Police killing us again!

[Kiwi675]

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/7077624/fatal-collision-between-motorcycle-and-police-car/

[scott411]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/122143-RIp-Paul-Brown

[MSTRS]

"The officer has activated his blue and red emergency lights and sirens and begun a turning manoeuvre to follow the offending vehicle as a motorcycle came over the brow of a hill and collided with the turning patrol car."
The cardinal sin (yet again) of doing shit in a blind spot...
How many times/investigations must there be, before a clear instruction is given..."Do not stop or turn without several hundred metres clear road in both directions"

[CookMySock]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Bulldog]

His expert Police training taught him well not to turn across the road right after a crest :/ numbnuts. He will have to live with his actions for the rest of his life.

[MSTRS]

Actually, this might be a good time to suggest that cops take the Hippocratic oath..."First, DO NO HARM"

[Fatjim]

Of course there's two sides to the story. Looking forward to Scummy's take on this.

[Grahameeboy]

Maybe we should let the case be investigated first...how far was the brow of the hill from the accident? We don't know yet.
Police are human too and whilst we expect they have a higher duty of care...they are not hypocrites if they make a mistake which car drivers and bikers do all the time so I guess we are all hypocrites at some stage.

[Slyer]

Speed kills...

[Grahameeboy]

So do cigarettes..............

[CookMySock]

It is interesting to note the rider had no opportunity to take evasive action, yet he will be among the most qualified among us to do so.

How difficult then it must be to swerve a fast-moving bike around an incident on the road.

Steve

[Usarka]

Maybe we should let the case be investigated first...how far was the brow of the hill from the accident? We don't know yet.
Police are human too and whilst we expect they have a higher duty of care...they are not hypocrites if they make a mistake which car drivers and bikers do all the time so I guess we are all hypocrites at some stage.

The quote from the road policing manager is probably a good place to start.....

"The officer has activated his blue and red emergency lights and sirens and begun a turning manoeuvre to follow the offending vehicle as a motorcycle came over the brow of a hill and collided with the turning patrol car."

[steve_t]

I guess the LEO got all excited about the speeding cage and didn't think about where he was in relation to the brow. How many accidents will it take before the po-po get clued up on (or banned from) doing u-turns. At least the reporting didn't insinuate that the motorcyclist was possibly in the wrong this time

[Grahameeboy]

The quote from the road policing manager is probably a good place to start.....

"The officer has activated his blue and red emergency lights and sirens and begun a turning manoeuvre to follow the offending vehicle as a motorcycle came over the brow of a hill and collided with the turning patrol car."

True but detail is required...

[Katman]

True but detail is required...

That's not the Kiwibiker way.

[Rev DJ]

This is tragic news - tragic because a talented rider has been killed and tragic too because it was TOTALLY avoidable!!

My heart goes out to the rider's family, colleagues and friends... my feeling towards the officer are mixed... angry, yet knowing he/she will have to deal with this just as anyone else who has erred.

Sad news... DJ

[Fluffy Cat]

At least the cop did not blame the biker this time.....as in he was speeding. Or as others will I am sure point out he was travelling to fast to stop in the required distance.....
Poor bugger.
For what?, the issuing of a speeding ticket?.
I do not give a shit how the "poor cop will feel for the rest of their lives", I give a shit for how the person removed from existence, can't give a shit ever again over a motoring infringement !!!.
Totally pointless, nobody has learned from the last time.

[duckonin]

Can never be stoped ! the thrill of the chase kicks in, then they all fail to think..

[Nonbeliever]

I couldnt give a shit if the cop ends up in the loony bin having nightmares about this.........

but I doubt he will........

more likely he'll get a golden handshake and retire before he's sacked, or he'll get some cushy desk job on the gold coast.
asshole!!!!

[Ronin]

It is interesting to note the rider had no opportunity to take evasive action, yet he will be among the most qualified among us to do so.

How difficult then it must be to swerve a fast-moving bike around an incident on the road.

Steve

That's an interesting picture you paint from what little info we have. For instance, you have no idea what evasive action the rider was able to take to try and avoid the car.

Be angry at the cop and the circumstances. Be angry at an avoidable tragedy but how about we not make things up?

Just an idea.

[Ixion]

The Harold, quoting Mr Tooman (whose negative and contemptuous opinions of motorcyclists are well known, and have been the subject of official complaint by BRONZ)




Road Policing is all about preventing road trauma, unfortunately the nature of our business is such that from time to time tragedies do occur. It is now a priority for us to ensure a thorough investigation is completed not only for the deceased's family's peace of mind but for that of the public and our own staff.

What a contemptable and weaselly evasion of responsibility . Amounts to a "tough shit, we will do whatever we want"

[Maki]

Clearly safety has taken a back seat to being able to issue a speeding ticket. When cops realize that making the roads safer is priority number one and generating revenue is priority number two the roads will be a lot safer. RIP.

[Hypobru]

I wonder how many times this very thing has happened when the vehicle who hits the cop is a car & no-one gets hurt. The main problem is, contrary to public image, cops are human & therefore sometimes allow adrenaline & excitement to take control of their senses. Many of us bike riders would experience the same instant thrill of a 'chase' when some car driver decides to try to stay in front of you when you come up on them on a fast windy road. Over the years I've meet loads of cops when they're off duty, most of them are good enough people, but without doubt there have been quite a few who have exhibited personal attributes that would be more suited to one of the less law abiding gangs if not the unemployment queues. Maybe all cops in the traffic division should have to ride two wheels (a push bike would be my suggestion, don't want them on motorbikes), for the first ten years of the job so they learn a little about self-preservation before they're allowed into a V8 Holden.
.

[Beemer]

I wonder how many times this very thing has happened when the vehicle who hits the cop is a car & no-one gets hurt...

There was one they quoted in the article - think it was the young guy who the cops then turned around and charged and he had a hell of a fight on his hands to prove he was not at fault.

Another sad case, regardless of the circumstances. If the cop hadn't been doing the U-turn, it's unlikely this rider would have died. It will be interesting when the full facts come out to see exactly how far from the brow of the hill the cop was and how fast the rider was estimated to have been going and all the other factors that need to be taken into account here before blame can be apportioned.

[Grahameeboy]

Thats why we are not called Kiwithinker...

[Grahameeboy]

The Harold, quoting Mr Tooman (whose negative and contemptuous opinions of motorcyclists are well known, and have been the subject of official complaint by BRONZ)



What a contemptable and weaselly evasion of responsibility . Amounts to a "tough shit, we will do whatever we want"

That's BS Ixion.....

[dipshit]

The cardinal sin (yet again) of doing shit in a blind spot...
How many times/investigations must there be, before a clear instruction is given..."Do not stop or turn without several hundred metres clear road in both directions"

No shit. What makes you think it was "accidental"..???

[Hypobru]

I've had some dealings with Leo Tooman & one of his senior traffic men. I sometimes motorbike marshall cycle racing events & one day we had 130 riders coming from mangakino to Hamilton, Leo had sent an officer to report on the event because he was unhappy with the risks invovled. I came down a hill just in front of the lead car & the pack of racers (who can travel pretty quick downhill), the cop car was stopped in the middle of the high level bridge, red & blues flashing, & he was out of the car looking over the side of the bloody bridge. No accident occured that time, but we had wet roads, 20mm tyre contact patches and an open road. Mmmmm, what was that in the news a couple of years ago about the police entry examinations being too difficult, maybe they're just asking the wrong questions.

[rastuscat]

Wait until the facts come out.

[Crazy Steve]

This is a very sad story, but the truth about police chases is that sometimes they do try to knock you off....Sometimes on purpose and sometimes by mistake.

Crazy Steve.

[Swoop]

This picture is from the Herald site.

[Stirts]

The main problem is, contrary to public image, cops are human & therefore sometimes allow adrenaline & excitement to take control of their senses.
Allowing adrenaline & excitement to take control of their senses is dangerous. These people are "trained professionals" (I use that term EXTREMELY LOOSELY), PAID to take control of situations in a cool, calm and SAFE manner - in their line of work - out of control adrenaline & excitement is fatal!

My sympathies are with his family and friends!

[Fluffy Cat]

Better pic...204967

[Ixion]

This is a very sad story, but the truth about police chases is that sometimes they do try to knock you off....Sometimes on purpose and sometimes by mistake.

Crazy Steve.

True, but in this case it wasn't the bike the cop was trying to chase. So, no intent, just a 'a speeding ticket justifies anything no matter how dangerous' attitude.

I have to say, that from my own personal experience, I can recall two recent similar events, where it was only down to my evasive action that there wasn't another statistic. I regard a police car as the most dangerous vehicle on the road, they are likely to do absolutely anything, no matter how blatently stupid or dangerous , at any moment. They seem to have an attitude that putting on their lights excuses them from anything and everything . In fact was there not a recent posting where a cop excused his dangerous driving on the basis 'can't you see we have someone in the back'. No lights or siren even

[Ixion]

Better pic...204967

WTF ?? How did the cop car end up back on the opposite side of the road? Was he trying to do a runner? . And, I see yellow lines. So did the cop cross the yellow as well?

[Crazy Steve]

Better pic...204967

I feel sick now ive seen that photo, better go have a lay down.

Thats way to close to the brow of that hill ! !

Crazy Steve.

[Fluffy Cat]

I think the bike has shunted the car around. But its not a good spot....

[Ronin]

WTF ?? How did the cop car end up back on the opposite side of the road? Was he trying to do a runner? . And, I see yellow lines. So did the cop cross the yellow as well?

Looks like the cop has been heading up the hill and turned just before the brow, the the bike has come over and hit him.

[Kiwi675]

Cops been going up the hill and the car doing 154 is going the other way, he's done a u-turn at the brow of the hill and the bike has come over the hill, tried to avoid the cop by going to the other side of the road but no time and has collected the back corner of the car and spun it around to its resting position.

[The Pastor]

all professional drivers should have a higher level of driving skill, and should be fined / punished accordingly.

[steve_t]

What a crazy place to do a u-turn!!

[MSTRS]

Cops been going up the hill and the car doing 154 is going the other way, he's done a u-turn at the brow of the hill and the bike has come over the hill, tried to avoid the cop by going to the other side of the road but no time and has collected the back corner of the car and spun it around to its resting position.

That sounds right. I've seen the very same behaviour by a cop on double yellows on SH5.

[Wannabiker]

given the narrowness of the road I suggest he would have needed to do a 3 point turn......... fuck all room to take any evasive action (for either the rider or the cop). I doubt my commodore could do a "U" turn in that width of road without using the handbrake and traction control off.

[cold comfort]

Tragic. Condolences to the family as always. Another pointless death due to the fixation our authorities have with speed. An excellent newspaper article recently rubbished the concept of speed alone being the cause of crashes citing overseas statistics of REDUCING road tolls with raised speed limits, but improved roads and driver training. "never let the facts get in the way of good story" seems to be the motto here. I recently left the "Off the Rails" heading to Clarks Junc to find a HP setting up to catch bikers coming DOWNHILL at the end of a straight ! What is that about? Not bloody safety for sure.

[Big Dave]

What a tragedy. Condolences to all.

The pictures are indeed disturbing. The sign indicates there is an intersection just ahead too.

[MSTRS]

No matter the reason, a cop would rape anyone else doing some sort of turn there.
Whilst some laws do not apply to cops, the law of simple commonsense does not play favourites...

[pete376403]

. At least the reporting didn't insinuate that the motorcyclist was possibly in the wrong this time
Give them time...

"failing to be able to stop in half the clear distance" will probably be trotted out.

[cromagnon]

No matter the reason, a cop would rape anyone else doing some sort of turn there.
Whilst some laws do not apply to cops, the law of simple commonsense does not play favourites...

And unfortunately to people near them too

[MaxB]

Now I have seen the photo, FFS what was that cop thinking?

I note the 150km/h car didn't hit anything. He probably got home in one piece. Since when has a ticket been worth more than a biker's life?

[Foxzee]

This is not an accident...it's fucking manslaughter!!!!

[MisterD]

This is not an accident...it's fucking manslaughter!!!!

It's certainly hard to see from the photographic evidence how it can possibly be less than "dangerous use of a motor vehicle causing death".

[Crasherfromwayback]

RIP the rider, and condolences to all of his family and friends.

BAD place to be turning a car round.

[Zamiam]

My condolences also to the family and friends of the biker who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

When are we going to stand up and say enough! Now while I do not pretend to have the solution I am sick of hearing of innocent parties being taken out by people who the Police are chasing when “the pursuit was called off 2 seconds”. Its time the Police started to front up to the fact they are Human and generally red blooded Males and make WRONG CALLS.

Personally I’ve had two close calls with stupid Police officers

1 – Straight piece of road south of Whangarei – on cruise at 100km/hr. Police car coming the other way suddenly activates his lights pulls to the left and does a U turn. I hit the brakes, the ABS cuts in, he stops straddling the centreline, I stop 15 feet or so from T boning him. He pisses off down the road and I pass him with a car pulled up. Missus wouldn’t let me stop to rip him a new arsehole.

2 – Passenger in car in New Plymouth waiting with a green light to turn right at traffic lights. Driver hesitates for a second (no reason) and a Police dog handler ute heading in the same direction BUT on the wrong side of the road misses us by less than a foot. At a guess he was doing 80-90km/hr NO SIREN, NO LIGHTS.

Now I’m not perfect BUT I don’t have a career of persecuting other drivers for their mistakes, often harmless.

[dipshit]

Another good reason to use radar detectors.

[SMOKEU]

When are we going to stand up and say enough! Now while I do not pretend to have the solution I am sick of hearing of innocent parties being taken out by people who the Police are chasing when “the pursuit was called off 2 seconds”.



How is it the cops fault if someone else crashes into an innocent member of the public?

[Ixion]

Just had Radio NZ looking for an interview. Their attitude was basically that the police guidelines need reviewing.

[SPman]

That photo tells it all really - you'd have to be contemptuously stupid to attempt a U turn there!

What a contemptable and weaselly evasion of responsibility . Amounts to a "tough shit, we will do whatever we want" My thoughts exactly, Les.

[miloking]

How is it the cops fault if someone else crashes into an innocent member of the public?

IT IS! because the cop could clearly see that the chase has been going on for while and offender is just not goint to pull over...so now its just a waiting game until the "retard" hits someone (for price of speeding ticket). If they call off the chase like they are directed nobody gets hurt...but sadly cops dont give a flying fuck about other people on the roads when chasing the $$$$

Acutaly i dont even condone chasing criminals (not just speeders), why should I or my family die on the next corner because someone escaped prison or something and cops want to have some fun on high speed chase!

Life is too fucking short to be killed for nothing (especialy by NZ police)!

[MSTRS]

Just had Radio NZ looking for an interview. Their attitude was basically that the police guidelines need reviewing.

I know...let's have a royal commission of enquiry. That's what we need. To tell these idiots what we have told them already. But since we did it for free, I guess it didn't have the same ring of importance.

[Ixion]

I don't altogether agree witha 'police should never pursue' approach <rb/>
but - I wonder, if the cop clocked a car at 154 kph, just how fast did he imagine he was going to have to go himself, to catch said speeding car, allowing for the time he would have lost doing his three point turn?

Anyone want to work it out or estimate it? To catch a car travelling at 154kph, from a standing start, giving the pursued vehicle a start of , say 3 minutes, how fast to catch it within 5 km?

[Big Dave]

why should I

Because you'd have a higher likelihood of being killed by the amount of out of control fucktards that would be on the road if they just let them get away with it.

[Hopeful Bastard]

This has to be one of the Hottest threads for a while... There are currently 30 users browsing this thread. (24 members and 6 guests)

[bogan]

I don't altogether agree witha 'police should never pursue' approach <rb/>
but - I wonder, if the cop clocked a car at 154 kph, just how fast did he imagine he was going to have to go himself, to catch said speeding car, allowing for the time he would have lost doing his three point turn?

Anyone want to work it out or estimate it? To catch a car travelling at 154kph, from a standing start, giving the pursued vehicle a start of , say 3 minutes, how fast to catch it within 5 km?

At 150kmhr the car would cover 2.5km every minute, so even with only a 1 minute head start the cop would have to do over 300kmhr to catch him with 5k.

Was a horrible, needless tragedy, and my condolences to all who knew Paul.

A quick question though, what is the relative frequencies of these incidents with cars/trucks? I can't recall any but it may be cos I'm a biker so remember biker stuff more.

[saltydog]

Anyone want to work it out or estimate it? To catch a car travelling at 154kph, from a standing start, giving the pursued vehicle a start of , say 3 minutes, how fast to catch it within 5 km?

I'm no mathmatician, far from it...but the copper would have to take that commy over 300 to catch up wouldnt he? 154km/hr x 3 mins = 7.7kms from the start of the coppers chase...from there the maths eludes me.......

[Jantar]

Anyone want to work it out or estimate it? To catch a car travelling at 154kph, from a standing start, giving the pursued vehicle a start of , say 3 minutes, how fast to catch it within 5 km?
At 154 kmh for 3 minutes the car has already travelled 7.7 km. Therefore for the cop to catch the car in only 5 km with a start of 3 minutes the cop will need to make time go backwards. In theory this may be possible at an average speed of around 1.5 C where C is the speed of light.

T^2= T'^2*(1 - V^2/C^2)

[SMOKEU]

IT IS! because the cop could clearly see that the chase has been going on for while and offender is just not goint to pull over...so now its just a waiting game until the "retard" hits someone (for price of speeding ticket). If they call off the chase like they are directed nobody gets hurt...but sadly cops dont give a flying fuck about other people on the roads when chasing the $$$$

Acutaly i dont even condone chasing criminals (not just speeders), why should I or my family die on the next corner because someone escaped prison or something and cops want to have some fun on high speed chase!

Life is too fucking short to be killed for nothing (especialy by NZ police)!


It's still not the cops fault for killing someone unless the police vehicle has a collision with another vehicle. If cops didn't chase criminals, then every second criminal would be robbing banks all day long knowing that they won't get caught. Vehicle theft would increase dramatically as well, as would almost every other crime. Murderers, rapists and kiddy fiddlers would have a field day. Great idea isn't it!

[Indoo]

Given the rate at which careless driving by cops kills motorcyclists (and they don't appear to give a shit about it),

Not to get in the way of a good public lynching and mass hysteria, but does anyone actually have the figures and examples of other cases to back up Ixions claims?

[Kiwi Graham]

Better pic...204967
Unbeliveable to think this wasa safe place to do a U turn

What a crazy place to do a u-turn!!
Bloody crazy

That sounds right. I've seen the very same behaviour by a cop on double yellows on SH5.
I (personally) have seen it on Lincoln Road, Henderson in rush hour!!

I don't altogether agree witha 'police should never pursue' approach <rb/>
but - I wonder, if the cop clocked a car at 154 kph, just how fast did he imagine he was going to have to go himself, to catch said speeding car, allowing for the time he would have lost doing his three point turn?

Anyone want to work it out or estimate it? To catch a car travelling at 154kph, from a standing start, giving the pursued vehicle a start of , say 3 minutes, how fast to catch it within 5 km?
I would imagine while executing this dumb ass (killer) manover he would have been on the radio at the same time!!!!

RIP Paul and condolances to friends and family

[Okey Dokey]

What a tragic loss of life. The picture of the accident scene is just awful.

[cromagnon]

I don't altogether agree witha 'police should never pursue' approach <rb/>
but - I wonder, if the cop clocked a car at 154 kph, just how fast did he imagine he was going to have to go himself, to catch said speeding car, allowing for the time he would have lost doing his three point turn?

Anyone want to work it out or estimate it? To catch a car travelling at 154kph, from a standing start, giving the pursued vehicle a start of , say 3 minutes, how fast to catch it within 5 km?

154kph = 2.56 kilometres per minute, so in 3 mins the car will already be about 7.5km away!

[Katman]

Anyone want to work it out or estimate it? To catch a car travelling at 154kph, from a standing start, giving the pursued vehicle a start of , say 3 minutes, how fast to catch it within 5 km?

Did you just pluck the figure of 3 minutes out of your arse?

Is the cop going to sit there and roll a fag before setting off in pursuit?

[Mudfart]

we saw 7 or 8 cop cars go screaming thru te kauwhata with sirens and lights blaring. We thought it must be a hostage or gun involvment.
I hope they needed the entire waikato police force to preserve the crime scene, and not contaminate it.
even 1 hr after the first car blazed thru, they were still headed out there.

[Usarka]

Did you just pluck the figure of 3 minutes out of your arse?

Is the cop going to sit there and roll a fag before setting off in pursuit?

Judging by the (apparent) quality of decision making I'd say it was a doobie that he was rolling.

[MSTRS]

That would be the protection detail for the offender...

[Mudfart]

At 154 kmh for 3 minutes the car has already travelled 7.7 km. Therefore for the cop to catch the car in only 5 km with a start of 3 minutes the cop will need to make time go backwards. In theory this may be possible at an average speed of around 1.5 C where C is the speed of light.

T^2= T'^2*(1 - V^2/C^2)
his first problem lies in the fact that his acceleration to the speed required (1.5c), would have to be instantaneous, and hes in the wrong vehicle for that. also he and his vehicle need to be made of photons.

[cromagnon]

his first problem lies in the fact that his acceleration to the speed required (1.5c), would have to be instantaneous, and hes in the wrong vehicle for that. also he and his vehicle need to be made of photons.

If only his vehicle was made of photons

[Katman]

Not to get in the way of a good public lynching and mass hysteria, but does anyone actually have the figures and examples of other cases to back up Ixions claims?

'Twould be a brave person who would ever willingly try to work out the twisted machinations of Ixion's mind.

[Mudfart]

there was the incident last year or a couple yrs ago, i think it was around central nth island, a cop tried a u turn at a blind corner, and wiped 2 or 3 bikers out coming around the corner, and killed them. one was a pillion i think.

[saltydog]

Judging by the (apparent) quality of decision making I'd say it was a doobie that he was rolling.

I did wonder why it took our example copper 3 mins to start the pursuit..

[terbang]

Stupid, stupid, farken stupid accident, for what?
When will those farken useless NZ cops learn to drive..?

[Tank]

Its a very sad situation. Upshot looking at the pictures is that it was a terrible lack of judgement by the police office which lead to this entirely preventable death.

And yes - the police office should be charged (if it is as it looks) - but sadly this is no different to what happens each and every day to people on bikers by inattentive drivers (police of not).

Apparently (according to ACC) we are the most 'at risk' group on the road - but they continue to spend millions on "speeding kills" "drink driving kills" - but almost nothing on promoting care and awareness of car drivers about the bikes on the road (the very same ones that are the most at risk).

Also - specifically on the police u-turn - there have been several people hurt / killed by this in the last couple of years - Something needs to be done about the police policy on this. I'm for one going to write to the Minister of police - its not much but I would like to do something. Perhaps if enough of us did something it might, just might help make a difference.

[Katman]

And with regard to the photo from a couple of pages back - from where the photo was taken it looks like the accident happened very close to the brow of the blind crest.

I would imagine that the view, if taken from where the accident occurred, would show quite a different picture.

[MSTRS]

And with regard to the photo from a couple of pages back, from where the photo was taken it looks like the accident happened very close to the brow of the blind crest.

I have no doubt that the view, if taken from where the accident occurred, would show quite a different picture.

Well - there'd be no damaged vehicles in the shot, and the crest would be even closer. If taken at a driver's eye level, there'd no view further beyond the current vanishing point.

[Mom]

Just had Radio NZ looking for an interview. Their attitude was basically that the police guidelines need reviewing.


Apparently (according to ACC) we are the most 'at risk' group on the road - but they continue to spend millions on "speeding kills" "drink driving kills" - but almost nothing on promoting care and awareness of car drivers about the bikes on the road (the very same ones that are the most at risk).



Lets not forget that this will also go down in the statistics as another motorcycle accident as far as ACC are concerned.

What a waste of a young mans life!

Those photos make chilling viewing.

[Katman]

and the crest would be even closer........

......with maybe the ability to see further over the crest than we can?

[Coldrider]

With maybe the ability to see further over the crest than we can?True, but the officer sitting in his car is lower than a photogrpher taking a photo.

[MSTRS]

Sorry - didn't get the edit in in time.

[Katman]

True, but the officer sitting in his car is lower than a photogrpher taking a photo.

Can you work out the gradient of that road just by looking at the picture?

[terbang]

And with regard to the photo from a couple of pages back - from where the photo was taken it looks like the accident happened very close to the brow of the blind crest.

I would imagine that the view, if taken from where the accident occurred, would show quite a different picture.

Yup, I agree it happened close to the crest of a hill. I bet the picture from the poor victims position wasn't pretty either. Shame he won't be around to describe it as I'm sure our brainless plod will paint a suitable picture of his own.

[Kiwi675]

Have a look on Google Maps street view. You can make your own judgements.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Te+Kauwhata,+Waikato,+New+Zealand&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=43.983628,92.724609&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FYk_xf0doXhwCg&split=0&hq=&hnear=Te+Kauwhata,+Waikato,+New+Zealand&ll=-37.381684,175.217096&spn=0,0.005659&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=-37.381744,175.216999&panoid=swmIK7sJ5vRJf-I82-nwkQ&cbp=12,218.07,,0,0.39

Keep in mind that the Google camera is mounted about 3.5metres above the road.

[Zamiam]

How is it the cops fault if someone else crashes into an innocent member of the public?

I said I didn't have the solution BUT maybe if the cop wasn't chasing them the idiot wouldn't loose control and take out some innocent party. I am sick of the Police saying they called off the pursuit 2 seconds or so before the accident so as to excuse themselves from being a party to the accident.

[Coldrider]

......with maybe the ability to see further over the crest than we can?


Can you work out the gradient of that road just by looking at the picture?tripped yourself up here, just shows your talking shit.

[Zamiam]

IT IS! because the cop could clearly see that the chase has been going on for while and offender is just not goint to pull over...so now its just a waiting game until the "retard" hits someone (for price of speeding ticket). If they call off the chase like they are directed nobody gets hurt...but sadly cops dont give a flying fuck about other people on the roads when chasing the $$$$

Acutaly i dont even condone chasing criminals (not just speeders), why should I or my family die on the next corner because someone escaped prison or something and cops want to have some fun on high speed chase!

Life is too fucking short to be killed for nothing (especialy by NZ police)!

Exactly well said - lets not forget its about revenue generation NOT road safety. You'll never convince me that putting a patrol car or a speed camera on a straight piece of road, at the bottom of a hill or end of a passing lane is in the interest of road safety. Yes speeding is a contributing factor to many accidents BUT its speed inappropriate for the environment (be that road conditions, driver condition, vehcile condition or what have you).

[Katman]

tripped yourself up here, just shows your talking shit.

How do you work that out?

I'm merely pointing out that a photo can be a highly misleading source of information.

[Katman]

Yes speeding is a contributing factor to many accidents BUT its speed inappropriate for the environment (be that road conditions, driver condition, vehcile condition or what have you).

Now there's an interesting thought.

[cowpatz]

Another cop takes a life needlessly. What was he thinking? Me thinks Enid was a thinking ....Those goddam Dukes again....whoo, whoo, whoo.. Quick...decisive.....and wrong.
On face value he should be looking at a manslaughter charge.
If I were the family I would be looking at a civil action.
This obsession they have with speed and the chase has to stop. More are killed than saved!

[Coldrider]

How do you work that out?

I'm merely pointing out that a photo can be a highly misleading source of information.No, you suggest the scene may look different with a photo taken from another position.
I suggested the scene may look different from where the photo was taken (ie the vision of the officer).

[Beemer]

The rider has been named - http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3595827/Motorcyclist-killed-in-police-collision-named

Very sad for his family.

Photos can be deceptive, especially when zoom lenses are used, it can shorten the perspective somewhat. But it's still a very dangerous place to do a U-turn. What if the mate of the guy doing 154kph had been right behind him?

[cmoore]

It certainly looks like a dumb spot to turn....my guess is a head rush...and excitement at the chase....if joe public did this they would be charged for sure, we will have to wait and see what happens....very sorry for the rider and his Family, didn't look like he had a chance...

[MSTRS]

Argue all you like about angles and shit. The yellow just lies there telling its own story...

[FROSTY]

Im in NO way taking the cops side in this.Dangerous place to pull a u'ey PERIOD --if you know that bit of road. its resulted in a death which is tragic.
BUT--the guy doing 150 km/h was doing so up onto that self same blind crest at one and a half times the legal speed limit. Should the cop really NOT chase someone going at that speed?

[Ronin]

Im in NO way taking the cops side in this.Dangerous place to pull a u'ey PERIOD --if you know that bit of road. its resulted in a death which is tragic.
BUT--the guy doing 150 km/h was doing so up onto that self same blind crest at one and a half times the legal speed limit. Should the cop really NOT chase someone going at that speed?

Yes, yes he should. When it is safe to do so.

[Stirts]

Fuck sakes.... I thought all Police cars had radios!?! Could he not radio ahead to a fellow cop to give chase to the speedster? (Given that he had to pull a 3 point turn more like) Oh wait....how silly of me, would mean he would be handing his quota to another cop.

[miloking]

It's still not the cops fault for killing someone unless the police vehicle has a collision with another vehicle. If cops didn't chase criminals, then every second criminal would be robbing banks all day long knowing that they won't get caught. Vehicle theft would increase dramatically as well, as would almost every other crime. Murderers, rapists and kiddy fiddlers would have a field day. Great idea isn't it!

Yes, because kiddy fiddlers are frequent participants on high speed chases :) lol

Seriously, i dont care what is the reason for chase, escaped prisoner,bank robber or someone who raped his sister but why should that be my problem and affect my life by being hit by either of them while sitting somewhere on intersection.

Also thats why police has radio and helicopter units...so we dont have to get killed by them (or the people they chase) in cars.

[SMOKEU]

Fuck sakes.... I thought all Police cars had radios!?! Could he not radio ahead to a fellow cop to give chase to the speedster? Oh wait....how silly of me, would mean he would be handing his quota to another cop.

Contrary to popular belief, there is not a cop hiding on the side of the road every 500m waiting to bust people for speeding.

[SMOKEU]

Yes, because kiddy fiddlers are frequent participants on high speed chases :) lol

Seriously, i dont care what is the reason for chase, escaped prisoner,bank robber or someone who raped his sister but why should that be my problem and affect my life by being hit by either of them while sitting somewhere on intersection.

Also thats why police has radio and helicopter units...so we dont have to get killed by them (or the people they chase) in cars.

Not every cop shop has a whirly on the roof waiting to take off at the slightest hint of a chase.

[miloking]

Contrary to popular belief, there is not a cop hiding on the side of the road every 500m waiting to bust people for speeding.

Ok then forget about the speeder then, some other cop will get him some other day.... 1 bikers life saved right there!!!

[miloking]

Not every cop shop has a whirly on the roof waiting to take off at the slightest hint of a chase.

Well, maybe they should buy more helicopters not more rubbish bins/hiace vans with cameras hidding in them!!!!!!

(refresh my memory how many milions of dollars was revenue from speeding offences alone last year, 50-ish or more???)

[98tls]

Rip and thoughts to his family and friends.Didnt bother reading the pages of opinions from the KB experts flying into a frenzy of bullshit.The whole affairs very sad and needless,why it has to be taken to bits on here is beyond me,like a pack of bloody Hyenas.

[Big Dave]

Rip and thoughts to his family and friends.Didnt bother reading the pages of opinions from the KB experts flying into a frenzy of bullshit.The whole affairs very sad and needless,why it has to be taken to bits on here is beyond me,like a pack of bloody Hyenas.

What part of 'discussion forum' are you having difficulty with?

[miloking]

Rip and thoughts to his family and friends.Didnt bother reading the pages of opinions from the KB experts flying into a frenzy of bullshit.The whole affairs very sad and needless,why it has to be taken to bits on here is beyond me,like a pack of bloody Hyenas.

It has to be ripped apart like hyenas so maybe enough people get pissed off and something gets done so you or me dont have to die like this tomorrow, next week whenever....just like Mr. Brown did!!!! (may he rest in peace)

[Ronin]

Rip and thoughts to his family and friends.Didnt bother reading the pages of opinions from the KB experts flying into a frenzy of bullshit.The whole affairs very sad and needless,why it has to be taken to bits on here is beyond me,like a pack of bloody Hyenas.

There is a condolence thread which by in large is well behaved... This isn't it.

[Stirts]

I can see where you are coming from 98tls but reading the link that Beemer posted, kind of makes me think that we should be discussing this and also certainly consider some form of action - as Tank suggested. In my opinion this seems to be happening a little too often.

[Swoop]

Is the cop going to sit there and roll a fag before setting off in pursuit?
Having personally known a cop who was based on traffic duties... "YES" is the correct answer to this question. Some of them will do exactly that.

[SPman]

Exactly well said - lets not forget its about revenue generation NOT road safety. You'll never convince me that putting a patrol car or a speed camera on a straight piece of road, at the bottom of a hill or end of a passing lane is in the interest of road safety. .Actually, I don't think it's about revenue generation - I think it's about easy, lazy policing! Easy and lazy to watch numbers on a machine indicate a crossing of some predetermined boundary, which may, or may not, bear any relationship to "safety", and then pull over said offender and issue a ticket. No critical thinking, judgement calls or any thoughts of "is this breach as bad as it seems or dangerous for the conditions", required. Just another lazy ticket to put on your PI sheet to satisfy parameters handed down by statistic driven ideolouges higher up the ladder!

[Forest]

Very sad for everyone involved.

It just reinforces what I learned many years ago. Riding talent isn't enough, by itself, to preserve a rider's life.

[SMOKEU]

Well, maybe they should buy more helicopters not more rubbish bins/hiace vans with cameras hidding in them!!!!!!



True, but choppers are very expensive to buy and maintain (have a look on TM to see the prices of a 4 seater chopper). Hiring pilots to sit at a cop shop 24/7 waiting for a chase isn't cheap either.

[denill]

Clearly safety has taken a back seat to being able to issue a speeding ticket. When cops realize that making the roads safer is priority number one and generating revenue is priority number two the roads will be a lot safer. RIP.

Cops said: "Mr Tooman said he hoped the driver of the ute would come forward to help police with their investigation"

Is that an implication that the Ute driver caused the death??

Red mist syndrome caused it Tooman. Suck it in Tooman and admit the cop killed the biker.

[Ixion]

Im in NO way taking the cops side in this.Dangerous place to pull a u'ey PERIOD --if you know that bit of road. its resulted in a death which is tragic.
BUT--the guy doing 150 km/h was doing so up onto that self same blind crest at one and a half times the legal speed limit. Should the cop really NOT chase someone going at that speed?

Well, if the guy was going 154kph (and the precision of the number suggests a radar readout), then there was no way the cop was going to perform a safe stop, 3 point turn and pursuit and catch him. He'd have to big a lead. So, in this case, no he should not chase. To do so would be pointless and simply make a dangerous situation more dangerous (as tragically proved to be the case)

[Ixion]

Cops said: "Mr Tooman said he hoped the driver of the ute would come forward to help police with their investigation"

Is that an implication that the Ute driver caused the death??

Red mist syndrome caused it Tooman. Suck it in Tooman and admit the cop killed the biker.

Pretty clear they're looking for a scape goat.

[MSTRS]

Cops said: "Mr Tooman said he hoped the driver of the ute would come forward to help police with their investigation"

...

Like that is gonna happen...
The ute driver is probably sitting down comparing notes with the cunt that dropped oil on SH5 Feb 09.

[Max Preload]

What a crazy place to do a u-turn!!

3-point turn I think you'll find...


No matter the reason, a cop would rape anyone else doing some sort of turn there.
Whilst some laws do not apply to cops, the law of simple commonsense does not play favourites...

The laws of common sense carry only that penalty which applies to your personal morals. I doubt this snake's conscience will be rattled.


Give them time...

"failing to be able to stop in half the clear distance" will probably be trotted out.

The road is marked in lanes - so it's clear distance. But I have no doubt you're correct in your prediction.

[miloking]

True, but choppers are very expensive to buy and maintain (have a look on TM to see the prices of a 4 seater chopper). Hiring pilots to sit at a cop shop 24/7 waiting for a chase isn't cheap either.

Yes you are right, they are expensive and probably would be utter waste of money to use them for any other reason then serious crime related stuff...but we would realy only need one or two for every major city. (actualy the ones police already has is probably enough)

[FROSTY]

Nope can't agree with ya there. Heard the story of the rabit and the turtle? The cops might not catch him right away but that 150km driver always slows down

[peasea]

I feel sick now ive seen that photo, better go have a lay down.

Thats way to close to the brow of that hill ! !

Crazy Steve.

Absolutely correct. Perhaps the 'Bridgeman Manoeuvre' (as per the Buller Gorge) is now taught in police college as an acceptable method of initiating a pursuit. For anyone (regardless of their 'duty' or whatever) to perform a U-turn (or any type of turn) at that point is lunacy.

Break out the torches, the noose and let's have a lynchin'.

This twat had better be charged with something. (Oh, and found guilty after a fair trial and all.)

[Deano]

Nope can't agree with ya there. Heard the story of the rabit and the turtle? The cops might not catch him right away but that 150km driver always slows down

Rabbit and turtle is a fable. Like, fiction Frosty. This is real life.....and death.

It is more plausible that the car doing 154kph would speed up after seeing the cop and crash trying to run.

[peasea]

I can see where you are coming from 98tls but reading the link that Beemer posted, kind of makes me think that we should be discussing this and also certainly consider some form of action - as Tank suggested. In my opinion this seems to be happening a little too often.

Like an investigation? By who? The Grand Police Whitewash Committee? Yeah, right, that'll give the rider some justice, not.

One of these incidents I could get my head around, two does my head in and we've had how many? There was the Buller Gorge, then there was one in Nelson, my daughter was involved in one (wrote her car off, could have killed her) and now this. It's just not good enough from those who are supposed to a) set an example and b) serve and protect us. It would appear that they're too damned busy taxing the crap out of us to pay attention to basic road rules. They get the big adrenalin rush and the gung-ho attitude the minute someone goes over 111kph and it's all on.

[FROSTY]

Hmm- The job is so tough that the country is actively advertising even internationally for staff. They can't or wont retain the experienced coppers. now we are seeing the issues that lack of on the job experience causes.

[Stirts]

Like an investigation? By who? The Grand Police Whitewash Committee? .

Fuck no.....we all know that any police "investigations" in NZ are a farce! My poor little brain isn't up to the challenge of "what to do", all I know is this is beyond ridiculous and SOMETHING needs to happen before more innocent people get murdered!

[miloking]

They get the big adrenalin rush and the gung-ho attitude the minute someone goes over 111kph and it's all on.

It makes me think how pointless this whole incident is (not accident that would imply there is nobody at fault)...yes the reason for the pursuit was someone doing 154.3 km/h but that is still peanuts considering most other civilized countries (europe) have 130Km/h limits on open roads (or no limits at all) so most people travel at 150km/h anyway and its not considered nothing but "little over the limit" but here its a crime against humanity!!!

I say lets review open road speed limits while we are at it!!!

[peasea]

Hmm- The job is so tough that the country is actively advertising even internationally for staff. They can't or wont retain the experienced coppers. now we are seeing the issues that lack of on the job experience causes.

While I agree with the sentiment I would hasten to point out that here we see a lack of basic driving skill, never mind 'on the job experience'. Nobody should be turning (for any reason) at that point in the road. Who gave that clown a license? (How old is this copper anyway?)

[Bikemad]

Hmm- The job is so tough that the country is actively advertising even internationally for staff. They can't or wont retain the experienced coppers. now we are seeing the issues that lack of on the job experience causes.

Not in this instance Frosty...........heard on the radio today quoting the mr tooman cop sayin the officer involved is a veteran cop who has worked tirelessly to reduce the road toll...........

[peasea]

Fuck no.....we all know that any police "investigations" in NZ are a farce! My poor little brain isn't up to the challenge of "what to do", all I know is this is beyond ridiculous and SOMETHING needs to happen before more innocent people get murdered!

I wouldn't use the 'm' word, but certainly that cop should be charged with something along the lines of careless use causing death, which should be something like vehicular manslaughter and carry a minimum jail sentence. (Regardless of what the perp does for a living.)

[Muppet]

Just heard about this, for god's sake not again!! And it's the Tortoise and the Hare, not the Rabbit and the Turtle.

[peasea]

Not in this instance Frosty...........heard on the radio today quoting the mr tooman cop sayin the officer involved is a veteran cop who has worked tirelessly to reduce the road toll...........

By pulling mad-cap stunts all over the Waikato and this time he (and an innocent biker) came unstuck. I'd be very, very surprised if this was the first time that 'veteran' had done something crazy to catch a speedster.

[yungatart]

Looks like a dumb place to pick to do a U-turn/3 point turn.
The cop's common sense went right out the window at the thrill of the chase.
Pity it wasn't one of those new big rigs the gubbmint is going to allow on our roads, instead of a motorcyclist.....

[peasea]

Looks like a dumb place to pick to do a U-turn/3 point turn.
The cop's common sense went right out the window at the thrill of the chase.
Pity it wasn't one of those new big rigs the gubbmint is going to allow on our roads, instead of a motorcyclist.....

We all have dreams.........

[Katman]

The unfortunate thing here (besides the tragic loss of life) is that the greatest lesson that can be learned from this incident will probably fly straight over the head of most on here.

[miloking]

Pity it wasn't one of those new big rigs the gubbmint is going to allow on our roads, instead of a motorcyclist.....

+1 on the if only it was!!!

i can see the headline already..."Stupid cops dies while doing Uturn by being hit by 30ton truck!"

[CHAPLIN]

No wonder they want to put up our ACC levys

[miloking]

The unfortunate thing here (besides the tragic loss of life) is that the greatest lesson that can be learned from this incident will fly straight over the head of most on here.

What lesson is that??? ...if you had any respect left for NZ police its out of window now? Or ride 75km/h on open road with your hand on a front brake in constant fear of death???

[Max Preload]

Ok - quick calculation.

Assumptions:
Cop driving at 100km/h got the ute speed reading of 154km/h at a distance of 150m.
Cop took 5 seconds to slow to turn and 3 seconds to turn.
Cop accelerated linearly to 200km/h in 15 seconds and sat at 200km/h.
Ute remained at a steady 154km/h (yeah, right!).

Total distance needed to catch ute (to a chase distance of 75m behind): 2.1km.
Total time of pursuit to catch up to ute from speed reading: 61 seconds.
The ute would be 340m away as the cop completes his turn to pursue.
The ute would be 830m away by the time the cop gets to 200km/h.

[miloking]

Ok - quick calculation.

Assumptions:
.
The ute would be 940m away by the time the cop gets to 200km/h

The ute would be 940m away by the time the cop gets to 200km/h and sitting behind the bush on side road waiting for the fuzz to fly by.....

[peasea]

Ok - quick calculation.

Assumptions:
Cop driving at 100km/h got the ute speed reading of 154km/h at a distance of 150m.
Cop took 5 seconds to slow to turn and 3 seconds to turn.
Cop accelerated linearly to 200km/h in 15 seconds and sat at 200km/h.
Ute remained at a steady 154km/h (yeah, right!).

Total distance needed to catch ute (to a chase distance of 75m behind): 3.1km.
Total time of pursuit to catch up to ute from speed reading: 78 seconds.
The ute would be 300m away as the cop completes his turn to pursue.
The ute would be 940m away by the time the cop gets to 200km/h.

Meaning............if the cop stops for doughnuts the ute will escape?

[Ixion]

I couldn't do a *safe* three point turn in 3 seconds.

[peasea]

No wonder they want to put up our ACC levys

They should up the cops ACC levies 100-fold.
And put them through an independent driving course....

[peasea]

I couldn't do a *safe* three point turn in 3 seconds.

Was this copper in motion or parked on the side of the road when he spotted the offender?

[tigertim20]

While I agree that when safe, cops should pursue, the fact is, from the current information, it WASNT safe to pursue. for one, regardless of other conditions or circumstances, the cop needs to get a radar lock, and get the speed of 154. then his brain has to compute. then he has to slow to a stop from 100km/hr+/-. then check the road is safe. by now 20 seconds have easily passed, then it takes what, 5-10 seconds to perform the turn, AFTER taking a couple seconds to check the road is clear. THEN its gonna take the cop about 8-10 seconds to accelerate to 154km/hr. now the speeder already has a gap of about 1.7-2km head start. how much faster will the cop need to travel to CATCH the guy. he would need to travel at at least 200km for a fair amount of time.

aside from that consider the yellow lines and the place he chose to turn.

lack of thought cost a biker his life. tragedy that couldve been avoided.


Like that is gonna happen...
The ute driver is probably sitting down comparing notes with the cunt that dropped oil on SH5 Feb 09.
agree. if you were the ute driver, would you be fessing up that your were speeding, knowing theyd try to pin the bikers death on you? I fuckin welll wouldnt.

[Max Preload]

I couldn't do a *safe* three point turn in 3 seconds.

I was being generous and made the cop's deceleration to 0km/h.

[peasea]

While I agree that when safe, cops should pursue, the fact is, from the current information, it WASNT safe to pursue. for one, regardless of other conditions or circumstances, the cop needs to get a radar lock, and get the speed of 154. then his brain has to compute. then he has to slow to a stop from 100km/hr+/-.

Was the biker behind the cop or travelling in the same direction as the ute?

[Ixion]

Was the biker behind the cop or travelling in the same direction as the ute?

Apparently, the cop was in motion , going up the hill (presumably, around 100kph, but that's an assumption). ute was going down the hill, bike was following the ute. Cop must have turned bewteen the ute and bike.

[Snap]

Very sad news.
R.I.P :(

[Crasherfromwayback]

Was the biker behind the cop or travelling in the same direction as the ute?

Opposite direction I believe...same way the ute was going

[Bikemad]

Ok - quick calculation.

Assumptions:
Cop driving at 100km/h got the ute speed reading of 154km/h at a distance of 150m.
Cop took 5 seconds to slow to turn and 3 seconds to turn.
Cop accelerated linearly to 200km/h in 15 seconds and sat at 200km/h.
Ute remained at a steady 154km/h (yeah, right!).

Total distance needed to catch ute (to a chase distance of 75m behind): 3.1km.
Total time of pursuit to catch up to ute from speed reading: 78 seconds.
The ute would be 300m away as the cop completes his turn to pursue.
The ute would be 520m away by the time the cop gets to 200km/h.

also you forgot to add in another 10 seconds for the excited cop to get his pants unzipped and his hand on it..........

[Indoo]

Given the rate at which careless driving by cops kills motorcyclists (and they don't appear to give a shit about it).

Got those figures yet Ixion? you should really produce them to expose the true extent of the problem.

[shrub]

I nearly had a similar experience on Easter Saturday. My son and I were riding down Marshlands Rd and a cop about 3 seconds ahead of us (my preferred following distance these days) hit his brakes and did a U turn to chase something. I have a paranoid distrust of all car drivers, including ones with disco lights, so the moment I saw him braking and pulling to the left i was on my brakes, so I continued on my journey and pretty much forgot about it until today. I was lucky, I had around 3 secs of space.

But the story has a twist. On the Thursday (2 days before) I got pinged by a cop for doing 63 kmh, and he had to do a U turn to get me because when he picked me up he was on the other side of the road. After he had told me how dangerously I was riding he spotted a dodgy looking boy racer car going the other way, jumped in his car and did another U turn and I remember at the time noticing that a car moved to the left of the road to avoid him.

I'm saddened by this news, but not surprised; in fact if I am at all surprised it's that more people aren't killed by Police errors.

[terbang]

This thread is about decision making. Clearly a very bad decision (a guy was killed) was made by a so called professional road user. One who should have known better, one who should have been employed, trained and remunerated to know better. But he obviously wasn't. So when is this stupid gummint of ours going to put our corrupt (remember Clint) and stupid police force onto a more accountable path (remember the 4.5mill kiwi Easter road toll compared to the 19mill Aussies). They are failing in their duties miserably and need a complete makeover.

[Str8 Jacket]

open road with your hand on a front brake in constant fear of death???

TBH, that's the way I have learnt I *have* to ride to survive. Even if I am just pootling down to the supermarket. Unfortunately sometimes we have to accept that we are much more vulnerable than most other road users and ride or take our chances accordingly.

What also scares me re the vulnerability thing is that this has happened to someone who had alot of skill on a motorbike and he obviously didn't have a chance.....

The 'baying for blood' and anger that people are feeling is understandable at the moment but for me it's the realisation that we are so vulnerable on our bikes and we should never take that for granted. And I am sorry but I feel as sorry for the cop as I do for Paul's family. It could have happened to any of us. Let's hope that a lesson may finally be learnt by everyone from this tragedy.

[Bikemad]

just seen good old Leo Tooman on the news................officer involved has 35 years experience and has performed this manouvre "thousands of times"................wanker

[twotyred]

I nearly had a similar experience on Easter Saturday. My son and I were riding down Marshlands Rd and a cop about 3 seconds ahead of us (my preferred following distance these days) hit his brakes and did a U turn to chase something. I have a paranoid distrust of all car drivers, including ones with disco lights, so the moment I saw him braking and pulling to the left i was on my brakes, so I continued on my journey and pretty much forgot about it until today. I was lucky, I had around 3 secs of space.

But the story has a twist. On the Thursday (2 days before) I got pinged by a cop for doing 63 kmh, and he had to do a U turn to get me because when he picked me up he was on the other side of the road. After he had told me how dangerously I was riding he spotted a dodgy looking boy racer car going the other way, jumped in his car and did another U turn and I remember at the time noticing that a car moved to the left of the road to avoid him.

I'm saddened by this news, but not surprised; in fact if I am at all surprised it's that more people aren't killed by Police errors.

This is what I was thinking,clearly this is happening on a daily basis all over the nation,but usually they manage to get away without slaughtering anyone...

[Fatjim]

Looks like a dumb place to pick to do a U-turn/3 point turn.
The cop's common sense went right out the window at the thrill of the chase.
Pity it wasn't one of those new big rigs the gubbmint is going to allow on our roads, instead of a motorcyclist.....

See, if a chick can figure out this is not a good place to do a utrun, why can't a freaking cop?

[peasea]

Apparently, the cop was in motion , going up the hill (presumably, around 100kph, but that's an assumption). ute was going down the hill, bike was following the ute. Cop must have turned bewteen the ute and bike.

Which makes me think (right or wrong) that the cop got his fix (bad pun I know) locked on, hit the lights and siren and started his turn with his eyes looking in entirely the wrong direction. Probably transfixed on the ute while mentally rubbing his hands together to a 'ka-ching' noise in his head not too dissimilar to that of the intro to Pink Floyd's "Money".

[peasea]

just seen good old Leo Tooman on the news................officer involved has 35 years experience and has performed this manouvre "thousands of times"................wanker

Agreed. If he's done it that often he needs rooting.

[98tls]

It has to be ripped apart like hyenas so maybe enough people get pissed off and something gets done so you or me dont have to die like this tomorrow, next week whenever....just like Mr. Brown did!!!! (may he rest in peace)

What exactly are you pissed off about the fact that the motorcyclist died or the fact that it was a cop doing a u-turn that caused his death?People in cars have been killing motorcyclists a long time and generally theres no "the sky is falling" reaction on here followed by pages of discussion in fact most times theres no mention.Cant personally see any reason for this thread other than the fact a cop was involved,given the number of cars driven by Joe Public compared to those driven by cops then methinks your barking up the wrong tree.Dead is dead,needless is needless no matter what the occupation of the car driver.

[peasea]

Opposite direction I believe...same way the ute was going

Thanks, see post 161.

[Bikemad]

Agreed. If he's done it that often he needs rooting.

ummmmm.........bags not dude

[Ixion]

Got those figures yet Ixion? you should really produce them to expose the true extent of the problem.

Well, lets see.

This is from the press, covers ONLY those where it went horribly bad.




Last year, a Nelson police officer was given diversion after he made a u-turn in front of a following car on State Highway 6 at Atawhai and the cars collided. No-one was injured in the crash.
In 2008, a police highway patrol car was hit by a following vehicle as it made a u-turn to chase a speeding motorcyclist near Midhirst in Taranaki. The following vehicle had pulled out and was passing the patrol car when the officer turned. No one was injured in the crash.
In December 2007, two motorcyclists were hurt after a police car did a U-turn in front of them in the Upper Buller Gorge near Nelson. The officer was turning to chase a speeding motorcyclist heading in the other direction.
Later that month, a motorcyclist was seriously injured when a police car, responding to an emergency call, made a u-turn on State Highway 2 near Maramarua in Waikato.

Add to that , since the Buller gorge incident.

Two occasions where I personally had to take emergency action to avoid a cop doing stupid.
At least 7 or 8 references on this site that I can recall, including at least a couple in this thread. That's just the ones that made a mention.

D' y' see a pattern here. No, probably not, none so blind as they who will not see.

And as Mr Tooman is on record as opining that every motorcyclist in the country is a recidivist drink rider , because he's seen bikes parked outside licensed cafes, I have no doubt he will easily convince himself that the rider was entirely to blame.

I wonder if the cop wandered over the body of the rider and abused him, as the Buller gorge cop did? Maybe you should start a poll?

Or , easier, see if anyone can remember an occasion when a cop did a SAFE U turn ?

[Dave-]

it's very sad indeed.

but be realistic guys, you cant expect the officer to do kinematic equations in his head preceding a persuit.

there's already laws in place that make the officers actions illegal and they were broken, do you expect additional laws or rules to remain unbroken?

[peasea]

What exactly are you pissed off about the fact that the motorcyclist died or the fact that it was a cop doing a u-turn that caused his death?People in cars have been killing motorcyclists a long time and generally theres no "the sky is falling" reaction on here followed by pages of discussion in fact most times theres no mention.Cant personally see any reason for this thread other than the fact a cop was involved,given the number of cars driven by Joe Public compared to those driven by cops then methinks your barking up the wrong tree.

The thing is; these cops (plural) who have pulled these dangerous turns have done so "in the execution of their duty" etc etc. Be that as it may, the cops are given certain powers when they go through their (so-called) training and they were exercising those powers right? However, with those powers comes responsibility, or at least it should. They need to use their powers responsibly and part of that responsibility is to perform their duty without placing members of the public at risk, or 'undue risk', whatever. This responsibility is lacking.

[ukusa]

I nearly had a similar experience on Easter Saturday. My son and I were riding down Marshlands Rd and a cop about 3 seconds ahead of us (my preferred following distance these days) hit his brakes and did a U turn to chase something. I have a paranoid distrust of all car drivers, including ones with disco lights, so the moment I saw him braking and pulling to the left i was on my brakes, so I continued on my journey and pretty much forgot about it until today. I was lucky, I had around 3 secs of space.

But the story has a twist. On the Thursday (2 days before) I got pinged by a cop for doing 63 kmh, and he had to do a U turn to get me because when he picked me up he was on the other side of the road. After he had told me how dangerously I was riding he spotted a dodgy looking boy racer car going the other way, jumped in his car and did another U turn and I remember at the time noticing that a car moved to the left of the road to avoid him.

I'm saddened by this news, but not surprised; in fact if I am at all surprised it's that more people aren't killed by Police errors.

teaching my son to drive at the moment, followed a cop around the Sockburn roundabout. I'm telling my son to indicate left to turn off the roundabout as we watch the cop in front taking the same direction as us WITHOUT indicating. Not the crime of the century, but not the first time I've witnessed this. These people are supposedly the enforcers of the rules of our roads, and they don't seem to know the rules themselves. Are they just lazy (mmmm, donuts).
As for u-turns, yes they can be dangerous, but also perfectly safe when done properly and in the right conditions. NOT on a blind hill/rise!
I am saddened to here of another needless death on our roads, and my thoughts go out to Paul's family.

[Mom]

heard on the radio today quoting the mr tooman cop sayin the officer involved is a veteran cop who has worked tirelessly to reduce the road toll...........


I'd be very, very surprised if this was the first time that 'veteran' had done something crazy to catch a speedster.

I can vouch for one veteran cop in that area and his ability to u-turn. I got a ticket in my car a few years ago, not very far from where this terrible crash happened. Now I got done for 113kph in the outside lane of a passing lane overtaking a truck. Copper was coming the other way. Next thing I know he is carving up the traffic behind me all lights and sirens. So I pulled over. His first words to me after commenting on how fast I was going was "I had to dangerously turn through 3 lanes of moving traffic to catch you". "My response was you didn't have to."

Be interesting to see if it is the same bloke.



What also scares me re the vulnerability thing is that this has happened to someone who had alot of skill on a motorbike and he obviously didn't have a chance.....

The 'baying for blood' and anger that people are feeling is understandable at the moment but for me it's the realisation that we are so vulnerable on our bikes and we should never take that for granted. And I am sorry but I feel as sorry for the cop as I do for Paul's family. It could have happened to any of us. Let's hope that a lesson may finally be learnt by everyone from this tragedy.

I am with you there Hels, but frankly I would never have pulled a U-turn/3 point turn there so I dont think that particular thing could happen to me as the driver of a car. As far as on my bike goes...

I ride like everyone is out to kill me, and that includes being hyper aware if I can not see the clear road in front of me.

Incredibly stupid, sensless thing to have happened.

[swbarnett]

To catch a car travelling at 154kph, from a standing start, giving the pursued vehicle a start of , say 3 minutes, how fast to catch it within 5 km?
Faster than the speed of light. The car's already done 7.7km.

[Bikemad]

it's very sad indeed.

but be realistic guys, you cant expect the officer to do kinematic equations in his head preceding a persuit.


no..........but be good if he looks both ways and for other legal motorists before pulling out to start his pursuit

[miloking]

Got those figures yet Ixion? you should really produce them to expose the true extent of the problem.

You mean these figures??? well here they are....

[steve_t]

but be realistic guys, you cant expect the officer to do kinematic equations in his head preceding a persuit.



The don't have to do any equations in their heads. They just need to assess if it is safe to do a u-turn (or 3 point turn) by checking that they can see far enough in either direction for a vehicle not to collide with them

[peasea]

Well, lets see.

This is from the press, covers ONLY those where it went horribly bad.



Add to that , since the Buller gorge incident.

Two occasions where I personally had to take emergency action to avoid a cop doing stupid.
At least 7 or 8 references on this site that I can recall, including at least a couple in this thread. That's just the ones that made a mention.

I'm also happy to post the details of what happened to my daughter in Dec 08 and also details of a cop doing a u-turn over double yellows (in a dip in the road) in front of my missus to chase me a couple of easters ago.

Fuckin' wankers!

[Forest]

It makes me think how pointless this whole incident is (not accident that would imply there is nobody at fault)...yes the reason for the pursuit was someone doing 154.3 km/h but that is still peanuts considering most other civilized countries (europe) have 130Km/h limits on open roads (or no limits at all) so most people travel at 150km/h anyway and its not considered nothing but "little over the limit" but here its a crime against humanity!!!

I say lets review open road speed limits while we are at it!!!

New Zealand is not Europe. In Europe:

1. It is much harder for drivers to obtain a driving license.

2. The construction and maintenance of the roading system is of a higher standard.

[MSTRS]

...now we are seeing the issues that lack of on the job experience causes.

I call Bullshit! to that...
In the Buller Gorge incident, that git had 30 years HP experience.
I believe it's more about what they're told to do, coupled with the individual's ability to actually think, rather than lack of experience...

[Str8 Jacket]

I am with you there Hels, but frankly I would never have pulled a U-turn/3 point turn there so I dont think that particular thing could happen to me as the driver of a car. As far as on my bike goes...



For sure and in hindesight he probably wouldn't have either. Now he has to live with this stupid mistake for the rest of his life....

[ukusa]

What exactly are you pissed off about the fact that the motorcyclist died or the fact that it was a cop doing a u-turn that caused his death?People in cars have been killing motorcyclists a long time and generally theres no "the sky is falling" reaction on here followed by pages of discussion in fact most times theres no mention.Cant personally see any reason for this thread other than the fact a cop was involved,given the number of cars driven by Joe Public compared to those driven by cops then methinks your barking up the wrong tree.Dead is dead,needless is needless no matter what the occupation of the car driver.

The difference with this one is the poor guy was killed by a person who's job it is to uphold the law, and who's job involves preaching the virtues to everyone else on the road. Seems he didn't practice what he preached! No different really than if a cop robbed a bank or murdered someone, it will create more discussion because ultimately they are breaking the laws they are paid to enforce.

[Kiwi675]

And this one 34 years of experience........................................ ..........

[Mom]

For sure and in hindesight he probably wouldn't have either. Now he has to live with this stupid mistake for the rest of his life....

Probably cost his his job too :yes:

[Elysium]

Not the news I like to hear. What bike was the the rider using?

[peasea]

You mean these figures??? well here they are....

Oh, that's gold, must spread rep etc. Well done old bean, graph being forwarded to everyone I know!

[peasea]

The difference with this one is the poor guy was killed by a person who's job it is to uphold the law, and who's job involves preaching the virtues to everyone else on the road. Seems he didn't practice what he preached! No different really than if a cop robbed a bank or murdered someone, it will create more discussion because ultimately they are breaking the laws they are paid to enforce.

See post 169

[Katman]

I'm sure there's others on here who are wondering what speed the motorcyclist was travelling at.




Ok, I've got a thick skin - I'll be the one to voice it.

[Indoo]

... D' y' see a pattern here. No, probably not, none so blind as they who will not see.

No I don't see a pattern indicating the pandemic of Police driving killing innocent motorcyclists which is what you claimed, infact you don't appear to have any evidence nor a single example to back up your claim, might want to correct that before appearing on the radio or not make up stuff in the first place.

Emotive claptrap isn't going to persuade anyone or change anything.

[Str8 Jacket]

I'm sure there's others on here who are wondering what speed the motorcyclist was travelling at.




Ok, I've got a thick skin - I'll be the one to voice it.

Yep, I thought about that but then we don't know what the visibility of either the cop or the rider was, where the sun was etc etc.... We will never know if he could have stopped in time and even if we did it wouldn't change the fact that a person has died.....

[Ixion]

We condemn dangerous and careless driving by policemen, because not only is it careless, dangerous , and stupid, but it is also a betrayal of trust

The police are granted enormous privileges- they have powers and exemptions not available to the public

We, society, grant them these privileges on the basis that they will be exercised reasonably, with due care and good judgement

When they are not, and when there is so much evidence that that dereliction is endemic, not a one-off extraordinary failing , then we are entitled to question the basis upon which those privileges are granted

If judgement as bad as this officers, and an attitude toward road safety so cavalier as his (he has done 'the same thing' , 'thousands of times' , says his boss, who seems quite happy with that ),is to be the common standard for police officers, then we must consider whether it is in the public interest to allow cops dispensation from the rules.

If the standard of police driving is no better than some random moron in a people mover, then the cops should be subject to the same rules as the people moving moron.

We trusted them. They have betrayed our trust. They should expect to be condemned not just for the dangerous driving, but for the betrayal of that trust also.

[Max Preload]

I'm sure there's others on here who are wondering what speed the motorcyclist was travelling at.

I am. The angle of the car in the photo would suggest Warp Factor 10.

[shrub]

I think the danger is the flashing lights. When cops flick on their lights they become bulletproof and expect every other road user to be able to avoid them.

And tonight a family and friends are sitting in their homes wondering what the hell they're going to do tomorrow as they face grief like nothing else and for many years now the world is denied the skills, friendship, resources of a man who had his life in front of him. And as has been pointed out, he was never going to catch that ute, so it was always going to be an excercise in futility.

[scumdog]

Not to get in the way of a good public lynching and mass hysteria, but does anyone actually have the figures and examples of other cases to back up Ixions claims?

I'm still waiting for Les to post some figures to back his claim 'Given the rate that careless driving by cops kills motorcyclists'

This is the first one killed that way that I can recall......the other one(s?) killed themselves...

[Elysium]

I'm sure there's others on here who are wondering what speed the motorcyclist was travelling at.




Ok, I've got a thick skin - I'll be the one to voice it.

Strange enough I was thinking the same thing. Someone said cop got between ute and bike, ute was clocked at 154km\h, so therefor would not bike be doing same speed?

[miloking]

I'm still waiting for Les to post some figures to back his claim 'Given the rate that careless driving by cops kills motorcyclists'

This is the first one killed that way that I can recall......the other one(s?) killed themselves...

I posted these figures already on page 12 ...they are as correct as Mr.Smiths ACC statistics...

[twotyred]

presumably the ute passed the bike

[98tls]

The difference with this one is the poor guy was killed by a person who's job it is to uphold the law, and who's job involves preaching the virtues to everyone else on the road. Seems he didn't practice what he preached! No different really than if a cop robbed a bank or murdered someone, it will create more discussion because ultimately they are breaking the laws they are paid to enforce.

Yea yea i understand that but it has just always seemed odd to me that as motorcyclists we jump up and down when a cops involved but take it on the chin when we hear of similar horror driving resulting in a motorcyclists death when its Joe Public driving the car,ive lost a cousin and 3 mates over the years,sitting here thinking about it and to be honest it would make no difference if a cop killed em rather than Joe Public car driver.But yea anyways just my take on the whole thing.

[terbang]

Well yes, no fatalities but the last one (Buller gorge) had some serious injuries. Now if lessons had been learnt with measures, procedures and above all, an instilment of self discipline over that one had been made, the situation may not have progressed to the next stage. A fatality.
So whats next or are they going to learn something this time.
I certainly hope that every cop in NZ has a good think about this one, does a bit of honest self analysis about their own personal discipline when faced with a similar situation. You are perceived by most as professional road users.

[Crazy Steve]

I did a Season at Fonterra in Te Rapa, and the Tanker drivers use that road as there race track.

Would of been very interesting to see a Fully loaded Milk Tanker hitting that Police car with 27500ltrs of milk on board.

Someone would of got very very WET !!

Crazy Steve.

[scumdog]

Or , easier, see if anyone can remember an occasion when a cop did a SAFE U turn ?

Me.
Today
10 times in 40 seconds
Then I got giddy and stopped
Because it was too dangerous

[Indoo]

I'm still waiting for Les to post some figures to back his claim 'Given the rate that careless driving by cops kills motorcyclists'

I'm sure Ixion wouldn't actually just make stuff up, would be rather damaging to his credibility given his position. I'm sure he will be producing the figures shortly so we can see the full horror of the endemic of Police slaying innocent motorcyclists.

[Naki Rat]

The police hierarchy and Stoney were just interviewed on National Radio (http://static.radionz.net.nz/assets/audio_item/0019/2271052/ckpt-20100419-1707-Bikers_say_motorcyclist_had_no_chance-m048.asx) . Great presentation Stoney..... and the police spokesman came across like a cornered rat, especially as the interviewer was in like a big dog. 50-60 metres from the brow of a blind brow :shit: the cop needs stringing up :2guns:

[tomobedlam]

Yep, I thought about that but then we don't know what the visibility of either the cop or the rider was, where the sun was etc etc.... We will never know if he could have stopped in time and even if we did it wouldn't change the fact that a person has died.....

Well we do actually, if the distance of 50m from the top of the hill report by RNZ is correct then we can conclued that he had no chance in hell of stopping in time traveling at a 100km/h

http://www.liikenneturva.fi/www/fi/animaatiot/mp_kaikkikieliversiot/StoppingDistanceMotorcycle.swf

[miloking]

I'm sure Ixion wouldn't actually just make stuff up, would be rather damaging to his credibility given his position. I'm sure he will be producing the figures shortly so we can see the full horror of the endemic of Police slaying innocent motorcyclists.

What are you two cops or something (you and Scumdog)?!?!

I dont know you guys so sorry if i insulted you by calling you cops (i know i would be if someone called me a cop right now) but whos side are you realy on? the dead innocent biker or the stupid ignorant retard of a lame excuse for tax collector cop?

[yorkshire raceramesh]

Thing is, we are used to joe public morons wiping us out on a daily basis, but you expect a higher standard from the cops. I personally have been u-turned on several times, AND, NEVER as the cop put lights/siren on until AFTER he's turned and dissapeared into the distance. Mind you, did get my own back, drove HARD into back of an unmarked cop who was parked round a blind corner on double yellow lines. Good job I was driving the ute with a big winch on the front!!

[terbang]

I'm sure Ixion wouldn't actually just make stuff up, would be rather damaging to his credibility given his position. I'm sure he will be producing the figures shortly so we can see the full horror of the endemic of Police slaying innocent motorcyclists.

So by that am I to assume no lessons were learnt from the Buller gorge incident and that we need an endemic slaying before any measures are put in place?
How can you defend such ridiculous and senseless acts by any organization, let alone one that should know a lot better?

[Crasherfromwayback]

You are perceived by most as professional road users.

Only the 'most' that haven't a fucking clue in the first place. The same 'most' that think all bike riders are dangerous idiots.

[scumdog]

What are you two cops or something (you and Scumdog)?!?!

I dont know you guys so sorry if i insulted you by calling you cops (i know i would be if someone called me a cop right now) but whos side are you realy on? the dead innocent biker or the stupid ignorant retard of a lame excuse for tax collector cop?

Mwahahahahahahhahaa........:whistle:

[98tls]

Does anyone know what speed the guy on the bike was doing?i dont but fwiw if a car was doing 150 kms in front of me then to be honest i would use that as a chance to stretch my legs as if there was a cop in the vicinity chances are hes going to get the car on his radar first.Dunno, just a thought.

[Ixion]

I just measured it on the map, using the map reference posted below. You can use the side street sign as a marker. It make it around 70 meters to the crown of the hill (it's quite a gentle brow, so probably 50 metres to the point where it slopes down).

[Max Preload]

Would of been very interesting to see a Fully loaded Milk Tanker hitting that Police car with 27500ltrs of milk on board.

Mmmmmm... chocolate milk...

[Elysium]

Mwahahahahahahhahaa........:whistle:

Scumdog seems to come across as a person with a police record then a police officer. :laugh:

[Bald Eagle]

The police hierarchy and Stoney were just interviewed on National Radio (http://static.radionz.net.nz/assets/audio_item/0019/2271052/ckpt-20100419-1707-Bikers_say_motorcyclist_had_no_chance-m048.asx) . Great presentation Stoney..... and the police spokesman came across like a cornered rat, especially as the interviewer was in like a big dog. 50-60 metres from the brow of a blind brow :shit: the cop needs stringing up :2guns:

Can't play on the mac anyone got an mp3 version ?

[MSTRS]

What are you two cops or something (you and Scumdog)?!?!

I dont know you guys so sorry if i insulted you by calling you cops (i know i would be if someone called me a cop right now) but whos side are you realy on? the dead innocent biker or the stupid ignorant retard of a lame excuse for tax collector cop?

They are...normally of the 'good' sort. But in times of trouble, the gang closes ranks...
We don't know that the biker was 'innocent' as such. Many of us have been known to use a speeding cage as a radar shadow. And it does look like the cop car got shunted round...takes a fair bit of impact for 170kgs (say) to shift 2000kgs.
Still, regardless of what the bike was travelling at, it doesn't excuse such a manouevre in that particular spot. As others have said, a fully laden B-train would not stop in time either.

[Beeza]

Coppers get a hunter's tunnel-vision when they scent a speed-chase coming up. Doing a u-turn without looking and simply trusting your flashing lights to clear your path is gross stupidity. A man paid with his life for this cop's stupidity.

[98tls]

What are you two cops or something (you and Scumdog)?!?!

I dont know you guys so sorry if i insulted you by calling you cops (i know i would be if someone called me a cop right now) but whos side are you realy on? the dead innocent biker or the stupid ignorant retard of a lame excuse for tax collector cop? :rofl::rofl::killingmeThis just gets better n better,fuck me its only Monday.

[Ixion]

Another complexity is that we don't know if the rider may have made a call to try to ride round the back of the car, rather than braking. He almost made it :cry:

The posiiton of the bike wreck, on the uphill side, might indicate that he was moving tangentially to the obstacle. I'm still a bit puzzled by the position of the car. Granted , a hard enough hit can slew a car round. But the panel damage to the car doesn't seem bad enough for an impact that could turn a heavy holden right round and shunt it across the road to the other side.

[miloking]

Does anyone know what speed the guy on the bike was doing?i dont but fwiw if a car was doing 150 kms in front of me then to be honest i would use that as a chance to stretch my legs as if there was a cop in the vicinity chances are hes going to get the car on his radar first.Dunno, just a thought.

Not sure about that, as no more info was given to media (surely it will be disclosed as part of the investigation) but I had Uturn done in front of me many times (mostly by housewifes having no clue that they are not alone on the road and few times by truck) but they were all in 50k zone so had a chance to live but once i stoped about meter away from the truck....so i would say at open road speeds the bike had no chance even if sticking to the speed limit.
Also are you implying that he was "chasing" the car???

[howdamnhard]

The cardinal sin (yet again) of doing shit in a blind spot...
How many times/investigations must there be, before a clear instruction is given..."Do not stop or turn without several hundred metres clear road in both directions"
Agreed ! Makes my blood boil ! Just because you put on your lights and sirens, or indicators for that matter, doesn't suddenly make the laws of physics irrelevant. Hate people who think putting their indicators on ,means they can just move without checking .

[miloking]

They are...normally of the 'good' sort. But in times of trouble, the gang closes ranks...
We don't know that the biker was 'innocent' as such. Many of us have been known to use a speeding cage as a radar shadow. And it does look like the cop car got shunted round...takes a fair bit of impact for 170kgs (say) to shift 2000kgs.
Still, regardless of what the bike was travelling at, it doesn't excuse such a manouevre in that particular spot. As others have said, a fully laden B-train would not stop in time either.

OHH lol, i mean burn...well i hope they are not the "Auckland" sort or hopefully they are the "office desk" type otherwise iam in trouble since they now know what i ride! :D

Well it must suck to be cop trying be proud of your job when your less "grey brain matter" endowed colleauges kill people....

[scumdog]

There's an awful lot of people who seem to know a lot about cop training and procedures and mind sets etc.

And an awful lot that know what the cop 'should' have done (or more what he should NOT have done).

There's a Police College in dire need of trainers that can impart that sort of advice in the minds of recruits..Join up, tell 'em, save somebodys life....

[scumdog]

Well it must suck to be cop trying be proud of your job when your less "grey brain matter" endowed colleauges kill people....

Oh I dunno, the only one it must 'suck' to be is the driver at fault.

[sinfull]

No need to read the rest of the thread after seeing the "better pic" !
Condolences to family and friends ! Rider didn't deserve to come over that brow to find that car in the middle of the road, no matter what speed he may or may not have been doing !

But i'm sure there will be a KB linch mob who will want cop blood blah blah blah , back in your cheap seats ya keyboard warriors, cause ya still a pack of apathetic prats !

The Official investigation and recomendations will go through the motions and the officer may or may not get charged, the rider will be buried and his family and friends will mourn !

The warriors will go back to their pathetic lives untill the next RIP post !!!

[98tls]

Not sure about that, as no more info was given to media (surely it will be disclosed as part of the investigation) but I had Uturn done in front of me many times (mostly by housewifes having no clue that they are not alone on the road and few times by truck) but they were all in 50k zone so had a chance to live but once i stoped about meter away from the truck....so i would say at open road speeds the bike had no chance even if sticking to the speed limit.
Also are you implying that he was "chasing" the car???

Been over a couple of U-turners myself though at low speed thankfully.Not implying he was chasing anything but merely stating that if a car was doing 150 clicks in front of me then chances are i would use that fact to travel faster,it doesnt excuse someone doing a u-turn in a stupid place but theres no doubt that the difference between that and 100kms may have factored in not being able to avoid the car,2 wrongs dont generally make a right.Anyway like all of this thread its merely speculation as we dont know the full story.

[Indoo]

but whos side are you realy on??

The side of basic grammar and literacy, which is why I've been ignoring your inane spamming in this thread.


How can you defend such ridiculous and senseless acts by any organization, let alone one that should know a lot better?

I haven't defended him at all, if the facts are what they appear to be then he deserves all the condemnation he's getting. I'm just curious as to whether or not Ixion is simply making things up or if there is indeed an endemic of Police killing motorcyclists in this country like he claimed, if there is (and I'm sure he will produce the figures any moment now) then there should be a full inquiry and heads should role.

[Foxzee]

Can't play on the mac anyone got an mp3 version ?

I can't play it either..................:(

[Bass]

Oh I dunno, the only one it must 'suck' to be is the driver at fault.

Kinda sux to be the biker too, don't you think?

[Naki Rat]

Can't play on the mac anyone got an mp3 version ?

National Radio page here (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint)

[scumdog]

Kinda sux to be the biker too, don't you think?

I guess.

But I also guess he would not know that.

[miloking]

No need to read the rest of the thread after seeing the "better pic" !
Condolences to family and friends ! Rider didn't deserve to come over that brow to find that car in the middle of the road, no matter what speed he may or may not have been doing !

But i'm sure there will be a KB linch mob who will want cop blood blah blah blah , back in your cheap seats ya keyboard warriors, cause ya still a pack of apathetic prats !

The Official investigation and recomendations will go through the motions and the officer may or may not get charged, the rider will be buried and his family and friends will mourn !

The warriors will go back to their pathetic lives untill the next RIP post !!!

Ok so what do you want me to do genius?? Buy a gun and shoot cops in revenge? .... yes person is dead and cop killed him, and feeling that "could have been me" gives me right to get angry, but fact remains that they are above the law and always will be.

BTW get off your moral high horse...by calling peoples lives pathetic, iam sure you are not doing your childhood dream job while married to lingerie model either!!!!

[terbang]

Oh I dunno, the only one it must 'suck' to be is the driver at fault.
So if another Air NZ DC10 had crashed into Erebus a couple of years after the first impact, it would still pilots fault with the organization not needing to be looked at in any way?

[Beeza]

The cop car was travelling in the same direction as the biker, and it's fair to assume the rider would have seen the unmistakable roofline profile of a cop car ahead of him as it went over the brow of the hill.

Now, if you KNOW you have a cop car travelling in the same direction dead ahead of you, would you really be speeding? Knowing he's got a radar beam pointing rearwards right at you? Of course not. You'd sit on 100km/h.

Then, as you crest the brow, you see the cop car's roof-lights go on. No cause to panic as you're sweet on 100km/h. He's 60m down the road from you, slowing to a standstill and pulling over to the road shoulder on the left with lights flashing.

You proceed at 100km/h, closing what was a 60m gap from the hill brow with each second.

Suddenly he u-turns across both road-lanes. How far away are you -- and closing -- when this manouvre commences? 40m? 30m?

You slam on emergency anchors from 100km/h. If it was a straight dry good tar-seal road with nothing at all in your path, you'd need a minimum of 55m to come to a halt.

You don't have 55m. You probably only have 25m. That's 30m too little to avoid collecting the stupid u-turner.

You're going to whack into him solidly at about 60km/h. It's unsurvivable.

[scumdog]

So if another Air NZ DC10 had crashed into Erebus a couple of years after the first impact, it would still pilots fault with the organization not needing to be looked at in any way?

I guess yeah, they would be needing 'looked at'

But I wouldn't say it would 'suck be them'.

[MSTRS]

Ok so what do you want me to do genius?? Buy a gun and shoot cops in revenge? .... yes person is dead and cop killed him, and feeling that "could have been me" gives me right to get angry, but fact remains that they are above the law and always will be.
!
Actually, they're not. At least not in the sense that you are implying.

[Ronin]

I'm sure there's others on here who are wondering what speed the motorcyclist was travelling at.




Ok, I've got a thick skin - I'll be the one to voice it.

No your not the only one wondering it. BUT, I know the car did the U turn, I don't know the speed of the bike and until I do, and lets face it we probably never will, it's not relevant.

[miloking]

The side of basic grammar and literacy, which is why I've been ignoring your inane spamming in this thread.

Oh so cop and grammar nazi....well that kinda goes well together.

(apologies for the offence it should've said "WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU REALY ON" not whos...but you guys are perfect and never make mistakes let alone typos....OH wait a minute you do!...and people die!)

[MSTRS]

The cop car was travelling in the same direction as the biker, ...

Nope. Bike was following the speeding ute. Cop turned between them.

[98tls]

National Radio page here (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint)

Cant see how the cop came across as "a cornered rat",i thought he actually did well to not say to the stupid bitch "what part of until an investigations completed dont you understand".

[sinfull]

Ok so what do you want me to do genius?? !!! Go and kiss your wife and kids dick wad !
Be thankfull that it aint you they are burying !
Ride carefull out there because it aint just cops doing uturns at the brow of a hill, could just as easily been a campervan coming over that brow on the wrong side of the road !!!

Fuckin two bit warrior !!!

[pete376403]

Call me a cynic but I am sure "evidence" will be found to show the bike was speeding.

[miloking]

Go and kiss your wife and kids dick wad !
Be thankfull that it aint you they are burying !
Ride carefull out there because it aint just cops doing uturns at the brow of a hill, could just as easily been a campervan coming over that brow on the wrong side of the road !!!

Fuckin two bit warrior !!!

Have done that already!

Is that going to make me trust and respect police more? no! it wont....so let me at least bitch about it!

[FROSTY]

Ya Know this thread sucks guys. A human being fucked up and as a result another human being is dead. Underneath a dress shirt N pants can probably buy at Halensteins is a person,it isnt an intant suit of "COP" like robocop.
Sorry but to me it is that simple.

[Ronin]

From the TV

"If we find it was a bad place to turn"..... IF!

WTF!

Seeing the brow from that angle the TV showed it, the bike would be light as well.

[sinfull]

Have done that already!

Is that going to make me trust and respect police more? no! it wont....so let me at least bitch about it! You and every keyboard warrior fuckwit who bitch and moan like fuck, would be the first to scream foul if society as we know it collapses and there were no cops to protect your stupid arses !

[miloking]

You and every keyboard warrior fuckwit who bitch and moan like fuck, would be the first to scream foul if society as we know it collapses and there were no cops to protect your stupid arses !

Actualy to be honest not realy!, have been preparing for zombie apocalypse for some time now....so iam pretty sure i will take care of myself just fine!

But iam sure police will be out there with laser guns and speed cameras protecting us from riots and all the violence!

[Guided_monkey]

The biggest gripe I have from the one news coverage is that again the motorbike was reported as hitting the patrol car.

This automatically places the blame on the rider........ place a complaint via http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/816462/869443.

[Katman]

Call me a cynic but I am sure "evidence" will be found to show the bike was speeding.

I'm sure the fact that the police car appears to have been shunted around by about 90 degrees will be given due consideration.

[Headbanger]

Call me a cynic but I am sure "evidence" will be found to show the bike was speeding.

well of course he was, He hit a police car.

[terbang]

You and every keyboard warrior fuckwit who bitch and moan like fuck, would be the first to scream foul if society as we know it collapses and there were no cops to protect your stupid arses !
Ok Mr Rocket scientist. Police sit around with radar guns and speed cameras, chase drivers at all cost while other crime appears unabated. Yup people are right now screaming foul for some "Police" to protect their arses.

[Headbanger]

I'm sure the fact that the police car appears to have been shunted around by about 90 degrees will be given careful consideration.

How far should it have been shunted given that it took an impact from a 300kg object traveling at (presumably) 100km/h?

[sinfull]

Ok Mr Rocket scientist. Police sit around with radar guns and speed cameras, chase drivers at all cost while other crime appears unabated. Yup people are right now screaming foul for some "Police" to protect their arses.And ?.......