$400 for a ignition timing pickup? You must be fucking kidding!

[Conquiztador]

A mate has a 400cc Duke. I borrowed it once last year and went to Tauranga (from Napier) and it was a plesant thing to ride.

3 months ago it started farting and missing. He took it in to a local shop and they diagnosed a problem with timing sensor. They ordered it and told him $400.

He has now used the bike for 10+ weeks on one cylinder as it is his only transport. I had a chat with him last week and as you do talked re bikes. He told me the story. I could NOT believe it. On two counts:
- 10 weeks for a shitty little bit!
- $400 for the shitty little bit!

So I asked him to come around this long w/e and we have a look...

We put the bike on to its r/h side and opened the cover. She has 2 black ignition timing pickups that sense when the flywheel timing bit come past. I measured them and found that one worked. The other not. (She is a 2 cylinder girl).

So I took the faulty one out, rummaged round in my "good to have" bits and found one that was similar. Well, almost. Holes were in different places for mounting, and it was a little bigger. Also had one wire out and not two. But a few minutes of tinkering and all this was sorted.

I fitted the sensor, reassembled all the parts. He pushed the starter button and she settled in to a nice idle (something she had not done for 3 months...). He took her for a test run and came back all smiles.

I will catch up with him tomorrow and hear how she goes. Apart from perhaps the timing a fraction out on that cylinder (not that we did notice anything) all else should be fine.

Reason for this thread is not to tell you guys how brilliant I am (even if I have no problem you telling me so... ;) ), but to wonder about two things:

1. The customer service of todays bike shops. This was not rocket sience. (Yes, I know re the Consumer Guarantee etc. and the issues if not doing a top job straight away etc.). The bike was running on one cylinder. And they tell him to ride away and they will get the bit. 10 weeks later NOTHING!

2. They wanted $400 for the bit!!! Holy shit!!! The bit I fitted was most probably from some old 2 stroke banger (or even a 50cc scooter) and is just what the doctor ordered. Worth a beer...

What is happening with the industry? Has customer service become something that nobody gives a shit bout? Is selling $15K new bikes all that matters?

Oh, and they wanted payment up front for the bit too... Lets hope he gets his money back!

And I know the ones who will now post here telling me that it is all about bla bla and I don't understand re the bla bla. But for fucks sake! He is a bike rider, he deserves to be treated well by the ones who are supposed to care: The bike shops!

No wonder I fix all my own stuff. All those ripoff bike shops can get fucked far as I am concerned!

[R6_kid]

Cost $117 to replace a plastic L-bend fuel line fitting on a Ducati I was looking after. I'm sure it cost about $4 to make, and it took two weeks to arrive ex-Italy.

[Corsa.co]

Ha Ha Ha ... Fuel line bend instock new $50,,. Pickup coil , there are two types, can only get the 460 ohm type. New $120 usually in stock.

[98tls]

Not to mention they would probably have wanted another $400 to fit it,thens theres a 50% chance they would fuck it up charging you another $200 to rectify there fuckup.Ebay rocks,pure and simple.Good on ya for getting your hands dirty.

[Leseid]

I have a French car so I have felt this pain also before. You pay a shit load of money up front and wait a very long time to receive some plastic part you could have substitute from an engineering supplier. But you don't what to take it back as it is a genuine part after all and you don't want to stick mongrel parts on your pure beast of pleasure.

But French cars turn out to be some of the most mongrel cars on the market, and they're the ones laughing all the way to the bank with people ordering genuine mongrel parts.

This the reason I chose a pure bread Japanese bike.

[JMemonic]

I wonder about the price of some of the parts, I had to replace a front indicator bulb, now the base is standard, its not made by some uber secret manufacturer as I can read osram on the bulb but do you think its available as a standard? No that type of base in the orange colour is normally the larger head as used on stop/tail etc but these have a small head and the large one wont fit so what should be a $2 bulb costs $10+.

I would suspect the genuine part you refer to in this case is the same, they make a batch for the bike manufacturer with the fitting they require which internally is no different to their normal production run, but as its now a special part the manufacture charges gets to charge a premium on.

As to what is going on in the industry, on could say folks just don't know, they only know the data on the sheet in front of them, and it would seem motorcycles have gone from being a form of transport to considered as a luxury item in the eyes of the government, insurance, and even some sectors of the industry including the manufacturers. Cars are simply to cheap and bikes to expensive.

[CookMySock]

I can get bike parts from the other side of the planet in three days, and thats over the weekend too. They should sort their shit out, not that they have to.

Sure it's easy to jury-rig something into place, and sometimes it works perfectly, but the problem is it's very easy to provoke a problem from the "whoever thought of that" category, and quite often it fries something really expensive in the process. No one wants this on their resume, or rather - bike shops can't make money out of it because of the high rate of returns and the negative fallout about it posted on forums such as this.


Steve

[Conquiztador]

Sure it's easy to jury-rig something into place, and sometimes it works perfectly, but the problem is it's very easy to provoke a problem from the "whoever thought of that" category, and quite often it fries something really expensive in the process. No one wants this on their resume, or rather - bike shops can't make money out of it because of the high rate of returns and the negative fallout about it posted on forums such as this.

Steve

Yep, I get that. But we are not talking about rocking horse shit here. Most bikes today have these. So to fit one from another bike is surely not that hard? Instead of nothing happening in 10 weeks. He has already told me that he will never go back to the same shop. And as he is looking at upgrade to a 1000cc bike shortly they will not even be in the running.

[R6_kid]

Ha Ha Ha ... Fuel line bend instock new $50.

Really? The one that plugs into the tank?

[Motu]

(Yes, I know re the Consumer Guarantee etc. and the issues if not doing a top job

Yes,this is unfortunatly behind it all.It really hurts for me to know I can fix something quickly and cheaply,but don't dare do it because of repercussions.When I had my own business I had to stop my guys from fixing things....they'd get pissed off at me.

What we need is for customers to stop complaining about things that are nothing to do with the repairer - but to say,''Shit man,do it! If it fucks up I don't care,at least we tried.''

[PirateJafa]

Yep, I get that. But we are not talking about rocking horse shit here. Most bikes today have these. So to fit one from another bike is surely not that hard?

Don't want to have to deal with any potential liability issues?

Or listen to the customer bitching and moaning for the next eleven years that s/he can "feel through the seat of their pants that X/Y/Z is now wrong with it because they maori'd the wrong part onto his bike and now they've broken it and boohoohoo"?

If you want to do a "close enough" fix on your bike, then you might as well do it in your "close enough" to a workshop shed with your "close enough" abilities and "close enough" tools and attitude.

If you want it done professionally, take it to the professionals.

Disclaimer: By professionals, I sure don't mean bike shops in general. But I know of a couple of places out there that I am willing to trust my bikes to.

[Conquiztador]

Ha Ha Ha ... Fuel line bend instock new $50. Pickup coil , there are two types, can only get the lower ohm type. New $120 can`t remember , but usually in stock.
So why would he then be charged $400 for a bit (that has not even turned up in 10 weeks???) $120 is still a ripoff. But deserves nothing more than a whinge over a beer. $400 on the otherhand...


Not to mention they would probably have wanted another $400 to fit it,thens theres a 50% chance they would fuck it up charging you another $200 to rectify there fuckup.Ebay rocks,pure and simple.Good on ya for getting your hands dirty.
Sadly you are probably right. The chap is not a mechanic, and I recon this is the problem: Old cunts like me have always fixed our own shit, so we have some knowledge re how things work. Today all is specialised, so ppl just don't open things up anymore. Take it to the "specialist" and actually expect to be charged a fortune!



As to what is going on in the industry, on could say folks just don't know, they only know the data on the sheet in front of them, and it would seem motorcycles have gone from being a form of transport to considered as a luxury item in the eyes of the government, insurance, and even some sectors of the industry including the manufacturers. Cars are simply to cheap and bikes to expensive.
I personally think it is a lack of interest in the job (I'ts just a fucking job, who cares?) and a lack of care for the customer (If he is stuped enough to pay then lets just rip him off, and if he does not want to pay fuck him. There are other suckers out there!)


I can get bike parts from the other side of the planet in three days, and thats over the weekend too. They should sort their shit out, not that they have to.
Steve
This is something that I have seen mentioned on here heaps of times resently. And the ones in the trade trying to defend their $400 charge for a bit we can get over the net for $100 by telling us that it ha all to do with the cost of knowledge, serviced and bullshit. 10 weeks, $400 up front and nothing, reeks of incompetence, lack of any service and care. And ppl wonder why they go out of business???


Yes,this is unfortunatly behind it all.It really hurts for me to know I can fix something quickly and cheaply,but don't dare do it because of repercussions.When I had my own business I had to stop my guys from fixing things....they'd get pissed off at me.

What we need is for customers to stop complaining about things that are nothing to do with the repairer - but to say,''Shit man,do it! If it fucks up I don't care,at least we tried.''
I hear you and I understand the issue. But what I do wonder is that if there was a shop that did treat their customers like in the past and actually took care and treated them well, would they not be doing brilliantly? To spend a few minutes talking to the customer and say: "Here is your options: $400 + labour for the right bit, $50 and labour for one that will do the job, but no guarantee (sign here)". Instead of not caring?


Don't want to have to deal with any potential liability issues?

Or listen to the customer bitching and moaning for the next eleven years that s/he can "feel through the seat of their pants that X/Y/Z is now wrong with it because they maori'd the wrong part onto his bike and now they've broken it and boohoohoo"?

If you want to do a "close enough" fix on your bike, then you might as well do it in your "close enough" to a workshop shed with your "close enough" abilities and "close enough" tools and attitude.

If you want it done professionally, take it to the professionals.

Disclaimer: By professionals, I sure don't mean bike shops in general. But I know of a couple of places out there that I am willing to trust my bikes to.

I understand all that. I am happy to do my own "near enough" stuff. A few months ago my K100's starter stopped working. I diagnosed worn brushes. I went to the local Auto Elecrician and bought a set that was "near enough" for $35. Took them home, did some filing. Fitted and Bobs my uncle. Never even asked what original ones would cost. Can only guess. (Or most probably they only come in a new starter motor...)

I recon the problem is that ppl are earning too much money these days, and they spend it on their toys. Then when the toy breaks they just get a new one. Just look at all the plastic whizz bang bikes on the roads. And when you start to talk to the owners they know all the latest models and what colour wheel this years model will have. But they have no idea how to change a fuel filter.

[jonbuoy]

They did diagnose the fault correctly though, I guess they could have spent half the morning scratching around in a miscellaneous parts box to see if they had something that might do the job, fitting it only to find that as a second hand bit it had an intermittent fault on it as well that didn't show up for another couple of months - causing the owner to bring the bike back in and ask for the right part to be fitted instead. But you would all be happy to pay for that extra labor and inconvenience right??

[doc]

I think part of the problem is the apprenticeship system. We now have technicians. Also you have an Italian thing. My recent experience with Italian electrics, bike died with a fuel pump problem, technician said it needed a new $1550 fuel pump. Apprenticeship trained electrician said that the contacts were dirty,and put it back in. Hasn't missed a beat since. :shifty:

[Conquiztador]

They did diagnose the fault correctly though, I guess they could have spent half the morning scratching around in a miscellaneous parts box to see if they had something that might do the job, fitting it only to find that as a second hand bit it had an intermittent fault on it as well that didn't show up for another couple of months - causing the owner to bring the bike back in and ask for the right part to be fitted instead. But you would all be happy to pay for that extra labor and inconvenience right??
Close. They could have told him they can get it working, but no guarantee as the bit is not new. He then could have decided. As I mentioned: It is his only transport. Or, god forbid, they could have done some research and got him a bit from someone who had it in stock. Paid trade price and still charged him $200 (making a clean $100 of the bit) and had him on the road inside a week...

And re the diagnosing: How tricky is it when one cylinder is firing and not the other?
1. Spark plugs out = One has spark the other not.
2. Swap plugs around = Problem still on same side.
3. Check coils. Swap wiring around = Still same side.
4. Swap ignition pickup sensor around. = Problem moves to other cylinder. = Pickup sensor or wiring from sensor to connector.
Time for that = max 1/2 hour with time to make a cuppa.

On the phone, find who has a sensor = 1/2 hour. Contact customer tell him they can have it here inside 5 days. Job $200 (two hours) sensor $200. Or (if they had me there...) tell him we can fit a similar one that keeps him going today. His choice, but no guarantee on that one.

Or am I just too old fashioned?


I think part of the problem is the apprenticeship system. We now have technicians. Also you have an Italian thing. My recent experience with Italian electrics, bike died with a fuel pump problem, technician said it needed a new $1550 fuel pump. Apprenticeship trained electrician said that the contacts were dirty,and put it back in. Hasn't missed a beat since. :shifty:
A good try! Charge $1,550 for cleaning the contacts!! Ohh...hang on, there would have been a few hours labour on top of that!

[CookMySock]

Or am I just too old fashioned?No, that is a genuine kiwi approach to things, and one that is widely valued in almost all situations, including bike workshops.

It's just that shops have to balance a number of political situations, whereas you are in a position to be able to ignore that.

Steve

[bogan]

I can get bike parts from the other side of the planet in three days, and thats over the weekend too. They should sort their shit out, not that they have to.

At the risk of bringing down the wrath of whinging bike shop staff, where do you get your parts from steve? I use wemoto.com as they have cheap parts and shipping ain't to excessive though they don't have much dirtbike stuff. In saying that the local shops are similar on price for parts that don't have to come from overseas.

[CookMySock]

I build up crashed or otherwise broken hyosung stuff, so thats all I buy - probably no use to you at all. There are a few things that are comparable in price locally - so I always check with the local bike shop first.

I only import stuff if its way way cheaper. Anything comparable in price and I support local, but sometimes ya just havta to with the cheaper deal or the whole thing is uneconomic.

Steve

[Brian d marge]

Hmm fixing things

lets just say you have to know what your are doing before you can go fixing things

it really can open a big tub of worms

and the REALLY annoying thing is that the genuine part is often a lot of crap that given a few hours I could make something far superior

Imagine all those black boxes I could have repaired if I could JUST get that black potting stuff out ......

Oh well back to my enfield

Stephen

[SMOKEU]

Honda wanted over $300 for a new fuel pump for my bike. So I went to a shop that specializes in parts for the old Minis and got a new fuel pump for $140. 6 months down the track and it runs fine. Sometimes you've just got to improvise.

[Conquiztador]

Had today a chat with the owner of the 400cc Duke this is about. Starts well, idles nicely and does well in city traffic. But on open road runs out of umph at 100k/h. No backfiring or strange stuff. Could be timing of that one coil/sensor I fitted. I suppose if it was too late, then she would only really run on one cylindre when up in revs? But I also wonder if some damage has been caused after 10 weeks running on one cylinder? There would have been petrol going through that other cylinder.

In any case a huge improvement. He will now hunt for the real one. But I might have a go at moving that sensor just a fraction...

[mdnzz]

Try looking for older bike parts and check out the prices. Subike prob even tell ya the replacement costs for some parts on his bike are stupid (have same bike so I know) and that aftermarket/fabricated parts can often be the only solution to an expensive problem.
But its not only bikes that do this, was in commercial automotive parts for a time and the mark up on some of those parts is scary, the problem is not the availability of the part or the demand. It is simple purely $$.
Economics 101 really make and affordable product, charge a fortune for replacement parts. Toyota been doing it for years.
I now know of only one mechanic that I will let work on my bikes now and his customer service is above reproach. He is happy to listen to your problem, pass on any advice he can or in the end work thru the problem with you.
If ya still having trouble then ya didn't listen to him right but he always happy to work on the bike as well, yea that may cost but he don't BS ya and will back up his workmanship.

[Katman]

Economics 101 really make and affordable product, charge a fortune for replacement parts. Toyota been doing it for years.


Ain't that the truth.

My wife was quoted $500 for a rear wheel bearing for her Curren by the local Toyota dealer. Tough luck for them as it was still within it's Signature Class warranty period.

[dipshit]

But I also wonder if some damage has been caused after 10 weeks running on one cylinder? There would have been petrol going through that other cylinder.

It wouldn't have been doing it any favours that's for sure. Uneven crake pressures and everything.

And make sure they give it an oil change ASAP. Unburnt petrol getting into the oil kills the oil real quick. (remember with no pressure in the cylinder, the rings will not be bedded so a lot of that unburnt petrol going through the cylinder will get past the rings and into the oil.)

[Conquiztador]

It wouldn't have been doing it any favours that's for sure. Uneven crake pressures and everything.

And make sure they give it an oil change ASAP. Unburnt petrol getting into the oil kills the oil real quick. (remember with no pressure in the cylinder, the rings will not be bedded so a lot of that unburnt petrol going through the cylinder will get past the rings and into the oil.)

Yep, mentioned to him re the oil change. The shop had never said a word...

[Conquiztador]

Just did some "research" and found this: http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/p8-pickup-pulse-coil-9413-0.html

They want US$50 for the bit. Did some other "research" also (all on the net) and obviously others have used these and solved the problem!

So today when I am on the go again I will contact him and tell him to order one.

<IMG class=Product_Image name=L9414img hspace=0 alt="P8 Pick-up Coil - <I>Hole spacing 30mm</I>" src="http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/images/p-coils/white/P8.jpg" width=300 height=200>

[whowhatwhere]

www.wemoto.com in the UK are also great.

[CookMySock]

.. on open road runs out of umph at 100k/h. No backfiring or strange stuff. Could be timing of that one coil/sensor I fitted.That sounds a little retarded.. :lol:


But I also wonder if some damage has been caused after 10 weeks running on one cylinder? There would have been petrol going through that other cylinder. Yes I am very surprised to hear he did that.



Just did some "research" and found this: http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/p8-pickup-pulse-coil-9413-0.htmlThat looks suspiciously similar to a hyo one. I got a known-good one in my junk box - wanna borrow it to try?


Steve

[Conquiztador]

That looks suspiciously similar to a hyo one. I got a known-good one in my junk box - wanna borrow it to try?
Steve

Thanks Steve. The owner has ordered one from the net now and we expect it here in a week. We know that is the problem, as the one I fitted got her working even if the high-revs are not perfect. But, as I mentioned, I am sure it is the positioning and perhaps also the gap. (Have learnt that the gap needs to be .5mm +- .05mm) And I know I would have fitted the one I found too far out.

He also told me that apart from the $400 they wanted for the pickup, they wanted $300 for the labour... $700 fitted and ready to go! I buy running bikes for that amount!!

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks Steve. The owner has ordered one from the net now and we expect it here in a week. We know that is the problem, as the one I fitted got her working even if the high-revs are not perfect. But, as I mentioned, I am sure it is the positioning and perhaps also the gap. (Have learnt that the gap needs to be .5mm +- .05mm) And I know I would have fitted the one I found too far out.

He also told me that apart from the $400 they wanted for the pickup, they wanted $300 for the labour... $700 fitted and ready to go! I buy running bikes for that amount!!
Well I guess if the bike shop had performed the same only partially successful job as you have theyd by now be named and shamed on this very forum and thered be yet another ''night of the long knives!'' But at least you have transparently owned up to it being less than successful and have researched why.
Trigger airgap is indeed very critical and can be laboriously optimised using a peak voltage meter or oscilloscope. At high rpm / load the gap is likely not correct to give a short sharp voltage buildup to ''light the fire''. A lethargic rise time and low peak voltage will also likely retard the timing a little.
Indeed $400 is obscene as is the delivery time and for some reason Ducati stuff is particularly bad. I wouldnt though blame the bike shop for the high price because their buy price is likely equally high. I would though blame them for a lack of imagination and that as much comes down to a big problem that affects nearly all bike shops ( and not only in NZ! ) LACK OF EXPERIENCE!!!!
I can well recall the 5 years that I worked in bike shops in London, if you think we have idiots here then you aint seen nothing! Expensive parts ordered that didnt fix the problem, oil drain plugs left undone and lots of drug related issues. ( I think theres a direct correlation there ) And heres a good one....''Why didnt you check the valve clearances as specified in the service schedule?" .......''Well I listened and it wasnt noisy! "...............''Ok, did you listen for the tight ones as well?'' Plonkers.
Spare a thought that the bike shop will likely end up owning that trigger as overseas procured items such as that are not returnable. Despite the fact that maybe it could have been gone about in a better way that covered everyones butts there was nonetheless a business agreement between the customer and the dealer to order the part. Very often projected delivery times arent as accurate as one would like and that is no fault of the dealer as it is largely out of their control. Sadly the Italians are particularly bad in this respect.
If indeed they end up owning this part they have my sympathy at least in respect of the loss they will incur.

[Conquiztador]

Well I guess if the bike shop had performed the same only partially successful job as you have theyd by now be named and shamed on this very forum and thered be yet another ''night of the long knives!'' But at least you have transparently owned up to it being less than successful and have researched why.
Trigger airgap is indeed very critical and can be laboriously optimised using a peak voltage meter or oscilloscope. At high rpm / load the gap is likely not correct to give a short sharp voltage buildup to ''light the fire''. A lethargic rise time and low peak voltage will also likely retard the timing a little.
Indeed $400 is obscene as is the delivery time and for some reason Ducati stuff is particularly bad. I wouldnt though blame the bike shop for the high price because their buy price is likely equally high. I would though blame them for a lack of imagination and that as much comes down to a big problem that affects nearly all bike shops ( and not only in NZ! ) LACK OF EXPERIENCE!!!!
I can well recall the 5 years that I worked in bike shops in London, if you think we have idiots here then you aint seen nothing! Expensive parts ordered that didnt fix the problem, oil drain plugs left undone and lots of drug related issues. ( I think theres a direct correlation there ) And heres a good one....''Why didnt you check the valve clearances as specified in the service schedule?" .......''Well I listened and it wasnt noisy! "...............''Ok, did you listen for the tight ones as well?'' Plonkers.
Spare a thought that the bike shop will likely end up owning that trigger as overseas procured items such as that are not returnable. Despite the fact that maybe it could have been gone about in a better way that covered everyones butts there was nonetheless a business agreement between the customer and the dealer to order the part. Very often projected delivery times arent as accurate as one would like and that is no fault of the dealer as it is largely out of their control. Sadly the Italians are particularly bad in this respect.
If indeed they end up owning this part they have my sympathy at least in respect of the loss they will incur.

Thanks for your comment Robert.

My response to you:

My "less than successful" job (as you call it) was done to get the second cylinder to run. Nothing else. It did, so that part was a success. (Considering that it was now 10 weeks since my mate went to the bike shop I think it is 1 - 0 to me at this stage. I am also a qualified Electronic Engineer and easily understand your explanation, but as I have no charasteristics for the "real" sensor or the one I grabbed I decided to do the cautios thing and rather than make it too early and too close, leave it on the safe side. After all, the only thing we wanted to achieve was to confirm that it was the sensor that was faulty.)

I have charged nothing and got the cylinder working, they already charged $400 and have produced nothing. ( 2 - 0 to me).

I warned my mate that the worst scenarion (after we knew that the pickup coil is working) would be a timing issue as it is not the right one. But I also told him that give it a go and I be happy to adjust it for you once I have a deeper look in to it. I have now done that and have the solution. Again, no solution from the bike shop ( 3 - 0 to me).

At the same stage I also did the simple research (over the web that anyone can access) and found the right sensor for a fraction of the price. I could have purchased the sensor with my credit card for US$40. Add some freight, and it would have been in my hands inside a week easily. The bike shop did do nothing of this kind. And after 10 weeks has produced nothing that anyone can fit in the bike. Add to that, that even if I added 100% to the price, the max my mate would have had to pay me was under $200. (Makes it 4 - 0 to me).

I promised my mate to contact him the next day with info re where he can, if he so wants to, find a sensor. I did that. It is called caring. To not be in contact in 10 week is a lack of anything. (5 - 0 to the backyard mechanic. That is what I call a clean wash!)

Robert, I have follows your posts on here, and I am not totally unsymphatetic towards your look at things. I also get the impression that your knowledge is beound approach. The ones that speak well about you clearly state that. But to stand up as a lone warrior to try and keep all bike shops/mechanic's honour is clear stupidity. If I was you I would defend my own reputation and knowledge and allow the others to sort them self. After all, not many on here thanking you. The only thing you are achieving is alienating possible future customers.

And lastly: You try to make my lack of getting it right straight away an issue. My mate has no problems with that. Nor do I. Why should I? I am not the one advertising how fucking brilliant I am... I have never told anyone that I am the bees knees re all and everyhing. But where I differ from the ones who took his $400 is that I care. And if they do not give him his $400 back I will go and get it for him. As you might have noticed, at no time have I mentioned the shops name. If they do not give him his $400 back that will change...

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks for your comment Robert.

My response to you:

My "less than successful" job (as you call it) was done to get the second cylinder to run. Nothing else. It did, so that part was a success. (Considering that it was now 10 weeks since my mate went to the bike shop I think it is 1 - 0 to me at this stage. I am also a qualified Electronic Engineer and easily understand your explanation, but as I have no charasteristics for the "real" sensor or the one I grabbed I decided to do the cautios thing and rather than make it too early and too close, leave it on the safe side. After all, the only thing we wanted to achieve was to confirm that it was the sensor that was faulty.)

I have charged nothing and got the cylinder working, they already charged $400 and have produced nothing. ( 2 - 0 to me).

I warned my mate that the worst scenarion (after we knew that the pickup coil is working) would be a timing issue as it is not the right one. But I also told him that give it a go and I be happy to adjust it for you once I have a deeper look in to it. I have now done that and have the solution. Again, no solution from the bike shop ( 3 - 0 to me).

At the same stage I also did the simple research (over the web that anyone can access) and found the right sensor for a fraction of the price. I could have purchased the sensor with my credit card for US$40. Add some freight, and it would have been in my hands inside a week easily. The bike shop did do nothing of this kind. And after 10 weeks has produced nothing that anyone can fit in the bike. Add to that, that even if I added 100% to the price, the max my mate would have had to pay me was under $200. (Makes it 4 - 0 to me).

I promised my mate to contact him the next day with info re where he can, if he so wants to, find a sensor. I did that. It is called caring. To not be in contact in 10 week is a lack of anything. (5 - 0 to the backyard mechanic. That is what I call a clean wash!)

Robert, I have follows your posts on here, and I am not totally unsymphatetic towards your look at things. I also get the impression that your knowledge is beound approach. The ones that speak well about you clearly state that. But to stand up as a lone warrior to try and keep all bike shops/mechanic's honour is clear stupidity. If I was you I would defend my own reputation and knowledge and allow the others to sort them self. After all, not many on here thanking you. The only thing you are achieving is alienating possible future customers.

And lastly: You try to make my lack of getting it right straight away an issue. My mate has no problems with that. Nor do I. Why should I? I am not the one advertising how fucking brilliant I am... I have never told anyone that I am the bees knees re all and everyhing. But where I differ from the ones who took his $400 is that I care. And if they do not give him his $400 back I will go and get it for him. As you might have noticed, at no time have I mentioned the shops name. If they do not give him his $400 back that will change...

No in fact I thought that I offered a very balanced post. Having been in the trade for nigh on 35 years I think I have a perspective for both sides of the coin, can see how issues are exacerbated by the new ways of the world and have also witnessed a degradation in standards of knowledge and service that dont only afflict this industry.
For myself I first trained as an aero engineer in the RNZAF, long before it was callously destroyed by Helen Clark. I then did an adult apprenticeship in motorcycle engineering in the late 70s prior to successive Governments destroying the apprenticeship system. In fact I sat my final A grade paper in NZ House in London back in 81 and at that time I believe A grade certification actually meant something, as opposed to the almost rubber stamp mentality of the current ''system''
There are in fact a number of very good and experienced mechanics in the trade but I also shake my head at the many that clearly are not. Its not enough to just be an enthusiast, there also needs to be a solid grounding of education / training and the willpower to do the job properly. On the flipside there are many customers who also wont spend the money ( within sensible constraints ) to allow the job to be done properly! In no way am I an apologist for shonky work but feel that all too often this forum witch hunts and derides many dealers when there are going to be in some instances a very plausible other side of the story.
In fact I applaud your initiative as much as I wonder aloud that the dealer didnt have the imagination at least in the first instance to research other procurement options. And yes the job was only partially successful, successful in that you proved the dealers diagnosis and got the bike back running on both of its cylinders. I recognised what was going on because I have also been there and jury rigged alternative trigger coils either because the oem part was temporarily unavailable, too damn expensive ( no argument there ) or in the case of many was part of the whole stator assembly. That is where I learnt emphatically that rise time and peak voltage etc are often critical.
Perhaps the dealer was gunshy about fitting an alternative because it might not have entirely fixed the problem. Also running around for several weeks on one cylinder is not exactly sympathetic to the engine.
Your efforts are stellar and your friend doesnt chastise you for not getting it right in one hit, no-one ( including me ) is criticising you for that. And being an electronics engineer you are very much in the box seat of being able to work out what is going on. But one of the points I was trying to make is that if the dealer had effected such a repair at low cost with the same initial result some customers would vent their anger on a forum such as this. But clearly the dealer was over cautious. I feel sorry for the customer but I also will feel sorry for the dealer if they end up owning that part.

[Conquiztador]

Robert: I add this to the equation: When my mate contacted them to try to sort this shamble, they could not even find the order for the sensor... I have no sympahty for the shop. None. I hope the sensor turns up (after I have collected the $400), and they then end up selling it for a loss only for the sensor to be faulty! THAT would be karma.

[sidecar bob]

Robert: I add this to the equation: When my mate contacted them to try to sort this shamble, they could not even find the order for the sensor... I have no sympahty for the shop. None. I hope the sensor turns up (after I have collected the $400), and they then end up selling it for a loss only for the sensor to be faulty! THAT would be karma.

Otherwise known as a $100 customer. Cheaper to give them $100 & tell them to fuck of, rather that buy into their shit.
If a franchise dealer sells "pirate" parts in favour of genuine for the model they support, they can have their dealership status revoked. That wouldnt bother you though, would it, because it wouldnt affect you.

[Conquiztador]

Otherwise known as a $100 customer. Cheaper to give them $100 & tell them to fuck of, rather that buy into their shit.
If a franchise dealer sells "pirate" parts in favour of genuine for the model they support, they can have their dealership status revoked. That wouldnt bother you though, would it, because it wouldnt affect you.

You are a likable character... And considering you have missed some vital points (and do not have all the facts) I think you should reconsider your comments:
1. The dealer is not a Duke agent. And so there is no chance for them to loose something that they do not have.
2. The dealer could easily have said: "Sorry, can not help you" and my mate would have kept on searching. Perhaps even gone to another shop that the first one could have recommended? No $100 needed. But that takes tact and your "Fuck Off" is clearly not the recommended wording to achieve this.
3. How can a Duke with a faulty pickup sensor be "shit"? A potential customer comes in with a genuine issue and asks for help. You consider it "shit"...

But I can easily see why you would write something like this on a Friday morning: You probably in the dogbox and need to take it out on someone. :beer:

[Robert Taylor]

You are a likable character... And considering you have missed some vital points (and do not have all the facts) I think you should reconsider your comments:
1. The dealer is not a Duke agent. And so there is no chance for them to loose something that they do not have.
2. The dealer could easily have said: "Sorry, can not help you" and my mate would have kept on searching. Perhaps even gone to another shop that the first one could have recommended? No $100 needed. But that takes tact and your "Fuck Off" is clearly not the recommended wording to achieve this.
3. How can a Duke with a faulty pickup sensor be "shit"? A potential customer comes in with a genuine issue and asks for help. You consider it "shit"...

But I can easily see why you would write something like this on a Friday morning: You probably in the dogbox and need to take it out on someone. :beer:

Certainly if the dealer couldnt find the order that is very bad. But this thread also raises a very interesting point about forums............very often not all the facts are presented and those that reply often surmise on the basis of the limited information that has been presented. Sometimes ( and Im not saying so in this case ) this appears to be almost deliberate so that the respondent can be gleefully shot down in flames.

[sidecar bob]

You are a likable character... And considering you have missed some vital points (and do not have all the facts) I think you should reconsider your comments:
1. The dealer is not a Duke agent. And so there is no chance for them to loose something that they do not have.
2. The dealer could easily have said: "Sorry, can not help you" and my mate would have kept on searching. Perhaps even gone to another shop that the first one could have recommended? No $100 needed. But that takes tact and your "Fuck Off" is clearly not the recommended wording to achieve this.
3. How can a Duke with a faulty pickup sensor be "shit"? A potential customer comes in with a genuine issue and asks for help. You consider it "shit"...

But I can easily see why you would write something like this on a Friday morning: You probably in the dogbox and need to take it out on someone. :beer:

Na not in the dog box at all. I dont really give a shit wether im right wrong or otherwise, i just tire of the old, "bike shop is shafting me" tale. Everyone seems to need to have a fuckin bleat about what a bunch of rip off cunts shops are.
Surely then the munter here is the bloke that put the cart before the horse & ordered a $400 part before satisfying themselves that there were better ways of castrating the goat.
If you came into my shop guns blazing asking for $400 back, there would likley be a bit of animated discussion before you left with said cash & me holding a part that is useless to me.
It only becomes "shit" when know all next door neighbour gets involved & convinces the owner that hes being ripped.
Potential customers order parts & come back & buy them, they dont fuck you around to the tune of $400. That would be a "potential pain in the arse"

[Conquiztador]

Na not in the dog box at all. I dont really give a shit wether im right wrong or otherwise, i just tire of the old, "bike shop is shafting me" tale. Everyone seems to need to have a fuckin bleat about what a bunch of rip off cunts shops are.
Surely then the munter here is the bloke that put the cart before the horse & ordered a $400 part before satisfying themselves that there were better ways of castrating the goat.
If you came into my shop guns blazing asking for $400 back, there would likley be a bit of animated discussion before you left with said cash & me holding a part that is useless to me.
It only becomes "shit" when know all next door neighbour gets involved & convinces the owner that hes being ripped.
Potential customers order parts & come back & buy them, they dont fuck you around to the tune of $400. That would be a "potential pain in the arse"

The guy was prepared to pay the $400. That is clear: He paid it! But after waiting for 10 weeks he was running out of patience and needed someones shoulder to cry on.
Enter me. As a passionate cunt I took pity on him and wanted to have a look. I had, and now this mess has popped up.

If they had got the sensor in, replaced it, and he was on the road he would have cried for a evening in his beer re the money. Then forgotten about it and happily been riding.

No matter how you turn this, the blame can only be pointed one way.

And this is after all a public forum where people have the right to bleat. If you run a shop and don't want to be mentioned here I have a simple solution: Treat your customers well and there will only be positive stuff said re you.

[sidecar bob]

Sweet as, somebody's got to make some noise on behalf of shops, & thats my job.
Fortunately i fix cars so arent exposed to the fickle bike set on a normal working day. Having said that, i have probably a dozen car clients that frequent this site & i think we understand each other.

[Brian d marge]

I got to say this again as highlighted by rrise time in the coil

While Some repairs are ok such bas fitting a clutch lever from a different model ( even that can be fraught with danger)

if you don't understand fully how a system works , a repair can open up a can of worms real quick

back in the day I machined up a timing belt pulley for someone , took a guess at the diameter , but got the belt angle wrong , new belt started to fail earlier than if i had just bought the correct part , In this case the repair got the person out of a bind BUT actually cost more in the long run

On saying the above

if I had to wait ten MIN for a replacement and it cost 400 dollars I to would be racing to me parts box !!!!

Now I have expensive computers and smart people and a whole Range of floatation test failures to avoid the YCS ( You C&%$T scenario)

Which reminds me back to work !!

Stephen

[Robert Taylor]

The guy was prepared to pay the $400. That is clear: He paid it! But after waiting for 10 weeks he was running out of patience and needed someones shoulder to cry on.
Enter me. As a passionate cunt I took pity on him and wanted to have a look. I had, and now this mess has popped up.

If they had got the sensor in, replaced it, and he was on the road he would have cried for a evening in his beer re the money. Then forgotten about it and happily been riding.

No matter how you turn this, the blame can only be pointed one way.

And this is after all a public forum where people have the right to bleat. If you run a shop and don't want to be mentioned here I have a simple solution: Treat your customers well and there will only be positive stuff said re you.

Maybe not and Im surmising here on the basis of the information that has been offered. Lead times are often unreliable and often it isnt even the manufacturers fault.

EXAMPLE, for many months last year I was awaiting Ohlins MX steering dampers, they never showed up with each successive adjusted supply date and I had grumpy customers who thought I was being useless.
What transpired that was behind it was Ohlins were recieving the main bodies from a subcontractor and with each successive batch they were unhappy with the quality of the material as its dimensional accuracy changed with age. Alloys do that and metallurgists who may read this will understand. Many batches were rejected by Ohlins and it became a nightmare through the chain of supply, especially those on the front line dealing with customers who often have no conception of manufacturing leadtimes and quality control issues that occur.
Ohlins is a product made in a ''proper'' country where they are preoccupied with the very best function and quality. Had it been a Chinese company they wouldnt likely have cared one iota. Which raises another point, China is taking more and more of the worlds raw materials and there has been a real issue with many companies sourcing material of the standard and quality that they want. Exactly what Ohlins problem was with these steering dampers.
Lead times have also increased for manufacture of many parts and therefore ultimately length of supply. This because many manufacturers and subcontractors to those manufacturers laid off lots of staff as the recession bit. That simply means they just dont have the capacity to do things as quickly anymore and this will be felt for a few years yet.
Im not saying it neccessarily applies in this case, but its very easy for someone who has no conception to get on a forum and bleat.

[Ixion]

I understand what you are saying

But I am not convinced that it is the complete picture

Some years ago I worked in the diesel parts business. We supplied parts for diesel engines. We had a concept called VOR - Vehicle Off Road. As the name implies it meant that the part was required because the vehicle (truck, excavator,bulldozer, generator etc etc ) was 'off the road'. that is a serious matter for the owener. He NEEDS that vehicle on the road, generating revenue, it pays his bills, and minor incidentals, like his family eating.

So, for a VOR , we would follow up the supply chain. We would call Australia. "Do you have an XXX in stock. Actually there, on the shelf , in front of your eyes?". "No, but you are expecting some. OK, can we follow up the line?" And repeat , going up the supply chain until we either found someone with the required unit (" Wonderful. Please ship it ,and charge through your normal channels" ) .Or, came to a dead end.Repeat, for other sources. Until we established that we couldn't source one anywhere. In the latter case, we would advise the owner,and tell him to take the vehicle to our workshop. They would improvise, do whatever was necessary to get the vehicle back on the road, even if only short term, or in a limited capacity.

Whcih sounds pretty much what the OP did.

[Conquiztador]

Maybe not and Im surmising here on the basis of the information that has been offered. Lead times are often unreliable and often it isnt even the manufacturers fault.

EXAMPLE, for many months last year I was awaiting Ohlins MX steering dampers, they never showed up with each successive adjusted supply date and I had grumpy customers who thought I was being useless.
What transpired that was behind it was Ohlins were recieving the main bodies from a subcontractor and with each successive batch they were unhappy with the quality of the material as its dimensional accuracy changed with age. Alloys do that and metallurgists who may read this will understand. Many batches were rejected by Ohlins and it became a nightmare through the chain of supply, especially those on the front line dealing with customers who often have no conception of manufacturing leadtimes and quality control issues that occur.
Ohlins is a product made in a ''proper'' country where they are preoccupied with the very best function and quality. Had it been a Chinese company they wouldnt likely have cared one iota. Which raises another point, China is taking more and more of the worlds raw materials and there has been a real issue with many companies sourcing material of the standard and quality that they want. Exactly what Ohlins problem was with these steering dampers.
Lead times have also increased for manufacture of many parts and therefore ultimately length of supply. This because many manufacturers and subcontractors to those manufacturers laid off lots of staff as the recession bit. That simply means they just dont have the capacity to do things as quickly anymore and this will be felt for a few years yet.
Im not saying it neccessarily applies in this case, but its very easy for someone who has no conception to get on a forum and bleat.

Robert, with all due respect. You are pissing in to the wind.

A customer walks in through the door. He wants help, not excuses and long winded explanation of how the Mongols are stealing all the alloy from the Vikings, creating a vacuum in Scandinavia that makes the Norse gods so angry that they make Rome fall. Therefore making in impossible to get any bits from Ducati. ;)

In my mates case we already know that the sensors are available. The shop (who is not a Duke dealer) should have asked from the supplier: "How long?". Then told my mate: "2 years". THEN tried to take his $$'s...

But this is all old news now. I have no issue with you, so will leave it here. And I will update as this is all sorted.

[98tls]

The guy was prepared to pay the $400. That is clear: He paid it! But after waiting for 10 weeks he was running out of patience and needed someones shoulder to cry on.
Enter me. As a passionate cunt I took pity on him and wanted to have a look. I had, and now this mess has popped up.

If they had got the sensor in, replaced it, and he was on the road he would have cried for a evening in his beer re the money. Then forgotten about it and happily been riding.

No matter how you turn this, the blame can only be pointed one way.

And this is after all a public forum where people have the right to bleat. If you run a shop and don't want to be mentioned here I have a simple solution: Treat your customers well and there will only be positive stuff said re you.
Easy isnt it.Totally agree with the public forum thing and tired of hearing the same old rant from no doubt good dealers defending the whole industry,Why there defending people they have never dealt with is beyond me but whilst i acknowledge there loyalty they need to get there head outta the sand.Even in this small town theres a supposed very well respected dealer that i will never bother dealing with again in my lifetime because he couldnt be fucked ordering me 2 cables when only one of them would fit,both made by the company he was representing.Right from the get go it was pretty obvious this guy had long lost any passion for bikes and was simply fucking bored.

[Motu]

. But this thread also raises a very interesting point about forums............very often not all the facts are presented and those that reply often surmise on the basis of the limited information that has been presented. Sometimes ( and Im not saying so in this case ) this appears to be almost deliberate so that the respondent can be gleefully shot down in flames.

The reason I very seldom get involved in threads like this - after 3 pages finally the full story comes out,rendering all previous post junk...apart from the OP,he is vindicated.After bashing my head against the brick wall too many times I've given up helping people on this forum about mechanical matters.No great loss,I know fuck all anyway.

[Robert Taylor]

Robert, with all due respect. You are pissing in to the wind.

A customer walks in through the door. He wants help, not excuses and long winded explanation of how the Mongols are stealing all the alloy from the Vikings, creating a vacuum in Scandinavia that makes the Norse gods so angry that they make Rome fall. Therefore making in impossible to get any bits from Ducati. ;)

In my mates case we already know that the sensors are available. The shop (who is not a Duke dealer) should have asked from the supplier: "How long?". Then told my mate: "2 years". THEN tried to take his $$'s...

But this is all old news now. I have no issue with you, so will leave it here. And I will update as this is all sorted.

I wasnt trying to neccessarily make a connection, it is clear that in this case there is a supply problem with the oem part and that its overpriced. I dont recall arguing to the contrary. I also recall stating that the dealer lacked the imagination ( perhaps ) to research alternatives.
I was using this thread as a vehicle to illustrate just one of many scenarios that can happen with supply. Cold and clinical and no need of trivialisation. Think of it in light of taking the trouble to spend time to illustrate to those interested enough to read that often things are more complex than is thought.
Ive worked at retail level and Ive also worked at wholesale level as a former national technical manager for the former NZ Yamaha distributors. I believe I did that job to apretty reasonable standard and helped a lot of people but also didnt suffer fools ( no apologies ) I can recall in many instances sorting out 100% foolproof ways of fixing problems, including on more than one occassion identifying different electrical components that saved purchasing a whole stator assembly.
Now I work directly as a distributor talking directly to the supplying manufacturer. To that end I just think I might be well enough qualified to comment on supply issues.

[98tls]

The reason I very seldom get involved in threads like this - after 3 pages finally the full story comes out,rendering all previous post junk...apart from the OP,he is vindicated.After bashing my head against the brick wall too many times I've given up helping people on this forum about mechanical matters.No great loss,I know fuck all anyway.

Surely you knew that from the get go,despite its title this place is more akin to some kind of wank fest like facebook/teenager daily or similar websites ive heard of.Theres some interesting motorcycle knowledgeable people but far outnumbered by A those that indeed own one with no riding or mechanical ability whatsoever or B those that also own one and think that experience/ability/knowledge are things they purchased when buying the latest fashion statement and worse still pass it on via the interweb.Then theres the North Islanders.

[Robert Taylor]

The reason I very seldom get involved in threads like this - after 3 pages finally the full story comes out,rendering all previous post junk...apart from the OP,he is vindicated.After bashing my head against the brick wall too many times I've given up helping people on this forum about mechanical matters.No great loss,I know fuck all anyway.

Thanks for concurring and you do have to wonder at times how many posts are economised of the full facts. To that end although I feel I have helped with respect to an understanding of the trigger function I may indeed be ''pissing into the wind''.
Everyone deserves a fair hearing including the said dealer ( who may well have failed to carry out the whole exercise properly, on several counts ) But given the kangaroo courts / roving sharks on this forum can you blame dealers for being reluctant to participate ??

[98tls]

Thanks for concurring and you do have to wonder at times how many posts are economised of the full facts. To that end although I feel I have helped with respect to an understanding of the trigger function I may indeed be ''pissing into the wind''.
Everyone deserves a fair hearing including the said dealer ( who may well have failed to carry out the whole exercise properly, on several counts ) But given the kangaroo courts / roving sharks on this forum can you blame dealers for being reluctant to participate ??

From observations in my lifetime i doubt some of them have the energy to bother replying to critics on the Interweb,worn out from another day of indifference at work.

[Robert Taylor]

Surely you knew that from the get go,despite its title this place is more akin to some kind of wank fest like facebook/teenager daily or similar websites ive heard of.Theres some interesting motorcycle knowledgeable people but far outnumbered by A those that indeed own one with no riding or mechanical ability whatsoever or B those that also own one and think that experience/ability/knowledge are things they purchased when buying the latest fashion statement and worse still pass it on via the interweb.Then theres the North Islanders.

There are several types of North Islanders as much as there are several types of South Islanders, but no need to go there. I take people as I find them. Some of what you have said is on the money. But I am a consumer as well and there are several products that I would purchase that I know very little about nor have the inclination or time to research. By that I mean proper research, as opposed to having to sift through often shonky ''information'' posted on forums.
I prefer to deal with experts in their field, but that is becoming harder and harder to find. If there is aparts procurement isue then I would reasonably expect the dealer to exhaust all reasonable options, as long as their margin wasnt totally expended in doing so. Give and take....

[Conquiztador]

If there is aparts procurement isue then I would reasonably expect the dealer to exhaust all reasonable options, as long as their margin wasnt totally expended in doing so. Give and take....

Thanks! 10 char

[98tls]

There are several types of North Islanders as much as there are several types of South Islanders, but no need to go there. I take people as I find them. Some of what you have said is on the money. But I am a consumer as well and there are several products that I would purchase that I know very little about nor have the inclination or time to research. By that I mean proper research, as opposed to having to sift through often shonky ''information'' posted on forums.
I prefer to deal with experts in their field, but that is becoming harder and harder to find. If there is aparts procurement isue then I would reasonably expect the dealer to exhaust all reasonable options, as long as their margin wasnt totally expended in doing so. Give and take....

Actually R the other Isle thing was just taking the piss,lived up yonder for many years myself.Hard to have a differing opinion with someone you respect immensely in there field made worse by the fact that my opinion is in no way directed at you.Fact is for many many years i have been pissing about with bikes and for a time worked in the industry,some of the best laughs ive had on here have been whilst reading posts from some of the supposed motorcycle salesman (shit mentioning thems started me laughing at them again)on here,from where i sit the motorcycle retail business has done nothing but bend over and ask for an arse raping.Then complain when there arse hurts.

[Conquiztador]

Update:

My mate went to get his $$'s back as he was planning to grab the pickup from the net. The bikeshop asked how much the pickup was, and he told them $120. So, they promised to get one for him for the same price... He gave them a week to do so. Went back and asked for it after the week. Was told that it would take a minimum of 12 days as there was none in NZ (we already knew that). BUT they noticed a oil leak from the top and offered to fix that (will most probably cost him), AND they gave him a loaner until the leak is fixed and the pickup sensor is replaced and sorted.

Will give a final update when he has his Duke back.

[peasea]

AND they gave him a loaner until the leak is fixed and the pickup sensor is replaced and sorted.

Why didn't they do that in the first place?

I actually like Ducati motorcycles but I'd never own one because of all the frickin' nightmare-ish stories you hear and this is just another one.