Police killing us again!

[blackdog]

The crown said he was persuing

that kinda stuffs red mermaid then

can't argue with someone further up the food chain

[Spearfish]

Have you guys jumped in a bit to early and put your rego on hold for the winter?

[Smifffy]

"The officer activated his lights and sirens and moved his vehicle to the left intending to carry out a turning manoeuvre to follow the speeding vehicle, partway through this Mr Brown has come over the brow of a hill and encountered the patrol car partway across his lane and collided with it," - Leo Tooman

So is there a policy for carrying out turning manoeuvres to follow speeding vehicles once the lights and sirens have been activated?

Clearly this is way outside the scope of the pursuit policy, which could in no way apply in this instance.

[red mermaid]

Im not going to bother because I know the rules as it is my job, and as soon as I start to try and correct the myths, legends and plain BS on KB all I get is personal insults from a bunch of bush lawyers who think they know it all.

So I figure, let the bush lawyers put you wrong.

[MarkH]

Im not going to bother because I know the rules as it is my job, and as soon as I start to try and correct the myths, legends and plain BS on KB all I get is personal insults from a bunch of bush lawyers who think they know it all.

So I figure, let the bush lawyers put you wrong.

So, why exactly do you even bother posting here then? (Serious question)

[bogan]

Im not going to bother because I know the rules as it is my job, and as soon as I start to try and correct the myths, legends and plain BS on KB all I get is personal insults from a bunch of bush lawyers who think they know it all.

So I figure, let the bush lawyers put you wrong.

and why do you lump us all into the same category? I welcome intelligent debate on such topics, just ignore the insults (and perhaps stop dispensing them yourself) and you might actually get somewhere.

And yeh, I would like to know why you continue to post as well? cos you are just making cops look bad with what you have said so far.

[red mermaid]

So what insults have I dispensed?

[bogan]

So what insults have I dispensed?

calling us all bush lawyers for one, assuming we are all out to insult you rather than actually debate anything. I'm still looking for answers on the other questions btw

[Toaster]

So, why exactly do you even bother posting here then? (Serious question)

It called feeding the trolls

[scumdog]

So, why exactly do you even bother posting here then? (Serious question)

Maybe like me he finds it entertaining at times?

And also like me at times he may want to dispense accurate information or advice...at times..

[Toaster]

Lets clarify this. Revenue collecting is for Government and Treasury. They use all sorts of methods to do that, in the main, IRD.

The police and councils issue infringement notices for offences (mobile and stationary). Yes that means income to the crown but they exist to prevent certain behaviours and make life fairer and safer for the majority.

The point of the courts enforcing the payment of fines is about holding people accountable for the offences they commit and making them pay for the consequences of their choices.

[Max Preload]

It called feeding the trolls

More like plain trolling.

[Berries]

Im not going to bother because I know the rules as it is my job, and as soon as I start to try and correct the myths, legends and plain BS on KB all I get is personal insults from a bunch of bush lawyers who think they know it all.
No offence, but many of your posts come across as arrogant and 'I know best' which is never going to help on a forum, in fact some of your posts are just like red flags to a bull. Some of the cops on here are respected, well, as much as the fuzz will ever be by a bunch of anti social FTP rebels that bikers are, and if you know the rules and regs then your input could be valuable, as many people don't know them and post incorrect info. Basically, you reap what you sow on KB.

As for insults, it's a forum, not real life.

[Toaster]

I prefer social rather than anti-social.

[Berries]

I was generalising quite a bit there. I don't even know what File Transfer Protocol has got to do with motorbikes.

[Toaster]

I was generalising quite a bit there. I don't even know what File Transfer Protocol has got to do with motorbikes.

Hehe angry I.T. geeks???

[rebyl]

I would like to add my ten cents worth to this debate. I was going just above the speed limit a couple of years ago on the Turangi to Taumarunui road when a cop came round the corner...I was in the bush part of the road at the time...he apparrently immediately did a U turn to chase me and almost collided with the bikes that were a bit behind me...yes he did this on a corner...arsehole!!!.
My son was driving a Milk Tanker towards Auckland and was following a Highway Patrol car when all of a sudden the cop pulled left and did a U Turn right in front of him, he did not apply the brakes to the truck and trailer unit as he would have probably rolled it so he was heading straight at the cops door...the Cops eyes were just about popping out of his head...wonder if the ticket was worth almost loosing his lfe!!!.
I am a Driving Instructor also and I CONSTANTLY!!!! see Police Officers breaking the most basic Road Rules and I am sick of explaining to students why they are not following the rules....to my mind there is no bloody excuse.....I was in the Military Police in my Army days and we had a Corp motto...."By example we lead". It's a pity that the Police seem to have forgotten this to a large degree.
Now this may sound silly after my above rant....but I have the highest respect for the Police Force and for what they stand for and I would,t want their job today, but I do not and will not respect the idiots that put on a unifrm and think that they are GOD. The uniform and rank do not earn the respect it is the Officer that wears it that has to earn it and until the Cowboy cops out there stop and think about that then we will continue to have this debate. Just because you have the power ....it doesn't excuse you making the mistakes that this Cop did when he killed this rider by his and his alone actions, I do not care what spin someone puts on it...he did it...he caused it...end of story...The Cop in the Bhuller Gorge got made to pay reperation of 60K for injuring two riders...I wonder what price they put on someones life?.
There I feel much better now

[Smifffy]

Maybe like me he finds it entertaining at times?

And also like me at times he may want to dispense accurate information or advice...at times..

Or drop bricks on wasp nests?

The actions of the driver of the police car, in both this and the Bridgeman incident are indefensible, yet everyone from Tooman on down have closed ranks. You have pointed out that the public at large don't know the pursuit policy. The IPCA have called for changes to pursuit policy also, and it is not hard to imagine that Justice Goddard's report was treated with the same scorn as the posters to this thread.

It is hard to see a single post in this thread from anyone in the enforcement field that has contributed anything positive to the debate. No facts, no figures, no quotes nor statistics. What there is a lot of evidence of, is obfuscation, name calling and the "I know what's best because it's my job"

I wonder at the mindset of someone that would find it entertaining to purposefully derail a public discussion among interested individuals looking for answers after a person has lost their life.

Please summarise the accurate information/advice that you can offer soon.

[Coldrider]

Im not going to bother because I know the rules as it is my job, and as soon as I start to try and correct the myths, legends and plain BS on KB all I get is personal insults from a bunch of bush lawyers who think they know it all.

So I figure, let the bush lawyers put you wrong.I have no reason to believe you are a cop, nor do I care.


Maybe like me he finds it entertaining at times?
There is a huge gap between yourself and him, doesn't even compare.

[Coldrider]

Im not going to bother because I know the rules as it is my job, and as soon as I start to try and correct the myths, legends and plain BS on KB all I get is personal insults from a bunch of bush lawyers who think they know it all.

So I figure, let the bush lawyers put you wrong.I have no reason to believe you are a cop, nor do I care.


Maybe like me he finds it entertaining at times?
There is a huge gap between yourself and him, doesn't even compare (but don't let it go to your head).

[blackdog]

And also like me at times he may want to dispense accurate information or advice...at times..

inaccurate and misleading at other times....

[scumdog]

inaccurate and misleading at other times....

Quote of same please?

[scumdog]

Or drop bricks on wasp nests?

The actions of the driver of the police car, in both this and the Bridgeman incident are indefensible, yet everyone from Tooman on down have closed ranks. You have pointed out that the public at large don't know the pursuit policy. The IPCA have called for changes to pursuit policy also, and it is not hard to imagine that Justice Goddard's report was treated with the same scorn as the posters to this thread.

It is hard to see a single post in this thread from anyone in the enforcement field that has contributed anything positive to the debate. No facts, no figures, no quotes nor statistics. What there is a lot of evidence of, is obfuscation, name calling and the "I know what's best because it's my job"

I wonder at the mindset of someone that would find it entertaining to purposefully derail a public discussion among interested individuals looking for answers after a person has lost their life.

Please summarise the accurate information/advice that you can offer soon.

I never mentioned anyhting about pursuit policy as far as I can recall. (seeing as you quoted me in that post)

And where does it say on KB "Only facts, figures, quotes or statistics please"

Get over yourself, don't take it all so seriously, you're starting to sound like Lou Gerardin......

[blackdog]

Quote of same please?

well, if not accurate at ALL times (your quote, only sometimes) how would you describe the other times? surely logic dictates the other times MUST be inaccurate?

[Smifffy]

I never mentioned anyhting about pursuit policy as far as I can recall. (seeing as you quoted me in that post)

True. You did weigh in that it was entertaining though, and it seemed an appropriate place as any to comment on the policy. Do you know if any changes have been made to it since October last year?
You appear to be somewhat saner than either Patrick or Red Meter-maid, please don't think that's an insult.


And where does it say on KB "Only facts, figures, quotes or statistics please"


It doesn't afaik. They are usually accepted by sane people as examples of useful information, or the background to advice, neither of which you have contributed to this thread, despite your failed attempt to claim to the contrary.



Get over yourself, don't take it all so seriously, you're starting to sound like Lou Gerardin......

The french cyclist? It is the police that need to get over themselves. Admit there's been a fuck up, make some changes to the way things are done and move on.

I do take it seriously, there are quite literally lives at stake. Nobody in the force believed it after Bridgeman, and they still appear to refuse to accept it now.

I guess this way makes for greater entertainment for you?

[Indoo]

You already stated that this thread was all about 'bashing the cops' and now your lamenting the lack of facts, figures and constructive debate?

[Gunnerl]

More like idiot on bike kills himself! The saving grace is that he didn't kill anyone else.

[BMWST?]

Exactly the point I was making. The turning circle is smaller than most would expect.

turning circle id different than the circle required when you initiate the turn form a higher speed.In the buller gorge case and this one the commodore is stil perpendicular to the road.it doesnt matter what the car is,you have to choose a spot that you can do a U turn safely

[Smifffy]

You already stated that this thread was all about 'bashing the cops' and now your lamenting the lack of facts, figures and constructive debate?

I've posted up plenty of facts figures,& quotes in support of the bash. Including, but not limited to, the road code, IPCA reports, and media reporting (of dubious value admittedly). Candor has posted up plenty of statistics and independent research reports.

What have you posted up? You couldn't even quote me in context.

[Indoo]

Get over yourself, don't take it all so seriously, you're starting to sound like Lou Gerardin......

Thats a bit harsh on Lou, he did at least have a sense of humour at times and a wee bit of experience in what he was talking about.

[Katman]

The reality is that motorcyclists are killing themselves in grossly far greater numbers than police are killing them.

Latching on to this one particular incident as an opportunity to bash the police shows the desperate straws that some will clutch at in order to mask the greater problem.

[bogan]

The reality is that motorcyclists are killing themselves in grossly far greater numbers than police are killing them.

Latching on to this one particular incident as an opportunity to bash the police shows the desperation that some will clutch at in order to mask the greater problem.

Cos this is one area where a difference can be made, change the policy so it doesn't happen, send the cops a message that they have to lead by example, that they are there to make the roads safer, not tax the road users.

And if you have ideas on how to make bikers safer in general, run with it, don't post BS impeding those that do.

[Katman]

And if you have ideas on how to make bikers safer in general, run with it, don't post BS impeding those that do.

Hey, now there's an idea.

:rolleyes:

[Smifffy]

The reality is that motorcyclists are killing themselves in grossly far greater numbers than police are killing them.

Latching on to this one particular incident as an opportunity to bash the police shows the desperation that some will clutch at in order to mask the greater problem.

I agree with Katman (are you going to put that in your sig? lolz)

The difference is that the police can do something about these types of incidents relatively easily, yet they refuse to.

There is no shortage of bikers acting like temporary NZers, nor any shortage of cagers capable of mowing us down. There have been many examples of both that have ended badly since this incident.

There was much the same rank closure during the Bridgeman incident, and yet the court found that he had been driving like a dick, and his subsequent behaviour showed that he is actually a dick.

I'm sure there's more than one of them in the force, and they all seem to stick together.

[Katman]

I agree with Katman (are you going to put that in your sig? lolz)




No, but I can add you to the list.

:msn-wink:

[trustme]

It's a funny old world , we got one thread about a rider clocked at 200kph & the next thread says 'the cops are killing us'.

Who is kidding who ???

[bogan]

It's a funny old world , we got one thread about a rider clocked at 200kph & the next thread says 'the cops are killing us'.

Who is kidding who ???

so if I do 100kmhr (and no drinking of course) I am completely safe right?

dunno if you saw on the news the story bout the car vs bus collision, reporter said neither alcohol or speed was a factor like it just didn't make any sense!

[Spearfish]

so if I do 100kmhr (and no drinking of course) I am completely safe right?

dunno if you saw on the news the story bout the car vs bus collision, reporter said neither alcohol or speed was a factor like it just didn't make any sense!

So that leaves the real problem, the human element. It must be really confusing if they had a new car with 5 stars, low emissions, didn't drive tired and use their safety belt...oh and ACC safety TAX blah blah blah.
one thing I know they didnt have to do..fark all to get a licence..

[scumdog]

so if I do 100kmhr (and no drinking of course) I am completely safe right?

dunno if you saw on the news the story bout the car vs bus collision, reporter said neither alcohol or speed was a factor like it just didn't make any sense!


They always leave out 'excessive' when they talk about speed, I'm sure saying 'excessive speed' must be too much of a mouthful.

A bit like the drinkdriving thing, I'm sure they mean 'excessive' drinking:yes:

But nobody seems to worry about that, they only focus on the use of the word 'speed'.

In the fatality quoted I suspect 'excessive stopping' would be an apt description....:shifty:

[MSTRS]

I never mentioned anyhting about pursuit policy as far as I can recall. (seeing as you quoted me in that post)

And where does it say on KB "Only facts, figures, quotes or statistics please"

Get over yourself, don't take it all so seriously, you're starting to sound like Lou Gerardin......

Getting back to the original question...
What IS the actual policy on pursuit? As it relates to reversing direction to begin chase? After Bridgemen, the IPCA recommended a change to policy, so we know there is some sort of directive regarding U-turns and/or 3-point turns. What is it? And was it altered after Bridgeman, etc?
Please.

[scumdog]

Getting back to the original question...
What IS the actual policy on pursuit? As it relates to reversing direction to begin chase? After Bridgemen, the IPCA recommended a change to policy, so we know there is some sort of directive regarding U-turns and/or 3-point turns. What is it? And was it altered after Bridgeman, etc?
Please.

Never seen any directive re doing a U-turn, I guess the same rules apply as would to members of the public.

And a large percentage of 'pursuits' called in are actually 'failing to stop' incidents where because of loud stereo/inability to use rear-view mirror/no brain (or all of the aforementioned) the driver just doesn't know he's had a cop car with flashing red&blue lights, flashing healights and siren on following him/her for the last 8km+.....they generally are only doing the speed limit or thereabouts, not flying along at warp-factor 3.

And other times it's arrogant twats who don't stop for ages because "I'm not speeding/I wasn't doing anything wrong/I don't have to stop for you" etc and decide there is not requirement to pullover and stop.

[MSTRS]

Never seen any directive re doing a U-turn, I guess the same rules apply as would to members of the public.


Thank you.
So there isn't a particular instruction? Other than what the rest of the motoring public are supposed to do?
In which case, why does it take so long to 'ping' a caught-out cop? So long as compared to one of the great unwashed, similarly caught?

[scumdog]

Thank you.
So there isn't a particular instruction? Other than what the rest of the motoring public are supposed to do?
In which case, why does it take so long to 'ping' a caught-out cop? So long as compared to one of the great unwashed, similarly caught?

Both would take just as long to deal with if a death is involved....ALL the facts need to be looked into - not just the 'KB facts' either..

[peasea]

the 'KB facts' ..

The fuckin' what!!???:killingme:killingme:killingme

[Smifffy]

Both would take just as long to deal with if a death is involved....ALL the facts need to be looked into - not just the 'KB facts' either..

Thank you for answering the question. I found it helpful.

[Max Preload]

And a large percentage of 'pursuits' called in are actually 'failing to stop' incidents where because of loud stereo/inability to use rear-view mirror/no brain (or all of the aforementioned) the driver just doesn't know he's had a cop car with flashing red&blue lights, flashing healights and siren on following him/her for the last 8km+.....

As far as I'm concerned, that is much worse than just fucking off at warp 10 - complete inattention. What's the penalty for 'Oblivious Driving'?

[MSTRS]

What's the penalty for 'Oblivious Driving'?

It's pretty harsh, actually.
Oh - and more often than not, paid by someone else...

[Max Preload]

It's pretty harsh, actually.
Oh - and more often than not, paid by someone else...

No wonder it's so rampant. How can we turn the tables on these arsehats when tougher requirements in terms of actual driving ability are unpopular with the sheeple and thus steered away from by politicians?

[Patrick]

... The actions of the driver of the police car, in both this and the Bridgeman incident are indefensible, yet everyone from Tooman on down have closed ranks.

Did you read post 1110? Closed ranks.... pffft....

It is hard to see a single post in this thread from anyone in the enforcement field that has contributed anything positive to the debate.

Post 1110 again......

No facts, no figures, no quotes nor statistics.

Plenty of supposed and assumed facts, plently of made up stats and figures, and some quotes are rubbish too.......

What there is a lot of evidence of, is obfuscation, name calling

Like..... um... fucking pig...?

I wonder at the mindset of someone that would find it entertaining to purposefully derail a public discussion among interested individuals looking for answers after a person has lost their life.

Too many in this thread only wanted to have a go at the cops, full stop, end of story. They were not interested in "looking for answers" after a person lost their life.





True. You did weigh in that it was entertaining though, and it seemed an appropriate place as any to comment on the policy. Do you know if any changes have been made to it since October last year?
You appear to be somewhat saner than either Patrick or Red Meter-maid, please don't think that's an insult.

You HAVE read post 1110? Where I claim it is a bad place to U turn, the cause is clear, he will get charged? Is this the insane you refer to? Or is it the part that perhaps the ute driver and perhaps even the motorbike rider played in all of it?




So, why exactly do you even bother posting here then? (Serious question)

Makes me wonder sometimes too....


Maybe like me he finds it entertaining at times?

And also like me at times he may want to dispense accurate information or advice...at times..

Quoted for truth and accuracy.... even if it is on KB......

[Patrick]

The reality is that motorcyclists are killing themselves in grossly far greater numbers than police are killing them.

Latching on to this one particular incident as an opportunity to bash the police shows the desperate straws that some will clutch at in order to mask the greater problem.

And that, folks, kinda sums up some of what this thread SHOULD be about..........

But damned are those who may speak out against the actions of the indestructable motorcyclist.....

[Patrick]

Thank you.
So there isn't a particular instruction? Other than what the rest of the motoring public are supposed to do?
In which case, why does it take so long to 'ping' a caught-out cop? So long as compared to one of the great unwashed, similarly caught?

The U turn is a simple $150 ticket. Just like anyone, U turning in a bad place is that - bad. You do not need a specific instruction for that. It aint rocket science. But mistakes are made, sadly with tragic consequences. Just as in this case. This turned into a serious matter when the death occurred. All Fatals are treated as serious crime scenes and cases take months to get off the ground, regardless of the driver being a cop, or as an examle of a local one down here, a Champion Modified Sprint Car Racer.....


Thank you for answering the question. I found it helpful.

Was also in post 1110. Insane, I know.....:blink:

[DMNTD]

The U turn is a simple $150 ticket. Just like anyone, U turning in a bad place is that - bad. You do not need a specific instruction for that. It aint rocket science. But mistakes are made, sadly with tragic consequences. Just as in this case. This turned into a serious matter when the death occurred. All Fatals are treated as serious crime scenes and cases take months to get off the ground, regardless of the driver being a cop, or as an examle of a local one down here, a Champion Modified Sprint Car Racer.....


Is there such a thing as careless/reckless driving causing death?
I know they guy that didn't give way and took me out with a truck?? got done for careless causing injury.
Not a dig...simply a question

[MSTRS]

The U turn is a simple $150 ticket. Just like anyone, U turning in a bad place is that - bad. You do not need a specific instruction for that. It aint rocket science. But mistakes are made, sadly with tragic consequences. Just as in this case. This turned into a serious matter when the death occurred. All Fatals are treated as serious crime scenes and cases take months to get off the ground, regardless of the driver being a cop, or as an examle of a local one down here, a Champion Modified Sprint Car Racer.....


I can understand the need to do investigation. I can also undersand why such an investigation 'could' take longer in the case of a cop.
Can we assume then, that this cop is already in receipt of a TON for Unsafe Manouevre $150, subject to the charge being increased to ...Causing Death, should his culpability be proved?

See, the thing is, right or wrong, we expect cops to be held to a higher standard than the rest of us. They are there to know, and uphold, 'the law'. Yet so often, this proves not to be the case. We have all become somewhat cynical over the years.

[bogan]

The U turn is a simple $150 ticket. Just like anyone, U turning in a bad place is that - bad. You do not need a specific instruction for that. It aint rocket science. But mistakes are made, sadly with tragic consequences. Just as in this case. This turned into a serious matter when the death occurred. All Fatals are treated as serious crime scenes and cases take months to get off the ground, regardless of the driver being a cop, or as an examle of a local one down here, a Champion Modified Sprint Car Racer.....


I suppose a lot of it comes back to, should we hold police to a higher standard than joe public? Lead by example etc. I think we should.

Also, who polices the police if they do a bad turn etc?

[Mr Merde]

Nothing has changed.
Just had lunch with my missus.
All shook up as she was travelling along the Takanini straight following a police car.


The said police car suddenly just pulls a u turn without any warning, no lights or siren on and travels in the opposite direction ( not even at speed).
She had to take evasive action in her car to avoid colliding with the car.

She didnt get time to take the number plate or any other ID.

For those of you unaware of the Takanini straight it is a very busy part of the Gt Sth Road in Papakura.

[scumdog]

I suppose a lot of it comes back to, should we hold police to a higher standard than joe public? Lead by example etc. I think we should.

Also, who polices the police if they do a bad turn etc?

Probably not an unreasonable expectation, however as I have said before cops are plucked from general society and yes unebelievably to some they are human and like all humans will make mistakes...some mistakes worse than others.

So say all applicant are screened in some manner that only allows those who will never make a mistake to be accepted?

Well in that case we'd have about 7 cops for the whole country - and that's an optimistic figure...

[SPman]

What's the penalty for 'Oblivious Driving'?
Oblivion?.......

[MSTRS]

Hey, at least we could trust them to do their jobs properly...

[bogan]

Probably not an unreasonable expectation, however as I have said before cops are plucked from general society and yes unebelievably to some they are human and like all humans will make mistakes...some mistakes worse than others.

So say all applicant are screened in some manner that only allows those who will never make a mistake to be accepted?

Well in that case we'd have about 7 cops for the whole country - and that's an optimistic figure...

I agree, mistakes will happen, but how hard is it to check the mirrors and blind spots every time a u-turn is performed? Or if such a mistake is made, it's not hard to offer an apology rather than driving off acting oblivious.

[MSTRS]

I agree, mistakes will happen, but how hard is it to check the mirrors and blind spots every time a u-turn is performed? Or if such a mistake is made, it's not hard to offer an apology rather than driving off acting oblivious.

Don't you know ANYTHING? Motorists are all just criminals who haven't been caught yet. One does not apologise to criminals.
Sheesh....

[bogan]

Don't you know ANYTHING? Motorists are all just criminals who haven't been caught yet. One does not apologise to criminals.
Sheesh....

oh, sorry I had thought it was only bikers who were criminals that just had'nt been caught yet :shifty:

[MSTRS]

Yeah. We're black collar criminals...

[bogan]

Yeah. We're black collar criminals...

though a cop did give me a thumbs up when i rode my bike on the footpath to let him through when he had his blues on, i don't think any of the cagers at the same lights even notice he was coming!

and we may be black collar criminals, but we are also NZ road VIPs now (thanks Nick!:sick:) so have extra lane splitting and cycle lane privelidges right? I mean we gotta get our moneys worth somehow :lol:

[MSTRS]

In fact, I suspect that we are becoming so important, that each of us will have our very own police escort. Before too much longer.
That'll change the game...a bit.

[Patrick]

Is there such a thing as careless/reckless driving causing death?
I know they guy that didn't give way and took me out with a truck?? got done for careless causing injury.
Not a dig...simply a question

Yes. This enquiry will be, which is it to be.......


I can understand the need to do investigation. I can also undersand why such an investigation 'could' take longer in the case of a cop.
Can we assume then, that this cop is already in receipt of a TON for Unsafe Manouevre $150, subject to the charge being increased to ...Causing Death, should his culpability be proved?

See, the thing is, right or wrong, we expect cops to be held to a higher standard than the rest of us. They are there to know, and uphold, 'the law'. Yet so often, this proves not to be the case. We have all become somewhat cynical over the years.

Nope. You can't start at the bottom end and work your way up. If he just received a $150 ticket (ION, not a TON) for a U turn, that would be the end of it..?

They will start at the high end.

One can be cynical about anything, really.... Such as motorbike riders being the cause of their own demise.... (some times.....)


I suppose a lot of it comes back to, should we hold police to a higher standard than joe public? Lead by example etc. I think we should.

Also, who polices the police if they do a bad turn etc?

Most Senior Sergeants/Sergeants. Our ones will write out tickets to cops, no problem. Had one crash after driving through a red light. Easy quota, according to some..... apparently.....


I agree, mistakes will happen, but how hard is it to check the mirrors and blind spots every time a u-turn is performed? Or if such a mistake is made, it's not hard to offer an apology rather than driving off acting oblivious.

Absolutely right. But some, I guess, are unaware of any wrong doing, even after the event, and will continue to drive like crap. But that is across the board, in all walks of life.....

[Patrick]

Nothing has changed.
Just had lunch with my missus.
All shook up as she was travelling along the Takanini straight following a police car.


The said police car suddenly just pulls a u turn without any warning, no lights or siren on and travels in the opposite direction ( not even at speed).
She had to take evasive action in her car to avoid colliding with the car.

She didnt get time to take the number plate or any other ID.

For those of you unaware of the Takanini straight it is a very busy part of the Gt Sth Road in Papakura.

Following too closely? (like almost every one on that stretch of road, at any time of day......).

BUt yeah, I wonder if they even realised they screwed up...

[MSTRS]

Nope. You can't start at the bottom end and work your way up. If he just received a $150 ticket (ION, not a TON) for a U turn, that would be the end of it..?
They will start at the high end.

Infringement Offence Notice? Not Traffic Of...?
So - if a member of the great unwashed pulled that stunt, with that result, you are saying it would be some time before a charge was laid? After SCU had done it's thing etc.

[MarkH]

Following too closely?

Mr Merde said she avoided the accident, so I'd say not following too closely. If she hadn't been far enough back then she may not have been able to avoid a collision - probably not the best way for a cop to test someone's reactions IMO.

[jahrasti]

Infringement Offence Notice? Not Traffic Of...?
So - if a member of the great unwashed pulled that stunt, with that result, you are saying it would be some time before a charge was laid? After SCU had done it's thing etc.

YES that is exactly the case.

[Conquiztador]

oh, sorry I had thought it was only bikers who were criminals that just had'nt been caught yet :shifty:

Judge Dredd (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000230/): It's a lie! The evidence has been falsified! It's impossible! I never broke the law, I AM THE LAW

[Cross Rider]

Another dukes of hazard event, how would you feel if your careless actions resulted in the death of another. A thought before acting can save you a life time of regret. Your lady was lucky thank goodness.

[Paul in NZ]

Is this stupid thread still going? I dare say that over the years more motorcyclists have been killed by other motorcyclists than police officers... Not to mention all the motorcyclists killing themselves. Perhaps we should hold ourselves to a higher standard?

[candor]

And from 3 news tonight. Paige Timothy - teenager passenger NOT DRIVER - killed by a pursuit found unsafe by the IPCA as it continued at over 150Kph in a 50kph zone. Chase was of stolen vehicle with multi young persons. Wrong with this picture, much.
Justice Goddard recommended easing off on teen chases, the problem should not have been exceeding 150kph but exceeding 50 full stop. In safer countries that regard human life as sacrosanct and discourage cowboy policing it has been acknowledged in pursuit policy that no stolen vehicle is worth the risk of a high speed pursuit, and passengered vehicles must not be chased. Passengers are often powerless to stop their idiot driver - risking their death to retrieve a couple of k worth of property and issue TONs is criminal.
As ex MP Rebel said "lead by example". And this threads not a diversion from bad biker behaviour - there are many topics aside from bad bikers, including bad boys in uniform. It is rumoured cops are encouraged to join just for the perk of speed exemptions and better gas grants than the Ministers $100 weekly, so this is why inquiries/messes are ignored.

[scumdog]

And from 3 news tonight. Paige Timothy - teenager passenger NOT DRIVER - killed by a pursuit found unsafe by the IPCA as it continued at over 150Kph in a 50kph zone. Chase was of stolen vehicle with multi young persons. Wrong with this picture, much.
Justice Goddard recommended easing off on teen chases, the problem should not have been exceeding 150kph but exceeding 50 full stop. In safer countries that regard human life as sacrosanct and discourage cowboy policing it has been acknowledged in pursuit policy that no stolen vehicle is worth the risk of a high speed pursuit, and passengered vehicles must not be chased. Passengers are often powerless to stop their idiot driver - risking their death to retrieve a couple of k worth of property and issue TONs is criminal.
As ex MP Rebel said "lead by example". And this threads not a diversion from bad biker behaviour - there are many topics aside from bad bikers, including bad boys in uniform. It is rumoured cops are encouraged to join just for the perk of speed exemptions and better gas grants than the Ministers $100 weekly, so this is why inquiries/messes are ignored.

Yeah, frickin cops chasing people until one is killed...

[Paul in NZ]

Yeah, frickin cops chasing people until one is killed...

Um - if you feel like chasing em till they is all killed - I've got a list and some addresses?

[Conquiztador]

Yeah, frickin cops chasing people until one is killed...

Trolling again.

There are two different things here (but you already knew that):
1. Chasing a perp. When the blue lights are flashing in your mirror the game is up. If you try to outrun them you only have your self to blame. If this was on a track and nobody else could get hurt, go for it! But in a city/built up area, and the car is filled with kids. Perhaps most of them have no idea that the car is stolen? ( Young girl: "Sweet wheels". Car thief: "Yep, you wanna ride?" Young girl: "Only if my two mates can come...")
2. Unsafe manouvers (U turns, 3 point turns) in stoopid places.

You are intelligent so I would be surprised if you did not agree. I don't have the answer here. I am just sad that kids are killed as a result of a mistake that could have been avoided.

[Katman]

Life's full of surprises.

[scumdog]

Life's full of surprises.

Yeah, even those instigating said event found the result was a surprise!

[red mermaid]

Wonderful what a little editing and summary in a persons own words does...

I read a report of this in the paper and it had a completely different slant and was supportive of the Police actions.



And from 3 news tonight. Paige Timothy - teenager passenger NOT DRIVER - killed by a pursuit found unsafe by the IPCA as it continued at over 150Kph in a 50kph zone. Chase was of stolen vehicle with multi young persons. Wrong with this picture, much.
Justice Goddard recommended easing off on teen chases, the problem should not have been exceeding 150kph but exceeding 50 full stop. In safer countries that regard human life as sacrosanct and discourage cowboy policing it has been acknowledged in pursuit policy that no stolen vehicle is worth the risk of a high speed pursuit, and passengered vehicles must not be chased. Passengers are often powerless to stop their idiot driver - risking their death to retrieve a couple of k worth of property and issue TONs is criminal.
As ex MP Rebel said "lead by example". And this threads not a diversion from bad biker behaviour - there are many topics aside from bad bikers, including bad boys in uniform. It is rumoured cops are encouraged to join just for the perk of speed exemptions and better gas grants than the Ministers $100 weekly, so this is why inquiries/messes are ignored.

[terbang]

I agree, mistakes will happen, but how hard is it to check the mirrors and blind spots every time a u-turn is performed? Or if such a mistake is made, it's not hard to offer an apology rather than driving off acting oblivious.

You are right, mistakes happen and police often have to operate on the fringe of society's safety zone. Or in other words they walk a thinner line than most of us and are more exposed to a dangerous error than the rest of us. Not an excuse for them, but a reality of their jobs. Heck they sometimes even have to face bullets.

However a U turn or a three point turn is a BASIC driving skill, with widely published safety measures and rules that all (plod included) are required to use. Hardly on the fringe of society's operation.

I also agree, where is the "human face" of our police? The one that will admit it's mistakes when they make them, or are we all to be continually reminded of the culture that covered up the Louise Nicholas case for 20 years?

[smoky]

F##kin useless cop if he had to do a 3 point turn there, in a V8 holden........ what a dick
Some one should teach them about handbrakes and hitting the gas

I bet his fat guts was in the way of being able to flick the steering wheel around, that's why he was doing a 3 point turn at the worst possible place.... at the worst possible time

[scumdog]

F##kin useless cop if he had to do a 3 point turn there, in a V8 holden........ what a dick
Some one should teach them about handbrakes and hitting the gas

I bet his fat guts was in the way of being able to flick the steering wheel around, that's why he was doing a 3 point turn at the worst possible place.... at the worst possible time

I bet your fat useless guts was in the way of your fat useless brain...if you have a brain...

[smoky]

I bet your fat useless guts was in the way of your fat useless brain...if you have a brain...

You cops are all the same, do something stupid that kills someone and all you can do is try to pass the blame to some one else - you're all a bunch of half wit inbred power freaks. From the comments you make on KB Scummy; you live up to the reputation of a dumb cop. I've never met a cop who could drive to save himself, you're all a bunch of tossers

[scumdog]

You cops are all the same, do something stupid that kills someone and all you can do is try to pass the blame to some one else - you're all a bunch of half wit inbred power freaks. From the comments you make on KB Scummy; you live up to the reputation of a dumb cop. I've never met a cop who could drive to save himself, you're all a bunch of tossers

Hmmm, you make it all sound so negative somehow....ah well, it's your opinion I guess...

[jahrasti]

You cops are all the same, do something stupid that kills someone and all you can do is try to pass the blame to some one else - you're all a bunch of half wit inbred power freaks. From the comments you make on KB Scummy; you live up to the reputation of a dumb cop. I've never met a cop who could drive to save himself, you're all a bunch of tossers

You trollers are all the same. You talk some smack with out facts- You are all a bunch of man love movie making freaks. From the comments you make on KB Smoky; you live up to the reputation of an arse punching troller. I've never met a troller who could post to save himself, You're all a bunch of tossers.


Wow trolling realy is easy.

[caseye]

Trolling, wot? abart ere? Na git away wiv ya!
Chase the stolen car everytime, 99% of the time it will contain at least one known fellon, most likely with outstanding warants for arrest, drugs of one sort or another, weapons of mas destruction, light sabres(imagine if they ever got into the wrong hands)
Collateral damage is what the Yanks call it when someone who is not directly involved gets hurt or killed.
The amount of collateral damage can and will be directly affected by how responsible the parents of young teens are and how well they've taught their kids the rights and wrongs of life.
Sad fact but if they are in a stolen car when it crashes they suffer the same fate as the person(scumbag) who stole it.
Unless they were hog tied and thrown in that car, no one can tell me they didn't know what the posible outcome would be.
So tell me do we stop running down the street yelling stop thief in the hope that some nice stanger will intervene?
Do we simply let our cars and our personal belongings be taken by anyone who thinks"I'll have that"
Do we give up our most precious possessions without a fight casue it's not worth it?
Wheres your frigging back bones???????????
We have already reached the point where the Police cannot attend every burglary, or every assault or every attempted murder, where we're now told, by Police, you should not be in your own home without locking the front door while you are there, in your own home, on your property, for fear of some arsehole simply walking in and taking your stuff or your children.
Have we not given the low life, bottom dwelling, scum sucking, shit heads, ENOUGH?
Police involved in motor vehicle crashes where it's found theywere at fault, are dealt with far more severely than any ordinary joe bloggs and as if thats not bad enough they no longer have a job to boot.
They ain't perfect but they are ours, we should be supporting them in everything they do.
Most chases end with the stolen car driver and associates taken into custody, with no accidents and no one else hurt.
Should we seriously let them think, that as long as they drive dangerously enough, they will be allowed to get away?

[smoky]

You are all a bunch of man love movie making freaks. .... of an arse punching troller...

You sound like you have some internal suppressed homosexual conflicts - it's alright dude, it's 2010, it's ok to be gay, in fact it impresses the girls, you can come out that closet

[Max Preload]

Have any charges been laid yet? I only ask because that guy that mounted the kerb in his car killing the 4-year old last month was charged today. But this incident is now 2 months old (I know they have 6 months).

[henderson159]

So... whats happening

[miloking]

So... whats happening

Yep exactly... talk to our fuzz about their "independent investigation"...

any day now tho, just hang on!

[Patrick]

Yep exactly... talk to our fuzz about their "independent investigation"...

any day now tho, just hang on!

Sure.... what would you like to know?

Should they rush it through and stuff it up?

Or get it right the first time.....

Your call......

[swbarnett]

Sure.... what would you like to know?

Should they rush it through and stuff it up?

Or get it right the first time.....

Your call......
It matters not whether the investigation is done right. Or even whether it's impartial. What matters is that the investigation is seen to be done right. No internal investigation by the police themselves is going to be seen by the public at large as impartial unless the cop is lynched (whether this is deserved or not).

[miloking]

Sure.... what would you like to know?

Should they rush it through and stuff it up?

Or get it right the first time.....

Your call......

Well....its been 3 months now so how much more is there to "investigate"? ...its not like they are still looking for killer or motive/evidence. It was all quite simple.. so realy how long does such a investigation take? Year or two? (while the cop/killer is probably on paid "holiday")

[Patrick]

..... No internal investigation by the police themselves is going to be seen by the public at large as impartial unless the cop is lynched (whether this is deserved or not).

:laugh::rofl::killingme

Yep... two rules all right.... one for those in the Police, and one for everyone else.....


Well....its been 3 months now so how much more is there to "investigate"? ...its not like they are still looking for killer or motive/evidence. It was all quite simple.. so realy how long does such a investigation take? Year or two? (while the cop/killer is probably on paid "holiday")

Most of our fatal reports are taking up to 4-6 months to be completed..... so if it's onl;y been three, then patience, arse cropper....

All in all, it seems quite simple.... but unlike many on here, I know very little of all the "facts."

[MSTRS]

...it seems quite simple....

OK. I'll say it.
It is very simple.
Cop spies speeding vehicle. He turns to chase, but in a very stupid place. T-boned by a motorcyclist who was unable to stop in time. Biker dies.
Simple.

[PrincessBandit]

Most of our fatal reports are taking up to 4-6 months to be completed..... so if it's onl;y been three, then patience, arse cropper....



Come now, don't let something as insignificant as that get in the way of a good rabid mouth-frothing episode.

[Patrick]

Come now, don't let something as insignificant as that get in the way of a good rabid mouth-frothing episode.

What was I thinking..... :doh: Apologies....:yes:

[Patrick]

OK. I'll say it.
It is very simple.
Cop spies speeding vehicle. He turns to chase, but in a very stupid place. T-boned by a motorcyclist who was unable to stop in time. Biker dies.
Simple.

So why was the biker unable to stop in time?

Biker speeding? Ute speeding?

Dunno. Wasn't there....... but this path has been ventured down before.... and no, I'm not sticking up for the copper. Just like I am not sticking up for the biker. Or the ute driver.

But are there a few lessons for all, from this bad event?

[MarkH]

So why was the biker unable to stop in time?

Biker speeding?

I have to agree that we cannot declare the biker blameless, but then again he has lost his life - surely no one thinks that he needs to be punished further for his share of the blame in this incident?

Now, the police officer - what punishment is suitable for his involvement in the incident that ended a person's life? I guess we'll have to see what happens to him whenever the investigation concludes. It would be great if it didn't take another 3 month before we heard anything, but there isn't much we can do except wait.

[avgas]

But are there a few lessons for all, from this bad event?
When posting on KB assume responses may contain traces of nuts.

[MSTRS]

So why was the biker unable to stop in time?

Biker speeding? Ute speeding?



Alleged ute speeding is immaterial. Cop was across the road in a bad place, regardless of his stated reason why.
Bike speeding? The rider's attempts to stop/avoid the cop car will no doubt be obvious in the marks left. From those, I believe the SCU is pretty good at determining the speed involved. 5 minutes on a calculator should do it...

The fact that there is a deafening silence as regards the speed of the bike could be indicative of what their calcs showed.

[red mermaid]

You obviously know absolutely nothing about crash investigation, the standard involved, and the reviews that any findings will be subject too.



Alleged ute speeding is immaterial. Cop was across the road in a bad place, regardless of his stated reason why.
Bike speeding? The rider's attempts to stop/avoid the cop car will no doubt be obvious in the marks left. From those, I believe the SCU is pretty good at determining the speed involved. 5 minutes on a calculator should do it...

The fact that there is a deafening silence as regards the speed of the bike could be indicative of what their calcs showed.

[MSTRS]

You obviously know absolutely nothing about crash investigation, the standard involved, and the reviews that any findings will be subject too.

I know enough to know that I don't know a lot. True.
However, the double fatality on SH5 a week or so ago...headon between SUV and SW. The very next day the cops were saying they knew which vehicle crossed the line, but were not going to release that info.
Determining speed might be a little more difficult, sure, but the fact is, they must know what speed the bike was doing, yet they are not even hinting. Unlike the Buller Gorge episode...

[scumdog]

You obviously know absolutely nothing about crash investigation, the standard involved, and the reviews that any findings will be subject too.

You summed up a shit-load of KB posters....:shifty:

[miloking]

You obviously know absolutely nothing about crash investigation, the standard involved, and the reviews that any findings will be subject too.

You summed up a shit-load of KB posters....:shifty:

Thats true we know nothing...makes it even more simple for cops to fuck with evidence and come up with "inconclusive" results of investigation....

In the end SCU will say that cop wasnt even driving the car at the time or sun was in his eyes and he couldnt see or any such bullshit and he will get away scot free... mark my words thats exactly whats going to happen.

[scumdog]

Thats true we know nothing...makes it even more simple for cops to fuck with evidence and come up with "inconclusive" results of investigation....

In the end SCU will say that cop wasnt even driving the car at the time or sun was in his eyes and he couldnt see or any such bullshit and he will get away scot free... mark my words thats exactly whats going to happen.

And ain't THAT the truth...enjoy!:Pokey:

[Patrick]

When posting on KB assume responses may contain traces of nuts.

Hoping more for some to wake up and smell the coffee. Obviously hoping for too much..... Counting down to newxt biker down thread......


Alleged ute speeding is immaterial. Cop was across the road in a bad place, regardless of his stated reason why.
Bike speeding? The rider's attempts to stop/avoid the cop car will no doubt be obvious in the marks left. From those, I believe the SCU is pretty good at determining the speed involved. 5 minutes on a calculator should do it...

The fact that there is a deafening silence as regards the speed of the bike could be indicative of what their calcs showed.

Just from the marks? Sorry, fella.... there is a shit load more than that. There is mapping, there is toxicology, there is plenty of other things that need to be checked, all the tees crossed, i's dotted.... just so there can be no claim of a coverup/conspiracy......:rolleyes::zzzz::zzzz:


Thats true we know nothing...makes it even more simple for cops to fuck with evidence and come up with "inconclusive" results of investigation....

In the end SCU will say that cop wasnt even driving the car at the time or sun was in his eyes and he couldnt see or any such bullshit and he will get away scot free... mark my words thats exactly whats going to happen.

And when that doesn't happen... like it didn't happen in the Buller Gorge thing, like so many said it would...... :rolleyes::zzzz::zzzz:..... what then?

[MSTRS]

Just from the marks? Sorry, fella.... there is a shit load more than that. There is mapping, there is toxicology, there is plenty of other things that need to be checked, all the tees crossed, i's dotted.... just so there can be no claim of a coverup/conspiracy......:rolleyes::zzzz::zzzz:



The physical evidence left on the road will be the determining factor in deciding what speed the biker was doing. The point from which he 'should have seen' the car blocking the road to the point where the skid marks start will be used (in conjunction with said tox report) and factoring in the rider's likely reaction time, should tell the SCU what speed he was doing at the point he began braking. Assumptions from that will be weighed against the indicative speed from the skid marks. So they have 2 distinct factors to determine the likely speed of the bike.
N'est pas?
All I am saying is - the silence on what that speed was is 'interesting', esp when the Buller Gorge event had howls of 'Those bikers were speeding" from the cop/s before the dust had even settled.

[scumdog]

And so the tumbril crowded with KB 'Monday morning quarter-backs', arm-chair experts and key-board warriors rumbles on relentlessly....:shifty:

[miloking]

And so the tumbril crowded with KB 'Monday morning quarter-backs', arm-chair experts and key-board warriors rumbles on relentlessly....:shifty:


Those key-board warriors and arm-chair experts happen to be taxpayers and people that vote just like you... so just because you've spend month in academy jerking around in a holden around some cones and got badge at the end of it doesnt make you guys any more "expert" than any of us "mere mortals" that are here on KB!

[rastuscat]

Those key-board warriors and arm-chair experts happen to be taxpayers and people that vote just like you... so just because you've spend month in academy jerking around in a holden around some cones and got badge at the end of it doesnt make you guys any more "expert" than any of us "mere mortals" that are here on KB!

Quite agree.

However, the time spent at the college and the time spent in the job tells us how the politics and practicalities of evidence collection and analysis takes time. Too much time.

The only thing worse than an investigation that takes ages is one that is brief and comes up with an incorrect result.

Let's face it, regardless of the facts, everyone on here has already declared the Popo guilty. He may be, but until it gets the judicial rubber stamp, it ain't official.

In truth, I do wonder why things take so long, but I'd still rather they took their time and did it properly. Until I know exactly the complexities of the case in point, I'm not going to judge the investigation.

Assuming that we on KB know all the facts is just a little dangerous, so I ain't falling into that trap.

So there.

[scumdog]

Those key-board warriors and arm-chair experts happen to be taxpayers and people that vote just like you... so just because you've spend month in academy jerking around in a holden around some cones and got badge at the end of it doesnt make you guys any more "expert" than any of us "mere mortals" that are here on KB!

Pffft!

ROFL to the max...

I guess it's a good way to look at any job you've never done, easy way out....

[Max Preload]

They were pretty quick to charge the guy who lost control and went up onto the footpath killing that kid. Why are they dragging the chain on this one?

[denill]

They were pretty quick to charge the guy who lost control and went up onto the footpath killing that kid. Why are they dragging the chain on this one?

A GOOD comparison? :mellow:

[jahrasti]

They were pretty quick to charge the guy who lost control and went up onto the footpath killing that kid. Why are they dragging the chain on this one?

How do you know that he hasn't been charged?

[Patrick]

They were pretty quick to charge the guy who lost control and went up onto the footpath killing that kid. Why are they dragging the chain on this one?


A GOOD comparison? :mellow:

ROFL. 1 car only = Pretty simple really. Not even a close comparison.

If said copper gets charged and his lawyer asks for full disclosure, as they always do, just like for anyone else charged with anything.... how silly would it look if all the evidence isn't there, isn't measured up, isn't calculated, isn't even considered and all......? Would be a conspiracy, for sure.......:shifty: Blardy dodgy......:shifty:

[bent12]

yea FUCK OFF - no cop car = no crash

[scumdog]

yea FUCK OFF - no cop car = no crash

Ooooh, another braniac on KB, no doubt MENSA will be hounding you to join them:rolleyes:

[MSTRS]

Ooooh, another braniac on KB, no doubt MENSA will be hounding you to join them:rolleyes:

Is that the South African men's rights group?

[bent12]

Ooooh, another braniac on KB, no doubt MENSA will be hounding you to join them:rolleyes:

dogshit - don't roll your eyes you may stand in some

[Patrick]

yea FUCK OFF - no cop car = no crash

And by the same reckoning...

NO speeding ute, no U turn....????

[bent12]

And by the same reckoning...

NO speeding ute, no U turn....????

KISS for a simple life - peril complication - the primary road function = people moving forward in accord - this scenario deviant is authoritarian in nature and prone to chasing people from any direction - UturnUboat has claimed another swastika

[MarkH]

And by the same reckoning...

NO speeding ute, no U turn....????

Not quite the same reckoning IMO. The driver of the ute has 0% responsibility for the crash and is guilty of no more than exceeding the speed limit. The ute driver may deserve an $80 or $120 fine for speeding, but he certainly deserves no guilt or responsibility for the death of the motorcyclist.

I agree that it isn't just the police officer at fault, the accident was caused by 2 vehicles - the police car and the motorcycle. The police office being the person that really should have known better than put lives at risk for the sake of issuing a traffic infringement ticket, I think we should expect better! The motorcyclist was unable to stop within the visible distance ahead of him, but unless anyone thinks his widow should pay a fine for that then we should forget about his part in this and accept that he has already paid way too high a price.

The issue yet to be resolved is what the police officer should pay for his part in the death of a motorist. My view is that as a road safety officer he has proven to be incompetent - being at least partly responsible for an accident causing death isn't what road safety is about. He should at least lose his job and face some sort of charges like dangerous driving causing death.

Blaming the ute driver sound like an attempt to deflect the blame and I hope that shit doesn't get tried in court.

[bogan]

And by the same reckoning...

NO speeding ute, no U turn....????

and by the same reckoning, even more speeding on the ute and they would have crossed paths further down the road where a u-turn was safe. It's like that ad they got with the dude in the shitbox corrolla iirc, he should have sped more an passed people on the road then he would had passed the other car at a different point and not lost control into the power pole :shit:

[MSTRS]

And by the same reckoning...

NO speeding ute, no U turn....????

That's a red herring. The cop could (as anyone is allowed) have chosen to do a U-turn for any/no reason. His choice of where to pull that manouevre is the primary cause of the crash.
It is possible that the motorcyclist bore a small part of fault, since he couldn't stop in half the visible distance ahead. He may or not have been over the speed limit, no-one's saying. But in those circumstances of travelling on a straight road, and coming over the brow of a hill...there, but for the grace of, go 99% of us...hmmm?

[Patrick]

Not quite the same reckoning IMO. The driver of the ute has 0% responsibility for the crash and is guilty of no more than exceeding the speed limit. The ute driver may deserve an $80 or $120 fine for speeding, but he certainly deserves no guilt or responsibility for the death of the motorcyclist.

Not so sure. If I was the ute driver and it was my "mate" on the bike that got killed, then I would have guilt............. and hold myself to SOME level of responsibility......

The cause however, is completely different and not in dispute, from what I know on here...... BUt fact and fiction can be two different things.

I agree that it isn't just the police officer at fault, the accident was caused by 2 vehicles - the police car and the motorcycle. The police office being the person that really should have known better than put lives at risk for the sake of issuing a traffic infringement ticket, I think we should expect better! The motorcyclist was unable to stop within the visible distance ahead of him, but unless anyone thinks his widow should pay a fine for that then we should forget about his part in this and accept that he has already paid way too high a price.

No argument. Agreed totally.....

The issue yet to be resolved is what the police officer should pay for his part in the death of a motorist. My view is that as a road safety officer he has proven to be incompetent - being at least partly responsible for an accident causing death isn't what road safety is about. He should at least lose his job and face some sort of charges like dangerous driving causing death.

It probably will happen. As for losing the job, well, not many others would. 30 plus years of clean record driving and duty won't count for much after ones life is lost. But like anyone else, he is innocent until proven guilty. I heard that somewhere......

Blaming the ute driver sound like an attempt to deflect the blame and I hope that shit doesn't get tried in court.

So some say. We've done this over and over, and it is not what I mean. The cause is the U turn.

How fast was the bike going? I don't know yet, but did it "play a part?" I don't know..... possibly.....?

The U turn resulted from a speeding ute? Did that too "play a part?" I would say so...

[Patrick]

KISS for a simple life - peril complication - the primary road function = people moving forward in accord - this scenario deviant is authoritarian in nature and prone to chasing people from any direction - UturnUboat has claimed another swastika

So how many "swastikas" has this "Uboat" earned? "Another...???" you say.....???

One too many...... sadly......

[bent12]

So how many "swastikas" has this "Uboat" earned? "Another...???" you say.....???

One too many...... sadly......

Uboat captain John Key - deputy Judith Collins says no amount is enough - keep harvesting

[Patrick]

Uboat captain John Key - deputy Judith Collins says no amount is enough - keep harvesting

Zen I vil be zent to ze cold front az I see nussing.... I see nussing.....

[MarkH]

The U turn resulted from a speeding ute? Did that too "play a part?" I would say so...

I would say that is a stretch. The ute driver had no control over the police officers car and it wasn't his choice on whether/how/where to turn. The decision to make the turn where it was made came solely from within the head of the police officer driving the car. I just don't see how the blame for that U-turn can be spread any where else. The ute driver made it home safely without killing anybody, why blame him for the wrong-headed decision of a police officer.

If a boy racer is racing someone and spots a cop car, causing him to panic, which causes him to lose control and that leads to him hitting and killing a pedestrian - is the police officer in the cop car partly responsible for the death of that pedestrian? Personally I would say not even in the slightest. Same here - the ute driver isn't even in slightest amount responsible for what the police officer chose to do.

I think all police officers have a duty to not drive in a reckless many that endangers the public that they are sworn to protect, even when they are REALLY keen to write a ticket. I would hope that the vast majority of the police force are more careful about when & where they attempt a U-turn.

[igor]

They were pretty quick to charge the guy who lost control and went up onto the footpath killing that kid. Why are they dragging the chain on this one?

I beleive he was charged about 2 weeks from memory and appeared in Court.

[Patrick]

If a boy racer is racing someone and spots a cop car, causing him to panic, which causes him to lose control and that leads to him hitting and killing a pedestrian - is the police officer in the cop car partly responsible for the death of that pedestrian? Personally I would say not even in the slightest. Same here - the ute driver isn't even in slightest amount responsible for what the police officer chose to do.

Not even similar. * IF * the Ute was speeding, that caused a reaction from the cop, as bad as it turned out to be.......

The boy racer scenario is just daft. The cop wasn't doing anything wrong in the first place, so yeah, not even the slightest.

I think all police officers have a duty to not drive in a reckless many that endangers the public that they are sworn to protect, even when they are REALLY keen to write a ticket. I would hope that the vast majority of the police force are more careful about when & where they attempt a U-turn.

Fair call. So do I. Just two incidents that ended badly makes it all seem like we all do it... apparently.... It aint about writing the ticket. Never has been. It's about doing your job, but this one got it so badly wrong.....

[Max Preload]

Anyone heard anything?

To be fair it has only been almost 7 months...

[Patrick]

Anyone heard anything?

To be fair it has only been almost 7 months...

To be fair, there should have been an answer by now........

[igor]

ring the court and ask them. tell them u are a busy body and want to be updated

[denill]

It's a fair call to ask what's happened.

It's all about - consequences that arise from one's actions.

A guy pulled a trigger in Taupo that he wished he hadn't. But 'wishing he hadn't' is not going to help anyone. Him or the victim.

Same in this case.

[jahrasti]

There has been a lot of movement in this incident.

I not going to post details, but it is nothing that can't be found out by any member of the public.

Cryptic yes, pain in the arse not saying yes, just read between the lines.:shutup:

[Patrick]

There has been a lot of movement in this incident.

I not going to post details, but it is nothing that can't be found out by any member of the public.

Cryptic yes, pain in the arse not saying yes, just read between the lines.:shutup:

Reading between the lines... I even highlighted it... but it still doesn't tell me anything...

[cowboyz]

why is the outcome not public record?

[Bald Eagle]

why is the outcome not public record?

cos it's probably not an outcome yet.

[cowboyz]

oh.. they havent figured out how to blame everyone else but the police yet?


right.. more waiting then....

[Max Preload]

Reading between the lines... I even highlighted it... but it still doesn't tell me anything...Me either. It's like a complete media blackout.

[phill-k]

There has been a lot of movement in this incident.

I not going to post details, but it is nothing that can't be found out by any member of the public.

Cryptic yes, pain in the arse not saying yes, just read between the lines.:shutup:

If its in the public domain why come on here and post like you have, if you are not in a position to give the information do yourself a favour and just don't post

[jahrasti]

There has been a lot of movement in this incident.

I not going to post details, but it is nothing that can't be found out by any member of the public.

Cryptic yes, pain in the arse not saying yes, just read between the lines.:shutup:


Reading between the lines... I even highlighted it... but it still doesn't tell me anything...

refer to pst below


why is the outcome not public record?

see bald egles comment

cos it's probably not an outcome yet.

thank you

oh.. they havent figured out how to blame everyone else but the police yet?


right.. more waiting then....

good call well done


Me either. It's like a complete media blackout.

It is way past the life span of the media, they have moved onto meth drivers and people who leave kids at MD's


If its in the public domain why come on here and post like you have, if you are not in a position to give the information do yourself a favour and just don't post

there are plenty of posts that talk bollacks every day, why can't I be different.
I am actually trying to help. I was told in confidence and it will stay that way. You can flame me all you like

there are avenues that one can go down to gleen the information.
My advice would be to try an Official Information Act (OIA) request.

[Katman]

oh.. they havent figured out how to blame everyone else but the police yet?


They should spend more time on KB.

[MSTRS]

...2 posts...



Your first post smacks of a kid with a secret. He wants everyone to know he has a secret. But he won't reveal the secret itself.
What was the point of your post, again?

[scumdog]

Your first post smacks of a kid with a secret. He wants everyone to know he has a secret. But he won't reveal the secret itself.
What was the point of your post, again?

To wind up people like you...????<_<:msn-wink:

[MSTRS]

Well, waddaya know. Someone bit on my troll...

[scumdog]

Well, waddaya know. Someone bit on my troll...

BITE?

Call that a bite?

I'll show you a bite...oh..hang on...:blink::shutup:

(I'm waiting for somebody to bite at MY post, don't go scaring them off like that!)

[slofox]

Had an interesting situation last Sunday evening.

Lilfox and I were returning from d'Auckland, (in her cage) driving through Ngaruawahia in the 50km zone...A patrol car pulled out from a side road up ahead of us. We continued on behind.

A little way up the road, the patrol car indicates a right turn (no intersection here by the way - just on a straight piece of road.) He then pulls to the left hand side of the road and stops, still indicating a right turn.

Given the history of U-turning patrol cars, I was decided dodgy about passing it when it was indicating a right turn. I figured if I went past and he spun across and clobbered me, it would be deemed to be myself at fault. So I stopped, flicked the headlights to indicate I would wait, and he turned across. Just slightly inconveniencing the traffic coming the other way. I did get a smile and wave of acknowledgment for my troubles...

I woulda done the same on the bike. ESPECIALLY on the bike...:blink:

[Littleman]

Aahh, yes, the old 'I'm winding you up' accusation when someone holds you to account and erodes your argument on the internet.

The adult version of 'thats you but what am I'.

Brilliant stuff.

[Max Preload]

Tick tock tick tock... this is really getting beyond a farce... :mega:

[trustme]

It appears that charges have been laid against the police officer ' Dangerous driving causing death '.
The wheels of justice grind slowly but they do get there.

[denill]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4866212/Undesirable-actions-in-fatal-accident

The officer has been charged with dangerous driving causing death and injury and as the case is before the courts, the IPCA made no finding as to whether his actions were contrary to law.

But Justice Goddard said the decision to charge him was justified and she called his decision to attempt a u-turn at that location highly undesirable.

[Elysium]

Still interesting the speed Mr Brown was estimated at, 135 and 155kmh. Though not sure if it really made a difference in the end but just that some people out there are going to use that against us bikers to justify higher ACC, Rego etc..

Still the end the police offcier made a very poor choice and ended a mans life for the sake of a speeding ticket quoter.

[Chancebmx25]

harry potter

[red mermaid]

Another interesting comment in that Stuff news article was;

"The police officer's blood alcohol breath test came back negative, while Mr Brown's was also below the legal limit."

NB: It does not say Browns was negative, it says below the legal limit.

[DMNTD]

Another interesting comment in that Stuff news article was;

"The police officer's blood alcohol breath test came back negative, while Mr Brown's was also below the legal limit."

NB: It does not say Browns was negative, it says below the legal limit.

'Interesting' how?

[ynot slow]

Another interesting comment in that Stuff news article was;

"The police officer's blood alcohol breath test came back negative, while Mr Brown's was also below the legal limit."

NB: It does not say Browns was negative, it says below the legal limit.

Nice to see the cop was clean,as should each and every person driving when using a vehicle is part of their job,most people if crashing a company vehicle would be fired if testing positive I believe.The rider obviously had had a beer or two(unlike those on highway patrol having "a couple")so alcohol was evident in his system.But the reprter could've said both blood alcohol tests were negative.

[fastoyz]

"A police crash investigator told the ICA any speed above 101 kmh may have been too fast for Mr Brown to brake in time"

i loved this line..... so if paul was going 100 he would have stopped in time? i keep forgetting the magical powers that 100kmh have :gob:

[MSTRS]

Another interesting comment in that Stuff news article was;

"The police officer's blood alcohol breath test came back negative, while Mr Brown's was also below the legal limit."

NB: It does not say Browns was negative, it says below the legal limit.

What a twisted crock of shit. There's nothing 'interesting' about a cop twisting facts to cast aspersions...

[trustme]

No twisting of facts. Both the rider & driver had been drinking at farmer 'Joes', although the driver was a later arrival. Surprised it came out so quick.

It's before the courts so perhaps we should all wait for the facts before casting aspertions.

[zeocen]

kill the cop aswell get that cunt of our roads and the rest of them 4 wheeled cunts

There's people like this still around?

[Berg]

kill the cop aswell get that cunt of our roads and the rest of them 4 wheeled cunts
If you get that massive "chip" off your shoulder it will improve your power to weight ratio.
Unpleasantries like that should be kept to yourself.

[MSTRS]

It is twisting. The facts are what they are. How they are stated paints a picture - in this case, one that attempts to make the cop involved look better.

[scumdog]

It is twisting. The facts are what they are. How they are stated paints a picture - in this case, one that attempts to make the cop involved look better.

Ah, the good old media - ya can get them to put a spin whichever way ya want eh!

[scumdog]

the reprter could've said both blood alcohol tests were negative.

'Negative' means NO alcohol.

It doesn't mean "Oh, he was below the legal limit".:no:

[MSTRS]

Ah, the good old media - ya can get them to put a spin whichever way ya want eh!

If only...depends who's doing the wanting. Don't you think a lot of us tried when Nick the Prick, John Judge etc were spouting their lies?

[sinned]

While it is fashionable and so KB to criticize media and police reports for how they present facts I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of what has been reported. Negative is nil and below the limit is above nil - end of story.

[scumdog]

While it is fashionable and so KB to criticize media and police reports for how they present facts I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of what has been reported. Negative is nil and below the limit is above nil - end of story.

Hmmm...in your OPINION maybe...

i.e. in Coroners Court etc 'negative' means there wasn't any, zilch, nadda, none, zero.

Any reading/level at all ? - the figures are quoted.:yes:

I've never heard of "..gave a negative reading of 385...":blink:

[red mermaid]

Also interesting that, as quoted in the story;

"An expert engineering consultant estimated Mr Brown was travelling between 135 and 155kmh before he hit his brakes."

The upper limit of this speed is very close to the speed check of 154 km/h that was the cause of this U turn.

Could it be possible both vehicles were racing?

[Genie]

Also interesting that, as quoted in the story;

"An expert engineering consultant estimated Mr Brown was travelling between 135 and 155kmh before he hit his brakes."

The upper limit of this speed is very close to the speed check of 154 km/h that was the cause of this U turn.

Could it be possible both vehicles were racing?

Are you serious? I think you're just looking to wind up some folk, how about you piss off ....:bye:

[FJRider]

Are you serious? I think you're just looking to wind up some folk, how about you piss off ....:bye:

You are far too polite ... :innocent:

[bogan]

Also interesting that, as quoted in the story;

"An expert engineering consultant estimated Mr Brown was travelling between 135 and 155kmh before he hit his brakes."

The upper limit of this speed is very close to the speed check of 154 km/h that was the cause of this U turn.

Could it be possible both vehicles were racing?

Well I've heard speed kills used as a threat/deterrent fairly often, also in the odd crash analysis, but this is the first time I've seen it used as a fucking excuse.

[trustme]

Also interesting that, as quoted in the story;

"An expert engineering consultant estimated Mr Brown was travelling between 135 and 155kmh before he hit his brakes."

The upper limit of this speed is very close to the speed check of 154 km/h that was the cause of this U turn.

Could it be possible both vehicles were racing?

Both parties leave from the same place heading in the same direction at high speed. Nah could not possibly be a race.:shit::shit::shit::facepalm::facepalm::shutup ::shutup:

[Smifffy]

Hmmm...in your OPINION maybe...

i.e. in Coroners Court etc 'negative' means there wasn't any, zilch, nadda, none, zero.

Any reading/level at all ? - the figures are quoted.:yes:

I've never heard of "..gave a negative reading of 385...":blink:

I suggest you re-read, carefully, the last sentence of what you quoted.

Or are you just that ready for an argument that you argue against someone that agrees with you?

[scracha]

Also interesting that, as quoted in the story;

"An expert engineering consultant estimated Mr Brown was travelling between 135 and 155kmh before he hit his brakes."

The upper limit of this speed is very close to the speed check of 154 km/h that was the cause of this U turn.

Could it be possible both vehicles were racing?
Anything is possible. A large motorcycle racing a diesel bunta or whatever the hell the ute was, seems improbable. The ute doing 154 seems improbably. Regardless of the speed, the cop clearly pulled a U in a damn stupid place. Anybody who has driven on that road knows this. Misguided comments like yours get my SO ANGRY

As for this so called "expert engineering consultant", aside from sheer incompetence level, I'd question how impartial he is.

Who chooses which engineering consultant gets this job?
Who pays for the majority of this consultant's work?


`I can tell you as a FACT that when a bike is in an accident, there's normally far too many variables** to even REMOTELY accurately estimate the speed it was going, based solely on where it ended up. How the fuck he can estimate the speed the bike was going at BEFORE it braked is a real effort. Any so called consultant who states otherwise in court is a damn liar.

** JUST FOR STARTERS
When did he start braking ?
Did he brake "properly"?
Did he continue braking?
Was the bike partly leaned over?
What was coefficient of friction on the road?
What was the drag coefficient of the bike with rider sat up?
What was the drag coefficient of the bike with the rider in a "racing" crouch?
What was the drag coefficient of the bike without rider?
What part of the road was he on?
What was the temperature of road?
What was the temperature of tyre?
How was his suspension adjusted?
How were his tyres inflated?
Where was he positioned on the bike?
Where exactly (if at all) did the bike "fall over"?
What was the coefficient of friction when the bike was on its side?
What was the coefficient of friction when the bike was on its side after it flipped over?
How many times did it flip over?
Did it "bounce" and lose contact with the road?
What was the coefficient of friction when the bike was on its side and it's fairing had ground down?

[Katman]

** JUST FOR STARTERS
When did he start braking ?
Did he brake "properly"?
Did he continue braking?
Was the bike partly leaned over?
What was coefficient of friction on the road?
What was the drag coefficient of the bike with rider sat up?
What was the drag coefficient of the bike with the rider in a "racing" crouch?
What was the drag coefficient of the bike without rider?
What part of the road was he on?
What was the temperature of road?
What was the temperature of tyre?
How was his suspension adjusted?
How were his tyres inflated?
Where was he positioned on the bike?
Where exactly (if at all) did the bike "fall over"?
What was the coefficient of friction when the bike was on its side?
What was the coefficient of friction when the bike was on its side after it flipped over?
How many times did it flip over?
Did it "bounce" and lose contact with the road?
What was the coefficient of friction when the bike was on its side and it's fairing had ground down?

Phew!!! You must have run out of straws to clutch after that mouthful.

[Smifffy]

I'm confident that Justice Goddard has appraised the situation fairly and appropriately.

There will always be those in the force that believe that every officer is beyond reproach.

Like the fascist bully boy in the wild west that reckons 8 people are all lying.

[idb]

kill the cop aswell get that cunt of our roads and the rest of them 4 wheeled cunts

And cocks...they should keep cocks off the road as well...eh cock?

[Chancebmx25]

And cocks...they should keep cocks off the road as well...eh cock?

apologies didnt mean it like that. just hate it when a fellow biker dies

[idb]

apologies didnt mean it like that. just hate it when a fellow biker dies

Ok, cheers

[trustme]

Phew!!! You must have run out of straws to clutch after that mouthful.

+1 have not had such a good laugh in ages.

I don't think the officer is beyond reproach, far from it. I also suspect that the 2 other parties involved in this mess are far from blameless.

[scracha]

+1 have not had such a good laugh in ages.

Hardly a funny incident if you ask me. The only thing I'm laughing about is that most of you are so apathetic about anything that doesn't affect you directly. You're quite content to believe the lies and statistics the government controlled media in this country feeds you.
Of course these nasty horrible bikers are all speedign and riding like arseholes.
Of courise it was their fault.
Of course it couldn't be the nice policeman's fault.
Speed kills, if you speed you deserve to die.
Happy happy Kiwi's, New Zealand is nirvana and the rest of the world is wrong.

Newsflash for you, Katman and your ilk :- they'll come for you soon enough but nobody else will be around to help you.

[trustme]

Just what the world needs , another conspiracy theorist. We never landed on the moon, the CIA blew up the twin towers, it's all a govt plot through govt controlled media. I never realised Rupert Murdoch & Ted Turner were civil servants.:whocares::whocares::whocares:

[Katman]

Hardly a funny incident if you ask me.

You're right, approaching a blind crest at a speed that gives you no hope of avoiding something in your path is certainly no joke.

You're so hung up on trying to apportion blame that you happily turn a blind eye to the concept of trying to maximise one's own safety.

Newsflash back at ya - if we continue down that path, motorcycles will be legislated off the roads before too much longer.

[MSTRS]

Just what the world needs , another conspiracy theorist. We never landed on the moon, the CIA blew up the twin towers, it's all a govt plot through govt controlled media. I never realised Rupert Murdoch & Ted Turner were civil servants.:whocares::whocares::whocares:

Actually, he's not far off course...
Who gets quoted in the media when things like this happen?
A senior police officer...yes
A serious crash investigator...yes
An expert engineering consultant...yes
An independent witness (if one exists, of course)...no

And what sort of things do they say?
The green ute was speeding at 154kph.
The bike had to have been speeding, and was doing between 135 and 155kph
The bike was racing the ute
The bike could have stopped in time if he'd been doing under 101kph (very convenient speed, eh?)
The officer had no alcohol in his system
The biker showed a positive return for alcohol, but under the legal limit.

Now, some of the above is conjecture, some of it is no doubt true. The picture such utterings paint is of a naughty ute driver, a naughty biker and a policeman just doing his job. What it amounts to is trial by media, presenting the public with a finding that speed and alcohol were the cause of the fatality, and the cop had little part to play in it.

A conspiracy theorist could be excused for seeing this as just another piece of propaganda by the police, enabled by the media.
A realist would see a guilty person (the cop, backed by the system) doing everything possible to point the guilt elsewhere.

[Katman]

Who gets quoted in the media when things like this happen?


And there's the problem John.

While we continue to refuse to confront the number of avoidable motorcycle accidents the public will continue to be fed evidence of our culpability in those very accidents.

[FJRider]

And there's the problem John.

While we continue to refuse to confront the number of avoidable motorcycle accidents the public will continue to be fed evidence of our culpability in those very accidents.

Perhaps we focus on "avoidable" car accidents ... and get THEIR ACC levies hiked up ... :woohoo:

[StoneY]

Been biting my tongue on this one.

I stated on a Radio Interview 'Paul was likely coming over that crest at around 100k's, and didn't stand a chance to avoid the police car'

I was asked how I would know what speed he was doing.
I have no idea to be honest but fact is, even at the legal speed limit, I doubt he was going to survive.
It matters not how he rode. The limit at that crest is 100, and at 100k's he would still have hit that police car.

I usually try give our hard working rozzers the benefit of the doubt, I always cooperate with them as much as I can, in this case, sorry, cop was in the wrong end of story and no blame can be apportioned to the rider whatsoever no matter what his speed or experience.

Good to see this 'driver' was charged as anyone else doing the same action would have been

[MSTRS]

And there's the problem John.

While we continue to refuse to confront the number of avoidable motorcycle accidents the public will continue to be fed evidence of our culpability in those very accidents.

Don't know how you figure that one out. What we do as regards reducing avoidable crashes has nothing to do with what the cops say in the aftermath of something like this one.

[Katman]

Don't know how you figure that one out. What we do as regards reducing avoidable crashes has nothing to do with what the cops say in the aftermath of something like this one.

They're two separate entities John.

But they're both still happening and we're still losing.

[MSTRS]

Can't argue with that.

[over5tayer]

The officer attempted a u-turn intending to pull over the driver of the speeding utility, but was unable to complete it in one movement.

As he put his car into reverse so he could complete a three-point turn...


cops should be taught to do handbrake u-turns :yes:

reasoning:

it would look damn cool
if he/she pulls it off - it'll most likely put them in a good mood. A happy cop is a reasonable cop :Police:
less time spent performing the maneuver



or.... they could just find a fucking safe place to turn around.

[Elysium]

Perhaps we focus on "avoidable" car accidents ... and get THEIR ACC levies hiked up ... :woohoo:

Yeah right. And next we hike the ACC levies for avoidable rugby player injuries and cyclists injuries too? Unlikely. :innocent:

Sad thing is the vast amount of money that could be saved by ACC if car drivers did avoid avoidable crashes.

[Katman]

Yeah right. And next we hike the ACC levies for avoidable rugby player injuries and cyclists injuries too? Unlikely. :innocent:

Sad thing is the vast amount of money that could be saved by ACC if car drivers did avoid avoidable crashes.

So why the fuck don't we lead the way?

[FJRider]

Yeah right. And next we hike the ACC levies for avoidable rugby player injuries and cyclists injuries too? Unlikely. :innocent:

Sad thing is the vast amount of money that could be saved by ACC if car drivers did avoid avoidable crashes.

At least a "sports levy" for those that engage in injury prone sports ... would help the coffers ...

[MarkH]

I usually try give our hard working rozzers the benefit of the doubt, I always cooperate with them as much as I can, in this case, sorry, cop was in the wrong end of story and no blame can be apportioned to the rider whatsoever no matter what his speed or experience.

I have a slightly different view - the motorcyclist MIGHT have been speeding and he MIGHT be partially to blame. But to me that doesn't matter and any conjecture on that is a waste of time. The fact is that even if he was partially to blame he has already paid too high a price.

So lets move on to the other party involved in this crash - the police officer. To me this is a no brainer, his actions contributed to a crash that resulted in the loss of life to another motorist. I think that it is 100% certain that he is guilty to at least contributing to this crash. I also believe that he should be held to a higher standard as he is a traffic cop and we are told that their priority is getting the road toll down. We should certainly expect that a paid professional in the 'lowering the road toll' business shouldn't be pulling dumb arse manoeuvres that put other motorists lives at risk.

Many New Zealanders could do with more driver training to make them less of a menace on the road. Unfortunately some of those NZers are currently paid to patrol the roads ticketing others.

THAT is why I am very unhappy about the circumstances of the incident that this thread is about.

[Elysium]

So why the fuck don't we lead the way?

Because shit happens Katman, either avoidable or not. You think a minority like bikers are going to change the minds of the politicians if we all a sudden become Fluro wearing, safety, biking angels? They need people like us to blame to justify the changes being made at ACC.

At the end of the day motorcycling is dangerous and people must accept that when they jump on that bike that there is a chance of death or injury, avoidable or not.

we
We? Who's we? Groups like MAG, Bronze? The majority of motorcycle owners? Though it's good we have organizations to keep bikers informed, engage with MPs etc.. I doubt we're ever going to get the majority of motorcycle owners out there organised to make such changes that you want.

Lot of bikers I do talk to haven't even heard of Kiwibiker let alone MAG or Bronze. A lot of motorcyclists out there just don't care and do their own thing regardless of the risks so I honestly can't see how much change we can make if we can't even organise ourselves to the point that change can happen.

At least a "sports levy" for those that engage in injury prone sports ... would help the coffers ...

What? Can you imagine the revolt that would cause? I mean our sacred sport being levied? :crazy:

[Katman]

We? Who's we? Groups like MAG, Bronze? The majority of motorcycle owners? Though it's good we have organizations to keep bikers informed, engage with MPs etc.. I doubt we're ever going to get the majority of motorcycle owners out there organised to make such changes that you want.


Fuck off to the back of the class then.

[Elysium]

Fuck off to the back of the class then.

Whoa, touchy. Looks like that time of the month again. :innocent:

[Smifffy]

I have a slightly different view - the motorcyclist MIGHT have been speeding and he MIGHT be partially to blame. But to me that doesn't matter and any conjecture on that is a waste of time. The fact is that even if he was partially to blame he has already paid too high a price.

So lets move on to the other party involved in this crash - the police officer. To me this is a no brainer, his actions contributed to a crash that resulted in the loss of life to another motorist. I think that it is 100% certain that he is guilty to at least contributing to this crash. I also believe that he should be held to a higher standard as he is a traffic cop and we are told that their priority is getting the road toll down. We should certainly expect that a paid professional in the 'lowering the road toll' business shouldn't be pulling dumb arse manoeuvres that put other motorists lives at risk.

Many New Zealanders could do with more driver training to make them less of a menace on the road. Unfortunately some of those NZers are currently paid to patrol the roads ticketing others.

THAT is why I am very unhappy about the circumstances of the incident that this thread is about.

U-turn boy IS being charged. He has been told by his watchdog that his actions were 'undesirable'. The rest of it is up to the courts, and one hopes that the court will treat this defendant much as it would any other driver with a fairly clean record.

I don't see what more can be done in regards to obtaining justice.

I do agree with you, that Paul paid the ultimate price for any transgressions he may or may not have made regarding his riding on the day.

I do hope that once the judicial process has been followed, the IPCA will comment further on the conduct of the driver of the patrol car.

[scracha]

Just what the world needs , another conspiracy theorist. We never landed on the moon, the CIA blew up the twin towers, it's all a govt plot through govt controlled media. I never realised Rupert Murdoch & Ted Turner were civil servants

See, based on merely stating that I don't believe everything I read in the newspaper, you're conjecturing that I'm a conspiracy theorist in a pathetic attempt to reduce my credibility. Or in laymen terms, you're trying to portray me as a crank to divert attention from your own biased argument. You're not a lawyer perchance?

If you're naive enough to believe that Ted Turner and Rupert Murdoch aren't lobbied by governments to convey a particular political view that best serves the own (normally financial and self serving) interests, then you're more stupid than I thought.


At least a "sports levy" for those that engage in injury prone sports ... would help the coffers ...
There already is in most sports. For example, at football (soccer) I pay "subs". A fair chunk of that goes to the area governing body, which goes to the national governing body, who then pay a fair chunk of that to ACC. Similar things happen at MNZ. How ACC divvy up this charge is a mystery to me as bizarrely the girlfriend's local horsey club don't pay a cent.

Katman....we've had this discussion before. As per blind corners, yes, you should be able to stop in the visible distance ahead. So yes, regardless of the speed, the rider is partially to blame. Yes, there's a thing called personal responsibility. It works both ways though and I can't see why I should be labelled a "crank" for calling into question the so called "facts" that are being fed to the media, nor the tone in which they're reported, nor why only certain selected facts get reported.

And no, the CIA never blew up the twin towers - it was the NeoCons.

[scumdog]

I suggest you re-read, carefully, the last sentence of what you quoted.

Or are you just that ready for an argument that you argue against someone that agrees with you?


Ooops, sorry, you're dead right!:doh:

[FJRider]

There already is in most sports. For example, at football (soccer) I pay "subs". A fair chunk of that goes to the area governing body, which goes to the national governing body, who then pay a fair chunk of that to ACC. Similar things happen at MNZ. How ACC divvy up this charge is a mystery to me as bizarrely the girlfriend's local horsey club don't pay a cent.



That may be the case for organised club sports ... but sking, cycling (road/mountain-bike) for example ... the after hours/hobby sports ... that contribute nothing extra ...

[MSTRS]

... the police officer. ... contributed to a crash ...

Goes much further than that.
The ute driver 'contributed'
The rider 'contributed'
The cop CAUSED

[Max Preload]

The limit at that crest is 100, and at 100k's he would still have hit that police car.Actually, the limit at that or any other crest or corner is the speed at which you can safely stop within the distance of visible road ahead (given it is a road marked in lanes) or 100km/h, whichever is less.

[MSTRS]

Actually, the limit at that or any other crest or corner is the speed at which you can safely stop within the distance of visible road ahead (given it is a road marked in lanes) or 100km/h, whichever is less.

That may be so, but the reality is that almost no-one would slow down prior to such a crest on an open, 100kph road...and I doubt that any motorist has ever been ticketed for it.

[oneofsix]

That may be so, but the reality is that almost no-one would slow down prior to such a crest on an open, 100kph road...and I doubt that any motorist has ever been ticketed for it.

road is clear 100k ok ... oh fuck whats that cop car doing????????
Seriously though ... disbelieve and surprise or shock is not calculated into the reaction time that's why its illegal to pull a u-turn where there is less than the required visibility.

[Max Preload]

That may be so, but the reality is that almost no-one would slow down prior to such a crest on an open, 100kph road...and I doubt that any motorist has ever been ticketed for it.I'm simply pointing out that it's one of those catch-all bits of legislation for when they can't get you on anything else, like driving in a manner likely to cause annoyance to any person: $600 infringement fee.

[MSTRS]

It is a fair piece of legislation, being able to stop in the clear distance ahead (2 laned road) or half the clear distance ahead (single lane road), it's purpose being safety.
But it is impossible to police, being so open to interpretation, speed-wise. An old banger, with rod-activated drum brakes might need to be travelling at 30kph to manage compliance, whilst a modern, 4 disc, power assisted jobby could do 95kph.
Fact is that every time a motorist approaches a blind section of road such as this sort of crest, they should slow down as a precaution. But few do.

[Elysium]

Fact is that every time a motorist approaches a blind section of road such as this sort of crest, they should slow down as a precaution. But few do.
I do that when I ride on roads I've never been on before. Proberly saved my life 2 years ago when I was riding near Invercargill and come upon such a crest that was shadowed with trees on each side of the road.

The sign said 90 and I dropped to 70 and about 2 seconds later as I hit the top of the crest my back wheel violently swung left and right. I admit I panicked a bit but just kept aiming my front straight, didn't touch the clutch and eased off the throttle. Sure enough I hit normal road again. If it went bad then I would gone over the sheer cliff next to the road.

Reason wheel gave out was idiot contractors having patched the road in places and didn't sweep any of the loose gravel up along with no signage. One of those patches was right on top off the crest where you could not see it until you hit it. So poor was the patching that on comming cars on the other side of road had lost control when they hit the pachting too judging by the amount of long skid marks.

[MSTRS]

I do that when I ride on roads I've never been on before. Proberly saved my life 2 years ago when I was riding near Invercargill and come upon such a crest that was shadowed with trees on each side of the road.

The sign said 90 and I dropped to 70 and about 2 seconds later as I hit the top of the crest my back wheel violently swung left and right. I admit I panicked a bit but just kept aiming my front straight, didn't touch the clutch and eased off the throttle. Sure enough I hit normal road again. If it went bad then I would gone over the sheer cliff next to the road.

Reason wheel gave out was idiot contractors having patched the road in places and didn't sweep any of the loose gravel up along with no signage. One of those patches was right on top off the crest where you could not see it until you hit it. So poor was the patching that on comming cars on the other side of road had lost control when they hit the pachting too judging by the amount of long skid marks.

One guess as to who was responsible for the situation you (and others) found yourselves in.
Yes, yes, Steve - I know...

[Elysium]

One guess as to who was responsible for the situation you (and others) found yourselves in.
Yes, yes, Steve - I know...

Oh yes indeed, something about expecting the unexpected. So really I should have known there was patching in the area.:eek:

[MSTRS]

Here's another brilliant example of propaganda reporting...
In today's local paper, there is a front page report of a crash on a suburban street on Saturday night. The final paragraph states "SCU officers are investigating the cause of the accident to determine if alcohol and speed were factors."
Why can't they just say "SCU officers are investigating the cause of the accident"?

The aftermath makes it obvious that speed was involved (the moving car, a Ford of some description, hit a parked Nissan Safari, and shunted it 20m along the road, over the kerbing and into someone's front wall). The driver was probably pissed, but who knows...don't have to be pissed to drive at speed in a residential area at 11.40pm...

[Bald Eagle]

Here's another brilliant example of propaganda reporting...
In today's local paper, there is a front page report of a crash on a suburban street on Saturday night. The final paragraph states "SCU officers are investigating the cause of the accident to determine if alcohol and speed were factors."
Why can't they just say "SCU officers are investigating the cause of the accident"?

The aftermath makes it obvious that speed was involved (the moving car, a Ford of some description, hit a parked Nissan Safari, and shunted it 20m along the road, over the kerbing and into someone's front wall). The driver was probably pissed, but who knows...don't have to be pissed to drive at speed in a residential area at 11.40pm...

surely the correct quote should be "SCU officers are investigating to determine the cause of the accident" - with a completely open mind of course.

[Max Preload]

The final paragraph states "SCU officers are investigating the cause of the accident to determine if alcohol and speed were factors."
Why can't they just say "SCU officers are investigating the cause of the accident"?Would that sell more or less papers?

[MSTRS]

Anyone would think that all accidents (and I use that term loosely) are caused by speed and/or alcohol. I mean, that is what they are looking for when they investigate. I know this, because the paper tells me.

[Elysium]

Would that sell more or less papers?

The very words that every news paper editor utters at each meeting with staff.

[trustme]

Anyone would think that all accidents (and I use that term loosely) are caused by speed and/or alcohol. I mean, that is what they are looking for when they investigate. I know this, because the paper tells me.

The bugger of it is that statistics suggest that speed & alcohol are a major factor in serious accidents, not all, but a high percentage. A concerted campaign has been launched to get the message across to joe public. The obvious way to do this is via the media, smoke signals & carrier pigeons don't cut it any more.
Some would ague that this is manipulation of the masses, & the press are the puppets of the govt.
Would we rather go back to the good old days of 30yrs ago when getting caught DIC was almost a right of passage.

[Bald Eagle]

It would be nice if we could return to a time when there was some jounalistic integrity and actual reporting not just the cut and paste sound bites from the multi national media owners..

[phill-k]

Hardly a funny incident if you ask me. The only thing I'm laughing about is that most of you are so apathetic about anything that doesn't affect you directly. You're quite content to believe the lies and statistics the government controlled media in this country feeds you.
Of course these nasty horrible bikers are all speedign and riding like arseholes.
Of courise it was their fault.
Of course it couldn't be the nice policeman's fault.
Speed kills, if you speed you deserve to die.
Happy happy Kiwi's, New Zealand is nirvana and the rest of the world is wrong.

Newsflash for you, Katman and your ilk :- they'll come for you soon enough but nobody else will be around to help you.

I don't think anyone is laughing at what happened to the rider, but at your diatribe that is what is laughable - replace the U turning vehicle with a flock of bulls who have got through a gate, after a naughty boy had been into the roadside paddock picking mushrooms and forgot to shut the gate - there was a hazard on the road and he unfortunately didn't stop in time to avoid said hazard. As part of the assessment made to gauge his speed a number of things will be taken into account, road conditions, vehicle conditions and the riders ability and his mental and physical state. At 100km per hour he would have needed 92mtrs to come to a complete stop, the evidence at the scene shows clearly the impact was at a speed that is inconsistent with 100km an hour, thus some other factor needs to be considered, higher speed, reaction time inhibited, mechanical failure, it will have all been considered and examined.
Some of the on eyed statements on here are laughable, lets all blame the other person, in this case a police officer, at the end of the day is the police officer really guilty of anything - the road code clearly requires the operator of a vehicle to travel at a speed that will allow the vehicle to stop in the clear road ahead- I say again if there were cattle or some such on the road what of it then.

[trustme]

It would be nice if we could return to a time when there was some jounalistic integrity and actual reporting not just the cut and paste sound bites from the multi national media owners..

The press has never been independant or unbiased. We were just too naive to realise it. I do regret that there appears to be little true investigative journalism, we now deal in sound bites we can't be bothered with detail. Correspondence has been reduced to that lowest common denominator , the txt .

[scumdog]

The press has never been independant or unbiased. We were just too naive to realise it. I do regret that there appears to be little true investigative journalism, we now deal in sound bites we can't be bothered with detail. Correspondence has been reduced to that lowest common denominator , the txt .

Don't worry, this boy has no illusions as the the truth, accuracy and integrity of the media.

Noddy in Toytown is a more accurate depiction of real life compared to the medias effort.

[Conquiztador]

Also interesting that, as quoted in the story;

"An expert engineering consultant estimated Mr Brown was travelling between 135 and 155kmh before he hit his brakes."

The upper limit of this speed is very close to the speed check of 154 km/h that was the cause of this U turn.

Could it be possible both vehicles were racing?

Could it be possible that it was the same vehicle? Perhaps there never was a ute and it is just a smokescreen to "justify" the U-turn?

[MSTRS]

I don't think anyone is laughing at what happened to the rider, but at your diatribe that is what is laughable - replace the U turning vehicle with a flock of bulls who have got through a gate, after a naughty boy had been into the roadside paddock picking mushrooms and forgot to shut the gate - there was a hazard on the road and he unfortunately didn't stop in time to avoid said hazard. As part of the assessment made to gauge his speed a number of things will be taken into account, road conditions, vehicle conditions and the riders ability and his mental and physical state. At 100km per hour he would have needed 92mtrs to come to a complete stop, the evidence at the scene shows clearly the impact was at a speed that is inconsistent with 100km an hour, thus some other factor needs to be considered, higher speed, reaction time inhibited, mechanical failure, it will have all been considered and examined.
Some of the on eyed statements on here are laughable, lets all blame the other person, in this case a police officer, at the end of the day is the police officer really guilty of anything - the road code clearly requires the operator of a vehicle to travel at a speed that will allow the vehicle to stop in the clear road ahead- I say again if there were cattle or some such on the road what of it then.
You are right, in so far as the onus is on a motorist to be able to stop in half the clear road etc, but...
If the hazard he couldn't avoid was someone else's fault, wandering stock or something fell off another vehicle or whatever, efforts would be made to id the owner and they will be charged for their negligence.

Could it be possible that it was the same vehicle? Perhaps there never was a earlier bike and it is just a smokescreen to "justify" the U-turn?

Where was another bike mentioned? It was a green ute.

[Conquiztador]

Some of the on eyed statements on here are laughable, lets all blame the other person, in this case a police officer, at the end of the day is the police officer really guilty of anything - the road code clearly requires the operator of a vehicle to travel at a speed that will allow the vehicle to stop in the clear road ahead- I say again if there were cattle or some such on the road what of it then.

So if he had not died and there would have been an investigation that concluded that:
1. The police was doing a U-turn at the place under the crest.
2. The bike crashed in to the police car that made a U-turn while riding at 100k/h
Are you saying that the biker would have been charged as he was at fault as he did not adjust his speed accordingly?

[Conquiztador]

Where was another bike mentioned? It was a green ute.

Sorry, my mistake. I knew that...

[Pixie]

Also interesting that, as quoted in the story;

"An expert engineering consultant estimated Mr Brown was travelling between 135 and 155kmh before he hit his brakes."

The upper limit of this speed is very close to the speed check of 154 km/h that was the cause of this U turn.

Could it be possible both vehicles were racing?

Well that's a vindication of the 3 point turn.

It's like saying the guy in Taupo who shot the teacher brushing her teeth was vindicated because she was doing duck impressions

[MSTRS]

Well that's a vindication of the 3 point turn.

It's like saying the guy in Taupo who shot the teacher brushing her teeth was vindicated because she was doing duck impressions

What do you expect. He's a card-carrying member of the thick blue line and he will do/say anything to divert attention from their fuckups.

[Pixie]

At 100km per hour he would have needed 92mtrs to come to a complete stop, the evidence at the scene shows clearly the impact was at a speed that is inconsistent with 100km an hour, thus some other factor needs to be considered, higher speed, reaction time inhibited, mechanical failure, it will have all been considered and examined.
Where do you get 92m from.Is it,as I expect,out of some outdated road code.Base on the braking abilities of a Ford Anglia? Top Gear showed that the braking stats in the British road code were just that and the capabilities of a modern car showed them to be laughable.
And show me where the experimental evidence showing how much damage a motorcycle does to a car at varying speeds and varying angle of impact,including being on it's side.Otherwise any estimate of speed is purely wild conjecture.

As for the SCU.On the TV program they used to air following the SCU on it's daily business,I saw an SCU investigator look for deformation in the brake light filaments in a large car that hit a cyclist - as if the cyclist would decelerate a 2 tonne car at sufficient G to cause any deformation.Also,the SCU investigator who raised a car on a hoist,placed it in gear and turned the rear wheels by hand.After doing this he announced,with a confused look on his face that there was something wrong with the transmission,as he should not be able to turn the wheel - someone needed to explain how a differential works to that "expert"

[MSTRS]

At 100km per hour he would have needed 92mtrs to come to a complete stop, the evidence at the scene shows clearly the impact was at a speed that is inconsistent with 100km an hour...

Stopping distance is subject to too many variables to be precise (ie a particular distance cannot cover all circumstances).
Add in a downhill as well...

[Spearfish]

at least 10 characters.

[MSTRS]

The press has never been independant or unbiased. We were just too naive to realise it. I do regret that there appears to be little true investigative journalism, we now deal in sound bites we can't be bothered with detail. Correspondence has been reduced to that lowest common denominator , the txt .

There was plenty of detail in the report I mentioned. It was just the hook that the SCU was investigating for speed/alcohol - as though nothing else ever causes prangs.
To be fair, in this particular case I doubt that anything but speed/alcohol were causative, but the paper could have said "It is believed that speed and alcohol were major factors, but the SCU is investigating to rule out any other cause."

[MSTRS]

This event has really got under your skin and found a nerve to tickle.


You got me!
Yes, you're right. I get upset when bikers die because someone else did something stupid.
Perhaps the many instances of cops doing U-turns causing death/injury to others, esp bikers, are given far more exposure that the countless number of same by 'ordinary' motorists. Somehow, it seems worse that professionals charged with keeping our roads safe (whatever that is) are the cause of any mayhem at all. Perhaps it is the fact that they are quick to accuse/charge ordinary motorists with careless/dangerous causing injury/death, but there is no such speed to do the same with their own. The reasons for this may be good, but it still rankles. And when such as RM point the blazing finger of guilt anywhere but at his colleague, that really annoys me. He wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't a cop that pulled that manoeuvre.

[scumdog]

Well that's a vindication of the 3 point turn.

It's like saying the guy in Taupo who shot the teacher brushing her teeth was vindicated because she was doing duck impressions

It was a deer impression.

Get it right.

(Or are you part of the media, the part that reports possibilities, 'almost'-facts, suppositions and quotes from unnamed sources?)

[StoneY]

I'm confident that Justice Goddard has appraised the situation fairly and appropriately.

There will always be those in the force that believe that every officer is beyond reproach.

Like the fascist bully boy in the wild west that reckons 8 people are all lying.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4876448/Police-sergeant-accused-of-assault-not-guilty
Hmmmmm
This is unreal..... some of the accusers were fellow Police officers......who testified against this thug.

Bodes poorley for any hope of a reasonable and unbiased trial in the case we discuss in this thread............

[phill-k]

Can we get something straight here, the road code and thus the laws under which you operate a vehicle on a public road state categorically that you must operate your vehicle in a safe manner, it further requires you to travel at a speed where you are able to stop your vehicle within the clear road space ahead.

The police officer made an error of judgement in commencing a "u" turn for what ever reason at the location where he did by virtue of the fact he crossed the yellow line and he will pay dearly for this more so than any ordinary user of public roads. However that was only one of the contributing factors to this sad loss of a life.

There are many other factors involved here, the rider himself contributed to the accident, in that he clearly did not stop in time to avoid the patrol car, the crash analysis experts will be able to determine with a fair measure of accuracy as to most of the circumstances surrounding the crash, other than perhaps what the riders intentions were when he first observed the obstacle.
As the rider was well skilled it is possible that he may have chosen to undertake an evasive manoeuvre rather than heavy braking and the movement of the patrol car actually blocked the escape route planned, this could be partially determined by where the first signs of braking from the bike occurred, where the patrol car was located and at what stage of his manoeuvre he was at for example was the vehicle still going forwards, in reverse or in fact was the manoeuvre almost complete.
If we are not going to have some faith in the integrity and ability of those tasked with establishing as much of the facts as we can, which can after all be proved through engineering and science where does this leave us as a biking community.

We all see and argue that Speed in its self does not kill, but unfortunately errors at speed have a much greater consequence.

The family of the biker will live with this for the rest of there lives, so to will the traffic officer and his family, who in his service to the community has placed himself in an unenviable position.

I would like to roundly condemn the officer for making what was a life taking decision but then that would be to say that decisions I make are all above reproach and that is not so. The courts however will I'm sure judge the actions and extract the pound of flesh all seem so keen to have.

[98tls]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4876448/Police-sergeant-accused-of-assault-not-guilty
Hmmmmm
This is unreal..... some of the accusers were fellow Police officers......who testified against this thug.

Bodes poorley for any hope of a reasonable and unbiased trial in the case we discuss in this thread............

Once upon a time a hiding in the cells was a lesson learned and off you went knowing that whatever dumb shit got you locked up in the first place wasnt a good idea so you didnt repeat it.Not these days eh its all:crybaby::crybaby::crybaby:fucking pathetic.No doubt they deserved a hiding and no doubt if the coppers found guilty some do gooder social worker will step in to make sure they get the appropriate counselling and handout from the taxpayer.:facepalm:

[denill]

Once upon a time a hiding in the cells was a lesson learned and off you went knowing that whatever dumb shit got you locked up in the first place wasnt a good idea so you didnt repeat it.Not these days eh its all:crybaby::crybaby::crybaby:fucking pathetic.No doubt they deserved a hiding and no doubt if the coppers found guilty some do gooder social worker will step in to make sure they get the appropriate counselling and handout from the taxpayer.:facepalm:

Gotta agree with that and well said. :yes: :yes:

[Max Preload]

...the rider himself contributed to the accident, in that he clearly did not stop in time to avoid the patrol carYou are assuming something that you are unable to substantiate. There is no way you can say that the rider was unable to stop within the distance of clear road ahead and that the cop didn't turn directly into that clear distance, having not actually seen the bike.

[trustme]

You are assuming something that you are unable to substantiate. There is no way you can say that the rider was unable to stop within the distance of clear road ahead and that the cop didn't turn directly into that clear distance, having not actually seen the bike.

The cop did commence his turn on a clear section of road without the rider in view. Problem was the rider was on the other side of the brow of a hump & was not visible. The cop was doing the u turn far to close to the crest of the rise. Under normal circumstances he would probably have got away with it, any vehicle approaching at speed and it was tragically a whole different story.
There is no assumption that that the rider was unable to stop in the clear road ahead. If he could have he most surely would have.

[red mermaid]

Probably about as much chance as there is of having a reasonable and unbiased debate on the forum in regard to this thread.



http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4876448/Police-sergeant-accused-of-assault-not-guilty
Hmmmmm
This is unreal..... some of the accusers were fellow Police officers......who testified against this thug.

Bodes poorley for any hope of a reasonable and unbiased trial in the case we discuss in this thread............

[98tls]

Probably about as much chance as there is of having a reasonable and unbiased debate on the forum in regard to this thread.

Here we go:facepalm: "reasonable and unbiased":facepalm:its that kind of shite thats seen the ruin of the real world,surely one can speak the truth on the interweb without some do-gooder moaning.:violin:

[scracha]

so to will the traffic officer and his family, who in his service to the community has placed himself in an unenviable position.

So do drink drivers....should they get off scott free because they'll have to live with it for the rest of their lives? oh boo hoo.






replace the U turning vehicle with a flock of bulls who have got through a gate, after a naughty boy had been into the roadside paddock picking mushrooms and really guilty of anything - the road code clearly requires the operator of a vehicle to travel at a speed that will allow the vehicle to stop in the clear road ahead- I say again if there were cattle or some such on the road what of it then.
Ok, so lets say pulling a U-turn before a blind crest isn't criminally negligent. By your logic, I'd be able to pull a U in my car or motorcycle and if someone smacked into me it'd be 100% their fault. Get real


I don't think anyone is laughing at what happened to the rider, but at your diatribe that is what is laughable -




the crash analysis experts will be able to determine with a fair measure of accuracy as to most of the circumstances surrounding the crash, other than perhaps what the riders intentions were when he first observed the obstacle.

You don't need a degree in science or engineering to know that's utter crock. Thus my diatribe :facepalm:.

[Max Preload]

The cop did commence his turn on a clear section of road without the rider in view. Problem was the rider was on the other side of the brow of a hump & was not visible.You don't know any of that.


The cop was doing the u turn far to close to the crest of the rise. Under normal circumstances he would probably have got away with it, any vehicle approaching at speed and it was tragically a whole different story.If any vehicle was approaching it would be at speed or else it wouldn't be approaching - it'd be stationary.


There is no assumption that that the rider was unable to stop in the clear road ahead. If he could have he most surely would have.You've fallen into exactly the same assumption trap as phil.k. It is an assumption to say that the rider was not travelling at a speed at which he was able to stop within the distance of clear road ahead. Also being on a bike he not only had greater visibility over the crest due to his height above the road, his helmet and even shoulders and abdomen being above the crest don't present a particularly large visual indicator of the approaching motorcycle for the driver to observe. It could well be the cop turned in front of him while in view of the rider without even seeing him.

[terbang]

It could well be the cop turned in front of him while in view of the rider without even seeing him.

Of course this has never happened before in the case of Car Vs Bike..! How could a bike be invisible to a driver? Especially a professional driver. Right?

Oh fuck it, lets just blame the rider, they are always speeding and taking risks anyway. Its just easier that way.

[riffer]

It all seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Road Code says you must be able to stop within the clear distance ahead of you.

The Blind crest made assessment of the clear distance ahead difficult, thus rider assumed clear distance.

Police officer U-turned too close to the blind crest, reducing the clear distance available.

Due to the reduced clear distance and the (alleged) speed of the rider the opportunity to evade the incident was diminished.

My findings are thus:

1. Police officer acted with dangerous disregard to other road users.
2. Rider (alleged) speed didn't allow enough space to stop in time.

Therefore, Officer guilty of dangerous driving causing death. But rider didn't do himself any favours at all.

There's no point bleating about people doing stupid things in front of you. This will happen constantly to a motorcyclist. A superior rider will take many of these things into account - sometimes you can't do anything about it, other times you can.

In this case I believe the rider exacerbated the problem the Officer created.

[trustme]

It all seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Road Code says you must be able to stop within the clear distance ahead of you.

The Blind crest made assessment of the clear distance ahead difficult, thus rider assumed clear distance.

Police officer U-turned too close to the blind crest, reducing the clear distance available.

Due to the reduced clear distance and the (alleged) speed of the rider the opportunity to evade the incident was diminished.

My findings are thus:

1. Police officer acted with dangerous disregard to other road users.
2. Rider (alleged) speed didn't allow enough space to stop in time.

Therefore, Officer guilty of dangerous driving causing death. But rider didn't do himself any favours at all.

There's no point bleating about people doing stupid things in front of you. This will happen constantly to a motorcyclist. A superior rider will take many of these things into account - sometimes you can't do anything about it, other times you can.

In this case I believe the rider exacerbated the problem the Officer created.

Works for me

[oneofsix]

Works for me

me too :yes: