Wayne Gardner demands immediate TT ban

[Matt Bleck]

http://www.crash.net/road+racing/news/161223/1/wayne_gardner_demands_immediate_tt_ban.html

[Taz]

What a wally he is.

[manxkiwi]

Yeah, lets ban everything that's dangerous! Tiddley Winks anyone? With safety glasses, of course!

[Quasievil]

I fully Support Mr Gardener actually, and good on him for voicing his opinion.
Events with a Death rate like this shouldn't be promoted and held.

Bikers think they are invincible, once they are dead its to late to change their opinion.

If Pukekohe had a crash rate with every nationals round of one or two riders would you accept this as an event............no (be honest)

[Kickaha]

I fully Support Mr Gardener actually, and good on him for voicing his opinion.
Events with a Death rate like this shouldn't be promoted and held.

I would have to disagree and I would race there if I could afford to even with knowing the risks , others would choose not to and that is their choice

The fact that people continue to enter every year despite the fatalities shows that a considerable amount of people don't share either Waynes or your view of the event


If Pukekohe had a crash rate with every nationals round of one or two riders would you accept this as an event............no (be honest)

The comparison to Puke isn't really relevant as the mileage covered at the Isle of Man would be more than we do in a few seasons of Nationals but like every any event it would be up to the riders to decide whether they would enter or not

[Quasievil]

I would have to disagree and I would race there if I could afford to even with knowing the risks , others would choose not to and that is their choice

The fact that people continue to enter every year despite the fatalities shows that a considerable amount of people don't share either Waynes or your veiw of the event



The comaprison to Puke isn't really relevant as the mileage covered at the Isle of Man would be more than we do in a few seasons of Nationals but like every any event it would be up to the riders to deicide whether thay would enter or not

Compare it to any track you like, but the risk doesnt stack up to the gains, assumming you survive which each year a few dont.

anyway thats my opinion.

[Bren]

Personally I think he is right....It is a dangerous track that should be consigned to the trash bin of history. every year there seems to be always one death at least. 227 deaths in 103 years....

[onearmedbandit]

Yeah lets ban dying. Especially if you're doing something you enjoy when you die. That should be a capital offense.

If Mr Gardner doesn't want to ride there, that's fine. But that shouldn't stop others who do want to race there from going.




Bikers think they are invincible, once they are dead its to late to change their opinion.



Do they? I know plenty of riders, I'm one myself, and none of us think we're invincible.

[Quasievil]

Yeah lets ban dying. Especially if you're doing something you enjoy when you die. That should be a capital offence.

Lets have events that encourage dying, who are the dead guys next year, a few low ranked riders in pursuit of some cash.

[onearmedbandit]

Lets have events that encourage dying, who are the dead guys next year, a few low ranked riders in pursuit of some cash.

But isn't that their choice? No one forced them to go bike racing. No one forced them to race at the IoM. And prey tell, how does the IoM 'encourage dying'? Is there prize money for the most spectacular death?

[dipshit]

While the likes of Valentino Rossi, Jorge Lorenzo and Loris Capirossi may have lapped the circuit as a guest appearance... I bet they wouldn't race/compete there.

[onearmedbandit]

They probably wouldn't, too much to risk and their contracts probably prohibit it. There is no denying the track is dangeous, that many riders have been killed there (probably more than any other track), but as long as there is no conscription for the IoM I'm happy for those that volunteer to race there to do their thing.

[dipshit]

But isn't that their choice? No one forced them to go bike racing. No one forced them to race at the IoM. And prey tell, how does the IoM 'encourage dying'? Is there prize money for the most spectacular death?

Of course no one who lives on the Isle minds the huge influx of people and business each year. They won't want it stopped. What do they care if a few riders have to pay the ultimate price each year. Their country would be a muddy forgotten backwater without it.

[Kickaha]

Of course no one who lives on the Isle minds the huge influx of people and business each year. They won't want it stopped. What do they care if a few riders have to pay the ultimate price each year. Their country would be a muddy forgotten backwater without it.

I think you would find the riders wouldn't want it stopped either, if they did they wouldn't be entering year after year

[onearmedbandit]

Of course no one who lives on the Isle minds the huge influx of people and business each year. They won't want it stopped. What do they care if a few riders have to pay the ultimate price each year. Their country would be a muddy forgotten backwater without it.

So who forces the racers to go there? Honestly?

Maybe the prize money is too much of a carrot. But if someone wants to live their life their way and risk it all for some money and a chance to get their name in the record books (or the obituaries) in a legal event then who is anyone to tell them they can't.

Or am I missing something?

[Crasherfromwayback]

No one should be told when or where you can race. It's up to them. Personally...you couldn't pay me enough to race there. But I need runoff.

[onearmedbandit]

Should we also ban paragliding and parachuting? In this day and age of safety precautions why are peole still throwing themselves out of perfectly good planes or strapping a metal frame with some fabric to their back and jumping off cliffs? This should have been banned years ago. But I'm sure the companies that run these events don't care if a few pay the ultimate price so they can keep making money.

[Kickaha]

Maybe the prize money is too much of a carrot.

I'd quite happily forego any prize money I might make to race there

I can think of two KB members both who had huge accidents there who have both said they would go back, they would be more aware of the risks than any of us

[dipshit]

but as long as there is no conscription for the IoM I'm happy for those that volunteer to race there to do their thing.

Me too. I love watching it on TV... if only for the sheer lunacy of seeing a bike doing 170 mph down a bumpy street with stone houses on either side!

If riders want to risk killing themselves... who cares.

Though overall it's probably not a good look for motorcycling in this day and age. Probably Gardner's point.

[onearmedbandit]

Motorcycling has always been considered a dangerous activity. It's nothing new. What is new however is people wanting to stop others from <s>risking</s> living their lives the way they want to. Imagine if the Wright brothers announced today they were intending on developing powered flight? They would be shut down by every bleeding heart liberal, painted as idiotic risk takers, and lambasted for risking their lives when they have families to look after. Imagine if motorcycles where invented today. They wouldn't make it past the planning process.

[edit] Before anyone thinks I'm saying it's okay for anyone to do whatever they want etc, I'm talking in context of the subject at hand.

[Edbear]

No one should be told when or where you can race. It's up to them. Personally...you couldn't pay me enough to race there. But I need runoff.

I agree. The TT is an Icon and I can understand why they want it to continue. I've made the comment elsewhere that we should weigh the risks, but I won't repeat the other thread here.

The problem I feel, is not so much a newby issue, - plenty of experienced rider's have crashed - as the fact that the course was never developed as a race circuit and with modern bikes tripling the max speeds of the original racers the margin for error has become almost nil. Yes the brakes and handling have advanced but the lack of room negates that and pure physics rules in the end.
Even purpose built race tracks are being redesigned and upgraded to handle the increased speeds and faster lap times of modern bikes and cars, but the IoM TTcircuit is very limited as to what they can do there.

For me, as for you, the risks are too great. Others see it differently and are prepared to accept the risks. That is their choice. The problem is going to come when someone seeks to hold the IoM organisers responsible or a public outcry rises up.

We look at Paeroa and Wanganui circuits and they too, carry increased risks compared with a purpose designed race track, but the speeds are also lower at these events.

[Quasievil]

how does the IoM 'encourage dying'?

By Providing an unsafe racing track


Should we also ban paragliding and parachuting?

No Because there isnt a event where multi deaths occur each year, every year




If riders want to risk killing themselves... who cares.



I Care alot
Bikers are a bunch of selfish pricks especially when it comes to racing, there is a bigger picture here , ask Paul and Shauns partners how they feel about it

[Kickaha]

ask Paul and Shauns partners how they feel about it

Yet Shaun still said he would be going back

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/10/deaths-during-running-is-exercise-safe.html

Deaths per million hours:

Skydiving - 128.71
General Flying - 15.58
Motorcycling - 8.80
Scuba Diving - 1.98
Swimming (presumably competitive) - 1.07
Snowmobiling - 0.88
Motoring - 0.47
Water skiing - 0.28
Bicycling - 0.26
Airline Flying 0.15
Hunting 0.08


Running? Depending on which number you believe, the risk during marathons is between 1.8 and 2 deaths per million hours, so it's around the same as scuba diving.

[onearmedbandit]

I give up. Lets stop everybody from doing risky activities, doesn't bother me because I'm going to be rich. I'm opening a cotton wool company, I'll be a gajillionaire. And then I'll buy up land with race tracks, get me a collection of ex-F1 cars and race bikes, invite me friends over and experience life. I know, I know, unlike everyone else in CottonWoolLand there is a risk we might die. All I ask is that if I have an open casket that you try to remove the massive grin on my face. It might be a bit disrespectful.

[Quasievil]

Would it be acceptable to you to have a high speed unsafe track in New Zealand killing a few guys every year on the basis of a "historical event" and "at least they died doing what they loved" B.S arguments.

Make it safer or close it, infact the writings on the wall, it will be shut , its just a matter of when

lastly Shaun says he will go back, but he hasn't and personally I will doubt he ever will.

[dipshit]

Motorcycling has always been considered a dangerous activity. It's nothing new.

While the benefit to me of the TT is some good TV on a Sunday afternoon... the downside of it is the reinforcement in people's minds that motorcycles are suicide machines ridden by temporary citizens.

And in this day and age of increasing safety features in cars like air bags and stability control etc... motorcycles may be seen as something archaic from yesteryear and the only real solution as far as road safety is concerned is to ban them altogether.

I don't think there is any famous car race meeting anywhere around the world that has half a dozen killed at each annual event...???

[dipshit]

And then I'll buy up land with race tracks, get me a collection of ex-F1 cars

Actually I'll do some web searching and compare over how many years of F1 fatalities equals to one week of the TT.

I think you'll find F1 fatalities are few and far between and are considered a shock to the organisation when they do occasionally happen. Not business as usual and to be expected like TT week.

[JayRacer37]

By Providing an unsafe racing track

Shit, better ban Paeroa and Wanganui, any hillclimb, and any racetrack with walls within 100m of the track...cock, nowhere to race in NZ now. Or pretty much ANYWHERE else.

Don't forget we had better not ride on the road - pretty spectacular death rate there dontcha think? In fact, no cars any more - you could die in one of those. Which rules out planes, trains, buses. In fact, don't leave the house. Ever. Actually, can everyone just gas themselves now so we don't have to worry about people dying??

[onearmedbandit]

Would it be acceptable to you to have a high speed unsafe track in New Zealand killing a few guys every year on the basis of a "historical event" and "at least they died doing what they loved" B.S arguments.

If it was their choice, didn't cost me anything, then yes I can accept that.



Make it safer or close it, infact the writings on the wall, it will be shut , its just a matter of when


And another personal freedom taken away. All because those that can't understand it don't want anyone to do it.

[JayRacer37]

Would it be acceptable to you to have a high speed unsafe track in New Zealand killing a few guys every year on the basis of a "historical event" and "at least they died doing what they loved" B.S arguments.

Make it safer or close it, infact the writings on the wall, it will be shut , its just a matter of when

lastly Shaun says he will go back, but he hasn't and personally I will doubt he ever will.

He says he WOULD...which should show you the passion people have for it. And as stated before - everyone knows the risk when they go - and they still go back. WW3 could be just around the corner and we get called up to fight for the US...how would you rather die? If you don't like it, don't watch, go, or support it at all...But let people make choices for themselves.

[onearmedbandit]

Actually I'll do some web searching and compare over how many years of F1 fatalities equals to one week of the TT.

I think you'll find F1 fatalities are few and far between and are considered a shock to the organisation when they do occasionally happen. Not business as usual and to be expected like TT week.

Sorry you misunderstood me. I wasn't comparing the number of fatalities in F1 to the IoM. It would just be something I'd have at my own track. Although if my friends and I were driving them you'd find the fatality rate would be very high lol. That's if we could actually get them off the line.

[onearmedbandit]

Quasie - How does the Iom affect you personally?

[Quasievil]

All good guys respect and like your opinions to, Im sticking to mine tho lol. I got "a thing" about Bike deaths they freak me out based on personal experience but lets not go into that, but that I think solidifies my argument in my head anyway, but then again, Im going out for ride on the dangerous Hammy streets now so Im a hypocrite BWAAAAHHHH

[onearmedbandit]

Yes all good, no hard feelings, hugs and kisses and all that other Edgecome shit. I understand a little about your adversion to the subject of bike deaths, so respect there.

[Kickaha]

Actually I'll do some web searching and compare over how many years of F1 fatalities equals to one week of the TT.

I think you'll find F1 fatalities are few and far between and are considered a shock to the organisation when they do occasionally happen. Not business as usual and to be expected like TT week.

How many F1 races are held on a 37. something mile road circuit though?

[dipshit]

How many F1 races are held on a 37. something mile road circuit though?

None like the IoM circuit that's for sure.

Well, many decades ago when they did run on such courses and had high death rates themselves. Like 50 years ago...???

That's the whole point.

[MIXONE]

Thank fuck we all dance to beat of our OWN drums eh.
I personally would never have the balls to race at the IOM but would love to go and watch.

[Kickaha]

None like the IoM circuit that's for sure.

Well, many decades ago when they did run on such courses and had high death rates themselves. Like 50 years ago...???

That's the whole point.

I dont think it would be more than 2-3 decades ago that F1 had a higher fatality rate, probably the closest they raced on would be the old Nurburgring

[Grumph]

I'd be a lot more comfortable with Gardner's comments if he'd ever raced there. According to Honda boss Gerald Davison in a Classic Racer mag, Gardner wanted to ride there but Davison felt he was too wild so took him & Donna to have a look. Watched Joey come down Bray Hill, bottom everything out & disappear into the distance on the back wheel - Gardner changed his mind immediately about riding there...
There's no compulsion to ride there to my knowledge.
I was happy back in the day when our regs for holding National level meetings changed to make it nearly impossible for Wanganui to hold a points round - this removed the compulsion to ride on a street circuit for points and made our top level a lot safer.
If your sponsor still wants you there for exposure, up to the rider how hard he/she tries - but the pressure for points at least is not there.

[onearmedbandit]

None like the IoM circuit that's for sure.

Well, many decades ago when they did run on such courses and had high death rates themselves. Like 50 years ago...???

That's the whole point.

To use the old Nurburgring F1 track as an example, the main reason the track was dropped from F1 was because the drivers felt it was too dangerous. With the IoM situation it's not the riders who are calling for it to be banned.

[Biggles08]

Shit, better ban Paeroa and Wanganui, any hillclimb, and any racetrack with walls within 100m of the track...cock, nowhere to race in NZ now. Or pretty much ANYWHERE else.

Don't forget we had better not ride on the road - pretty spectacular death rate there dontcha think? In fact, no cars any more - you could die in one of those. Which rules out planes, trains, buses. In fact, don't leave the house. Ever. Actually, can everyone just gas themselves now so we don't have to worry about people dying??

Zee Germans tried that...

[dipshit]

To use the old Nurburgring F1 track as an example, the main reason the track was dropped from F1 was because the drivers felt it was too dangerous.

Yeah, F1 statistics show that... http://www.f1complete.com/records/f1-deaths/225-deaths-by-circuit

Now look at all F1 deaths http://www.f1complete.com/records/f1-deaths/228-all-formula-1-deaths and all IoM deaths... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Snaefell_Mountain_Course_fatal_accidents

Many years at the IoM could easily see 6 fatalities for one TT.

You need to go back 33 years in F1 to get that many.

[lostinflyz]

None like the IoM circuit that's for sure.

Well, many decades ago when they did run on such courses and had high death rates themselves. Like 50 years ago...???

That's the whole point.

theres a brillant book on f1 on old 50's racing and the dangers called "against death and time". Terrific short read that parrallels bike and car racing of the time, the last chapter is on the money about the risks people choose to take.

No one forces the IOM to run, no one forces the 100's of competitiors, sponsors, crew and organisers to do it. If you think its not ok for the IOM to run, what do you say to people that say motorcycle racing is too danegerous, even on the latest and greatest of tracks. The same arguments come down to the same basic facts, racing is dangerous (to various levels), you either accept it and live with it, or fuss and moan, act like a nana and accept that lawn bowls is the only sport safe enough worthy of existence.

[Biggles08]

This is a hard one for me. Personally I would never race there because I don't want to die doing what I love...I'd rather keep living and keep loving what I love to do....race. While I understand the 'glory' involved in this historical event and the respect it brings from your peers, it is simply put, in my opinion 'outlived its life cycle.'

Many good points have been made why its become more dangerous as machinery has become faster, and these are reasons why I suspect the fatality rate is probably only going to increase with time. While I'm definitely not one to normally call for any drastic action against those wanting to do something that puts only themselves at risk, I'm tending to agree with what Wayne is saying. Besides the prize money on offer there are other carrots like the so called 'respect' you get for entering, pressure from your sponsors to compete, self indulgence and possibly more. Like Quasi said, us racers are somewhat an arrogant bunch who don't often think of the potential consequences of our sport. Another person who was very close to the recent tragedy of Paul Dobbs losing his life there also said something to me that stuck "Its a great sport this is we are part of, but when it bites...it bites hard!" I just don't see the attraction of this event anymore...while initially I was skeptical anyway, it really now has no value to me and I could care less if it was banned to history. I would like to let it be a 'great event' of our past and not let it continue and merely ruin more peoples lives...as it surely will.


If riders want to risk killing themselves... who cares.
I find this post offensive and possibly you were not meaning it as such but considering recent events...I care; I care a lot and see you as small minded for stating this.

[CHOPPA]

I havnt bothered reading the whole thread but id agree with Waynes comments, i cant understand why the event is still allowed to run, in any other part of the world it wouldnt be aloud. Wayne does heaps of work in the interest of rider safety etc in oz plus apparently he has won a couple of races here and there so I think he is more then qualified to comment

[Kickaha]

you either accept it and live with it, or fuss and moan, act like a nana and accept that lawn bowls is the only sport safe enough worthy of existence.

Lawn bowls? are you fucking insane

http://www.sportingo.com/all-sports/a10042_ten-most-dangerous-sports-world

1. LAWN BOWLS: Forget those UFC pussies, lawn bowls is for REAL men (and women!). Going off the number of deaths per player, it is the world's most dangerous sport, killing literally thousands worldwide every year. Its hardcore competitors will stop at nothing in pursuit of victory. If you're one of the lucky ones that escapes death, there are thousands more who end up with dislocated ankles, broken hips, torn knees or who simply keel over with a heart attack or a stroke due to the incredibly stressful nature of the game. Either that or it's down to most of the competitors being over 85 and lugging great big balls around

[dipshit]

I find this post offensive and possibly you were not meaning it as such but considering recent events...

Nobody forced them to go and race there and they know the risk, right ? I'm not exactly going to feel sorry for them. Their choice and they knew what they were getting in for.

I feel more sorry for their friends and family that have to live with the consequences.

It also makes me feel bad for the image of motorcycling such ongoing carnage must produce.

[ellipsis]

....to Wayne Gardner..FUCK OFF....and the same to squeamish types that back his comments.

[Mental Trousers]

People need to stop treating others like they're infants. The majority of motorcyclists know there's a good chance they'll die when they get on a bike, but they accept the risk and do it anyway. If anything, motorcyclists are much more aware of the risks they face than participants of most other sports/activities (there are exceptions such as climbers, sky divers etc).

People who are scared of dying don't enter the TT. People who believe it's up to them to make decisions for others (ie protect racers from themselves) really shouldn't.

[Taz]

I fully Support Mr Gardener actually, and good on him for voicing his opinion.
Events with a Death rate like this shouldn't be promoted and held.

Bikers think they are invincible, once they are dead its to late to change their opinion.

If Pukekohe had a crash rate with every nationals round of one or two riders would you accept this as an event............no (be honest)

I would also disagree. If there were more chance of death I would go watch road racing again. Oh and bring back throwing christians to the lions.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I havnt bothered reading the whole thread but id agree with Waynes comments, i cant understand why the event is still allowed to run, in any other part of the world it wouldnt be aloud. Wayne does heaps of work in the interest of rider safety etc in oz plus apparently he has won a couple of races here and there so I think he is more then qualified to comment

Let's ban road racing full stop then eh? I've been racing at 3 meets where unfortunate souls have died. It makes no difference that WG has won a world championship. It's still the individuals right to choose dude. You wouldn't like road racing being banned would you now??

[Quasievil]

Oh and bring back throwing christians to the lions.

Im keen to see some of that shit !!

[dipshit]

Im keen to see some of that shit !!

Poor lions.

[Taz]

Poor lions.

Hmmm good point.

[Biggles08]

People need to stop treating others like they're infants. The majority of motorcyclists know there's a good chance they'll die when they get on a bike, but they accept the risk and do it anyway.
I disagree completely....nobody that I know that rides a bike (racing or otherwise) gets on a bike thinking "I have a good chance I'm going to die" in their heads. On the contre, most people think "It'll never happen to me!"


If anything, motorcyclists are much more aware of the risks they face than participants of most other sports/activities (there are exceptions such as climbers, sky divers etc).
This is true but they still think it will never happen to them.


People who are scared of dying don't enter the TT. People who believe it's up to them to make decisions for others (ie protect racers from themselves) really shouldn't.
The first part I agree with but the second I'm not so sure with. I understand your sentiment but modern society has certain morals and expectations that we set on people. Whilst most that know me will know I'm mainly for freedom of speech and choice but there has to be a line we draw in the sand if we want to retain our own sanity. To be very blunt and honest, most people (Public) go to the IOM to watch the crashes and people defying death, with some like my friend Paul Dobbs unfortunately not managing to on this occasion. The main attraction to this event if we are brutally honest is to see who makes it and who doesn't. Racers and motorcyclists will see it in a different light as we appreciate the talent these racers have too, but deep down we are just like the peasants of the Roman Empire days, sitting in the stands watching a slave take on a lion...already knowing the outcome.

The fact is, Choppa is right, anywhere else in the world this would already be over and dusted. I personally have no wish to ride the IOM as I did not take up the sport of racing to take risks that the odds simply do not stack up against. I only race street events in NZ to promote my sponsors otherwise I would not do it. Racing in my mind is not about pushing your luck or getting an adrenaline fix, it is about precision and race tactics, both of which can be achieved on a race track with sufficient runoff. Street racing is all about the crashes for the punter, and predominantly the atmosphere / heroism for the racers. There are of course exceptions to every rule.

[CHOPPA]

Let's ban road racing full stop then eh? I've been racing at 3 meets where unfortunate souls have died. It makes no difference that WG has won a world championship. It's still the individuals right to choose dude. You wouldn't like road racing being banned would you now??

What events have you been to that riders get killed every year?????? You have been racing for a hundred years and you have only been to 3 events that had fatalitys? Thats bad but also pretty good odds.

If someone died at manfield or puke everytime we raced there do you think we would still be riding there? Yeah? Na

[Crasherfromwayback]

None. But it still comes down to the riders choice does it not? As it's been said...no one makes them ride there.

[CHOPPA]

I have always been interested in the race and id actually consider racing so id like someone to stop it so im not tempted.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Fuck that. You're going way to quick on that Beemer to want to ride it there!

[Mental Trousers]

I disagree completely....nobody that I know that rides a bike (racing or otherwise) gets on a bike thinking "I have a good chance I'm going to die" in their heads. On the contre, most people think "It'll never happen to me!"

Not what I'm saying. Nobody goes out thinking "I might die, fuck it". But the majority of motorcyclists seem to have a different attitude to death. They don't let the fear of dying influence their decisions to the same extent as your average SUV driving pleb, so the fear of dying doesn't stop them from getting on a bike.

Unfortunately, "it'll never happen to me" seems to be far too common.



The first part I agree with but the second I'm not so sure with. I understand your sentiment but modern society has certain morals and expectations that we set on people. Whilst most that know me will know I'm mainly for freedom of speech and choice but there has to be a line we draw in the sand if we want to retain our own sanity. To be very blunt and honest, most people (Public) go to the IOM to watch the crashes and people defying death, with some like my friend Paul Dobbs unfortunately not managing to on this occasion. The main attraction to this event if we are brutally honest is to see who makes it and who doesn't. Racers and motorcyclists will see it in a different light as we appreciate the talent these racers have too, but deep down we are just like the peasants of the Roman Empire days, sitting in the stands watching a slave take on a lion...already knowing the outcome.

The fact is, Choppa is right, anywhere else in the world this would already be over and dusted. I personally have no wish to ride the IOM as I did not take up the sport of racing to take risks that the odds simply do not stack up against. I only race street events in NZ to promote my sponsors otherwise I would not do it. Racing in my mind is not about pushing your luck or getting an adrenaline fix, it is about precision and race tactics, both of which can be achieved on a race track with sufficient runoff. Street racing is all about the crashes for the punter, and predominantly the atmosphere / heroism for the racers. There are of course exceptions to every rule.

I agree with you about what the average spectator goes to see. But I admire the guys that race at the IOM. Their level of skill, confidence, ability and bravery are well above anything I can produce and I reckon they're modern day heroes.

[Gremlin]

quite frankly, I am sick and tired of the PC brigade telling me how to wipe my arse, breathe and behave. Stop telling me how to live my life, and focus on yours. Let people do what they want, as long as they are not affecting innocent lives.

[scracha]

Oh and bring back throwing christians to the lions.

Im keen to see some of that shit !!

Funny how you can't get away with saying similar about Jews or Muslims?

Oh....IOM thing. It's the rider's choice. Do we ban base jumping, cycling, horse-riding etc as they're all high risk sports? Just because someone's competed at the top level in a given sport doesn't necessary make their opinion on the matter any more important than other competitors. It's a slippery path to go down when we start limiting other people's choice of activities in case they seriously injure or kill themselves. Oh wait....ACC have done that....fuck.

[jonbuoy]

Two people killed road racing on the IOM, 7 people on average killed on the roads in the UK every day. Every year people bleat about banning the TT - Its up to the competitors to decide when its too dangerous.

[Quasievil]

Two people killed road racing on the IOM, 7 people on average killed on the roads in the UK every day. Every year people bleat about banning the TT - Its up to the competitors to decide when its too dangerous.

One is an organised event one is not

[White trash]

I disagree completely....nobody that I know that rides a bike (racing or otherwise) gets on a bike thinking "I have a good chance I'm going to die" in their heads. On the contre, most people think "It'll never happen to me!"

This is true but they still think it will never happen to them.

The first part I agree with but the second I'm not so sure with. I understand your sentiment but modern society has certain morals and expectations that we set on people. Whilst most that know me will know I'm mainly for freedom of speech and choice but there has to be a line we draw in the sand if we want to retain our own sanity. To be very blunt and honest, most people (Public) go to the IOM to watch the crashes and people defying death, with some like my friend Paul Dobbs unfortunately not managing to on this occasion. The main attraction to this event if we are brutally honest is to see who makes it and who doesn't. Racers and motorcyclists will see it in a different light as we appreciate the talent these racers have too, but deep down we are just like the peasants of the Roman Empire days, sitting in the stands watching a slave take on a lion...already knowing the outcome.

The fact is, Choppa is right, anywhere else in the world this would already be over and dusted. I personally have no wish to ride the IOM as I did not take up the sport of racing to take risks that the odds simply do not stack up against. I only race street events in NZ to promote my sponsors otherwise I would not do it. Racing in my mind is not about pushing your luck or getting an adrenaline fix, it is about precision and race tactics, both of which can be achieved on a race track with sufficient runoff. Street racing is all about the crashes for the punter, and predominantly the atmosphere / heroism for the racers. There are of course exceptions to every rule.

You're joking right Marcus? You only race the streets because it's good for your sponsors yet you think it's to dangerous, am I reading you right? Well my boy, I suggest you get your arse the hell out of road racing please for the very simple following reason.

It's widely known that the streets are more dangerous to race on, there's no argument from me. Contrary to other posts spectators do not go to see crashes, they go for the closest racing the country can offer and be close to the action. But the racers go BY CHOICE, i.e knowing the risks.

Now if for some obscene reason you manage to kill yourself there, (heaven forbid), the last thing the organisers, public, benefiting communities, other racers, MNZ and YOUR SPONSORS need is your Mum, Dad and girlfriend being interviewed by the media stating you never wanted to race there but had to for your sponsors. Utter shit. Get out of steet racing now before you damage it further.

Ta

[roadracingoldfart]

I agree with Wayne's call but lets not get lost in the sentiment. Its the venue hes calling out at high noon , not the riders and not the sport.
Motorcycle racing is dangerous but who can state honestly " the track is safe " ? nobody ,
can it be stated
" the track is as safe as we can make it without turning it into a cotton wool track" ?
anybody that gives a shit about suffering.
If you add the dipsticks that kill themselves at the events expence on the Mad Sunday i bet the tally of lost souls is much higher than imagined.

Paul.

[Deano]

I disagree completely....nobody that I know that rides a bike (racing or otherwise) gets on a bike thinking "I have a good chance I'm going to die" in their heads. On the contre, most people think "It'll never happen to me!"


Hang on a minute - what do you have written on your leathers bro ?

[White trash]

Hang on a minute - what do you have written on your leathers bro ?

bingbingbing It appears it's there because it looks cool. Who'd have thought.......

[Biggles08]

Hang on a minute - what do you have written on your leathers bro ?

hehe... touché deano...but trash is right...its there because it looks cool and Ed Hardy used to sponsor me...its one of his tattoos.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch%C3%A9)

[dipshit]

One is an organised event one is not

And one involves 35 million motor vehicle users and the other does not.

[gixerracer]

For fuck sake this old argument has been going on forever I have raced the IOM TT in 1999 and then again in 2000 and hell yea it is dangerous and i made the choice not to do it again. The thing that makes me laugh the most is 90% of the other Irish road races are a lot worse than the TT as they are a mass grid start and you are racing against each other on the most fucked up little narrow tracks you would ever see but nobody bitches about them.
Its a way of life for thwm folk and they love doing why take it away? How many people get killed or paralized from playing rugby every year lets ban the stupid crap game cause people are getting hurt (mind you if I hurt my toe playing rugby for my nation at least I get a good doctor and a decent rest)

[Kickaha]

For fuck sake this old argument has been going on forever I have raced the IOM TT in 1999 and then again in 2000 and hell yea it is dangerous and i made the choice not to do it again.

Was just the danger the reason you made the decision not to go back?

[Biggles08]

You're joking right Marcus? You only race the streets because it's good for your sponsors yet you think it's to dangerous, am I reading you right? Well my boy, I suggest you get your arse the hell out of road racing please for the very simple following reason.

It's widely known that the streets are more dangerous to race on, there's no argument from me. Contrary to other posts spectators do not go to see crashes, they go for the closest racing the country can offer and be close to the action. But the racers go BY CHOICE, i.e knowing the risks.

Now if for some obscene reason you manage to kill yourself there, (heaven forbid), the last thing the organisers, public, benefiting communities, other racers, MNZ and YOUR SPONSORS need is your Mum, Dad and girlfriend being interviewed by the media stating you never wanted to race there but had to for your sponsors. Utter shit. Get out of steet racing now before you damage it further.

Ta

I'm not joking Trash...its well known by everyone I don't really enjoy the streets...its no surprise. Many racers go compete at the street meetings in NZ only because they have responsibilitys to their sponsors, not because they think its 'good racing.' You cannot argue that Paeroa and Wangas is not a great event for publicity for anyone who is supporting a racer! And why is it such a well attended event by joe public? Because the organizers do a fantastic job promoting the event sure, but the real reason is because joe public like to watch people risking their lives for their entertainment. I'm sure you will agree road racing is completely different to track racing for many reasons, but the biggest reason is the surface condition and the lack of run-off. Like I said, I'm ONLY racing at street events for the 'event' sake and not the racing. The reason I don't race at pukekohe is for the same reason, lack of run-off...I'm just fortunate that my sponsors realize that there is not much of an 'event' at puke usually so the promotional benefits are not there for my sponsors, so no reason to ask me to race there.

I'm not saying I don't have a choice in the matter...we all have choices and we weigh up the risk vs return in competing. For myself, I'm happy with my ability to race at the streets in NZ if I maintain my sense of what I'm doing. I will not push myself to the same level I would if I were to be racing on a purpose built track. Everyone has there own thoughts on this I understand and I'm not forcing my opinion on it, I just believe some things run a natural lifespan and the IOM has run it. Paeroa and Wangas has not yet got to this point but should it get to such a point where we are losing at least 2 riders per year due 100% to the venue, I would have to say unfortunately that in my mind this is unacceptable and the venue should be closed.

[dipshit]

Its a way of life for thwm folk and they love doing why take it away?

The negative effect of the IoM being an international event and in the public's eye as it is - must be reinforcing in people's minds that motorcycles are dangerous suicide machines ridden by temporary citizens.

How many parents have forbidden their children from getting a road bike because they perceive them as too dangerous..???

How many law makers and the powers at be would like to ban motorcycles from the roads because they perceive them as too dangerous...???

Could such an event be causing more harm than good to motorcycling...???

[Quasievil]

And one involves 35 million motor vehicle users and the other does not.

And your Point? close the roads ?

[gixerracer]

Yea pretty much, I had a very young family at the time and it just seemed very sellfish of me, if I was single I may have stayed over there, I was the fastest ever newcomer to lap the Island on a 600 at the time which is why I went back because I got a deal I couldnt say no to but once I was there and the deal wasnt really what It cracked up to be i couldnt wait to get out of there.
I do see why people love it as on a nice day when you feel you have done a good lap it is a great feeling but man you want to do some laps around there in the rain and fog it freaked me out lol
Was just the danger the reason you made the decision not to go back?

[Biggles08]

... I went back because I got a deal I couldnt say no to but once I was there and the deal wasnt really what It cracked up to be i couldnt wait to get out of there.

So in essence you are somewhat agreeing with Wayne G then? There certainly are racers that only do it because of the 'deal' and this is a massive (sometimes singular) incentive to go compete?

[Mental Trousers]

For fuck sake this old argument has been going on forever I have raced the IOM TT in 1999 and then again in 2000 and hell yea it is dangerous and i made the choice not to do it again. The thing that makes me laugh the most is 90% of the other Irish road races are a lot worse than the TT as they are a mass grid start and you are racing against each other on the most fucked up little narrow tracks you would ever see but nobody bitches about them.

The IOM is relatively safe compared to that shit. They're crazy, and I mean crazy. They're riding 200+ horse power bikes on farm tracks where cars have to put a wheel on the grass when they meet going opposite directions. And those are the larger races that have tv cameras there, not the club races that are even dodgier.

Gotta respect someone who has actually been there, done that and says "no thanks but you guys keep on doing what you're doing". Onya :niceone:

[gixerracer]

No I do not agree with gardner I made the choice to not go back a third time or many more The deal I got was not based on money as it cost me maybe 10k still but the bike I was offered had won its class at the previous 4 TT's and was owned by Honda UK so thought it may be a way in to the short track BSB thing but that is not the case nowdays and they all no it. I went back simply because I thought I may be able to win a TT race which would have been kind of cool trophy
So in essence you are somewhat agreeing with Wayne G then? There certainly are racers that only do it because of the 'deal' and this is a massive (sometimes singular) incentive to go compete?

[steveyb]

For fuck sake this old argument has been going on forever I have raced the IOM TT in 1999 and then again in 2000 and hell yea it is dangerous and i made the choice not to do it again. The thing that makes me laugh the most is 90% of the other Irish road races are a lot worse than the TT as they are a mass grid start and you are racing against each other on the most fucked up little narrow tracks you would ever see but nobody bitches about them.
Its a way of life for thwm folk and they love doing why take it away? How many people get killed or paralized from playing rugby every year lets ban the stupid crap game cause people are getting hurt (mind you if I hurt my toe playing rugby for my nation at least I get a good doctor and a decent rest)

And let's face it, you need is a decent rest, or is that, all you do is have a decent rest most of the time?

[dipshit]

And your Point? close the roads ?

I was agreeing with you and saying comparing a race meeting to the UK's roads is silly.


"Two people killed road racing on the IOM, 7 people on average killed on the roads in the UK every day."

"One is an organised event one is not"

"And one involves 35 million motor vehicle users and the other does not."

[Quasievil]

I was agreeing with you and saying comparing a race meeting to the UK's roads is silly.


I aint to sharp after big brekky sunday

[Quasievil]

Form your own opinions,
Found this interesting.

<a href="http://s262.photobucket.com/albums/ii104/Quasizxr/?action=view&current=IJMS_ArtclLamb_clip_image002_0001.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii104/Quasizxr/IJMS_ArtclLamb_clip_image002_0001.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[Tony.OK]

Ah the PC world we live in.....

Don't like it.........don't fucking do it then! Easy!

No one has to compete, if someone is pressured into competing at an event they don't want to do, well thats the riders fault then ain't it, not the event itself.

Its all about choices.........ya know......those things we are getting less and less of nowadays.

[scracha]

So in essence you are somewhat agreeing with Wayne G then? There certainly are racers that only do it because of the 'deal' and this is a massive (sometimes singular) incentive to go compete?

Nope. He's saying HE made the choice as opposed to somebody like Wayne G made it for him.

The IOM TT will die a death if and when sponsors/riders/insurers decide it's too dangerous and the number of riders decline. Or the IOM gubbernment start losing money because of the bad publicity.

[Kickaha]

Form your own opinions,
Found this interesting.

Where's the competitior numbers for those years to go with it?

[Quasievil]

Where's the competitior numbers for those years to go with it?

Yeah couldnt find that dude.

Faster bikes, same road same human brain is what I got from it

[Edbear]

Where's the competitior numbers for those years to go with it?


Yeah couldnt find that dude.

Faster bikes, same road same human brain is what I got from it

That's really the point. From an average of 40mph to 126mph on the same road. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out it's a whole different ball game these days.

Sure it's a personal choice to race or not and the powers that be will decide the future of the TT based on factors that have been mentioned above, however we should take note of the opinions of professional and successful racers, for and against and I believe we shouldn't decry such when they voice their opinions.

It is apparent here that some do care about the life and health of others and are saddened by what they see as death unneccesary. I enjoy bike racing in general and don't subscribe to the cotton-wool approach but each time I watch the TT I am anxious for the riders who have little or no margin for error at the incredible speeds they are achieving on roads never intended to carry such.

[bsasuper]

I hope he dosnt find out what the armed forces do for a living

[wharfy]

Of course no one who lives on the Isle minds the huge influx of people and business each year. They won't want it stopped. What do they care if a few riders have to pay the ultimate price each year. Their country would be a muddy forgotten backwater without it.


The Isle of Man doesn't really need the TT - It is actually a fairly wealthy independent country (with its own government, police force and currency ) they do OK as an international tax haven and holiday destination (20% tax, free health care and education) - The TT does provide some extra cash for some of the retail and hospitality business.
Quite a few of the locals take their holidays then (the schools are closed) and fuck off out of it. To others it is just a pain in the arse (plumbers don't get much work out of it :) )

Also several hundred riders race hundreds of miles each so the death rate per mile raced is probably not as bad as the average per event (remember there is two weeks of practice and racing) makes it sound.

But it is VERY dangerous and every one who races there knows it - I doubt that many actually do it for the money.

I certainly hope it continues !!

[dipshit]

The Isle of Man doesn't really need the TT - It is actually a fairly wealthy independent country

I found this here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man_TT

"From 1989 the racing has been developed by the Isle of Man Department of Tourism as the Isle of Man TT Festival."

[CHOPPA]

Why are we made to wear helmets when we race?

[Deano]

Why are we made to wear helmets when we race?

Same as the rest of the protective gear - you feel safer so push harder !!

[onearmedbandit]

I really am starting to think we have people on this forum that would rather see a TV program banned because they don't like it than change channel or turn it off...

Like I said, if it was compulsary as a motorcycle racer to actually attend the event I could understand changing things, but it's not, it's entirely up to the rider.

[Mental Trousers]

I really am starting to think we have people on this forum that would rather see a TV program banned because they don't like it than change channel or turn it off...

Come on mate, you're a Moderator. You KNOW there's people that want us to change everything because they shouldn't need to put the bad men on ignore etc.

[CHOPPA]

I couldnt care less if the event keeps running or not to be honest, I agree its the riders choice and its nice to have the choice.

I guess my point of view is that with the world the way its is today I cant understand how it has been aloud to keep running, id say its due to money that it brings in because anywhere else in the world it would be cancelled. If you look at the statistics and compare the percentage of deaths to rider participation its gotta be prob the highest percentages in all sports.

[dipshit]

Why are we made to wear helmets when we race?

Don't tell me some PC nanny is telling all these big bad motorcycle riders what they can or can't do for their own safety!

[CHOPPA]

Don't tell me some PC nanny is telling all these big bad motorcycle riders what they can or can't do for their own safety!

Exactly! We know the risks, should be our choice....

[Mental Trousers]

I guess my point of view is that with the world the way its is today I cant understand how it has been aloud to keep running, id say its due to money that it brings in because anywhere else in the world it would be cancelled. If you look at the statistics and compare the percentage of deaths to rider participation its gotta be prob the highest percentages in all sports.

The IOM is a Nation with it's own rules and laws. It's also a tax haven (tax haven's are automatically a look after yourself cos the gubbamint aren't taxing you to do it setup). Tax haven's don't attract lefties. Because it's a tax haven the government departments that would usually justify their existence by passing, monitoring and enforcing nanny state laws don't exist. They're also big on tradition, the IOM TT being the longest running and the only surviving Tourist Trophy race left ....... there's plenty of reasons.

[jonbuoy]

I was agreeing with you and saying comparing a race meeting to the UK's roads is silly.

My point was everything carries a risk, if competitors are happy to take the risk leave them alone. You all bleat on about safety nannies and the ACC trying to price motorbikes off the road - this is a similar issue but from people in the racing community. Yes F1 is probably safer than road racing just as driving a car is probably safer than riding a bike. Out of curiosity do you and quasi believe the TT should be banned or are you playing devils advocate?? Luckily no one will listen to Wayne Gardner´s "demands", if he doesn´t want to race that's fine he´s made his point.

[jonbuoy]

Quote from Wayne:

“While I never actually raced at the TT, I had a good chance to learn the circuit in the early '80s when I was riding for Moriwaki. Basically there's no room for error. On a course that long, you cannot possibly remember every corner, every braking point or every change in elevation or direction.”

“You also can't control the potential risks - houses, gutters, lampposts, trees, stone walls, cats, dogs, horses. There are so many variables."

Does that quote sound familiar to another activity we all enjoy?

[emaN]

I've been lucky enough to have made it there a couple of times, and had a bike both times.
I relished every lap I did of The Course, especially the Mountain section as it was 'one way traffic' only. It gave a glimpse of what it must be like to 'open her up' racing around there.
I love the place, and would love to be able to do the Manx GP...maybe once kids are grown & left home!!!
So what about the Irish national series then? Ever seen that? Or Olivers Mount? Thats stuff that'll give your heart a wee flutter!

[onearmedbandit]

Come on mate, you're a Moderator. You KNOW there's people that want us to change everything because they shouldn't need to put the bad men on ignore etc.

Yes, true. Situations like that can be very dangerous. Bastard thing is that they happen all too often.

[quickbuck]

Does that quote sound familiar to another activity we all enjoy?
Well yes, but truth be told that we don't AVERAGE 126 MPH!
That said, even at 100k a errant animal will ruin your day.

[Drumboy4468]

Just as choosing to ride a motorcycle is a choice. There is no doubt that the price can be very high but the courage to take the risk is in some ways a beautiful thing.
I think that it has to be a personal decision and not one made by others ( most of whom have not ridden the TT)

[jellywrestler]

If you look at the statistics and compare the percentage of deaths to rider participation its gotta be prob the highest percentages in all sports.
have you looked at the statistics???? there are 600 competitors racing and praticing for ten days, take those stats and you'll find there are other more dangerous race tracks and indeed sports.
Look at Ed Hillary, while alive he was our most respected Kiwi, and still held in high esteem after he died.
He climbed Mt Everest. For a long long time one in four people who climbed Everest died while doing so.
As for prize money the T.T. took the edge off that incentive many moons ago and reallocated the money to start money etc with only the top few getting more for placings and it's not the place you can go out and make a buck for the sake of making a buck as it were
Long may the ISLE OF MAN TT continue, it's the riders choice

[Quasievil]

I cant believe that "most of you" seem to think its okay for a percentage to Die every year on the basis its what they choose to do.

So if we loose 4 odd riders a year in Wanganui or Paeora by your rational its ok, as its what they chose to do, FFS IOM is a dangerous track that is killing riders with no brains outside there own personal selfish agenda on bikes that are clearly to fast for the road/race track available.

[Ronin]

I cant believe that "most of you" seem to think its okay for a percentage to Die every year on the basis its what they choose to do.

So if we loose 4 odd riders a year in Wanganui or Paeora by your rational its ok, as its what they chose to do, FFS IOM is a dangerous track that is killing riders with no brains outside there own personal selfish agenda on bikes that are clearly to fast for the road/race track available.

So using that rational we ban bikes from the road as well as there is little or no difference in attitudes there

[CookMySock]

Tracks aren't designed for racing safely - they're designed for crashing safely, and that one is not.

I won't say what others should or should not be doing, but I wouldn't be doing it.


Steve

[dipshit]

Out of curiosity do you and quasi believe the TT should be banned or are you playing devils advocate??

Yes and no.

I do admire the TT and love watching it on TV. I think the racing there is more relevant to me as a street rider as they are more production based bikes and are real roads with bumps and all, and one mistake can be fatal. It is more like road riding than sterile, smooth tracks.

But in the bigger picture, you do need to ask if it is worth it.

A friend of mine and someone I used to race with when I was club racing went over there and was killed. http://www.iomtt.com/TT-Database/competitors.aspx?ride_id=4373

This is the section of road it happened on... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe7F6cOkQJU

His girlfriend and many of us in the Dunedin club didn't think it was worth it afterwards.

So I can fully understand if it does get assigned to the pages of history.

[Quasievil]

Yes I actually think its an event that should be sent to the archives, its done its thing and Im hoping I DONT know the guys who will die in 11 months time.

[racer40]

Yes I actually think its an event that should be sent to the archives, its done its thing and Im hoping I DONT know the guys who will die in 11 months time.

I have raced at the IOM TT 5 times, & for a rider it is the ultimate race meeting, I know the risks involved, & in fact had a bad crash there in 2003. I have a bike being built up for next years TT & hope to be there, not for the money, as it costs way more to compete than you can make unless you win. I go for the excitment of what is the history, the fantastic track, & the whole TT experience, long live the TT, Chris

[jellywrestler]

Yes I actually think its an event that should be sent to the archives, its done its thing and Im hoping I DONT know the guys who will die in 11 months time.
you're just showing your ingnorance here, it's not 11 months till there's more racing on the 37 3/4 mile course, just a couple, as the Manx GP is held so any scary statistics people have includes a separate race meeting too, run for nearly as long as the Isle of Man TT

[Quasievil]

you're just showing your ingnorance here, it's not 11 months till there's more racing on the 37 3/4 mile course, just a couple, as the Manx GP is held so any scary statistics people have includes a separate race meeting too, run for nearly as long as the Isle of Man TT

Im sorry, If it wasnt for you I would be doomed to continued ignorance.......long live the jelly!!

[Quasievil]

This isnt to reinforce my argument but thought this might be of interest to some, rather I was finding out about the Manx GP

http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/misc/allIOM.php?db=ct

[wharfy]

I found this here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man_TT

"From 1989 the racing has been developed by the Isle of Man Department of Tourism as the Isle of Man TT Festival."

I'm not saying they don't milk it for all its worth - just that the TT is not the only thing they do, and it is far from a "muddy backwater "

[steveyb]

This isnt to reinforce my argument but thought this might be of interest to some, rather I was finding out about the Manx GP

http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/misc/allIOM.php?db=ct

Fuck me!!
That makes for very sobering reading.
I know that speaking with Sammy Fitz and Hayden Fitz's friends John and Mary all from the IOM, they have quite a fatalistic view of it all.
Not my idea of cookies and cream.

[Dreama]

Jeez ... 6-7 deaths / meeting was/is not uncommon. That's just plain nuts.
And what about the ones that don't die .. just ... and spend the rest of their years maimed, brain damaged or whatever ........ it's likely there are many more cases like that than those that die.

That kinda changes the scenario somewhat does it not .... I mean, it was the riders choice to race the place and all, but then who shoulders the burden from then on .... the parents, kids, loved ones, friends and, dare I say it, the tax payer.

In a perverse way it's refreshing that there are places in the world that still encourage freedom of spirit in this manner in an organised event .... but how do they sleep at night when so many competitors are maimed and killed.

[lukemillar]

Zee Germans tried that...

Actually the Nazi's tried that, but aaaaaanyway! ;) back on topic

[Katman]

Jeez ... 6-7 deaths / meeting was/is not uncommon. That's just plain nuts.


10 in 2005 and since 1946 only two years where no-one has died.

[avgas]

Wayne Gardner demands immediate TT ban

Turns out his 500cc bike was actually a high horse.

No but seriously - can some dried up old biker say:
"Ban something I don't want to compete in?"

If you don't like it, don't watch it. FFS we can't all hold you hand in this world Wayne - sometimes you have to be a big boy and avoid certain things in life.

[Qkkid]

Yes I actually think its an event that should be sent to the archives, its done its thing and Im hoping I DONT know the guys who will die in 11 months time.

I understand over the time this event has been running there has been over 170 people die attempting the race.
Blew me away when i heard this..........................
Correct me please if i am wrong? Quite staggering really
Might even actually be higher than this anyone know the figures????

[avgas]

That kinda changes the scenario somewhat does it not .... I mean, it was the riders choice to race the place and all, but then who shoulders the burden from then on .... the parents, kids, loved ones, friends and, dare I say it, the tax payer.
The greatest freedom you can give someone in their life is to let them choose their own exit.
My family support me in my riding. What does your family do?

[avgas]

Yes I actually think its an event that should be sent to the archives, its done its thing and Im hoping I DONT know the guys who will die in 11 months time.
Forced to ride there due to famine are they?

Bastards like you put away Group B rallying, be a cold day in hell before you take away IOM, what next Paeroa?
HTFU or don't ride precious.

[SPman]

I understand over the time this event has been running there has been over 170 people die attempting the race.
Blew me away when i heard this..........................
Correct me please if i am wrong? Quite staggering really
Might even actually be higher than this anyone know the figures????170 over 100 yrs = 1.7 people per year. How many miles done per event and what is the death toll /per mile covered, as compared to "regular" track based events?

[dipshit]

I understand over the time this event has been running there has been over 170 people die attempting the race.
Blew me away when i heard this..........................
Correct me please if i am wrong?

That 170 is a 1993 number.

In the 17 years till now the number has risen to 237.

[Biggles08]

The greatest freedom you can give someone in their life is to let them choose their own exit.

That's rhetorical Bullshit avgas... Freedom is so much more than 'choosing ones death' and this tells me you take your freedom with contempt. Freedom of speech and self are certainly important, possibly the most important thing that we are likely to have to stand against in our lives; but with it comes responsibilities to our community. Like was insinuated earlier in this thread...why do you 'have' to wear helmets when we race or ride on the road? Are they taking away my freedom by insisting I do this? What if I want to race in my t-shirt and shorts? Should I be allowed? Of course not...Its all about moral standards of our society of the day...there are levels of acceptable 'freedom' for all of us but conversely, unacceptable levels according to our cumulative morals.

[Oscar]

Any event with an average death rate is a tragedy.
This event has averaged two competitors and three spectators a year for over a hundred years.

Of course it should be banned, it does absolutely nothing for Motorcycle Racing except killing fine riders and reinforcing bad stereotypes. And don't give me that bollox about taking the risk out of life - there is a big difference between risk & certainty and a fine line between bravery & foolishness.

If it was anywhere else in the world, it would have gone years ago.
As an event, it means nothing.

[Biggles08]

As an event, it means nothing.

I think that is a bit harsh...as it is the beginnings of modern road racing we have now...it does mean something... but I believe it is too dangerous to be a viable ongoing race event and it is only a matter of time before it is canned in its current form... like it or not.

[avgas]

Should I be allowed?
Of course you should - You should be able to do what ever the fuck you want with you life so long as it does not cost others. Take from that what you will. But I notice that you are a racer - do you think racing should be banned? I mean people get hurt and die every year - its bloody dangerous. I am yet to see a single racer get away 'scot free' from their racing career.
I take the approach - if you want to race, that is your choice, it is my choice as a spectator to watch you at the track. If you came off, died, your bike flew through the air and killed me - was this your fault? was this my fault? or did we both choose what was going to happen.
The world is a scary place - the decisions you make determine where you step off.

[avgas]

it does absolutely nothing for Motorcycle Racing except killing fine riders
Every field must have a process of elimination. We just happen to have chosen a sport that kills.
No one forces for riders to compete.
Its not a game of Russian roulette.

[Biggles08]

Of course you should - You should be able to do what ever the fuck you want with you life so long as it does not cost others. Take from that what you will. But I notice that you are a racer - do you think racing should be banned? I mean people get hurt and die every year - its bloody dangerous. I am yet to see a single racer get away 'scot free' from their racing career.
I take the approach - if you want to race, that is your choice, it is my choice as a spectator to watch you at the track. If you came off, died, your bike flew through the air and killed me - was this your fault? was this my fault? or did we both choose what was going to happen.
The world is a scary place - the decisions you make determine where you step off.

I disagree and would be horrified at any organization for allowing such a fool to get anywhere near a track to race. To answer your other questions re-read my first response to you...its all about balancing 'free choice' and 'moral acceptability of risk.' Depending on our view of life, our cultural morals that we are all part of and the tolerance of the rest of the world - this will produce a acceptable level of entertainment vs mortality. Personally, I understand that the sport I'm involved with carries with it a certain level of risk with it, but in fact after sustaining massive injuries from a 'not at fault' crash on the road, I decided to minimize the risk of further injury by only racing and not ride on the road anymore. I do believe in striving to minimize risk of injury by imposing 'non negotiable' safety rules in place to save those who know less. Its never about removing freedom of choice, rather learning from others mistakes.

[avgas]

Personally, I understand that the sport I'm involved with carries with it a certain level of risk with it.
Are you sure? Because I don't think you really are.
Riding a motorbike can KILL YOU.
This even occurs outside the IOM. While chance of death is greatly increased in IOM, the level of risk DOES NOT CHANGE. You can die racing (or riding) anywhere in the world.

I would have thought that all racers would acknowledge this before hitting pit lane. But it turns out even the world of motorsport still needs fluffy coating.

Also if it were up to safety levels, you would not be allowed to motorcycle race - OSH would have a field-day as you can not remove "possibilities of harm" from a motorbike race, without removing motorbikes. Hell the things can just fall over and hurt someone.

[Crasherfromwayback]

its not a game of Russian roulette.

Not quite anyway...but close.

[Biggles08]

Are you sure? Because I don't think you really are.
Riding a motorbike can KILL YOU.
This even occurs outside the IOM. While chance of death is greatly increased in IOM, the level of risk DOES NOT CHANGE. You can die racing (or riding) anywhere in the world.

I would have thought that all racers would acknowledge this before hitting pit lane. But it turns out even the world of motorsport still needs fluffy coating.

Also if it were up to safety levels, you would not be allowed to motorcycle race - OSH would have a field-day as you can not remove "possibilities of harm" from a motorbike race, without removing motorbikes. Hell the things can just fall over and hurt someone.

You don't know me avgas as I do not know you...but you seem to think you understand my level of appreciation for what I do? Interesting...makes me form opinions of you too... like your inability to read properly!

I KNOW how risky riding a bike is LET ALONE right next to a stone wall at 250kph....that is MORE RISKY in my book than merely ...oh I don't know....riding down my driveway. You can die anywhere in the world but the level of risk does change according to the scenario in which it happens.

I would appreciate you don't assume anymore about what I understand my risks are as I certainly do...which I thought I explained in my previous post...never mind. Re the last sentence you wrote, have another look at what I was trying to explain in my last few posts again....its a matter of balance not absolutes.

[Quasievil]

lol this is getting heated

here is some more petrol to throw at it (

the IOM circuit takes about 800,000 pounds a year so it works out at about 200,000 per coffin, which if you're the organizer is clearly seen as acceptable collateral damage.
(pulled of a blog site, not my original material)

at the end of the day Im right and your all wrong, it will close its just a matter of when.

[Oscar]

I think that is a bit harsh...as it is the beginnings of modern road racing we have now...it does mean something... but I believe it is too dangerous to be a viable ongoing race event and it is only a matter of time before it is canned in its current form... like it or not.

My apologies, it was a bit harsh - it means nothing now.

[CHOPPA]

Of course you should - You should be able to do what ever the fuck you want with you life so long as it does not cost others. Take from that what you will. But I notice that you are a racer - do you think racing should be banned? I mean people get hurt and die every year - its bloody dangerous. I am yet to see a single racer get away 'scot free' from their racing career.
I take the approach - if you want to race, that is your choice, it is my choice as a spectator to watch you at the track. If you came off, died, your bike flew through the air and killed me - was this your fault? was this my fault? or did we both choose what was going to happen.
The world is a scary place - the decisions you make determine where you step off.

Why do we have to wear helmets then?

[Oscar]

Every field must have a process of elimination. We just happen to have chosen a sport that kills.
No one forces for riders to compete.
Its not a game of Russian roulette.

When was the last time someone was killed in MotoGP or SBK?
The sport is certainly dangerous, but the IOM TT is reckless & dangerous.

[Dreama]

The greatest freedom you can give someone in their life is to let them choose their own exit.
My family support me in my riding. What does your family do?

As a matter of fact they don't support me at all. They think I'm fucking crazy, and, from a 'normal' citizens perspective, racers and to a lesser degree, motorcyclists in general, we probably are.
But the point is 'acceptable safety standards' ... the reason why only a select few tracks around the world are used for MotoGP and WSBK ... so the competitors don't die or get maimed to often.

And as to the first sentence regarding freedom, that's pathetic.

[onearmedbandit]

I'm simply blown away that people strongly believe they have the right to insist that others stop doing what they enjoy because of the associated risk of injury and death. These are not children or mentally challenged (cue jokes that they are mentally challenged) adults, but adults who are entitled to make decisions about what they do with their life at a legal event that poses only risk to themselves, other racers or spectators, who have all chosen of their own free accord to be there. I think it will be another sad day for mankind when adults get another free choice taken off them.

Out of interest, how many of you opposed to the IoM are also opposed to euthanasia?

[Crasherfromwayback]

How could anyone in their right mind be against euthanasia?

[Dreama]

I'm simply blown away that people strongly believe they have the right to insist that others stop doing what they enjoy because of the associated risk of injury and death. These are not children or mentally challenged (cue jokes that they are mentally challenged) adults, but adults who are entitled to make decisions about what they do with their life at a legal event that poses only risk to themselves, other racers or spectators, who have all chosen of their own free accord to be there. I think it will be another sad day for mankind when adults get another free choice taken off them.

Out of interest, how many of you opposed to the IoM are also opposed to euthanasia?

I think the point to this thread has become too theatrical. Yes, there is the 'freedom of choice' bit to consider, but the reality of life in the modern world is not like that .... never has been.

The point made right from the beginning of the thread was that the IOM has done its dash in the modern world on modern bikes for obvious and well documented reasons... simple as that.

[k14]

lol this is getting heated

here is some more petrol to throw at it (

the IOM circuit takes about 800,000 pounds a year so it works out at about 200,000 per coffin, which if you're the organizer is clearly seen as acceptable collateral damage.
(pulled of a blog site, not my original material)

at the end of the day Im right and your all wrong, it will close its just a matter of when.
Yeah I have to agree, when someone takes the choice (very selfishly I have to say) to race there they know the risks and I would hope they weigh them up and talk them through with those effected if the worst happens. What I can't seem to compute is that when the "worst" does happen they get a big support crew together asking for donations to help their family. Where is the logic in that? Yeah its a tragedy that they died but they got themselves into it! Why don't they just get everyone that enters to draw numbers out of a hat and then two "lucky" numbers are drawn each year for the unsuspecting two? It just seems totally illogical to me.

So if you are stupid enough to go there and kill yourself that's your choice, but don't come asking me for donations when you end up in a box!

[imdying]

While chance of death is greatly increased in IOM, the level of risk DOES NOT CHANGE.If anyone is wondering what he means, I think it's "All racing carries an 'absolute' level of risk, i.e. death". Am I right avgas?

[Deano]

I'm reminded of the movie 'Demolition Man', starring Sly Stallone and Wesley Snipes.

Set in the future of a cold, sterile world where you have to conform to one way of thinking. No smoking, (how many smokers becry the selfishness of a racer ?) no fatty foods (incl meat), no swearing, no contact sports God forbid. Hang - where heading down that path already. Force fed regimes on the general populace because the powers that be know better.

No personal choices really. No wonder there was a sub culture fighting the system in the movie.

How many NZ street racing events have we seen cease to exist over the past few decades ? Is it because there was a death or another factor ?

Racers from other countries marvel that we still have street racing here cause the PC/OSH advocates have crushed them elsewhere.

So it is a slippery slope guys - today the Isle of Man, tomorrow Paeroa and Wangas, then circuit racing, then any contact sport that results in death or injury.

Ask any friend or family member of a racer that has died racing......that one death was one too many, but do they want the sport/event banned ?

[Ivan]

I actually am anti this thread, the Isle of Mann TT is the Birthplace of all road racing It is the place. If your a circuit racer and stand by that thats your decision If your a street racer that is what you do race the streets it is a track for people who choose to go there there are risks invovled but so there are in any form of racing or any sport Should motoX get banned because of the fence pickets you could impale yourself on? or the fact that it is not a dead smooth circuit and has alot of bumps which could cause you to come off or the fact your jumping 20feet in the air and you could break your neck back etc if you fuck up????

personally I want to go compete in the Manx in a few years time its one thing I want to do before I give it up.

And I think some of the comments are abit harsh calling riders who lost therelives selfious its there choice of sport.

Puke is a death trap Manfield has a concrete wall you can hit Taupo has a concrete wall you could hit head on etc so should we also ban these circuits????

I also feel offended by the post about the riders familys needing money after these things have happened.

I dont think that is the case it is just the fact the guys like Shaun and Paul are both kiwis and there friends decided to do something to help support there familys through the hardships of a time they are going through. I respect people who help others out and feel that New Zealand racing is very small and close knit and alot of people know each other so be it through a simple hello in the pits but we are all here for the same thign at the end of the day and I think that is why Donation's start to help out because I know if I was to pass on I would be honoured if people did the same thing

[jonbuoy]

lol this is getting heated

here is some more petrol to throw at it (

the IOM circuit takes about 800,000 pounds a year so it works out at about 200,000 per coffin, which if you're the organizer is clearly seen as acceptable collateral damage.
(pulled of a blog site, not my original material)

at the end of the day Im right and your all wrong, it will close its just a matter of when.

Sadly you may be right, and then people will start looking at road racing circuits in general or any racing that carries a risk - Grand National, Paris Dakar. Who knows what will happen when the NZ safety nazis get wind of road racing being banned in Europe - Paeroa/Whanganui next on the hit list. How long before governments get together and decide Motorbikes in general carry too high of a risk for its stupid population to take and need to be protected from themselves and banned from riding them??

For all its problems sometimes I´m glad I moved to Spain, people still smoke in bars, in the summer the motorways are full of people on bikes in shorts and T shirts, I can ride home at a 140KPH without the cops batting an eyelid -and strangely enough depression is not so much of a social issue here.

[White trash]

Ha ha ha, someone's linked to this thread over on the IoM forums. The racers, that's right, RACERS are laughing at the notion they need to be told to stop what they're doing and live for, and be wrapped in cotton wool so they don't hurt themselves. It's THEIR choice, you guys don't understand that?

Put it this way, 2.2 for example die there each year. This is tragic, but it was their choice to go there. Why are you dogooders not jumping up and down, proclaiming to all of KB in your self righteous manner that we should all be sponsoring children in Africa, you know one dies ever 30 seconds! Every 30 seconds, that's the IoMs quota done in the time it took you pansies to read this post.

You're welcome.

Edit: Forgot to say perhaps you should be asking Joey Dunlops wife or David Jefferies missus or Robert Holdens or Gus Scotts family and colleagues if this event should be banned. They'll all tell you exactly the same thing and laugh in your face.

[Oscar]

Ha ha ha, someone's linked to this thread over on the IoM forums. The racers, that's right, RACERS are laughing at the notion they need to be told to stop what they're doing and live for, and be wrapped in cotton wool so they don't hurt themselves. It's THEIR choice, you guys don't understand that?

Put it this way, 2.2 for example die there each year. This is tragic, but it was their choice to go there. Why are you dogooders not jumping up and down, proclaiming to all of KB in your self righteous manner that we should all be sponsoring children in Africa, you know one dies ever 30 seconds! Every 30 seconds, that's the IoMs quota done in the time it took you pansies to read this post.

You're welcome.

You're not big on logic, are you?

[Biggles08]

I'm reminded of the movie 'Demolition Man', starring Sly Stallone and Wesley Snipes.

Set in the future of a cold, sterile world where you have to conform to one way of thinking. No smoking, (how many smokers becry the selfishness of a racer ?) no fatty foods (incl meat), no swearing, no contact sports God forbid. Hang - where heading down that path already. Force fed regimes on the general populace because the powers that be know better.



No personal choices really. No wonder there was a sub culture fighting the system in the movie.

How many NZ street racing events have we seen cease to exist over the past few decades ? Is it because there was a death or another factor ?

Racers from other countries marvel that we still have street racing here cause the PC/OSH advocates have crushed them elsewhere.

So it is a slippery slope guys - today the Isle of Man, tomorrow Paeroa and Wangas, then circuit racing, then any contact sport that results in death or injury.

Ask any friend or family member of a racer that has died racing......that one death was one too many, but do they want the sport/event banned ?
LOL....that is possibly in my 'top ten movies of all time' its f$%kin funny shit!! "Whats the sea shells for?"

Anyway, whilst I agree with your sentiment and I also hate people encroaching on civil rights and my free choice....like I keep hammering on, its not an absolute, its a matter of balance. Times change and so does technology. Racing as we know it today only ever happened because originally there was no other places to race apart from on the roads (or beaches). Propose built circuits were then built. Machines were improved in speed and handling. I think its just progress Deano...some will disagree.

As far as the thin edge of the wedge theory goes, if we were losing anyone at the street races held here in NZ on a regular occurrence like the IOM, I can guarantee it would most definitely be canned. I would also agree that it should be IF we had a tally like the IOM has. As it stands, Paeroa, whangas etc are nowhere close to being as dangerous as IOM so no, they shouldn't be stopped...but if technology continues to advance machinery to a level where it becomes unrealistic to expect anything other than fatalities, it should go IMHO.

[White trash]

Here's another stat.

In the past three years, we've had four dead in our summer "season" of racing. One at Paeroa this year. Two at Pukekohe two years back. Another one the year before.

With 100 entrants max at each of those events? run over either one or two days? Each competitor runs a max of 250km over the weekend? Now which events have the shocking safety record? No way you'll catch me racing at an NZ road race event, that's fucking suicide. No wonder Sue's happy I'm not racing anymore.

[White trash]

You're not big on logic, are you?

Not often but have a look at my last post, full of logic.

[SWERVE]

True.......... if the IOM is stopped because of the fatality rate it WILL signal the end of all "real road racing" throughout the globe(and as we are one of the few places left) we will suffer.
No one is forced to ride such circuits..... once it stopped being part of the F1 calender the IOM became a race of choice for most (as many top racers have a clause forbidding them in their contract)
It is the " Mecca" for watching one of the few remainig "pure adrenelin" sporting events.
I have a best mate in OZ who crashed in the senior TT in 96 ......... was air-lifted to Liverpool royal infirmary... and read the last rites by the hospital chaplain. His only concern was a ride for the following year.
Our team sponsor did Nelson streetrace this year and said the only thing that came close was kayaking grade 6 rapids in Alaska!
Dont take away passion & excitment like this ....................PLEASE.
Sorry MR WAYNE G you are a "COCK"...................unfortuantly a cock that some people listen to.......................

[ktm]

Myself, I still miss the Masterton street races, anyone remember them? Also to Ivan, well said. May your dream come true.

[Deano]

As far as the thin edge of the wedge theory goes, if we were losing anyone at the street races held here in NZ on a regular occurrence like the IOM, I can guarantee it would most definitely be canned. I would also agree that it should be IF we had a tally like the IOM has. As it stands, Paeroa, whangas etc are nowhere close to being as dangerous as IOM so no, they shouldn't be stopped...but if technology continues to advance machinery to a level where it becomes unrealistic to expect anything other than fatalities, it should go IMHO.

The balance though is constantly swinging towards the leftie PC/OSH/wrap me up in cotton wool ideals. The more that people relinquish to those ideas, the easier it will be for them to say the argument is 'balanced'.

[Oscar]

Not often but have a look at my last post, full of logic.

All righty then, explain the relationship between kids in Africa and the IOM.

[White trash]

All righty then, explain the relationship between kids in Africa and the IOM.

Lots of kids dying in Africa, why isn't it a) compulsary to donate to them or b) ban reproduction, they're DYING over there man!

Please try to keep up.

[_Shrek_]

do they want the sport/event banned ?


well said Deano

& does it stop other family members from racing etc...
not from the ones i have meet, they do it becaus they love it,

I copied this out of world news

His wife told the BBC "Dobbsy" was "in his element" at this year's TT.

"I am forever grateful for the 11 days we had together at the TT this year. Without our daily responsibilities it was like a final honeymoon," she said.

"Dobbsy was in his element. He was bike fit. The bikes were going well. The team was like a finely tuned machine.

"He'd broken his own lap and race records. I'd never seen Dobbsy happier.

"He was the kindest, biggest hearted, most energetic fun man I know.

"He was so much more than my husband. He was my best mate."

the way I see it, if you don't like the risk stay off ya bike & take up knitting :angry2: but don't start saying shut the TT or any other sport where people die because you don't have the balls or have lost them to do said sport :argh: rant over :mellow:

[fossil]

[QUOTE=jonbuoy;1129802574]Sadly you may be right, and then people will start looking at road racing circuits in general or any racing that carries a risk - Grand National, Paris Dakar. Who knows what will happen when the NZ safety nazis get wind of road racing being banned in Europe - Paeroa/Whanganui next on the hit list. How long before governments get together and decide Motorbikes in general carry too high of a risk for its stupid population to take and need to be protected from themselves and banned from riding them??

It won't be very bloody long if you keep posting like this. Try something like this instead.
We have excellent circuits in NZ with a very low risk of injury,in fact its safer than road riding and our racing deserves support from the government depts(ACC & DoL) to make it more widely available to the general riding public.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Myself, I still miss the Masterton street races, anyone remember them? Also to Ivan, well said. May your dream come true.

Hell yeah. I won a lot of money there!

[Biggles08]

Here's another stat.

In the past three years, we've had four dead in our summer "season" of racing. One at Paeroa this year. Two at Pukekohe two years back. Another one the year before.

With 100 entrants max at each of those events? run over either one or two days? Each competitor runs a max of 250km over the weekend? Now which events have the shocking safety record? No way you'll catch me racing at an NZ road race event, that's fucking suicide. No wonder Sue's happy I'm not racing anymore.

And interesting enough, although not the reason for the crash, the one two years ago was at Pukekohe, a shit hole of a place (here we go....).

I would be interested to know the stats for the last say 10-20 years of competition compared between NZ racing and the IOM Tho trash (I genuinely would...I don't know). This would be a fairer comparison between the two being that it is a larger sample.

[Quasievil]

I would be very interested in finding out how the organizers have (or not) made the track safer over the years to keep up with
1/ the higher speeds of the riders
2/ the modern expectations of safety for spectators and riders.

[ellipsis]

.....many people over the years have tried to stop the TT, they all made the same mistake of thinking they were bigger than the sport. The TT has survived all of these people so far, Wayne and the like....join the queue..., who's listenin',...a bunch of soft wanks tried to knock boxing on the head some years back,....lotsa green soft twats would probably still like to,... all the medical facts point to it being a bit silly and dangerous,...lobby on that one too why dont you....

[White trash]

I would be very interested in finding out how the organizers have (or not) made the track safer over the years to keep up with
1/ the higher speeds of the riders
2/ the modern expectations of safety for spectators and riders.

OK.

They tarsealed the road. They now have airfences and crash protection. There is amongst the best medical professionals in the world on stand by with air support standing by. They postpone the racing when visibilty gets low. When road upgrades are done, they're done with thought towards how it will impact the track. I'm sure the list goes on.

[Biggles08]

The balance though is constantly swinging towards the leftie PC/OSH/wrap me up in cotton wool ideals. The more that people relinquish to those ideas, the easier it will be for them to say the argument is 'balanced'.

I hesitate to agree with you....

This I do feel though falls outside your argument as its dealing with life and death in the arena of what is acceptable collateral damage for present day standards... sure people love to watch IOM, but the fact is the main reason for this is because Joe Public see these riders in the same light as the Roman peasants viewed the gladiators....as expendable. I know motorcyclist's see more than this but the truth remains, the stats simply (unfortunately) do not stack up in favor of it continuing. Put it this way, how many deaths per event is too many for it to continue every year? 10? 20? 50? You see my point...its much like "everyone has a price." Its just a matter of what that price is.

[Oscar]

Lots of kids dying in Africa, why isn't it a) compulsary to donate to them or b) ban reproduction, they're DYING over there man!

Please try to keep up.

I think to fully appreciate your argument, I need to take the same drugs you're apparently scarfing by the handful. Kids dying in Africa, as tragic as that may be, have no effect on our sport. Racers dying on the IOM, do - they encourage any two-bit politician who scans the daily rag to have an opinion on us, and it's never a good one.

To put it another way, how long do think Motorcycle Racing would last in this country if we killed five people a year?

[roadracingoldfart]

Hell yeah. I won a lot of money there!


Yer well chook chasers are hard to pass Pete lol.
It was a great track , but only Trailbikes could cope with the gravel ot the end of the back straight one yera lol it was shocking.

[White trash]

I think to fully appreciate your argument, I need to take the same drugs you're apparently scarfing by the handful.

You should, they're really yummy.


I think to fully appreciate your argument, I need to take the same drugs you're apparently scarfing by the handful. Kids dying in Africa, as tragic as that may be, have no effect on our sport. Racers dying on the IOM, do - they encourage any two-bit politician who scans the daily rag to have an opinion on us, and it's never a good one.

To put it another way, how long do think Motorcycle Racing would last in this country if we killed five people a year?

All I'm trying to portray is that there's heaps of things that kill people in high numbers, they should all be banned obviously.

But please do explain to me, how riders dying at the IoM is going to impact our law makers looking at NZ Road Racing and trying to legilate it out? I think you've been into me stash already man.

[ktm]

Yer well chook chasers are hard to pass Pete lol.
It was a great track , but only Trailbikes could cope with the gravel ot the end of the back straight one yera lol it was shocking.

At least the speedbumps got rid of the go-carts hahaha

[Oscar]

All I'm trying to portray is that there's heaps of things that kill people in high numbers, they should all be banned obviously.

But please do explain to me, how riders dying at the IoM is going to impact our law makers looking at NZ Road Racing and trying to legilate it out? I think you've been into me stash already man.

The non-motorcycling public and politicians of this country have a stereotypical view of motorcycle racing and riding as whole. It isn't that good, and every time they pick up the paper or watch the TV and see that a racer has died, it gets a little worse.

We're viewed as reckless risk takers and that is reflected in the completely unjustifiable shafting we just received from ACC.
Notwithstanding that, have you ever run a major road race? I have, and even though it was a long time ago, when the wowsers were still in the minority and PC-think hadn't been invented, it was not easy to persuade the City to let us run it. I can't begin to imagine the hoops they'd put you through these days.

[Mental Trousers]

The balance though is constantly swinging towards the leftie PC/OSH/wrap me up in cotton wool ideals. The more that people relinquish to those ideas, the easier it will be for them to say the argument is 'balanced'.

It's the same thing that happens everywhere. If people whine, moan and cry for long enough they get their way simply because those making the rules get sick of hearing from the fuckers. Usual story, vocal minority (the vocal bit, not necessarily the minority bit).

[emaN]

So if you are stupid enough to go there and kill yourself that's your choice, but don't come asking me for donations when you end up in a box!

Ooooo, careful.
Others having a differing opinion to yours doesn't imply 'stupidity' on their behalf.
Silliest thing I've seen you post in a few yrs.

[emaN]

Ha ha ha, someone's linked to this thread over on the IoM forums. The racers, that's right, RACERS are laughing at the notion they need to be told to stop what they're doing and live for, and be wrapped in cotton wool so they don't hurt themselves. It's THEIR choice, you guys don't understand that?.

I bet they are. Embarassing really.
Here we are, most of us never having been to an event which we're decrying and labelling as immoral and deplorable.
Sigh.

[Marknz]

Sorry, Wayne G has got it wrong this time. Long live the IOM TT.

[racerhead]

Here's a bit of a video following 3 riders at a weekends road racing on the national circuits in Ireland.

Theses guys have a better idea than 90% of the crap posted here so far so have a quick look and see whats its really like at grass roots level. And then make your mind up.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/northern_ireland/8593237.stm

Unfortunately for the IOM TT races they get a huge media focus and every bit of bad news gets alot of publicity but it does very little to show the safety improvement side of things which is improved year on year.

And also someone has mentioned that most spectators go to watch the TT as a blood sport and compared it
to the roman lions. Thats a total load of narrow minded sh#t. If you actually had a look at the spectator numbers at any road race event they are mostly watched by enthusiasts who follow all types of motorcycle racing so going by your logic the majority of people that turn up at nationals or the winter series are there to see crashes???????
Think most people come along to watch some good racing and following the sport they love:done:

[onearmedbandit]

Yeah I doubt very much that anyone who makes the pilgrimage there goes mainly to see the crashes. For anyone to say so probably says more about them than others.

[Deano]

I hesitate to agree with you....

This I do feel though falls outside your argument as its dealing with life and death in the arena of what is acceptable collateral damage for present day standards... sure people love to watch IOM, but the fact is the main reason for this is because Joe Public see these riders in the same light as the Roman peasants viewed the gladiators....as expendable. I know motorcyclist's see more than this but the truth remains, the stats simply (unfortunately) do not stack up in favor of it continuing. Put it this way, how many deaths per event is too many for it to continue every year? 10? 20? 50? You see my point...its much like "everyone has a price." Its just a matter of what that price is.

Its all relative as far as I can see. You're also speaking in general terms that your and some others' ideals are the 'norm'.

"Who's" level is acceptable collateral damage - Joe Public, the gubbmint, One ex GP racer ? The racing fraternity is the one that counts.

The number of deaths per event - how many vehicle fatalities are 'acceptable' on our roads. The road toll is low compared to other mortality rates, yet the powers that be still want it lower. It will never be low enough because the level of acceptance will be declining down that slippery slope I mentioned earlier. The PC/OSH advocates will see to it. Everyone has a price but that price is getting more and more expensive as our expectations toward a 'perfect world' where no one should die 'unnecessarily'.

The 'price' should be determined by the people doing it and their supporters. They are the ones who pay the price.

And I doubt very much whether people love to watch the IoMTT because they consider racers expendable. Are you suggesting the majority of Joe Public watching do so to see racers crash and die ? That's just ghoulish. Do you think it might be the sheer marvel of the skill and courage of the racers and the spectacle, the noise etc ?

My mind is set.

[onearmedbandit]

but the fact is the main reason for this is because Joe Public see these riders in the same light as the Roman peasants viewed the gladiators....as expendable..

FACT? Where have you done your research? What was the margin of error in your poll? How many people did you ask about this? Oh really, none? Fuck man that's probably the stupidist thing I've seen you post, and normally your posts are amongst some of the more intelligent ones. Honestly, do you really think people operate this way? Yes lots of people like to see crashes etc, the old 'Car Wars' and 'Bike Wars' videos are evidence of that. But 'expendable'? Really?

[avgas]

When was the last time someone was killed in MotoGP or SBK?
The sport is certainly dangerous, but the IOM TT is reckless & dangerous.
When it was interesting.

[Katman]

If people whine, moan and cry for long enough they get their way

Oh, how I wish that were true.

:whistle:

[avgas]

I would be very interested in finding out how the organizers have (or not) made the track safer over the years to keep up with
1/ the higher speeds of the riders
2/ the modern expectations of safety for spectators and riders.
Ask the LTSA - they seem to be doing OK according to your figures.

[avgas]

Joe Public see these riders in the same light as the Roman peasants viewed the gladiators....as expendable.
There is a saying Biggles, if you don't like sharks - don't swim in the fucking ocean.
However there are people in this world who love swimming with sharks.
They may be crazy - but in their minds they will be thinking "at least I don't ride motorbikes".
Same shit different smell.
Public opinion is always like this - and will never change.

[Biggles08]

FACT? Where have you done your research? What was the margin of error in your poll? How many people did you ask about this? Oh really, none? Fuck man that's probably the stupidist thing I've seen you post, and normally your posts are amongst some of the more intelligent ones. Honestly, do you really think people operate this way? Yes lots of people like to see crashes etc, the old 'Car Wars' and 'Bike Wars' videos are evidence of that. But 'expendable'? Really?

It was a figure of speech onearm, my mistake....it is merely an observation not a 'fact' like you have said. I'll be more careful this time with my choice of words...In my opinion after watching peoples reactions to various events in life, people are drawn to watch adrenalin sports like the IOM due to curiosity within themselves. "How can people do this sport!" and thoughts like that. Like I also said in that post, the one where you hammer me for choosing my words wrong, Motorcyclist's such as yourself, Deano and myself view it different to this "to a degree" but we still have the same animal instinct and curiosity deep seated within us.

Like you, Deano and other riders we understand the skill, bravery and sheer determination these competitors each have and I too marvel at the slow motion footage showing the amazing workings of the bike and rider...but all these things can be achieve without the toll of death by racing in 'safer' environments. Maybe I'm different in that I do not see these competitors as 'heroes' as others do...those that do are no different than the screaming onlookers cheering for their 'hero' to kill the Lion.

Its funny, I get pissed off when people find out I race and immediately call me an adrenalin junkie...because I'm not! The only time I have a shot of adrenalin running through me is when I've fucked up on the track and I'm too close for my liking to crash. I find circuit racing actually quite calming to myself as a person...I strive for perfection in the race (hardly ever getting anywhere near it of course), I am focused completely on what the job is at hand....clinical....as far from adrenalin as I can be actually. Sports like MX show jumping and IOM are what I would call adrenalin sports and people tend to watch these sports because there is a higher than normal chance of carnage. These events are catering for the spectators who want to have 'Heroes' and cheer them on. Disagree with me if you like but from what I've seen this is the case for the average 'non-motorcyclist' attending these events.

Funny too...come Paeroa and Whangas all these different riders come out of the woodwork who only compete in the street events....why do you think that is?

Lets be clear here, I'm not personally calling for a ban of the IOM myself (although I would never race there and believe it has served its useful life), I am more so a doomsayer with a sandwich board standing on your street corner saying "Beware - The end is nigh!"

[avgas]

they encourage any two-bit politician who scans the daily rag to have an opinion on us, and it's never a good one.
Sorry I have mistaken you for a motorcyclist.

[Biggles08]

Here's a bit of a video following 3 riders at a weekends road racing on the national circuits in Ireland.

Theses guys have a better idea than 90% of the crap posted here so far so have a quick look and see whats its really like at grass roots level. And then make your mind up.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/northern_ireland/8593237.stm

Unfortunately for the IOM TT races they get a huge media focus and every bit of bad news gets alot of publicity but it does very little to show the safety improvement side of things which is improved year on year.

And also someone has mentioned that most spectators go to watch the TT as a blood sport and compared it
to the roman lions. Thats a total load of narrow minded sh#t. If you actually had a look at the spectator numbers at any road race event they are mostly watched by enthusiasts who follow all types of motorcycle racing so going by your logic the majority of people that turn up at nationals or the winter series are there to see crashes???????
Think most people come along to watch some good racing and following the sport they love:done:

Would have been an interesting video if my small mind could understand the fuckers! eh hehe

[onearmedbandit]

It was a figure of speech onearm, my mistake....it is merely an observation not a 'fact' like you have said (Actually you said that lol). I'll be more careful this time with my choice of words...................

Lets be clear here, I'm not personally calling for a ban of the IOM myself (although I would never race there and believe it has served its useful life), I am more so a doomsayer with a sandwich board standing on your street corner saying "Beware - The end is nigh!"

In my work, my family and my circle of friends I have a lot on non-motorcyclists. And their views on watching racing is that it is exciting to view, but typically they cringe at the accidents. Not many people I know enjoy watching a helpless rider tumbling down a 'modernised safety compliant' track. The imagery of a rider rag-dolling is pretty horrible to most people. The imagery of a rider doing the same and hitting a wall at the IoM would probably make them walk away from the TV. No one likes to see it. Car crashes on the other hand, now I definitely believe that a lot of people like to see a car slide of the track sideways, catch an edge in the kitty litter and barrel roll into the fence. Because 9 times out of 10 the driver gets out and walks away.

[avgas]

If anyone is wondering what he means, I think it's "All racing carries an 'absolute' level of risk, i.e. death". Am I right avgas?
Yep - A dead racer is the same in any track. On any surface.
dead.
Soon as you jump on any bike there is a small chance - but its there, that you are dead.
I salute those who know how great the chance is at IOM, I salute the fact they are able to stare it right in the face and push themselves an their bikes to the limits when death is right on their doorstep.
Some don't come back, and that is sad. But they knew what was involved.

[Biggles08]

In my work, my family and my circle of friends I have a lot on non-motorcyclists. And their views on watching racing is that it is exciting to view, but typically they cringe at the accidents. Not many people I know enjoy watching a helpless rider tumbling down a 'modernised safety compliant' track. The imagery of a rider rag-dolling is pretty horrible to most people. The imagery of a rider doing the same and hitting a wall at the IoM would probably make them walk away from the TV. No one likes to see it. Car crashes on the other hand, now I definitely believe that a lot of people like to see a car slide of the track sideways, catch an edge in the kitty litter and barrel roll into the fence. Because 9 times out of 10 the driver gets out and walks away.

Yet when there is footage available for viewers it will be sought out and watched over and over again....posted on peoples facebook pages (like the recent crash in the moto2 race this weekend) and talked about...so why is that then? Curiosity bro...its what makes us racers all heroes to some.

[Biggles08]

I salute those who know how great the chance is at IOM, I salute the fact they are able to stare it right in the face and push themselves an their bikes to the limits when death is right on their doorstep.
Some don't come back, and that is sad. But they knew what was involved.

Sounds like they are your heroes avgas?

[ellipsis]

, I am more so a doomsayer with a sandwich board standing on your street corner saying "Beware - The end is nigh!"

......much like someone telling me that their God is bigger than mine...

[onearmedbandit]

Yet when there is footage available for viewers it will be sought out and watched over and over again....posted on peoples facebook pages (like the recent crash in the moto2 race this weekend) and talked about...so why is that then? Curiosity bro...its what makes us racers all heroes to some.

I don't deny that there is a morbid fascination with crashes however I strongly disagree that people are baying for the riders blood or hoping that he's badly injured. To state before that the majority of Joe Public view motorcycle racers as 'expendable' is 1000 miles away from watching the replay of a crash a few times. I don't believe for one minute that the majority of people who view the IoM watch it for the possibility of injury or death.

I now see however that this is the way you perceive things. Do you honestly think that 'you racers' are heroes to some because of the crashes?

[Biggles08]

I don't deny that there is a morbid fascination with crashes however I strongly disagree that people are baying for the riders blood or hoping that he's badly injured. To state before that the majority of Joe Public view motorcycle racers as 'expendable' is 1000 miles away from watching the replay of a crash a few times.
I don't say people are wanting injury or fatalities, sorry don't misunderstand me...its as you have said, 'a morbid fascination with crashes.' But people are watching other people face death square in the eye and get off on that scenario...like the gladiators vs the Lions etc. Its deep seated in most...the little guy vs the big bad universe...hell, just look at the Kiwibiker icons....whats this one for? :jerry:


I don't believe for one minute that the majority of people who view the IoM watch it for the possibility of injury or death. I agree with you...not my point at all.



I now see however that this is the way you perceive things. Do you honestly think that 'you racers' are heroes to some because of the crashes?
I believe to some uneducated 'joes' we are perceived in a manner of defying death and the odds....you really can't argue with this onearm...most people rightly or wrongly think motorcycle racing is super stupid dangerous....and this forms an opinion within thier heads about those of us who compete in this sport.

[Biggles08]

......much like someone telling me that their God is bigger than mine... He is:shifty:

[imdying]

Far from needing to be banned, the IoM is actually ahead of its time. True blood sports are the future, and whilst it might take us to get there (oh, and we will get there), we can at least enjoy the spectacle that is the IoM in the mean time.

Motorbike racing is awesome. People getting splattered is awesome. Combine the two together, and well, what could possibly be more awesome? People love that shit! You don't look up at a jumper hoping the cops will bring him down safely now do you!

Long live the crazy road racers, let your blood be on our hands!

[imdying]

I don't deny that there is a morbid fascination with crashes however I strongly disagree that people are baying for the riders blood or hoping that he's badly injured.I don't think they hope that they're badly injured, but they definitely look forward to crashes. That hope will come in time though.

[imdying]

I salute those who know how great the chance is at IOM, I salute the fact they are able to stare it right in the face and push themselves an their bikes to the limits when death is right on their doorstep.Totally, the only thing I don't understand is how they don't all walk like cowboys.

[onearmedbandit]

I don't think they hope that they're badly injured, but they definitely look forward to crashes. That hope will come in time though.

The comparision to the Gladiators and Lions gave the impression that spectators were baying for blood, in either injury or death. This is what was hoped for in those days. If the analogy doesn't fit, then it should have never been used.

[onearmedbandit]

I believe to some uneducated 'joes' we are perceived in a manner of defying death and the odds....you really can't argue with this onearm...most people rightly or wrongly think motorcycle racing is super stupid dangerous....and this forms an opinion within thier heads about those of us who compete in this sport.

I don't argue that at all. I argue that they view you as 'heroes' (in regards to crashes).

[Deano]

Funny too...come Paeroa and Whangas all these different riders come out of the woodwork who only compete in the street events....why do you think that is?

Lets be clear here, I'm not personally calling for a ban of the IOM myself (although I would never race there and believe it has served its useful life), I am more so a doomsayer with a sandwich board standing on your street corner saying "Beware - The end is nigh!"

The streets are a niche event - perhaps for some it a cheap alternative to get a 'nationally recognised' placing without the expense of doing the Nats. And maybe they think circuit racing is too boring, or their bike can compete on a short street whereas it won't on a flowing circuit. Or they have a purpose built street race bike.

What do you think the reason is ? Because they want to be a hero ? There used to be a parade in Auckland for that, and less risky too. LOL

If you think the IoMTT has served it's useful life, then you DO think it should be banned right ? You can't have it both ways and appear to be contradicting yourself now.


Yet when there is footage available for viewers it will be sought out and watched over and over again....posted on peoples facebook pages (like the recent crash in the moto2 race this weekend) and talked about...so why is that then? Curiosity bro...its what makes us racers all heroes to some.



I believe to some uneducated 'joes' we are perceived in a manner of defying death and the odds....you really can't argue with this onearm...most people rightly or wrongly think motorcycle racing is super stupid dangerous....and this forms an opinion within thier heads about those of us who compete in this sport.

If most think motorcycling is super stupid dangerous then who regards racers as heroes ? The minority that you purport go to see crashes and deaths ?

[Biggles08]

I don't argue that at all. I argue that they view you as 'heroes' (in regards to crashes). I think you need to re-read some of my points...its about the perceived stupid 'risk of crashing' not the actual crashing that makes racers 'heroes' in some peoples eyes...especially kids. This is why I personally do not see racers that compete in IOM as heroes (or any racer for that matter), just racers like me who love a different style of racing.

In saying that, if you crash and come back from it, some people view this fact alone as reason to call you a hero. Look at Shaun Harris as an example... he has competed at the IOM many times yet the one fact people are most likely to know about him is he basically died there due to crashing yet thankfully made a remarkable recovery.

[Quasievil]

who regards racers as heroes ?

Youre my Hero Deano

[Biggles08]

The streets are a niche event - perhaps for some it a cheap alternative to get a 'nationally recognised' placing without the expense of doing the Nats. And maybe they think circuit racing is too boring, or their bike can compete on a short street whereas it won't on a flowing circuit. Or they have a purpose built street race bike.

What do you think the reason is ? Because they won't to be a hero ? There used to be a parade in Auckland for that, and less risky too. LOL

The last sentence is what I think is the main reason...its a well publicized event with great atmosphere...I loved that part of the event myself...but the racing is not what I enjoy, give me a track any day over a road.



If you think the IoMTT has served it's useful life, then you DO think it should be banned right ? You can't have it both ways and appear to be contradicting yourself now.

Come on Deano....don't make me spell everything out for you! I am not calling for it to be banned 'myself' merely stating I think it 'will' eventually be banned...and for what my opinion is worth I think it has served its use in history. Its all semantics really so if you want to categorize my opinion to make it easier for you then sure, I think it should be banned...happy?



If most think motorcycling is super stupid dangerous then who regards racers as heroes ? The minority that you purport go to see crashes and deaths ?
Man...this is getting tiresome...read what I am saying rather than arguing just for the sake of it...I never said anyone went to these events only "to see crashes and deaths." I am talking about human society and our deep seated curiosity with danger and those who flirt with it. I used the crash in the moto2 this weekend as an example of this to make it easier to understand...but it seems to have been lost on you?!

[Deano]

Youre my Hero Deano

Yeah right !! LOL

[Katman]

read what I am saying rather than arguing just for the sake of it

That's not the KiwiBiker way.

[Biggles08]

Yeah right !! LOL
here you go loverboys...

<object width="480" height="385">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OBwS66EBUcY&hl=en_US&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></object>

[onearmedbandit]

Yet when there is footage available for viewers it will be sought out and watched over and over again....posted on peoples facebook pages (like the recent crash in the moto2 race this weekend) and talked about...so why is that then? Curiosity bro...its what makes us racers all heroes to some.

Can you explain to me then what you meant by 'curiosity bro...its what makes us racers all heroes to some'. Thanks.


I hesitate to agree with you....

This I do feel though falls outside your argument as its dealing with life and death in the arena of what is acceptable collateral damage for present day standards... sure people love to watch IOM, but the fact is the main reason for this is because Joe Public see these riders in the same light as the Roman peasants viewed the gladiators....as expendable. I know motorcyclist's see more than this but the truth remains, the stats simply (unfortunately) do not stack up in favor of it continuing. Put it this way, how many deaths per event is too many for it to continue every year? 10? 20? 50? You see my point...its much like "everyone has a price." Its just a matter of what that price is.







read what I am saying rather than arguing just for the sake of it...I never said anyone went to these events only "to see crashes and deaths."

The highlighted section of your previous post seems to contradict what you state later. Or am I misunderstanding you?

[avgas]

Sounds like they are your heroes avgas?
Anyone who knows what the odds are - and tries anyway is my hero.
Sadly if we can stuff like IOM - motorbike heroism will be left to the stuck up rich kids who don't know what its like to put it ALL on the line.
I used to love watching Haga - now he is also a soft pussy. He used to be balls the wall on an R7....ending up with a podium or a wipeout.
Now I am lucky to see him lean into a corner.
We need more womanizing, fag smoking, drinking-too-much-the-night-before, hardcore oldschool bikers.
Motorbike racing is not about legislation, its about the riding.

[Crasherfromwayback]

You guys are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, you're all getting nowhere! There are those of us that think the riders should be free to choose to race there, and those that think they have the right to tell others what to do. Life is full of such things.

[Biggles08]

Can you explain to me then what you meant by 'curiosity bro...its what makes us racers all heroes to some'. Thanks.
The highlighted section of your previous post seems to contradict what you state later. Or am I misunderstanding you?

When you add those two questions together I would have thought it was obvious...but here goes;

People are curious to watch other people put themselves in danger for their entertainment. They like 'the thought' of someone taking on the unimaginable to them....and they are curious as to what makes them tick. Without knowing it consciously, by idolizing these people just simply because they put their life on the line for their entertainment, they are making those same people expendable.

Anyway, I'm kinda over this thread now and have said my piece...take from it as you will.

[avgas]

Totally, the only thing I don't understand is how they don't all walk like cowboys.
Deep breaths before walking.

[Goblin]

You guys are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, you're all getting nowhere! There are those of us that think the riders should be free to choose to race there, and those that think they have the right to tell others what to do. Life is full of such things.Too true! I think Michael Dunlop said it best..."if you dont like it, dont watch it."

[onearmedbandit]

This thread has done it's dash, I'll agree with that much.

Still, I stand my ground that the IoM should be allowed to continue, and that most spectators are not watching because the riders are putting their lives on the line, but rather they are watching it because it's damn good fun to watch.

[Deano]

The highlighted section of your previous post seems to contradict what you state later. Or am I misunderstanding you?

I think he has got himself tangled in the side arguments and off the main issue at hand.

Fact is that there is always someone out there trying to stop you doing the things you enjoy. Racing, boxing - it has been tried before. So many inconsistencies with the arguments and analogies but that's the world we live. What one person thinks is reasonable, others do not.

Whether the world becomes so safety conscious that trees get removed from play grounds for fear of kids falling out of them, or goes in the other direction (Imdying's comment re blood sports) depends on who makes the most noise and swings the balance in their favour.

But if it doesn't impact on you, and the ones it impacts upon support you, fuck everyone else.

Live and let live....or die.

[Deano]

This thread has done it's dash, I'll agree with that much.

Still, I stand my ground that the IoM should be allowed to continue, and that most spectators are not watching because the riders are putting their lives on the line, but rather they are watching it because it's damn good fun to watch.

Hear hear. Over and out.

[Matt Bleck]

so thats it, your all gunna agree to disagree!? pffft!

[Crasherfromwayback]

so thats it, your all gunna agree to disagree!? pffft!

Better than going round in ever decreasing circles!

[onearmedbandit]

Better than going round in ever decreasing circles!

Which is ultimately where motorcycle racing is heading. Ever decreasing circles, until a track is only one continual corner, where speeds don't exceed 15km/h and the track is made of cotton wool.

Ok, I'm taking the piss now. But I couldn't resist.

[jellywrestler]

Totally, the only thing I don't understand is how they don't all walk like cowboys.
harley riders walk like cowboys, and dress like the ones on brokeback mountain too

[avgas]

so thats it, your all gunna agree to disagree!? pffft!
I am surprised it went on this long.
I mean banning IOM.....on a motorbike forum.......I would have thought the reaction would be very 1 sided......
Turns out riding a motorbike has changed in the last few years.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Turns out riding a motorbike has changed in the last few years.

That's because a lot of people that ride bikes now, do so because they think they (bikes, and themselves) are cool...not because they're into bikes as such.

[onearmedbandit]

I am surprised it went on this long.
I mean banning IOM.....on a motorbike forum.......I would have thought the reaction would be very 1 sided......
Turns out riding a motorbike has changed in the last few years.

Yes the same thing occurred to me too...

[Oscar]

Sorry I have mistaken you for a motorcyclist.

Fortunately, I neither know nor care what your definition of a motorcyclist is.

However, I have been involved in the running of a street race in the past (I was on the organising committee of the last Hamilton Street race a loooong time ago), and I have every respect for anyone who runs these events today in the face of current legislation.

I was the Race Secretary at that last event, and I can tell you there is no worse feeling than having a Police Sergeant step into your office and say "..one of your riders has just died, I'm shutting this race down.." Fortunately, as he was saying this, our boy was being revived (live on National TV), by our Club Doctor (who happened to be an ITU Intern) and both he and the race survived with no ill effects.

It is obvious to me that street races are going to become a more of problem to organise in the future and the uncontrolled example of the IOM plastered on the media just doesn't help.

[Mental Trousers]

This thread has done it's dash, I'll agree with that much.

I came to that conclusion a few pages ago.

[owner]

I am surprised it went on this long.
Turns out riding a motorbike has changed in the last few years.

Nah just the peeps that are on KB these days have changed

Gardiner can fuck off and his lackies
I would love to race there and I love watchin. Certainly wouldn't race for sponsors or cash anywhere!!.

I couldn't enjoy something if I were only doing it for cash or sponsors?

[jonbuoy]

I can see why the IOM wants to keep self governing. Anyone who thinks spectators just turn up for the "ghoul show" is mistaken - the huge number of bikers who make the effort to get to the TT - which isn´t exactly a cheap and easy trip MAKE the TT viable.

[_Shrek_]

This thread has done it's dash, I'll agree with that much.

Still, I stand my ground that the IoM should be allowed to continue, and that most spectators are not watching because the riders are putting their lives on the line, but rather they are watching it because it's damn good fun to watch.

aye +1


where speeds don't exceed 15km/h

:shit: No It's to dangerous, I came off at 15km in my drive way, bike landed on my heel smashed my ankle & broke my leg :shutup:

[Shaun]

To all the people with BAN the place replies, FUCK off soft cocks.

Our world is so PC these days, that a man cannot even fart in public anymare for f sake.

Out of respect to the 200 odd that have lost there lives doing what they WANTED TO DO with There lives, RIP TEAM!

You can all sit back and type this and type that, but I know I raced there with my family support, and I know 99% of other racers raced there with there family support, so again, PISS off negative posters, and get back in your soft safe chairs, and have a wonderfull non challenging normall life.

MODS, sorry about the directness, but this shit on here really pisses me off. Delete if you must?

[White trash]

To all the people with BAN the place replies, FUCK off soft cocks.

Our world is so PC these days, that a man cannot even fart in public anymare for f sake.

Out of respect to the 200 odd that have lost there lives doing what they WANTED TO DO with There lives, RIP TEAM!

You can all sit back and type this and type that, but I know I raced there with my family support, and I know 99% of other racers raced there with there family support, so again, PISS off negative posters, and get back in your soft safe chairs, and have a wonderfull non challenging normall life.

MODS, sorry about the directness, but this shit on here really pisses me off. Delete if you must?

And there you have your definitive answer, someone who's raced, won, lost, crashed, almost not come back and knows the risks to him and his family better than anyone else.

Hey Shaun, better look out mate a bunch of people are going to come and see you at MAnfeild and explain nice and gently why you need to be banned from doing what you love and live for. Even though it's your choice and that, they feel you need protecting from yourself and told what's best for you.

Sue's agreed to be there with her Paramedic kit on standby and I've got some people really good at spotting knocked out teeth off the floor.

[Quasievil]

To all the people with BAN the place replies, FUCK off soft cocks.

Our world is so PC these days, that a man cannot even fart in public anymare for f sake.

Out of respect to the 200 odd that have lost there lives doing what they WANTED TO DO with There lives, RIP TEAM!

You can all sit back and type this and type that, but I know I raced there with my family support, and I know 99% of other racers raced there with there family support, so again, PISS off negative posters, and get back in your soft safe chairs, and have a wonderfull non challenging normall life.

MODS, sorry about the directness, but this shit on here really pisses me off. Delete if you must?

Nah Close it down

[Tony.OK]

To all the people with BAN the place replies, FUCK off soft cocks.

Our world is so PC these days, that a man cannot even fart in public anymare for f sake.

Out of respect to the 200 odd that have lost there lives doing what they WANTED TO DO with There lives, RIP TEAM!

You can all sit back and type this and type that, but I know I raced there with my family support, and I know 99% of other racers raced there with there family support, so again, PISS off negative posters, and get back in your soft safe chairs, and have a wonderfull non challenging normall life.

MODS, sorry about the directness, but this shit on here really pisses me off. Delete if you must?

Fukn aye!......................been waiting 16 pages for that:yes::clap::clap::niceone:

[Shaun]

You're joking right Marcus? You only race the streets because it's good for your sponsors yet you think it's to dangerous, am I reading you right? Well my boy, I suggest you get your arse the hell out of road racing please for the very simple following reason.

It's widely known that the streets are more dangerous to race on, there's no argument from me. Contrary to other posts spectators do not go to see crashes, they go for the closest racing the country can offer and be close to the action. But the racers go BY CHOICE, i.e knowing the risks.

Now if for some obscene reason you manage to kill yourself there, (heaven forbid), the last thing the organisers, public, benefiting communities, other racers, MNZ and YOUR SPONSORS need is your Mum, Dad and girlfriend being interviewed by the media stating you never wanted to race there but had to for your sponsors. Utter shit. Get out of steet racing now before you damage it further.

Ta




100% AGREE with your last line White Trash

[Oscar]

Let's be clear here - I think Paeroa, Wanganui etc are fantastic events, well run and managing for the most part to juggle the conflicting elements of rider/fan safety with a challenging quick course.

However, every time a politician or opinionated member of the public sees adverse news from the IOM (and ironically, that includes Mr. Gardner's comments), and particularly when it involves a death or serious injury to a Kiwi rider - our local events become that little bit harder to run.

[Quasievil]

This post I do Take as a personell attack, keep your mouth shut big mouth

And I am sure I speak for Paul and Robert as well

Nope nothing personal there towards you Shaun, not that I can see.
The discussion was clearly about the safety of the the track and if it should be allowed to continue based on Wayne Gardeners comments.

Some say its ok to continue and some say its done its dash and is getting to dangerous, I fall in to the latter group which is my choice, you can fall into the earlier group and thats cool, most of my mates fall into the same group as you also which is sweet, I actually dont have to agree do I, and whats the point in all agreeing.
Sadly the fact is that during the ManxGP and the next year IOM a few riders will die, thats actually most likey and sadly a fact, I dont think this is acceptable out of a single track weather Paeroa or the IOM, clearly the track is dangerous and should be filed into history, In my view.
You can beat your chest and call me a softcock as much as you like, but I can and will assure you that my opinion is a fair and reasonable one to hold, might not be the same as yours but its mine and I have one so you need to get over that.

[Drumboy4468]

I simply cant see how those who have never competed can make this decision for those who have ( wayne gardner included)
Personaly I have the utmost respect for anyone who has the courage tallent and skill to take that challange on.
Even at the local cliffhanger event I am constantly blown away by the level of skill of some of the riders ( saddly for me some of them half my age lol) and the sense of comradery amongst almost all of the riders. I can only imagine the level that it must be at the isle.

As far as the coimment i beleive was made about families of the fallen having there hands out for donations I found that pretty off. What you will find actually happens is that people want to help and that is proven by Seans generosity. He was in a postion not so long ago of neading help and he got it so now he is giving back. Thats the spirrit you will find amongst real bikers

[Katman]

Personaly I have the utmost respect for anyone who has the courage tallent and skill to take that challange on.


I'm sure most here would have a similar viewpoint - but that's not what this thread's about.

It's about whether this event is ultimately doing more harm for the sport than good.

[Tink]

To all the people with BAN the place replies, FUCK off soft cocks.

Our world is so PC these days, that a man cannot even fart in public anymare for f sake.

Out of respect to the 200 odd that have lost there lives doing what they WANTED TO DO with There lives, RIP TEAM!

You can all sit back and type this and type that, but I know I raced there with my family support, and I know 99% of other racers raced there with there family support, so again, PISS off negative posters, and get back in your soft safe chairs, and have a wonderfull non challenging normall life.

MODS, sorry about the directness, but this shit on here really pisses me off. Delete if you must?


A female pespective, and I do not have a "cock" thanks... but I don't think they should ban it, but possibly make the entry more strict, I have no clue, but I knew Paul through his work, and I was guttered when he died, but it is the choice of the rider, so dig deep Shaun, your right!!!!!!!

[Matt Bleck]

http://www.crash.net/road+racing/news/161306/1/under_fire_gardner_renews_attack_on_tt.html

[Quasievil]

This quote from the legend Gardener sums it up in my view (yes Shaun I am allowed one)
Remember: there's a key difference between closed circuit racing (such as MotoGP) and the TT, and that's this: The TT virtually guarantees bodies on boxes EVERY year.”

One question I raised earlier and im interested in is, what modifications if any, and how many modifications or investment has gone into making the track safer over the years? anyone know.
Surely there have been adjustments and added safety measures put in place, anyone know?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Does one title make a legend? Not in my eyes. Mick Doohans 5 in a row sure...but 1?

[Quasievil]

Does one title make a legend? Not in my eyes. Mick Doohans 5 in a row sure...but 1?

No Not really, I have met him on a number of occasions and he is to me, I have a few people I consider Legends, like whitetrash for example, a skinny obnoxious prick from welly that cant handle his beer but I digress.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Lawson, Rainey, Roberts, Doohan, Spencer, Ago and Rossi are legends. Gardner, Schwantz and Criville were one time winners that were awesome for sure...but I don't think 'legends'. Schwantz maybe for his riding style though...

[Oscar]

Lawson, Rainey, Roberts, Doohan, Spencer, Ago and Rossi are legends. Gardner, Schwantz and Criville were one time winners that were awesome for sure...but I don't think 'legends'. Schwantz maybe for his riding style though...

A little bit harsh.
Anyone who can win a Grand Prix is a legend in my book.
Though Gardner won his title more by hard graft rather than natural talent.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Possibly...but we all have our opinions on the subject...much like we do regarding the IOM. But you are right in saying that anyone that can win a GP (especially on a wild 500) could be considered one I guess. They're certainly not human. So maybe I should've said ok...they're legends...but not super legends!

[onearmedbandit]

I hoping that we'll see a new headline soon - "IoM demands immediate Interfering Do-Gooder Nosey-Beaked Sticky-Nosed Liberals Ban"

[FROSTY]

Of course no one who lives on the Isle minds the huge influx of people and business each year. They won't want it stopped. What do they care if a few riders have to pay the ultimate price each year. Their country would be a muddy forgotten backwater without it.
Sorry dude Unfortunately thats not true. IOM has become a nice little haven (from memory also tax haven) for the rich n infamous.
There is a groundswell of em that want the IOMTT banned "for safety reasons"
These are the same people who build a fancy appartment block right next to the pumpingest pub in town then complain about the noise.

[Edbear]

Sorry dude Unfortunately thats not true. IOM has become a nice little haven (from memory also tax haven) for the rich n infamous.
There is a groundswell of em that want the IOMTT banned "for safety reasons"
These are the same people who build a fancy appartment block right next to the pumpingest pub in town then complain about the noise.

Or Western Springs Stock Car track...

[jellywrestler]

One question I raised earlier and im interested in is, what modifications if any, and how many modifications or investment has gone into making the track safer over the years? anyone know.
Surely there have been adjustments and added safety measures put in place, anyone know?

Every year the organisers scrutinise their safety barriers as a matter of course, particulalry how they've coped with an incident whether it be a minor one or at the other end of the scale and they are constantly making improvements based on what has occured and improvements on the available barriers etc
There have also been a lot more eye on who can race there in recent years, it used to be like our MNZ (three rides on a closed circuit lets you race on the streets) but they now scrutinise your actual recent experience etc.
I read Gardeners comments, particulalry the reference to Barry Sheenes dislike for the place. Sheene HAD to go there. it was part of the series and that's then and this is now where the ISLE OF MAN T.T. is no longer part of a series and is a one off ride making it your decision to ride there.
Gardeners comments are narrow minded saying it is impossible to remember all the corners and all the braking points, this is a poor perception of those who seek to take on the challenge of the 37 3/4 mile course and an insult to those who have the ability and strive to learn the course. I wonder what he says about enduros where every time you ride the tracks they differ from last, or you haven't even ridden it before a race?????

Here's a piccy of NZ's first T.T. competitor, Alan Woodman I found south of Blenheim a couple of years ago, and researched him a little. Alan lost his leg in practice in 1910, he and other competitors petitioned the organisers to let him ride the next year, the first over the mountain, but they refused on the grounds of safety....
Rest assured despite the risks of the course the organisers do their utmost to make it as safe as they can.

[Quasievil]

How to be a Hypocrit, as above.

It is FACT, that road riders are killed on the roads in accidents, the above poster sells leather gear to road riders, so he can make money from the sale? and then has the arrogance to post shite like in this thread, wow, YES I am confused now

So it is OK for a person to set up a buisness selling product to make money from an industry that DOES have a Known Risk facture! ( And please do not say you are trying to keep people safe, other wise you would be selling it all at your cost if that was the truth) But if any induviduall wants to make there own decisions about there future they cannot, because people like above say so???

You still going on the organised road rides that kill people mate

You still riding on the road where people die mate

yes Im very interested in rider safety Shaun.

Perhaps you need to walk away and settle the fuck down, just a suggestion

[Quasievil]

Gardeners comments are narrow minded saying it is impossible to remember all the corners and all the braking points, this is a poor perception of those who seek to take on the challenge of the 37 3/4 mile course and an insult to those who have the ability and strive to learn the course. I wonder what he says about enduros where every time you ride the tracks they differ from last, or you haven't even ridden it before a race?????


I got a DVD of the IOM 2006 (I think) yes the top guys know the corners alright, there is a few hotlaps from the bike perspective and the guys talking through each part of the track, what they are using for sighting in the corner.....bumb here.......watch the hedge here etc etc.
Very cool, I think margin for error isnt there tho.

But anyway, Im being attacked here now so leave you to it.