The chance of a lifetime: You are asked to start a bike shop. How should it be done? [Archive]

Robert Taylor

9th April 2010, 20:58

This place is filled with what a bike shop owner wants: CUSTOMERS!

We have all visited the places that get it soo fucking wrong. So wrong in fact that we will never go back!

Many of us (me included) have started threads re useless cunts not doing what we want.

Let's here tell the shop owners, and the ones who are planning to open one, what we, their customers, really expect!

What do you expect, want, prefer?
What do you hate?
What makes a good... no, a PERFECT shop?

And try to be serious here. After all, I recon that if someone on here is running a shop/planning to run one, he would love to know...

Id have little issue agreeing with the sentiments of what customers expect, as long as also they are not totally unreasonable expectations. Cynically.......itll be great if that new dealer can give me great deals, and if they go bust because of all the great deals then oh well....
The reality that I have witnessed in over 30 years in the trade is that I have seen an enormous amount of turnover of motorcycle dealers in that time. And more than a few who have started up on the premise ''those existing dealers dont know what they are doing, well show them!" More than a few of that ''more than a few'' came unstuck in short order because the reality is its a very complex business to be in. Moreover finding a complete ''set'' of the right staff is impossible. Staff can make or break you, if you pay big to get the right people you usually cannot afford them as the margins are often too tight to do better than break even.
I was a motorcycle dealer for 15 odd years and we made reasonable profit and kept most of our customers happy most of the time. But you just dont want to know the hours that I worked to keep a lid on everything. With the way the world has evolved Id have to say that Im very glad that I sold out when I did, it totally destroyed my passion for riding motorcycles and that has not come back. Lucky Ive got a passion for the specialist field I am in.

Robert Taylor

9th April 2010, 21:01

Firstly, parts sold as parts, not parts + shop overhead fees, they should come from bike sales and maintainance jobs. Can't really comment on maintance stuff as i do it all myself, no bloody overcharging for simple jobs springs to mind though. Courtesy bikes for when you get your wof done, maybe just a scooter if you're not a VIP.

Be my guest and start up a shop with that mentality. Ill lay odds on how long before you have to close the doors.
BTW not all motorcycle dealers overcharge

p.dath

9th April 2010, 21:05

I'd like shops to carry more parts. I don't mind paying a small premium when compared to ordering in from overseas.

I would also like parts departments to be open 7 days, even if the hours are reduced to half days on the weekend. It's sometimes hard trying to get something when they are only open when you work.
Maybe they could do a deal with a national chain like Repco or Supercheap Auto, and have them act as agents. They have to have the doors open anyway.

I would also like it if the staff acted like they wanted to help me, rather than doing me a favour by allowing me to buy what I was after.

On the whole, I've been pretty happy with my bike buying experiences from dealers.

Headbanger

9th April 2010, 21:05

Conquiztador

9th April 2010, 21:05

SMOKEU

9th April 2010, 21:08

Robert Taylor

9th April 2010, 21:16

Shops have to make a profit on parts.

However, they have no right to complain if people shop elsewhere due to a large price difference. If they have put the large margin on then its up to them to rethink their position, If its their supplier then its up to the shop to let them know and to source crap from elsewhere.

At no time is the customer at fault on any level for buying the best priced part.

Ok, how about when a ''customer'' walks into a shop and spends a lot of time trying on clothing, being helped by the staff , in the full knowledge that they are going to not buy it there ( despite being offered a deal ) but off the net?/ And then when there is a subsequent sizing or warranty issue taking it to the dealer and having the temerity to ask them to exchange or sort it out?
Hard to believe but it happens often. Cheapness often comes at a price.
I look after my customers if they are honest with me. If they are clearly using me they will get short shift.

Robert Taylor

9th April 2010, 21:18

98tls

9th April 2010, 21:20

Robert Taylor

9th April 2010, 21:23

Guys... Look at this as a brainstorming session. Please take your cynisism out of here. The "it won't work" is the old blinkers scenario. Keep an open mind.

What always surprises me is how shop owners are trying to tell the customer what he/she wants. And they have never asked....

Well the reality is ( as per my post ) many have looked at it with as you say ''blinkers off'' Many of those have failed, Ive seen it many times.
Yes there is much room for improvement and it so totally depends on people and those people having experience ( LOTS of it ) an articulate dis[position and deep product knowledge. Would you care to provide a list of people off the top of your head that can for starters fill those 3 neccessities?

98tls

9th April 2010, 21:25

Reasonable workshop rates would be a good start. None of this $80+ per hour bullshit. It's good if there are actually staff at the shop as well when it's open. I've been to a bike shop several times before when they were open, and not a staff member or customer in sight for at 15 minutes. I could have walked off with a nice Ducati and no one would have been there to stop me.
I have no problem paying big $ hourly rates if in return i get big $ service,for all my years mucking about with bikes theres plenty i cant do so go somewhere that i expect to pay (all things considered) big $ to get it done,at many places in my experiance it turns to shit the moment you walk in the door and ask the first question.No shit ive in the past had the unforgettable experiance of saying Bevel drive in a Ducati retailers establishment to see a blank/wtf/ive seen that word on a T-shirt look appear on the recipient of said words face.

Milts

9th April 2010, 21:26

To me (especially as someone pretty new to riding), it's all about customer service. You can get parts and gear online but it's not the same as the service you get in the shop. The shop I go to for service and for a new helmet when I needed one (most other gear bought online) was excellent for service and advice. I pay perhaps more for parts and oil than I would online, but not what I would consider unreasonable prices. Service also not overly cheap but not unreasonable.

But what really makes the difference is honest advice and customer service. Turnaround times are key - I don't want to drop my bike in for a service and wait a week.

Honest advice is also appreciated. I've had several situations where I have been told "look, we could do this, and charge you X amount, but you'd be better off doing it like this..." (and saved myself some money). Based on this, and other advice on what to purchase which has served me well, I'd never go anywhere else. I've always had excellent customer service at motorad, regardless of the fact that I'm not exactly a 'big spender' and am not about to buy a brand new bike off them now or anywhere in the near future. I think as long as customer expectations are reasonable, a combination of not unfair prices and excellent service and advice will get a bike shop a long way. A few staff members at motorad who have been very helpful and knowledgeable not once, but every time I've gone in, and go above and beyond what I would consider normal service, give me complete faith that when I go there I'm getting the right deal for me.

I think any bike business with focus like that will find it easy to get new customers, and keep them long term, while charging enough to keep the business running.

Conquiztador

9th April 2010, 21:29

So what does it cost per hour for the workshop doors just to be open? And Im not talking tin sheds with no tools, no training etc.

Hi Robert. You are not helping here... Can you please stay out from this thread.

SMOKEU

9th April 2010, 21:30

So what does it cost per hour for the workshop doors just to be open? And Im not talking tin sheds with no tools, no training etc.

I don't know, but I know a few very good, honest car mechanics who charge no more than $40/hour (including GST). Why should bike mechanics charge double what car mechanics charge?

Milts

9th April 2010, 21:36

I don't know, but I know a few very good, honest car mechanics who charge no more than $40/hour (including GST). Why should bike mechanics charge double what car mechanics charge?

Coz bikes are twice as much fun to have running nicely?

98tls

9th April 2010, 21:36

I don't know, but I know a few very good, honest car mechanics who charge no more than $40/hour (including GST). Why should bike mechanics charge double what car mechanics charge?

Reality is most bike mechanics are merely paid what they are by the owner of the establisment they work in (we all know that) who in turn has in most cases a lease,advertising blah blah blah to pay not to mention like the rest of us there mortgage/kids blah........will repeat i find no problem with there rates more the indifference/lack of knowledge/fuck-ups that go with it.

SMOKEU

9th April 2010, 21:37

Coz bikes are twice as much fun to have running nicely?

You have a point there....

Conquiztador

9th April 2010, 21:55

Thanks to the ones who have sofar contributd in the spirit this thread was intended: To tell the shop owners what we, the customer, wants. This will not be a rule or a law. It will be an eye opener (I hope) where you might learn something. Keep an open mind and leave the "it won't work" out.

So, what would I want from a bike shop?
- Service. Be treated like I was actually important!
- Knowledge. And if it is not there, the ablility to say "sorry, I do not know, but I will find out"
- Ability to find solutions to problems I have.
- Be prepared to explain to me what is wrong and what the options are.
- Do what they say they will do. No false promises!
- I would want them to make a living, and so I would be prepared to pay a markup on bits and a fair hourly rate.
- Get involved in the community. Be part of what goes on.

There, a start.

98tls

9th April 2010, 22:08

Bit of an afterthought but can we have some sales people with at least a degree of honesty ie awhile back i read a post on here from a rather prominent (in cyberspace anyway) motorcycle salesman that dismissed money as his reasoning for being in the business :killingme but rather the satisfaction of his customers satisfaction:innocent:no doubt thats currency in his world and the holder of his mortgage is completly happy.No doubt hes died of starvation then or theres a huge retainer.

Headbanger

9th April 2010, 22:15

I look after my customers if they are honest with me.

Rob, Its not about you, please don't try and make this thread about you, I went as far out of my way as possible to make my post as generic as possible. And I won't be replying to you again in this thread.

At least, I'll try not to, Lmfao.

CookMySock

9th April 2010, 22:35

I value the advice I get from my bike shop. Others would do well to emulate them. Yes, I rock on into their service department and pick their brains and go fix it myself. Half of the time the bike ends up on their table anyway and I don't even look at their hourly rate - I have no idea what it is and I don't care.

I think many business owners don't care about the income - they just want a lifestyle, and to the same end, so do I.

I go out of my way to support them, unless some part is a huge amount cheaper elsewhere, but if it's only a few dollars more I make sure they get the money.

I dread the day they might go out of business. I don't want that to happen.

Steve

bogan

9th April 2010, 22:44

So if you were to start up a bike shop, you would sell parts at cost, and provide your customers with a bike to use while you're doing a $30 WOF...?

How long do you think you would last? :blink:

not cost, but a similar price to what online shops sell parts for, get more business that way; shops give test rides for free anyway, why not while the wof is getting done? Scooters at least would be very helpful, ill ask my local if I can borrow a courtesy scooter next time, be interesting to see what they reckon!

bogan

9th April 2010, 22:55

Ok, how about when a ''customer'' walks into a shop and spends a lot of time trying on clothing, being helped by the staff , in the full knowledge that they are going to not buy it there ( despite being offered a deal ) but off the net?/ And then when there is a subsequent sizing or warranty issue taking it to the dealer and having the temerity to ask them to exchange or sort it out?
Hard to believe but it happens often. Cheapness often comes at a price.
I look after my customers if they are honest with me. If they are clearly using me they will get short shift.

thats exactly what i was meaning, don't put a huge margin on parts/gear, and people wont buy them elsewhere!

I realise there would still need to be a small margin on shop floor space required for the gear and parts etc, but small being the operative word.

Course then you would have to increase the prices in the workshop to compensate, but it would be interesting to see how much, obviously you would have more profit from increased gear and parts sales (shorterm before the others catch on), and the increase in workshop cost would be offset by the decrease in parts cost so job cost should stay about the same.

Owl

9th April 2010, 23:27

Hurrie

10th April 2010, 00:00

if you're gonna fix something on the bike and you find a problem somewhere else on the bike, i'd prefer to be told before you decide to start fixing that other problem so that when i go to pick up the bike i dont have to pay an extra freaking $200 for something that wasnt worth fixing!!

Grubber

10th April 2010, 07:17

My experience is that i get a great service from the bike salesman and a lousy service in the workshop. So what i do is buy the bike off the guy that gives me the great deal and take the thing elsewhere to get it fixed. Salesman is a good link to the workshop for warranty work as his reputation is on the line when it goes in. Generally i contact sales guy and he tees up workshop and lender bike for the day. Works out pretty good.
In a nutshell i think service will sell me every time and i don't mind paying a bit more for it.
As for parts>>>> I get them where i can get them cheaper but still don't forgo any quality if possible.
Yep SERVICE gets me every time.

The Baron

10th April 2010, 07:22

I would like to see shops look after the new and the young riders. Treat them with value now when they are starting out and they will stay for years and many bikes over the long term.

Snails pace

10th April 2010, 07:33

So, what would I want from a bike shop?
- Service. Be treated like I was actually important!
- Knowledge. And if it is not there, the ablility to say "sorry, I do not know, but I will find out"
- Ability to find solutions to problems I have.
- Be prepared to explain to me what is wrong and what the options are.
- Do what they say they will do. No false promises!
- I would want them to make a living, and so I would be prepared to pay a markup on bits and a fair hourly rate.
- Get involved in the community. Be part of what goes on.

There, a start.

The above are very important for me. Fortunately my local shop thinks the same. If they cannot deliver they say so. No bull no rubbish. My first bike i wanted to buy from them they could not deliver until the next shipment, said so and suggested to look other places. My 2nd bike I waited for them. Service, friendliness, honesty my big three. Happy to pay more for these. Was in Auckland recently looking for new helmet/boots and left after visiting many major shops with the feeling they were more into self image. Perhaps age and senility has something to do with me thinking this way.

MSTRS

10th April 2010, 08:36

Can I just say that although many people's experience in (bike)shops is that you are an inconvenience to the staff, when in fact you are the reason for their existence, sometimes you have to make the effort too...to 'get to know' them. Certainly works round these parts...

Ixion

10th April 2010, 10:54

Course then you would have to increase the prices in the workshop to compensate

That is an interesting point. I have long considered that trades in NZ (generally, not justbike or motor trade) heavily undercost their labour. Then rely on a 'profit' on parts, derived from a discount off a highly inflated retail price. This only works of course as long as the market is small enough and local enough tomaintain the cartel. That assumption broke with the Internet. Online shops realized they could buy at that discount, and resell for a good profit and make money, so long as they did not have to subsidize the labour deficit of a workshop. Hence, Internet purchasing.

The correct response to the internet would be to adjust the costing model to achieve full recovery of labour costs and burden, and charge parts out at cost plus a sensible margin .

If we assume the full prime cost of a mechanic to be $100000 per year ( I realize that they don't get paid that, but there are many other costs in the prime cost and it's a conveniently round number, not too inaccurate); and assume a 50% charge out rate ( in my experience anything greater relies on creative time sheet entries); and a 50% burden; then that means a true charge out rate of $200 an hourroughly. This is the real rate for mechanics time. Anyone charging much Lessie relying on subsidizing the workshop from other sources , usually part sales.

=cJ=

10th April 2010, 11:00

It's a little dumb thing, but I really like it when I walk into a shop and am greeted by my name.

I don't care how flash the shop looks in terms of decor/style/whatever, I guess as long as it's tidy.

I like it when I get a nice replacement bike while mine's in the shop (I got a nice M50 to play with last time, which was bloody mint!), and I really like texts to let me know how things are going if it's in there a few days, or if I'm waiting on a part.

I'd like all stuff to be available overnight (though I realise this is possibly impossibly...) so I'm not having to wait for a distributor somewhere elsewhere to sort their shit out, though again, if I'm being kept up to date with progress on an order, this isn't such an issue.

I guess I like to feel that the shop is working for me, and that I'm important to them.

Robert Taylor

10th April 2010, 13:19

Hi Robert. You are not helping here... Can you please stay out from this thread.

There was no intention to hijack the thread as such, so Ill say my piece and be done with it. I can see both sides of the story and there have been a couple of very good posts citing reasonable expectations of expecting friendly knowledgable staff etc and realistic prices. But there are also totally unrealistic expectations as follows:
1) $40 per hour charge out rates, is the guy that stated that living on Mars? Do the maths, pay the mechanic a minimum of $25 per hour then pay his acc levies etc on top of that, Kiwi saver,power, phones, gas plant rental, cleaning expendables, workshop plant, training budget , losses incurred with warranty claim reimbursements (ALWAYS ) etc etc etc. NET LOSS. Yes there are car mechanics here and there charging out at around $40 per hour and some bike mechanics but the most typical scenario is they may be operating out of home and ''tin sheds'' Nothing wrong with tin sheds but if a lot of these guys havent worked it out already ( when they get their accounts done ) they are doing little better than subsistence. But they are great guys! They will eek out a meagre living just to keep their customers happy!!! I WISH PEOPLE THAT POSTED ON HERE WOULD DO THEIR HOMEWORK AND ACTUALLY THINK BEFORE MAKING SUCH SIMPLISTIC STATEMENTS
2)STOCKING MORE PARTS, Nice thought but in such a small and fragmented economy stock turn is a whole lot less than in bigger economies and its easy to ''die with parts''. Too many models and too many parts. We want all the trappings of the western world but have only a tiny population to try and support such an appetite. Any accountant worth his salt will explain.
3) PRICES THE SAME AS ON THE NET. Heck Ive stated the reasons why this is largely difficult to achieve in MANY threads, does no-one read these or do they refuse to believe ( as an industry insider being brutally candid ) what I am saying. Big margins, yeah right!

This is in no way being negative, its just stating the realities of supply, demand and the very real difficulty of making a respectable profit.

BUT DONT LISTEN TO ME, IVE ONLY HAD 35 YEARS IN THE TRADE IN BOTH WHOLESALE AND RETAIL, I KNOW NOTHING.

There are ways and means but its threatening the traditional wholesale and retail etiquette, and to respond to other oversimplistic statements that have popped up every now and then dealers cannot deal directly with the manufacturers, manufacturers insist on having a distributor to handle distribution, profile, dealer network, advertising and technical backup in each appointed country.

The reality is there is a lot of internet purchasing currently happening especially from the States because their dollar is very weak, they have people to be able to justify low margins / high stock turn and theres a lot of discount dumping happening. And Our Government is not taxing everything coming into the country, which they damn well should be. OUR DOLLAR SHOULD BE A LOT WEAKER TO HELP OUR PRIMARY WEALTH PRODUCERS, the guys that can generate export returns and provide meaningful to help economic recovery

Perhaps Im old fashioned and one of the realities of being like that is having a concern for the long term health of the country. No apologies for that.

Headbanger

10th April 2010, 14:17

There are ways and means but its threatening the traditional wholesale and retail etiquette, and to respond to other oversimplistic statements that have popped up every now and then dealers cannot deal directly with the manufacturers, manufacturers insist on having a distributor to handle distribution, profile, dealer network, advertising and technical backup in each appointed country.

Market forces.

Resistance is futile.

Even for manufacturers, and layers of middlemen.

firefighter

10th April 2010, 14:34

Ok hopefully a new one for you.

Easy to get to with good parking. (May not be an issue if it's being opened in HB!) I wo'nt go near AMPS because of this. (oh and because of the dicks/bad attitude homos....i'm not the first to say it)

A big area to move around in. I hate going into poky little shops....so a decent sized store.

Lots of selection, the more shiny stuff the betterer.......ie. more than one type of helmet, heaps of different choices for stuff, gear, tank protectors, bags, expensive and good quality cheap gear, lubes etcetc, selection is so key for me.

Staff that do'nt "stare" at you or make you feel like an dork. (you know the young dick with ears guys you sometimes get) Just friendly without the attitude.

If you stock a Shoei helmet, you also stock iridium/tinted visors and pinlock etcetcetc that go with the helmet, or can source some in a reasonable timeframe. A lot can be said if you can post it locally for free too if it has to be ordered in....(for small stuff)
Basically the goodies to go with the purchase, it can be added to a sale......and is so freakin handy for the customer. If I can get a cheapish tint visor as part of a deal (or whathaveyou) I definitely will. (or those fucken covers on the Arais that break!)

So pretty much for me, not a hastle to get there, spacious shop with a lot of selection (this way you do'nt have to go to 7 shops to get what you were looking for) and friendly staff without the dickhead/smirk at you attitude.

bogan

10th April 2010, 14:47

3) PRICES THE SAME AS ON THE NET. Heck Ive stated the reasons why this is largely difficult to achieve in MANY threads, does no-one read these or do they refuse to believe ( as an industry insider being brutally candid ) what I am saying. Big margins, yeah right!

I'm yet to hear an answer that satisfies me, all I've heard is we can't try that its too risky, or it wont work cos the rest won't change, or the motorcycle industry in NZ is perfect and its the customers that are the problem :sick: I don't have insider knowledge, but I can try and put my thoughts in simple terms.

NZ dealers are losing trade through internet sales and are blaming everyone but themselves for this, these internet parts are identical to those you get locally, however locally they a likely to cost 1.5x as much (that includes postage from both, and for one part, if I got a bulk order locally is probably more like 2x). Won't fluctuations in the dollar help dealers buying from overseas the same as it helps customers? and I don't mind paying a bit extra (lets say 12.5% to cover the gst) to support NZ industry, but an extra 50% is too much.

I spose what I'm asking is why can places like wemoto.com get the same part, but so much cheaper even with postage taken into account?

As Ixion says it sounds like labour is being undercharged and parts overcharged to compensate, surely it makes more sense to have both divisions able to stand on their own?

And finally, do you think burying your head in the sand is going to make the problem go away? cos from where I'm sitting it sounds like that'll make customers go away.

Virago

10th April 2010, 14:53

...And Our Government is not taxing everything coming into the country, which they damn well should be...

Yup. Therein lies the biggest internet buying factor - GST.

Those buying small items for personal use on the internet are seldom slapped with GST at the border. Those same items bought in your local bike shop attract 12.5% GST (soon to be increased to 15% by your precious National government).

Those demanding the same price in the shops as they can get from huge overseas warehouses, are generally too dumb to understand such inequities.

Market forces? Yeah, right...

Headbanger

10th April 2010, 15:02

And finally, do you think burying your head in the sand is going to make the problem go away?.

I doubt he will ever get it, His 35 years in the industry has been in a business model that no longer fits the customer base, or at least a sizable chuck of the customer base.

The rise of the internet has created a far more informed customer and a far more efficient way to purchase goods, and it up to local bussiness to adapt if they want to compete for those dollars, and there is plenty of evidence this is happening with the launch of local internet based retailers with huge database of stock, quick turn arounds, and slick ways of purchasing.

It will be interesting to see if the manufacturers are willing to let their entire local based infrastructure fail or perhaps sacrifice all the middle men and supply directly to the retailer at a cost equilvent to the international retailers.

Either way, Things will continue to change.

Virago

10th April 2010, 15:08

...If we assume the full prime cost of a mechanic to be $100000 per year ( I realize that they don't get paid that, but there are many other costs in the prime cost and it's a conveniently round number, not too inaccurate); and assume a 50% charge out rate ( in my experience anything greater relies on creative time sheet entries); and a 50% burden; then that means a true charge out rate of $200 an hourroughly...

I think you're out on your calculations there, Ixion. There's roughly 2000 work hours in a year - 50% productivity would equate to 1000 hours, or $100 an hour. But the market won't accept even that.

You're right - the lower the charge-out rate, the more the mechanics will be pressured over productivity, resulting in creative time-sheets and padded-out jobs. Result, stressed staff and pissed-off clients.

Headbanger

10th April 2010, 15:08

Yup. Therein lies the biggest internet buying factor - GST.

Those buying small items for personal use on the internet are seldom slapped with GST at the border. Those same items bought in your local bike shop attract 12.5% GST (soon to be increased to 15% by your precious National government).

Those demanding the same price in the shops as they can get from huge overseas warehouses, are generally too dumb to understand such inequities.

Market forces? Yeah, right...

Speaking of too dumb.

You just outlined the very market forces I was referring to, then denied them.

Besides, its the large discrepancy in prices on many items that have prompted people to shop overseas, Not the blind insistence that prices be matched. Unlike yourself I'd say customers are getting too smart, not too dumb. And only a fool would dismiss it in the manner you have done.

Headbanger

10th April 2010, 15:12

You will also find that a few business are running their workshop as a separate entity from their retail outlet (and the retail outlet has to pay for any work done by the workshop on retail items ie:bikes) and that the workshop has to sustain itself.

And its not costing $200 an hour.

Virago

10th April 2010, 15:16

Speaking of too dumb.

You just outlined the very market forces I was referring to, then denied them.

Besides, its the large discrepancy in prices on many items that have prompted people to shop overseas, Not the blind insistence that prices be matched. Unlike yourself I'd say customers are getting too smart, not too dumb. And only a fool would dismiss it in the manner you have done.

I stand corrected - dumb may be the wrong expression - short-sighted is more accurate.

The bike shops are not responsible for the GST inequities, yet are somehow expected to compete?

You continue with your smart shopping and your market forces. But at the end of the day, the bike shops won't be there when you need them.

firefighter

10th April 2010, 15:18

Maybe you should start another thread dude. And somehow (do'nt ask me how!) make it clear you don't want any crap/arguments in it. Or perhaps the mods could swoop in and move all the crap into P.D and leave behind what was asked for?........

This place is filled with what a bike shop owner wants: CUSTOMERS!

We have all visited the places that get it soo fucking wrong. So wrong in fact that we will never go back!

Many of us (me included) have started threads re useless cunts not doing what we want.

Let's here tell the shop owners, and the ones who are planning to open one, what we, their customers, really expect!

What do you expect, want, prefer?
What do you hate?
What makes a good... no, a PERFECT shop?

And try to be serious here. After all, I recon that if someone on here is running a shop/planning to run one, he would love to know...

Ixion

10th April 2010, 15:21

I think you're out on your calculations there, Ixion. There's roughly 2000 work hours in a year - 50% productivity would equate to 1000 hours, or $100 an hour. But the market won't accept even that.

You're right - the lower the charge-out rate, the more the mechanics will be pressured over productivity, resulting in creative time-sheets and padded-out jobs. Result, stressed staff and pissed-off clients.

Nope. No mistake. You are overlooking the specified 50% burden . 1000 hours at $100 will only cover the prime cost. That is the $100000 to paythe mechanics wages, holidays, stat says, sick days, FBT, tool allowance, employers ACC, Kiwisaver training costs , overalls, laundrey, protective clothing, first aid, recruitment costs etc. I did mention that there were other costs.

BUT it does nothing to cover the costs of rent, insurance, light and power, repairs and maintenence , depreciation, advertising, clerical, consumables and all the other overheads. That is the burden charge, a 50% figure ( or another $100000) is a typical cost in this industry .

In short it costs a shit load more to run a business than people think.

Edit . However on reflection I think the 50% / 50% is probably overstated for the tyical bike shop - those were actual figures from when I did that sort of stuff for a job, but it was in a more complex and technical industry.

Perhaps 70% and 30% burden would be closer for a smallish bike shop.say,$150 per hour.

Conquiztador

10th April 2010, 15:30

There was no intention to hijack the thread as such, so Ill say my piece and be done with it.......

BUT DONT LISTEN TO ME, IVE ONLY HAD 35 YEARS IN THE TRADE IN BOTH WHOLESALE AND RETAIL, I KNOW NOTHING......

There are ways and means but its threatening the traditional wholesale and retail etiquette......

Perhaps Im old fashioned and one of the realities of being like that is having a concern for the long term health of the country. No apologies for that.....

Robert. You have missed the point of this tread totally. I had a small business in servie and sales for 10 years. I know all the ins and outs, the agency stuff, how you think you have it and then someone else suddenly sells the same cheaper bla bla. This thread was not about how hard it is to make a dollar as a honest bike shop owner (as I am sure you are).

The question here was: WHAT DOES THE CUSTOMER WANT?
Why not "listen" to the customers, see if there is something you can pick up here (Personally I wonder if many had thought about the point that was made about treating young new customers really well so they stay with you?).

Your 35 years in the trade is most probably a hinderance as things have changed. Heaps. And will keep on doing so.

I tell you a story: Bizerba was the biggest weighing scale manufacturer in the world. All their scales were mechanical. Then the Japanese started making electronic ones. Bizerba refused to change. All for gallant reasons: They would have had to close factories, make all their mechanical technicians redundant, suppliers who made a living on supplying them with dampeners, oils, springs etc would have had to close. So they kept on making their brilliant, but by now old fashioned, scales. And they lost all their market. From having been the biggest supplier in the world they went to close to bankrupcy. In the end they had to start making electronic scales and take the drastic mesures they did not want to. Today they are again one of the biggest.

Same happened with the Swizz watch makers when digital watches came out.

What you are currently fighting is the same. You can do nothing about the change. Either learn to adapt or die.

So again, take this thread as it is meant: as a list of ideas from customers re what they want. Nothing else. This is not a place for you to try and tell anyone why this or that can not be done. In Brainstorming nothing is wrong or impossible.

Peace!

Motu

10th April 2010, 15:31

In short it costs a shit load to run a business than people think.

And you can add in theft,vanalism,grafitti and bad debts.It costs so much to run a business it's a wonder any of them survive.

Headbanger

10th April 2010, 15:34

I stand corrected - dumb may be the wrong expression - short-sighted is more accurate.

The bike shops are not responsible for the GST inequities, yet are somehow expected to compete?

You continue with your smart shopping and your market forces. But at the end of the day, the bike shops won't be there when you need them.

The very existence of threads and discussion like this would indicate you and the industry have it the wrong way around. The short-sightedness of the industry means the customers they need won't be there...

And mechanics will always be around, and if they have to charge a rate to survive then that's life.They should already be doing so. In fact we routinly take all sorts of gear to mechanic shops rather then dealers and costs are generally the same if not lower.

As for GST, The limit is $400, at which level the cost if importing a single item all the way from the other side of the world should outweigh it by a large margin, But in the real world even in the event GST was applied then no doubt there would still be large cost savings for the consumer or they wouldn't bother to source from overseas.

Motu

10th April 2010, 15:35

WHAT DOES THE CUSTOMER WANT?

The bottom line? As much as they can get as cheap as possible.They will put up with very bad service to get a very good deal.

Conquiztador

10th April 2010, 15:48

The bottom line? As much as they can get as cheap as possible.They will put up with very bad service to get a very good deal.

I disagree. The cost is very seldom the main factor. Yes, if there is two similar businesses selling same thingy then I will go to the one that is cheaper. But if you read the replies that have ansered the question you will find that being treated well tends to be something that comes back again and again. Sure, being ripped off by a friendly and smiling sales guy is not gonna work. So the price will be a factor. And as also stated, today with the web we all have an idea (well most of us...) what the bit really should cost.

Headbanger

10th April 2010, 15:53

The bottom line? As much as they can get as cheap as possible.

Value for money.
Appreciation for being their with my dollars.

I've had better friendlier service spending $5 at Mcdonalds then I have had trying my hardest to spend thousands at some bike shops.

Katman

10th April 2010, 15:56

How about some things in return?

How about.......when you order something from a business who is decent enough to not expect payment until the item arrives, you make a point of returning to pick up and pay for it instead of just never bothering, or getting it elsewhere the same day but not bothering to let the other mug know.

How about.......when your bike is finished you make a point of collecting and paying for it, instead of leaving it three weeks because you had another bike to ride around on anyway.

How about........when you ask to pay a job off, you don't expect $20 a week (or a really big bag of weed) to cut it.

How about......when a payment plan is agreed on, you stick to it.

How about.......when something goes wrong with your bike after it has been in the workshop (that may be absolutely nothing to do with the work done), you come in and discuss it rationally instead of storming in with a rocket up your arse.

How about......when you're lent a tool, you bring it back.

How about......you accept that it's my neck on the block if I issue you with a WOF when your bike has any defects, no matter how many other places haven't worried about them in the past.

How about......you understand it's not our fault that the part is going to take three weeks to come from Japan (or six months from Italy :eek:)

How about......if I can remember your name, you remember mine.

How about......you realise that the stock that a shop carries has cost that shop a lot of money and should be handled with the utmost care until you choose to hand over your money for an item - then you can handle it in whatever manner you choose.

How about......if you're given a loan bike, you treat it with respect instead of using it to practice your wheelies (or taking it on a round-the-island road trip).

How about......when you bring your kids into the shop you stop them from clambering all over the bikes with their chocolate ice-cream covered fingers.

CookMySock

10th April 2010, 15:57

Robert. [...] Why not "listen" to the customers, see if there is something you can pick up here..Because he feels too angry and victimised by those same people to see that he can change it, and maybe really scared of some looming change in the industry.

It's 60% about him and 40% about all the people that have done hurtful things to him in business all his career. I am in not too much different a situation, where it's easy to point the finger at all the people who made things hard and much harder to fix where I am at and then proceed. Along with it comes the feeling of "being doomed" which doesn't help the situation at all.

I think it's healthy to not work in one industry too long. One gets too embedded in the stress, and sometimes its better to just hand it over to someone fresh and not so burned.

I think your thread is well intended, but often the rational look at "why?" needs to also take into account how people are feeling, which quite a lot of the time is "not too flash", and maybe this will give some insight to how people perceive they are "mistreated."

For myself, I make a point of walking into any room and asking myself "how are these people feeling and why?" Everyone has their own life, and the lack of a smile on their parts mans' face is just an indicator of the struggles he has in his life, just like you do.

People aren't machines. The have feelings and families and troubles, just like you do, and some of those troubles can be a really big.

Basically you have to decide if you want a motorbike shop nearby or not. Then it's pretty clear what you have to do.

Steve

Smifffy

10th April 2010, 16:00

As predicted this has turned into yet another "Stupid customers don't deserve the industry" thread.

What I already get from the bike shops and really like:

Friendly service
So far a good follow up rate on the commitments that are important to me
Occasional use of the steam cleaner
Coffee when I just pop in for a chat and they are quiet
Organised rides and events than I am invited to
Being told by the workshop of issues that are likely to crop up with my bike in the near future
Dealing with the same guy that I bought a bike off 25 years ago
I was impressed when buying gear for The Moll that there was a biker chick working there that could understand all the chick stuff

What I'd really like to see:
Much more selection of gear, most places seem to stock entry level and top end stuff, with not much middle of the range. I'm not worried about it being in my size, just being able to look at it, feel it, gauge the quality etc. Then with a tape measure check the size and get the right one in, within a timeframe of say a week or two. Before I go in I will already have an idea of online prices and if the shop doesn't compare I will say so there and then, rather than sneakily taking the measurements etc and ordering online as suggested by some on here.

What I really don't like:
Being looked down on by twerps in "status" shops
Being ignored while staff & mates huddle in the corner with coffee (I know I said earlier i like coffee & a chat, and I will always expect the staff to leave their chat and deal with a customer 1st - if they get busy actually making a living I will finish my coffee quietly and go, perhaps putting in a good word for them to the prospective buyer as I leave)
Cheap crap with a status symbol logo on it that costs twice as much as something decent.

Having said all of that I'm planning a trip to the states at end of year, does anybody know of a huge ass motorcycle superstore, (kind of like the bass pro shops, but for motorcycles, if anyone knows them) preferably in the South?

Robert Taylor

10th April 2010, 16:05

Robert. You have missed the point of this tread totally. I had a small business in servie and sales for 10 years. I know all the ins and outs, the agency stuff, how you think you have it and then someone else suddenly sells the same cheaper bla bla. This thread was not about how hard it is to make a dollar as a honest bike shop owner (as I am sure you are).

The question here was: WHAT DOES THE CUSTOMER WANT?
Why not "listen" to the customers, see if there is something you can pick up here (Personally I wonder if many had thought about the point that was made about treating young new customers really well so they stay with you?).

Your 35 years in the trade is most probably a hinderance as things have changed. Heaps. And will keep on doing so.

I tell you a story: Bizerba was the biggest weighing scale manufacturer in the world. All their scales were mechanical. Then the Japanese started making electronic ones. Bizerba refused to change. All for gallant reasons: They would have had to close factories, make all their mechanical technicians redundant, suppliers who made a living on supplying them with dampeners, oils, springs etc would have had to close. So they kept on making their brilliant, but by now old fashioned, scales. And they lost all their market. From having been the biggest supplier in the world they went to close to bankrupcy. In the end they had to start making electronic scales and take the drastic mesures they did not want to. Today they are again one of the biggest.

Same happened with the Swizz watch makers when digital watches came out.

What you are currently fighting is the same. You can do nothing about the change. Either learn to adapt or die.

So again, take this thread as it is meant: as a list of ideas from customers re what they want. Nothing else. This is not a place for you to try and tell anyone why this or that can not be done. In Brainstorming nothing is wrong or impossible.

Peace!

I disagree, as much as its ''inconvenient'' to dare mention the realities of operating costs etc. My own business model ( and this thread is NOT about me ) is largely giving my customers what they want because unlike Headbanger said after 35 years I do actually get it. Remember also that many or most operating costs are a given , imposed by central and local Government.
In my own case a very high percentage of customers come to us direct and there are several reasons for that but there are two worthy of mentioning here;
1) They often have no confidence whatoever in the ability of the dealer to set up and customise the suspension for their needs. In fairness this has also become a specialist job
2)We are flexible on price to meet head on the competition from the internet. That inevitably often means cutting out the dealer and the further margin they would enjoy i.e a traditional retail margin, and certainly not a handsome one. That rests okay with me when a dealer has done no work to get a sale as the customer already knows what he / she wants. But it also rests uneasy with me in respect of dealers who are very pro-active.
Either way I want to cut out as much as possible the faceless overseas internet companies and the odd parasitical parallell importer that pops up feeding off our expense in national advertising, a requirement stipulated by the manufacturer. As for parallell importers they can burn in hell because they truly are parasites
Did I mention that I dont work a 40 hour 8 to 5 job like the old business model?

We like all distributors in NZ dont enjoy the same bulk discounts that a distributor in a huge heavily populated economy can, we dont enjoy importing goods devoid of clearance charges and gst, we have to forward order many goods in line with production schedules and the exchange rate you pay for it at is that prevailing at the time, not maybe a more favourable one a few months later when you are still holding stock. Etc ad infinitum.

My business has very much adapted and its always a case of chasing a moving target.

If you want to prove a point why dont you start up a motorcycle shop?????

I understand what many people are saying and agree, personally I like to make my customers as happy as possible and I think by a and large we achieve that and they go away thinking theyve had a lot of added value. Im lucky in that respect that Ive got very good staff and can only recall a couple of glitches that were subsequently rectified.

But when I see simpleton post about $40 charge out rates because the guy just doesnt understand simple economics then Im going to say something despite there being emotional claptrap following.

Headbanger

10th April 2010, 16:11

In Roberts case, If he simply said, I'm an expert, this is what you pay for my expertise, I provide an excellent service, this is what that service costs, Well, I can respect that. Paying for expertise and service is value for money.

But all this melodrama about dependents, misguided customers, Being owed due to being in business, and large self-involved posts........meh.

Robert Taylor

10th April 2010, 16:12

Value for money.
Appreciation for being their with my dollars.

I've had better friendlier service spending $5 at Mcdonalds then I have had trying my hardest to spend thousands at some bike shops.

Flipping heck if you buy suspension off my business and pay thousands for it Ill be very thankful beyond the plastic Americanised greetings at that fast food joint! And there will be lots of added value!

Robert Taylor

10th April 2010, 16:19

I disagree. The cost is very seldom the main factor. Yes, if there is two similar businesses selling same thingy then I will go to the one that is cheaper. But if you read the replies that have ansered the question you will find that being treated well tends to be something that comes back again and again. Sure, being ripped off by a friendly and smiling sales guy is not gonna work. So the price will be a factor. And as also stated, today with the web we all have an idea (well most of us...) what the bit really should cost.

While there is always a small hardcore of customers where the lowest price is 100% the only factor I have to otherwise agree with everything that you have said. I think also we are all a bit different, personally I hate the in your face salesman type that pounces on you when you have only half a foot in the door, I think its important to have a cheery disposition and not ignore a customer but also they should have a bit of space before being pounced upon.
I also like extremely knowledgable sales people but that is a commodity harder and harder to find in many industries.

Squiggles

10th April 2010, 16:27

Cycletreads is a good example imo

crazyhorse

10th April 2010, 16:27

I don't mean to be a killjoy, but there are already at least 3 bike shops in HB, and I know that they are all struggling with the downturn in economy. Therefore I wonder how you would think starting up a NEW bike shop in HB would take off, when people are not spending the money they/us used to spend.

I think you're concept is good, but wonder, that is all...... :scratch:

Robert Taylor

10th April 2010, 16:30

I doubt he will ever get it, His 35 years in the industry has been in a business model that no longer fits the customer base, or at least a sizable chuck of the customer base.

The rise of the internet has created a far more informed customer and a far more efficient way to purchase goods, and it up to local bussiness to adapt if they want to compete for those dollars, and there is plenty of evidence this is happening with the launch of local internet based retailers with huge database of stock, quick turn arounds, and slick ways of purchasing.

It will be interesting to see if the manufacturers are willing to let their entire local based infrastructure fail or perhaps sacrifice all the middle men and supply directly to the retailer at a cost equilvent to the international retailers.

Either way, Things will continue to change.

If I can pick up on one thing there that I dont think you will disagree with. There is a lot of ''information'' available on the internet, but what percentage is good information and what percentage is not good? Thats a very real danger and anyone gullible may suffer from the cynical but not incorrect view that ''everything you read on the internet is correct''

i hear the term ''researching the net'' used often. Just dealing in my specialist trade ( and the knowledge and experience Ive personally accumulated ) if individuals read and believed a lot of the ''suspension cures'' posted on here by 5 minute experts theyd be up the creek without a paddle

Motu

10th April 2010, 16:34

I disagree. The cost is very seldom the main factor. Yes, if there is two similar businesses selling same thingy then I will go to the one that is cheaper..

Yes,they will go to the one that is cheaper,regardless of the service provided.In my business I tried not to get sucked into the price thing,and aimed to be the most expensive workshop in my area.I still had arguments about price,abuse about being a ''rip off artist'',but at least I knew most of them weren't coming to me for a cheap deal.I had no intention of being a greasy nice guy,but fair and honest goes a long way.

onearmedbandit

10th April 2010, 16:35

Robert Taylor

10th April 2010, 16:35

Robert Taylor

10th April 2010, 16:38

Yes,they will go to the one that is cheaper,regardless of the service provided.In my business I tried not to get sucked into the price thing,and aimed to be the most expensive workshop in my area.I still had arguments about price,abuse about being a ''rip off artist'',but at least I knew most of them weren't coming to me for a cheap deal.I had no intention of being a greasy nice guy,but fair and honest goes a long way.

Well said. If you charge at the bottom level of the market that is where you are going to stay. FAIR and HONEST are the key words

Robert Taylor

10th April 2010, 16:43

Someone suggests that bike shops need to be more competitive with their prices compared to what you can purchase overseas.
Someone else suggests that the hourly rate charged out is too low and that businesess rely on 'large'margins in parts to survive.
Someone suggest that the true charge out rate should be $200. Someone suggests that it should be$100. Countered by it should be $200, but even at $100 the market won't support it.
Someone suggests that it cost a lot more than we think to run a business. Someone else agrees and wonders how they even survive.

So can someone explain to me exactly how bike shops should keep their doors open, be competitive with prices available online, and keep their charge out rate at the current level. I'm all ears. Or in this case, eyes.

Add this thought, the margins on new bikes are abysmally poor , often single digit. Bikes should be higher priced affording dealers a decent margin. The trade also needs to get its act together and be more like the car industry in following more rigid trade in price guidelines. Get rid of the dutch auction mentality of which dealer is going to overpay the most for the trade. Ive heard people brag about this and frankly they dont care a toss if the dealer subsequently goes broke, as long as they get the deal.

bogan

10th April 2010, 16:50

2)We are flexible on price to meet head on the competition from the internet. That inevitably often means cutting out the dealer and the further margin they would enjoy i.e a traditional retail margin, and certainly not a handsome one. That rests okay with me when a dealer has done no work to get a sale as the customer already knows what he / she wants. But it also rests uneasy with me in respect of dealers who are very pro-active.

Personally I don't want a shop to be flexible on price, it suggests the shop is overcharging customers who dont ask for a discount does it not? I also don't like to ask for a discount anyway, like what makes me so special that I should be able to get it less than list price? If a shop advertises they are flexible on price then yeh, I'll ask but I havent seen one that does.

So can someone explain to me exactly how bike shops should keep their doors open, be competitive with prices available online, and keep their charge out rate at the current level. I'm all ears. Or in this case, eyes.

As I said before, increase the charge out rate to compensate, workshop jobs will still cost about the same as the parts will be cheaper, and you'll get more sales at a lower profit margin which should be about the same as less sales at a higher profit margin. Of course I don't actually know what the margins/economies of scale are, but thats how I see it working anyway.

Motu

10th April 2010, 16:54

A story of service provided to me by a bike shop this week....

I was looking at some pants online,looked like what I wanted...99.9% positive feedback.Looking at the website,I see my local bike shop is an agent,and as I'm wary of sizes preferred not to buy online,I wanted to try them on first.I asked the owner about them and told him he was the agent - "Are we?! I didn't know that!'' So we looked up on the website and there it was.So he ordered me a pair on the phone as I stood there,should be in store in a couple of days (from the next town).I went back 3 days later and no pants.They were rung and ''Oh,I forgot to send them''.Three days later and still no pants - ''You didn't tell us the size''.Yes they did,style,colour,waist and leg.The youngest member of the team took it in hand and reordered,followed up twice to make sure they had the order and were shipped.So finally after 2 weeks I got what I wanted...happy with the product.

I'm sure the feedback on this site would be scathing of the bike shop,but it wasn't their fault,but the fault of the supplier.Obviously this guy is very prompt with orders online,but totally hopeless with phone orders....or it may be a different person,but whatever the reason,he made his agent look bad in all areas.For me there was no problem - I didn't desperately need them,I know the bike shop and everyone there as I used to work for them,and they kept me informed all the way.But disappointed at the online providers ''real world'' service.

Headbanger

10th April 2010, 17:37

If I can pick up on one thing there that I dont think you will disagree with. There is a lot of ''information'' available on the internet, but what percentage is good information and what percentage is not good? Thats a very real danger and anyone gullible may suffer from the cynical but not incorrect view that ''everything you read on the internet is correct''

i hear the term ''researching the net'' used often. Just dealing in my specialist trade ( and the knowledge and experience Ive personally accumulated ) if individuals read and believed a lot of the ''suspension cures'' posted on here by 5 minute experts theyd be up the creek without a paddle

In my opinion suspension is a black art best left to the experts, and that expertise is worth paying for.

In my experience on dirtbikes I only ever managed to make things worse with my tinkering and was never able to get it back to how it was. Also wasted huge dollars buying shocks off others (other riders that is) that supposedly knew their stuff with the end result being a bike that was near unridable.

No way in hell am I about to touch the suspension on my road bike.

HenryDorsetCase

10th April 2010, 17:47

HenryDorsetCase

10th April 2010, 17:55

Yup. Therein lies the biggest internet buying factor - GST.

Those buying small items for personal use on the internet are seldom slapped with GST at the border. Those same items bought in your local bike shop attract 12.5% GST (soon to be increased to 15% by your precious National government).

Those demanding the same price in the shops as they can get from huge overseas warehouses, are generally too dumb to understand such inequities.

Market forces? Yeah, right...

political sniping aside, in my experience the biggest issues with internet purchase are getting what you actually ordered, and freight cost. GST is the PITA that is the icing on the cake.

As my "Fuck you" to the Arai distributors in NZ taught me. Oh yes. Plus side: I have the helmet I wanted (from Peter Stevens in Melbourne) and all it cost me was 1.25X what the same helmet (but, crucially with different graphics) would have cost me here. Its far too expensive (and new and shiny) for me ever to use now. Itsa lovely ornament sitting in my study here.

mattian

10th April 2010, 18:14

Headbanger

10th April 2010, 18:20

If I owned a bikeshop, I'd run it into the ground.

Don't know shit about running a bike shop, But thanks to the internet I can talk shit to people that actually do.

Lucky for them.

Lmfao.

Oh yeah, sweet sweet Bourbon.

Robert Taylor

10th April 2010, 18:36

Personally I don't want a shop to be flexible on price, it suggests the shop is overcharging customers who dont ask for a discount does it not? I also don't like to ask for a discount anyway, like what makes me so special that I should be able to get it less than list price? If a shop advertises they are flexible on price then yeh, I'll ask but I havent seen one that does.

What Im actually saying is its deleting the dealer and retail margin out of the equation , and this is becoming neccessary to meet the internet sales head on.

As I said before, increase the charge out rate to compensate, workshop jobs will still cost about the same as the parts will be cheaper, and you'll get more sales at a lower profit margin which should be about the same as less sales at a higher profit margin. Of course I don't actually know what the margins/economies of scale are, but thats how I see it working anyway.

Thats fine in so much as you have fully skilled, trained, experienced and highly attentive mechanics. Therein lies the problem with too many shops

Conquiztador

10th April 2010, 18:49

Robert, PLEASE read the first post I made again:

This place is filled with what a bike shop owner wants: CUSTOMERS!

We have all visited the places that get it soo fucking wrong. So wrong in fact that we will never go back!

Many of us (me included) have started threads re useless cunts not doing what we want.

Let's here tell the shop owners, and the ones who are planning to open one, what we, their customers, really expect!

What do you expect, want, prefer?
What do you hate?
What makes a good... no, a PERFECT shop?

And try to be serious here. After all, I recon that if someone on here is running a shop/planning to run one, he would love to know...

That was simple enough I thought. Tell us what you would do!

Initially you did not get it, you just kept on going down same track as always.
So I posted this:

Hi Robert. You are not helping here... Can you please stay out from this thread.

So you came back with one more same same:

There was no intention to hijack the thread as such, so Ill say my piece and be done with it. that...
I thought: Done!

But fuck me dead! You still have not got what this thread is on about! (And there are a couple others. One that is a dork in best of times so who cares...)
You go on and on and on and fucking on with the same record! 12 postings with same broken record!

I disagree, as much as its ''inconvenient'' to dare mention the realities of operating costs etc. My own business model ( and this thread is NOT about me ) is largely giving my customers .... after 35 years I do actually get it...In my own case a... come to us direct and...We are flexible.... That rests okay with me...Either way I want to....off our expense in....Did I mention that I dont work a...We like all... we dont enjoy... we have to forward order...My business has very...I understand...personally I like...and I think...we achieve ...Im lucky in... Ive got...But when I see...then Im going to say....

You could have fooled me....

And re your comment: "If you want to prove a point why dont you start up a motorcycle shop?????" Childish comment. That is what my kids used to tell me when I told them to do a better job of their homework: "Do it your self then..." We have now gotten over that. They have realised that I am not saying it to hurt them or to tell them that they are useless (because they are far from it). I do it to help, to make them see that "good enough" is not what it is about. And so I work with them. Only your best will do! My intention with this thread was to get the Roberts of this world to see what customers want. But clearly he already knows it...

I don't want to start a bike shop. I have a career in another area that I am happy with. And when I need some help from a bike shop I will go to one. But if they do not help I go to another until I find one that I like. Sofar there is one that stands heads above the others in HB. And the price has nothing to do with it.

Katman

10th April 2010, 19:00

It's my thread and I'll cry if I want to<hgvhgvhjv>

Conquiztador

10th April 2010, 19:06

<HGVHGVHJV>
A couple of things to you;
1. Do NEVER post a something dorky you have written as someone elses quote.
2. Please ring that bell as you clearly need your meds again.:yawn:

Kiri

10th April 2010, 19:10

OK, so I thought this is a good thread to (finally) put out there what i'd personally (no agenda - mostly) like to see in a bike shop.
so here we go:
1. customer service (being treated like a regular, even if I'm not, and as 'one of the guys' is always nice)
2. diversity of product (if I ask for something I expect options and advice about the best product)
3. same deal for everyone (hog owners get 10% off, I want that too - god knows I spend enough)
Operating costs aside, I'd like 'service'.
That's all.
Thanks for the oppotunity to add my opinion :D

Robert Taylor

10th April 2010, 19:39

Robert, PLEASE read the first post I made again:

That was simple enough I thought. Tell us what you would do!

Initially you did not get it, you just kept on going down same track as always.
So I posted this:

So you came back with one more same same:

I thought: Done!

But fuck me dead! You still have not got what this thread is on about! (And there are a couple others. One that is a dork in best of times so who cares...)
You go on and on and on and fucking on with the same record! 12 postings with same broken record!

You could have fooled me....

And re your comment: "If you want to prove a point why dont you start up a motorcycle shop?????" Childish comment. That is what my kids used to tell me when I told them to do a better job of their homework: "Do it your self then..." We have now gotten over that. They have realised that I am not saying it to hurt them or to tell them that they are useless (because they are far from it). I do it to help, to make them see that "good enough" is not what it is about. And so I work with them. Only your best will do! My intention with this thread was to get the Roberts of this world to see what customers want. But clearly he already knows it...

I don't want to start a bike shop. I have a career in another area that I am happy with. And when I need some help from a bike shop I will go to one. But if they do not help I go to another until I find one that I like. Sofar there is one that stands heads above the others in HB. And the price has nothing to do with it.

If you read through my posts ( which I dont wish to further clarify ) you will see that in my case I have reacted to the market and in fact we do a lot of things that our customers are very happy with, and attracts further customers. We provide an enormous amount of added value, information and attend racing activity and complimentary promotional / bike set up all over the country. As far as doing business we are pretty much 24 / 7. But that does take a toll. IN MY FIELD I CAN LAY CLAIM TO VERY MUCH KNOWING WHAT MY CUSTOMERS WANT, so long as Im not going to go bust doing so. Im also very much aware of the discontent that many motorcyclists have with service in the industry, but it would be unfair to label the whole industry as useless.
As I have said there are a lot of ''I wish'' comments that I agree with. Those that I dont agree with are because they are just downright stupid and economically disastrous.
The reality is that bike shops and especially those with leading franchises are actually ( and this is brutal ) ''serfs'' to the distributors and those distributors are in turn dictated to by the factories. So its by no means down to the bike shops themselves.
I have only had the intention of providing a industry insight, from the perspective of having been in retail, wholesale and dealing DIRECTLY with factories, including YMC.

Robert Taylor

10th April 2010, 19:49

Actually what Im trying to also say is that the system is a juggernaut and that starts with the manufacturer and then their distribution network right through to the dealer. This is common practice throughout the world in many or most industries.

Everyone wants to deal with knowledgable and friendly people who can provide service and parts quickly and at reasonable cost. Good parts people and good mechanics are especially VERY difficult to come by.

A wish list is great and Id agree with maybe 70% or more of it. But without wishing to in any way be negative it depends on having the right people. There is THE ONE BIGGEST PROBLEM.

Muppet

10th April 2010, 19:56

If you read through my posts ( which I dont wish to further clarify ) you will see that in my case I have reacted to the market and in fact we do a lot of things that our customers are very happy with, and attracts further customers. We provide an enormous amount of added value, information and attend racing activity and complimentary promotional / bike set up all over the country. As far as doing business we are pretty much 24 / 7. But that does take a toll. IN MY FIELD I CAN LAY CLAIM TO VERY MUCH KNOWING WHAT MY CUSTOMERS WANT, so long as Im not going to go bust doing so. Im also very much aware of the discontent that many motorcyclists have with service in the industry, but it would be unfair to label the whole industry as useless.
As I have said there are a lot of ''I wish'' comments that I agree with. Those that I dont agree with are because they are just downright stupid and economically disastrous.
The reality is that bike shops and especially those with leading franchises are actually ( and this is brutal ) ''serfs'' to the distributors and those distributors are in turn dictated to by the factories. So its by no means down to the bike shops themselves.
I have only had the intention of providing a industry insight, from the perspective of having been in retail, wholesale and dealing DIRECTLY with factories, including YMC.

Well Robert I emailed you with some recommendations regarding my zx12r's suspension, which if anyone has ever ridden one will know, it's hard in the rear and soft up front. You promptly replied with a concise and easy to understand synopsis of the bikes suspension characteristics (btw I don't have a degree and had to look up many of the big words in this reply). What I'm saying is you're a good bastard!

Headbanger

10th April 2010, 20:01

Good bastard that Robert may be, I believe that what Conq was referring to was the thread was a simple question aimed at customers, not a soapbox for industry players.

Keyword, Customers, wants.

That said, I'll shut the hell up.Lmfao.

Jantar

10th April 2010, 20:13

Reasonable workshop rates would be a good start. None of this $80+ per hour bullshit. .....
A charge out rate of $80 means the mechanic is recieving around $30 per hour. I would be suspicious of a mechanic who is prepared to work for less than that. Alternatively the shop is not charging enough to meet overheads and I would question how long they will remain in business to back up their service.

sidecar bob

10th April 2010, 20:17

Kiri

10th April 2010, 20:24

just to add to my last post:
4. qualified mechanics (I can maintain my own bike, I don't need a small engine mech to tell me to change the oil ...)

Thanks again.

HenryDorsetCase

10th April 2010, 20:27

If I owned a bike shop I would be open both days on the weekend. Being the only bike shop open on Sundays for a full day would make you the busiest bike shop around and it would probably be your busiest day of the week.

you and your wife prepared to staff it? because none of your staff will work those days: particularly your mechanics.

mattian

10th April 2010, 20:30

you and your wife prepared to staff it? because none of your staff will work those days: particularly your mechanics.

My wife....... hasnt arrived from the Ukraine yet. I think she got lost in the post.

HenryDorsetCase

10th April 2010, 20:30

By the way, compared to what I charge an hour, $80 is very reasonable. Presumably thats Plus GST?

HenryDorsetCase

10th April 2010, 20:32

My wife....... hasnt arrived from the Ukraine yet. I think she got lost in the post.

she's got your PIN and bank account details, and she's hoovered your bank. By the way, her name was Boris, "She" was 5 ft 1 and 260 pouunds, hairy and halitosis, and a known soap dodger. I'd just like to be the first to offer my congratulations.

Pussy

10th April 2010, 20:34

mattian

10th April 2010, 20:39

she's got your PIN and bank account details, and she's hoovered your bank. By the way, her name was Boris, "She" was 5 ft 1 and 260 pouunds, hairy and halitosis, and a known soap dodger. I'd just like to be the first to offer my congratulations.

I dont even want to know how you knew what her/his breath smelled like. I wouldn't let it get that far. :laugh:

bogan

10th April 2010, 20:42

So, nobody wants very much as usual, no $80 per hour bullshit, courtesy bikes for menial 15 minute jobs, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of parts stock for outdated models, a full stock of riding gear in all sizes to try on so they can be bought off the net, etc etc.
Most of the "experts" here would go broke trying to sell ice creams, let alone a multi faceted highly skilled operation with huge overheads.

Well my last wof took over an hour, I aint complaining about the time, in fact I prefer they do a thorough job, but i would have been greatly appreciative of even a scooter to go about my buisness with, this appreciation would have transfered into recomendations to mate and my continued buisness. Bugger all cost to the shop I would have thought. I think that sort of thing is what conquiztador made the thread for, get some ideas to help bike shops out, but it seems all those in the industry are getting all on the defensive. And I agree that some are unfeasible, like sub $80 an hour rates, so don't take that advice.

Kiri

10th April 2010, 20:42

I'm posting here because I want bike shops to IMPROVE. sorry for shouting but wtf? why take it so personally - it's really not directed at any one person. As far as I can tell this is an opportunity to get feedback and maybe improve sales because of it.

OMG - sorry for the rant... anyway, essentially NZ is at the bottom end of it, in terms of getting what other countries have to offer - regardless of industry. That said we could and can improve service - because that's all we really have control over in the end anyway.

Kiri

10th April 2010, 20:55

Well my last wof took over an hour, I aint complaining about the time, in fact I prefer they do a thorough job, but i would have been greatly appreciative of even a scooter to go about my buisness with, this appreciation would have transfered into recomendations to mate and my continued buisness. Bugger all cost to the shop I would have thought. I think that sort of thing is what conquiztador made the thread for, get some ideas to help bike shops out, but it seems all those in the industry are getting all on the defensive. And I agree that some are unfeasible, like sub $80 an hour rates, so don't take that advice.

Yea, I'm with you Bogun :yes:

sidecar bob

10th April 2010, 21:21

Well my last wof took over an hour

Really!! are you sure? & how much did it cost? aprox the same as a mechanic for an hour?. No, i thought not.
They take 15 min, i know this because i am a licenced w.o.f inspector.

Mom

10th April 2010, 21:30

Really!! are you sure? & how much did it cost? aprox the same as a mechanic for an hour?. No, i thought not.
They take 15 min, i know this because i am a licenced w.o.f inspector.

My fav place to go to for a car wof is the local wreckers. Man they are speedy testers. Makes me laugh everytime I see them drive out of their yard honking the horn and using the wipers and washers while indicating both left and right till they settle on left, all inside about 20 mtrs! They are fair testers too, fail anything unsafe in an instant, but offer realistic repairs options for your old bomb cars. Tests last but a short time. Last WOF I got there cost me the thick end of $500 and took about 10 mins for the test.

bogan

10th April 2010, 21:46

Really!! are you sure? & how much did it cost? aprox the same as a mechanic for an hour?. No, i thought not.
They take 15 min, i know this because i am a licenced w.o.f inspector.

this is exactly the attitude I was referring to, despite me being there and waiting for over an hour (i remember this cos i was bored for 30 mins, the other was spent looking at the fancy bikes on the showroom :D), this plonker tries to tell me it didn't take that long. WOFs are a flat rate item so it doesn't matter how long it takes you get billed the same, or are you going to tell me I somehow got billed for more than I paid too?

Movistar

10th April 2010, 23:03

Attention to detail - If I take my bike in for work I expect to get it back in the same condition as I took it in there. No semi-greasy hand marks, no superficial scratches, just as clean and appealing as it was when I dropped it off. I'm a fussy Mofo when it comes to my motorcycle and I would like to think people who have to work on it respect that.
In the showroom, nice clean stock (accessories and bikes (new and used)). Doesn't have to be immaculate, but tidy. Actually it has to be appealing. Like someone actually gives a shit. No piles of outdated stock sitting in a heap waiting for 'someone' to do 'something' with it.

PK (Product Knowledge) - It's very frustrating when you ask a seemingly intelligent question and get the response "I don't know."
There's nothing wrong with not knowing, but there is something wrong with saying "I don't know" and not even trying to make an effort to indicate that you will find out so that you do know. What's even worse is getting an answer that is completely wrong.

Fair Price - I don't mind paying a fair price for anything. I'm sure we are all in the same boat here.

Excellent Communication - not just towards me, but to other staff and suppliers (it does work both ways 'cause it's a two-way thing). I detest having spoken to one staff member (either by phone or face-to-face) say for example purchasing something and agreeing on a price, then going to collect the goods only to find that staff member is out, and there is no record of the agreed price anywhere (just an example). Why is it that (most) retail shops send their staff to lunch at 12.00pm which is possibly one of there busiest times of the day! Just because it's called 'lunchtime' doesn't mean everyone has to have lunch then...

- All this from every staff member - it needs to be the culture of the company that all the above is adhered to.

Surely that's not too much to ask?

PeeJay

11th April 2010, 05:21

A charge out rate of $80 means the mechanic is recieving around $30 per hour. I would be suspicious of a mechanic who is prepared to work for less than that. Alternatively the shop is not charging enough to meet overheads and I would question how long they will remain in business to back up their service.

If mechanic works for less than $30 an hr you think there is something wrong with him?
$62400 per annum before overtime? 25 sat mornings another $4500
$67000
4 weeks holidays
12 stat holidays
I should get more for the specialist qualifications I have, lets say another $5 an hour.
$78050 per annum

I'm all giddy with anticipation
this is like winning lotto

where do I sign up??

PeeJay

11th April 2010, 05:42

this is exactly the attitude I was referring to, despite me being there and waiting for over an hour (i remember this cos i was bored for 30 mins, the other was spent looking at the fancy bikes on the showroom :D), this plonker tries to tell me it didn't take that long. WOFs are a flat rate item so it doesn't matter how long it takes you get billed the same, or are you going to tell me I somehow got billed for more than I paid too?

Wofs are a flat rate item? a shop can charge what they like for an inspection.
So you had to wait an hour?
A mechanic should have immediately dropped everything he was doing to do your bike?
Some one else turns up they should stop doing your bike and start on the next one?
Shops should have a designated wof mechanic who just waits around for wofs to turn up, that way no waiting.

PeeJay

11th April 2010, 06:05

So customers wants
Extended opening hours especially weekends and perhaps a late night or 2 during the week
hold a large amount of stock
pricing similar to the internet
knowledgable, friendly staff with excellent product knowledge, no plmples or people who wear hats backwards allowed
Workshop charge out rate lower but in some cases higher(i dont believe that one)
Mechanics should be qualified, experienced, with excellent product knowledge
Loan bikes and scooters for customers who have to wait for their wofs
Loan bikes and scooters for customers who drop their bikes in for repair (apparently this wont cost much)
Extended workshop hours for those customers with a busy lifestyle
As a senior highly qualified mechanic, call me a technician or even an ENGINEER, pay me a base of $73000.
PS For $73000 you get to call me whatever you like.

sidecar bob

11th April 2010, 10:15

I bet none of the experts have recieved company tax bills just willy nilly either.
I have a late model BMW car, & if anybody dares to give me shit about it i will tell them that it cost me 3 (yes three) percent of the tax my company will pay over the period i plan to own it.

bogan

11th April 2010, 10:38

Wofs are a flat rate item? a shop can charge what they like for an inspection.
So you had to wait an hour?
A mechanic should have immediately dropped everything he was doing to do your bike?
Some one else turns up they should stop doing your bike and start on the next one?
Shops should have a designated wof mechanic who just waits around for wofs to turn up, that way no waiting.

The shop can charge whatever they like for an inspection, but its almost always a value agreed upon beforehand, hence the flatrate where time isn't a factor. Also, the wof was booked, so they knew it'd be there at 9, they also knew I would be waiting around. My suggestion (thats what this thread is all about btw) was that a courtesy vehicle would be handy in such situations, that way the service dept could take as long as they want on/getting to my wof, and I could get on with what I needed to do. And how much would it cost to have a courtesy scooter, rego is fuck all, fuel is fuck all, maintenance is fuck all, insurance I'm not sure about though, that would probably be the main issue unless the bike shop had some policy that covers that sort of thing.

Virago

11th April 2010, 10:50

Someone suggests that bike shops need to be more competitive with their prices compared to what you can purchase overseas.
Someone else suggests that the hourly rate charged out is too low and that businesess rely on 'large'margins in parts to survive.
Someone suggest that the true charge out rate should be $200. Someone suggests that it should be$100. Countered by it should be $200, but even at $100 the market won't support it.
Someone suggests that it cost a lot more than we think to run a business. Someone else agrees and wonders how they even survive.

So can someone explain to me exactly how bike shops should keep their doors open, be competitive with prices available online, and keep their charge out rate at the current level. I'm all ears. Or in this case, eyes.

It's easy enough to juggle figures to come up with "facts" to suit oneself.

The suggestion that it costs $200 an hour to employ a mechanic is rather silly. If it was true, there wouldn't be a bike service shop left trading.

A general rule of thumb in service industries is that the tradesman's charge-out rate should be between 3 to 4 times his hourly rate. Where that figure falls in that 3-4 times range depends on his expected productivity rate, i.e. his normal ratio of chargeable hours. For a mechanic on $25.00 an hour, that would equate to a mimimum charge-out rate of $75.00, preferably higher. At $75.00, he would be pressured to produce 30+ hours of chargeable work a week.

If the business can't survive at those rates, then the problems lie elsewhere in the costing and overhead structure.

Katman

11th April 2010, 11:16

Interesting that no-ones chosen to reply to post #59.

Owl

11th April 2010, 11:25

Interesting that no-ones chosen to reply to post #59.

I will, though you may be disappointed.

Nothing unfair or unreasonable about your post!

2wheeldrifter

11th April 2010, 11:47

Interesting that no-ones chosen to reply to post #59.

Your post 59 has NO relevance to this thread.

And the customer is always right :)

Katman

11th April 2010, 11:58

I will, though you may be disappointed.

Nothing unfair or unreasonable about your post!

And bear in mind that those are only some of the gripes I've personally experienced many times in the 5 short years that I've had my own business (that would only be a tenth of the size of most bike shops). Imagine the frequency with which they happen in the big shops.

bogan

11th April 2010, 12:04

Interesting that no-ones chosen to reply to post #59.

I agree with Owl, nothing unreasonable there, in fact the lending of tools sounds like super good service!

Now we've conceded to your suggestions, will you do the same for us?

Katman

11th April 2010, 12:22

I agree with Owl, nothing unreasonable there, in fact the lending of tools sounds like super good service!

Now we've conceded to your suggestions, will you do the same for us?

I don't have to concede to anything.

I'm confident my business lives up to (or exceeds) all reasonable expectations from my customers.

Pussy

11th April 2010, 12:28

I don't have to concede to anything.

I'm confident my business lives up to all reasonable expectations from my customers.
It helps that the owner of the business has integrity! YOU deserve your success

jellywrestler

11th April 2010, 12:43

It's a little dumb thing, but I really like it when I walk into a shop and am greeted by my name.

.
thats easy, join ulysses and you'll get a name badge

vifferman

11th April 2010, 12:51

PeeJay

11th April 2010, 14:34

I don't mind the shop owner making a good profit, .
BS
This is the nub of the problem.
Most people cant stand the thought of someone "making money" off them.
Most people look at that profit as how much they are being overcharged
NZ has turned into a country of cheapskates. The warehouse has set the bar.
We import cheap s/h cars no one else wants
We import cheap s/h bikes no one else wants
We import cheap goods which have wrecked any local manufacturing we have had.
We export trees and then let someone else turn them into cheap timber and buy them back
We sell anything thats not nailed down
And thats why we get on the internet and buy from some anonymous entity.
All we care about is "how much does it cost"

A shop can do what it likes, open 24/7 highly educated staff everywhere stock levels to Africa but if the prices arent cheap customers will go elsewhere.
You wont care if the salesman is a dumbass if the price is right.
Thats why the warehouse is succesful

sidecar bob

11th April 2010, 14:44

That reminds me of a bloke that was having a whinge on here a while back that he discovered that the dealer was MAKING $1500 profit on the B King he was about to buy ( only because he snuck a look at the dealers computer) If the dealer was making $1500 profit on it he would need a mark up of at least $3500 minimum on it.
Note, mark up & profit are not the same thing.
Sure, if you buy a busted bike on trademe & tidy it up at home in your spare time it may be, but not in a business situation.

Scorp

11th April 2010, 15:41

Well, I haven't been at this long enough to comment as authoritatively as some people, but I have got a view on the internet vs dealer issue and dealer margins. I don't expect my local dealer to beat the internet on price, and frankly I'm happy to may more for their advice. Why? for the added value you don't get when buying online.

Just yesterday I bought a Shoei Raid II helmet and a pair of Gaerne G-Duke boots off my local dealer. Unlike the internet, the guy at the bike shop helped me with proper sizing, let me try the products on, experience wearing them and walk around a bit and chatted away openly and honestly with me about the purchase decision I was making.

I'm also aware of the fact that I'm building a relationship with people who I know will give me good advice in the future. There's no way I'll squander that by getting their advice then shopping for a better deal online. You get what you pay for. And I was happy to pay for the advice, service, and products I got.

If I had just gone on the internet now and found the same gear for $100 less, I would not have felt stupid, or ripped off. I'd still feel happier paying more for the personal service. However, I have just gone online and checked, and the best Online Store prices I can find for these products totals NZ$805 without postage and packaging. And as it turns out, that's $50 more than the deal I got my local bike shop! So I'm very happy.

I have also just bought some leathers online from 1Tonne. I did this because their gear had the product features I wanted at the right price. However, I would have been happier buying them from a shop where I could hold the gear, feel it and try it on. (May still happen if I'm not happy with 1Tonne's gear when it arrives!)

So for me, personally, all I really expect from a dealer is added value in the form of quality advice, service and personal trust. If I get that, I'm happy to pay for it. And will continue doing so.

Anyone who thinks they can get that advice (for free) then buy off the internet is just taking the piss out of their dealer, and one day will probably get the piss taken back.

bogan

11th April 2010, 16:11

A shop can do what it likes, open 24/7 highly educated staff everywhere stock levels to Africa but if the prices arent cheap customers will go elsewhere.
You wont care if the salesman is a dumbass if the price is right.
Thats why the warehouse is succesful

So don't you think bike shops should offer more competitive pricing? I'm still very curious as to how much the parts sales subsidize the rest of the shop, as it seems like a bad idea to have any subsidization at all.

Anyone who thinks they can get that advice (for free) then buy off the internet is just taking the piss out of their dealer, and one day will probably get the piss taken back.

I agree with that, don't go to a dealers and try on their stuff to get it somewhere else, don't ask parts advice then get it cheaper somewhere else. But you can also get advice off the internet, it's not always good :p kb is a good example. And for parts I know exactly what I want, and can easily find the part numbers for them (genuine honda usually) which I give to the dealer anyway, so I wouldn't get any added value from a dealer for the 50% extra I may have to pay.

Katman

11th April 2010, 16:19

I'm still very curious as to how much the parts sales subsidize the rest of the shop,

Motorcycle businesses live or die on the strength of their workshop.

Profit from bike sales or parts will not cut it.

bogan

11th April 2010, 16:27

Motorcycle businesses live or die on the strength of their workshop.

Profit from bike sales or parts will not cut it.

:confused: So is there no subsidization occurring at all then?

Katman

11th April 2010, 16:38

:confused: So is there no subsidization occurring at all then?

RRP is not set by the business at the coalface.

If shops sell above the RRP they stand to suffer the wrath of customers who are searching for the cheapest deal.

If they sell below the RRP they risk instigating a pricing war that will see the industry collapse in upon itself.

bogan

11th April 2010, 16:42

RRP is not set by the business at the coalface.

If shops sell above the RRP they stand to suffer to wrath of customers who are searching for the cheapest deal.

If they sell below the RRP they risk instigating a pricing war that will see the industry collapse in upon itself.

Not really answering my question though. And you forgot one:

If the industry does nothing, people will continue to buy parts from overseas.

Katman

11th April 2010, 16:47

people will continue to buy parts from overseas.

Good luck to them when that purchase turns to shit.

bogan

11th April 2010, 17:08

Good luck to them when that purchase turns to shit.

and good luck to you once people realize that many sites have good returns policy in such cases.

So conquiztador, not a lot of new ideas coming out anymore, how you gonna open your shop?

Katman

11th April 2010, 17:13

So conquiztador, not a lot of new ideas coming out anymore, how you gonna open your shop?

With a crowbar?

Conquiztador

11th April 2010, 17:26

Good luck to them when that purchase turns to shit.

That's the spirit. "We have done it like this for 50 years. Nobody is gonna come and tell us what we should do. And certainly not the customers!" (Remids me of a old pommy logic that killed all they did...)

Just because you, at this moment, can't se the answer does not mean that there is not one. I will now digress (diversify?) from my initial purpose of this thread, but I recon it is needed...To me it sounds like all NZ bike shops are facing the same problem: "Private overseas purchases are killing us". So what are you, the industry, doing about it? I tell you what it looks like: You are burying your heads in the sand. Your pigheaded attitude will only have one outcome: You be part of the history. To blame the customers, the government, GST, the Easter Bunny is easy. But will not fix the problem!

Just one from top of my head: If all bikeshops in the country are facing the same issues, why not solve it together? Set up a central importer that only the registered shops can get bits/supplies from. Run this importer as extension of the shops. A setup that all will contribute to (in whatever parts that is decided) and make it a setup that only needs to cover costs, not make any profit. Why rely on a privately owned importer that fucks you around? You guys have the power, use it!

Now I will sit back and get the normal shit why it can not be done, why I am stoopid, and why I could never even find my way outta a paperbag.... But instead of shooting me down, try to look at the other angle: how could we achieve this?

To the shop owners: The writing is on the wall. If you do nothing you are dead. So what are you gonna do about it?

Conquiztador

11th April 2010, 17:37

With a crowbar?

:slap:Standup comedian material! Long as you are a vegetarian you be able to live on the rotten tomatoes rest of your life.

Tony.OK

11th April 2010, 17:37

Alot of shop's have no say in what they charge, or should I say price they advertise, that is set by the wholesalers in alot of cases. I know Honda dealers are not allowed to advertise at what ever price they want, its Bluewing that sets the price.

eg....shop has to buy bike from wholesaler/importer for xx amount, then 2 months later the wholesaler decides to have special pricing, all the shop's now have to lower their prices (reduce their margin) giving them even less to play with........when there's only $1500-$2000 in say a $20k+ bike thats buggar all to play with when the outlay has been made already. And then they are expected to give top dollar for a trade in..........its pretty tight.

I feel a bit sorry for the shops really, its the wholesalers that dictate alot of what goes on in NZ but the shop ends up taking all the flack.

Case in point..........some OEM front pads for my Blade, retail is near $380 for 2 pairs for the front, my local knocks it down to only a 10% markup............still costs $260 for 2 pair. I can get them from US for $100NZ delivered for 2 pairs, thats retail too, thats a decent chunk of difference that goes to Bluewing. And thats for just a set of pads, common amongst many models, I don't mind paying a premium for the service I get from my shop, but their hands are tied in some cases when things are just too dear to start with before they even get it to the shop.

Katman

11th April 2010, 17:45

That's the spirit. "We have done it like this for 50 years. Nobody is gonna come and tell us what we should do. And certainly not the customers!" (Remids me of a old pommy logic that killed all they did...)

Ok retard. If you're told that New Zealand businesses cannot compete solely on price with the WWW, what are you going to do about it?

Happily condemn every New Zealand motorcycle business?

Start your own business that would last six months (if you're lucky)?

Continue to buy overseas until you get sick of being shafted without the means to gain any recourse through the Consumers Guarantee Act?

sidecar bob

11th April 2010, 17:47

..............
So, nobody wants very much as usual, no $80 per hour bullshit, courtesy bikes for menial 15 minute jobs, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of parts stock for outdated models, a full stock of riding gear in all sizes to try on so they can be bought off the net, etc etc.
Most of the "experts" here would go broke trying to sell ice creams, let alone a multi faceted highly skilled operation with huge overheads.

That's the spirit. "We have done it like this for 50 years. Nobody is gonna come and tell us what we should do. And certainly not the customers!" (Remids me of a old pommy logic that killed all they did...)

Just because you, at this moment, can't se the answer does not mean that there is not one. I will now digress (diversify?) from my initial purpose of this thread, but I recon it is needed...To me it sounds like all NZ bike shops are facing the same problem: "Private overseas purchases are killing us". So what are you, the industry, doing about it? I tell you what it looks like: You are burying your heads in the sand. Your pigheaded attitude will only have one outcome: You be part of the history. To blame the customers, the government, GST, the Easter Bunny is easy. But will not fix the problem!

Just one from top of my head: If all bikeshops in the country are facing the same issues, why not solve it together? Set up a central importer that only the registered shops can get bits/supplies from. Run this importer as extension of the shops. A setup that all will contribute to (in whatever parts that is decided) and make it a setup that only needs to cover costs, not make any profit. Why rely on a privately owned importer that fucks you around? You guys have the power, use it!

Now I will sit back and get the normal shit why it can not be done, why I am stoopid, and why I could never even find my way outta a paperbag.... But instead of shooting me down, try to look at the other angle: how could we achieve this?

To the shop owners: The writing is on the wall. If you do nothing you are dead. So what are you gonna do about it?
Well, i say this with not a hint of sarcasm. Buy yourself a sick, tired shop, run it to youre fantastic plan & live the dream. You have all the ideas & im sure they will work. May you retire to the Bahamas in ten years a wealthy & satisfied man.

Conquiztador

11th April 2010, 17:47

Ok retard. If you're told that New Zealand businesses cannot compete solely on price with the WWW, what are you going to do about it?

Happily condemn every New Zealand motorcycle business?

Start your own business that would last six months (if you're lucky)?

Continue to buy overseas until you get sick of being shafted without the means to gain any recourse through the Consumers Guarantee Act?

Ah FFS. Go away. Take your meds or jump of a cliff or something.

Conquiztador

11th April 2010, 17:50

..............

Yep. You wrote that first one. And I wrote the second one. Your point is? (You want an ice cream???)

sidecar bob

11th April 2010, 17:53

Ah FFS. Go away. Take your meds or jump of a cliff or something.
But he runs a bike shop & i run a car shop, we've learned a couple of things between us along the way.
What do you do for a job? nobody seems to know.

sidecar bob

11th April 2010, 17:56

Yep. You wrote that first one. And I wrote the second one. Your point is? (You want an ice cream???)

Yep, im hungry.
You cant quote a huge post on here without the thing jumping around, so i did that & then edited it, cool aye?

bogan

11th April 2010, 17:56

Just one from top of my head: If all bikeshops in the country are facing the same issues, why not solve it together? Set up a central importer that only the registered shops can get bits/supplies from. Run this importer as extension of the shops. A setup that all will contribute to (in whatever parts that is decided) and make it a setup that only needs to cover costs, not make any profit. Why rely on a privately owned importer that fucks you around? You guys have the power, use it!

Sounds like a good plan, greater buying power, cuts down on the freight costs we pay to get parts from online shops so should be able to have competitive pricing. Also sounds like the whole industry would need to change their RRP's and way of doing things though.

Big Dave

11th April 2010, 18:15

'Chance of a lifetime.'

Tui with that, Sir?

Katman

11th April 2010, 18:19

Why rely on a privately owned importer that fucks you around? You guys have the power, use it!

You have no fucking clue.

Mom

11th April 2010, 18:19

You cant quote a huge post on here without the thing jumping around, so i did that & then edited it, cool aye?

Yeah you can. Just use the go advanced tab and you can tke your time replying and edit a large post at your lesuire :yes:

Bills in the mail :D

Conquiztador

11th April 2010, 18:20

Yep, im hungry.
You cant quote a huge post on here without the thing jumping around, so i did that & then edited it, cool aye?

All well. Did not have the posting by you when I replied.

I don't want a bike shop. But I would like the ones that are operating to stay alive. (Yep, even Pratman even if he sends me secret negative rep asking me to fornicate with my self...) But if you guys keep on doing what you are doing and hoping that all will go back to how it was in the past, then you are dead. The shops in NZ have to realise that they need to change! Customers are knowing more. You can't get away with BS anymore.

Here an idea: Get George (I think its what the Doctor in Auckland is called) to hold a short seminar for you guys re how he is so well respected and has only positive feedback. Then put your heads together and try to figure out how to beat this monster. (No, not George...)

Conquiztador

11th April 2010, 18:22

You have no fucking clue.

Past your bedtime! Nitey, sleep tight!

Conquiztador

11th April 2010, 18:24

'Chance of a lifetime.'

Tui with that, Sir?

You are too intelligent for that. Must have been someone using your profile...

PeeJay

11th April 2010, 18:26

That's the spirit.

Set up a central importer that only the registered shops can get bits/supplies from. Run this importer as extension of the shops. A setup that all will contribute to (in whatever parts that is decided) and make it a setup that only needs to cover costs, not make any profit.

Sounds like a wholesaler who doesnt make a profit.
Or a co-op?
Maybe you are a closet commie? let the government run it

I guess the unregistered shops will have to get on the internet if they want something

Conquiztador

11th April 2010, 18:27

What do you do for a job? nobody seems to know.

Not important here. A small organisation with 70 staff.

Katman

11th April 2010, 18:31

Past your bedtime! Nitey, sleep tight!

I often get motorcycles that originate from the HB in my shop. With many, the standard of butchery needs to be seen to be believed.

I always find myself wondering if it's your handiwork.

Big Dave

11th April 2010, 18:38

>> You are too intelligent for that. .<<

Nah. I just know the margins.

Conquiztador

11th April 2010, 18:38

I often get motorcycles that originate from the HB in my shop. With many, the standard of butchery needs to be seen to be believed.

I always find myself wondering if it's your handiwork.

Now you are just being pathetic. And as normally contributing nothing. Go away.

Conquiztador

11th April 2010, 18:43

>> You are too intelligent for that. .<<

Nah. I just know the margins.

I have an idea too. As a result you would realise that if nothing changes there will only be a few big shops splattered around the country. Like what happened with supermarkets, Mitre 10's etc. Perhaps is just the way of the future? A "Bike N' Save" or a "Bike 10 Mega" in a city where there is more than 70,000 people. The others will be like the small towns today: No Post offices, no banks. Dying.

bogan

11th April 2010, 18:49

So anyhu, mindless insults aside, do you reckon a online shop could be set up in NZ which provides competitive pricing to those overseas (taking both GST and Postage into account). By my reckoning it would be preferable to start of with a bang, so it would have the buying power to get parts direct from the manufacturers, but said bang would only come from the motorcycling industry getting parts from there so it would need to be competitively priced for them as well, and they would also want to change to this new approach.

Perhaps and easier strategy would be to just mirror the stock available at other online stores, and place bulk orders to keep the freight costs down, the savings on freight costs then pay off the local postage and GST. Thoughts? (not insults, long walks off short piers are recommended for curing such behavior)

Katman

11th April 2010, 18:53

Perhaps and easier strategy would be to just mirror the stock available at other online stores, and place bulk orders to keep the freight costs down, the savings on freight costs then pay off the local postage and GST. Thoughts? (not insults, long walks off short piers are recommended for curing such behavior)

Bulk orders cost bulk dollars.

bogan

11th April 2010, 18:58

Bulk orders cost bulk dollars.

yes but if you read my post, bulk orders cost less freight. 10 parts together may cost 75% of 10 parts seperately, ample room for GST and local post

Katman

11th April 2010, 19:01

yes but if you read my post, bulk orders cost less freight. 10 parts together may cost 75% of 10 parts seperately, ample room for GST and local post

So you save $50 on $50000 of parts?

98tls

11th April 2010, 19:06

Motorcycle businesses live or die on the strength of their workshop.

Profit from bike sales or parts will not cut it.

Agreed,spent many years selling Toyotas in Wellington years back,Even with a Brand name as bankable as Toyota the only way the place stayed afloat was through the workshop and used car dept.From memory there was about 12% profit in selling a New one at full retail,very seldom it was done in fact ive seen them sold at a loss if it was say at the end of a 1/4 just to have a sale.

PeeJay

11th April 2010, 19:10

yes but if you read my post, bulk orders cost less freight. 10 parts together may cost 75% of 10 parts seperately, ample room for GST and local post
You dont think thats already been thought of?
Wholesalers already do this.
Warehousing, staff, finance, etc etc etc etc all have to be paid for while these parts are sitting around.
The big online shops in the states actually stock very little.
Drop shipping ex manufacturer or getting stuff in as required.
Thats why it sometimes takes a week before your goods are shipped.
It aint easy when you are 10-15000km away from the manufacturer

Virago

11th April 2010, 19:12

yes but if you read my post, bulk orders cost less freight. 10 parts together may cost 75% of 10 parts seperately, ample room for GST and local post

You would find that in the wholesale market, such large discounts generally don't exist.

Granted there would be some savings in bulk purchases, but these are offset by costs.

You can certainly make savings by purchasing $50,000 in stock, rather than $5,000. But where does the extra $45,000 in capital come from?

bogan

11th April 2010, 19:19

So you save $50 on $50000 of parts?

my example was 75%, dunno how that equated to what you got.

A quick check on a site (all in GBP, but it scales accordingly anyway)

1x part 18.80
1x shipping 13.58
less vat -4.82
27.56 which is 275.60 for 10

10x part 188.00
1x shipping 41.04$
less vat -34.11
194.93

so 10x bulk order you pay 71% of a 10 1x orders.

In this case a saving of $80, 24.36 goes to GST, 10x postage at 5 bucks each (probly overstated as in GBP still but meh) so you still have $5.64 profit, fucking win! Yeh I know theres running and labour cost to add, but just ballparking it looks feasible.

Katman

11th April 2010, 19:29

my example was 75%, dunno how that equated to what you got.

A quick check on a site (all in GBP, but it scales accordingly anyway)

1x part 18.80
1x shipping 13.58
less vat -4.82
27.56 which is 275.60 for 10

10x part 188.00
1x shipping 41.04$
less vat -34.11
194.93

so 10x bulk order you pay 71% of a 10 1x orders.

In this case a saving of $80, 24.36 goes to GST, 10x postage at 5 bucks each (probly overstated as in GBP still but meh) so you still have $5.64 profit, fucking win! Yeh I know theres running and labour cost to add, but just ballparking it looks feasible.

Do you understand the concept of 'sitting on stock'?

sidecar bob

11th April 2010, 19:33

You would find that in the wholesale market, such large discounts generally don't exist.

Granted there would be some savings in bulk purchases, but these are offset by costs.

You can certainly make savings by purchasing $50,000 in stock, rather than $5,000. But where does the extra $45,000 in capital come from?

The standard rule of parts stock for dealerships, is that you only stock stuff that sells at least once a month.
When i was managing the parts division for the local Kubota & Hino dealership, one of my guys cut a deal with the filter supplier for 1000 diesel filters at a small saving without telling anyone, we nearly strangled the cunt when they showed up, me not happy & big boss REALLY not happy.
Stock sitting around for three months is eating you up, it could be money in the bank getting interest, or, if you borrowed the money to buy it, it is costing you to sit on the shelf every day.

Conquiztador

11th April 2010, 19:34

bogan

11th April 2010, 19:37

Do you understand the concept of 'sitting on stock'?

"Up yours" comes to mind... But seriously: You would clearly make sure that it was an item that there would be a turnover on. To buy in 10 Hesket cranks is not the answer...

I should have clarified, 10 parts can be the same part or different ones, I just did the same part cos otherwise it would have tsken ages to research.

Virago

11th April 2010, 19:53

bogan

11th April 2010, 19:54

So, in other words, your research is complete shit?

not at all, it proves that buying more items decreases the total cost of said parts. Or do you want me to do the same with two different items?

bogan

11th April 2010, 19:56

Katman

11th April 2010, 19:59

not at all, it proves that buying more items decreases the total cost of said parts. Or do you want me to do the same with two different items?

The reality is that to carry, in stock, everything that the customer might possibly desire would spell the death of most motocycle businesses.

The best you can do is provide the best selection that you (as a motorcycle business) can afford and offer the customer the fact that if the item isn't there in stock, it can be there the next day (dependant on the availibility from the wholesaler).

BMWST?

11th April 2010, 20:08

So don't you think bike shops should offer more competitive pricing? I'm still very curious as to how much the parts sales subsidize the rest of the shop, as it seems like a bad idea to have any subsidization at all.

The bike shop has to sell its goods and services at a price that covers the costs of the business.So the parts have to (at least) cover the cost of stocking those parts,paying the parts peoples,and the proportion of floor area,electricity ,phone devoted to parts,not just the cost of the part.

bogan

11th April 2010, 20:08

I really couldn't give a fuck how motivated you are to prove your point.

The reality is that to carry, in stock, everything that the customer might possibly desire would spell the death of most motocycle businesses.

Who said everything (or anything at all) would be carried in stock?

The point I'm making is taking into account furthur postage and GST we can get parts into NZ for similar prices to buying from UK to NZ. If this is possible using pricing available to the general public, what could be done with more buying power and going direct to the source?

Conquiztador

11th April 2010, 20:14

The only thing 'fluffy' here is the shit that floats in your brain.
Serously, you do bore me. Now when Robert has finally left this thread (and to his credit he never attacked anyone), you have somehow seen it as your calling to tell everyone why the way it is can not, and should not, be changed. Also you have not got it: This thread was about what the customers wanted, not why fossiles like you don't want to change. Leave, be gone wamosh.

The recurring theme in this thread is that some people who don't work in the motorcycle industry, see themselves as intellectual messiahs, able to revolutionise the industry with their "new" ideas. Are you really so ignorant to actually think that there are no valid reasons why your ideas won't work?

If your simplistic concepts were indeed able to save or improve the trade, you can rest assured that they would already be in practice. In the meantime, at least have the humility to listen to those who have been there, and know the full picture.

If you can't do that, then put your money where your mouth is - show us all how it is done.
This thread was about what customers wanted, what you would do if you had the opportunity to start a shop. nothing more, nothing less. Reality, facts or doomsay does not come in to this. Brainstorming it is called.

Please trade, just read and it is OK if you disagree. In situations where people Brainstorm normally only one or two ideas from hundred are even worth investigating. Please trade ppl, don't be so negative. Nobody here is saying that you are not doing as good as you can. But we also know that times are changing and you are all feeling the pinch. If this thread gives you only one thing that you think "Hmmm...I might look in to that" then it was all worth it. For the last time: I am not criticizing you, I am trying to, help you stay alive.

But if you want to blame me for the Tsunami, smallpox, rabies and melting of the poles, then be my guest,

Virago

11th April 2010, 20:44

...This thread was about what customers wanted, what you would do if you had the opportunity to start a shop. nothing more, nothing less. Reality, facts or doomsay does not come in to this. Brainstorming it is called.

Please trade, just read and it is OK if you disagree. In situations where people Brainstorm normally only one or two ideas from hundred are even worth investigating. Please trade ppl, don't be so negative. Nobody here is saying that you are not doing as good as you can. But we also know that times are changing and you are all feeling the pinch. If this thread gives you only one thing that you think "Hmmm...I might look in to that" then it was all worth it. For the last time: I am not criticizing you, I am trying to, help you stay alive.

But if you want to blame me for the Tsunami, smallpox, rabies and melting of the poles, then be my guest,

I certainly understand the concept of brainstorming. This is Kiwi Biker though, not a staffroom, and illogical suggestions were always going to get jumped on.

For clarity, I don't work in the motorcycle industry. I do though own a service business, and understand the concept of employing tradesmen, setting charge-out rates, juggling margins, stock management, technological advancement, etc, etc, etc. I know enough to understand at least some of the complexities of the bike trade, and to know that there are no easy fixes to perceived customer service and pricing issues. I know enough to know that I wouldn't want to own a motorcycle business.

98tls

11th April 2010, 20:56

Indeed it is Kiwibiker,must say its refreshing to see a thread related to motorcycles to be honest instead of the usual Myspace (or whatever its called) type crap thats all to frequent on a supposedly motorcycle based forum.Its the Interweb ffs theres really no need to jump on so called illogical posts,as its the interweb i would hazard a guess that many doing the jumping know sweet fuck all about what there jumping on anyway much like the bikes they purchased.

bogan

11th April 2010, 21:12

The bike shop has to sell its goods and services at a price that covers the costs of the business.So the parts have to (at least) cover the cost of stocking those parts,paying the parts peoples,and the proportion of floor area,electricity ,phone devoted to parts,not just the cost of the part.

fair enuf too, like how the electronics stores today arent offering as cheap as the internet store, though the difference doesnt seem to be a much as it is for bike parts.

Knock your socks off.

Nah, being an engineer is much more fun than an internet company operator, but it is an idea i would like to see someone else take up, and definitely one I would support.

*trying this again, the last one went to PD

Conquiztador

11th April 2010, 21:54

bogan

11th April 2010, 22:02

PD yes... Right, we are back on track.

What I do find entriguing here is that the trade is telling the customers that they have no idea. That they should pay high prises to the NZ shops for often below average service as that is the way it is and will stay. No wonder the customers are up in arms! And then when there are ideas (good or bad) they are shot down ASAP using years of trade experience and known barriers. Makes me wonder if a couple of guys from some other industry that is already used to the global market cold do it differently?

Well with the attitudes displayed in this (and other) threads I wouldn't be too surprised, and it'll be interesting to see what does happen. But I think by now all the ideas in this thread have been discussed enough, so now all we can do is wait; or if you have the opportunity, do something about it.

Swoop

11th April 2010, 22:04

What makes a good... no, a PERFECT shop?

Two things:
Honesty,
Communication.

The first should speak for itself. If a shop cannot comprehend that then they should not be in business.

Communication. A major issue for some shops.

Motomail and Cycletreads appear to have realised this.

98tls

11th April 2010, 22:18

PD yes... Right, we are back on track.

What I do find entriguing here is that the trade is telling the customers that they have no idea. That they should pay high prises to the NZ shops for often below average service as that is the way it is and will stay. No wonder the customers are up in arms! And then when there are ideas (good or bad) they are shot down ASAP using years of trade experience and known barriers. Makes me wonder if a couple of guys from some other industry that is already used to the global market cold do it differently?

Fwiw awhile back a bloke in Stralia that works/own whatever a Warehouse type bike related outfit posted up on here,fuck me the replies were similar to those i would expect to someone asking to shag your mrs,made a point of asking some of the Stralians on the TL site if they had dealt with them and what did they think,all came back with very positive comments regarding what they could buy/the price/delivery times and if there interweb service was better than what they got down at the local franchise.Not to mention they didnt have to deal with someone wearing more pimples on there face than hairs on there sack.

R-Soul

11th April 2010, 22:19

This was done to death in teh other thread and ll my ideas are on there, so I wont repeat them.

jellywrestler

11th April 2010, 22:26

To buy in 10 Hesket cranks is not the answer...
whats a Hesket?

98tls

11th April 2010, 22:31

whats a Hesket?

Its a Hesketh with one H,the 2nd H was found to to have a suspect oil pump so was subsequently dropped.

Conquiztador

11th April 2010, 22:40

Fwiw awhile back a bloke in Stralia that works/own whatever a Warehouse type bike related outfit posted up on here,fuck me the replies were similar to those i would expect to someone asking to shag your mrs,made a point of asking some of the Stralians on the TL site if they had dealt with them and what did they think,all came back with very positive comments regarding what they could buy/the price/delivery times and if there interweb service was better than what they got down at the local franchise.Not to mention they didnt have to deal with someone wearing more pimples on there face than hairs on there sack.

I have never been to the shop of Econohonda. But if I want some Honda bits, they are the ones I contact. Friendly, has bits, fast and has knowledge. Add to that good prices.

Big Dave

12th April 2010, 08:44

>>No wonder the customers are up in arms!<<

People who like to complain on the internet are 'up in arms'.

I'm very satisfied with my current choice of suppliers.

Robert Taylor

12th April 2010, 08:44

Who said everything (or anything at all) would be carried in stock?

The point I'm making is taking into account furthur postage and GST we can get parts into NZ for similar prices to buying from UK to NZ. If this is possible using pricing available to the general public, what could be done with more buying power and going direct to the source?

Because you CANNOT buy direct from the source, you need to begin to understand distribution.

Bear in mind that sterling and greenbacks are currently very weak. When in the future that get back to their more taditional levels ( or our dollar weakens ) a lot of your arguments will haed more toawards being academic.

Robert Taylor

12th April 2010, 08:48

Not at all, but the valid reasons have been absent so far

Bollocks, many valid reasons have been put forward. There are also those of us who can see both sides of the story

Robert Taylor

12th April 2010, 09:01

Agreed,spent many years selling Toyotas in Wellington years back,Even with a Brand name as bankable as Toyota the only way the place stayed afloat was through the workshop and used car dept.From memory there was about 12% profit in selling a New one at full retail,very seldom it was done in fact ive seen them sold at a loss if it was say at the end of a 1/4 just to have a sale.

Another point that has largely been overlooked is that we only have 4 million people, and ( seemingly ) half of them are on welfare. We dont have economy of scale because we dont have people! If you overstock on a certain line of product that doesnt sell well the consequences can be a whole load more costly than in a large economy where you have more people to ''buffer the risk''

Also, look at the large amounts of capital involved to have a huge inventory, this would be dependent on the business owner having a huge amount of his / her own capital as no bank would take such a huge risk. And anyone with a huge amount of capital would certainly not be risking it in a low margin and fickle , small economy. There are a lot easier and less risky ways to make a return on your capital

Valid reasons, yes plenty of them

bogan

12th April 2010, 09:05

Bollocks, many valid reasons have been put forward. There are also those of us who can see both sides of the story

If theres a valid reason, It'll change mind mind, I haven't, so there isn't.

Because you CANNOT buy direct from the source, you need to begin to understand distribution.

Bear in mind that sterling and greenbacks are currently very weak. When in the future that get back to their more taditional levels ( or our dollar weakens ) a lot of your arguments will haed more toawards being academic.

Yeh I don't really understand distribution, heres a nice simple question for those that do, could a company be set up in NZ which buys parts from the same people that wemoto.com buys from? and if not why not?

Robert Taylor

12th April 2010, 09:11

If theres a valid reason, It'll change mind mind, I haven't, so there isn't.

Yeh I don't really understand distribution, heres a nice simple question for those that do, could a company be set up in NZ which buys parts from the same people that wemoto.com buys from? and if not why not?

Because its up to the manufacturers. We are an insignificant little country at the bottom of the world and dont have any muscle. Have you travelled a lot overseas? If so you will know that.

imdying

12th April 2010, 09:26

Another point that has largely been overlooked is that we only have 4 million people, and ( seemingly ) half of them are on welfare. We dont have economy of scale because we dont have people! If you overstock on a certain line of product that doesnt sell well the consequences can be a whole load more costly than in a large economy where you have more people to ''buffer the risk''

Also, look at the large amounts of capital involved to have a huge inventory, this would be dependent on the business owner having a huge amount of his / her own capital as no bank would take such a huge risk. And anyone with a huge amount of capital would certainly not be risking it in a low margin and fickle , small economy. There are a lot easier and less risky ways to make a return on your capital

Valid reasons, yes plenty of themExactly why nobody in NZ should be selling any of this gear.

Robert Taylor

12th April 2010, 09:44

Exactly why nobody in NZ should be selling any of this gear.

I creited you with more intelligence unless you are doing a wind up. Whos going to be left to turn the lights out?

bogan

12th April 2010, 09:54

imdying

12th April 2010, 10:07

I creited you with more intelligence unless you are doing a wind up. Whos going to be left to turn the lights out?Oh course it's a wind up... conincidentally, I credited you with far more intelligence than to waste your time hijacking what was never dressed up as anything but a pub racing fantasy thread.

imdying

12th April 2010, 10:09

I realize we are very small compared with other countries, but I figured NZ would still have enough trade to get significantly better prices than those available to the public anyway.No. I've been to a single store in CA that had 300 different Pazzo levers in stock. In stock. 300 of them. In one store. In a city with over 100 stores.

I'll say it slowly so you guys can put it to bed and let the guys have their fun in a thread that should have been nothing but. Nooooooo weeee caaaaaaan't.

T.W.R

12th April 2010, 10:23

Alot of shop's have no say in what they charge,eg....shop has to buy bike from wholesaler/importer for xx amount, then 2 months later the wholesaler decides to have special pricing, all the shop's now have to lower their prices (reduce their margin) giving them even less to play with........when there's only $1500-$2000 in say a $20k+ bike thats buggar all to play with when the outlay has been made already. And then they are expected to give top dollar for a trade in..........its pretty tight.

Not totally correct....... kawasaki dealership/franchise yep each month you place an order of what you want, x items at wholesale price, recieve the shipment then have x amount of time to front up with payment for x items. In the interim the dealership has the difference between RRP & wholesale as their profit margin to work with and it's tough pigeon if Lyntech decide to have a price reduction on those items which will further reduce the dealerships possibility of a reasonable profit. Most other marques have no transferal of cash for items until they're sold by the franchise so there's no profit or loss until the item is off the shop floor.

All dealerships have access to any of the wholesale distributors for aftermarket items, it's up to the dealership whether or not they want to deal with certain wholesalers. Some wholesale distributors are very easy to deal with and some are as useless tits on a bull.
And due to this some dealerships take the attitude that it's too much hassle to source items from a particular wholesaler even though a customer has asked for a particular item..... customer comes into shop asked for said item, shop says yep will source this, once customer has left says naff that to much of a headache get blah blah instead, item arrives customer returns gets spun some bollock story and is left with a take secondary item or go elsewhere or source original requested item under their own steam.

Same boat with certain bikes that arrive in the workshop for certain jobs....some dealerships just can't be naffed putting in the effort.......so called technicians see a repairable item can't really be bothered actually doing a repair and just throw in a complete new unit........ item could easily been repaired for x amount but a total replacement will cost xx amount take less time and increase the profit margin for the shop. A lot of what are considered top line technicians aren't a proper mechanics arse, they may know it all on paper but rarely seriously get their hands dirty, though a lot of it boils down to the restraints the shop owner puts on them (time is money) and all the firendly firendly interaction towards customers disappears when the customer isn't in sight, it's just a case of baffle them and they'll keep coming back. Most shops couldn't give a monkeys..... if one customer heads elsewhere there'll be another along shortly to replace him

IdunBrokdItAgin

12th April 2010, 11:03

Very similar to a thread I started asking a simple question about why bike shops opening hours are different than other retailers. It was the most fustrating but most enlightening thread I have ever started.

To summarise that whole thread:
Bike Industry: yes they could open longer hours but that just spreads the same amount of sales across a longer period and the longer period equates to higher running costs.

Customer: the extended opening hours would result in more sales - due to a large majority of potential customers unable to make it to bike shops in the present opening hours.

Outcome: neither side agreed but it was educational. The bike brand distributor rules mean that the market is oversaturated in terms of seperate shops. NZ popoulation not big enough to support so many individual shops.
Quite a few customers cited a new breed of shops that weren't linked to bike brands that were adopting new business models in Auckland (Cycletreads/ deus ex). However, the population size differential in auckland meant that their business models might not be appropriate outside of the main centres.

At the end of the thread there was quite a good bit of brainstorming around what would constitute a good shop (from a customers point of view).

Unfortuantely, probably due to feeling a bit villified - industry posters generally challenge any post from a non bike industry poster as to the lack of realism for implementation purposes. Sometimes these arguments get really silly: I lost count of how many people kept saying "bikes shops can't open 24/7 that's just crazy" to the original question of "why aren't they open for longer at the weekends?".

This seems to be happening in this thread as well. As far as I could tell th OP was asking for a customers point of view on what the perfect bike shop is. He is not trying to piss off the bike industry posters. I know he can't stop bike industry people posting, but he did politely ask for them not to.

Would have made sense if the end "good" ideas from this thread could have be followed up in a seperate thread for the industry related posters take on the feasibility of implementation.

I personally can agree with a bit of both sides, customers will always want more, and no industry should allow the customer to dictate everything.

I think anyone can sympathise with the bike industry people. If someone came into my world with shallow knowledge of it and dared to express an opinion then I'll tell them to take that opinion elsewhere.
But, you can't blame the customer for asking for more - expect it and play nicely when they do - insults just piss off posters and everyone else who reads thm, and perpetuate a image (rightly or wrongly) of an industry that doesn't value the opinion of its customers.

Apologies for the long post.

Back on topic - If I had a bike shop I would scrap the discount card given to purchasers of bikes from that shop. This just lets everyone else know that they are getting a worse deal than anyone who bought a bike from there (when buying anything else such as parts or accessories).
It also makes any sales, to non bike purchasers, prone to the customer wanting to haggle as they already know that the shop is willing to give upto 10% discsount to some of their customers. It effectively creates a two tier customer system.

There - that should get the ball rolling again.

Katman

12th April 2010, 11:30

It also makes any sales, to non bike purchasers, prone to the customer wanting to haggle as they already know that the shop is willing to give upto 10% discsount to some of their customers.

That happens all the time already.

I had a customer looking for a pair of boots. He looked at a couple of different brands that I had in stock - one priced at $200, the other at $400.

He prefered the more expensive pair and said that he'd buy them if I did them at the same price as the cheaper brand.

He didn't seem to grasp the idea that different boots cost the shop different prices and for me to sell them at the price of the cheaper pair would have meant me selling them at well below cost.

bogan

12th April 2010, 11:55

Because its up to the manufacturers. We are an insignificant little country at the bottom of the world and dont have any muscle. Have you travelled a lot overseas? If so you will know that.

So thats a No then, and I take it that means the like of wemoto.com buy directly from the manufacturer?

I realize we are very small compared with other countries, but I figured NZ would still have enough trade to get significantly better prices than those available to the public anyway.

So it turns out its not a no, as wemoto buys from a wholesaler which offers international services, and with numbers like 2kg orders mentioned I'm guessing NZ has the buying power to buy from them right? Which begs the question, was your post; deliberately misleading, uninformed, or something else I've missed?

Tony.OK

12th April 2010, 12:11

avgas

12th April 2010, 12:28

I want the ability to take photos of the motorbikes.
Thanks a fucking lot Deus Ex Machina Auckland

IdunBrokdItAgin

12th April 2010, 12:37

Regarding 24/7 hours.................have a think about it.

Other shops that are open every day are attracting a completely different market. Say Harvey Normans for eg, how much of the population buys/wants TV's etc?........pretty much the whole adult population.

What percentage of NZ in comparison is interested in bikes etc.............be lucky if it were 5%, hardly seems reasonable to expect a shop to be open and possibly paying penal rates for 1 or 2 sales, when those sales more than likely would be during the week anyway.

Just a thought.

Valid thought but lets not relitigate that on this thread.

If you want to read through the bike shop opening hours thread (590 posts) then here is the linky:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/119165-Can-anyone-tell-me-why-bike-shops-only-open-for-half-a-day-on-Sunday

DMNTD

12th April 2010, 13:16

Most important to me is good,friendly service and welcoming atmosphere.
An educated workshop and a thorough stock of regularly used parts and accessories. A willingness to at least attempt to gain whatever it may be that I am after and if not able...to point me in the right direction without attitude.
I don't expect big discounts etc, however if I am about to drop $1,000+ of some gear in a shop then some love would be appreciated and reciprocated by returning to spend some more of my money.

Regarding opening hours...6 days per week is absolutely fine as long as they have a late night and are open most of Saturday too.

Since being involved with the motorcycle industry(sales) for the past 2 years I have seen the other side of the coin so to speak. I do however believe that a customer deserves the above...at least.

nosebleed

12th April 2010, 13:25

I want the ability to take photos of the motorbikes.
Thanks a fucking lot Deus Ex Machina Auckland

Really? Thats new then, I've got photo's from not long after they first opened. No-one minded when I took them.

cowboyz

12th April 2010, 13:36

i havent bothered reading through everything... but from a bike shop... I would like competitive prices. Staff that know there stuff and mechanics who pay attention and do a good job, first time, every time.

its not the putting right that counts... Its the reliability that the work done will be done of a high standard every time.

Katman

12th April 2010, 14:17

And another thing.........

I rang the local Suzuki dealer today to get a price on the spider gear assembly for the front diff on a 10 year old LTF500. (A part that I would consider a fair price to be around $300-$400). I was told that Suzuki NZ's retail price was $790. Ten minutes after getting over that shock and phoning the customer to get his go-ahead, I had a phone call back from the dealer to say that he'd since found out that that was Suzuki NZ's old price. The new price is now $1400. I politely told him Suzuki NZ could shove it up their arse and I'll continue to look for a second hand one.

You try being the bike shop who has to explain to the customer that the exorbitant figure he was given 10 minutes ago has just doubled.

Not my fault and not the fault of the local dealer (possibly not even the fault of Suzuki NZ - although they could certainly make a better effort to keep their pricing details up to date) but rather that of a company higher up the food chain.

avgas

12th April 2010, 14:51

Really? Thats new then, I've got photo's from not long after they first opened. No-one minded when I took them.
Yeah I have photos from Sydney one - but last weekend I was in the Auckland one to check it out, started taking a few snaps and part way through the bitch behind the counter said "You can't take photos of the bikes".
Not one to get my own blood pressure up, I put the camera away and walked out. Seemed a bit ridiculous to me - but then again when all you have is t-shirts with faded photos of semi-classics..........well wouldn't be that hard to duplicate that using photos of their bikes spose.

PeeJay

12th April 2010, 15:01

So it turns out its not a no, as wemoto buys from a wholesaler which offers international services, and with numbers like 2kg orders mentioned I'm guessing NZ has the buying power to buy from them right? Which begs the question, was your post; deliberately misleading, uninformed, or something else I've missed?

Obviously part of the problem is all these old codgers stuck in their ways, cant see the forest for the trees etc.
A fresh set of eyes and a new perspective untainted by past experience could be just the ticket.

Why dont you guys who have come up with all these brill ideas start up a company and bring parts for the NZ biker?
Buying in bulk direct from the manufacturer is an excellent idea, run it as a non profit organisation and pass the savings on. If you time it right the present crop of wholesalers and retailers wont know whats hit them until its too late.
That would just be the beginning, it wouldnt take long before you would have expanded to Australia and with the power of the internet, the world.
Probably find the bike shops wanting to buy from you as well.
If the price is right

dipshit

12th April 2010, 15:09

A

I rang the local Suzuki dealer today to get a price on the spider gear assembly for the front diff on a 10 year old LTF500.... ...The new price is now $1400.

Compare what you need with these prices here... http://www.mrcycles.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=80450&category=ATVs&make=SUZUKI&year=1998&fveh=1849

You would probably get them in quicker from the US anyhow.

bogan

12th April 2010, 15:38

Obviously part of the problem is all these old codgers stuck in their ways, cant see the forest for the trees etc.
A fresh set of eyes and a new perspective untainted by past experience could be just the ticket.

Why dont you guys who have come up with all these brill ideas start up a company and bring parts for the NZ biker?
Buying in bulk direct from the manufacturer is an excellent idea, run it as a non profit organisation and pass the savings on. If you time it right the present crop of wholesalers and retailers wont know whats hit them until its too late.
That would just be the beginning, it wouldnt take long before you would have expanded to Australia and with the power of the internet, the world.
Probably find the bike shops wanting to buy from you as well.
If the price is right

I've said it before, I'm an engineer, not a internet parts salesman. This thread was about what the customers wanted/suggestions, then the dealers all came in and started trying to poke holes in the ideas, so I started poking holes in their arguments, now I'm curious as to whether such an idea is feasible, many have asserted the in-feasibility of such ideas but have not been able to back it up with facts. Such assertions to me sound like the whining voice of an industry unwilling to change with the times. I'm still waiting (and hoping) to be proved wrong. And I don't want everyone to get up in arms over it, just someone to explain (thoroughly as I'm not overly familiar with whole-sellers etc). So heres an image to calm you'se all down.

Dare

12th April 2010, 17:04

WARNING - Unstructured ramble, couldn't be bothered re-ordering the points for readability

This is about parts/gear, not the bikes and not repairs/servicing, things I don't know enough to comment on.
-----------------------------------------------------
Lets look sideways for a moment. Electronic goods are shiny, everyone wants them and as a result there are hundreds of online retail stores in NZ trying to undercut everyone else in any way they can. It's vicious.
Yet somehow they can still maintain return policies and customer service, an impossibility according to some of the people in this thread.

Granted, electronics are inherently tiny and freight is an important issue, not to mention comparing a $300 phone to a $3000 titanium thingamy, but that is ignoring something important here. Buying off the internet is one thing, reliably finding a site that ships the part/gear YOU want to NZ at any price is not easy. Contrary to what people seem to think there arent actually that many sites that tick all the boxes when it comes to shopping online, let alone finding a store in NZ that has x in stock and y quality of service at z price. The net is powerful as a means of sharing knowledge, and given that most parts need shipping to NZ anyway it is not an unreasonable idea to open a web shop where there is no stock to sit on, but where the products shown have access to reliable information as to sizes/quality/compatibility/availability, etc. This is how I have been buying electronics for years and it hasn't failed me yet.

I guess what I am suggesting is a site like pricespy.co.nz or einfo.co.nz . Unfortunately it seems like an anathema to many of the people in this thread now because where is the face to face? Which is a very Kiwi viewpoint in my experience, and that is exactly why most web outlets for motorbikes have a strong physical presence, motomail being an example, whereas many of the new electronic shops do not.

What I am suggesting is to leverage the advantage of web based businesses. That is, infinite shelf space and sharing customer information (B2C and C2C). As the company grows it can find and add new distributors (B2B, something I know nothing about but hey) to add to it's growing repertoire, giving more choice to the (apparently over educated?) consumers, something that neither physically limited shops or individuals can do.

There is no reason that a startup web shop would not be able to have a small physical presence where top sellers would be available to try on and experienced people would handle inquiries, but that would be a nicety and not necessary for the success of the shop. From a financial standpoint I think this could run well and provide far more choice and reliability than trademe specials, the security of an NZ business (especially where DOA's are concerned), the low overheads and prices that NZ apparently craves so much, and the knowledge of a potential community of experts that don't mind answering a few phone calls/emails/questions if they get paid to do so. I'd like to say that last one was aimed at KB but somehow I think it would be more a case of finding some of the more knowledgable 'tin shed' boys and offering them some extra work.

Scorp

12th April 2010, 17:27

To me it sounds like all NZ bike shops are facing the same problem: "Private overseas purchases are killing us".
Not just bike shops, goes for all retail sectors. Amazon are cheaper than Whitcools. But there seems to be room for both.

So what are you, the industry, doing about it? I tell you what it looks like: You are burying your heads in the sand. Your pigheaded attitude will only have one outcome: You be part of the history. To blame the customers, the government, GST, the Easter Bunny is easy. But will not fix the problem!
I can only repeat that I have just purchased a good quality helmet and a pair of boots from an NZ bike shop for LESS than I can find them (best price) on the internet. Perhaps not all bike shops are getting it wrong.

To the shop owners: The writing is on the wall. If you do nothing you are dead. So what are you gonna do about it?
How many bikers out there are really buying either 100% off the web or 100% from NZ bike shops. My guess is none. As buyers we are combining the two channels. Good retailers will work within this framework, not against it. It's just possible that some good NZ bike shop owners are already in the procces of adapting.

Robert Taylor

12th April 2010, 17:38

Scorp

12th April 2010, 17:43

Perhaps and easier strategy would be to just mirror the stock available at other online stores, and place bulk orders to keep the freight costs down, the savings on freight costs then pay off the local postage and GST. Thoughts?
Trouble is, to compete with the likes of Revzilla or Kneedraggers etc, you'd have to buy stock in the same quantities as them. And if you did that, you'd need to compete in a market the same size as theirs, which is the USA plus the rest of the world. If you wanted to compete on that level, you'd need similar operating costs to them, which means for a start you'd need a US based distribution hub, so that you could keep your prices competitive. And if you did that, you'd be just another US online bike store adding to the pressure on NZ retail prices.

I've lived in two medium sized countries (the UK and France) and two small ones (Ireland and New Zealand). And I've found two simple facts of retail life: 1. Small retailers in small countries cannot comprehensively compete all the time with the bulk buying power of international online organisations (although they probably can in a few well-chosen niche areas). 2. Online international stores will never, ever compete with small retailers when it comes to personal trust, personal service, and personal relationships.

As buyers, we (usually but not always) make a compromise on price when we buy local, and always a compromise on personal touch when we buy off the web. It's really as simple as that. You can't have it both ways. Or at least, I doubt you can.

Robert Taylor

12th April 2010, 17:49

Obviously part of the problem is all these old codgers stuck in their ways, cant see the forest for the trees etc.
A fresh set of eyes and a new perspective untainted by past experience could be just the ticket.

Why dont you guys who have come up with all these brill ideas start up a company and bring parts for the NZ biker?
Buying in bulk direct from the manufacturer is an excellent idea, run it as a non profit organisation and pass the savings on. If you time it right the present crop of wholesalers and retailers wont know whats hit them until its too late.
That would just be the beginning, it wouldnt take long before you would have expanded to Australia and with the power of the internet, the world.
Probably find the bike shops wanting to buy from you as well.
If the price is right
What flipping shower did you come down in???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Manufacturers do not just sell to everyone, they want a proper distribution network in each country.

Non profit???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why is making a profit such a dirty thing???!!!! ( fair and reasonable ) In case you hadnt noticed businesses need to make a profit to stay afloat, to pay tax. Tax makes Governments run so they can run essential infrastructure, etc ad infinitum.

Most or all industries that provide transport and leisure activities have to run as a proper business.

I just cant believe what you have posted. Ive certainly negotiated the forest much better than you clearly have

Owl

12th April 2010, 17:52

Sarcasm I think RT:laugh:

Katman

12th April 2010, 17:53

I just cant believe what you have posted. Ive certainly negotiated the forest much better than you clearly have

I may be wrong, but I think he was being sarcastic.

Scorp

12th April 2010, 17:57

Oh, I do love good use of sarcasm, though it would sometimes help if there was an emoticon for it.

bogan

12th April 2010, 18:08

Something else youve missed. Do you really want me to type a whole essay to spell it out clearly?
Im an industry poster so clearly I know nothing.

see post 209.

and holy shit, theres more than 200 posts here :shit:

bogan

12th April 2010, 18:12

Dare

12th April 2010, 18:16

Shouldn't really have bothered eh? Okay let's try again.
Other industries are using new models for distribution and business is booming.
Leaf from book, take.

Genie

12th April 2010, 18:18

After reading many of the pages on this thread, i'd like to say that owning a bike shop is far from "the chance of a lifetime", quite the opposite in fact.

Any man/woman/idiot that chooses to go into business certainly doesn't do it to make squillions and have a nice life.....good luck to any man/woman/idiot that goes into business, it's hard slogger for damn all reward at the end of the day.

Katman

12th April 2010, 18:33

Compare what you need with these prices here... http://www.mrcycles.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=80450&category=ATVs&make=SUZUKI&year=1998&fveh=1849

You would probably get them in quicker from the US anyhow.

That works out to $580NZD.

It certainly sounds like Suzuki NZ have some explaining to do.

Robert Taylor

12th April 2010, 19:01

Sarcasm I think RT:laugh:

Id sincerely hope so, if he is serious then he seriously has issues that only men in white coats could attend to

Robert Taylor

12th April 2010, 19:15

Trouble is, to compete with the likes of Revzilla or Kneedraggers etc, you'd have to buy stock in the same quantities as them. And if you did that, you'd need to compete in a market the same size as theirs, which is the USA plus the rest of the world. If you wanted to compete on that level, you'd need similar operating costs to them, which means for a start you'd need a US based distribution hub, so that you could keep your prices competitive. And if you did that, you'd be just another US online bike store adding to the pressure on NZ retail prices.

I've lived in two medium sized countries (the UK and France) and two small ones (Ireland and New Zealand). And I've found two simple facts of retail life: 1. Small retailers in small countries cannot comprehensively compete all the time with the bulk buying power of international online organisations (although they probably can in a few well-chosen niche areas). 2. Online international stores will never, ever compete with small retailers when it comes to personal trust, personal service, and personal relationships.

As buyers, we (usually but not always) make a compromise on price when we buy local, and always a compromise on personal touch when we buy off the web. It's really as simple as that. You can't have it both ways. Or at least, I doubt you can.

Youve nailed it as you clearly are prepared to think about it. Like you I have lived in a big economy and hear exactly where you are coming from. Those who have been in business or are currently in business have the best appreciation of all of the ins and outs and I entirely reject insinuations that we all have our blinkers on. And Im going to damn well have my say. Although I find the lack of a level playing field unpalatable and having to compete with the odd parasitical parallell importer Ive adapted to the reality.

Many people that work for wages in the motorcycle industry may only be on 35 to 50 k per year, if they are lucky. Certainly not well paid and a whole lot more brain damage than far less demanding and better paid jobs. The industry would pay more if it were able to but the market doesnt let it do so.

I know of a handful of mechanics that deserve to earn $40 per hour but thats not going to happen!

Ive said it before, this is so people dependent.

Robert Taylor

12th April 2010, 19:29

see post #161, its bulk freighting which is competitive as well as bulk buying.

You cannot bulk buy if you dont have a distributor agreement with the manufacturer

Distribution agreements are not handed out like Santas sweets, with especially the higher end products ( from countries that make quality and well engineered products ) you have to satisfy a load of strict criteria and have to have a solid investment in infrastructure. And they will only have one exclusive distributor in most small to large economies

Many or most manufacturers will not tolerate a distributor also having rights to a product that competes directly. For example we have been approached several times to take on a suspension brand that is pretty much the competition to Ohlins at that end of the market. That would seriously compromise our relationship with Ohlins and could end it.
This would be no less similiar if for example you were importing competing brands of oil , exhaust systems or any number of products.

Such business models of distribution that have been put forward would only happen if the rest of the world would accept it, well the rest of the world is not about to change to suit little old NZ lost at the bottom of the world.

Robert Taylor

12th April 2010, 19:41

The recurring theme in this thread is that some people who don't work in the motorcycle industry, see themselves as intellectual messiahs, able to revolutionise the industry with their "new" ideas. Are you really so ignorant to actually think that there are no valid reasons why your ideas won't work?

If your simplistic concepts were indeed able to save or improve the trade, you can rest assured that they would already be in practice. In the meantime, at least have the humility to listen to those who have been there, and know the full picture.

If you can't do that, then put your money where your mouth is - show us all how it is done.

Amen to that. Fairly, I think there are a number who have posted in this thread who have been able to see both sides of the story.

I remember a motorcycle shop starting up in Howick back in the late 80s that espoused that they had the proffessional touch and were going to shake rattle and roll the established dealers. I think they lasted six months, this was of course before the internet. This has been common in all the years Ive been in the industry and a lot of it is because people start up very undercapitalised. They may often have the very best intentions but frankly experience is everything in this industry.
There is a saying going around and sadly it has rung true so many times...''How do you turn a large fortune into a small fortune? Become a motorcycle dealer! " There are a few ex farmers I know that can attest to that, boy did they find out quick how complex and unforgiving this line of business can be.
Its easy to criticise but a lot of the posts on here are indicative of just not having the first idea of what it costs just for a business to open its doors.
And yes, certainly the industry can improve, part of that is to have a lot less dealers and for there to be a lot stricter criteria to be one.

bogan

12th April 2010, 20:45

You cannot bulk buy if you dont have a distributor agreement with the manufacturer

Distribution agreements are not handed out like Santas sweets, with especially the higher end products ( from countries that make quality and well engineered products ) you have to satisfy a load of strict criteria and have to have a solid investment in infrastructure. And they will only have one exclusive distributor in most small to large economies

Many or most manufacturers will not tolerate a distributor also having rights to a product that competes directly. For example we have been approached several times to take on a suspension brand that is pretty much the competition to Ohlins at that end of the market. That would seriously compromise our relationship with Ohlins and could end it.
This would be no less similiar if for example you were importing competing brands of oil , exhaust systems or any number of products.

Such business models of distribution that have been put forward would only happen if the rest of the world would accept it, well the rest of the world is not about to change to suit little old NZ lost at the bottom of the world.

We're obviously not thinking along the same lines here, so I'll put forward my logic, and you can point out exactly where it goes wrong.

1) International Internet sales are taking parts buisness away from local dealers
answer) set up a buisness in NZ to perform the same service as the internet seller
2) Could such a buisness get parts here at a price that will be compeditive with international internet stores?
answer) I beleive so, post #161 shows buying large numbers (i thought that was bulk, but your definition seems to differ) from one of the international sites and reselling the parts here could be compeditive (gst and local postage taken into account).
3) That works on paper now, but the dollar is strong, what happens when it goes down.
answer) It becomes less viable, maybe not viable at all.
4) Can it be made more viable?
answer) yes, buy from the people who sell to such international internet sites, I have already found info on the wholeseller to wemoto.com, and they do international shipping, and sound like in small enough quantities too.
5) How hard is it to get the dealer status needed to buy from them? and what is the discount rates likely to be?
answer) dunno about the first one, but I would assume for a site servicing the whole of NZ (only those that do internet orders though) wouldn't be too difficult. And I assume the discount rates are enough to enable a profit on the parts after resale (otherwise how would wemoto survive).

So they are currently my thoughts, your take on them?

Conquiztador

12th April 2010, 20:51

Robert Taylor

12th April 2010, 20:51

We're obviously not thinking along the same lines here, so I'll put forward my logic, and you can point out exactly where it goes wrong.

1) International Internet sales are taking parts buisness away from local dealers
answer) set up a buisness in NZ to perform the same service as the internet seller
2) Could such a buisness get parts here at a price that will be compeditive with international internet stores?
answer) I beleive so, post #161 shows buying large numbers (i thought that was bulk, but your definition seems to differ) from one of the international sites and reselling the parts here could be compeditive (gst and local postage taken into account).
3) That works on paper now, but the dollar is strong, what happens when it goes down.
answer) It becomes less viable, maybe not viable at all.
4) Can it be made more viable?
answer) yes, buy from the people who sell to such international internet sites, I have already found info on the wholeseller to wemoto.com, and they do international shipping, and sound like in small enough quantities too.
5) How hard is it to get the dealer status needed to buy from them? and what is the discount rates likely to be?
answer) dunno about the first one, but I would assume for a site servicing the whole of NZ (only those that do internet orders though) wouldn't be too difficult. And I assume the discount rates are enough to enable a profit on the parts after resale (otherwise how would wemoto survive).

So they are currently my thoughts, your take on them?

Someone is currently trying it, on a limited scale. Some of the items are not directly from the manufacturers as they wont allow him to buy direct. Thats good because he is otherwise leaching off the profile created by the legitimate distributors.
The best answer is try for yourself

Robert Taylor

12th April 2010, 20:56

I surrender. I fucken give up! All you in the trade have beaten me in to submission with your lack of willingness to look at things in a different light. By refusing to allow bikers just to throw ideas around. By being stubborn, pigheaded, lacking of humour, grey and not accepting that maybe, just maybe there is another way. Maybe there is no other way. Maybe you are right. But shit, why then spend hundreds of posts trying to state the obvious? By winning this debate you have actually lost. But I have already figured out that you will never see that. So I will leave you in your misery.

This thread was never about telling you in the trade that you do not know what you are doing. The ones of you who have been in business for years clearly know heaps. But fuck are you a negative bunch!

Peace!

Thats unfair, not all of us are unwilling and I would substitute the word negative ( for the most part ) with realistic, or realistic expectations within sensible financial constraints.

We are all consumers as well of other products, I personally hate the Harvey Normans of this world as you are for the most part not dealing with specialists, just people who have done slick sales courses

bogan

12th April 2010, 21:07

I surrender. I fucken give up! All you in the trade have beaten me in to submission with your lack of willingness to look at things in a different light. By refusing to allow bikers just to throw ideas around. By being stubborn, pigheaded, lacking of humour, grey and not accepting that maybe, just maybe there is another way. Maybe there is no other way. Maybe you are right. But shit, why then spend hundreds of posts trying to state the obvious? By winning this debate you have actually lost. But I have already figured out that you will never see that. So I will leave you in your misery.

This thread was never about telling you in the trade that you do not know what you are doing. The ones of you who have been in business for years clearly know heaps. But fuck are you a negative bunch!

Peace!

sorry if i've contributed to this, as it does take two to argue and I was the second.

Someone is currently trying it, on a limited scale. Some of the items are not directly from the manufacturers as they wont allow him to buy direct. Thats good because he is otherwise leaching off the profile created by the legitimate distributors.
The best answer is try for yourself

So in absence of of any disagreement with the above points I take it you agree it may be possible to do as suggested. And who is trying it on a limited scale? I'd be interested to see what they are doing.

sidecar bob

12th April 2010, 21:19

F.F.S Could you just hurry up & start the bloody company yourself instead of trying to gamble other peoples money!
Realistcaly, any business is just a bloke looking for maximum return on his dollar with the skills god gave him.
I surrender. I fucken give up! All you in the trade have beaten me in to submission with your lack of willingness to look at things in a different light. By refusing to allow bikers just to throw ideas around. By being stubborn, pigheaded, lacking of humour, grey and not accepting that maybe, just maybe there is another way. Maybe there is no other way. Maybe you are right. But shit, why then spend hundreds of posts trying to state the obvious? By winning this debate you have actually lost. But I have already figured out that you will never see that. So I will leave you in your misery.

This thread was never about telling you in the trade that you do not know what you are doing. The ones of you who have been in business for years clearly know heaps. But fuck are you a negative bunch!

Peace!

Brian d marge

12th April 2010, 21:23

[QUOTE=Katman;1129713781

How about........when you ask to pay a job off, you don't expect $20 a week (or a really big bag of weed) to cut it.
.[/QUOTE]

How big is the bag?

Actually i have sat down many many many times in order to figure out what is going to happen with the bike trade

What I would like is a cross over product ( cars bikes ,,,horse drawn shopping trolleys )

One of the things I keep coming back to is providing , helping the customer get his or her jollies ,,,,via a motorbike

providing the total package , from training , to events to mx , a small workshop which can outsource , I m sure someone such as Mr Taylor could set up and renew a set of suspenders based on information supplied , and do a better Job

Specialization?

24hr breakdown with in a certain area

bike pick up when owner has had a few ( for loyal customers)

Dealers evenings at the indoor minimoto track

Shes a tough question this one , but one thing is for sure , the INTERNET has been around for only 15 years and has changed the game

Stephen

avgas

12th April 2010, 21:23

Peace!
Love and disrespect.......

I miss that guy now

Scorp

12th April 2010, 21:38

see post #161, its bulk freighting which is competitive as well as bulk buying.
Do you really think that bulk freighting product from the US to NZ then selling it back via the internet to individuals in the US is going to incur lower or similar operational costs to bulk buying/stocking and distributing within the US?

Ixion

12th April 2010, 21:50

F.F.S Could you just hurry up & start the bloody company yourself instead of trying to gamble other peoples money!
Realistcaly, any business is just a bloke looking for maximum return on his dollar with the skills god gave him.

Y'see, the thing is, it doesn't really matter to us . Once, businesses could get away with the 'we've always done it that way and if you don't like it, tough' . But the world has changed. If every bike shop in the country closed up, it wouldn't really bother me. Only thing I can't get over the net is tyres. There several places do bike tyres. Sorted.

Bike shops can carry on the way they always have. If they can make a decent living from it, good on them. If not, they'll go broke in time. Doesn't bother me either way. I used to feel bad about sourcing over the net, ought to support local etc. Now I don't

bogan

12th April 2010, 22:01

Do you really think that bulk freighting product from the US to NZ then selling it back via the internet to individuals in the US is going to incur lower or similar operational costs to bulk buying/stocking and distributing within the US?

What the? why would it be sold back to the US, buy from US (well UK in my example) freight heaps of parts together to NZ, then sell in NZ and post out to customers (in NZ)

dipshit

12th April 2010, 22:02

That works out to $580NZD.

It certainly sounds like Suzuki NZ have some explaining to do.

I would imagine something along the lines of... "We give our bikes away in the cornflakes packet so don't make much money on them. We make our money by ripping people off on parts and bullshitting our customers into believing they need to have the services done at authorised Suzuki dealers with their new bikes"

:oi-grr:

Such an 1980' way of doing business.

hmmmnz

12th April 2010, 22:50

what i want out of a bike shop is.

parts department....
1. the ability of the monkey behind the counter to use a fiche and order correct parts first time. i can do it, why can't they
2. some one who is willing to actually look up on the parts fiche, instead of saying (and i quote) "its not worth my time to look, get me the part number and i'll order it for you"
3. the parts person not to question my intelligence about a bike i own, i know what year it is, despite your computer telling you something different.

sales....
1. the guys jsut to have a passion and actually ride bikes,
2. not look down their nose at you because their bike is.. bigger, newer, faster, cooler than yours
3. actually help you, when you want help,

service...
1. do the job right the first time, and if they fuck it up admit it, and remedy the problem
2. have a place to chill while you wait for your bike, with bike related mags, dvd's playing, free coffee and tea
3. offer advice when someone has a problem, us kiwis like to give it a go ourselves first, we'll happily buy other stuff from the shop and recommend said shop to other people, even if we don't take our bikes in to get serviced by you.

thats what i want out of a bike shop, im yet to go to one which ticks even half the boxes.
im happy to pay more for parts than what i can get over the internet, if the service is worth it, so far its just fuck up after fuck up from all the bike shops ive got parts from

PeeJay

12th April 2010, 22:58

What flipping shower did you come down in???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Manufacturers do not just sell to everyone, they want a proper distribution network in each country.

Non profit???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why is making a profit such a dirty thing???!!!! ( fair and reasonable ) In case you hadnt noticed businesses need to make a profit to stay afloat, to pay tax. Tax makes Governments run so they can run essential infrastructure, etc ad infinitum.

Most or all industries that provide transport and leisure activities have to run as a proper business.

I just cant believe what you have posted. Ive certainly negotiated the forest much better than you clearly have
touchee touchee
While originally not meant to be taken literally, on second thoughts why not?
One of the original drivers for wholesalers was the efficient distribution of goods and the efficient movement of money to pay for these goods. Both activities being labour intensive.
A lot has changed over the years.
Today paying for goods is fully automated, and modern warehouses are full of robots doing the picking and packing. Transport isnt a problem. So there is no real barrier to individuals or retail shops ordering direct from the factory.
Except old codgers who keep bumping into trees

T.W.R

12th April 2010, 23:02

F.F.S Could you just hurry up & start the bloody company yourself instead of trying to gamble other peoples money!
Realistcaly, any business is just a bloke looking for maximum return on his dollar with the skills god gave him.

:rofl: that's funny....that's exactly what most dealerships are doing already :yes: gambling someone elses money....usually the banks money

Scorp

12th April 2010, 23:57

What the? why would it be sold back to the US, buy from US (well UK in my example) freight heaps of parts together to NZ, then sell in NZ and post out to customers (in NZ)
Okay. Here we go...

1. US online bike stores buy in bulk quantities to satisfy mainly, the US market. Ditto for online UK stores. Although both obviously do sell overseas as well.

2. If you're going to set up an NZ based online store that's going to compete with US and/or UK online stores - it's going to have to buy in the same quantities as US and UK stores.

3. The UK market is roughly 12 times, and the US market roughly 60 times the size of the NZ market.

4. This means, in order to obtain the same economies of scale as US and UK operators, you're going to have to buy between 12 and 60 times as much stock as you can sell in NZ.

5. If you have 12 to 60 times as much stock as you can sell in NZ, you're going to have to sell it to people in bigger markets. Markets with 12 to 60 times as many people in them - most likely in the US and/or the UK. Which means sending the gear from NZ to those countries.

6. US and UK operators are closer to most of their supply sources than an NZ operator would be, so an NZ operator will have to pay more for shipping the stuff to NZ in the first place. And more to fulfill US and UK orders too.

7. Therefore the only way for an NZ online store to truly compete with a US or UK online store, is to set up in the US or UK because 90% of their market is there, not here.

That's what I'm getting at. There are already online NZ motorcycle gear suppliers and as far as I can tell, their prices are pretty much the same as NZ bike shops. The above is almost certainly the reason why.

You can only get the same economies of scale as the big boys, if you operate in the same markets as them.

Robert Taylor

13th April 2010, 07:57

What the? why would it be sold back to the US, buy from US (well UK in my example) freight heaps of parts together to NZ, then sell in NZ and post out to customers (in NZ)

That is a spectacularly naive statement. And Im not going to spell it out any further for you because others very ably have.

Pixie

13th April 2010, 08:02

The future is: Buying everything including the bike on-line with servicing performed by mobile mechanics.

You won't like it,but you created it and will be stuck with it.Until,of course, an enterprising individual opens a retro style store and you all flock to the things you are moaning about in this thread.

Look,You're Kiwis,you live in a third world country with first world desire for toys,but are only willing to pay the lowest price.
You will only invest in property but want business to provide you with everything you think you deserve.

bogan

13th April 2010, 09:11

Okay. Here we go...

1. US online bike stores buy in bulk quantities to satisfy mainly, the US market. Ditto for online UK stores. Although both obviously do sell overseas as well.

2. If you're going to set up an NZ based online store that's going to compete with US and/or UK online stores - it's going to have to buy in the same quantities as US and UK stores.

3. The UK market is roughly 12 times, and the US market roughly 60 times the size of the NZ market.

4. This means, in order to obtain the same economies of scale as US and UK operators, you're going to have to buy between 12 and 60 times as much stock as you can sell in NZ.

5. If you have 12 to 60 times as much stock as you can sell in NZ, you're going to have to sell it to people in bigger markets. Markets with 12 to 60 times as many people in them - most likely in the US and/or the UK. Which means sending the gear from NZ to those countries.

6. US and UK operators are closer to most of their supply sources than an NZ operator would be, so an NZ operator will have to pay more for shipping the stuff to NZ in the first place. And more to fulfill US and UK orders too.

7. Therefore the only way for an NZ online store to truly compete with a US or UK online store, is to set up in the US or UK because 90% of their market is there, not here.

That's what I'm getting at. There are already online NZ motorcycle gear suppliers and as far as I can tell, their prices are pretty much the same as NZ bike shops. The above is almost certainly the reason why.

You can only get the same economies of scale as the big boys, if you operate in the same markets as them.

If you don't sell in the US you don't have to compete with the US market, if you want to set up shop in NZ you just have to price compeditively in NZ, if its and online shop in NZ then you will want to be compeditive with online shops overseas that ship to NZ, got it?

I've bought things from the UK and the postage is pretty bloody expensive if you only buy one, but buy 10 parts (different or the same it doesnt matter) the postage cost per part drops a lot. The post i told you to read (I'm guessing you didnt, or didnt understand it) shows that buying 10 items from on overseas online store and reselling in NZ in smaller quantities means you can offer the same price to NZ customers as they could get the part here from the UK, this takes into account postage and GST as well. Now if you can buy from the wholseller that supplies the overseas online store, the cost would decrease and you could make a tidy profit is my theory, so far nobody has poked any holes in it that I'm satisfied with.

That is a spectacularly naive statement. And Im not going to spell it out any further for you because others very ably have.

Oh FFS, if you have nothing useful to say, say nothing at all please. Coming into threads as you do and defending the bike industry with little or no factual basis (other than I work in it and know wayyyy more than you) (i should clarfiy that to little or no factual basis understandable to those outside the industry) is a waste of time and does nothing for your cause. If you want us to see how good the bike industry is, provide some fucking reason for why you disagree. I outline my logic a few posts ago and asked you to find holes in it, you've yet to show me any, if there are please spell it out. Also you said you knew of someone who was doing something similar, I would be curious to go have a look if they have a website up and running.

Robert Taylor

13th April 2010, 09:22

If you don't sell in the US you don't have to compete with the US market, if you want to set up shop in NZ you just have to price compeditively in NZ, if its and online shop in NZ then you will want to be compeditive with online shops overseas that ship to NZ, got it?

I've bought things from the UK and the postage is pretty bloody expensive if you only buy one, but buy 10 parts (different or the same it doesnt matter) the postage cost per part drops a lot. The post i told you to read (I'm guessing you didnt, or didnt understand it) shows that buying 10 items from on overseas online store and reselling in NZ in smaller quantities means you can offer the same price to NZ customers as they could get the part here from the UK, this takes into account postage and GST as well. Now if you can buy from the wholseller that supplies the overseas online store, the cost would decrease and you could make a tidy profit is my theory, so far nobody has poked any holes in it that I'm satisfied with.

Oh FFS, if you have nothing useful to say, say nothing at all please. Coming into threads as you do and defending the bike industry with little or no factual basis (other than I work in it and know wayyyy more than you) (i should clarfiy that to little or no factual basis understandable to those outside the industry) is a waste of time and does nothing for your cause. If you want us to see how good the bike industry is, provide some fucking reason for why you disagree. I outline my logic a few posts ago and asked you to find holes in it, you've yet to show me any, if there are please spell it out. Also you said you knew of someone who was doing something similar, I would be curious to go have a look if they have a website up and running.

No need to defend myself, as for logic Scorp makes a whole load of sense, as have others. I wish I had all the time in the world to monotonously prove your folly but others already have. Now Ive got work to do as I hope you have.