Revolting teachers!

[oldrider]

[despite that reactionary rubbish OLDRIDER was dribbling about the union protecting the mediocre!!] .

Hello,......."I" am not the one with the problem here...you are! (apparently you and your fellow teachers)

I am simply offering an opinion on why it is you continuously find yourselves feeling unappreciated overworked and underpaid!

This comes up as a hardy annual and nothing has ever changed between these repetitive bouts of employment dissatisfaction!

If you are doing so well, why do you keep on complaining and bleating for more & more money?

Why is it that nothing ever changes?

Because you keep on doing things the same way and expect to get a different result!

When anyone offers a hint of a solution, you try to shoot the messenger and carry on doing the same thing all over again!

Well it gets a tad monotonous and and gets the public to wondering just what sort of twits "are" teaching our kids!

Teachers need to get their head out of their arse and do some serious thinking about what it is they want out of their employment and get it sorted!

No two teachers are of the same value and I just happen to believe they should be paid according to their "individual" worth!

Oh well, see you next year, when you do it all again then! :zzzz:

[NighthawkNZ]

When anyone offers a hint of a solution, you try to shoot the messenger and carry on doing the same thing all over again!


Sounds like humans in general...

[SVboy]

Oops touched a few nerves here!! Your big swerve to the right has seen you miss the points made entirely. Nearly all teachers are there for the satisfaction-they would not do it for the $$. If you reviewed previous posts here you would see that hourly rates are poor compensation for the hours put in. That is the reality of teaching.We are here because we try to make a contribution, but we would like our efforts appreciated appropriately. Please review my previous posts FULLY about why teachers feel the need for industrial action. I think teachers are well aware they will struggle to get public support at this time, but believe in the principle and aims of their action enough to battle for them.
As to your assertion that nothing ever changes in education-perhaps that is your myopic perception, but here in 2010, I can assure you things have moved on from your time.
As to your idea about some imaginary pay scale based on somehow identifying which teachers are better than others-it is you who should pull your head out of your arse, and join us back in the real world, if only so you can crank up the mobility scooter so you can go and vote ACT or whatever other political crackpots might share your view.





Hello,......."I" am not the one with the problem here...you are! (apparently you and your fellow teachers)

I am simply offering an opinion on why it is you continuously find yourselves feeling unappreciated overworked and underpaid!

This comes up as a hardy annual and nothing has ever changed between these repetitive bouts of employment dissatisfaction!

If you are doing so well, why do you keep on complaining and bleating for more & more money?

Why is it that nothing ever changes?

Because you keep on doing things the same way and expect to get a different result!

When anyone offers a hint of a solution, you try to shoot the messenger and carry on doing the same thing all over again!

Well it gets a tad monotonous and and gets the public to wondering just what sort of twits "are" teaching our kids!

Teachers need to get their head out of their arse and do some serious thinking about what it is they want out of their employment and get it sorted!

No two teachers are of the same value and I just happen to believe they should be paid according to their "individual" worth!

Oh well, see you next year, when you do it all again then! :zzzz:

[aprilia_RS250]

I'm against teachers getting a pay rise. I think my HARD COLD EARNED tax dollars could be spent better, like subsidising motorcycles ACC levies.

[SVboy]

I'm against teachers getting a pay rise. I think my HARD COLD EARNED tax dollars could be spent better, like subsidising motorcycles ACC levies.

Now thats the kind of logic I can respect!!

[slofox]

Soooo...I daresay we will all be taking the same attitudes to these blokes, yes..?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10655960

[Oscar]

$'s is all its about, never anything else. Theres alot of jobs that havent and arent kept up with inflation and comparing to alot of jobs, teachers get it very good.

If teachers have it so good, how come all the experienced ones are off overseas?

[oldrider]

Oops touched a few nerves here!! Your big swerve to the right has seen you miss the points made entirely. Nearly all teachers are there for the satisfaction-they would not do it for the $$. If you reviewed previous posts here you would see that hourly rates are poor compensation for the hours put in. That is the reality of teaching.We are here because we try to make a contribution, but we would like our efforts appreciated appropriately. Please review my previous posts FULLY about why teachers feel the need for industrial action. I think teachers are well aware they will struggle to get public support at this time, but believe in the principle and aims of their action enough to battle for them.
As to your assertion that nothing ever changes in education-perhaps that is your myopic perception, but here in 2010, I can assure you things have moved on from your time.
As to your idea about some imaginary pay scale based on somehow identifying which teachers are better than others-it is you who should pull your head out of your arse, and join us back in the real world, if only so you can crank up the mobility scooter so you can go and vote ACT or whatever other political crackpots might share your view.

You just don't get it do you, "you" are the one with the problems, not me!

Nothing will change, (in "your" employment conditions) see you when this starts all over again next year! :sleep:

[Smifffy]

To be fair to those teaching (and striking) currently I doubt there are that many left in the game from the last dispute.

[Robert Taylor]

Funny how many middle-aged men retain bitter memories of their school-days which colour their view of the teaching profession even today. Does it ever occur to them that if teachers had had higher status back then, if teaching had been valued as a profession in the way medicine, engineering and law were, there might have been fewer drongos, time-servers and sadists in the job? When the current popular opinion was "Men who can, do; men who can't, teach" it was not surprising that many talented people preferred other occupations.
At times of severe teacher shortages back in the sixties the main qualification for being put in front of a class was having a pulse. (Even so we had some doubts about some of our teachers...)
It is nevertheless likely that most of the aforesaid middle-aged men who complain so bitterly about their schooldays received a better education than they care to admit, even if it was sometimes achieved in spite of the teachers rather than because of them. Their perception is distorted by the vividness of a child's experiences of injustice, hypocrisy and other wrongs (all of which occurred from time to time), and they forget either the positive contribution of the teacher or the fact that they themselves were reluctant or resistant participants in their own education.

In fairness I remember some really good teachers but also I vividly remember one teacher openly espousing communism. Thats just wrong.

[cowpoos]

i heard on the radio that the 'revolting' teachers get between $27-$35/hr.
tuff life.

p.s. can't say i envy them.

no...it more like 53 - 70 an hour [my partner is a secondary teacher...and was apposed to the strike...on the grounds that they are being unrealistic and pathetic]

[cowpoos]

The salary of a teacher divided by the actual hours of work done is less than slave labour.


Bullshit......you are a liar!

[cowpoos]

Yeah ... naaa ... If you work 60 to 70 hours some weeks during term time .. put up with the crap and shit ... and the students as well ... you need a break or you'd go crazy and do something else ...

Teaching is the most fatiguing job I've ever had and without the breaks I wouldn't do it

If your doing those hours your highly disorganised from what I've been told.

[cowpoos]

After a four year degree (with honours) and a year teacher training starting salary is 45K before tax. A nurse starts on 45 with an ordinary degree (3years).

Nurses have to do shift work...all hours....have a fraction of the time off [remember teachers get 12 wks payed]

[rapid van cleef]

so many people dont know what they are talking about with this issue. its quite scary really

[Oscar]

Nurses have to do shift work...all hours....have a fraction of the time off [remember teachers get 12 wks payed]

So what?
The salary reflects this.

In fact it's stupid small minded comments like this that only inflame the situation.
What would you have them do?
Dig ditches during the holidays?

There is no disputing the fact, that for their level of education, teachers are relatively low paid. Some of this is related to their workings hours and I don't think you'll find a teacher that will dispute this.

However, the salary is now too low relative to other professions and overseas standards and working conditions are also sub par. This is having a direct effect on teacher recruitment.

My wife is a High School DP, but also specialises in new teacher assessment in conjunction with the local University. She despairs of the standard of student that is currently being attracted to the profession.

This is our kids education we're talking about here, people.
We are getting what we pay for...

[Robert Taylor]

so many people dont know what they are talking about with this issue. its quite scary really

Its simple, we are in the middle of a recession where many industries have had to batten down the hatches and accept that the returns just arent there. And we have a national body that is out of step with that reality.

[rapid van cleef]

like i said...

[cowpoos]

In fact it's stupid small minded comments like this that only inflame the situation.
What would you have them do?
Dig ditches during the holidays?



no...its these comparisons that show the level of things.

and replys like yours that make teacher claims in this current situation look unrealistic.




There is no disputing the fact, that for their level of education, teachers are relatively low paid. Some of this is related to their workings hours and I don't think you'll find a teacher that will dispute this.

actually not really. a teacher with an english degree ain't worth shit in the REAL word....same goes for alot of the other current degrees teachers have.
I would make and exception for maths degrees. they can earn great money else where.

and we need to stop talking about the starting rate...the average is $65 K or something....and the hours are the biggest Lie. Teacher lye like shit about thier hours. A few [HOD's,DP's,etc] will do reasonable hours. the rest are highly disorganised and or lazy.

I've showed my partner alot of the posts supporting teachers on this thread...and she thought most of it was a crock...She did how ever mention that the Teacher Aids and support staff are far to often over look and poorly treated.
she agrees with lower class sizes. as would any sane person.

she is also leaving the Union after the holidays. She is embarassed by the rubbish and lies.

She also agrees with someone elses post about individual contracts. negociating your own deal with the Princapal,etc good teachers would get a premium. and deservedly so.

[Ocean1]

My wife is a High School DP, but also specialises in new teacher assessment in conjunction with the local University. She despairs of the standard of student that is currently being attracted to the profession.

This is our kids education we're talking about here, people.
We are getting what we pay for...

Tempting to say that we're getting what we made, dude. And that few professional societies or industrial representitives are happy with the standard of students attracted to their workplaces.

But I'll refrain.

[MikeL]

Summary of contributions so far:

1. Some people are teachers and think that teachers should be paid more.
2. Some people are not teachers but still think that teachers should be paid more because education is important.
3. Some people are not teachers and don't think that teachers should be paid more because (a) they have too many holidays; (b) they don't work nearly as many hours as proper workers; (c) they're already being remunerated handsomely; (d) we all have to tighten our belts in these straightened economic times; (e) they belong to a union; (f) they're not highly qualified; (g) "when I was at school all my teachers were bastards"; (h) some teachers are communists.
4. Some people who may or may not be teachers have researched the question thoroughly, thought deeply and based their views on facts, not prejudice, hearsay or the media, but unfortunately in most cases a computer malfunction has prevented these posts from appearing.

[Smifffy]

Teachers should strike and stay out until all of their demands are met. I'll wager it will go much like every other long drawn out industrial dispute I've ever seen.

Value Teachers!
Value Students!

Fix the curriculum
Save the whales!
Free Nelson Mandela!

[Oscar]

Tempting to say that we're getting what we made, dude. And that few professional societies or industrial representitives are happy with the standard of students attracted to their workplaces.

But I'll refrain.

It's true.
And it's a reflection of our education system.
We're getting what we pay for.
And in this case, our best and brightest are not teaching (or at least not in NZ).

[oldrider]

Summary of contributions so far:

1. Some people are teachers and think that teachers should be paid more.
2. Some people are not teachers but still think that teachers should be paid more because education is important.
3. Some people are not teachers and don't think that teachers should be paid more because (a) they have too many holidays; (b) they don't work nearly as many hours as proper workers; (c) they're already being remunerated handsomely; (d) we all have to tighten our belts in these straightened economic times; (e) they belong to a union; (f) they're not highly qualified; (g) "when I was at school all my teachers were bastards"; (h) some teachers are communists.
4. Some people who may or may not be teachers have researched the question thoroughly, thought deeply and based their views on facts, not prejudice, hearsay or the media, but unfortunately in most cases a computer malfunction has prevented these posts from appearing.

All of the above is true and wont change as long as the current situation remains the same!

Lets add on a few more points of pondering that contribute (IMHO) to this on going saga.

5. New Zealand state education is poorly managed.

6. New Zealand teachers are poorly represented.

7. Negotiations on employment remuneration and working conditions is negotiated too far away from the source of the individual working relationship.

I.E. Government negotiates with Union representatives, rather than empowering the people at the work front where the work actually gets done! ( it's akin to riding a motorcycle from the pillion seat and not actually being in control of the bike, then hiring someone to sit on the front seat to control it for you)

8. Empowerment of the work force should be directed to where the work takes place and to where the value of the work is more accurately understood and contracts should be negotiated at that manager/employee level.

9. Training for employment negotiations should be given to help participants to gain the skills and confidence to carry this out successfully and review the situation on an annual basis. (Unions can be used to assist their members to obtain these skills and lend support to their members, this should be strictly between the union and it's members, the school does not employ the Union, the members do))

10. Schools should be allocated the funds to run their own business according to the performance demonstrated by the individual schools on an annual basis.

11. That school business that is not tangibly deemed to be commercially sensitive to that school should be made transparent for public scrutiny at all times.

12. ERO auditing of schools should be expanded to include school business overall and including as first priority the behaviour of all of the participants in the schools industrial relations performance.

Hopefully then our schools would begin to improve to the point where the education of the pupils can again take presidency over the constantly nagging septic sore of teachers pay and conditions of work! :yes:

[SVboy]

All of the above is true and wont change as long as the current situation remains the same!

Lets add on a few more points of pondering that contribute (IMHO) to this on going saga.

5. New Zealand state education is poorly managed.

6. New Zealand teachers are poorly represented.

7. Negotiations on employment remuneration and working conditions is negotiated too far away from the source of the individual working relationship.

I.E. Government negotiates with Union representatives, rather than empowering the people at the work front where the work actually gets done! ( it's akin to riding a motorcycle from the pillion seat and not actually being in control of the bike, then hiring someone to sit on the front seat to control it for you)

8. Empowerment of the work force should be directed to where the work takes place and to where the value of the work is more accurately understood and contracts should be negotiated at that manager/employee level.

9. Training for employment negotiations should be given to help participants to gain the skills and confidence to carry this out successfully and review the situation on an annual basis. (Unions can be used to assist their members to obtain these skills and lend support to their members, this should be strictly between the union and it's members, the school does not employ the Union, the members do))

10. Schools should be allocated the funds to run their own business according to the performance demonstrated by the individual schools on an annual basis.

11. That school business that is not tangibly deemed to be commercially sensitive to that school should be made transparent for public scrutiny at all times.

12. ERO auditing of schools should be expanded to include school business overall and including as first priority the behaviour of all of the participants in the schools industrial relations performance.

Hopefully then our schools would begin to improve to the point where the education of the pupils can again take presidency over the constantly nagging septic sore of teachers pay and conditions of work! :yes:


Thank you Rodney Hide!!!! Bulk funding has been tried-what an abject failure. NZ schools are poorly managed? Says who? Teachers are poorly represented? Says who?. You are welcome to your opinions, but please dont state them as if they are facts.

[Tink]

Thank you Rodney Hide!!!! Bulk funding has been tried-what an abject failure. NZ schools are poorly managed? Says who? Teachers are poorly represented? Says who?. You are welcome to your opinions, but please dont state them as if they are facts.

He visited us at school the other week, ... after that I felt ill!

[gijoe1313]

Hmm first day of the school hols, and I am here reading this thread that I started ... :facepalm: I was going to head in today to do some admin work, but seeing as my brother has got back from Mexico and has a day off to recuperate - I'll use the time instead for sibling bonding.

A lot of valid points have been made by both sides - in the end, I can't be faffed with all of this malarkey. I only care about how my students are learning and achieving and how they will be contributing to society as a global citizen.

Morals, principles, ethics and doing the right thing is something I can only hope is transmitted via expectations and pointed guidance in these young things. A lot of what I see in and out of the classroom fills me with hope and joy, mixed with bitter realisations some will never amount to much or destined for a life of hardship and grief for them and others.

I don't have all the answers, I don't support everything the PPTA does. I'm too busy chipping at the coalface at my end and trying to keep myself sane (mmmm oh look, motorbikes - I think I shall go ride them!:sunny::Punk:)

[avgas]

Inflation. The cost of living. GST increase.
Wages are failing to keep up with the cost of living (except for politicians, of course).
Those are environmental effects. This means that everyone in the environment should get the same benefits.
Therefore we all should be paid more for nothing.

So I ask again; What is the specific problem?
Consolidate your arguments.

[Forest]

Thank you Rodney Hide!!!! Bulk funding has been tried-what an abject failure. NZ schools are poorly managed? Says who? Teachers are poorly represented? Says who?. You are welcome to your opinions, but please dont state them as if they are facts.

Local School Boards were established by the Labour Government under the Tomorrow's Schools reforms.

Bulk funding was introduced by the National Government to give Local School Boards more control over how they spent their budgets.

The Teacher's Union opposed bulk funding because it gave Local School Boards the right to set salaries for the teachers that they employed. In other words - the Union was deathly scared that teachers would be paid according to their job performance. What an outrageous idea!!

[rapid van cleef]

as a teacher i support performance related pay, i work my arse off and i enjoy my job and i know that kids learn stuff in my classes. however, it depends how performance related pay is measured. you can not measure the success of a teacher on ncea results alone. it depends on the starting point for those kids at the start of the year......this often gets forgotten and gets manipulated to proove certain 'facts' for comparison of results and league tables etc etc.

a teacher that gets a top level class has kids come through that would pass the ncea assessments regardless gets a pay rise. However, how much was down to teacher success or student skill that was already there? then the teacher that gets the low ability class doesnt get many kids pass the final assessments but they have all made considerable progress and have many skills they didnt have at the start of the year. which one deserves a pay rise?



its too difficult to get it right i reckon. do we pay doctors based on their success? i dont know. the more people they get better gets them paid more? would they have gotten better all by themselves anyway?..its a huge can of worms

[avgas]

as a teacher i support performance related pay, i work my arse off and i enjoy my job and i know that kids learn stuff in my classes. however, it depends how performance related pay is measured. you can not measure the success of a teacher on ncea results alone. it depends on the starting point for those kids at the start of the year......this often gets forgotten and gets manipulated to proove certain 'facts' for comparison of results and league tables etc etc.

a teacher that gets a top level class has kids come through that would pass the ncea assessments regardless gets a pay rise. However, how much was down to teacher success or student skill that was already there? then the teacher that gets the low ability class doesnt get many kids pass the final assessments but they have all made considerable progress and have many skills they didnt have at the start of the year. which one deserves a pay rise?

its too difficult to get it right i reckon. do we pay doctors based on their success? i dont know. the more people they get better gets them paid more? would they have gotten better all by themselves anyway?..its a huge can of worms

Tis unfortunately the way the world is working at the moment.
However this is why I have asked time and time again what teachers problems are?

I have been fed all types of bullshit - costs of living increasing blah blah blah, we need the money blah blah blah.
Complaining to the government they need more money.:facepalm:

Where what you have said right now clears a lot of this up - Clearly teachers have a problem with how they get evaluated.

Unless teachers started teaching for the money :blink:

[Ocean1]

It's true.
And it's a reflection of our education system.
We're getting what we pay for.
And in this case, our best and brightest are not teaching (or at least not in NZ).

I'd contend we're paying for what we haven't done.

The first (effective) lesson any student learns is that the getting of knowledge is not the responsibility of the teacher, it's a prerogative of the student.

Teach that and the student will learn, irrespective of the quality of the teacher.

It's not even a difficult lesson to teach. You can start by refraining from bailing the wee dears out every time they fuck up.

[oldrider]

Thank you Rodney Hide!!!! Bulk funding has been tried-what an abject failure. NZ schools are poorly managed? Says who? Teachers are poorly represented? Says who?. You are welcome to your opinions, but please dont state them as if they are facts.

And now you are trying to convince everyone that what you are doing today "works"...so why are you lot always complaining?

My perception is my reality based mainly on the information teachers provide for us, over and over and over! :zzzz:

[oldrider]

Local School Boards were established by the Labour Government under the Tomorrow's Schools reforms.

Bulk funding was introduced by the National Government to give Local School Boards more control over how they spent their budgets.

The Teacher's Union opposed bulk funding because it gave Local School Boards the right to set salaries for the teachers that they employed. In other words - the Union was deathly scared that teachers would be paid according to their job performance. What an outrageous idea!!

Absolutely, that what gets measured, gets done!

Lets see the good teachers get rewarded for their good work and the rest rewarded accordingly!

[rapid van cleef]

amognst all of that like every trade, there are a few teachers that are a disgrace and should not be in the job. just like i have experienced shit mechanics and shop assistants etc etc. that deosnt mean that i will never go to a shop again or a garage, and it doesnt mean they are all the same.

i love my job

does my wife and kids pay a price for me rarely being there and working with students? ..yes

do i work through weekends and holidays? yes

i work more hours a year than my wife in her full time job with 4 weeks holidays

do teachers get paid more than 'average' already? yes

BUT, we do get paid less here in NZ than a lot of countries......but theres a pay off with the quality of life here in NZ as a teacher

i taught in the uk for 6 years and its soo much harder there. weak teachers get filtered out out in my experience........

and i would go work overseas for more pay if it wasnt for my kids....but i do like it here. many teachers complain about their job when they havent had a 'real job' like in a shop or factory etc etc. ive done allsorts and thats why im still a teacher after 12 years

anyway, its a huge can of worms and like every job, we are not all the same, we are humans, therfore flawed. i have shit lessons too(not often) that doesnt mean im a shit teacher. and i wouldnt want someone assessing my whole years pay based on 1 lesson observation, where it all went wrong, sometimes it does.

imagine teaching a lesson, being observed by 2 or more seniors staff members and 3 kids kick off fighting, all the electricity goes off and then another kid throws up, your office phone rings constantly, 3 different people come into the class to see you about somthing that they should have left until another time, a parent walks into your class to see you, and you have to get on with it....its all quite exciting really. you have another class straight after and you have incident reports to write out and kids to refer to time out room then meetings and phone classs with those kids and parents.....

meetings at breaks, students support/ extra lessons at ,lunchtimes and after school

oh, i forgot, i need to take a crap and drink.......never mind aye.....i havent got time for that......lunch........whats that?

oh, one of the little darlings told me he was gonna burn my house down and told me to fuck off and they know where i live and..........i could go on...

BUT, i love my job!

id still rather not work in a shop!!!!!!!

[cowpoos]

as a teacher i support performance related pay, i work my arse off and i enjoy my job and i know that kids learn stuff in my classes. however, it depends how performance related pay is measured. you can not measure the success of a teacher on ncea results alone. it depends on the starting point for those kids at the start of the year......this often gets forgotten and gets manipulated to proove certain 'facts' for comparison of results and league tables etc etc.

a teacher that gets a top level class has kids come through that would pass the ncea assessments regardless gets a pay rise. However, how much was down to teacher success or student skill that was already there? then the teacher that gets the low ability class doesnt get many kids pass the final assessments but they have all made considerable progress and have many skills they didnt have at the start of the year. which one deserves a pay rise?



its too difficult to get it right i reckon. do we pay doctors based on their success? i dont know. the more people they get better gets them paid more? would they have gotten better all by themselves anyway?..its a huge can of worms

Your right....it would actually be imposable to do.

But having individual negotiated contracts with the school would be the closest to getting it right...especially for the good teachers who add value to their class room abilities, for the benifit of school and students.

[avgas]

i love my job.......i do like it.....i love my job!
Do you have to repeat this 30 times every day like me?
Bugger

[oldrider]

Your right....it would actually be imposable to do.

But having individual negotiated contracts with the school would be the closest to getting it right...especially for the good teachers who add value to their class room abilities, for the benifit of school and students.

The only reason it is impossible is because of the attitude of the majority of those who need a solution!

Conditions of employment must take up a lot of valuable teaching/thinking time, clear that out of the way and the teachers would emerge like flowers in the spring sunshine!

While I confess that it seems to hang heavily over them as millstone around their necks!

It begs the question, "why are they so reluctant to address the problem"!

Perhaps it just the NZ way ..... someone or something to blame! (and they're teaching "that" to our kids!!!!)

[Shorty_925]

If teachers have it so good, how come all the experienced ones are off overseas?

Not all experienced teachers are overseas, but like anyone in any job, they follow where there is better pay (sometimes for worse teaching conditions).

[oldrider]

amognst all of that like every trade, there are a few teachers that are a disgrace and should not be in the job. just like i have experienced shit mechanics and shop assistants etc etc. that deosnt mean that i will never go to a shop again or a garage, and it doesnt mean they are all the same.

i love my job

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

BUT, i love my job!

id still rather not work in a shop!!!!!!!

I really believe you!

Rewrite your post and in between "i love my job" (where the XX's are) and "But, I love my job"!

Write it out how it would read, if it was "good", the way you think it "should" be, in a perfect world!

Seriously, I am not taking the piss, I would like to read that version!

[rapid van cleef]

hahaha

who put all the X's in my post? i certainly didnt!

anyhoo

the point was, how many people actually enjoy what they do for a living?

i think im pretty lucky that way.................but back to the point of the thread.......

quote from moonlighting from the 80's....

more pay less work!
more pay less work!

ra ra ra!

so, today i rode for a few hours, played on me xbox, done some painting round the house..all before 5 pm.......oooh how i love me hols!

now i expect someones going to jump on that cos ive actually admitted that i have spent a day off not working for school!

ah well

[oldrider]

The teacher's and their union are getting so far to the left, they appear to have actually left the planet! :bye:

[Banditbandit]

The teacher's and their union are getting so far to the left, they appear to have actually left the planet! :bye:

You are kidding (aren't you ... ???) I think they are so middle of the road they are not worth worrying about ... They used to be left-wing ... but not since last century ...

[oldrider]

You are kidding (aren't you ... ???) I think they are so middle of the road they are not worth worrying about ... They used to be left-wing ... but not since last century ...

:lol: We all see the game from different sides of the stadium!

I think Rodney Hide is so far left of centre that he looks like a Kiwi version of the leaning tower of Pisa! :rolleyes:

Like I said in an earlier post (somewhere) this "country" as a whole leans so far to the left it has almost turned the full circle and is in danger of disappearing up it's own arse! :facepalm:

So many men, so many opinions, I guess! :shutup:

[StephenG]

...So many men, so many opinions, I guess! :shutup:

This seems to be something KB has no shortage of.

[Banditbandit]

:lol: We all see the game from different sides of the stadium!

I think Rodney Hide is so far left of centre that he looks like a Kiwi version of the leaning tower of Pisa! :rolleyes:

Like I said in an earlier post (somewhere) this "country" as a whole leans so far to the left it has almost turned the full circle and is in danger of disappearing up it's own arse! :facepalm:

So many men, so many opinions, I guess! :shutup:

You're right .. we have very different opionions ...

I think Rodney is so far right he's in danger of dropping off the spectrum ... but hey, I'm a radical anarchist ... so everyone is to the right of me ...

[oldrider]

This seems to be something KB has no shortage of.


You're right .. we have very different opionions ...

I think Rodney is so far right he's in danger of dropping off the spectrum ... but hey, I'm a radical anarchist ... so everyone is to the right of me ...

Don't despair, it's a healthy sign, how boring and retarding, if we all thought the same! :clap:

[Number One]

as a teacher i support performance related pay, i work my arse off and i enjoy my job and i know that kids learn stuff in my classes. however, it depends how performance related pay is measured. you can not measure the success of a teacher on ncea results alone. it depends on the starting point for those kids at the start of the year......this often gets forgotten and gets manipulated to proove certain 'facts' for comparison of results and league tables etc etc.

a teacher that gets a top level class has kids come through that would pass the ncea assessments regardless gets a pay rise. However, how much was down to teacher success or student skill that was already there? then the teacher that gets the low ability class doesnt get many kids pass the final assessments but they have all made considerable progress and have many skills they didnt have at the start of the year. which one deserves a pay rise?

Well said! This is what scares me about the 'performance incentive based stuff' who and what will be left to teach those kids that aren't falling into the 'right band of average (or whatever) to be worth your teaching effort' - thankfully there are gems out there...I believe the way Mr OP 'types' he demonstrates that there are some teachers about who care most about what they SHOULD CARE ABOUT MOST...the students learning!

[oldrider]

Well said! This is what scares me about the 'performance incentive based stuff' who and what will be left to teach those kids that aren't falling into the 'right band of average (or whatever) to be worth your teaching effort' - thankfully there are gems out there...I believe the way Mr OP 'types' he demonstrates that there are some teachers about who care most about what they SHOULD CARE ABOUT MOST...the students learning!

Your fears are valid, badly constructed and managed performance based agreements are just as futile as the current teachers mess! (my description)

Performance based agreements are just that "agreements" between two individuals, (manager and employee) anything less is simply not an agreement!

In my own experience, performance agreements are both enjoyable and challenging for both parties but in saying that I acknowledge that New Zealand is extremely short of good managers in this respect! (and many other respects too)

But just because it is difficult to get started doesn't mean it can't be achieved!

Like the man in the cheese adds says, "good things take time"!

[oldrider]

If anybody ever reads this thread again, especially any teachers, I think that there is something that should be made clearer!

Generally we are not criticising the ability of teachers to "teach", or their commitment to their job and their pupils!

It is the teaching professions attitude to industrial relations and employment conditions that is being criticised.

Personally I do not profess to be able to be a competent teacher but I have a lifetime of experience in industrial relations both as a union member and in management.

IMHO the state school teachers have abdicated their responsibility for negotiating and settling their own conditions of employment to an inferior body of people and then pay them handsomely a (tax) fee for their incompetence!

The evidence of the poor result is the constant bleating of the teachers about their dissatisfaction with those results!

That is the basis of my criticism of state school teachers, not their teaching ability or their commitment to their students! (FWIW)

[pritch]

Some seem to appreciate the work we do, but there's also a few that don't.

Cognitive dissonances at work here; I respect teachers but have absolutely no respect for the cretins that seem to represent the profession.

Then again, when I read some of the stuff on the Internet I wonder what you guys do all day. OK, I know Joe rides his bike but... :whistle:

[gijoe1313]

Well today was a good start for me, my junior classes were well behaved and actually did their work! I wonder what they are setting me up for!:blink:

And as I was having a chat to the kids about their school hols, they got me chatting about my bikes (they are getting smart and realise they can always derail my lesson plans by talking about bikes! :innocent:)

Mmmmm bikes ... but bugger it, got a damn rolling strike this thursday. Year 11s not to be taught! :shutup:

[MikeL]

If anybody ever reads this thread again, especially any teachers, I think that there is something that should be made clearer!

Generally we are not criticising the ability of teachers to "teach", or their commitment to their job and their pupils!

It is the teaching professions attitude to industrial relations and employment conditions that is being criticised.



I can see your point of view and to some extent I share your misgivings about the teacher unions. However, I wonder whether you have thought carefully about what conditions and salaries teachers might be now putting up with if there had been no strong unions in the past. Do you seriously believe that without the PPTA the secondary teachers would be earning even the pittance they get today??

[oldrider]

I can see your point of view and to some extent I share your misgivings about the teacher unions. However, I wonder whether you have thought carefully about what conditions and salaries teachers might be now putting up with if there had been no strong unions in the past. Do you seriously believe that without the PPTA the secondary teachers would be earning even the pittance they get today??

True enough but are their agendas today still in your best interest or their own?

I suppose I fantasize about Utopia too much and forget about the arseholes on the way!

But having been in a position where one could actually see Utopia in the distance and where it was possible to deal to the arseholes appropriately, it is difficult not to see Utopian dreams as achievable!

I still believe that where there is a "will" there is a way!

Unfortunately, if you hand a task over to someone else to do, their own agendas will get in the way of the progress of yours, every time!

No one said it would be easy!

[MikeL]

True enough but are their agendas today still in your best interest or their own?

I suppose I fantasize about Utopia too much and forget about the arseholes on the way!



Utopias can't exist, both by definition (the word means "noplace") and through the limitations of human nature. There will always be a tension between the claims of the employer and the claims of the worker. The history of workers' movements in the 19th and 20th centuries is essentially the struggle of workers to redress the huge power imbalance between the two sides. What has animated (and will continue to animate) the ideological debate is firstly the different perspective on the value of labour compared to the value of capital and entrepreneurship in the industrial equation, and secondly the relative value of different types of work within the economy.

A consensus on both debates will never happen because most people will not sacrifice their selfish interests for the good of the economy, the community or the environment as a whole.

It is the second issue that really concerns me most. I have a particular view, based on my own experience and reflections, which I don't expect you to share, but which I think you can at least appreciate.

Most of my life I have been a teacher, but at one point I left the profession first to go into business (self-employed), then to work in sales and marketing for a large multinational electronics company. The small business was fun but I struggled because of the level of capital needed to get ahead. The sales and marketing job was in many respects a dream: generous salary, company car, expense account, overseas travel... I stayed there for 4 years and if I'd wanted to I could probably have still been there. But in my fourth year I became disillusioned with the whole pointless marketing thing: putting all my intellectual skills and creativity into persuading people to buy things they didn't need with money they didn't have. How was this making a positive contribution to the sum total of human happiness or knowledge? So (despite my wife's strenuous objections) I went back to teaching. Of course our standard of living dropped preciptiously, and there have been times I've regretted my decision, but on the whole I know that I'm now doing a more important and valuable job. When I think about my current working conditions, hours, stress etc. I can't help feeling a little bitter that my job is not, by and large, valued by others anywhere near as highly as the pointless work I was doing before. But until we begin to take a broader view of people's contributions to society rather than remain narrowly focussed on the market place and bottom-line accounting nothing will change.

[oldrider]

Fair enough!

We get one shot at life (irrespective of religious beliefs) and I for one am determined to maximise that opportunity!

I have been placed on the luckiest part of the planet and have enjoyed the most wonderful life that anyone could ever ask for!

I am not enthused about the idea of reincarnation because anything other than the life I have enjoyed so far would probably be a retrograde step!

I have enjoyed my time at work at play and at rest and have a wonderful wife and family.

I look outside today at the most wonderful sunny calm temperate day in paradise!

The only thing that could possibly fuck it up is human conflict, I shall do my best to avoid that today!

I will be 71 this month and that is the end of my expected quota of life, based on human male average! (three score years and ten)

After Labour weekend I will be on bonus time, everyday will be more precious than ever and I shall try not to feel even a little guilty at my good fortune!

Best of luck to the rest of you, take care out there. :drinknsin

[Smifffy]

Then again, perhaps if they had better representation they might now be earning a great deal more... :msn-wink:


I can see your point of view and to some extent I share your misgivings about the teacher unions. However, I wonder whether you have thought carefully about what conditions and salaries teachers might be now putting up with if there had been no strong unions in the past. Do you seriously believe that without the PPTA the secondary teachers would be earning even the pittance they get today??

[Squiggles]

Stoking the fire (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4258966/20K-raise-for-education-boss)

[merv]

The irony is that the CEO of the Education Ministry managed this:

"One of the biggest winners was Karen Sewell of the Ministry of Education. While she hasn't been able to strike a deal with teachers' salaries, she's negotiated a $20,000 payrise of her own in the past year. Ms Sewell's pay rate increases to $509,000."

So she is being paid nearly 10 x a lowly teacher, begrudges them getting 0.4% pay rise and takes over 4% herself. So nearly 10x salary plus 10x the % rise.

A teacher on 60k, if they finally get their 0.4%, will get an extra $240 per annum compared to the CEO getting an extra $20,000 p.a. or 83 times as much.

The top end do line their nest these days and workers wouldn't begrudge it half as bad if at least the percentage rises stayed on par, but they never do, let alone the comparative working conditions.

How many office workers at the Ministry have to pay for a work laptop and cell phone yet many teachers have to, while at the same time the Ministry preaches the need for the use of more technology in class etc etc? The whole situation is farcical, the Govt should be spending the money on the front line where it matters.

[mashman]

Don't forget the tax refund she's just "earned" too... wonder what that's worth...

[merv]

Don't forget the tax refund she's just "earned" too... wonder what that's worth...

That's probably more than 10 x what the poor teachers are getting too!

[merv]

Haha from the feedback I've had I may as well have said in that last post more than 100 or even a 1,000 x what the poor teacher gets as the CEO will have got close to $25,000 for her tax cut. There is no justice that is for sure.

[mashman]

I wasn't sure as i'd roughly calculated about 20k... so an effective 45k pay rise :gob: to oversee a group of subordinates... aren't those subordinates unhappy about something? Why do you get a pay rise when yer subordinates are hacked off with their working conditions? That kind of performance is usually accompanied by being unceremoniously shown the door... that shoulda been the outcome for her, not a whackin great chunk of cash...

[marie_speeds]

Congrats on finally getting somewhere for those members amongst us who have had this hanging over them for soooooo long. :clap: Must be a relief..... and in an election year too :msn-wink:

[CookMySock]

My mother has been a teacher for 30 years, and they don't pay her nearly enough for the workload and bullshit she has to deal with!Why not get another job elsewhere? It's not like she cant choose. That's what all other people do when they don't like their job.