The chance of a lifetime: You are asked to start a bike shop. How should it be done?

[sidecar bob]

The old codgers who are bumping into trees are far outweighed by the young guns that think they know how everything should be done, yet are too timid or broke to put it to effect themselves. Prefering to convince the jaded old bastards to put their hard earned cash into hair brained ill concieved ideas, so they can loose it all.
The school of hard knocks & tough surprises makes one a little more wary than doing a uni degree.
What ive discovered is that the more money you have, the more free advice you get on how to spend it from people that have none.
touchee touchee
While originally not meant to be taken literally, on second thoughts why not?
One of the original drivers for wholesalers was the efficient distribution of goods and the efficient movement of money to pay for these goods. Both activities being labour intensive.
A lot has changed over the years.
Today paying for goods is fully automated, and modern warehouses are full of robots doing the picking and packing. Transport isnt a problem. So there is no real barrier to individuals or retail shops ordering direct from the factory.
Except old codgers who keep bumping into trees

[Scorp]

If you don't sell in the US you don't have to compete with the US market, if you want to set up shop in NZ you just have to price compeditively in NZ, if its and online shop in NZ then you will want to be compeditive with online shops overseas that ship to NZ, got it?
:gob: Erm... you're joking right?

Of course you have to compete with US online stores! Just like NZ high street bike stores also have to compete with online US stores. That's the whole point of this thread isn't it? That the internet (which is global) is competing with NZ retail.

If a bike shop owner had said on this thread: "I don't have to compete with the US market, I just have to price compeditively in NZ", he'd have been well chewed up by a lot of posters here.

The key problem, as put forward on this thread is that...Overseas Online shopping prices are killing NZ bike shops.

Most of the online operators offering the best prices are in the USA. The reason they can offer such good prices is because they can bulk buy and realize huge economies of scale. If you set up the NZ based online store you're talking about, you may indeed be able to match UK online store prices, you also be able to match and even beat NZ bike store prices. But you will never be able to beat US online store prices.

As such, your online NZ business model will suffer the same problems that existing online NZ stores, and existing NZ mainstreet bike shops suffer - namely that bikers can buy cheaper from US based websites.

All you'd be doing by setting up your new online store, is adding to the existing internal market pressure.

By way of illustrating this, here's an example of prices for one item (I'm choosing this example simply because I bought one from an NZ bike shop on Saturday).

Item: Shoei Raid II Helmet (Wine Red)

NZ Bike Shop price to me: $549
NZ online (http://www.motomail.co.nz/eStore/Style/SHHERAID2.aspx) price: $549 plus p&p
Australian online store (http://www.mcas.com.au/_product.php?section=1&prodid=4360) price: AUD$679.95 plus p&p. Total: NZ$883 plus p&p
UK online store (http://www.bikingdirect.com/shoei/raid-2/shoei-raid-2-helmet-10832-p.html)price: (STG£215 + £57.95 p&p = £272.95) Total: NZ$588.57
US online store (http://www.newenough.com/street/helmets_eyewear/closed_face/shoei/tzr_solid_motorcycle_helmet.html) price*: (US$273.59 + $67.34 p&p = US$340.93) Total: NZ$478.31

So as you can see, the only way to beat the NZ bike shop price, is to buy online from the US. This pattern holds true for all the other gear I've been looking at over the last month.
I know the above example is just one product, and I know it's not parts. But the market forces at play are the same.


The post i told you to read (I'm guessing you didnt, or didnt understand it) shows that buying 10 items from on overseas online store and reselling in NZ in smaller quantities means you can offer the same price to NZ customers as they could get the part here from the UK, this takes into account postage and GST as well.
Oh, I read it and understood it perfectly. But why should I buy from an online NZ store as opposed to a physical NZ bike shop, when the retail price is the same?! (N.B. Your quote above says: "offer the same price".) Especially when the guy who owns the bike shop knows me, will let me try stuff on, and will give me discount in return for loyalty?

P.S. 10 items hardly constitutes buying in bulk.


Now if you can buy from the wholseller that supplies the overseas online store, the cost would decrease and you could make a tidy profit is my theory, so far nobody has poked any holes in it that I'm satisfied with.
Okay, here's the hole. Watch out, it's a big one...

How do you propose to carry the same stock range as guys like Revzilla (http://www.revzilla.com/) and also compete on price? If bikers in NZ can buy online from these mega-stockists cheaper than they can buy online from you, who do you think they're going to buy from?

Just because you have calculated that you can buy in bulk and sell at a profit - doesn't mean you can actually actively compete in the marketplace with the big, big boys. Nor does it explain how you're going to tackle the very same market phenomenon that's pressurizing high street retailers, i.e. mega-stocking US online operators like Revzilla.

*The US/Aus Shoei entry level helmet which seems to correspond to Raid II is called the TZ-R. I could be wrong, but the features look the same.

[bogan]

The old codgers who are bumping into trees are far outweighed by the young guns that think they know how everything should be done, yet are too timid or broke to put it to effect themselves. Prefering to convince the jaded old bastards to put their hard earned cash into hair brained ill concieved ideas, so they can loose it all.
The school of hard knocks & tough surprises makes one a little more wary than doing a uni degree.

Don't be taking it so personally, I'm enither planning on putting it into effect, or convincing someone else to do it. I merely wish to understand why industry types are stating again and again that it cannot work, yet can't back thier statements up. The reasons given so far do convince me that its not a foolproof or easy idea to put into effect, but I'm far from convinced it's impossible . I spose what I'm trying to say is I don't like naysayers, and thats what many in this thread are coming off as.

[bogan]

:gob: Erm... you're joking right?

Of course you have to compete with US online stores! Just like NZ high street bike stores also have to compete with online US stores. That's the whole point of this thread isn't it? That the internet (which is global) is competing with NZ retail.
read what I wrote, I said you would have to be compeditive with overseas online shops.

I'll give you an example, a part costs $70NZD if you buy it in UK, but you're not in UK and the cheapest you can get it here is $84NZD, this is because there is extra freight costs associated with shipping from UK, bike shop here could do it for $124NZD. So to be compeditive which price do you need to sell them at here?


So as you can see, the only way to beat the NZ bike shop price, is to buy online from the US. This pattern holds true for all the other gear I've been looking at over the last month.
I know the above example is just one product, and I know it's not parts. But the market forces at play are the same.

agreed, as things are now, I'm trying to figure out If they could be different, If things were as I think they could be they whole discusion would be moot wouldnt it?

Oh, I read it and understood it perfectly. But why should I buy from an online NZ store as opposed to a physical NZ bike shop, when the retail price is the same?! (N.B. Your quote above says: "offer the same price".) Especially when the guy who owns the bike shop knows me, will let me try stuff on, and will give me discount in return for loyalty?

Refering to my above example, the price matched would be the $84 equivalent to the overseas online store, it is still a lot cheaper than the part from the bike shop here.


P.S. 10 items hardly constitutes buying in bulk.

Exactly, if things look possible at 10 items, surely it will look a lot better at 100!



Okay, here's the hole. Watch out, it's a big one...

How do you propose to carry the same stock range as guys like Revzilla (http://www.revzilla.com/) and also compete on price? If bikers in NZ can buy online from these mega-stockists cheaper than they can buy online from you, who do you think they're going to buy from?

Just because you have calculated that you can buy in bulk and sell at a profit - doesn't mean you can actually actively compete in the marketplace with the big, big boys. Nor does it explain how you're going to tackle the very same market phenomenon that's pressurizing high street retailers, i.e. mega-stocking US online operators like Revzilla.

You're right, that is a hole, but I'm not thinking bout that atm, my assertion was only that parts could be brought to NZD and be compeditively price with international online stores, If I'm right about that then I can think about the other bits (I cant be assed trying to do both at once), many have disagreed and said that parts cannot be brought here and be compeditively priced with the online shops so I'd like conclude that point first, make sense?

[Scorp]

Hi Bogan,

First, an apology for misreading your earlier post. Hands up to that one. But I think you see where I'm coming from on the economies of scale argument. And competing with the US operators.

Secondly...


I'll give you an example, a part costs $70NZD if you buy it in UK, but you're not in UK and the cheapest you can get it here is $84NZD, this is because there is extra freight costs associated with shipping from UK, bike shop here could do it for $124NZD. So to be compeditive which price do you need to sell them at here?
To be competitive all you'd need to do is undercut the retail price less maybe 15% for store discount. So somewhere around the $100 mark ought to do it. But only if you can buy the parts, ship them in, store them, advertise them, and sell 100% of them at a profit. Unsold stock will really kill your overall profit.

But you'd also need to be able to source the parts from a supplier who'd be happy for you to undercut NZ prices for your proposed inventory. This could be harder than you think, as the UK wholesaler may already have some very good customers here they'd wish to keep happy.

And thirdly...


You're right, that is a hole, but I'm not thinking bout that atm, my assertion was only that parts could be brought to NZD and be compeditively price with international online stores, If I'm right about that then I can think about the other bits (I cant be assed trying to do both at once), many have disagreed and said that parts cannot be brought here and be compeditively priced with the online shops so I'd like conclude that point first, make sense?
... the more I think about your 'parts-only' plan, the more I think you could be on to something. If you could identify and stock a small inventory of a few dozen of the most in-demand parts across the widest possible number of motorcycles, then advertise them right here on KB, and run distribution from a small home-based unit, you could probably build a strong small business.

[laserracer]

i would like to walk into a bike shop to be greeted by happy smiley people ..a shop that has reasonable prices for there parts and service .. and a garden bar not serving alcohol but good coffee and hot roast beef sandwich's somewhere you can sit with like minded enthusiasts and chat about buying new bikes and what parts you need

[breakaway]

Would also be nice if they had a tandoor and serve up delicious tandoori chicken etc at a reasonable price.

[bogan]

Hi Bogan,

First, an apology for misreading your earlier post. Hands up to that one. But I think you see where I'm coming from on the economies of scale argument. And competing with the US operators.


no worries, is a lot to read in here :yes: it certainly would make the whole system more attractive, but for the initial startup thing its not really an option.



To be competitive all you'd need to do is undercut the retail price less maybe 15% for store discount. So somewhere around the $100 mark ought to do it. But only if you can buy the parts, ship them in, store them, advertise them, and sell 100% of them at a profit. Unsold stock will really kill your overall profit.

But you'd also need to be able to source the parts from a supplier who'd be happy for you to undercut NZ prices for your proposed inventory. This could be harder than you think, as the UK wholesaler may already have some very good customers here they'd wish to keep happy.


hmmm, yes it would hinge on that, though If one was serious about this plan such a fact would be found out in the early stages I am guessing? I have no idea on how one gets a wholeseller.



... the more I think about your 'parts-only' plan, the more I think you could be on to something. If you could identify and stock a small inventory of a few dozen of the most in-demand parts across the widest possible number of motorcycles, then advertise them right here on KB, and run distribution from a small home-based unit, you could probably build a strong small business.

Yeh, I was initially thinking just cheap parts with big lead times, but your take on it sounds equally valid.

[Katman]

Exactly, if things look possible at 10 items, surely it will look a lot better at 100!


Are you married to a bank manager?

Let's develop your idea a little further.

Are you going to bring in 1 each of 100 different items? Or are you going to bring in 100 units of the same item?

If it's 100 units of the same item, which item are you going to choose? Do you think there is the market in NZ to sell every one of your units? What are you going to do with the ones that don't sell because a new model comes out next year? If you decide to sell any unsold items at cost, how is that going to affect your profit? (Considering you set your retail price based on the plan of selling 100 units at that retail price).

If you're going to bring in 1 each of 100 different items, what happens if you sell 1 item this week and next week another person wants one of the very same item? Are you going to get in just that one item or are you going to order another 99 different stock items along with it to keep your freight per item cost down? Or are you going to wait until you receive 99 other orders for items and risk incurring the wrath of the customer that wanted that first item within 3-4 days? If you order in just that single item are you going to be able to offer it at the same price?

[bogan]

Are you married to a bank manager?

Let's develop your idea a little further.

Are you going to bring in 1 each of 100 different items? Or are you going to bring in 100 units of the same item?

If it's 100 units of the same item, which item are you going to choose? Do you think there is the market in NZ to sell every one of your units? What are you going to do with the ones that don't sell because a new model comes out next year? If you decide to sell any unsold items at cost, how is that going to affect your profit? (Considering you set your retail price based on the plan of selling 100 units at that retail price).

If you're going to bring in 1 each of 100 different items, what happens if you sell 1 item this week and next week another person wants one of the very same item? Are you going to get in just that one item or are you going to order another 99 different stock items along with it to keep your freight per item cost down? Or are you going to wait until you have 99 other items that need ordering and risk incurring the wrath of the customer that wanted that first item within 3-4 days? If you order in just that single item are you going to be able to offer it at the same price?

Cheap parts with big lead times would be the plan (so basically carry nothing in stock), not everyone would be happy with that of course, but it'd be the minimum risk and minimum startup cost.

The long lead times would probably put a lot of people off, but they probably arent the ones getting the stuff online anyway, personally I dont mind that as I have quite a few bits that can wait, sometime even forget what I've ordered (and paid for) so its like christmas when it comes in the mail :D

[Katman]

Cheap parts with big lead times would be the plan (so basically carry nothing in stock), not everyone would be happy with that of course, but it'd be the minimum risk and minimum startup cost.

The long lead times would probably put a lot of people off, but they probably arent the ones getting the stuff online anyway, personally I dont mind that as I have quite a few bits that can wait, sometime even forget what I've ordered (and paid for) so its like christmas when it comes in the mail :D

Welcome to the yawning chasm that seperates theory from reality.

[bogan]

Welcome to the yawning chasm that seperates theory from reality.

Perhaps you're being a bit of a woodsman there? (old codgers bumping into trees and whatnot :laugh:)

You have always done things with parts in stock etc, so can't see how it can be done otherwise, the theory I described is kind of like JIT (just in time) manufacturing (holy crap I did learn something from that paper :lol:), where the idea is to have minimum levels of stock to bring down operating overheads, of course they must also have enough to keep the machinery/workers going, and manufacturing it is easier to plan as you don't get last minute jobs etc, however the theory is the same.

[Katman]

Perhaps you're being a bit of a woodsman there? (old codgers bumping into trees and whatnot :laugh:)

You have always done things with parts in stock etc, so can't see how it can be done otherwise, the theory I described is kind of like JIT (just in time) manufacturing (holy crap I did learn something from that paper :lol:), where the idea is to have minimum levels of stock to bring down operating overheads, of course they must also have enough to keep the machinery/workers going, and manufacturing it is easier to plan as you don't get last minute jobs etc, however the theory is the same.

*I palm my face*

[Swoop]

Look,You're Kiwis,you live in a third world country with first world desire for toys,but are only willing to pay the lowest price.

Quote of the thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Scorp]

Cheap parts with big lead times would be the plan (so basically carry nothing in stock), not everyone would be happy with that of course, but it'd be the minimum risk and minimum startup cost.
Got a sneaky suspicion that Fishpond do something like that with their books. Their pricing is close to Amazon's, and they're lead times are way slower. I don't even bother looking on Fishpond, just go straight to Amazon.

I think you'll find, if you do the sums, that unless you carry stock and buy in substantial quantities, that you'll never create enough margin for yourself to make a living.

Let's take your example of the part you reckon you can bring in for $84 and which sells in your local bike shop for $124. Check out the NZ Post's parcel rates, and you're going to find that P&P is probably going to add another $10 if you're sending it somewhere in the North Island. So your all in cost to your customer is now $94.

In order to make it worth your customers while waiting for your long lead times, you'll need to undercut your local bike shop by at least $20 or people are just going to pay the extra. And if, and it's a fairly big if, people are prepared to wait the extra time just to save $20, that leaves you a $10 profit per sale before operating and marketing costs and tax. That's pretty slim pickings.

Hence my suggestion that you find a product that enjoys a steady/regular demand, buy in bulk, then sell at a competitive rate. You'd also need to produce aggressive ads and place them on sites like KB, e.g. offering special price deals to the first 1,000 buyers, or within the next 10 days, in order to maximise your chances of clearing the stock as quickly as possible.

If you could lower the unit cost for your part to $50 if you buy 1,000 and clear the lot over a 10 day aggressive sale with a very competitive price of say $70 plus postage and packing. You could beat the high street price by $45 and still clear $20 per unit.

[bogan]

Got a sneaky suspicion that Fishpond do something like that with their books. Their pricing is close to Amazon's, and they're lead times are way slower. I don't even bother looking on Fishpond, just go straight to Amazon.


well aparently they aint doing too badly though

Having started as a one man band, Fishpond is now 25 employees strong, after just 3 years in the market.



I think you'll find, if you do the sums, that unless you carry stock and buy in substantial quantities, that you'll never create enough margin for yourself to make a living.

Let's take your example of the part you reckon you can bring in for $84 and which sells in your local bike shop for $124. Check out the NZ Post's parcel rates, and you're going to find that P&P is probably going to add another $10 if you're sending it somewhere in the North Island. So your all in cost to your customer is now $94.

In order to make it worth your customers while waiting for your long lead times, you'll need to undercut your local bike shop by at least $20 or people are just going to pay the extra. And if, and it's a fairly big if, people are prepared to wait the extra time just to save $20, that leaves you a $10 profit per sale before operating and marketing costs and tax. That's pretty slim pickings.

Hence my suggestion that you find a product that enjoys a steady/regular demand, buy in bulk, then sell at a competitive rate. You'd also need to produce aggressive ads and place them on sites like KB, e.g. offering special price deals to the first 1,000 buyers, or within the next 10 days, in order to maximise your chances of clearing the stock as quickly as possible.

If you could lower the unit cost for your part to $50 if you buy 1,000 and clear the lot over a 10 day aggressive sale with a very competitive price of say $70 plus postage and packing. You could beat the high street price by $45 and still clear $20 per unit.

I had factored in a $5GBP NZ post cost, so bout 10NZD was already in there ;) And in theory the extra delays caused by reposting in NZ should only be a couple of days, so not overly inconvenient on top of a shipping time of 2 weeks or more.

Yeh I hear what you are saying, If I had the money and was serious I'd definetly look into stocking items etc and buying as direct as possible, but that takes more research than I'm gonna do. My point is that it is possible to get parts here and sell them from an NZ company who's prices are competitive with international stores. I'm not quite sure what my original reason for proving this point was :confused: probly just an attempt to shut the nay-sayers up :laugh:

[Katman]

Hence my suggestion that you find a product that enjoys a steady/regular demand, buy in bulk, then sell at a competitive rate.

Surely you're not suggesting that someone selling one product is going to satisfy New Zealands motorcyclists.

All that's going to do is make that one person a profit while not gaining anything for motorcyclists - except one product that they can get cheaper than in a bike shop.

[Conquiztador]

Yeh I hear what you are saying, If I had the money and was serious I'd definetly look into stocking items etc and buying as direct as possible, but that takes more research than I'm gonna do. My point is that it is possible to get parts here and sell them from an NZ company who's prices are competitive with international stores. I'm not quite sure what my original reason for proving this point was :confused: probly just an attempt to shut the nay-sayers up :laugh:

Back for more...

Here a scenario: We have a faulty bike. We go to the local shop and want the bit. They tell us it is $500. We say: "SHIT! Thats expensive. But I need one, so yeah, I'll take it". We then have to pay the $500 up front so they order it. They contact their NZ distributor/importer who contacts their overseas distributor who gets it from the factory. This takes ages and we get peed off. We were peed off at the high price, but decided to pay as we really need that bit. But the real anger comes in when the bit does not arrive before 2 months later.

Yep, we can do some websurfing and find a supplier of that bit, probably 1/2 price (or less). Then we need to have a credit card, do the ordering and all that goes with it. And it turns up in our letterbox a week later. But we also need to have some knowledge (that takes some time to learn, and we most probably will never need again...)

How bout a company that sorted all that hassle for us? We contact "Find-A-Bit" and tell them what we want. They ring/email us back inside an hour and say: We can have it here in a week. Cost you $400. Pay by internet banking, post a cheque (you will have to wait for clearance) or deposit cash in to our account. A week later we have the bit.

We would pay them for doing the web searching, for having a credit card with cash on it and for the service, while we could go on with our life earning our hourly rate, washing the dog or watching footy on TV.

Find-A-Bit would slowly start to get a reputation of doing a good job (A little like the Doctor), they would start to build a relationship with some of the overseas suppliers and perhaps start to get a little better prices. They could get an agreement with a courier company so their costs would go down. And here is a business model that needs very little money up front...

Right all nay sayers, shoot a hole in that one. ;)

[Katman]

Right all nay sayers, shoot a hole in that one. ;)

Does 'Find-a-Bit' handle the warranty claims?

Whose headache is it if the wrong part is sent?

Which part will 'Find-a-Bit' source? The cheapest part, or a good quality part? (Or just whichever part gives them the best margin?)

[bogan]

Right all nay sayers, shoot a hole in that one. ;)

Nay, can't see any holes in that one :niceone:. With the amount of info and parts diagrams freely available online it probably wouldn't take too long to find the bits either.

[PeeJay]

Back for more...

Here a scenario: We have a faulty bike. We go to the local shop and want the bit. They tell us it is $500. We say: "SHIT! Thats expensive. But I need one, so yeah, I'll take it". We then have to pay the $500 up front so they order it. They contact their NZ distributor/importer who contacts their overseas distributor who gets it from the factory. This takes ages and we get peed off. We were peed off at the high price, but decided to pay as we really need that bit. But the real anger comes in when the bit does not arrive before 2 months later.

Yep, we can do some websurfing and find a supplier of that bit, probably 1/2 price (or less). Then we need to have a credit card, do the ordering and all that goes with it. And it turns up in our letterbox a week later. But we also need to have some knowledge (that takes some time to learn, and we most probably will never need again...)

How bout a company that sorted all that hassle for us? We contact "Find-A-Bit" and tell them what we want. They ring/email us back inside an hour and say: We can have it here in a week. Cost you $400. Pay by internet banking, post a cheque (you will have to wait for clearance) or deposit cash in to our account. A week later we have the bit.

We would pay them for doing the web searching, for having a credit card with cash on it and for the service, while we could go on with our life earning our hourly rate, washing the dog or watching footy on TV.

Find-A-Bit would slowly start to get a reputation of doing a good job (A little like the Doctor), they would start to build a relationship with some of the overseas suppliers and perhaps start to get a little better prices. They could get an agreement with a courier company so their costs would go down. And here is a business model that needs very little money up front...

Right all nay sayers, shoot a hole in that one. ;)

But But But you just dont understand. It (whatever it is) doesnt work that way.

Good idea, I know a guy doing that part time, word of mouth advertising. Basically his customers are those who are still afraid to give their credit card details to the internet.
He ended up in a shitfight with someone who ordered the wrong part and then wanted their money back. Didnt want to pay the courier fees or the restocking fee. Disputes tribunal found against the customer, found that the entrepreneur was a facilitator, offering a service and wasnt actually a retailer of parts.
So could be a go if it was organised properly.

[Robert Taylor]

Back for more...

Here a scenario: We have a faulty bike. We go to the local shop and want the bit. They tell us it is $500. We say: "SHIT! Thats expensive. But I need one, so yeah, I'll take it". We then have to pay the $500 up front so they order it. They contact their NZ distributor/importer who contacts their overseas distributor who gets it from the factory. This takes ages and we get peed off. We were peed off at the high price, but decided to pay as we really need that bit. But the real anger comes in when the bit does not arrive before 2 months later.

Yep, we can do some websurfing and find a supplier of that bit, probably 1/2 price (or less). Then we need to have a credit card, do the ordering and all that goes with it. And it turns up in our letterbox a week later. But we also need to have some knowledge (that takes some time to learn, and we most probably will never need again...)

How bout a company that sorted all that hassle for us? We contact "Find-A-Bit" and tell them what we want. They ring/email us back inside an hour and say: We can have it here in a week. Cost you $400. Pay by internet banking, post a cheque (you will have to wait for clearance) or deposit cash in to our account. A week later we have the bit.

We would pay them for doing the web searching, for having a credit card with cash on it and for the service, while we could go on with our life earning our hourly rate, washing the dog or watching footy on TV.

Find-A-Bit would slowly start to get a reputation of doing a good job (A little like the Doctor), they would start to build a relationship with some of the overseas suppliers and perhaps start to get a little better prices. They could get an agreement with a courier company so their costs would go down. And here is a business model that needs very little money up front...

Right all nay sayers, shoot a hole in that one. ;)

Parts people and dealers in the industry that are onto it are already doing this and have done so for years. Dont ask me to quote whom but there are people that do so

[Robert Taylor]

Welcome to the yawning chasm that seperates theory from reality.

Exactly, you and me as old and past it naysayers are actually living in day to day reality and providing good service to our customers.

Youth and beauty are no match for age and treachery. Or to put it another way experience does actually count for a hell of a lot.

[Robert Taylor]

Does 'Find-a-Bit' handle the warranty claims?

Whose headache is it if the wrong part is sent?

Which part will 'Find-a-Bit' source? The cheapest part, or a good quality part? (Or just whichever part gives them the best margin?)

Plus cost of holding stock, bank interest charges, insurance etc etc. This guy is living in pixieland.

[sidecar bob]

Nay, can't see any holes in that one :niceone:. With the amount of info and parts diagrams freely available online it probably wouldn't take too long to find the bits either.

What happens when you order a whole set of plastics for a bike that had a bin & they all turn up in the wrong colour? Oh, it has happend before FYI.

[steve_t]

Of the people who think NZ dealers are significantly overcharging, who owns or has owned their own business?

[bogan]

What happens when you order a whole set of plastics for a bike that had a bin & they all turn up in the wrong colour? Oh, it has happend before FYI.

head off to supercheap for a can of spray paint :lol:

[Katman]

head off to supercheap for a can of spray paint :lol:

And charge it to 'Find-a-Bit'.

[Conquiztador]

Plus cost of holding stock, bank interest charges, insurance etc etc. This guy is living in pixieland.
- No stock to be held. only bring in when customer wants it (read posting)
- Bank interest charges? Pay with credit card, deposit customers money in to offset and there is no interest. In fact, you have just given me an idea... I could invest the customers money and get a little interest on it before I would have to pay the credit card bill...
- Insurance. Tell me what we are insuring against here? I would be getting the bits from a overseas web supplier in same fashion as any T D & H.
- etc.etc. No idea. Probably use some bug spray to kill them.

- Pixie land? New Zealand last I looked.

[bogan]

Back for more...

Here a scenario: We have a faulty bike. We go to the local shop and want the bit. They tell us it is $500. We say: "SHIT! Thats expensive. But I need one, so yeah, I'll take it". We then have to pay the $500 up front so they order it. They contact their NZ distributor/importer who contacts their overseas distributor who gets it from the factory. This takes ages and we get peed off. We were peed off at the high price, but decided to pay as we really need that bit. But the real anger comes in when the bit does not arrive before 2 months later.

So anyway, what I would like to see in a service such as that, would be:

Parts confirmation and information as to whether it a genuine part, send an email back with diagram of the part you find to make sure its the proper one.
Competitive prices.
Good technical knowledge, if you're going to recomend a non genuine part I would like to know its from trusted brand.
Good communication, mainly with respect to estimated arrival times.
Some form of gaurantee, as the deal would go through you I want to know you'll be motivated to follow up on any errors.

[Katman]

Some form of gaurantee, as the deal would go through you I want to know you'll be motivated to follow up on any errors.

Houston, we have a problem.

[steve_t]

- No stock to be held. only bring in when customer wants it (read posting)
- Bank interest charges? Pay with credit card, deposit customers money in to offset and there is no interest. In fact, you have just given me an idea... I could invest the customers money and get a little interest on it before I would have to pay the credit card bill...
- Insurance. Tell me what we are insuring against here? I would be getting the bits from a overseas web supplier in same fashion as any T D & H.
- etc.etc. No idea. Probably use some bug spray to kill them.

- Pixie land? New Zealand last I looked.

So why does T D & H buy from you instead of directly from the overseas web supplier and cut you out as a middleman? I'm assuming you'll be adding a markup to pay for your time right?

[jonbuoy]

So anyway, what I would like to see in a service such as that, would be:

Parts confirmation and information as to whether it a genuine part, send an email back with diagram of the part you find to make sure its the proper one.
Competitive prices.
Good technical knowledge, if you're going to recomend a non genuine part I would like to know its from trusted brand.
Good communication, mainly with respect to estimated arrival times.
Some form of gaurantee, as the deal would go through you I want to know you'll be motivated to follow up on any errors.

And all this for a 20% markup on a $30 flasher relay as anything else would be ripping off joe public? If you think this would work gather up a syndicate and make it happen.

[dipshit]

And charge it to 'Find-a-Bit'.

So Katman, will you be getting that 4-wheeler part for your customer through Suzuki NZ for $1400 or from the US for $600..??

Or is there some monopoly protection rules bullshit from the old boys network that prohibit you from doing so..???

[Conquiztador]

Does 'Find-a-Bit' handle the warranty claims?

Whose headache is it if the wrong part is sent?

Which part will 'Find-a-Bit' source? The cheapest part, or a good quality part? (Or just whichever part gives them the best margin?)

- Warranty: Whatever warranty the bits are provided with from overseas would be in place.
- Wrong Part: If the order was wrong, then F-A-B would clearly be responsible. If the client had demanded a left but then realised that it was a right one he would be responsible for the costs to swap it. If the overseas supplier would have sent a left when we ordered a right then they would be responsible.
- Which part? Customer request would determine: "I want the cheapest you can find" or "I want a genuine NOS still wrapped in olfashion oil soaked paper!"

[Conquiztador]

So why does T D & H buy from you instead of directly from the overseas web supplier and cut you out as a middleman? I'm assuming you'll be adding a markup to pay for your time right?

Saves him hassle. He does not have the time or the knowledge. He does not want to give his credit card details to an overseas company. He might not have a credit card. He might only deal in cash (and he can deposit this in a NZ bank account but not overseas). Old fashioned trust. Reputation of doing a fast search and coming up with the bit, friendly service, the old "buy through us and for every $100 you spend with us we give you a F-A-B bonus dollar that you can use at cristmas", word of mouth,

[scott411]

- Warranty: Whatever warranty the bits are provided with from overseas would be in place.
- Wrong Part: If the order was wrong, then F-A-B would clearly be responsible. If the client had demanded a left but then realised that it was a right one he would be responsible for the costs to swap it. If the overseas supplier would have sent a left when we ordered a right then they would be responsible.
- Which part? Customer request would determine: "I want the cheapest you can find" or "I want a genuine NOS still wrapped in olfashion oil soaked paper!"

man that sounds so simple, i wonder why this has not been done before, but who pays the freight back to the overseas supplier?, and what happens when the guy claims you have made the mistake, even tho you haven't, goes on kiwibiker and starts a thread on how shit your service is and the wrath that follows? or the time when you genuinly just fuck up, or the guy in where ever you get it from does and you have the wrong part,

but just to get this right,

so you are going to set up a website to attract people, advertise, pay someone to look for parts, supply diagrams off other websites, (and take the time to remove there watermarks sot he person does not go direct and cut you out) email everyone, get it in, pay for the other costs of warehousing etc, all for 30% markup,

if that is the game plan, good luck,

[bogan]

And all this for a 20% markup on a $30 flasher relay as anything else would be ripping off joe public? If you think this would work gather up a syndicate and make it happen.

Thats what I would like to see, what the thread was originally about.

And another thing I feel I should say, before this thread I would feel somewhat guilty about pricing up a part locally then buying overseas if it was cheaper, now, not at all. Some people here may want to think about that.

[steve_t]

Saves him hassle. He does not have the time or the knowledge. He does not want to give his credit card details to an overseas company. He might not have a credit card. He might only deal in cash (and he can deposit this in a NZ bank account but not overseas). Old fashioned trust. Reputation of doing a fast search and coming up with the bit, friendly service, the old "buy through us and for every $100 you spend with us we give you a F-A-B bonus dollar that you can use at cristmas", word of mouth,

So how much are you going to charge to be a personal shopper for me? Will it be a markup per item, or a flat fee per transaction?

[Conquiztador]

man that sounds so simple, i wonder why this has not been done before, but who pays the freight back to the overseas supplier?, and what happens when the guy claims you have made the mistake, even tho you haven't, goes on kiwibiker and starts a thread on how shit your service is and the wrath that follows? or the time when you genuinly just fuck up, or the guy in where ever you get it from does and you have the wrong part,

but just to get this right,

so you are going to set up a website to attract people, advertise, pay someone to look for parts, supply diagrams off other websites, (and take the time to remove there watermarks sot he person does not go direct and cut you out) email everyone, get it in, pay for the other costs of warehousing etc, all for 30% markup,

if that is the game plan, good luck,

I have a fulltime job, so no, I am not planning to do this. But a intelligent chap that has some bike knowledge, that has time on his hands as a result of a injury, whatever, could contemplate this.

And yes, there will always be fuckups from one side or another. But the main thing is to sort them ASAP and be man enough to take the blame instead of trying to start a fight. Customer service is not that tricky. Even in this tread there has been many who have clearly stated that they realise that all are humen. Just don't try to feed them BS.

[scott411]

this strted off not a bad thread, you could learn a bit, but like most of these threads it turned into a piss take and points scoring session, but with out that it would not really be a kb classic,

[SS90]

- Warranty: Whatever warranty the bits are provided with from overseas would be in place.
- Wrong Part: If the order was wrong, then F-A-B would clearly be responsible. If the client had demanded a left but then realised that it was a right one he would be responsible for the costs to swap it. If the overseas supplier would have sent a left when we ordered a right then they would be responsible.
- Which part? Customer request would determine: "I want the cheapest you can find" or "I want a genuine NOS still wrapped in olfashion oil soaked paper!"

Erm, sorry to burst ya bubble here mate, but the concept of a warranty in this scenario is a laugh.

Faulty part, really........ was the part fitted by an authorised dealer or your mate etc...... if you think it will work, then go ahead and do it yourself.

[T.W.R]

man that sounds so simple, i wonder why this has not been done before, but who pays the freight back to the overseas supplier?, and what happens when the guy claims you have made the mistake, even tho you haven't, goes on kiwibiker and starts a thread on how shit your service is and the wrath that follows? or the time when you genuinly just fuck up, or the guy in where ever you get it from does and you have the wrong part,

but just to get this right,

so you are going to set up a website to attract people, advertise, pay someone to look for parts, supply diagrams off other websites, (and take the time to remove there watermarks sot he person does not go direct and cut you out) email everyone, get it in, pay for the other costs of warehousing etc, all for 30% markup,

if that is the game plan, good luck,

Pretty hard to see the forest when they're looking at a single tree :yes:

Though in essence the thought and idea are well placed as a lot of bikeshops are far less than accomodating when dealing with customers and it's easy to pull a veil over the realities a dealership actually has to deal with when servicing a customers request.....some try their best for the customer and some don't it's as simple as that

[Conquiztador]

So how much are you going to charge to be a personal shopper for me? Will it be a markup per item, or a flat fee per transaction?

No idea. It is more the concept I am interested in. Could it work? Personally I think it could. Se, I would happily contact F-A-B to save me the hassle. I would know they need to charge a fee. But I would sleep easily knowing that I am paying them for doing a top job and looking after me. Not charging me $400 for a timing pickup sensor that is $80 on the net...

The closest I have come to this when shopping on line in NZ is Econohonda. If they do not have what I need they find it. And I hear back from them inside 24 hours! But I dont have many Hondas...

[Katman]

So Katman, will you be getting that 4-wheeler part for your customer through Suzuki NZ for $1400 or from the US for $600..??

Or is there some monopoly protection rules bullshit from the old boys network that prohibit you from doing so..???

Most definately getting it from the US (thanks again for the lead).

Believe me, there's no love lost between me and Suzuki NZ.

[Conquiztador]

Erm, sorry to burst ya bubble here mate, but the concept of a warranty in this scenario is a laugh.

Faulty part, really........ was the part fitted by an authorised dealer or your mate etc...... if you think it will work, then go ahead and do it yourself.


You are forgetting that this only replaces your own work over the web. You are paying some $$'s for someone else to find your bit (Find-A-Bit). Once you have that bit it's yours. You come back with it to F-A-B they will only do what you would have had to do if they were not there if there is a problem with it. At the same time F-A-B would soon learn who is good to deal with re bits. And who you only deal once with. That is also what you would be paying for.

[Katman]

but who pays the freight back to the overseas supplier?,

And what happens when the US supplier (who knows you're hardly going to travel half-way round the world to confront him) says "Nope, that's not a valid warranty claim".

[Robert Taylor]

And what happens when the US supplier (who knows you're hardly going to travel half-way round the world to confront him) says "Nope, that's not a valid warranty claim".

Now Im well and truly finding this whole thread a comedy. The naivety and lack of understanding of simple economics is breathtaking. Also the reality that often it takes days to get replies from overseas manufacturers and wholesalers further down the food chain. Its quite different than dealing with retail internet resellers.
Thats not ''getting lost in the forest'', thats exactly what Im dealing with everyday.

Heres a reality of my situation, I started work at a little before 8 am this morning and have continuously worked through the day on a mountain of suspension jobs. This work is not always straightforward and a lot of creativity is often required. My sidekick needs time for a doctors visit in the morning so that is going to put us further behind. 10 minutes for lunch today ( pretty normal ) Travelled home at 6pm and continued with a mountain of paperwork, sorting out parts required, shock orders and answering a mountain of e-mail enquiries. Dinner 20 minutes and precious little social life with my wife and daughter.
Interspersed with this a few postings on ''Kiwi Bleater'' ( sorry it fits in this instance given the evidence of many posts on this thread ) and answering pm enquiries. another 4 hours work I reckon on but it will get passed over until tommorrow night. I wont get thanked for ''ignoring e-mails'' by some who seemingly their life depends on it. But Im doing my bloody best to try and keep on top of things.
So why dont I have a staff member to handle all of this enquiry etc? Quite simple really 1 ) I cant find anyone with enough knowledge or experience and 2) Even if I could it would wipe out my profit for the year
This is a typical scenario for NZ business, lucky Im not afraid of hard work and dont think that the world owes me a living.

[Brian d marge]

Robert
I sort of know what you are up to

I come into contact on a regular basis with people who run similar companies ( nitron Ebc etc )

one thing I can say is time management

me , I bought a netbook and an Iphone (( changing to a nexus one soon ) i know this sounds odd but I can do anything from update my website on the iphone , to think about a design using the netbook ( drawing is still done on a drawing board , I find it relaxing ! beats tv )

long and short of this is

I can spend a lot of time doing two things at once , for me kids playing in park me replying to customers ( yes sometimes stuck in office)

As to getting someone with experience again there maybe a someone with a lot of experience that doesn't want to work full time and would take a basic wage IF they could benefit from your set up

more than one way to skin a cat

When it comes to long hours .....I live in the country where long hours rule ( but I know how they cope !!!~ and a lot of the time dont )

Ive seen a lot of micro managers burn out ,,,, me I am happy as , new house done , smaller workshop plans finalized ( small is the word here !)

all good

Stephen

[Robert Taylor]

Robert
I sort of know what you are up to

I come into contact on a regular basis with people who run similar companies ( nitron Ebc etc )

one thing I can say is time management

me , I bought a netbook and an Iphone (( changing to a nexus one soon ) i know this sounds odd but I can do anything from update my website on the iphone , to think about a design using the netbook ( drawing is still done on a drawing board , I find it relaxing ! beats tv )

long and short of this is

I can spend a lot of time doing two things at once , for me kids playing in park me replying to customers ( yes sometimes stuck in office)

As to getting someone with experience again there maybe a someone with a lot of experience that doesn't want to work full time and would take a basic wage IF they could benefit from your set up

more than one way to skin a cat

When it comes to long hours .....I live in the country where long hours rule ( but I know how they cope !!!~ and a lot of the time dont )

Ive seen a lot of micro managers burn out ,,,, me I am happy as , new house done , smaller workshop plans finalized ( small is the word here !)

all good

Stephen

The good old trusty blackberry handles a lot of that, but itsa blessing and a curse all rolled into one

[Brian d marge]

if u set it to vibrate you cant hear it when you sleep !!!

Stephen

[PeeJay]

All the NAysayers
My post ending with old codgers in the forest started out as sarcasm, but you know what there is a fair amount of truth in it.

You all spent too much time coming up with reasons NOT to do something.

Its always too something

what if what if what if
its a wonder half of you even get out of bed in the morning

I am 65 yrs old and been around the block more than once
Made a lot of money and lost a lot of money
I returned to NZ 2005 after most of the preceding 30 yrs as an OE
A major change I noticed was instead of a Kiwi CAN DO attitude its more of a Kiwi CANT DO
Govt and councils stick their nose in everything and wont go away until you give them money

And we take it.

Dont worry Aussie and the US arent much better.
The Europeans and South Americans still have balls, even the Poms when they get pissed off they let the govt know.
Over here we obey the law, keep our heads down and our mouths shut.

This thread is a good example as to why we are behind the 8 ball compared to a lot of others.
Cant even get a web business passed the think about it stage without it getting torn to shreds because its "different" and it "doesnt work like that"
Who gives a shit if it doesnt work like that, make it work like that

[sidecar bob]

Well i guess nine years under a Labour Govt has thrashed the will to live out of every one of us. It'll do that.
Were not saying it wont work, but stop trying to convince existing businesses to do it & just shut up & get on with it usung your own money if its such a fantastic idea.
All the NAysayers
My post ending with old codgers in the forest started out as sarcasm, but you know what there is a fair amount of truth in it.

You all spent too much time coming up with reasons NOT to do something.

Its always too something

what if what if what if
its a wonder half of you even get out of bed in the morning

I am 65 yrs old and been around the block more than once
Made a lot of money and lost a lot of money
I returned to NZ 2005 after most of the preceding 30 yrs as an OE
A major change I noticed was instead of a Kiwi CAN DO attitude its more of a Kiwi CANT DO
Govt and councils stick their nose in everything and wont go away until you give them money

And we take it.

Dont worry Aussie and the US arent much better.
The Europeans and South Americans still have balls, even the Poms when they get pissed off they let the govt know.
Over here we obey the law, keep our heads down and our mouths shut.

This thread is a good example as to why we are behind the 8 ball compared to a lot of others.
Cant even get a web business passed the think about it stage without it getting torn to shreds because its "different" and it "doesnt work like that"
Who gives a shit if it doesnt work like that, make it work like that

[T.W.R]

Were not saying it wont work, but stop trying to convince existing businesses to do it & just shut up & get on with it usung your own money if its such a fantastic idea.

:blink: who said for existing businesses to do it? the thread started with an individuals idea of what could possibly be done yet the likes of yourself, bumptious & the white tamaki came in with guns blazing to shoot it down
Most of the existing businesses are too set in their ways to change, a lot have milked the system for so long they think they're sucessful but they've only got to that point by taking the creame off the top to line their own pockets

[Conquiztador]

All the NAysayers
My post ending with old codgers in the forest started out as sarcasm, but you know what there is a fair amount of truth in it.

You all spent too much time coming up with reasons NOT to do something.

Its always too something

what if what if what if
its a wonder half of you even get out of bed in the morning

I am 65 yrs old and been around the block more than once
Made a lot of money and lost a lot of money...

...Cant even get a web business passed the think about it stage without it getting torn to shreds because its "different" and it "doesnt work like that"
Who gives a shit if it doesnt work like that, make it work like that

"You must spread spread some reputation around before..."

I'm 55. also been around a few blocks. I run a organisation with 70 staff. In my 3 years in charge we have doubled in size and doubled the turnover. The growth is still going on. Each of the years I have given every staffmembers a payrise. (Yep, through "the resession...")Currently I am in the process of purcasing a new facility to run all from. $1.5mill. We have done some mistakes. But also some awsome stuff. "It can't be done" is something that used to be a saying. Now it is banned.

Not many things get my bloodpressure to rise. But the two that have that effect on me are "giving up" and "can't do".

This thread was NEVER about what can't be done. It was about what CAN be done. About imagination and finding a way. Somehow the "nay" sayers thought it was about them. But I suppose there is truth in the old saying: "If you throw a stick in to a pack of dogs, the one who get's hit whill whinge".

[Scorp]

Surely you're not suggesting that someone selling one product is going to satisfy New Zealands motorcyclists.
Not for a moment.


All that's going to do is make that one person a profit while not gaining anything for motorcyclists - except one product that they can get cheaper than in a bike shop.
Precisely. No more no less.

I'm not of the opinion that the motorcycle retail industry in NZ can be changed by customers who want to stack the deck solely in their favour (which seems to be the main thrust of this thread). But I do think it's possible for someone like Bogan to build a small turnover business based on importing and selling on a small number of in-demand products where there's margin available.

[Robert Taylor]

"You must spread spread some reputation around before..."

I'm 55. also been around a few blocks. I run a organisation with 70 staff. In my 3 years in charge we have doubled in size and doubled the turnover. The growth is still going on. Each of the years I have given every staffmembers a payrise. (Yep, through "the resession...")Currently I am in the process of purcasing a new facility to run all from. $1.5mill. We have done some mistakes. But also some awsome stuff. "It can't be done" is something that used to be a saying. Now it is banned.

Not many things get my bloodpressure to rise. But the two that have that effect on me are "giving up" and "can't do".

This thread was NEVER about what can't be done. It was about what CAN be done. About imagination and finding a way. Somehow the "nay" sayers thought it was about them. But I suppose there is truth in the old saying: "If you throw a stick in to a pack of dogs, the one who get's hit whill whinge".

Its not about cant do its about having your eyes wide open. Its also about having business sense and being VERY aware of what overheads etc are a given. Its allso being very aware of the pysche of a NZ motorycle customer and of that I am personally and unashamedly very aware.

You havent said what organisation you run whereas some of us who post on here everyone knows what we do. Thats one of the real perverse things about forums, people post away, snipe at this and that but also arent totally transparent about who they are and what they are about. Not saying its neccessarily so in your case but this is often used for deliberate effect so that someone can perversely be shot down in flames when they challenge.

[Robert Taylor]

Not for a moment.


Precisely. No more no less.

I'm not of the opinion that the motorcycle retail industry in NZ can be changed by customers who want to stack the deck solely in their favour (which seems to be the main thrust of this thread). But I do think it's possible for someone like Bogan to build a small turnover business based on importing and selling on a small number of in-demand products where there's margin available.

You mean parallell importing? The very same activity that parasitically feeds off the advertising revenue etc expended by the manufacturers appointed distributors? Dont get me started on these leaches.

[bogan]

Its not about cant do its about having your eyes wide open. Its also about having business sense and being VERY aware of what overheads etc are a given. Its allso being very aware of the pysche of a NZ motorycle customer and of that I am personally and unashamedly very aware.

You havent said what organisation you run whereas some of us who post on here everyone knows what we do. Thats one of the real perverse things about forums, people post away, snipe at this and that but also arent totally transparent about who they are and what they are about. Not saying its neccessarily so in your case but this is often used for deliberate effect so that someone can perversely be shot down in flames when they challenge.

Isn't that what you're doing anyway, making snipey comments about how things can't be done? A common occurance in brainstorming sessions is that everything gets written down, regardless of its feasibility, but you had to come in here and impose your views. Don't you have work to do? cos you ain't doing anything constructive here, quite the oppposite imo.


You mean parallell importing? The very same activity that parasitically feeds off the advertising revenue etc expended by the manufacturers appointed distributors? Dont get me started on these leaches.

bahahaha, theres no advertising on parts, tell you what, if I see an add for fork seals for a 88 Bros, I'll eat my fucking helmet. If you are going to try and insult people, at least make it vaguely applicable.

[Robert Taylor]

Isn't that what you're doing anyway, making snipey comments about how things can't be done? A common occurance in brainstorming sessions is that everything gets written down, regardless of its feasibility, but you had to come in here and impose your views. Don't you have work to do? cos you ain't doing anything constructive here, quite the oppposite imo.



bahahaha, theres no advertising on parts, tell you what, if I see an add for fork seals for a 88 Bros, I'll eat my fucking helmet. If you are going to try and insult people, at least make it vaguely applicable.

I was up in the middle of the night doing paperwork while you were sleeping or kicking back, so I think I can justify ten minutes on here????

Ive got just as much right to express my views on here as anyone else.

BTW Id personally be using genuine Honda Bros seals as most of the aftermarket fork seals available ( that are otherwise cheap ) are quite terrible in terms of friction. I might happen to know a thing or two about that given the ''irrelevance'' of my long industry experience.

So go for it, I hope you will be purchasing tens of thousands of dollars of forward foreign exchange at the best exchange rates so that you can pass on your saving to your tens of thousands of customers.

Youve got a LOT to learn.

[Katman]

It's disappointing that so many peoples prejudices cloud their ability to recognise that no-one is "tearing to shreds" any idea.

All that's happening here is that perfectly valid questions are being asked about the idea - questions that, if the proponents of the idea can't come up with equally valid answers, are going to see them sorely disappointed and out of pocket if they enter into it half-cocked.

[Scorp]

For anyone setting up a new business, one of the first things you should do is examine in detail the way your chosen market operates - both to learn the way it works, and to find gaps and inefficiencies you can exploit.

It's all well and good slating the industry guys on here for their negativity, but anyone who genuinely aspires to running a bike gear/parts business should probably be spending time with them, politely asking questions, rather than knocking them.

And simply asking the market what it wants is not going to give you much in the way of useful information, because the answer will always be: more for less. And you can't live off that.

This quote below by T.W.R reveals a lot about some people's attitude to business:


Most of the existing businesses are too set in their ways to change, a lot have milked the system for so long they think they're sucessful but they've only got to that point by taking the creame off the top to line their own pockets.
Thing is, that's a bit like saying: "most successful businesses are only successful because they have managed to survive for many years while turning a profit."

Which is kind of the point of going into business in the first place. Unless of course you want to set up a registered charity for the benefit of NZ motorcycle owners.

[T.W.R]

For anyone setting up a new business, one of the first things you should do is examine in detail the way your chosen market operates - both to learn the way it works, and to find gaps and inefficiencies you can exploit.

It's all well and good slating the industry guys on here for their negativity, but anyone who genuinely aspires to running a bike gear/parts business should probably be spending time with them, politely asking questions, rather than knocking them.

And simply asking the market what it wants is not going to give you much in the way of useful information, because the answer will always be: more for less. And you can't live off that.

This quote below by T.W.R reveals a lot about some people's attitude to business:


Thing is, that's a bit like saying: "most successful businesses are only successful because they have managed to survive for many years while turning a profit."

Which is kind of the point of going into business in the first place. Unless of course you want to set up a registered charity for the benefit of NZ motorcycle owners.

Well Scorp I only worked in the top south island kawasaki business for a few years and spent time in one of the more sucessful Suzuki dealerships too so my attitude comes from seeing the exact goings on that happen away from the public eye :niceone:

And to add I've got a business management diploma as well

[scott411]

"You must spread spread some reputation around before..."

I'm 55. also been around a few blocks. I run a organisation with 70 staff. In my 3 years in charge we have doubled in size and doubled the turnover. The growth is still going on. Each of the years I have given every staffmembers a payrise. (Yep, through "the resession...")Currently I am in the process of purcasing a new facility to run all from. $1.5mill. We have done some mistakes. But also some awsome stuff. "It can't be done" is something that used to be a saying. Now it is banned.

Not many things get my bloodpressure to rise. But the two that have that effect on me are "giving up" and "can't do".

This thread was NEVER about what can't be done. It was about what CAN be done. About imagination and finding a way. Somehow the "nay" sayers thought it was about them. But I suppose there is truth in the old saying: "If you throw a stick in to a pack of dogs, the one who get's hit whill whinge".


sweet im stoked for you, its good to hear good story's like that, , im 32, have been in a motorcycle shop for 8 years and another 8 years before that working for others, we have doubled the turnover, store size and staff numbers in that time, and are still doing good even though the industry bike sales are down over 50%, i did it by listening to some of the old codgers and taking there advise, and trying some of my ideas, as i said in an earlier post there was some interesting information early on this tread but both sides started snipping at each other and it turned to shit,

i had thought about doing something similar about doing what you have said above, and i do use overseas sources on some parts when i can not get them here, or i think they are stupid prices, but as i said before, to provide the service you talk about here, on smaller parts you will have to have more than a 30% markup to make it viable, due to the fact it will be labour intensive to find the parts, on bigger items you would reduce that margin, but on $50-100 parts that take 30 minutes to an hour of your time to do all the finding, emailing, processing of payments etc, will cost you more than the $20-50 you will make on the sale of parts, esp when you consider the warranty issues, and after sales service that you will need,

as Robert said above, its hard to sit here and read your friends and people you have worked with for decades being attacked by people that do not provide the same level of imformation about themselves, that they have on the people they are attacking,

[Scorp]

Not many things get my bloodpressure to rise. But the two that have that effect on me are "giving up" and "can't do".


All the NAysayers. You all spent too much time coming up with reasons NOT to do something... its a wonder half of you even get out of bed in the morning... This thread is a good example as to why we are behind the 8 ball compared to a lot of others. Cant even get a web business passed the think about it stage without it getting torn to shreds because its "different" and it "doesnt work like that". Who gives a shit if it doesnt work like that, make it work like that

Just a quick point to everyone slating the "Naysayers". It's worth bearing in mind that RT and Katman and the other bike industry guys on here who have shot down your ideas, that they are probably not "Can't do" people." They seem to be get up and go, can do, will do types who have been successfully running entrepreneurial businesses of their own for some years.

Personally, having come across RT on another thread, I can confidently state that I detest his politics. But if I was planning on going into the bike trade in the near future, he's probably one of the first people I'd want to talk to.

[bogan]

All that's happening here is that perfectly valid questions are being asked about the idea - questions that, if the proponents of the idea can't come up with equally valid answers, are going to see them sorely disappointed and out of pocket if they enter into it half-cocked.

I don't consider "you're naive and I know wayyy more" to be a perfectly valid question, do you?


as Robert said above, its hard to sit here and read your friends and people you have worked with for decades being attacked by people that do not provide the same level of imformation about themselves, that they have on the people they are attacking,

I agree, that would be hard, but nobody is attacking anyone, floating ideas is not an attack on the industry. I mean, unless those ideas are likely to work it's not going to change anything is it? Also the nay-sayers were asked to stay out of it for now (numerous times) so I'm not sure what their motivation is for continuing to say nay?

[Katman]

I don't consider "you're naive and I know wayyy more" to be a perfectly valid question, do you?


For a start "you're naive and I know wayyy more" isn't a question.

But if in fact it's true, then it's a perfectly valid statement.

[bogan]

For a start "you're naive and I know wayyy more" isn't a question.

But if in fact it's true, then it's a perfectly valid statement.

indeed, but even if right it contributes nothing to a discussion.

For those who are so sure they are right, if you can't justify your position to others, should you be so sure?

[Scorp]

Well Scorp I only worked in the top south island kawasaki business for a few years and spent time in one of the more sucessful Suzuki dealerships too so my attitude comes from seeing the exact goings on that happen away from the public eye :niceone:

And to add I've got a business management diploma as well
Cool. I've worked in a wide variety of businesses and have a business degree and a diploma in direct marketing. And in that time I've learned that if you own your own business, and it doesn't make enough profit for you to line your pockets, that a). you're wasting your time, and b). you'll quickly go out of business. I'm surprised this hasn't occurred to you too. I agree, that becoming too set in your ways can be bad for business, but not as bad as ignoring the imperative of turning a profit. Profit is king.

[Katman]

indeed, but even if right it contributes nothing to a discussion.



If it makes someone sit back and think "Shit, maybe I need to re-think my ideas and figures" and saves that person from making fundamental (and potentially disastrous) mistakes, then I think it's highly constructive.

[bogan]

If it makes someone sit back and think "Shit, maybe I need to re-think my ideas and figures" and saves that person from making fundamental (and potentially disastrous) mistakes, then I think it's highly constructive.

ok, I can agree with that, for the first time it is said, anthing else is just a waste. And it's a lot more helpful to say, your figures are wrong there cos blah blah blah etc

[Katman]

And it's a lot more helpful to say, your figures are wrong there cos blah blah blah etc

Post #259 was placed there to give you something to think about.

But that's not what you want, is it?

You want someone to hand you all the answers on a platter.

If only running your own business was that simple.

[R-Soul]

I think what bogan is trying to say, and what conquiztador started this thread for, was to brainstorm for ideas for the perfect bike shop - from the customers point of view.

Now I appreciate that customers replying to this thread and giving their iodeas will not always be aware of teh ins and outs and limitations of the industry. and I appreciate thatas experienced industry people, you would like to fill in this knowledge for them.

But in doing so, you are doing yourself a disservice. The purpose of a brainstorm is to throw the largest, wildest ideas out there, as improbable and stupid as they may seem, and get the most points of view that you can. Introducing reality into this scenario makes the environment hostile, and prevents ideas being thrown out.

Experience and training is not a pre-requesite for creativity. and creativity is all that we were loking for in this thread.

Yes, most of teh ideas could be rubbish, but maybe, just maybe, they could spark a train of thought that lends itself to being implemented in a realistic way, and which could be useful to you industry guys. So bite your lips for a second and just listen. Let the imaginations run wild. So what if most of them are deluded. Let them be. And then ponder over the results, and take what you think is useful from it. This thread is, after all, a tool for you guys to be able to gauge opinion and get ideas form. Dont limit it.


And by the same measures to the guys giving ideas: Give the ideas as a stated layout of your biking nirvana. Not as an attack on the current industry. The current industry wants to do everything it can that is economically feasible to make teh experience better for you in order to sell more to you. That is what their job is. If there are better ways, they have either tried nfeasible ways of implementing it before, or have not thought of it- hence this is why the thread is here.

I have mentioned in a past thread that bike shops should review what it is they are selling. I belive that it is a passion, a lifestyle and a sense of brotherhood. Not spares. Spares and parts and accessories I can get from trademe or the Net. I want to go to a shop where I feel like I am part of a passionate lifestyle and where I "belong", and can immerse myself in "bike accessory porn'.

I encourage shops to look at points of differentiation with the Net. Net beats them on price, no doubt. But shops offer benefits in that
- they offer excitement
- they offer sizing
- they offer advice
- they offer the personal relationshiop (if the sales person BOTHERS to try and establish one - not difficult since you both have a common passion)
- they have the abilty to upsell - i.e.introduce the possibility of selling related goods as well) if the salespersons are trained correctly (a critical factor in shops competing with the Net - God knows how Dick Smiths survives since their sales people are useless- probably because they do offer advice for technically challenged people once you have actually got their attention).
-local location- convenience for pick up - immediate availability

I have another idea for a business model that has probably already been done, but not to this extent: To limit the parts and gear that is stocked to ONLY that stuff that is good quality and that sells REALLY fast. Low turnover time. Because less gear is kept in stock, the cost of stockholding is reduced, and the savings can be passed onto customers. Customers will soon learn that Shop X offers the best prices on good quality gear. Other (slow selling) accessories can be stocked by other specialist shops, but for the bread and butter high turnover gear, go there.

To an extent this is competing with the Net on price (and will probably lose), but still offers the differentiators of sizing and technical advice. Of course cusptomers can get the advice, and then go order on the net anyway..

another idea: Run a Net business as well - reduce prices for those ordering online to compete with other online businesses, but offer pick up service only - this reduces perceived prices further, and has the effect of allowing good sales persons to upsell when the customer comes in to pickup goods.

Use it, dont use it....

[Tony.OK]

Let the imaginations run wild. So what if most of them are deluded. Let them be..

Ok............my perfect shop would be one that sponsors me to race and they pay for everything:innocent:

Too much imagination?.............how about they sell at cost or slightly below......:p

Thats my perfect shop hahaa!!

[bogan]

.....

Yup that sums up what I was trying to get across


Post #259 was placed there to give you something to think about.

But that's not what you want, is it?

You want someone to hand you all the answers on a platter.

If only running your own business was that simple.

It was read, thought about, and replied to, the idea I was talking about does not fit your business model, that makes it different, and not necessarily wrong. Scorp compared the idea to that of Fishpond, which sounds like its doing well, the products and customers are bikers, but the model is the same as for books. You state that in order to maintain a business the overheads would outweigh the profits, I agree in a bike shop they would, but an internet business I think would be fine, your experience in the bike shop perhaps puts you at a disadvantage when evaluating a different kind of business model.

[Katman]

I'll be the first to admit that my opening post in this thread would be lucky to score a 1 out of 10 for constructiveness (and even then, only because there were no spelling mistakes).

But this thread has moved on from offering ideas on how bike shops can offer a better level of service to attacking them on the price of their parts, clothing and accessories.

Let me say again, the pricing of the items that a bike shop sells is the one area that they don't deserve to be condemned for. The likes of Suzuki NZ, Triumph NZ, Bluewing Honda etc are the ones who should be coming under close scrutiny in that respect.

[avgas]

For anyone setting up a new business, one of the first things you should do is examine in detail the way your chosen market operates - both to learn the way it works, and to find gaps and inefficiencies you can exploit.
I used to follow this. But not only is this wrong - its is detrimental to business.
It is not the first thing. It has to happen CONSISTANTLY through operations.
Simply copying what the market competitors will get you no where but market value. It is not a growth strategy - and when the market changes it becomes a decay strategy. PLC in motorcycles is long. But the market has shifted.
This is not the dark ages where you had to go to the 1 motorbike shop in town and buy at what price they dictated.
The customers have spoken, and while most of their requests are unrealistic - a good 2% are viable. The players that integrate that 2% into their systems will reap the market shift.
No one is asking the world of motorcycles to revolve around the consumer - just to change a small percentage of their model to suit their needs.

[sidecar bob]

Post #259 was placed there to give you something to think about.

But that's not what you want, is it?

You want someone to hand you all the answers on a platter.

If only running your own business was that simple.
They dont want some constructive advice to save them from their own stupidity, they want to tell us what a bunch of stupid blind old fogies we are. Thats why several posts ago, I started to actively encourage these experts to put their money where their mouths are & get on with it.
I think FAB is a great idea & the brainchildren of it should crack on ASAP with getting it off the ground, I mean, look at Sam Morgan, the brains behind Trademe. Youse fullas could be the next him.

[bogan]

I'll be the first to admit that my opening post in this thread would be lucky to score a 1 out of 10 for constructiveness (and even then, only because there were no spelling mistakes).

But this thread has moved on from offering ideas on how bike shops can offer a better level of service to attacking them on the price of their parts, clothing and accessories.

Let me say again, the pricing of the items that a bike shop sells is the one area that they don't deserve to be condemned for. The likes of Suzuki NZ, Triumph NZ, Bluewing Honda etc are the ones who should be coming under close scrutiny in that respect.

I'm sorry if any of my posts seemed to condemn the dealers for their prices, I only recall saying I can get them cheaper internationally so will do so, never stating it was the dealers fault. If there are unreasonable markups in the above company's what can be done about it? I assume all bike shops in NZ deal with a limited number of wholesalers (also in NZ), which sounds like monopoly, will customers buying parts from overseas instead of locally alert these wholesalers to their folly and improve the market for all?

[Smifffy]

A few random thoughts, since I haven't been able to keep up with the thread as it evolved:

1. It seems this thread started out as a "I dream of the perfect motorcycle shop, and it looks like this"
2. Some chose to crush the dream, and point out that people were dreamers
3. The dreamers were keen to take the dream from dream to plan/goals, but got a little lost/tied up with the harsh realities of doing business in the socialist republic of unzud
4. Somehow it appears that the thread has become the frontline in the battle between those who bemoan the industry, and those who bemoan the fact that people ordering from offshore are killing the industry
5. The industry does not have to change, nor do the consumers. Each can continue to do their own thing, and evolution will decide the final outcome, maybe there will be no winners.

I guess it will be interesting to see in the future how many posts that celebrate the receipt and fitment of exhausts, shocks, custom bits, engine parts from offshore are also replied to by industry types pointing out that this is killing the local industry. Of course if you import your own parts and it all goes horribly wrong then neener neener! :)

I've been looking at getting some blingy bits, with 3 items in particular in mind. One of those items is available in NZ, and through a bricks & Mortar motorcycle shop's tardme store at a very competitive rate vs what I can get it for from overseas. The other 2 items I haven't been able to source locally yet. Still not sure if I want the hassle of getting them shipped.

[R-Soul]

They dont want some constructive advice to save them from their own stupidity, they want to tell us what a bunch of stupid blind old fogies we are. Thats why several posts ago, I started to actively encourage these experts to put their money where their mouths are & get on with it.
I think FAB is a great idea & the brainchildren of it should crack on ASAP with getting it off the ground, I mean, look at Sam Morgan, the brains behind Trademe. Youse fullas could be the next him.

FAB? What is FAB?

[onearmedbandit]

FAB? What is FAB?

Find-A-Bit. A made up company used as an example by a previous poster in the thread.

[Scorp]

FAB? What is FAB?
My vote is for "Fondle a Babe" :woohoo:

... but unfortunately I think it's Conquistador's "Find a Bit" idea.

[steve_t]

FAB? What is FAB?

Haven't you seen Thunderbirds? Or am I showing my age again :laugh:

[Scorp]

Haven't you seen Thunderbirds? Or am I showing my age again :laugh:
I remember it well. But I never did know what FAB Virgil actually stood for!

[T.W.R]

Cool. I've worked in a wide variety of businesses and have a business degree and a diploma in direct marketing. And in that time I've learned that if you own your own business, and it doesn't make enough profit for you to line your pockets, that a). you're wasting your time, and b). you'll quickly go out of business. I'm surprised this hasn't occurred to you too. I agree, that becoming too set in your ways can be bad for business, but not as bad as ignoring the imperative of turning a profit. Profit is king.

you should go to the top of the class for that :rolleyes: you can't have read some of my earlier posts in the thread.
profit isn't really the king of having a successful business in the long term because if you screw to many in the chase for the almighty dollar it'll come back to bite you on the arse.....perfect example is Ray Kroc.....have a wee google and rethink your strategy

[PrincessBandit]

I remember it well. But I never did know what FAB Virgil actually stood for!

Funderbirds are Bo Virgil.
For what it's worth, I don't think many businesses would stay afloat if they were run completely from a customers perspective.

[Scorp]

you should go to the top of the class for that :rolleyes:
Funny how irony is a one way street.


profit isn't really the king of having a successful business in the long term because if you screw to many in the chase for the almighty dollar it'll come back to bite you on the arse.....perfect example is Ray Kroc.....have a wee google and rethink your strategy
No profit IS king if you want long term success. Because if you're not making a profit, you're going out of business. And then there is no long term.

P.S. I said 'profit' is king. I didn't say screw your customers to the wall. Big difference.

[onearmedbandit]

Profit is necessary, why without it how can you provide ongoing support in terms of service or supply of goods. Any decent customer will realise this. Making an obscene profit is in some cases is highly questionable (I can accept that some goods are extremely hard to source etc or some services are provided by very highly trained and experienced people) but profit at the end of the day is king, because without it your doors shut.

[bogan]

Or is sustainability King, because it keeps profits in check;)

[Katman]

I must be deluded. (And doomed to failure).

My passion for motorcycling is King.

:weep:

[T.W.R]

No profit IS king if you want long term success. Because if you're not making a profit, you're going out of business. And then there is no long term.

P.S. I said 'profit' is king. I didn't say screw your customers to the wall. Big difference.

:blink: OK so if things aren't doing well you're going to keep your profit margins up :slap: A successful business will always cut it's profit margin when things are looking grim so they can keep afloat in order to survive.....a successful business is continually adjusting to the economic enviroment :msn-wink:

[Scorp]

:blink: OK so if things aren't doing well you're going to keep your profit margins up :slap: A successful business will always cut it's profit margin when things are looking grim so they can keep afloat in order to survive
You can "keep afloat" on a small profit margin, but without one, you sink. Reducing margin is one thing. But if a business has to cut it's margin to the extent that it isn't actually making a profit, it's not a successful business. It's about to fold. That's why I said that profit is king. Because if you're not making a profit, you're making a loss. And if you're making a loss, you're on your way out of business. Simple maths.


.....a successful business is continually adjusting to the economic enviroment :msn-wink:
Only if it's also making a profit. Otherwise it's just continually dead.

[Robert Taylor]

They dont want some constructive advice to save them from their own stupidity, they want to tell us what a bunch of stupid blind old fogies we are. Thats why several posts ago, I started to actively encourage these experts to put their money where their mouths are & get on with it.
I think FAB is a great idea & the brainchildren of it should crack on ASAP with getting it off the ground, I mean, look at Sam Morgan, the brains behind Trademe. Youse fullas could be the next him.

Motivated dealers like Scott411 are already using their own form of FAB.

[Smifffy]

You can "keep afloat" on a small profit margin, but without one, you sink. Reducing margin is one thing. But if a business has to cut it's margin to the extent that it isn't actually making a profit, it's not a successful business. It's about to fold. That's why I said that profit is king. Because if you're not making a profit, you're making a loss. And if you're making a loss, you're on your way out of business. Simple maths.


Only if it's also making a profit. Otherwise it's just continually dead.

Have you ever actually owned a business? Sometimes losses are made, and if you close your doors in a panic the first bad month you have then you may as well close now. IMO that kind of thinking is what made this last recession bite all the harder. In previous years, during a bit of a blip in the economy, manufacturers would continue to build a bit of inventory to keep running, businesses with sufficient capital weathered the storm, and creamed it when the under-funded "lean" businesses folded.

Now with all the MBA fuck-wittery leading to every asset a business ever had being sold off and leased back, with the funds going to executive bonuses, rather than back to capital, the whole thing collapses.

[Robert Taylor]

I'm sorry if any of my posts seemed to condemn the dealers for their prices, I only recall saying I can get them cheaper internationally so will do so, never stating it was the dealers fault. If there are unreasonable markups in the above company's what can be done about it? I assume all bike shops in NZ deal with a limited number of wholesalers (also in NZ), which sounds like monopoly, will customers buying parts from overseas instead of locally alert these wholesalers to their folly and improve the market for all?

Flipping heck, the power of assumption and the us and them mentality yet again! All of us nasty ''heads in the sand'' industry people are in fact ordinary everyday people. Some of them even have a life.


There are several competing wholeslaers offering their own lines of product, plus a raft of parallell importers. And thats monopoly?

Folly? The only folly is that there isnt global pricing for all distributors as in my interfering way in daring to post on this thread I have had the temerity to state that it is not a level playing field.

Unreasonable markups? Again assumption is quite different to reality, not all importers are tarred with the same brush.

If the exchange rate was 50c US to $1 NZ and there wasnt so much dumping of product going on by a basically failed US economy this thread wouldnt exist.

[Robert Taylor]

Or is sustainability King, because it keeps profits in check;)

Are you a marxist?

Its a balance between making a fair and reasonable profit, knowing your product intimately and to that end providing excellent customer service. And then after all overheads ensuring that your balance sheet is in the black. For many or most small businesses that is a hell of a lot harder than people realise.

[bogan]

Let me say again, the pricing of the items that a bike shop sells is the one area that they don't deserve to be condemned for. The likes of Suzuki NZ, Triumph NZ, Bluewing Honda etc are the ones who should be coming under close scrutiny in that respect.


Flipping heck, the power of assumption and the us and them mentality yet again! All of us nasty ''heads in the sand'' industry people are in fact ordinary everyday people. Some of them even have a life.


There are several competing wholeslaers offering their own lines of product, plus a raft of parallell importers. And thats monopoly?

Folly? The only folly is that there isnt global pricing for all distributors as in my interfering way in daring to post on this thread I have had the temerity to state that it is not a level playing field.

Unreasonable markups? Again assumption is quite different to reality, not all importers are tarred with the same brush.

If the exchange rate was 50c US to $1 NZ and there wasnt so much dumping of product going on by a basically failed US economy this thread wouldnt exist.

It was based on katman's statement that perhaps it is the like of bluewing, suzuki nz and triumph nz should come under close scrutiny, logically it follows that if they need to come under scrutiny they are pricing too high, and I also assumed that some sort of monopoly would be present to allow them to do this. Interesting you chose my post to respond to and not his though.

If they are overpricing then buying off the internet will show their folly.


Are you a marxist?

Its a balance between making a fair and reasonable profit, knowing your product intimately and to that end providing excellent customer service. And then after all overheads ensuring that your balance sheet is in the black. For many or most small businesses that is a hell of a lot harder than people realise.

Was a tounge in cheek comment, you know; the key to a long lasting buisness, is sutainability (basically a synonym for long lasting) ;)

[Robert Taylor]

It was based on katman's statement that perhaps it is the like of bluewing, suzuki nz and triumph nz should come under close scrutiny, logically it follows that if they need to come under scrutiny they are pricing too high, and I also assumed that some sort of monopoly would be present to allow them to do this. Interesting you chose my post to respond to and not his though.

If they are overpricing then buying off the internet will show their folly.



Was a tounge in cheek comment, you know; the key to a long lasting buisness, is sutainability (basically a synonym for long lasting) ;)

There is a large degree of discussion over the price of parts from distributors and has been for many many years. The true state of affairs I really dont know but if you are in a small economy with small stock turn you end up writing off a lot of dead stock. Thats just one factor of many complexities.

I am saying that its all too easy to condemn pricing just on the basis of a direct comparison with a high turnover very low margin internet reseller. And the current exchange rate exacerbates that even further.

[Conquiztador]

I'll be the first to admit that my opening post in this thread would be lucky to score a 1 out of 10 for constructiveness (and even then, only because there were no spelling mistakes).


Blimey! THAT would have to be as close to an apology I have ever seen from you... I think it will be your best effort I will ever get. So I will have to accept it. ;)

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

They dont want some constructive advice to save them from their own stupidity, they want to tell us what a bunch of stupid blind old fogies we are. Thats why several posts ago, I started to actively encourage these experts to put their money where their mouths are & get on with it.
I think FAB is a great idea & the brainchildren of it should crack on ASAP with getting it off the ground, I mean, look at Sam Morgan, the brains behind Trademe. Youse fullas could be the next him.

Didn't Sam Morgan just steal his trademe ideas of a couple of other students he did some programming work for?

Plus, his dad, even though a keen adventure biker which I respect, likes to spout complete and utter crap about the financial services industry. He likes to whip up public sentiment by using emotive words with no logic to his arguments.

As the financial services industry is my industry, I can sympathise with what the bike bike industry posters feel here (at times), when someone portrays their industry unfairly you just feel you have to put the record straight.

[Scorp]

Have you ever actually owned a business?
Yes. Been running one successfully (at a profit) for the last seven years. Managed several successful ones prior to that too.


Sometimes losses are made, and if you close your doors in a panic the first bad month you have then you may as well close now.
I'm not talking about loss leaders, or shifting old stock that's costing money, or weathering storms. I'm talking about long term trading. And to stay in business long term, you have to make a profit. Simple really.

[steve_t]

Didn't Sam Morgan just steal his trademe ideas of a couple of other students he did some programming work for?


I thought Sam Morgan just saw the opportunity that presented itself when eBay decided that NZ was too small a place to set up shop in. Good on him really

[2 wheel madness]

SERVICE!
Theres a lot to be said for a friendly hello, what can we help you with.... from staff that have a reasonalbe knowledge of what they are talking about and actually want to help!
Carrying a decent range of stock is another thing.

[Smifffy]

SERVICE!
Theres a lot to be said for a friendly hello, what can we help you with.... from staff that have a reasonalbe knowledge of what they are talking about and actually want to help!
Carrying a decent range of stock is another thing.

Nobody cares anymore

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

I thought Sam Morgan just saw the opportunity that presented itself when eBay decided that NZ was too small a place to set up shop in. Good on him really
That was before ebay decided to play in NZ market as far as I am aware.

I just recently started using ebay NZ as my launch point for buying bike parts.
There are feck all sellers in NZ but the international aspect of ebay does give you a damn sight more access to suppliers than trademe does.

I used to peruse trademe frequently - great for buying a bike or car but crap for parts. Once you realise how limited it is you generally tend to give up with it.

[Brian d marge]

Hooters
Big giamungus pair of Hooters

and a devilish ,,,take me home smile

Hell I would even buy something

Stephen

[R-Soul]

Flipping heck, the power of assumption and the us and them mentality yet again! All of us nasty ''heads in the sand'' industry people are in fact ordinary everyday people. Some of them even have a life.


There are several competing wholeslaers offering their own lines of product, plus a raft of parallell importers. And thats monopoly?

Folly? The only folly is that there isnt global pricing for all distributors as in my interfering way in daring to post on this thread I have had the temerity to state that it is not a level playing field.

Unreasonable markups? Again assumption is quite different to reality, not all importers are tarred with the same brush.

If the exchange rate was 50c US to $1 NZ and there wasnt so much dumping of product going on by a basically failed US economy this thread wouldnt exist.

If you are worried about parallel importers. you need to look closer at what intellectual property can do for you.

[R-Soul]

Find-A-Bit. A made up company used as an example by a previous poster in the thread.

AAAH.. Ok thanks - I am so over this thread I couldn't be bothered reading back any more.

[Conquiztador]

AAAH.. Ok thanks - I am so over this thread I couldn't be bothered reading back any more.

And that is the sad thing here. Personally I was looking forward to input from all and sundry re how they would do it without any consideration to logic or reason. My plan (if that is what it could be considered) was to carry on this for a while, then spend some time trawling through the whole thread and write down ALL things the customer wanted. Then I was planning to start a new thread with a heading like "Industry, this is what your customer wants", ask the trade to have alook at all the wishes and ideas, and in that thread ASK them to comment on each and every idea. Until only one or two wishes/ideas were left that all/most considered worth contemplating and perhaps taking aboard.

Perhaps none of the ideas/wishes could ever have been used. Perhaps the only one/two of them that held some merit were already in place. Who knows. But what has come out from this is that the active trade chaps/chapesses on KB have felt very threatened by the comments on here. The reason for THAT in it self is worth pondering on.

[Scorp]

And that is the sad thing here. Personally I was looking forward to input from all and sundry re how they would do it without any consideration to logic or reason. My plan (if that is what it could be considered) was to carry on this for a while, then spend some time trawling through the whole thread and write down ALL things the customer wanted. Then I was planning to start a new thread with a heading like "Industry, this is what your customer wants", ask the trade to have alook at all the wishes and ideas, and in that thread ASK them to comment on each and every idea. Until only one or two wishes/ideas were left that all/most considered worth contemplating and perhaps taking aboard.

Perhaps none of the ideas/wishes could ever have been used. Perhaps the only one/two of them that held some merit were already in place. Who knows. But what has come out from this is that the active trade chaps/chapesses on KB have felt very threatened by the comments on here. The reason for THAT in it self is worth pondering on.
Actually, I think you'll find there's a huge number of positive contributions on your thread from people with very real suggestions about what they'd like from "the perfect bike shop". The vast majority of which have not been knocked or naysayed by anyone. So perhaps you should trawl through and do as you planned. Be a shame after all everyone's effort if you let the intended purpose of your thread go to waste.

[T.W.R]

You can "keep afloat" on a small profit margin, but without one, you sink. Reducing margin is one thing. But if a business has to cut it's margin to the extent that it isn't actually making a profit, it's not a successful business. It's about to fold. That's why I said that profit is king. Because if you're not making a profit, you're making a loss. And if you're making a loss, you're on your way out of business. Simple maths.


Only if it's also making a profit. Otherwise it's just continually dead.

Don't be so naive.......there's been plenty of businesses that have started from scratch and run in the red for substantial lengths of time before even looking like making a hint of a profit and with passion & dedication for what they're trying to achieve have weathered the storm to become leaders of business.
making profit is the end goal of business, there's far more important factors involved to becoming established and successful.
Making profit your be all & end all is just a focus fuelled by greed

[Robert Taylor]

If you are worried about parallel importers. you need to look closer at what intellectual property can do for you.

Good point but Id like you to elaborate a bit further. As far as product knowledge and experience is concerned we of course have very much the upper hand.

[R-Soul]

Good point but Id like you to elaborate a bit further. As far as product knowledge and experience is concerned we of course have very much the upper hand.

Of corse each case needs to be looked at on its won merits, but there are possible ways to obtain exclusive rights to use particular trademarks/designs/copyright in NZ so that even parallel importers may not be able to use them. Of course you would need the cooperaton of the licensor for this. You should talk to an IP lawyer.

[Scorp]

Don't be so naive.......there's been plenty of businesses that have started from scratch and run in the red for substantial lengths of time before even looking like making a hint of a profit
Me naive? Ha-ha! I said "trading" at a profit. Sure you can borrow a million and take 10 years to pay it back, but only if you TRADE at a PROFIT. What the hell did they teach on your business course?!


Making profit your be all & end all is just a focus fuelled by greed
I agree, and the profit imperative is about as far away from my personal philosophy as you can possibly get. But we're not talking personal philosophy here, we're talking about business. And if a business cannot turn a long term trading profit, it will fold. Simple maths.

[Pixie]

I remember it well. But I never did know what FAB Virgil actually stood for!

Fuck All Brain

[R-Soul]

Look Scorp is not saying that a business should milk its customers- because that is also a way to lose business. He is just saying that there is just no way to pay loans, salaries, and stock unless you are making at least the same or more than you are paying for it. and if you are making the same, then why bother? You could just as easily sit on your bum at home and make nothing.

[T.W.R]

Me naive? Ha-ha! I said "trading" at a profit. Sure you can borrow a million and take 10 years to pay it back, but only if you TRADE at a PROFIT. What the hell did they teach on your business course?!

obiviously a bit more than what you were taught....the core of this thread is about starting a business from scratch not operating an existing business :yes:



I agree, and the profit imperative is about as far away from my personal philosophy as you can possibly get. But we're not talking personal philosophy here, we're talking about business. And if a business cannot turn a long term trading profit, it will fold. Simple maths.

true but a successful business in the long term has whats called "an adaptive culture" which involves a high percentage of forecasting & planning and strategic handling to influence their operating enviroment...... a business such as what is suggested here established a "trade association" in order to survive enviromental uncertainty ie: a learning organisation. What is suggested here is essentially a "greenfield venture" operating in a virtual enviroment which is high risk but with the potential to be successful

[onearmedbandit]

There's talk of passion etc being more important than profit, and from a personal point of view that is correct. But if I was in the position of owning my own business, that also happened to be my passion, I could do it a lot easier if I could pay my bills and have enough left over to make it worth my time.

[Scorp]

obiviously a bit more than what you were taught....
Evidently not. See what R-Sole wrote above. He was spot on.


the core of this thread is about starting a business from scratch not operating an existing business :yes:
I know... but if you can't demonstrate from day one, that your new business can trade at a profit - no bank, no investor, no one at all in their right mind - is going to back your venture. And if you ever plan on sinking your own personal finances into a venture without first having established how to make a trading profit, I would kindly ask you to give your money to a worthwhile charity instead.


... a successful business in the long term has whats called "an adaptive culture" which involves a high percentage of forecasting & planning and strategic handling to influence their operating enviroment......
All true. But the "adaptive culture" of a successful business does not include trading at a loss. Not unless it wants to adapt out of existence.


a business such as what is suggested here established a "trade association" in order to survive enviromental uncertainty ie: a learning organisation. What is suggested here is essentially a "greenfield venture" operating in a virtual enviroment which is high risk but with the potential to be successful
The key words from your above statement are: "potential to be successful". If you cannot show on paper that you can pay wages, pay rent, lease equipment, promote your brand, buy stock, pay insurance, sell your product... and turn in a trading profit, your idea has zero potential for success.

Successful = Profitable.
Unprofitable = Fail.

Do you get it now?

[T.W.R]

Scorp you & R sole are talking in the realms of a business on an industrial scale...which is quite a bit different to what Conquiztador & Bogan are suggesting ie: a small business operating via the internet. It's still a very complicated operation but still quite possible.....around the world hundreds of small businesses open every month and on the scale of things small business ventures are becoming more equitable than large scale operations.
You may have overlooked a piece of one of my earlier posts saying: it's hard to see the forest when looking at an individual tree. There are a lot of influences that they may not have considered and are yet to realise but it doesn't give some of the detractors the right to shoot the idea down in flames....if every idea people have had over the years for fledgling businesses hadn't been allowed to grow to fruition then we'd be in a pretty sad place these days....an acorn grows into an oak if it's given a chance

[Scorp]

Scorp you & R sole are talking in the realms of a business on an industrial scale...which is quite a bit different to what Conquiztador & Bogan are suggesting ie: a small business operating via the internet.
No... what we're saying applies to all businesses. I run a one man band business, it's just me. If I don't turn a profit month in month out, my family doesn't eat. That's not 'industrial scale.'

Same goes for Conquiztador's & Bogan's ideas. Do you really think either of those guys will go for it if they don't think they can make a profit? They aren't proposing to set up NZ Biker's Charity Stores, they're proposing businesses. Both of them have worked out a way to minimize their risk (i.e. not actually stocking parts), whilst still making a profit. If they do their sums right, it could work. But if they can't operate at a profit, all they'll be doing is giving away their own money (and/or the banks) to motorcycle owners.


....around the world hundreds of small businesses open every month and on the scale of things small business ventures are becoming more equitable than large scale operations.
Do you actually know the failure rate for small business start ups? From memory I think it's about 90% within 3 years. Try googling it.


There are a lot of influences that they may not have considered and are yet to realise but it doesn't give some of the detractors the right to shoot the idea down in flames....if every idea people have had over the years for fledgling businesses hadn't been allowed to grow to fruition then we'd be in a pretty sad place these days....an acorn grows into an oak if it's given a chance
I agree wholeheartedly. But if you track back to where this discussion over profit began, you'll see it had nothing to do with the guys' ideas, but with a post you made that knocked bike shops for making a profit. That's all. All small businesses, including your local bike shop and "Find-a-Bit"... have to make a trading profit to survive. Simple fact.

[Headbanger]

I know... but if you can't demonstrate from day one, that your new business can trade at a profit - no bank, no investor, no one at all in their right mind - is going to back your venture. And if you ever plan on sinking your own personal finances into a venture without first having established how to make a trading profit, I would kindly ask you to give your money to a worthwhile charity instead.


So, how do you do that with a startup company?

Its easy enough to write down how many customers/sales you need a week to cover expenses but how does that equate into real world figures? It may take 2 years to build up a customer base that is big enough to sustain your business,...but 2 years would be just as much a wild guess as anything else. And until you open your doors....who the hell knows?

Alternatively I could start a Civil contracting business, How would you realistically demonstrate you will win contracts?, or what time frame to return a profit?, does this mean no one should ever start a civil contracting business?

[Scorp]

So, how do you do that with a startup company?
You have to write yourself a business plan - full of market research, real world examples, realistic trading projections, opportunity and risk assessments and supporting data - that's strong enough, realistic enough, and promising enough to convince a bank/investor.

Either that or you wing it.


Alternatively I could start a Civil contracting business, How would you realistically demonstrate you will win contracts?, or what time frame to return a profit?, does this mean no one should ever start a civil contracting business?
How many Civil Contracting businesses do you think are started by individuals from scratch. My guess is that most are started by existing organizations with years of relevant experience, excellent contacts, and contracts lined up and almost in the bag.

Please don't think I'm suggesting no one goes into business, just that people think long and hard about it first. Especially those who don't think profitability is an issue.

[steve_t]

So, how do you do that with a startup company?

Its easy enough to write down how many customers/sales you need a week to cover expenses but how does that equate into real world figures? It may take 2 years to build up a customer base that is big enough to sustain your business,...but 2 years would be just as much a wild guess as anything else. And until you open your doors....who the hell knows?

Alternatively I could start a Civil contracting business, How would you realistically demonstrate you will win contracts?, or what time frame to return a profit?, does this mean no one should ever start a civil contracting business?

If you go to the bank to borrow money, that's exactly what you have to do. Sit down and project sales figures with margins and expected profits considering all expenses. Obviously knowledge of the industry is paramount and the projected figures have to be realistic. The bank will look at other businesses in the industry and of a similar business model to determine how realistic your business plan is. They obviously don't want to lend a great deal of money (without huge guarantees) to high risk businesses.

Edit: Damn you speedy Scorp :laugh:

[T.W.R]

No... what we're saying applies to all businesses. I run a one man band business, it's just me. If I don't turn a profit month in month out, my family doesn't eat. That's not 'industrial scale.'

Same goes for Conquiztador's & Bogan's ideas. Do you really think either of those guys will go for it if they don't think they can make a profit? They aren't proposing to set up NZ Biker's Charity Stores, they're proposing businesses. Both of them have worked out a way to minimize their risk (i.e. not actually stocking parts), whilst still making a profit. If they do their sums right, it could work. But if they can't operate at a profit, all they'll be doing is giving away their own money (and/or the banks) to motorcycle owners.

I don't think and I'm sure either of them don't intend quiting their existing jobs to do this.....there isn't need to for either for it to be operational.

There a plenty of people with fledgling businesses as a secondary job some successful enough to consider becoming their primary form of income.



Do you actually know the failure rate for small business start ups? From memory I think it's about 90% within 3 years. Try googling it..

Due to lack of planning and the lack of management skill



I agree wholeheartedly. But if you track back to where this discussion over profit began, you'll see it had nothing to do with the guys' ideas, but with a post you made that knocked bike shops for making a profit. That's all. All small businesses, including your local bike shop and "Find-a-Bit"... have to make a trading profit to survive. Simple fact.

I'll knock bikeshops for making a profit at the expense of their clientele due to experience from both sides of the counter......and it wasn't aimed at the profit margin it was aimed at how some bikeshops go about making their profit. You should have read the particular posts more thoroughly

[Headbanger]

You have to write yourself a business plan - full of market research, real world examples, realistic trading projections, opportunity and risk assessments and supporting data - that's strong enough, realistic enough, and promising enough to convince a bank/investor.

Either that or you wing it.

Sweet:shutup:



How many Civil Contracting businesses do you think are started by individuals from scratch. My guess is that most are started by existing organizations with years of relevant experience, excellent contacts, and contracts lined up and almost in the bag.



Historically mainly family businesses in NZ, Pick up any phone book and look at the company names. Though this is changing as many of the old timers are retiring and its generally their capabilities that carry the company.

And I know of a half dozen people that have started their own companies after working in the industry for a decade or two. A truck, an excavator, a shovel and you hit the ground stumbling.

Contracts lined up and almost in the bag?, That's pretty funny.

[Scorp]

I don't think and I'm sure either of them don't intend quiting their existing jobs to do this.....there isn't need to for either for it to be operational.
Which is irrelevant. If they can't run their sideline businesses at a profit, they will effectively be posting their own cash to other bikers along with the parts they've ordered. I think Conquistador and Bogan get that. Can't understand why you don't.


There a plenty of people with fledgling businesses as a secondary job some successful enough to consider becoming their primary form of income.
Only if they are profitable.

You seem to be missing my point. I'm not saying, "don't run a business." I am saying: "Don't run an unprofitable business."

It's really not that complicated a concept.

[Scorp]

And I know of a half dozen people that have started their own companies after working in the industry for a decade or two. A truck, an excavator, a shovel and you hit the ground running.
Pretty much what I figured. Experience + contacts + equipment + an inside track on a contract = you're in business. Profitable trading virtually from day one.

Again... please try to understand that I'm not against people going in to business for themselves. All I'm saying is that anyone who thinks they can wake up one morning and run a business without knowing how and when it's going to start making a trading profit is simply asking for a whole world of pain.

And on that note... I charge by the hour for my time, and this thread is beginning to take up too much of it... which is terribly unprofitable... so I'm going to have to give it a rest for a while.

[Headbanger]

Only if they are profitable.

You seem to be missing my point. I'm not saying, "don't run a business." I am saying: "Don't run an unprofitable business."

It's really not that complicated a concept.

I doubt many people would forge ahead with a plan if it didn't work on paper, But no matter how much effort is put into the guess work (forecast profits) The real would is always more harsh....and realistic. And its a fact of being in business that at times you may run at a loss, especially in your first few years.

[Ixion]

Do you actually know the failure rate for small business start ups? From memory I think it's about 90% within 3 years. Try googling it. That figure is a bit misleading though. It includes small business that are wound up for reasons other than illiquidity or banruptcy.

What happens a lot, is that Bill Bloggs is working for wages or salary. And decides to set up on his own -as someone said, a truck and excavator and he's away' other industries, even less outlay

So , he does this for a few years, then, for whatever reaosn, moves back to working for someone else . Sometimes people move back and forth bewteen working for others and being self employed many times. There's not an absolute division between running your own business and working for someone else. Sometimes people even do both at once. Working for wages, maybe part time, and running a small business the rest of the week.
If you cannot show on paper that you can pay wages, pay rent, lease equipment, promote your brand, buy stock, pay insurance, sell your product... and turn in a trading profit, your idea has zero potential for success.


In the scenarios being predicated here, a lot of those aren't going to be big to start with. probably no rent (work from home - internet means you don't need bricks and mortar) , bugger all equipment, probably no brands (they're selling others' brands) no real insurance cost, no wages.

They could also be run in conjunction with a day job.

I'll throw out a thought of something I've seen done quite well - internet sales, but using webcam technology to enable to the buyer to talk with a live person, and view the actual goods. Not as good as being there in meatspace, but more personal than a webpage, and reassuring to many people. Investment is bugger all, and the technology is getting better all the time. Easy to do, web site has the usual pictures and text, plus a "talk to me real time" button. That way the seller can make a personalised saless pitch, ask questions, make suggestions etc.

Just a thought, the whole internet selling paradigm is starting to look really old and tired, it's been around since forever now, and it's overdue for a rev up. This is the 22nd century after all, we can't all keep on living in the past.

[Headbanger]

Pretty much what I figured. Experience + contacts + equipment + an inside track on a contract = you're in business. Profitable trading virtually from day one.



Sort of, You need the experience or your doomed.

Inside track on a contract?, well, yes and no.

It helps to be known in the industry if you want to be taken seriously, But you need many contracts to survive, each month is a make or break situation and everyone is cutting their own throats to lose the most money on each project.

The goal is to survive day 1......

[R-Soul]

I don't think and I'm sure either of them don't intend quiting their existing jobs to do this.....there isn't need to for either for it to be operational.

Not sure what you mean here- my understanding of "operational" is "in business" (i.e. trading).

How do you "start a business" without it being "operational"?


There a plenty of people with fledgling businesses as a secondary job some successful enough to consider becoming their primary form of income.

And if they are not making a profit, they aremaking a loss, so they will need to make more salary to compansate for their business's losses. Maybe they can get a second job to pay for the losses, but then when will they get tome to run their business? And the only way tht it can become their primary form of income, is if it is actually making a profit.

And if it is making nothing or a loss, why would they bother? Out of a misplaced desire to help fellow bikers and undercut bike shops? Nah....

[Headbanger]

I'll throw out a thought of something I've seen done quite well - internet sales, but using webcam technology to enable to the buyer to talk with a live person, and view the actual goods. Not as good as being there in meatspace, but more personal than a webpage, and reassuring to many people.

I was thinking about bringing this up the other day when "The Industry insiders" were throwing rocks at me for saying I expected a reply to an email within a working day. A couple of international retailers I have dealt with have exactly what you describe, real time communication, a real person waiting for your query. Works wonders, Instant info, and brings buyers right into the retail space without leaving home.


Saying don't email us, Ring us if its important just doesn't cut it.

[scott411]

I was thinking about bringing this up the other day when "The Industry insiders" were throwing rocks at me for saying I expected a reply to an email within a working day. A couple of international retailers I have dealt with have exactly what you describe, real time communication, a real person waiting for your query. Works wonders, Instant info, and brings buyers right into the retail space without leaving home.


Saying don't email us, Ring us if its important just doesn't cut it.

to be fair on the 'industry' as you put it i told Robert that it was unacceptable to expect more than a day reply to emails in retail type enviroments, in fact even a day is to long, i think an hour to 90 minutes is where I try to aim for.

what Ixion is saying with a webcam interface is a intersting idea, as even the US websites i deal with only seem to operate in there work hours, so interenational tyupe sales would require 24 hour staffing, almost impossible in NZ imo at the moment, but maybe on some of the biggest web based retailers around the world, although i wonder how long until the person would be photoshopped into someone more attractive than the person that was answering the question,

[Big Dave]

Skype at the workstation - we have a few proposals out to implement it now.

[R-Soul]

That figure is a bit misleading though. It includes small business that are wound up for reasons other than illiquidity or banruptcy.

What happens a lot, is that Bill Bloggs is working for wages or salary. And decides to set up on his own -as someone said, a truck and excavator and he's away' other industries, even less outlay

So , he does this for a few years, then, for whatever reaosn, moves back to working for someone else .

Yup because his buisiness is not making enough money to support his ambitions/requirements- it has therefore failed.





In the scenarios being predicated here, a lot of those aren't going to be big to start with. probably no rent (work from home - internet means you don't need bricks and mortar) , bugger all equipment, probably no brands (they're selling others' brands) no real insurance cost, no wages.

They could also be run in conjunction with a day job.

But you are paying in time, effort 9things that are limited resources) and for stock. You cant sell something you dont have (or something you cant get real quick). And if you can get it quick online, why cant your customers? Why would they go through a middle man?


I'll throw out a thought of something I've seen done quite well - internet sales, but using webcam technology to enable to the buyer to talk with a live person, and view the actual goods. Not as good as being there in meatspace, but more personal than a webpage, and reassuring to many people. Investment is bugger all, and the technology is getting better all the time. Easy to do, web site has the usual pictures and text, plus a "talk to me real time" button. That way the seller can make a personalised saless pitch, ask questions, make suggestions etc.

Just a thought, the whole internet selling paradigm is starting to look really old and tired, it's been around since forever now, and it's overdue for a rev up. This is the 22nd century after all, we can't all keep on living in the past.

Not a bad idea, although you take out the main differnetiator of the Net - automation, speed of processing and lack of salaries of salespersons (which is where cost savings come from mainly). A lot of companies do have telecentres (which is similar)

[Headbanger]

to be fair on the 'industry' as you put it i told Robert that it was unacceptable to expect more than a day reply to emails in retail type enviroments, in fact even a day is to long, i think an hour to 90 minutes is where I try to aim for.

what Ixion is saying with a webcam interface is a intersting idea, as even the US websites i deal with only seem to operate in there work hours, so interenational tyupe sales would require 24 hour staffing, almost impossible in NZ imo at the moment, but maybe on some of the biggest web based retailers around the world, although i wonder how long until the person would be photoshopped into someone more attractive than the person that was answering the question,



Oh noes, You said the "R" word.

The sites I have used didn't have the webcam, Just a live chat client. You log in and put in your query and it gets dealt with in real time. For me its been a deal-maker. I have always been quite happy to log onto the site in question late at night to get the real time interface.

On a local scene it can just be implemented into a desktop running at the company premises.

Initial cost=Zero.....provided someone is already employed to sit at that PC.

[avgas]

Hooters
Big giamungus pair of Hooters

and a devilish ,,,take me home smile

Hell I would even buy something

Stephen
I agree completely with this statement.
No more ugly biker knobs in bike shop. Gimmie hot chicks.
I have idea - Mermaids should sell bikes!

[Headbanger]

Yup because his buisiness is not making enough money to support his ambitions/requirements- it has therefore failed.


Damn, And I was quite happy about everything I achieved in my last business venture, Damn that job offer with company wagon, higher wages, and less stress.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

Mermaids should sell bikes!

They already do don't they?

Just not the two wheeled kind.

[Scorp]

I doubt many people would forge ahead with a plan if it didn't work on paper, But no matter how much effort is put into the guess work (forecast profits) The real would is always more harsh....and realistic. And its a fact of being in business that at times you may run at a loss, especially in your first few years.
Again... please lets not confuse start up borrowings with trading losses. If a business has heavy start up costs, it may indeed be several years before it breaks even. But that is very different from trading at a loss.

I'm talking about the basic, essential, unassailable need for any business to sell bike parts / sandwiches / toasters / rugby gear / financial advice / porn / whatever, for more than it costs to buy, store, provide and market said bike parts / sandwiches / toasters / rugby gear / financial advice / porn / whatever.

If a business ends up, for whatever reasons, in a situation where it is selling it's products or services for less than cost in a desperate effort to stay afloat, it is by definition no longer a successful business. It's a drowning business. That may be harsh, but it's commercial reality.

[Scorp]

That figure is a bit misleading though. It includes small business that are wound up for reasons other than illiquidity or banruptcy.
That's true actually. It's also over inflated by retail sector start ups. Most famous being the husband and wife who have dreamed for years of setting up their own coffee shop or restaurant and find the reality of doing it day in day out a form of self-indentured slavery.


In the scenarios being predicated here, a lot of those aren't going to be big to start with. probably no rent (work from home - internet means you don't need bricks and mortar) , bugger all equipment, probably no brands (they're selling others' brands) no real insurance cost, no wages.

They could also be run in conjunction with a day job.
Absolutely. And fair play to them finding a way to do this. Pretty much what I did too. But none of this changes the fact that you still have to trade at an operating profit to achieve what is commonly known as commercial success. If you don't, you're either losing money or wasting a large part of your life for next to no reward.


I'll throw out a thought of something I've seen done quite well - internet sales, but using webcam technology to enable to the buyer to talk with a live person, and view the actual goods. Not as good as being there in meatspace, but more personal than a webpage, and reassuring to many people. Investment is bugger all, and the technology is getting better all the time. Easy to do, web site has the usual pictures and text, plus a "talk to me real time" button. That way the seller can make a personalised saless pitch, ask questions, make suggestions etc.
That's an excellent idea, I've found these sort of set ups excellent too.

[Brian d marge]

what about the bird out of stingray , now she was hot .....and said ...not a word !

Stephen

BTW
Communication from many business in NZ is SHOCKING , they just dont or the promises , oh it will be done next week i have been busy

I dobt care , I ordered a part to be made , you said next week I told my customer the week after next ,,,,,,, that IS an area that needs to be improved

[Katman]

What really gets me kicking against the pricks (relax Conquiztador, it's just a turn of phrase) is that there are actually motorcycle businesses out there that tick virtually all the boxes that have been mentioned on here. (I can think of one that immediately springs to mind). :whistle:

But instead of actively trying to search out those businesses it seems to be a far greater sport on here to slag off the ones that don't meet your expectations and then lump all motorcycle businesses into that same heap.

[steve_t]

what about the bird out of stingray , now she was hot .....and said ...not a word !


Was that Mareeeena, Aqua Mareeeena? (Marina :laugh:)

Was it in Stingray where instead of saying F-A-B like in Thunderbirds, they said S-I-G??

[Brian d marge]

Was that Mareeeena, Aqua Mareeeena? (Marina :laugh:)

Was it in Stingray where instead of saying F-A-B like in Thunderbirds, they said S-I-G??

now add big jubblies and there is the perfect bike shop worker

Stephen

[bogan]

What really gets me kicking against the pricks (relax Conquistador, it's just a phrase of speech) is that there are actually motorcycle businesses out there that tick virtually all the boxes that have been mentioned on here. (I can think of one that immediately springs to mind). :whistle:

But instead of actively trying to search out those businesses it seems to be a far greater sport on here to slag off the ones that don't meet your expectations and then lump all motorcycle businesses into that same heap.

I think slag off is a bit of an exaggeration init, also, I would like to add one more thing to the list, online prices, I like to be able to check the pricing of parts with very little intention of actually buying them, Im guessing I would be marked as s hit customer if I rang up (or emailed) and price checked 5x as many parts as I actually bought. For instance, how much for a front disc for my 88 bros? online shops I can see it's quite a lot, but probably worth it if I decide not to swap the whole front end...

[Robert Taylor]

to be fair on the 'industry' as you put it i told Robert that it was unacceptable to expect more than a day reply to emails in retail type enviroments, in fact even a day is to long, i think an hour to 90 minutes is where I try to aim for.

what Ixion is saying with a webcam interface is a intersting idea, as even the US websites i deal with only seem to operate in there work hours, so interenational tyupe sales would require 24 hour staffing, almost impossible in NZ imo at the moment, but maybe on some of the biggest web based retailers around the world, although i wonder how long until the person would be photoshopped into someone more attractive than the person that was answering the question,

Yes but in fairness you also clarified it, a business like mine that has a heavy technical focus, custom builds a lot of shocks and is otherwise engaged in work that is very labour intensive. Because of same there will often be a longer lead time to answer especially the more complex e-mails. Its not like selling fine cystal, theres often a lot of detail and whys and wherefores required in our typical e-mail replies.
Aside from maybe 20 minutes a day answering pms on this forum and pulling pins on hand grenades in the forum sections my days are currently 14-16 hours long and lead time on the more complicated e-mail replies up to 3 days. I currently have a staff member on 2 weeks holiday at present so that exacerbates it all, its funny how stff can have time off but owners find it more difficult!
This is a VERY typical issue with small businesses., especially specialised ones engaged in complex and time consuming work. The simpleton answer would be ''employ more staff'' but its VERY difficult to get the right staff and it then makes the business non profitable.

[Robert Taylor]

obiviously a bit more than what you were taught....the core of this thread is about starting a business from scratch not operating an existing business :yes:




true but a successful business in the long term has whats called "an adaptive culture" which involves a high percentage of forecasting & planning and strategic handling to influence their operating enviroment...... a business such as what is suggested here established a "trade association" in order to survive enviromental uncertainty ie: a learning organisation. What is suggested here is essentially a "greenfield venture" operating in a virtual enviroment which is high risk but with the potential to be successful

Are you still in the motorcycle industry?

[T.W.R]

Which is irrelevant. If they can't run their sideline businesses at a profit, they will effectively be posting their own cash to other bikers along with the parts they've ordered. I think Conquistador and Bogan get that. Can't understand why you don't.


Only if they are profitable.

.

My arguement with your train of thought came with your original statement of "Profit is King" which is narrow focus :yes: Then you went on to digress the fundimentals of a business.

Profit is the end goal not initial key to a business.......the number of freshly started businesses that instantly make profit from day one you could count on one hand....it's totally against the norm.

Though as a sideline digression there are plenty of well established & sucessful Non Profit Businesses operating around the world some being truely global operators

[T.W.R]

Are you still in the motorcycle industry?

yeah and doing reasonably well under my own steam :yes:

I only left the last place because of my disgust at the treatment & bullshit some of the genuine clients got dealt........I'm a motorcyclist and have been in a motorcycling family all my life and hate with a passion shops that treat motorcyclists with distain......I've been in & around bike shops and the industry since before i can remember, I've seen good shops come & go and seen the leeches that hide behind a veil of bullshit that baffle the average biker into parting with their money unneccsarily

And as one of the joys when I was with the other outfits, your beloved CKT was one of the difficult SOB wholesalers to deal with :msn-wink:

[sinned]

Fascinating thread. I am so pleased I have not had the urge to seek this doubtful "chance of a lifetime" and rather have been a customer who has found satisfaction with service from the industry and had time to enjoy the ride.

[Robert Taylor]

yeah and doing reasonably well under my own steam :yes:

I only left the last place because of my disgust at the treatment & bullshit some of the genuine clients got dealt........I'm a motorcyclist and have been in a motorcycling family all my life and hate with a passion shops that treat motorcyclists with distain......I've been in & around bike shops and the industry since before i can remember, I've seen good shops come & go and seen the leeches that hide behind a veil of bullshit that baffle the average biker into parting with their money unneccsarily

And as one of the joys when I was with the other outfits, your beloved CKT was one of the difficult SOB wholesalers to deal with :msn-wink:

Pray tell then..........................

[Scorp]

My arguement with your train of thought came with your original statement of "Profit is King" which is narrow focus :yes: Then you went on to digress the fundimentals of a business.
Not really. I've just been banging on about the same thing, namely that if you don't put profit first, nothing else can follow, because you're effectively trading at a loss and therefore going out of business.


Profit is the end goal not initial key to a business.......the number of freshly started businesses that instantly make profit from day one you could count on one hand....it's totally against the norm.
Yeah... still not getting that thing I said about TRADING profit. Every single business begins day one selling it's product for more than the unit cost. i.e. Trading profit. This must be the fifth time I've now made this distinction.


Though as a sideline digression there are plenty of well established & sucessful Non Profit Businesses operating around the world some being truely global operators
Non-profits are not businesses, they are charities.

[T.W.R]

Pray tell then..........................

There were probably a number of factors involved but slow response, having to re-supply original requests and slow delivery of requested items made dealing with CKT difficult.
In your defence though our parts guy was as slow as a wet week and to his own misfortune had a limited knowledge of anything roadbike related.
One of the most difficult issues we had through CKT was sourcing a Ohlins steering damper for a KLX450F which we'd been informed about only weeks prior, then when the order was placed we were given the run around so due to time eventually told CKT where to stick said damper

[T.W.R]

Not really. I've just been banging on about the same thing, namely that if you don't put profit first, nothing else can follow, because you're effectively trading at a loss and therefore going out of business.

you should preach that to the wine industry who were on the news tonight :shutup: none of them said oh hell there goes a loss for the year pack everything up we're done :shifty:





Yeah... still not getting that thing I said about TRADING profit. Every single business begins day one selling it's product for more than the unit cost. i.e. Trading profit. This must be the fifth time I've now made this distinction.

yeah right :blink:



Non-profits are not businesses, they are charities.

Non profit orginisations ARE still businesses and quoted as such in literally all business education publications

[Scorp]

you should preach that to the wine industry who were on the news tonight :shutup: none of them said oh hell there goes a loss for the year pack everything up we're done :shifty:
All you're doing is demonstrating that you're still not getting the point I've been making from the beginning... :clap:

And anyway, I said nothing, at all, about packing up at the first sign of trouble. This is what's known as a straw man argument.


Non profit orginisations ARE still businesses and quoted as such in literally all business education publications
This is a complete red-herring. And you know it. This thread is about for-profit companies.

BTW: my business is actually writing fundraising copy for international non-profit orgs, so I know a thing or two about what they are and what they aren't. And they are not commercial businesses - i.e the subject of this thread.

[Robert Taylor]

There were probably a number of factors involved but slow response, having to re-supply original requests and slow delivery of requested items made dealing with CKT difficult.
In your defence though our parts guy was as slow as a wet week and to his own misfortune had a limited knowledge of anything roadbike related.
One of the most difficult issues we had through CKT was sourcing a Ohlins steering damper for a KLX450F which we'd been informed about only weeks prior, then when the order was placed we were given the run around so due to time eventually told CKT where to stick said damper

Heck I though it was going to be something really bad and totally indefensible.

Yes I agree with what you are saying to the first comment and it rather confirms my own grumblings about the difficulty of finding experienced knowledgable staff that are highly motivated and have a sense of urgency. This is a problem that affects a LOT of businesses, as you well know. Doubtless I would have been able to answer your questions more
readily, had I been available. Due to my own internal frustrations! In the end event I am personally doing more hours because of those very frustrations, it doesnt ''fix'' the problem but it responds to customers faster.

You say you were given the run around re a steering damper, in fact if you had enquired to any Ohlins reseller all over the world at that time they also were having the run around. Ohlins were rejecting every batch of steering damper main bodies ( made by a subcontractor ) for months on end because the material was not stable in dimensional accuracy with aging. In a wing type damper the tolerances have to be very tight and very precise. We were just as frustrated as every time we enquired ''where are they'' the delivery date kept being put back and back. Ohlins themselves were also very frustrated and unfortunately we didnt get the full story until very late in the peace.
So it made us and every other Ohlins distributor in the world look a little bit silly, through no fault of our own, In the absence of a plausible story i.e the truth of it it leads to comments such as ''given the run around''
Although the whole chain of events was unfortunate with that steering damper ( until the material quality problem was resolved ) I also applaud Ohlins for putting quality before supply.
Every manufacturer has issues like this from time to time and when supply is delayed its human nature for customers to scream. If many customers had a better understanding of supply chains for material ( somewhat lengthened given the amount of raw material that China is absorbing ) and lead times for manufacture then they might understand a whole lot better and that screaming is not always wholly justified.
Given also that many manufacturers and subcontractors to those manufacturers laid off lots of staff when the recession bit they have less capacity to produce goods quickly. Lead times are longer and thats going to be with us for quite some time. GET USED TO IT!!!

[Smifffy]

All you're doing is demonstrating that you're still not getting the point I've been making from the beginning... :clap:

And anyway, I said nothing, at all, about packing up at the first sign of trouble. This is what's known as a straw man argument.


This is a complete red-herring. And you know it. This thread is about for-profit companies.

BTW: my business is actually writing fundraising copy for international non-profit orgs, so I know a thing or two about what they are and what they aren't. And they are not commercial businesses - i.e the subject of this thread.


you should preach that to the wine industry who were on the news tonight :shutup: none of them said oh hell there goes a loss for the year pack everything up we're done :shifty:






yeah right :blink:




Non profit orginisations ARE still businesses and quoted as such in literally all business education publications

Flogging a dead horse is one thing, but now you're just whipping a stain on the ground where a dead horse used to be.

[PeeJay]

All you're doing is demonstrating that you're still not getting the point I've been making from the beginning... :clap:

And anyway, I said nothing, at all, about packing up at the first sign of trouble. This is what's known as a straw man argument.


This is a complete red-herring. And you know it. This thread is about for-profit companies.

BTW: my business is actually writing fundraising copy for international non-profit orgs, so I know a thing or two about what they are and what they aren't. And they are not commercial businesses - i.e the subject of this thread.

Scorp, you should stop digging and climb out of your hole before it starts raining.

[PeeJay]

Heck I though it was going to be something really bad and totally indefensible.

Yes I agree with what you are saying to the first comment and it rather confirms my own grumblings about the difficulty of finding experienced knowledgable staff that are highly motivated and have a sense of urgency. This is a problem that affects a LOT of businesses, as you well know. Doubtless I would have been able to answer your questions more
readily, had I been available. Due to my own internal frustrations! In the end event I am personally doing more hours because of those very frustrations, it doesnt ''fix'' the problem but it responds to customers faster.

You say you were given the run around re a steering damper, in fact if you had enquired to any Ohlins reseller all over the world at that time they also were having the run around. Ohlins were rejecting every batch of steering damper main bodies ( made by a subcontractor ) for months on end because the material was not stable in dimensional accuracy with aging. In a wing type damper the tolerances have to be very tight and very precise. We were just as frustrated as every time we enquired ''where are they'' the delivery date kept being put back and back. Ohlins themselves were also very frustrated and unfortunately we didnt get the full story until very late in the peace.
So it made us and every other Ohlins distributor in the world look a little bit silly, through no fault of our own, In the absence of a plausible story i.e the truth of it it leads to comments such as ''given the run around''
Although the whole chain of events was unfortunate with that steering damper ( until the material quality problem was resolved ) I also applaud Ohlins for putting quality before supply.
Every manufacturer has issues like this from time to time and when supply is delayed its human nature for customers to scream. If many customers had a better understanding of supply chains for material ( somewhat lengthened given the amount of raw material that China is absorbing ) and lead times for manufacture then they might understand a whole lot better and that screaming is not always wholly justified.
Given also that many manufacturers and subcontractors to those manufacturers laid off lots of staff when the recession bit they have less capacity to produce goods quickly. Lead times are longer and thats going to be with us for quite some time. GET USED TO IT!!!

All very well saying this now, a better idea would have been to say the same thing (well not all of it) to the customer before he got pissed off.

Saying it now looks like an excuse, "its not my fault its someone else"
Saying it before would still be an excuse but would be taken a lot better by the customer. At least he has some upfront information and can make a decision accordingly. He probably had a customer breathing down his neck who now thinks he is useless. Who has told his friends.
Lack of communication seems to be one of the biggest problems.
Simple thing like email the courier ticket # when you send something
A simple thing like that can nip so many potential problems in the bud before they escalate to "stick it, I want my money back"

Lack of communication, especially when things arent looking good, is a result of pride, people not wanting to look bad, hoping the problem will go away or sort it self out before the SHTF
You didnt want to admit Ohlins had a problem with supply because you think it makes you look bad. Not at all, Ohlins looks bad, and if a damper were to actually turn up you would look good.
Not saying anything has ended up with you looking bad. Even if a damper turned up you still wouldnt have looked great, you were too slow.
Not having a go at your business, just using this example.

[R-Soul]

you should preach that to the wine industry who were on the news tonight :shutup: none of them said oh hell there goes a loss for the year pack everything up we're done :shifty:

yeah right :blink:

Is that the slack jawed blink of non-understanding? Yes, companies sometimes make trading losses on a short term basis (i.e one, maybe two months - even over a year if they group together like the wine industry people- if they have cash reserves or loans to tide them over until they make profit again). And YES companies take loans - that that take up to three years to service. But you tell me this: Once you have taken a loan to strat a business, where are you going to get money to pay the loan off if you are not making any money in normal, everyday trade (i.e. trading profits)?

But if, after paying for salaries and new stock and other trading costs (that you have to pay for on a day to day trading basis) you have no additonal money (trading profit) to pay the loan, how do you ever get it paid off, and once its paid off and you are not making any profit, then why would you bother running a business at all? And if you canot pay it off, th bank forcloses on you and starts tking teh clothes offfyour back.

At least if you are an employee you dont have the stress and dont take a much risk (well I suppose you do take the risk of buinesses failing, because you can lose your job, but at least you dont have to stand personal surety for loans). As scorp said: profit is king. If you aint gonna make any, then dont bother.




Non profit orginisations ARE still businesses and quoted as such in literally all business education publications

No they are ORGANISATIONS (hence not "non-profit businesses"). They are run for a purpose, which does not incolude making profit. They do not have shareholders or owners profit. Their accounting procedures are similar yes, to establish whether they are i n fact makig profit or not, but the basis of these businesses is the idea of doing good for others (philanthropy) and the fact that some people are prepared to start and manage them for little to no reward other than a sense of welllbeing. these organisations are not expected to grow or expand much either.

They have to servce their loans yes, but nobody (generally) starts one for anything other than a philanthropic purpose. And as far as I am aware, nobody has (yet) started a "non-profit bike part supply organisation. Because why would they?

And even if these organisations wanted to expand they would need to have donations, or trading profit. The classic business model EXPECTS a business to expand and grow, and to produce sustainable profits in order to to do so.

[T.W.R]

All you're doing is demonstrating that you're still not getting the point I've been making from the beginning... :clap:

And anyway, I said nothing, at all, about packing up at the first sign of trouble. This is what's known as a straw man argument.


This is a complete red-herring. And you know it. This thread is about for-profit companies.

BTW: my business is actually writing fundraising copy for international non-profit orgs, so I know a thing or two about what they are and what they aren't. And they are not commercial businesses - i.e the subject of this thread.

All you've done is take a tact of running around in a circle and choosing to see what you want to see and turn to selective arguement attacks sunshine :yes:

so you're working for the Girl Guides or the Salvation Army huh ;)
figures though as your business ideals are sounding thoroughly designed from business educational styles of the 70s

[Scorp]

Scorp, you should stop digging and climb out of your hole before it starts raining.

:slap: What! I'm not digging a hole. I'm just mathematically and logically right. This feels like trying to explain multiplication to someone who counts on their fingers.

I hereby give up.

If anyone out there wants to go into business with anything other than profit as their number one priority, good luck. It will, ultimately, be your loss. Literally.

My final comment will be to re-labour the point that I'm not talking about mine or anyone else's personal philosophy, politics or passions in life here. I'm talking about the basic essential imperative for successful commercial enterprise. And that's profitability. For without that, nothing else you want to achieve is possible, including the survival of your business.

[T.W.R]

There is a fundimental business saying that you should be aware of: The Business of Business is Business

also Arrogance is the shortfall to failure

[Scorp]

so you're working for the Girl Guides or the Salvation Army huh ;)
figures though as your business ideals are sounding thoroughly designed from business educational styles of the 70s
No I write fundraising direct marketing campaigns for major non-profits, working with some of the most respected people in the field. Over the last three years the campaigns I've written have raised more than NZ$24 million for those charities.

But I'm sure you'll still contrive some way to convince yourself I don't know shit.

[T.W.R]

No I write fundraising direct marketing campaigns for major non-profits, working with some of the most respected people in the field. Over the last three years the campaigns I've written have raised more than NZ$24 million for those charities.

But I'm sure you'll still contrive some way to convince yourself I don't know shit.

Second sentence in my last post is appropriate

[Scorp]

Second sentence in my last post is appropriate
No, that's just a regurgitated second-hand aphorism yo dug up, which in light of the actual content of my last post is the opposite of appropriate.

[T.W.R]

No, that's just a regurgitated second-hand aphorism yo dug up, which in light of the actual content of my last post is the opposite of appropriate.

If the jacket fits, wear it sunshine

do a check of what arrogant means

[Scorp]

If the jacket fits, wear it sunshine
It doesn't fit

Do a check of what successful means

[Robert Taylor]

All very well saying this now, a better idea would have been to say the same thing (well not all of it) to the customer before he got pissed off.

Saying it now looks like an excuse, "its not my fault its someone else"
Saying it before would still be an excuse but would be taken a lot better by the customer. At least he has some upfront information and can make a decision accordingly. He probably had a customer breathing down his neck who now thinks he is useless. Who has told his friends.
Lack of communication seems to be one of the biggest problems.
Simple thing like email the courier ticket # when you send something
A simple thing like that can nip so many potential problems in the bud before they escalate to "stick it, I want my money back"

Lack of communication, especially when things arent looking good, is a result of pride, people not wanting to look bad, hoping the problem will go away or sort it self out before the SHTF
You didnt want to admit Ohlins had a problem with supply because you think it makes you look bad. Not at all, Ohlins looks bad, and if a damper were to actually turn up you would look good.
Not saying anything has ended up with you looking bad. Even if a damper turned up you still wouldnt have looked great, you were too slow.
Not having a go at your business, just using this example.

The reality is we were not in receipt of the true and full story from Ohlins until very much after the event, that is the COLD HARD reality. And Ohlins themselves were clearly just as frustrated. Its all too easy to say what you have said after the event and quote out of the ''this is the way it should have been handled'' textbook. We were given new etas from Ohlins which we kept passing on to our customers, and those etas kept being put back. We had to keep passing on the only information that they were telling us.
The reality is this happens from time to time with all manufacturers, if the goods are not ready ( for whatever reasons ) then they are just not ready! Many consumers have little idea of the trials and tribulations that occur in manufacturing, lead times in sourcing material, co-ordination of subcontractors, scheduling production runs, forward orders from distributors etc. Rejection of parts from subcontractors, as continually occured in this case.
And then its amazing, theres a brand new bike from a manufacturer that requires a whole new raft of aftermarket parts specific to it. And its expected that aftermarket parts will be available at the same time as the bike is released!!! It kind of overlooks that the aftermarket manufacturer has to access a bike ( not always so easy ) design and build prototype parts, exhaustively test / develop it ( at least in te case of quality manufacturers ) and then committ to the logistics of supply of raw materials, contracts with subcontractors to build sub parts and then co-ordinate it all into production.
And in the end event manufacturers will only build what they want to build, if the numbers or returns arent there they wont build it! And it makes a lot of sense to slightly undersupply so that excess stock doesnt have to be offloaded at firesale prices at the end of tghe season, negatively impacting on your balance sheet.
No excuses, cold hard reality.

[T.W.R]

It doesn't fit

I could understand the issue if it was a jersey...... can't pull the collar over your head :doh:



Do a check of what successful means



:lol: maybe you should too.......doesn't say a thing about PROFIT :finger:

[onearmedbandit]

I think most peoples definition of a 'successful business' would be one that serves it's customers well and makes a profit. No sense serving them well if you're making a trading loss. In fact I just did a trusty ol' google search on 'definition of a successful business', each response I looked at stated primarily that either profit or a healthy return (profit by another name) was what defines a successful business.

[Scorp]

:lol: maybe you should too.......doesn't say a thing about PROFIT
Yeah, you're missing the point again. Your dug up aphorism said: "Arrogance is the shortfall to failure." But I'm not failing. I'm succeeding. That's what I meant by the jacket not fitting.

BTW: some sad :crybaby: has actually given me a red rep just for pointing out the bleeding obvious about profitability.... ha-ha! Hilarious that anyone reading anything I've said should take it so personally as to dish reds. What a baby. Wasn't you was it?

[imdying]

Because of same there will often be a longer lead time to answer especially the more complex e-mails. Its not like selling fine cystal, theres often a lot of detail and whys and wherefores required in our typical e-mail replies.Yes but, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed, you always post/pm and presumably email, a short note that says I acknowledge your request and it'll take me some time to give it the attention it deserves so sit tight. The 20 seconds you take to do that seemingly small thing is customer service gold.

[R-Soul]

All you've done is take a tact of running around in a circle and choosing to see what you want to see and turn to selective arguement attacks sunshine :yes:

so you're working for the Girl Guides or the Salvation Army huh ;)
figures though as your business ideals are sounding thoroughly designed from business educational styles of the 70s

You're the one who wants to work for no profit. He is making a profit while working for charities. Because he is running a BUSINESS, not a CHARITY or NON PROFIT ORGANISATION.

This thread started a quest for a business (i.e. for profit) model that would improve on the current ones. Not a quest to provide handouts and shelter to bikers...

[R-Soul]

I could understand the issue if it was a jersey...... can't pull the collar over your head :doh:

:lol: maybe you should too.......doesn't say a thing about PROFIT :finger:

So why dont you define "success" (in a business sense) for us?

Because while you have denigrated the ideals of profit in a business (the only "reason for being" for most businesses), you have not said what your alternatives are?

[T.W.R]

Yeah, you're missing the point again. Your dug up aphorism said: "Arrogance is the shortfall to failure." But I'm not failing. I'm succeeding. That's what I meant by the jacket not fitting.

BTW: some sad :crybaby: has actually given me a red rep just for pointing out the bleeding obvious about profitability.... ha-ha! Hilarious that anyone reading anything I've said should take it so personally as to dish reds. What a baby. Wasn't you was it?

:slap: Sucessful : adjective of Success....... 1) favourable achievement, 2) good fortune

Arrogance: insolently proud

babies cry out loud about getting a red rep

All you've done is try to make this post below a statement of don't make a profit


:blink: OK so if things aren't doing well you're going to keep your profit margins up :slap: A successful business will always cut it's profit margin when things are looking grim so they can keep afloat in order to survive.....a successful business is continually adjusting to the economic enviroment :msn-wink:

you've got a pretty narrow focus view and inability to understand what it says, and for the life of me I can't see any part of that saying don't make a profit :shit:

[R-Soul]

Yeah, you're missing the point again. Your dug up aphorism said: "Arrogance is the shortfall to failure." But I'm not failing. I'm succeeding. That's what I meant by the jacket not fitting.

BTW: some sad :crybaby: has actually given me a red rep just for pointing out the bleeding obvious about profitability.... ha-ha! Hilarious that anyone reading anything I've said should take it so personally as to dish reds. What a baby. Wasn't you was it?

Yeah I got one red rep too for highlighting his deluded thinking (if he is capable of any at all!). Tosser...

[T.W.R]

You're the one who wants to work for no profit.
This thread started a quest for a business (i.e. for profit) model that would improve on the current ones. Not a quest to provide handouts and shelter to bikers...

You're as amusing as your mate

[T.W.R]

Yeah I got one red rep too for highlighting his deluded thinking (if he is capable of any at all!). Tosser...

cry me a river

[Scorp]

OK so if things aren't doing well you're going to keep your profit margins up A successful business will always cut it's profit margin when things are looking grim so they can keep afloat in order to survive.....a successful business is continually adjusting to the economic enviroment ....

you've got a pretty narrow focus view and inability to understand what it says, and for the life of me I can't see any part of that saying don't make a profit :shit:
Ahh, but you see, I never said that any part of your statement above equals "don't make a profit." You're just putting up another straw man argument. I haven't accused you of 'not wanting to make a profit'. All I've done, time and time again, till it's boring everyone including myself, is to state the blatantly obvious fact that profitability is the single most important priority for any successful business.

On the other hand your statement above does seem exceedingly self-contradictory, because it says:

Firstly:
"OK so if things aren't doing well you're going to keep your profit margins up"
Then:
"A successful business will always cut it's profit margin when things are looking grim so they can keep afloat in order to survive"

Which do you actually mean - increase or cut?

[T.W.R]

Ahh, but you see, I never said that any part of your statement above equals "don't make a profit." You're just putting up another straw man argument. I haven't accused you of 'not wanting to make a profit'. All I've done, time and time again, till it's boring everyone including myself, is to state the blatantly obvious fact that profitability is the single most important priority for any successful business.

On the other hand your statement above does seem exceedingly self-contradictory, because it says:

Firstly:
Then:

Which do you actually mean - increase or cut?

FFS you're either blind or have an inability to comprehend?

there I've added a question mark to that so it's rather clear

Maybe the first piece of what your wanting to know I should have added a question mark so you comprehend the question

The second piece again selective reading as you lack understanding of what you're quoting and conveniently have left out the last part of the statement.

A rather smug form of arrogance on your behalf

[Scorp]

Maybe the first piece of what your wanting to know I should have added a question mark so you comprehend the question
Yes, actually using grammar does help in the comprehension of written English. That's why it exists. You see, from where I'm sitting, I can't actually hear the inflection in your typing.

So it seems that you meant to ask:

"If things aren't doing well, are you're going to keep your profit margins up?"

To this question, I would answer: yes, most definitely. Hold your margins if you can. Slashing margin will only create a downward spiraling price war with your competitors, and more importantly, may result in you working twice as hard for half the reward.


The second piece again selective reading as you lack understanding of what you're quoting and conveniently have left out the last part of the statement.
Quite the reverse. I understood perfectly. It's just I happen to know that what you said is wrong.

You said: "A successful business will always cut it's profit margin when things are looking grim so they can keep afloat in order to survive.....a successful business is continually adjusting to the economic environment."

The highlighted part of this statement is simply not true. A successful business will try to hold it's margin during tough times. It may add value in the form of promotional offers, it may try to find or establish new markets, it may increase advertising spend in order to capitalize on the drop in spending of others, but a truly successful business will try to resist the temptation to compromise on price and/or margin. Check out the companies that are posting healthy profits at the moment - they're the successful ones.

P.S. I forgot to mention earlier that return-on-investment (i.e. profitability) is also the greatest imperative for Non-Profit orgs. Because if it costs more to run their operations than the amount of funds they raise, then they'll have no money for their beneficiaries.

One of my clients has operating costs of just 3% of it's gross fundraising income. In other words they raise 32 times more money than they spend. Effectively an operating profit of 97%! All of which goes to needy children. If they placed less priority on return-on-investment (profit), then they'd have less money for the children they help. And would be less effective at achieving their stated mission.

Same goes for the commercial world too.

[R-Soul]

One of my clients has operating costs of just 3% of it's gross fundraising income. In other words they raise 32 times more money than they spend. Effectively an operating profit of 97%! All of which goes to needy children. If they placed less priority on return-on-investment (profit), then they'd have less money for the children they help. And would be less effective at achieving their stated mission.


Awesome- now thats the kind of charity that can do real good and that I would not mind contributing to. Too often half of what you contribute to them is lost on "administration costs".

[T.W.R]

Yes, actually using grammar does help in the comprehension of written English. That's why it exists. You see, from where I'm sitting, I can't actually hear the inflection in your typing.

So it seems that you meant to ask:

"If things aren't doing well, are you're going to keep your profit margins up?"

To this question, I would answer: yes, most definitely. Hold your margins if you can. Slashing margin will only create a downward spiraling price war with your competitors, and more importantly, may result in you working twice as hard for half the reward.


Quite the reverse. I understood perfectly. It's just I happen to know that what you said is wrong.

You said: "A successful business will always cut it's profit margin when things are looking grim so they can keep afloat in order to survive.....a successful business is continually adjusting to the economic environment."

The highlighted part of this statement is simply not true. A successful business will try to hold it's margin during tough times. It may add value in the form of promotional offers, it may try to find or establish new markets, it may increase advertising spend in order to capitalize on the drop in spending of others, but a truly successful business will try to resist the temptation to compromise on price and/or margin. Check out the companies that are posting healthy profits at the moment - they're the successful ones.

P.S. I forgot to mention earlier that return-on-investment (i.e. profitability) is also the greatest imperative for Non-Profit orgs. Because if it costs more to run their operations than the amount of funds they raise, then they'll have no money for their beneficiaries.

One of my clients has operating costs of just 3% of it's gross fundraising income. In other words they raise 32 times more money than they spend. Effectively an operating profit of 97%! All of which goes to needy children. If they placed less priority on return-on-investment (profit), then they'd have less money for the children they help. And would be less effective at achieving their stated mission.

Same goes for the commercial world too.

Well you answered a lot in that bit of tripe and confirmed what I said about you before your ideals are locked in a era from the last century..... you view of a business is the outdated mechanistic structure to a tee.

People like Walter A. Forbes would leave you dead in the water and Market researchers like J.D Power & Associates would consider you a dinosaur

[Brian d marge]

I smell red

you kow I love the red

Opera on iphone awesome

Stephen

Dont foget Tude ,,,, I get tired of the tude when i go into bike shops

some customers have a wee bit of experience and cant deal with the tude

[Skyryder]

Product knowledge and a greetings a bloody good place to start,that and a total ban on cunts that wear baseball caps the wrong way round and bad acne wearing "i am Rossis bitch T shirts"behind the counter.

Ya got that one right. Never could get this base ball cap 'bakc' to front thing. Next they will be wearing 'kaditcha' boots.


Skyryder

[T.W.R]

Just to add some clarity to the arguement here and to inspire some thought for what the thread starter wanted to achieve before the gunslingers tried shooting it to bits.

The bloke I mentioned in post #336 : Ray Kroc was the founder of McDonalds (everyone knows how sucecessful they are as a global operator), well in the early 80s Kroc had the same mentality as Scorp :yes: even though the 42% hold they had on the american domestic fastfood market was dwindling, Kroc's approach was just as Scorps mentality towards keeping profit margins up and McDonalds was slowly destroying itself until senior management with some foresight and nounce got Kroc to realise reducing the profit margin & increasing turnover would be the best way to fight to survive.......Well Look where they are now :yes:

And Walter A. Forbes is someone that all the naysayers should investigate and someone Conquiztador should look at for inspiration: Walter A. Forbes is the founder of Comp-U-Card (CUC international Inc) a business that is exactly what has been invisaged here, Forbes had the seed of an idea in the late 70s and in the 80s made it happen. At the time of the case study I'm quoting from (1998) CUC International Inc had two dozen small operations servicing 68 million people and Forbes had just launched netMarket an electronic superstore offering 250000 brand name products. Against all the bollocks that was set towards his ideas & dreams he's the one laughing in the face of the dinosaurs that said it wouldn't work.

Just like the outdated robots the aired the same opinions here :angry:

[Robert Taylor]

Just to add some clarity to the arguement here and to inspire some thought for what the thread starter wanted to achieve before the gunslingers tried shooting it to bits.

The bloke I mentioned in post #336 : Ray Kroc was the founder of McDonalds (everyone knows how sucecessful they are as a global operator), well in the early 80s Kroc had the same mentality as Scorp :yes: even though the 42% hold they had on the american domestic fastfood market was dwindling, Kroc's approach was just as Scorps mentality towards keeping profit margins up and McDonalds was slowly destroying itself until senior management with some foresight and nounce got Kroc to realise reducing the profit margin & increasing turnover would be the best way to fight to survive.......Well Look where they are now :yes:

And Walter A. Forbes is someone that all the naysayers should investigate and someone Conquiztador should look at for inspiration: Walter A. Forbes is the founder of Comp-U-Card (CUC international Inc) a business that is exactly what has been invisaged here, Forbes had the seed of an idea in the late 70s and in the 80s made it happen. At the time of the case study I'm quoting from (1998) CUC International Inc had two dozen small operations servicing 68 million people and Forbes had just launched netMarket an electronic superstore offering 250000 brand name products. Against all the bollocks that was set towards his ideas & dreams he's the one laughing in the face of the dinosaurs that said it wouldn't work.

Just like the outdated robots the aired the same opinions here :angry:

Selling fast food is a little different to ( for example ) selling highly technical products that require specialised knowledge and experience, plus parts backup etc.

Everyone knows that McDonalds is a crap product and in part they can only sell at the low price because they employ cheap labour. Its quick, convenient and like polyfilla will fill up your stomach, but maybe a little more agreeably.

But not every industry wnats to devalue its workforce and its product.

Maybe he has made a lot of money but there are other forms of satisfaction than just doing that!

[PeeJay]

Selling fast food is a little different to ( for example ) selling highly technical products that require specialised knowledge and experience, plus parts backup etc.

Everyone knows that McDonalds is a crap product and in part they can only sell at the low price because they employ cheap labour. Its quick, convenient and like polyfilla will fill up your stomach, but maybe a little more agreeably.

But not every industry wnats to devalue its workforce and its product.

Maybe he has made a lot of money but there are other forms of satisfaction than just doing that!

Same difference when it all comes down to it. You can turn your nose up a McDonalds because they're not "highly technical products that require specialised knowledge and experience" but I bet they sell more $$$ worth of burger at a better margin than you do selling ohlins.
Instead of slagging them off maybe look at their business with an open mind?
Whats the worst thing that could happen? you might learn something?
While we are at it, I presume you are talking Ohlins when you say "highly technical products that require specialised knowledge and experience"
Compared to other shocks that may be true but on a scale of technical complexity requiring specialised knowledge they would hardly rate a mention. A sim card would more technically complex than a truckload of shock absorbers.

[T.W.R]

Selling fast food is a little different to ( for example ) selling highly technical products that require specialised knowledge and experience, plus parts backup etc.

Everyone knows that McDonalds is a crap product and in part they can only sell at the low price because they employ cheap labour. Its quick, convenient and like polyfilla will fill up your stomach, but maybe a little more agreeably.

But not every industry wnats to devalue its workforce and its product.

Maybe he has made a lot of money but there are other forms of satisfaction than just doing that!

:weird:Don't be such a narrow minded bigot :wacko:
business operating principles apply to any form of BUSINESS

Just think your beloved Ohlins wouldn't be where it is now if Yamaha hadn't brought into the company :yes:
you've just got a chip on your shoulder with me from what I said you not long after you arrived here on KB, and it still rings true........the almighty push for your franchise despite what a poster really wants to know.....a few weeks ago the guy with the TT250 yamaha wanting fork oil capacities for the bike and you charged in saying to throw ohlins parts at it :slap: the bike in the states where the poster was from would be worth nics...... real bright to throw ohlins at it :blink: sure the forks would be better but it'd show up all the deficiencies of a nigh on 30yr old trail bike....you don't care as long as you push your product

[Grubber]

:weird:Don't be such a narrow minded bigot :wacko:
business operating principles apply to any form of BUSINESS

Just think your beloved Ohlins wouldn't be where it is now if Yamaha hadn't brought into the company :yes:
you've just got a chip on your shoulder with me from what I said you not long after you arrived here on KB, and it still rings true........the almighty push for your franchise despite what a poster really wants to know.....a few weeks ago the guy with the TT250 yamaha wanting fork oil capacities for the bike and you charged in saying to throw ohlins parts at it :slap: the bike in the states where the poster was from would be worth nics...... real bright to throw ohlins at it :blink: sure the forks would be better but it'd show up all the deficiencies of a nigh on 30yr old trail bike....you don't care as long as you push your product

I am only using this one quote as an example so don't take it personally. While i do agree that whilst in business one does have to broaden their horizons, i also agree with Robert Taylor. I am sure Robert being in his business for some years would have some idea of the inside workings rather well. In most cases he would know better than those that sit on here with their degrees etc and throw large quantities of advice to someone that is , and has been in the game for some time.
I have spent 30 years in my own business and have learnt over those years that there are 2 things that should not be compromised. 1) your quality of work and 2) your price margins. I have found over time that if you retain your service levels to a premium and your loyalty to your customers you will hang on to your profit margins easy. My 5 cents worth.

[Robert Taylor]

:weird:Don't be such a narrow minded bigot :wacko:
business operating principles apply to any form of BUSINESS

Just think your beloved Ohlins wouldn't be where it is now if Yamaha hadn't brought into the company :yes:
you've just got a chip on your shoulder with me from what I said you not long after you arrived here on KB, and it still rings true........the almighty push for your franchise despite what a poster really wants to know.....a few weeks ago the guy with the TT250 yamaha wanting fork oil capacities for the bike and you charged in saying to throw ohlins parts at it :slap: the bike in the states where the poster was from would be worth nics...... real bright to throw ohlins at it :blink: sure the forks would be better but it'd show up all the deficiencies of a nigh on 30yr old trail bike....you don't care as long as you push your product

Please quote where I said to throw Ohlins parts at a TT250 set of forks?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! Its real bright to misquote

[Robert Taylor]

Same difference when it all comes down to it. You can turn your nose up a McDonalds because they're not "highly technical products that require specialised knowledge and experience" but I bet they sell more $$$ worth of burger at a better margin than you do selling ohlins.
Instead of slagging them off maybe look at their business with an open mind?
Whats the worst thing that could happen? you might learn something?
While we are at it, I presume you are talking Ohlins when you say "highly technical products that require specialised knowledge and experience"
Compared to other shocks that may be true but on a scale of technical complexity requiring specialised knowledge they would hardly rate a mention. A sim card would more technically complex than a truckload of shock absorbers.

Well I dont care much about knowing all about sim cards, as much as a good many people wont want to know about the complexities of the inner workings of shocks. But they do want to know they can get good service by people ultra familiar and experienced with the product, heck that sounds reasonable to me. Of course you can pick up all the knowledge and experience in 3 minutes flat.
The business models between fast food and a specialised product business may have similiarities but there are a heck of a lot of dissimilarities as well. That is the point I was trying to fairly make.

[bogan]

Of course you can pick up all the knowledge and experience in 3 minutes flat.

oh sweet, linky?

[Robert Taylor]

oh sweet, linky?

Yeah apparently everything is posted on the net and because its on the net its all correct. You dont need to deal with nasty business people because they all rip you off.

[bogan]

Yeah apparently everything is posted on the net and because its on the net its all correct. You dont need to deal with nasty business people because they all rip you off.

no linky handy then? :( Maybe you just got PR issues.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

Just a point here.

Who honestly believes that a MacDonalds hamburger is not a "highly specialised product"? If you do then you are fooling yourself.

Mass produced every day in 100+ countries around the world to the same exact standard. I would probably say that it is one of the most techincally refined items ever created by humankind. If you don't beleive me then just try making one yourself from scratch, then make another 10 million and see how they turn out - all in one day.

Seems wierd I know but I would honestly say that the common big mac (for example) has gone through more design iterations and anlysis than an ohlins shock.

I'm not posting this to annoy Robert Taylor just highlighting the fact that:
MacDonalds created their market out of a standardised product which was able to be delivered by a simplified & standardised process (their kitchen design was their real market winner for those who read up on this stuff).

This is how MacDonalds dominated their industry. I thought this thread was about how, theoretically, a bike shop could dominate their local market - in the opinion of the customer?

I think I misread the title of the thread though, it should read "Who knows the most about business models and wants to prove it?"

[bogan]

Just a point here.

Who honestly believes that a MacDonalds hamburger is not a "highly specialised product"? If you do then you are fooling yourself.

Mass produced every day in 100+ countries around the world to the same exact standard. I would probably say that it is one of the most techincally refined items ever created by humankind. If you don't beleive me then just try making one yourself from scratch, then make another 10 million and see how they turn out - all in one day.

Seems wierd I know but I would honestly say that the common big mac (for example) has gone through more design iterations and anlysis than an ohlins shock.

I'm not posting this to annoy Robert Taylor just highlighting the fact that:
MacDonalds created their market out of a standardised product which was able to be delivered by a simplified & standardised process (their kitchen design was their real market winner for those who read up on this stuff).

This is how MacDonalds dominated their industry. I thought this thread was about how, theoretically, a bike shop could dominate their local market - in the opinion of the customer?

I think I misread the title of the thread though, it should read "Who knows the most about business models and wants to prove it?"

yeh, anyon with that much market share knows thier shit about buisness. I don't like thier food, cept maybe for some drunken om nom noms.... but the fat kids seem to be loving it.

Well for the first 10 pages it was what customers want, then the next 10 it was you customers don't know shit, then the next 10 it was something about business models.

[Robert Taylor]

yeh, anyon with that much market share knows thier shit about buisness. I don't like thier food, cept maybe for some drunken om nom noms.... but the fat kids seem to be loving it.

Well for the first 10 pages it was what customers want, then the next 10 it was you customers don't know shit, then the next 10 it was something about business models.

More like a game of splitting hairs, you said this I said that and stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[bogan]

More like a game of splitting hairs, you said this I said that and stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

but I don't smoke :confused: I also came up with the solution to any unfair price margins put on by the NZ wholesellers, free markets FTW! Would you like me to fix your PR issues as well?

[Robert Taylor]

but I don't smoke :confused: I also came up with the solution to any unfair price margins put on by the NZ wholesellers, free markets FTW! Would you like me to fix your PR issues as well?

I dont smoke either and if you think you came up with a solution TRY IT!!

Unfair price margins??? Not that tired old statement again, borne of assumption and short on truth.


PR, the only PR issues I have is wasting my time justifying ''tricky isues'' to those who think they have all the answers. In reality you will note that I have through many threads acknowledged good ideas. And been just as condemning of ones that are very risky on the basis of having less industry knowledge than those putting it forward thought they had.

[bogan]

I dont smoke either and if you think you came up with a solution TRY IT!!
already am, buy from overseas if cheaper


Unfair price margins??? Not that tired old statement again, borne of assumption and short on truth.

read the any in my post, the only assumption is you assuming that I'm saying there are unfair margins.


PR, the only PR issues I have is wasting my time justifying ''tricky isues'' to those who think they have all the answers. In reality you will note that I have through many threads acknowledged good ideas. And been just as condemning of ones that are very risky on the basis of having less industry knowledge than those putting it forward thought they had.
I would consider people feeling they are getting a crap deal locally so buying internationally a PR issue. Of course that business principal may not apply to your industry either...

[Brian d marge]

Mdcds
I actually have an interest in this company , its what right and whats wrong with The United states ( of NZ) The base product , is refined and specialized but is flexible enough for the customer ,( here the biggest complaint was the waiting time as the non thinking tried to order ) within a short time the menu was streamlined , now as has been pointed out in these hard times a lot of base product has been reduced in price to one coin ( 100 yen , u cant but a bottle of coke for that )
The kitchen was streamlined
BUT the company as a whole makes its profits from another completely different revenue stream ( property I believe)

On the reverse of all that , Its not healthy for you and the company makes no apologies for that ( some token gestures such as weight watchers etc and of course that super-size me movie )

but as a company ,,,,,,,

As I said before if I could find that crossover product , service ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Stephen

[FROSTY]

BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION. If I was by chance setting up a dealership what would I do ? To start with I'd look around the country possibly even the world and see what formula seems to be the most sucessfull. I'd then see if that model could be applied to the area I'm thinking of opening up shop in.
I'd also be lookin very hard at how much money the company would need to make on a quarterly basis in order to survive-taking into account ALL operating expenses and see if that is a reasonable expectation.

[Brian d marge]

Ya cant go back to the original question ,,,thats not how things are done , you must go completely off topic then start a new thread One must follow procedure !

But if applying such a model isnt that what a robust business plan is for ?

Stephen

[T.W.R]

Please quote where I said to throw Ohlins parts at a TT250 set of forks?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! Its real bright to misquote

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/120463-Yamaha-tt-250-front-fork-oil-level?p=1129688216#post1129688216

Linear wound springs is one of Ohlins treats and Rach Tech emulators is another of your's.

and "bring it into the modern world"..... that could be percieved a number of ways

[Robert Taylor]

:weird:Don't be such a narrow minded bigot :wacko:
business operating principles apply to any form of BUSINESS

Just think your beloved Ohlins wouldn't be where it is now if Yamaha hadn't brought into the company :yes:
you've just got a chip on your shoulder with me from what I said you not long after you arrived here on KB, and it still rings true........the almighty push for your franchise despite what a poster really wants to know.....a few weeks ago the guy with the TT250 yamaha wanting fork oil capacities for the bike and you charged in saying to throw ohlins parts at it :slap: the bike in the states where the poster was from would be worth nics...... real bright to throw ohlins at it :blink: sure the forks would be better but it'd show up all the deficiencies of a nigh on 30yr old trail bike....you don't care as long as you push your product

The reality is I bear no malice whatsoever with you. I cannot be bothered dredging through to find out who said what but whatever it was Ive lost no sleep. I dont recall meeting you personally ( not that I have the foggiest idea who you are and also place myself at a disadvantage in that respect )

I just happen to disagree with a few things that you have said and have challenged that, in fact there are a few things that you have said that I also agree with. But I certainly dont have a pin cushion modelled on you!!!

Linear fork springs and emulators are made by Race Tech and my beloved viking mates make nothing for that bike. Yes indeed most people would choose to limit their expenditure on a 30 year old trailbike, no argument with that mindset. But its also fair to point out that not all of us subscribe ( for example only! ) to a 1970s mentality of ''preload the springs with a few coins or washers and throw heavy oil in it'' You would actually be surprised at the number of people that actually are prepared to upspec the suspension ( or whatever ) on their seemingly worthless old bikes.
Just as one example I currently have a 75 RM250 in my workshop that Im about to custom build a set of Ohlins twin shocks for at a little over 2k, front fork internals upgrade at maybe a little under or a little over 1k. And also a 82 Maico that the guy initially took the cheap option with and installed a shock made in Thailand. The guy who sold it to him was ''pushing the product'' but it failed to deliver!!!!! It nearly killed him so hes now doing it properly and at both ends. So he probably thinks it wasnt too bright listening in the first place to the guy pushing the dodgy Thai made shocks.
These bikes have got value to the customers, so each to their own.
There does seem to be a bit of ''sport'' going on in this forum of condemning people who are prepared to spend the time and money to do things properly. Each to their own.

[Robert Taylor]

already am, buy from overseas if cheaper

read the any in my post, the only assumption is you assuming that I'm saying there are unfair margins.

I would consider people feeling they are getting a crap deal locally so buying internationally a PR issue. Of course that business principal may not apply to your industry either...

How about some common sense?

Basic business principles apply to any business ( who said otherwise or misinterpreted to pick an argument? ) But each and every business has its own peculiarities that you adapt to.

I happen to purchase McDonalds every now and then, usually only for convenience and lack of time while in transit or suchlike. I know what Im expecting, how cheap it is and that its not going to be a culinary delight. They have their place and I never said otherwise to anyone.

And Ive said it before, not every bike shop is going to give you a crap deal.

As for my own specialised industry yes there are price pressures from overseas but we largely meet that and also provide something the overseas internet resellers cannot, local service, backup and knowledge of our roading and track conditions. From that I believe we largely derive good PR that I personally am proud of.

Ive challenged many things you have said simply because like a few others on here I have been in the trade a very long time and know what the issues are, abundantly. If I personally had blinkers on I wouldnt have adapted as I have and continue to do so. In 30 years that i have been in the trade there has been one big constant, CONSTANT CHANGE. I also happen to agree with a number of your grizzles as they are justified, and why wouldnt I?

[bogan]

And Ive said it before, not every bike shop is going to give you a crap deal.
but if people think you are going to, thats a PR issue init?


As for my own specialised industry yes there are price pressures from overseas but we largely meet that and also provide something the overseas internet resellers cannot, local service, backup and knowledge of our roading and track conditions. From that I believe we largely derive good PR that I personally am proud of.

yes in your specialised suspension industry, which I don't think I've refered to once. For parts I don't care about any of that stuff.


Ive challenged many things you have said simply because like a few others on here I have been in the trade a very long time and know what the issues are, abundantly. If I personally had blinkers on I wouldnt have adapted as I have and continue to do so. In 30 years that i have been in the trade there has been one big constant, CONSTANT CHANGE. I also happen to agree with a number of your grizzles as they are justified, and why wouldnt I?
And thats what got on my nerves, you were asked to keep your opinions to yourself so there could be a brainstorming session, and when you couldn't manage that, you only gave vague reasons to support your negativity.

[Robert Taylor]

but if people think you are going to, thats a PR issue init?

yes in your specialised suspension industry, which I don't think I've refered to once. For parts I don't care about any of that stuff.

And thats what got on my nerves, you were asked to keep your opinions to yourself so there could be a brainstorming session, and when you couldn't manage that, you only gave vague reasons to support your negativity.


No, your perception of negativity, a reaction to stating some home truths and realities. Its entirely possible and indeed very desirable to have a positive outlook but it also rather helps to have both feet on the ground.
Its a crime to disagree????

[bogan]

No, your perception of negativity, a reaction to stating some home truths and realities. Its entirely possible and indeed very desirable to have a positive outlook but it also rather helps to have both feet on the ground.
Its a crime to disagree????

of course its my perception, whos else would it be.

course its not a crime to disagree, but if you repeatedly do so without significant supporting arguments in a place you have been asked to leave, you look like a bit of a douche. That also is my perception.

[Robert Taylor]

of course its my perception, whos else would it be.

course its not a crime to disagree, but if you repeatedly do so without significant supporting arguments in a place you have been asked to leave, you look like a bit of a douche. That also is my perception.

And I thought I had an argumentative disposition....................................... .....I think you should put up by starting a venture like you have outlined and just prove how wrong we who have been in the industry a long time really are. Preferably do it with your own money though.

[bogan]

And I thought I had an argumentative disposition....................................... .....I think you should put up by starting a venture like you have outlined and just prove how wrong we who have been in the industry a long time really are. Preferably do it with your own money though.

How is that argumentative, I merely explained my position. And as explained before I have no desire to start up such a venture, it was just interesting to think about how it could be done, kinda like the thread title aye ;)

[Conquiztador]

And I thought I had an argumentative disposition....................................... .....I think you should put up by starting a venture like you have outlined and just prove how wrong we who have been in the industry a long time really are. Preferably do it with your own money though.

No Robert. Nobody in this thread has to prove anything. That is not what this is (was) about. It was very clearly about ideas, brainstroming. Not about reality. You are beating the same tired message over and over. We have understoood you. Thank you. Running a bike business in NZ is not for thoose who expect to carve gold with a knife. But see, nobody here did belive that to be the case. To keep on telling us: "It is fucking hard, you guys have no idea" is not what this thread is about. As it clearly is what you want us to know, how hard you work and how decent you are, why not start a thread re that?

This thread is, and always was. about what the customer would like. Not about how stupid we, the customers, are who do not realise that we can not have cheaper bits, better service, faster deliveries. In this thread we dont give a shit re reality, re some fucking volcano that stops airfreight, or that the bits that take 2 months to arrive are superior to Korean ones that are here inside 2 days.

I do not think you realise that you are doing your self no service by posting these tired posts on KB, and with your company details attached. Wonder what the result would be if I started a thread asking how many potential customers you have alienated with your ramblings???

[bogan]

No Robert. Nobody in this thread has to prove anything. That is not what this is (was) about. It was very clearly about ideas, brainstroming. Not about reality. You are beating the same tired message over and over. We have understoood you. Thank you. Running a bike business in NZ is not for thoose who expect to carve gold with a knife. But see, nobody here did belive that to be the case. To keep on telling us: "It is fucking hard, you guys have no idea" is not what this thread is about. As it clearly is what you want us to know, how hard you work and how decent you are, why not start a thread re that?

This thread is, and always was. about what the customer would like. Not about how stupid we, the customers, are who do not realise that we can not have cheaper bits, better service, faster deliveries. In this thread we dont give a shit re reality, re some fucking volcano that stops airfreight, or that the bits that take 2 months to arrive are superior to Korean ones that are here inside 2 days.

I do not think you realise that you are doing your self no service by posting these tired posts on KB, and with your company details attached. Wonder what the result would be if I started a thread asking how many potential customers you have alienated with your ramblings???

Exactly the points I was trying to get across :yes: If only you had threatened that when he first started butting in :laugh:, would have been a good thread then.

[Morcs]

I woulda thought running a bike shop in NZ would be about the lifestyle aspect rather than profits. Even if you only make a decent enough wage to make a reasonable living, whilst going to work doing something you love, would be the reason you would do it.

[DMNTD]

I woulda thought running a bike shop in NZ would be about the lifestyle aspect rather than profits. Even if you only make a decent enough wage to make a reasonable living, whilst going to work doing something you love, would be the reason you would do it.

Heh! Ironically it has almost put me off bikes several times.
Imagine being in lust with some super model...then imagine being around her 55+hours per week.
I can assure you that the bitch would get 'old' real quick!

[T.W.R]

The reality is I bear no malice whatsoever with you. I cannot be bothered dredging through to find out who said what but whatever it was Ive lost no sleep. I dont recall meeting you personally (not that I have the foggiest idea who you are and also place myself at a disadvantage in that respect ).

No malice here either, but the general tone of responses to valid posts put up you attempt to place yourself above the poster you're replying to....your reply to the explaination of McDonalds business ethic litterally was saying that the approach had no bearing in relation to this industry....supply & demand in both respects & marketing are exactly the same.....product for the consumer and competing for market share are the same no matter what the product




I just happen to disagree with a few things that you have said and have challenged that, in fact there are a few things that you have said that I also agree with. But I certainly dont have a pin cushion modelled on you!!!.

Ditto


Linear fork springs and emulators are made by Race Tech and my beloved viking mates make nothing for that bike. Yes indeed most people would choose to limit their expenditure on a 30 year old trailbike, no argument with that mindset. But its also fair to point out that not all of us subscribe ( for example only! ) to a 1970s mentality of ''preload the springs with a few coins or washers and throw heavy oil in it'' You would actually be surprised at the number of people that actually are prepared to upspec the suspension ( or whatever ) on their seemingly worthless old bikes..

:scratch: who said anything about that mentality....see this is one of the issues I have with you....you try to belittle another poster by taking the negative perception approach and using it as your arguement for what you believe is the positive.

The reality is a persons bike is their bike, their ride, & their joy be it 1yr old or 50yrs old. Some people are realistic about their expenditure on their bikes and it's their right to do so, some people can afford to spend lots & some can't and then there's a majority who sit in the middle ground aswell.
Most know what they'd like to fit to their bikes and some have no idea. Some will understand the benefits of better components & make full use of that extra bit of quality....there's also a lot who can afford the top line items and readily throw these bits at their bikes and still couldn't ride a hot knife into butter to save themselves.
Some people have budgets they have to work around, know what they'd like to have but are realistic about what they can afford and what benefits they'll actually achieve from their expenditure.
Once apon a time Motorcycling was about Motorcycling....now days it's more a fashion statement with all the big name bling items that the market pushes on the general motorcycling populous.


Just as one example I currently have a 75 RM250 in my workshop that Im about to custom build a set of Ohlins twin shocks for at a little over 2k, front fork internals upgrade at maybe a little under or a little over 1k. And also a 82 Maico that the guy initially took the cheap option with and installed a shock made in Thailand. The guy who sold it to him was ''pushing the product'' but it failed to deliver!!!!! It nearly killed him so hes now doing it properly and at both ends. So he probably thinks it wasnt too bright listening in the first place to the guy pushing the dodgy Thai made shocks.
These bikes have got value to the customers, so each to their own.
There does seem to be a bit of ''sport'' going on in this forum of condemning people who are prepared to spend the time and money to do things properly. Each to their own.

Be honest here...these examples are both VMX bikes and completely evident from the context of the paragraph both are intended to used as such....pretty different to a guy just asking what fork oil & what capacity to put in a trailbike.

It's dealing with each customer as an individual and dealing with their individual needs and respecting what they want, advice can be given freely but advice in the wrong form can manipulate the individual too

[Robert Taylor]

No Robert. Nobody in this thread has to prove anything. That is not what this is (was) about. It was very clearly about ideas, brainstroming. Not about reality. You are beating the same tired message over and over. We have understoood you. Thank you. Running a bike business in NZ is not for thoose who expect to carve gold with a knife. But see, nobody here did belive that to be the case. To keep on telling us: "It is fucking hard, you guys have no idea" is not what this thread is about. As it clearly is what you want us to know, how hard you work and how decent you are, why not start a thread re that?

This thread is, and always was. about what the customer would like. Not about how stupid we, the customers, are who do not realise that we can not have cheaper bits, better service, faster deliveries. In this thread we dont give a shit re reality, re some fucking volcano that stops airfreight, or that the bits that take 2 months to arrive are superior to Korean ones that are here inside 2 days.

I do not think you realise that you are doing your self no service by posting these tired posts on KB, and with your company details attached. Wonder what the result would be if I started a thread asking how many potential customers you have alienated with your ramblings???

Not too many by the look of it given the workload. And I reject much of what you have said as I was merely infusing some reality into some ideas that ( to be kind ) were a little bit off the wall.
One big point of difference is that while saying exactly what I think I put my name to it.

[Robert Taylor]

No malice here either, but the general tone of responses to valid posts put up you attempt to place yourself above the poster you're replying to....your reply to the explaination of McDonalds business ethic litterally was saying that the approach had no bearing in relation to this industry....supply & demand in both respects & marketing are exactly the same.....product for the consumer and competing for market share are the same no matter what the product





Ditto



:scratch: who said anything about that mentality....see this is one of the issues I have with you....you try to belittle another poster by taking the negative perception approach and using it as your arguement for what you believe is the positive.

The reality is a persons bike is their bike, their ride, & their joy be it 1yr old or 50yrs old. Some people are realistic about their expenditure on their bikes and it's their right to do so, some people can afford to spend lots & some can't and then there's a majority who sit in the middle ground aswell.
Most know what they'd like to fit to their bikes and some have no idea. Some will understand the benefits of better components & make full use of that extra bit of quality....there's also a lot who can afford the top line items and readily throw these bits at their bikes and still couldn't ride a hot knife into butter to save themselves.
Some people have budgets they have to work around, know what they'd like to have but are realistic about what they can afford and what benefits they'll actually achieve from their expenditure.
Once apon a time Motorcycling was about Motorcycling....now days it's more a fashion statement with all the big name bling items that the market pushes on the general motorcycling populous.



Be honest here...these examples are both VMX bikes and completely evident from the context of the paragraph both are intended to used as such....pretty different to a guy just asking what fork oil & what capacity to put in a trailbike.

It's dealing with each customer as an individual and dealing with their individual needs and respecting what they want, advice can be given freely but advice in the wrong form can manipulate the individual too

And thats exactly what we do, deal with each customers requirements. With respect to that TT250 guy I was merely pointing out that he could make those forks a LOT better, his choice in the end.
We had a guy several months back who wanted to spend over 2k on his GB500 with custom build Ohlins piggybacks and fork upgrade. We didnt manipulate him into it as we tried to sell him cheaper single tube shocks. His bike was worth 2k, if lucky. Each to their own.
How about those that ''can ride to save themselves'' and can afford those ''blingy bits'' that god forbid actually improve function?

[R-Soul]

Heh! Ironically it has almost put me off bikes several times.
Imagine being in lust with some super model...then imagine being around her 55+hours per week.
I can assure you that the bitch would get 'old' real quick!

heh yeah like they say: "It doesn't matter how hot she is - someone, somewhere, is putting up with her shit!"

[steve_t]

heh yeah like they say: "It doesn't matter how hot she is - someone, somewhere, is sick of putting up with her shit!"

Fixed it for ya ;)

[lakedaemonian]

As predicted this has turned into yet another "Stupid customers don't deserve the industry" thread.

What I already get from the bike shops and really like:

Friendly service
So far a good follow up rate on the commitments that are important to me
Occasional use of the steam cleaner
Coffee when I just pop in for a chat and they are quiet
Organised rides and events than I am invited to
Being told by the workshop of issues that are likely to crop up with my bike in the near future
Dealing with the same guy that I bought a bike off 25 years ago
I was impressed when buying gear for The Moll that there was a biker chick working there that could understand all the chick stuff


What I'd really like to see:
Much more selection of gear, most places seem to stock entry level and top end stuff, with not much middle of the range. I'm not worried about it being in my size, just being able to look at it, feel it, gauge the quality etc. Then with a tape measure check the size and get the right one in, within a timeframe of say a week or two. Before I go in I will already have an idea of online prices and if the shop doesn't compare I will say so there and then, rather than sneakily taking the measurements etc and ordering online as suggested by some on here.

What I really don't like:
Being looked down on by twerps in "status" shops
Being ignored while staff & mates huddle in the corner with coffee (I know I said earlier i like coffee & a chat, and I will always expect the staff to leave their chat and deal with a customer 1st - if they get busy actually making a living I will finish my coffee quietly and go, perhaps putting in a good word for them to the prospective buyer as I leave)
Cheap crap with a status symbol logo on it that costs twice as much as something decent.

Having said all of that I'm planning a trip to the states at end of year, does anybody know of a huge ass motorcycle superstore, (kind of like the bass pro shops, but for motorcycles, if anyone knows them) preferably in the South?

About an hour's drive from the Los Angeles Airport is a place called Bert's:

http://www.bertsmegamall.com/

I think they are the biggest non-Harley dealer in the US, possibly the world....I visited last July to see if there was anything to learn.

When I went there in July, 2009 the only time a staff member approached to talk to me was to tell me to stop taking photographs of their Honda Fury. :(

Down south, the only one's I know of are Harley-centric dealerships such as:

Bruce Rossmeyer Chain of HD Dealerships:

http://www.brucerossmeyer.com/

Barnett's HD in Texas:

http://www.barnettharley.com/


I hear ya on the Bass Pro shops...I went to the one in Nashville in 2007...not their biggest store, but the staff and selection was awesome...it was Christmas in July.

On the other hand, I was in Bass Pro mega Store on the way to the Denver Airport last year and the only things I wanted (fairly high volume generic items like .223 & .308 bore snakes and a popular common Leupold VX scope) I was told, we're out of stock by not very helpful staff.

The lesson I learned there is biggest definitely doesn't make best :)

I hope you have a great trip.....please let us know about your experiences in US motorbike dealership upon your return.

I think this is a great thread...while there may be a couple customer misconceptions about the current structure of NZ motorbike dealers....it's feedback and perceptions that aren't always easy to elicit from customers.

So rather than jumping in with my own industry opinion, I'm just going to see if there's anything I can pick up on for my business to mull over.

Funnily enough, a couple of the items mentioned so far provide some additional anecodatal support for an internal project we have been working on.

Customer/industry feedback that isn't emotionally charged, but well framed and considered in opinion is always a good thing. :)

Just my 0.02c

[R-Soul]

Fixed it for ya ;)

right - what he said... :2thumbsup

edit: it loses the effect somewhat without a really hot girl posing semi naked - so that you can take a step back from looking at her and think about it...

[Morcs]

Heh! Ironically it has almost put me off bikes several times.
Imagine being in lust with some super model...then imagine being around her 55+hours per week.
I can assure you that the bitch would get 'old' real quick!

I do know what you mean.
I quit one of my hobbies as i do it full time as a job now... lol

[aff-man]

Sourcing parts for my ZX6RR
parts from a shop in the states $450 NZD which includes shipping.
Parts from shop here $740.....

If the kwaka shop in the states has a mark up and i'm paying for pretty good freight (as in they could get cheaper freight for bulk orders) they are making a lot of cream..

[Robert Taylor]

Sourcing parts for my ZX6RR
parts from a shop in the states $450 NZD which includes shipping.
Parts from shop here $740.....

If the kwaka shop in the states has a mark up and i'm paying for pretty good freight (as in they could get cheaper freight for bulk orders) they are making a lot of cream..

No thats an assumption, I know what dealer markup is on genuine parts. Its okay but nothing sensational. Dont blame the dealer!

Now rework your $US costings as if the current exchange rate was 60 cents and maybe even 55 cents.

Have you factored any clearance charges at the border and gst? Probably at that dollar value it wouldnt be accorded those, thats pretty unfair when commercial operators always incur those costs.

[aff-man]

Yes I know there are clearance charges etc etc and I'm sure the Kwaka store in America would have to pay them too.Although I honestly don't know if they are vastly different.
These are genuine parts I am getting. And I'm not saying its the end dealers fault but when the goods change hands several times and everyone is taking a cut it does make me want to click buy now on the comp instead of going to the local store.... which then if I was in said local store might do an impulse buy and get a new lid or some fancy stickers etc etc hell maybe even a new bike.

Just saying a perfect store would have competative enough prices for me to get off my ass and go pick something up rather than buying from overseas.

*P.s. sent you guys 2 emails now about my RSV Mille R suspension still no word? *

[Robert Taylor]

but if people think you are going to, thats a PR issue init?

yes in your specialised suspension industry, which I don't think I've refered to once. For parts I don't care about any of that stuff.

And thats what got on my nerves, you were asked to keep your opinions to yourself so there could be a brainstorming session, and when you couldn't manage that, you only gave vague reasons to support your negativity.

Actually, Im not going to let your attempt at ridicule lie unchallenged. I know that Ive got the long experience of the industry as have a number of my contemporaries and I resolutely stand behind what I have said. And have also had the guts to do so with my name to it. That might be counterproductive to some viewpoints but Ive never been afraid to state who I am and what Im about, often that leads to business.
You sir have the answers ( you think ) And you may have some good answers but the reality is youve got little idea of the complex realities and ''games of chess'' that occur everyday in a typical motorcycle business.
Parts supply issues, too many different parts variations, the expectation that parts will be available off the shelf right now or even yesterday. Warranty issues, technical problem solving issues, poor reimbursement rate for warranty correction. Customers who string you out for payment., cash flow. Just to name a few.
Thats not being negative at all, thats reality and its easy to see why staff ( especially mechanics ) get ground down because nothing is ever as simple as it seems or as the customer thinks.
You use the word vague, well the reality is its actually difficult to put into words the number of complex day to day realities that make it a lot harder to put money into the till than you realise. im not going to expend several hours and several zillion words to elaborate just to rattle off all the scenarios and pitfalls that Ive encountered over the years. Industry people who may read this will know exactly where I am coming from, more than a few times Ive witnessed people who were going to shake the industry and they came unstuck pretty quickly. YOU HAVE TO WORK IN IT TO UNDERSTAND WHATS INVOLVED.
Yes this is an ideas thread and some of the ideas put forward have been great, but ideas also have to be tempered with realty and what is also economically possible. The very highest percentage of motorcycle dealers in NZ are in fact undercapitalised, have you also considered that harsh reality?

[bogan]

Actually, Im not going to let your attempt at ridicule lie unchallenged. I know that Ive got the long experience of the industry as have a number of my contemporaries and I resolutely stand behind what I have said. And have also had the guts to do so with my name to it. That might be counterproductive to some viewpoints but Ive never been afraid to state who I am and what Im about, often that leads to business.
You sir have the answers ( you think ) And you may have some good answers but the reality is youve got little idea of the complex realities and ''games of chess'' that occur everyday in a typical motorcycle business.
Parts supply issues, too many different parts variations, the expectation that parts will be available off the shelf right now or even yesterday. Warranty issues, technical problem solving issues, poor reimbursement rate for warranty correction. Customers who string you out for payment., cash flow. Just to name a few.
Thats not being negative at all, thats reality and its easy to see why staff ( especially mechanics ) get ground down because nothing is ever as simple as it seems or as the customer thinks.
You use the word vague, well the reality is its actually difficult to put into words the number of complex day to day realities that make it a lot harder to put money into the till than you realise. im not going to expend several hours and several zillion words to elaborate just to rattle off all the scenarios and pitfalls that Ive encountered over the years. Industry people who may read this will know exactly where I am coming from, more than a few times Ive witnessed people who were going to shake the industry and they came unstuck pretty quickly. YOU HAVE TO WORK IN IT TO UNDERSTAND WHATS INVOLVED.
Yes this is an ideas thread and some of the ideas put forward have been great, but ideas also have to be tempered with realty and what is also economically possible. The very highest percentage of motorcycle dealers in NZ are in fact undercapitalised, have you also considered that harsh reality?

attemp at ridicule? dude, take a chill pill. I called it how I see it, I take this piss every now and then, but attempt at ridicule is a bit strong.

Yes I do feel your responses are vague, as they always relate back to your parts/mechanics industry, for instance what I proposed required very little capital at all. The scheme I outlined is actually different to what you do. And outlining problems that don't even apply to such as scheme (parts available right now, part payments, tech problem soving) I do consider negative

[Robert Taylor]

Yes I know there are clearance charges etc etc and I'm sure the Kwaka store in America would have to pay them too.Although I honestly don't know if they are vastly different.
These are genuine parts I am getting. And I'm not saying its the end dealers fault but when the goods change hands several times and everyone is taking a cut it does make me want to click buy now on the comp instead of going to the local store.... which then if I was in said local store might do an impulse buy and get a new lid or some fancy stickers etc etc hell maybe even a new bike.

Just saying a perfect store would have competative enough prices for me to get off my ass and go pick something up rather than buying from overseas.

*P.s. sent you guys 2 emails now about my RSV Mille R suspension still no word? *







What happens is there will be no tax on an export shipment out of the States ( somebody correct me if Im wrong ) as there would be no gst for an export order sent out of NZ. So if no clearnce and gst is charged at our border then you are doing rather well, thats part of the difference.
US suppliers are also able to bulk buy and get much better buy prices than distributors here, who also incur much heavier freight costs for shipping of containers etc. Stock turn is also much lower here and that has to be factored. Another point of difference.
US suppliers also operate on very slender margins and very high turnover, a pipe dream for NZ distributors. I also believe a lot of their labour may be very cheap ( Mexican immigrants etc who will work long hours at low pay) Compliance costs and government taxes may either be lower or the economy of scale makes their reality less harsh.

There may be a few issues that balloon the end price that could be challenged but I believe that the perception of the ''big bad NZ distributors'' is an emotive one that is not in command of the full realities and facts. Certainly not fully deserved.

The strong exchange rate is also making offshore purchases currently attractive.

Having said all this I priced some genuine fork tubes with a NZ motorcycle distributor yesterday and thought youve got to be kidding!

E MAILS. During the day we have so much work I only sporadically reply to the very most urgent e-mails and then attempt to draft replies during the evening. When I get home at night Ill spend a little bit of time on here first because there are PMs to invariably answer and for some ( perverse ) ''light relief'' Ill spend a little bit of time in the forums.

KB in fact creates a lot of business for me, in spite of my habit of not being afraid to say what I think!

I am in receipt of your e-mails and have a big pile that I have ''bought home with me''. Yours requires a detailed answer ( that I think you will appreciate ) and you will have a reply tommorrow morning.

[Robert Taylor]

attemp at ridicule? dude, take a chill pill. I called it how I see it, I take this piss every now and then, but attempt at ridicule is a bit strong.

Yes I do feel your responses are vague, as they always relate back to your parts/mechanics industry, for instance what I proposed required very little capital at all. The scheme I outlined is actually different to what you do. And outlining problems that don't even apply to such as scheme (parts available right now, part payments, tech problem soving) I do consider negative

Yes what you propose is a little different but would still be beset by problems that you dont foresee. Whatever capital you think is required its not enough. That is good advice and any accountant or experienced businessman worth his salt would tell you something similiar.
You can choose to react however so you wish but I know Im right on this.

[bogan]

Yes what you propose is a little different but would still be beset by problems that you dont foresee. Whatever capital you think is required its not enough. That is good advice and any accountant or experienced businessman worth his salt would tell you something similiar.
You can choose to react however so you wish but I know Im right on this.

exactly the vagueness i was refering to earlier. The point I'm trying to make here is if you are going to knock someones idea or ways, I like to hear some decent justification. For example, people on this site knock the NZ motorcycle industry, rightly or wrongly there is often no justification, that pisses you off (fair enuf too) just as you have pissed off many of us in this thread.

[Robert Taylor]

exactly the vagueness i was refering to earlier. The point I'm trying to make here is if you are going to knock someones idea or ways, I like to hear some decent justification. For example, people on this site knock the NZ motorcycle industry, rightly or wrongly there is often no justification, that pisses you off (fair enuf too) just as you have pissed off many of us in this thread.

Frankly what you have said is not going to make me lose any sleep. This forum is by no means the be all and end all of everything that happens in motorcycling in NZ. The nature of forums is that all too often they can attract a few people who have dogmatic views that are uncompromising of being challenged and dont accept that there are two sides to a story. The worst current example is the police bashing that is going on. If a few people get peeved off by being challenged then so be it. But also there are a good many people on here that are genuine and mild of manner, I enjoy conversing with those people.

Like I said earlier Im not going to waste hours and hours writing screeds of justification just to please you. I could do it but Id rather do something productive that is going to keep my customers happy and my balance sheet in the black. If hard work is a foreign concept to you then I recommend trying it some time, it might alter your view of the world. And in any event I tried to make you understand that you cannot neccessarily put all the issues in writing, that you have to experience it. Clearly I failed.

Now Ive got more customers to reply to and thats what Ive been doing for most of the night.

[bogan]

I'm no stranger to hard work, and I like my view of the world very much as it is, open minded and positive sums it up. Fair enuf that you have your own work to do and can't explain to me why such proposals are doomed to failure, though I'm a little confused as to why you have spent so many post here condemning them with such repetitive answers already if that is the case. You have your opinion that it's doomed to failure, and I have mine that you don't actually have any solid reasons to back that up.

[T.W.R]

Yes I know there are clearance charges etc etc and I'm sure the Kwaka store in America would have to pay them too.Although I honestly don't know if they are vastly different.
These are genuine parts I am getting. And I'm not saying its the end dealers fault but when the goods change hands several times and everyone is taking a cut it does make me want to click buy now on the comp instead of going to the local store.... which then if I was in said local store might do an impulse buy and get a new lid or some fancy stickers etc etc hell maybe even a new bike.

Just saying a perfect store would have competative enough prices for me to get off my ass and go pick something up rather than buying from overseas.

*P.s. sent you guys 2 emails now about my RSV Mille R suspension still no word? *

Kawasaki America and Lyntech holdings Ltd are two vastly different operations :yes:
You mention buying a Bike from off shore........:pinch: we tried attempting that when KDX200s were finishing up and we weren't able to source through Lyntech so we found a US dealership who had them in stock in good numbers....we made lyntech aware of this and were abruptly told NO do not proceed or there'll be issues and it would have been worse if we'd got them in then Lyntech had been made aware even though we'd brought these bikes out of our own expenditure.

[T.W.R]

Now Ive got more customers to reply to and thats what Ive been doing for most of the night.

Honestly do you have a certain quota to fill to keep Ohlins technical support on board and maintain their requirements to remain a authorised dealer? Similar to Honda dealers have to sell a certain amount of roadbikes per year to gain & retain the Honda Red Carpet Dealership rights ??

[Robert Taylor]

Honestly do you have a certain quota to fill to keep Ohlins technical support on board and maintain their requirements to remain a authorised dealer? Similar to Honda dealers have to sell a certain amount of roadbikes per year to gain & retain the Honda Red Carpet Dealership rights ??

Nothing in writing to that effect no, you just do your very best and adapt to the market pressures as they occur. Right now the $US isnt helping but its a case of ''bending over'' and taking it. Our margins are consequently very thin to as much as is possible shut out the parrallell importing and you work harder and longer for less return.
I have to say that as the Ohlins distributor for NZ we enjoy a very good relationship with the factory. Note that I am talking distributors where you have mentioned it in the context of dealers, but theres much less distinction now!
If you are a motorcycle dealer selling one of the big brands I think you are very much a serf to the distributors requirements, suiting their needs but all too often negatively impacting on your profitability. In turn the distributors are often serfs to the factories. Thats cynical but its the reality.

[T.W.R]

Nothing in writing to that effect no, you just do your very best and adapt to the market pressures as they occur. Right now the $US isnt helping but its a case of ''bending over'' and taking it. Our margins are consequently very thin to as much as is possible shut out the parrallell importing and you work harder and longer for less return.
I have to say that as the Ohlins distributor for NZ we enjoy a very good relationship with the factory. Note that I am talking distributors where you have mentioned it in the context of dealers, but theres much less distinction now!
.

So you've reduced your margins to keep competitive with the current economic enviroment?



If you are a motorcycle dealer selling one of the big brands I think you are very much a serf to the distributors requirements, suiting their needs but all too often negatively impacting on your profitability. In turn the distributors are often serfs to the factories. Thats cynical but its the reality.

We tried taking on a third brand for our farming market because kawasaki had a huge hole in their line up that we could have filled with the acquired brand but were told a very curt NO because it'd conflict with kawasaki:yes:

[T.W.R]

Nothing in writing to that effect no, you just do your very best and adapt to the market pressures as they occur. Right now the $US isnt helping but its a case of ''bending over'' and taking it. Our margins are consequently very thin to as much as is possible shut out the parrallell importing and you work harder and longer for less return.


Hope Scorp reads this :whistle:

life was easier when you were CKE wasn't it

:corn:

[PeeJay]

Yes what you propose is a little different but would still be beset by problems that you dont foresee. Whatever capital you think is required its not enough. That is good advice and any accountant or experienced businessman worth his salt would tell you something similiar.
You can choose to react however so you wish but I know Im right on this.

Now that is the truth, the first commandment of any new business. And any old business.

Probably the first important business lesson I learnt many many years ago, when ideas and reality meet, you have probably run out of money.

[Robert Taylor]

So you've reduced your margins to keep competitive with the current economic enviroment?



We tried taking on a third brand for our farming market because kawasaki had a huge hole in their line up that we could have filled with the acquired brand but were told a very curt NO because it'd conflict with kawasaki:yes:

Essentially yes margins are squeezed and that has neccessitated losing one staff member. That I believe is a common scenario in many businesses within NZ given the factors we have all been haggling about.

Years ago we had three franchises at one stage, the most powerful of those brands made us make a choice to drop one of them.

[Scorp]

Hope Scorp reads this :whistle:

You'll be happy I did then :msn-wink:

And I'd like to point out that there's a big difference between margins being squeezed by external factors, and voluntarily reducing ones own margin. Looks like Robert's are being squeezed by external factors. In that kind of situation, you only really have two choices - reduce costs (which Robert has been forced to do), or increase prices (a tactic that can sometimes work successfully if you can add value at the same time).

Both are steps which are designed to 'increase' margin, not reduce it. Robert has not followed a policy of 'reducing' his margin. On the contrary, he has responded to an external threat by attempting to 'increase' his margins, through cutting costs.

A quick return to the McDonald's example given before:

McDonalds has maintained an operating profit margin of around 24% for the last few decades. Something worth thinking about when you bite into your next Big Mac. Currently, McD's operating margin is a very healthy 25%, despite the recession. They are not reducing margin. They are maintaining it - as this article shows (http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/McDonald's_(MCD)/Bulls). Flick back a couple of pages and you'll see that I said: "A successful business will maintain margins if possible."

Here's a quote from the above mentioned article:


Who says that you cannot expand profits in a recession? Indeed, McDonald’s is maintaining operating margins in excess of 25% and a net margin of 18%. (http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/McDonald's_(MCD)/Bulls)

Plus, McDonalds operating profit margins are considerably higher than their competitors. These are operating profit figures for 2007 (http://www.lexingtontriviabowl.com/id101.html).

McDonalds = 24.35%
Burger King = 13.83%
YUM* Group = 12.66%

*YUM includes KFC, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell and Long John Silver.

Food for thought, aye? And an interesting choice of example for you to use to support your idea that it's good business practice to reduce margin.

Personally I think McDonald's margin is verging on obscene. As is their food.


And a word on the Walter A. Forbes example


Walter A. Forbes is someone that all the naysayers should investigate and someone Conquiztador should look at for inspiration: Walter A. Forbes is the founder of Comp-U-Card (CUC international Inc) a business that is exactly what has been invisaged here, Forbes had the seed of an idea in the late 70s and in the 80s made it happen. At the time of the case study I'm quoting from (1998) CUC International Inc had two dozen small operations servicing 68 million people and Forbes had just launched netMarket an electronic superstore offering 250000 brand name products. Against all the bollocks that was set towards his ideas & dreams he's the one laughing in the face of the dinosaurs that said it wouldn't work.
Well, he ain't laughing now. And I'm not sure he should really be much of an inspiration to anyone.

He's a crook.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Forbes
http://www.investmentfraudtimes.com/stock/3064.html

And then my final, final word on the subject of profit.

Personally, I think that capitalism (with all it's inherent layers of costs, margin, marketing, dealers, agents, wholesalers, retailers, shippers, shipping agents etc...) is an incredibly inefficient method of distributing goods and services to people. But it is the system we're currently living with. And if you're in business in this system, you have to play by its rules. And rule No. 1 is you have to make a profit to play.

I don't know what Ray Kroc's business philosophy was, but I doubt I share it. I run a small (very small) business. For me, and for most small business people, profit = food, fun and meeting family needs. No profit = shit life. Go back and read my posts and you'll spot the fact that I have never once said that profit is the "be all and end all" either of life, or of business.

All I have ever said, is that when one is in business, and if one wants to be successful at it... then operating profit/profitability... comes first... and all other good things follow.

It may be your dream to run a 100% ecologically sound tourism business...
Or the perfect bike shop...
Or the best blues bar in NZ...

But in order to achieve those fine ideals and live that good life... it is imperative that you trade at an operating profit. Doesn't have to be 24% like McDonalds, or even 12% like KFC. Doesn't even have to be 5%. So long you're profitable - and not losing money. Because in business (sadly) profit must come first. Dreams and ideals (a close) second. Arrange things the other way round, and your dreams will be very short lived.

I really, really hope that I have now made myself clear. Because I honestly doubt you disagree with me on this.

[dipshit]

If you are a motorcycle dealer selling one of the big brands I think you are very much a serf to the distributors requirements, suiting their needs but all too often negatively impacting on your profitability. In turn the distributors are often serfs to the factories. Thats cynical but its the reality.

And this is partly why I personally criticise the motorcycle industry in NZ as being stuck in the 80's from the perspective of a potential customer. Too many in the industry appear to be too self-involved in running their motorcycle business as the old boys network has demanded decade after decade, that they have lost touch with what the customers of today want.

[Robert Taylor]

And this is partly why I personally criticise the motorcycle industry in NZ as being stuck in the 80's from the perspective of a potential customer. Too many in the industry appear to be too self-involved in running their motorcycle business as the old boys network has demanded decade after decade, that they have lost touch with what the customers of today want.

In fairness this all harks back to the ( international ) manufacturers. They are never comfortable sharing showroom space with competing brands, and frankly I understand that. This is the same in every market, the trouble being that in NZ we have a tiny poulation base ( and frankly ) too many dealers.

[dipshit]

In fairness this all harks back to the ( international ) manufacturers. They are never comfortable sharing showroom space with competing brands, and frankly I understand that. This is the same in every market, the trouble being that in NZ we have a tiny poulation base ( and frankly ) too many dealers.


Apparently in the US they aren't so strict on that with multiple major manufacturers under one roof. And now in Australia they may be starting to do similar.

I don't think NZ especially can afford to cling to old business models.

[jasonu]

You will also find that a few business are running their workshop as a separate entity from their retail outlet (and the retail outlet has to pay for any work done by the workshop on retail items ie:bikes) and that the workshop has to sustain itself.

And its not costing $200 an hour.

That is how it works in the town I live in. It is almost like there is a bike dealers with a parts and accesories dept. and next door someone else is running a workshop business.