Is it ok to stand her up?

[javawocky]

Just had a great ART day at Pukie - Love the flowing nature and speed.

Anyway, I have a technical question. After watching California super-bike school vids of the interwebs, I discovered the stand up technique of pulling the inside bar when exiting a corner to stand it up when coming onto the gas. Fells good and gives me a sense of security that I am less likely to high side it.

Keith, one of our instructors in group 2, helped me out heaps to get smoother and faster on the day (good on ya!) but he mentioned that I didn't need to stand her up out of Castrol corner. Although I followed his advice it raised the question:

1) When should the stand up technique be used? What type of corners etc.
2) What advantage does it give?

I look forward to your varied and opinionated responses :shifty:

[Gwinch]

Standing the bike up while getting on the gas means that there will be more rubber on the road due to the profile of the tyre and hence, you have more grip. Simple as that. Looks almost comical when you see Dani Pedrosa still hanging with most of his body off the bike because of his very small body mass!

[avgas]

Do it if it feels good.
Masturbation 101 really.

[Sentox]

Standing the bike up while getting on the gas means that there will be more rubber on the road due to the profile of the tyre and hence, you have more grip. Simple as that. Looks almost comical when you see Dani Pedrosa still hanging with most of his body off the bike because of his very small body mass!

This isn't necessarily true; your contact patch doesn't always shrink as you move further away from the center of the tire. What is true, however, is that your suspension will work better the more vertical it is, maintaining better contact between the tire and the ground.

This question strikes me as a little strange, anyway. As you exit a corner, you have to stand the bike up, otherwise you'll continue your arc until you run off the track. For the bike to stand up, the front wheel has to pointed in the direction of the turn you're exiting (ie, if you're in a right turn, leaned over to the right, the front wheel will have to point further right). It will happen no matter what; all we're talking about here is a conscious, physical action (pulling on the inside bar).

[javawocky]

Do it if it feels good.
Masturbation 101 really.

Ha, it felt good to go into the corner really late in the early sessions and square off and sling shot down the steight but it felt oh so much better to carve the curve smoothly and gain more exit speed =)


This isn't necessarily true; your contact patch doesn't always shrink as you move further away from the center of the tire. What is true, however, is that your suspension will work better the more vertical it is, maintaining better contact between the tire and the ground.

This question strikes me as a little strange, anyway. As you exit a corner, you have to stand the bike up, otherwise you'll continue your arc until you run off the track. For the bike to stand up, the front wheel has to pointed in the direction of the turn you're exiting (ie, if you're in a right turn, leaned over to the right, the front wheel will have to point further right). It will happen no matter what; all we're talking about here is a conscious, physical action (pulling on the inside bar).

The bike will stand up naturally as you put the power on, but I believe people like Dani Padrosa do it to get on the power earlier. I think you do have a point regarding the suspention though.

[Devil]

The point is to get the power to the ground earlier. You cant do that when you're still cranked right over. The quicker you can get the bike upright, the quicker you can get on the gas. More applicable to more powerful bikes.

[woodyracer]

From expirience....it hurts less when you crash leaning the bike over heaps.......

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Good technique to lower laptimes by a nano second, otherwise not super important to think about. It is good to get you thinking about dynamics of lean and throttle though.

[Kiwi Graham]

Horses for courses:
Big capacity bikes create lots of HP, getting her stood up gives the tyre a better chance of coping with the forces involved.
Squaring the corner off (Pedrosa style), weighting the outside peg on or soon after the apex and standing her up then gassing is one way.
Using higher corner speed (Foggarty/Spies style) and getting on the gas progressively a little later is the other.
I see it as a personel preferance and either works better on some corners to others.

[Devil]

Horses for courses:
Big capacity bikes create lots of HP, getting her stood up gives the tyre a better chance of coping with the forces involved.
Squaring the corner off (Pedrosa style), weighting the outside peg on or soon after the apex and standing her up then gassing is one way.
Using higher corner speed (Foggarty/Spies style) and getting on the gas progressively a little later is the other.
I see it as a personel preferance and either works better on some corners to others.

You can increase your average corner speed by putting more emphasis on getting the bike turned (upright to leaned, leaned to upright) faster. This lets you spend less time at max lean where you're stuck at one speed (assuming a constant radius corner).

But of course it is dependent on the shape of the corner. A Twist of the Wrist 2 spends considerable time explaining what i'm talking about here.

[javawocky]

You can increase your average corner speed by putting more emphasis on getting the bike turned (upright to leaned, leaned to upright) faster. This lets you spend less time at max lean where you're stuck at one speed (assuming a constant radius corner).

But of course it is dependent on the shape of the corner. A Twist of the Wrist 2 spends considerable time explaining what i'm talking about here.

What I can take away from this is I probably need to experement with both techniques at this stage and see what suits. I suppose experence will teach me which corners will benefit more from which style.

[FROSTY]

THINK LESS RIDE MORE-- Javawokky heres what I saw. Youre treating jennian (t1) the esses and castrol as 3 seperate events and so castrol is a corner unto itself for you.
For this argument lets just say they are actually ONE corner. So your'e on the s/f straight at full noise-pull as far to the left as possible and do your setup-gear position etc Look through jennian till you can see the esses and turn. See if you can cut the grass on the right inside of Jennian. this will set you up for a straght run through the esses and with a small lean into castrol what this means is you are carrying a lot more speed in but its now virtually a straight line so you can brake a bit. NOW you can decide what works for you because you've set yourself up. Following a duck monster and a old gsx1100 through there I think the safest option for you now is to sweep Castrol with a slightly leading throttle and get on the gas really hard as you are all but vertical -you might even find it pulls the bike vertical a bit for you.
On my sv racebike I was turning earlier than guys on 4's so I could gas across the inside apex and be hard on the gas towards the left side of the back straight.
Keeping in mind you dont have HP like guys on 4's but you have a truck load of torque.
Also try slowing your speed about 10% so you are totally in your comfort zone before doing this stuff.the speed isnt as important as the lines
But then I dunno much about goin fast

[Biggles08]

this thread is funny shit :-D

[Peter Smith]

But then I dunno much about goin fast

Classic. LOL.
I agree with your comments about the corners.

With any corner that leads on to a long straight you want to get on the gas as early as possible, so with castrol you can drift out wide as you exit the esses then turn in a little later and get on the gas early driving through the corner, appexing a little later in the corner.
Drifting out wide may make you a little slower to get to the corner but you will carry the extra exit speed all the way down the straight.
And as said in the previous post.
But then I dunno much about goin fast .

[FROSTY]

this thread is funny shit :-D
Keep in mind dude he's not a racer

[javawocky]

THINK LESS RIDE MORE-- Javawokky heres what I saw. Youre treating jennian (t1) the esses and castrol as 3 seperate events and so castrol is a corner unto itself for you.
...
Jennian is an awesume bend - scared the life out of me in the morning with the bump but as I got faster through it and looser it turned into a fun roller coaster. Next time I will try scrub off more speed and hug the inside for a better line into the esses. Nearly went farming over the second apex of the esses when I entered the first one too wide once or twice.

(Not sure who the guy on the white bike was in the fast group pulling some impressively low lap times, but watching him go into jennians was a thing of beauty.)

this thread is funny shit :-D
Never new my dorky riding would entertain anyone ;)


Keep in mind dude he's not a racer
Yep, your average track day hero out to save the world.

[Toast]

(Not sure who the guy on the white bike was in the fast group pulling some impressively low lap times, but watching him go into jennians was a thing of beauty.)


Lanky young guy on an R6? Jaden Hassan if so. 125 racer. Fast little bastard will be a handful this weekend considering that was his first time on the bike!

Jennian is mega fun corner. One of the reasons to go back to Pukekohe in my mind :)

[javawocky]

Lanky young guy on an R6? Jaden Hassan if so. 125 racer. Fast little bastard will be a handful this weekend considering that was his first time on the bike!

Jennian is mega fun corner. One of the reasons to go back to Pukekohe in my mind :)

That will explain the extream corner speed he had over the hill and into Jennian. According to my reconning he was doing 1 03's or there abouts. Not to shabby for his first time out.

Avalon was on an R1 (I think) running about 1 07's, but she was instructing and in a group.

[Toast]

Yeah apparently he was just giving it arseholes from the first lap. Good to start young, eh! :)

Nah she was on my mate's ex-Bernard '07 R6. According to him, she wasn't really pushing it, but no doubt she'll get to grips with, at which time I think I'll retire from 600's, haha :)

As to the subject of your thread, I've raced Puke about 6 or 7 times now and still piss myself off with my lame attempts at Castrol! Follow the fast guys through there and see when they get on the gas!

[FROSTY]

I was talking to that "young guy" -He said the 600 was great to ride and shit load easier than the 125. I think it was him and the guy on the KTM just flying past me. I was thinking I wag going fastish and -whoopsie theyre flying past

[gatch]

Puke is great fun ! Over the hill, blind, under max throttle, into turn one still with the throttle pinned, its almost like a moto x through there..

[cowpoos]

this thread is funny shit :-D

Shit yes!! lol

[Biggles08]

Never new my dorky riding would entertain anyone ;)
.

Nah don't fret Javawocky...its not you or your question....just Kb at its best is all :-)...keep riding and keep asking questions, just be careful who you listen to is all :yes:

[hayd3n]

watch the twist of the wrist two dvd ,
listening to a dozen different ideas is just gonna make you confused

[Cr1MiNaL]

I'm surprised none of the other posters in this thread picked up that he said pull on the 'inside' bar? I would much rather 'push on the outside bar' as this gives u way more room to move ur arms so ur not all cramped u trying to lean off and use ur twisted writst not to mention if your in a right hander which Puke is trying to control the throttle as well. But dont listen to me I dont really knw what Im talkin abt!

[javawocky]

Nah don't fret Javawocky...its not you or your question....just Kb at its best is all :-)...keep riding and keep asking questions, just be careful who you listen to is all :yes:
Well I certainly didn't expect a group hug from KB, but the opinions are what I am after. Had a spirited ride through the twisties on the coast to coast on the last stretch - nothing over the top, but powering out of corners trail braking into the corners etc. one of the guy in the group said he doesn't like to brake, he just keeps it flowing through the twisties. My jaw almost drop to the floor and I had no reply - Braking is half the fun of it!! Each to their own.


watch the twist of the wrist two dvd ,
listening to a dozen different ideas is just gonna make you confused
Slacker - I read both books twice! And I'm still confused. Wouldn't mind watching the DVD now, but probably not as good as the book :P


Puke is great fun ! Over the hill, blind, under max throttle, into turn one still with the throttle pinned, its almost like a moto x through there..
It was love at first lap for me - well actually session 2 after getting some tips from the instructors. For me, its coming over the hill at about 80-90% throttle, when I feel she's upright enough, planting the last 10% and coming over the rise give it everything till I chicken out for Jennien's and grab a hand full before for the 'MX' section. Still not sure I could go in without braking, maybe I'll work up to that goal ;)

The bonus session was lots of fun- CBR chick gave me lip in the previous session by blasting paste on my warm up laps, then again taking me back when I got stuck behind a slower rider over the hill. I'll have none of that! So made it stick. Anyway, so in the last session she did the same on the warm up lap, so I though, what the hay, and had a little fun, sticked to her pace and let her past then found different places to take her back again. We both had a blast.


I'm surprised none of the other posters in this thread picked up that he said pull on the 'inside' bar? I would much rather 'push on the outside bar' as this gives u way more room to move ur arms so ur not all cramped u trying to lean off and use ur twisted writst not to mention if your in a right hander which Puke is trying to control the throttle as well. But dont listen to me I dont really knw what Im talkin abt!
I suppose this may be a matter of preference, for me its like pulling the trigger. It also tends to move weight forward which is probably waht you want coming out of the corner.

[Peter Smith]

Lanky young guy on an R6? Jaden Hassan if so. 125 racer. Fast little bastard will be a handful this weekend considering that was his first time on the bike!


Jaden's a pussy, you can beat him.
Seriously, he is talented.

[Peter Smith]

Well I certainly didn't expect a group hug from KB

Thats Biggles department.

[javawocky]

Thats Biggles department.
Biggles switching to Honda?

[Drew]

Horses for courses:
Big capacity bikes create lots of HP, getting her stood up gives the tyre a better chance of coping with the forces involved.
Squaring the corner off (Pedrosa style), weighting the outside peg on or soon after the apex and standing her up then gassing is one way.
Using higher corner speed (Foggarty/Spies style) and getting on the gas progressively a little later is the other.
I see it as a personel preferance and either works better on some corners to others.Loading the outside peg is a turning in trick I thought.


this thread is funny shit :-D


Shit yes!! lol


Nah don't fret Javawocky...its not you or your question....just Kb at its best is all :-)...keep riding and keep asking questions, just be careful who you listen to is all :yes:Funnier that you two seem to think ya know better. Where'd you finish in the nats Marcus, and in a field of how many that attended all six rounds? And when was the last time you raced, let alone finished worth note Ryan?


I'm surprised none of the other posters in this thread picked up that he said pull on the 'inside' bar? I would much rather 'push on the outside bar' as this gives u way more room to move ur arms so ur not all cramped u trying to lean off and use ur twisted writst not to mention if your in a right hander which Puke is trying to control the throttle as well. But dont listen to me I dont really knw what Im talkin abt!I drag on the inside bar to swap direction quickly, helps pick me up off the seat to move to the other side. I realised how much force goes on it when the bars needed to be moved back out half way through the Hill climb event, from me dragging them toward the tank.

Not sure if I pull the bar to stand it up out of corners though, I'm usually trying to figure out a fine line between getting on the gas, without running off the outside of the track, might just be a slow corner thing.

[Tim 39]

Just had a great ART day at Pukie - Love the flowing nature and speed.

Anyway, I have a technical question. After watching California super-bike school vids of the interwebs, I discovered the stand up technique of pulling the inside bar when exiting a corner to stand it up when coming onto the gas. Fells good and gives me a sense of security that I am less likely to high side it.

Keith, one of our instructors in group 2, helped me out heaps to get smoother and faster on the day (good on ya!) but he mentioned that I didn't need to stand her up out of Castrol corner. Although I followed his advice it raised the question:

1) When should the stand up technique be used? What type of corners etc.
2) What advantage does it give?

I look forward to your varied and opinionated responses :shifty:

I think it's good that you ask people when you're not sure... so I'm going to attempt to be helpful...

Pretty much all steering input on your bike is countersteering as I'm suere you'll know already. All this means is that this is how you tell the bike where you want to go, personally I wouldn't "stand it up" as much as you're implying but everyone develops their own style. While standing it up feels better to get on the gas, you don't turn if you dont lean... so you end up breaking riding into stages... braking turning and driving out of corners. with this riding technique you will struggle to be smooth enough to go fast.

Anyway more to the point... What I recommend is that you brake, and then progressively release the brake as you near the apex, then as you release the brake completely you start opening the throttle very slowly and rolling through as you exit the corner, because you're increasing the power the bike stands itself up... because of this the bike will be standing more upright by the time you're driving hard anyway (hard on the gas for non racer talk). If you practice getting this smooth technique sorted it will feel really good as your bike won't be pitching all the time (weight transfer front to back) it'll be pitched forward on the brakes progressively going to neutral and then starting to squat at the rear as you get on the power. It depends on bike setup and riding style where you'll need to actively steer your bike, my trait is that I get on the gas really early and drive hard... so my bike will stand up by itself and I need to hold it in a bit.

anyway I'm happy to help people that help themselves and want to learn so if you have any questions on what I've said feel free to ask (I'm not on here all that much so may need to PM me)

Hope that helps anyway

Tim McArthur

[Biggles08]

Funnier that you two seem to think ya know better. Where'd you finish in the nats Marcus, and in a field of how many that attended all six rounds? And when was the last time you raced, let alone finished worth note Ryan?

Oh go back and play with the cows!:ar15:

On the contrary Mr Smarty pants...that's exactly why I have not attempted to tell him the correct way of 'standing it up'....cause I'm sloooow and why should he listen to me!:innocent:

[puddy]

Just had a great ART day at Pukie - Love the flowing nature and speed.

Anyway, I have a technical question. After watching California super-bike school vids of the interwebs, I discovered the stand up technique of pulling the inside bar when exiting a corner to stand it up when coming onto the gas. Fells good and gives me a sense of security that I am less likely to high side it.

Keith, one of our instructors in group 2, helped me out heaps to get smoother and faster on the day (good on ya!) but he mentioned that I didn't need to stand her up out of Castrol corner. Although I followed his advice it raised the question:

1) When should the stand up technique be used? What type of corners etc.
2) What advantage does it give?

I look forward to your varied and opinionated responses :shifty:

I always stand up unless I'm taking a dump too, or if I'm drunk as fuck.

[javawocky]

I think it's good that you ask people when you're not sure... so I'm going to attempt to be helpful...

...Hope that helps anyway

Tim McArthur
Thanks that is helpful. I don't think I will ever forget seeing Keith on his GSXR400 riding through Castrol and trying to mimic what he was doing. He set his riding position early in the turn and carved a perfect line right through the exit. The whole way through I was think, ok, now turn - ok now - are you going to turn? Expecting him to have a noticeable squaring off or something. Instead he just went through the corner smoothly and fast(ly).

On less horsepower bikes I am sure carving a perfect line is vital. I think I can learn heaps from the 125's. Probably should pretend I am back on the RG150 again for a while and get smooth again ;)

[Drew]

There is not a "right way" to do anything on a bike. Watch Haga and Spies ride the same turn, you'd swear they were taught to ride on different planets.

It is helpfull to know something you need to work on, and get a few ideas for it from others. I dunno if KB is the right medium for that, but here we are so make the best of it.

[Drew]

Thanks that is helpful. I don't think I will ever forget seeing Keith on his GSXR400 riding through Castrol and trying to mimic what he was doing. He set his riding position early in the turn and carved a perfect line right through the exit. The whole way through I was think, ok, now turn - ok now - are you going to turn? Expecting him to have a noticeable squaring off or something. Instead he just went through the corner smoothly and fast(ly).

On less horsepower bikes I am sure carving a perfect line is vital. I think I can learn heaps from the 125's. Probably should pretend I am back on the RG150 again for a while and get smooth again ;)Hang on a mo here mate, there is a flaw in your plan. Your SV1000 is pretty much incapable of taking a turn smooth and fast. It's not how the bike works, nor is it going to be anywhere near as fast as squaring corners off.

Mid corner speed is very hard and dangerous to increase, (this is what James Toseland said in a recent artical), instead the most time to be made up is getting on the brakes later and still tipping in at the same point, and getting on the gas earlier without running off the track.

[javawocky]

Your SV1000 is pretty much incapable of taking a turn smooth and fast...
So you are suggesting a point and shoot approach with the SV? I suppose this is where I go off and do a few more track days to get more experence trying both techniques...

[Drew]

So you are suggesting a point and shoot approach with the SV? I suppose this is where I go off and do a few more track days to get more experence trying both techniques...That's the ticket man. The SV being as spongy as they are, means they get upset easily. Approaching a corner with a bit more venom, diving in and squirting out is just how it'll best respond.

[Peter Smith]

I always stand up unless I'm taking a dump too, or if I'm drunk as fuck.

Your always full of good advice grasshopper.

[Tink]

Just had a great ART day at Pukie - Love the flowing nature and speed.

Anyway, I have a technical question. After watching California super-bike school vids of the interwebs, I discovered the stand up technique of pulling the inside bar when exiting a corner to stand it up when coming onto the gas. Fells good and gives me a sense of security that I am less likely to high side it.

Keith, one of our instructors in group 2, helped me out heaps to get smoother and faster on the day (good on ya!) but he mentioned that I didn't need to stand her up out of Castrol corner. Although I followed his advice it raised the question:

1) When should the stand up technique be used? What type of corners etc.
2) What advantage does it give?

I look forward to your varied and opinionated responses :shifty:

Not reading further in this thread.. keith has a lot of knowledge.. I would contact him if you need more.. 100%.

[Drew]

Not reading further in this thread.. keith has a lot of knowledge.. I would contact him if you need more.. 100%.

I think the thread starter was after some different perspective on the subject. We all ride differently and what works for some might not for others.

[scracha]

Mid corner speed is very hard and dangerous to increase, (this is what James Toseland said in a recent artical), instead the most time to be made up is getting on the brakes later and still tipping in at the same point, and getting on the gas earlier without running off the track.

Necessary on underpowered bikes like RGV250's though


So you are suggesting a point and shoot approach with the SV?
Totally mate. 125's, 400's and suchlike you have to carve high corner speed lines. The big stuff is much more "brake as late as you can, turn it as hard as you can, get on the gas as early as possible". On a track-day you'll see the high corner speed hero's with pegs and $hit scraping but they're usually not lapping anything near as quick as the real fast guys who are cranked over for only the briefest of moments.

Now if I just had the skill to put that theory into practise :-)

[javawocky]

I think the thread starter was after some different perspective on the subject. We all ride differently and what works for some might not for others.
Yep, got exactly what I am after - KB never disappoints :blink:


Necessary on underpowered bikes like RGV250's though


Totally mate. 125's, 400's and suchlike you have to carve high corner speed lines. The big stuff is much more "brake as late as you can, turn it as hard as you can, get on the gas as early as possible". On a track-day you'll see the high corner speed hero's with pegs and $hit scraping but they're usually not lapping anything near as quick as the real fast guys who are cranked over for only the briefest of moments.

Now if I just had the skill to put that theory into practise :-)

As fun as it must be to scrap everything around the corners I would far rather I leaned over than the bike. Saw a guy on a VFR going over the hill with huge lean angle but he was sitting bolt upright :shit: (I think my profile picture was taken before coming over the hill :) )

With my virgin knee sliders I am most happy turning the bike quickly and kissing the mirror - so to speak - on the way out. I suppose that will define my style until I get more confident tilting her over.

[Drew]

(I think my profile picture was taken before coming over the hill :) )
.Are we talking about Taupo here? If so coming up onto the top of turn four there is quite a unique corner. It was explained to me my first time there, to pitch in and have my knee down before top. This allows you to stand it up on the way over the crest reducing the likelyhood of a high side, (quite common there).

After a few times round though I found my own way instead when my K2 thou did it's damnedest to get me off with that approach. But my way takes a very different line right from the exit of turn one, than anyone I've raced with.