it looks like I too will get a chance for a ride!

Mate...I've been working six days a week for the last 23 years! Lucky I love what I do.

[Big Dave]

>>so I honestly can't understand why bike shops can't open at these times.<<

Here I'll type it slowly :-P

On Sundays - No c*** wants to, they do other shit - and when they have tried it's not been worth it.

[Big Dave]

Mate...I've been working six days a week for the last 23 years! Lucky I love what I do.

Work in a bike shop. Good one.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Work in a bike shop. Good one.

Yeah...five different ones in that time. The one thing they all have in common? They're owned by motorcycles nuts who live breath and RIDE bikes. But only on one day a week!

[Big Dave]

No no - I mean 'work' - in a bike shop?!??!?!? Good one.

[dipshit]

here i'll type it slowly :-p

on sundays - no c*** wants to, they do other shit - and when they have tried it's not been worth it.



r...


O...


S...


T...


E...


R...

[Brian d marge]

Well its 8.30 on a sunday morning and Im off to work

I have to say "thank you " I have had so much milage out of this thread , Its been a running joke at work , can u help me , nah im on NZ time , closed mate!

oh well off to "service" a few customers

Stephen

[Big Dave]

Well its 8.30 on a sunday morning and Im off to work


Sucks to be you.

[Crasherfromwayback]

oh well off to "service" a few customers

Stephen

Most of your customers are gay? Or female...

[BikerDazz]

I can appreciate both sides of this argument.

However, we as customers have gotten used to having shops open in the weekends, over recent years (or is it decades now...time slips away).

Personally, I'd bloody hate to have to work in the weekend but for me own selfish reasons would love to browse in bikes shops whenever I felt like it, in the weekend. Just like you can do at caryards etc etc.

Oh, and it would be nice to receive friendly customer service - customer service around this town is generally piss poor. I can't believe employers allow it.

Anyway, I had a very enjoyable ride this morning blatting around the back roads and hope that the bike shop folk have done so too.

[dipshit]

Most of your customers are gay? Or female...

I think he used " " because it would appear from reading this thread that that word is a foreign concept to NZ bike shops.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Personally, I'd bloody hate to have to work in the weekend but for me own selfish reasons would love to browse in bikes shops whenever I felt like it, in the weekend. Just like you can do at caryards etc etc.


You can browse most motorcycle shops in NZ on Sundays. Via the internet.

[Brian d marge]

Most of your customers are gay? Or female...

or both

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

snip ,,,,,,Sucks to be you.


Depends what the work was ,,,,

Stephen