Revolting teachers!

[gijoe1313]

Well, that was a fine how do you do... went with Captain Banzai and parked up outside Auckland Pubic Libararyry, we trudged up to the rotunda in Albert park and hobnobbed amongst a gathering of filthy treachery types - I was in my best Spartan armour and everyone was in fashionable black.

Usual windage about treacher's rights and wrongs and boo-hoos, stood there in the shade like a muppet for a hour waiting for the muster.

Desultory cheers, jeers and speeches, plenty of teacher screeches ... usual hullaballoo ...

Marched down from park into bottleneck and down into Queen street, got interviewed by a telly type, clicky clicky of photo snappers. Got to QE square at bottom of Queen st.

Could hardly be faffed hanging about, so buggered off back to the bike with Capt. Banzai and companion and rode off chortling.

He went to Hobby City in Tamaki Dr, and I to 'Treads to pick up my order of battery connectors for my battery optimiser, chowed down a meat pastry parcel and a swig of ginger beer. Talked to TOTO.

Rode home, gave Capt. Banzai a loan of my Big Ol'Hornet to test, and I bashed on some Oggy knobs onto Cindi (my preddy CB1000R). Corker of a day. Except for that bit where I had to faff round with some revolting treachers complaining about our lot 'cause gubbermint is being meaners.

Chur, peace out.

Oh yeah, looking forward to ride down to see Quasi with TOTO and Gremlin. I don't think the 'Tron is quite ready for this!

[piston broke]

i heard on the radio that the 'revolting' teachers get between $27-$35/hr.
tuff life.

p.s. can't say i envy them.

[Mully]

Saw them opposite work in Queen St.

They need to work on their pronouncing - I knew they wanted something "now!", but I wasn't sure what they wanted cos I couldn't understand them.

[SMOKEU]

It must be a shit job being a teacher, dealing with all those horrible students. My old man used to be a high school teacher and he would beat some of the students with sticks.

[Grumpy]

i heard on the radio that the 'revolting' teachers get between $27-$35/hr.
tuff life.

p.s. can't say i envy them.

Is it true that is based on a salary not a wage. If the workload that these new national standards has created has increased by what has been said then the offer that they have been extended does kinda amount to a kick in the nuts doesn't it. Teaching can be a pretty thankless job I s'pose.

[nutjob]

My mother has been a teacher for 30 years, and they don't pay her nearly enough for the workload and bullshit she has to deal with!

[StephenG]

... I was in my best Spartan armour and everyone was in fashionable black. ...

Wahey! I saw you! I was in the march too!

Some seem to appreciate the work we do, but there's also a few that don't. I'm a rather youngish/newish teacher and people seem incredulous that I'd want to be a teacher ... some of these people being other teachers! I definitely think we are undervalued in this society.

For the haters who think otherwise, I would gladly let them do my job for a week to help them understand. No? You don't want to do my job? Hrm...

[vindy500]

Wahey! I saw you! I was in the march too!

Some seem to appreciate the work we do, but there's also a few that don't. I'm a rather youngish/newish teacher and people seem incredulous that I'd want to be a teacher ... some of these people being other teachers! I definitely think we are undervalued in this society.

For the haters who think otherwise, I would gladly let them do my job for a week to help them understand. No? You don't want to do my job? Hrm...

youre not exactly forced into it though are you

[PrincessBandit]

Wahey! I saw you! I was in the march too!

Some seem to appreciate the work we do, but there's also a few that don't. I'm a rather youngish/newish teacher and people seem incredulous that I'd want to be a teacher ... some of these people being other teachers! I definitely think we are undervalued in this society.

For the haters who think otherwise, I would gladly let them do my job for a week to help them understand. No? You don't want to do my job? Hrm...

I remember my Practicum lecturer pointing out early on in our classes - as a profession, teachers deal with up to around 30 "clients" simultaneously; how many lawyers, doctors and suchlike have to deal with that number all in one room. There are times when I question my own sanity about why I'm doing this, especially when dealing with some of the belligerent sweethearts you have to deal with in the classroom, corridors and playgrounds! (Especially when most of them are much bigger than me).

[piston broke]

My mother has been a teacher for 30 years, and they don't pay her nearly enough for the workload and bullshit she has to deal with!


so 25-35 /hr isn't enough
i don't doubt there real value (could be a lot better),but all in all,tis a very good wage for nz

[Smifffy]

I had the day off today, the Moll is a relief teacher, so naturally had the day off, since there were no junkets she needed to provide cover for.

We went to one of our large regional centres to do a bit shopping today. Irish pub for lunch, which was full of teachers who had taken the day off without pay in protest of the fact that they aren't paid enough to be able to eat or drink.

Good luck to em.

[piston broke]

Is it true that is based on a salary not a wage. If the workload that these new national standards has created has increased by what has been said then the offer that they have been extended does kinda amount to a kick in the nuts doesn't it. Teaching can be a pretty thankless job I s'pose.


yep sallary i believe,
oh and don't they get 13weeks/yr holliday

[piston broke]

Wahey! I saw you! I was in the march too!

Some seem to appreciate the work we do, but there's also a few that don't. I'm a rather youngish/newish teacher and people seem incredulous that I'd want to be a teacher ... some of these people being other teachers! I definitely think we are undervalued in this society.

For the haters who think otherwise, I would gladly let them do my job for a week to help them understand. No? You don't want to do my job? Hrm...




count me in,with bells on

[Virago]

...don't they get 13weeks/yr holliday

The holidays are the biggest problem for teachers who are planning rolling industrial action. It ain't easy...

[piston broke]

I had the day off today, the Moll is a relief teacher, so naturally had the day off, since there were no junkets she needed to provide cover for.

We went to one of our large regional centres to do a bit shopping today. Irish pub for lunch, which was full of teachers who had taken the day off without pay in protest of the fact that they aren't paid enough to be able to eat or drink.

Good luck to em.

yep,,,fekem.

you do a super job(most of you)
but compare it to others pay's before this bs.

[Squiggles]

Wahey! I saw you! I was in the march too!

Some seem to appreciate the work we do, but there's also a few that don't. I'm a rather youngish/newish teacher and people seem incredulous that I'd want to be a teacher ... some of these people being other teachers! I definitely think we are undervalued in this society.

For the haters who think otherwise, I would gladly let them do my job for a week to help them understand. No? You don't want to do my job? Hrm...

I want to but the Uni's are sure taking their sweet time / making things difficult when it comes to doing a Graduate Diploma!

[Smifffy]

I want to but the Uni's are sure taking their sweet time / making things difficult when it comes to doing a Graduate Diploma!

Yeah, the Moll finds this too, but not to worry the Unis will also cancel more courses and the NZIS will allow more yarpie teachers in to fill the gaps.

[PrincessBandit]

I want to but the Uni's are sure taking their sweet time / making things difficult when it comes to doing a Graduate Diploma!

And training college doesn't make it any easier either when you have to do the course part time 'cos you're already teaching! (Think 14 weeks of practicum away from your NCEA students...)

[Mom]

Yeah, the Moll finds this too, but not to worry the Unis will also cancel more courses and the NZIS will allow more yarpie teachers in to fill the gaps.

My daughter is a teacher, languages, English and Japanese and cant find a permanent job.

[MSTRS]

I don't have much sympathy for the teachers and their apparent poor pay. I know what other school staff have to put up with.

[spajohn]

Does anyone know what nurses get on average? Did I hear correctly that they want double (4%) what nurses got, not to mention the stats over the last x years...and they don't want to be held accountable for kids learning standards/achievements?! WTF.

[MSTRS]

Does anyone know what nurses get on average? Did I hear correctly that they want double (4%) what nurses got, not to mention the stats over the last x years...and they don't want to be held accountable for kids learning standards/achievements?! WTF.

Nor do they want pay rates to reflect individual's classroom results.
= no incentive to be the best they can.

There's some teachers out there that I wouldn't trust to teach an empty room....

[Bald Eagle]

Regrettably everyone is following the media spin on this and being blinded by the 4% figure.

The reality is that the current Minister is trying to claw back many of the conditions of work that had been hard won over the past decade.

The salary of a teacher divided by the actual hours of work done is less than slave labour.

If this society wants to focus on penny pinching and not value the shapers of the next generation then we truly are sinking further toward a status as a third world country.

[MSTRS]

... the shapers of the next generation ....

Regrettably true. Scary.

[Swoop]

Good on them. I bet their management has already been given a healthy payrise this year.

Class sizes need to be part of their protest, coupled with the need to bring them down.
Consider 35 kids in a class. That gives 1min 42 seconds of direct contact per pupil per hour.

[SMOKEU]

Does anyone know what nurses get on average? Did I hear correctly that they want double (4%) what nurses got, not to mention the stats over the last x years...and they don't want to be held accountable for kids learning standards/achievements?! WTF.

My mum is a nurse and gets around NZ$100k a year (before tax).

[MSTRS]

Good on them. I bet their management has already been given a healthy payrise this year.

Class sizes need to be part of their protest, coupled with the need to bring them down.
Consider 35 kids in a class. That gives 1min 42 seconds of direct contact per pupil per hour.

Which is one of the areas that is so wrong with the present system.
Streaming, or banding, or whatever you want to call it is coming back. The brighter kids/classes get just the teacher. The dumber (or behaviour problem) kids/classes get a Teacher Aide to assist.
All this does is ensure the bright kids are on their own, and the bottom end kids get all the extras. Socialist mediocrity follows.

[avgas]

Teaching is a long time commitment.
Teach the kids what you want from the government, and wait 30+ years.

[Banditbandit]

Which is one of the areas that is so wrong with the present system.
Streaming, or banding, or whatever you want to call it is coming back. The brighter kids/classes get just the teacher. The dumber (or behaviour problem) kids/classes get a Teacher Aide to assist.
All this does is ensure the bright kids are on their own, and the bottom end kids get all the extras. Socialist mediocrity follows.

Do it the other way around and unemployment follows - with high crime, substance abuse, teen pregnancies and solo parents - all the evils you also rail against ...

Bright kids can learn from poor teachers - not so bright kids need better teachers ...

[MSTRS]

Do it the other way around and unemployment follows - with high crime, substance abuse, teen pregnancies and solo parents - all the evils you also rail against ...

Bright kids can learn from poor teachers - not so bright kids need better teachers ...

No dispute. But the top classes should get the same 'assistance'. Instead they rely on the cream floating to the top all by itself. Think how much more cream there would be if the playing field was level.

[Mully]

Do parents actually rely on the State system to educate their spawn soley??

No wonder the country's in the proverbial.....

Funnily enough, I looked at teaching once upon a time. The pay and the fact you weren't allowed to smack the living bejesus out of some little shit who desparately deserved a good choking put me off.

[slofox]

...the fact you weren't allowed to smack the living bejesus out of some little shit who desparately deserved a good choking put me off.

I used to do that anyway - on occasion...:whistle:

I also swore at the odd kid - usually by mistake. On the first day back after the summer holiday some kid was poking the borax at my class through the fence around the swimming pool. Without thinking I turned and said "look - just fuck off willya!"
The kid hooted with laughter and went running off shouting at the top of his bloody little voice "Mr T said FUCK OFF Mr T said FUCK OFF..." Little bastard...:rofl:

[Banditbandit]

No dispute. But the top classes should get the same 'assistance'. Instead they rely on the cream floating to the top all by itself. Think how much more cream there would be if the playing field was level.

The level playing field is a myth that only assists the cream ... to produce more cream at the top more effort needs to go to the mid and lower ends, not the top ...

Think of how big the gap between the top and the bottom wouild become if we did it your way - and then the social consequences of that ...

[Banditbandit]

Do parents actually rely on the State system to educate their spawn soley??

No wonder the country's in the proverbial.....

Funnily enough, I looked at teaching once upon a time. The pay and the fact you weren't allowed to smack the living bejesus out of some little shit who desparately deserved a good choking put me off.

The top students come from homes that value education and they tend to be helped by their parents ... which is why they are top students .. and probably have parents who were helped by the parents at school

The bottom students come from homes where education is not valued asnd where they get no help .. and possibly the opposite - so they and their children, etc etc .. stay at the bottom ...

[avgas]

The top students come from homes that value education and they tend to be helped by their parents ... which is why they are top students .. and probably have parents who were helped by the parents at school

The bottom students come from homes where education is not valued asnd where they get no help .. and possibly the opposite - so they and their children, etc etc .. stay at the bottom ...
Tis sad but true.
However this cycle does not have to continue. Many families have broken this loop.
However likewise it would not be such a good thing if ALL broke this loop. Society does need the lower caste. If we had a world full of managers we would be fucked.

[avgas]

yep sallary i believe,
oh and don't they get 13weeks/yr holliday
bloody hell that sounds pretty sweet.
I have had nearly 2 in the last 13 months.

[Banditbandit]

bloody hell that sounds pretty sweet.
I have had nearly 2 in the last 13 months.

Yeah ... naaa ... If you work 60 to 70 hours some weeks during term time .. put up with the crap and shit ... and the students as well ... you need a break or you'd go crazy and do something else ...

Teaching is the most fatiguing job I've ever had and without the breaks I wouldn't do it

[p.dath]

I'm sick of the teachers complaining.

I know plenty of people wanting a job at the moment. I would say most of them wouldn't care what they got paid - they just want a job.

And here we have a bunch of people, effectively guaranteed job security, wanting both an increase in their wages and even more of themselves to be employed, whilke the rest of the country struggles thanks to a global recession.

The teachers should be gratefull to have a guanateed pay check every week during these tough times.


I'm not sorry. They need to pull their heads in, and appreciate that they have it pretty sweet compared to many. Wait till times are a bit better before putting your hand out.

[MSTRS]

The level playing field is a myth that only assists the cream ... to produce more cream at the top more effort needs to go to the mid and lower ends, not the top ...

Think of how big the gap between the top and the bottom wouild become if we did it your way - and then the social consequences of that ...

Bullshit. If everyone gets a little help them across the board, everyone benefits.
Look - it's this simple...
Little William has an IQ of 130, he gets nothing. He has plenty of ability/potential.
Little Andrew has an IQ of 100, he gets nothing (or so little as to be useless). He 'might' get a job in a factory or office cleaner or something. If he's lucky.
Little Johnny has an IQ of 80, he gets 'plenty' extra help. He's 19, and can now do up his own shoe laces.

The point is the help is wasted being concentrated at the bottom end.

[merv]

Mrs merv teaches and works hours like I wouldn't ever want to contemplate.

One thing that irks her is that when she started teaching in the 70's a teacher was paid about the same as a backbench MP. Now those wonderful people in Parliament have made sure that there are more of them, to do less work each, and what do you know, they are now paid about double what a teacher is.

This is the problem, the jobs where there are plenty of people required - teachers, nurses, Police etc are always held back because any small % rise still costs the country a fortune, but it is so easy to give 120 MP's a rise, or CEO's that take huge rises to forever double their salaries while the share price of their organisations fall.

The parity has gone to hell as far as I can see and the teachers have a valid gripe for the work they do.

[avgas]

Bullshit. If everyone gets a little help them across the board, everyone benefits.
Look - it's this simple...
Little William has an IQ of 130, he gets nothing. He has plenty of ability/potential.
Little Andrew has an IQ of 100, he gets nothing (or so little as to be useless). He 'might' get a job in a factory or office cleaner or something. If he's lucky.
Little Johnny has an IQ of 80, he gets 'plenty' extra help. He's 19, and can now do up his own shoe laces.
The point is the help is wasted being concentrated at the bottom end.
There is also data that says if Johnny is not helped at all - there is just as much chance he too may succeed.
I was quite amazed by that.

Will see if I can dig up the study - but I did read this nearly 10 years ago.

[PrincessBandit]

There is also data that says if Johnny is not helped at all - there is just as much chance he too may succeed.
I was quite amazed by that.

Will see if I can dig up the study - but I did read this nearly 10 years ago.

I'd be very interested in reading that if you can find it. There are some who just do not want to be helped. At all. They have either big dreams but no inclination to put in the hard graft to achieve it, or no dreams and that doesn't bother them. Others will have the proverbial light bulb come on in their heads at some stage and realise that making effort themselves instead of expecting everyone else to do it for them makes achievement more realistic (and rewarding).

My pet hate is the quiet ones with moderate ability being left to sink or swim because the noisy wheels get all the attention. The quiet plodders tend to get no assistance because they don't draw attention to themselves and are therefore simply overlooked. Shouldn't happen, and a good teacher will endeavour to rectify it, but with so many little sods to deal with it's not an easy task!

[John_H]

i heard on the radio that the 'revolting' teachers get between $27-$35/hr.
tuff life.

p.s. can't say i envy them.

That is based on the 5 hour school day, it doesn't take into account all the hours teacher work before and after and during holidays. I know my wife is a teacher, it is a full on job which is not paid enough. The workload is getting hugely bigger and so are the class sizes.

[Bald Eagle]

My wife also teaches secondary and the class time /teaching is probably less than 15% of her working hours. Her effective hourly rate is a single digit.

[Banditbandit]

Bullshit. If everyone gets a little help them across the board, everyone benefits.
Look - it's this simple...
Little William has an IQ of 130, he gets nothing. He has plenty of ability/potential.
Little Andrew has an IQ of 100, he gets nothing (or so little as to be useless). He 'might' get a job in a factory or office cleaner or something. If he's lucky.
Little Johnny has an IQ of 80, he gets 'plenty' extra help. He's 19, and can now do up his own shoe laces.

The point is the help is wasted being concentrated at the bottom end.

Bullshit example.

Have a look at another of my post - it depends on the home life and how much the family values education ...

Someone wuith an IQ below 100 (even though I think that's a bullshit measure of nothing ...) is never going to be a high achiever, no matter how much effort is put in .. and in schools it probably isn't ...

[MSTRS]

Bullshit example.

Have a look at another of my post - it depends on the home life and how much the family values education ...

Someone wuith an IQ below 100 (even though I think that's a bullshit measure of nothing ...) is never going to be a high achiever, no matter how much effort is put in .. and in schools it probably isn't ...

My point is that the extra assistance provided by TAs is almost always directed at the 'dumb' classes. Which to me is a waste of a valuable resource.

[gijoe1313]

Stone the flamin' crows, flipp'n Nora! Didn't think such a big storm in a tea cup would occur over this!

All I know is that fortunately coming from a line of hard working chinks holding down several jobs at once, everything is relative. Being a treacher must have been the singular most insane thing I have done - since I already work enough not being a treacher!

Feck, all I know is that there the vast majority of treachers are committed to their charges and try their darndest to do their bit in getting some semblance of edjumcacation gestating.

Like all parts of society, there are some feckers who need to be shoved into a holding pen with the dregs that are in the school system, good, bad and ugly treachers abound.

I know based on experience, if I took a few of the dropkicks around the back and put a bullet into their head, would save some innocent citizens some heart wrenching grief later on.

What this gubbermint is trying to do seems to smack of shooting itself in the foot and then cutting off it's nose to complete the whack around. Like anything else in life, you can leave, put up or shut up. Being the filthy biker scum I am, I always take the rebel view!

March on good people, I for one will welcome the chance to air out all my eccentric costumes to wear! :whistle:

So much for just having a bit of a laff and being bolshie about things! :woohoo:

[slofox]

I'm sick of the teachers complaining.

I know plenty of people wanting a job at the moment. I would say most of them wouldn't care what they got paid - they just want a job.

And here we have a bunch of people, effectively guaranteed job security, wanting both an increase in their wages and even more of themselves to be employed, whilke the rest of the country struggles thanks to a global recession.

The teachers should be gratefull to have a guanateed pay check every week during these tough times.


I'm not sorry. They need to pull their heads in, and appreciate that they have it pretty sweet compared to many. Wait till times are a bit better before putting your hand out.


I would suggest, Mr dath, that perhaps you might try teaching for yourself...

[MSTRS]

I know based on experience, if I took a few of the dropkicks around the back and put a bullet into their head, would save some innocent citizens some heart wrenching grief later on.



And that's just some of the teachers. Right?
Of course there are some gems out there too. Reasonably rare, though.
Feck, I don't think anyone should be allowed in a classroom until they've seen a bit of life. Instead, we get some who go to school and learn what The Man wants them to know, then on to Teachers Training College, then back into a classroom to teach the little innocents (!!) what The Man wants them to know...

[gijoe1313]

My oath, I know what you mean MSTRS, I was chatting to a bunch of them fresh faced newbies on practicum today. Barely out of senior high! I was a dodgy old coot before I threw myself under the wheels of the edjumacation system.

I has moar interesting work stories to regale the kids with! :whistle:

[The Pastor]

Sorry, can't seem to figure this one out...

Why do teachers need a pay rise? Most people i've spoken to haven't had any pay rises for the last two years, due to the recession.....

[KiWiP]

After a four year degree (with honours) and a year teacher training starting salary is 45K before tax. A nurse starts on 45 with an ordinary degree (3years).
OECD report 'Education at a glance" showed that NZ teachers were at the lower end of the salary scale and the higher end of the hours worked when compared to most other countries.

But and I do say BUT this is not about salary. There are many reasons why someone may enter the teaching profession but money is not one of them. The money is crap and it probably always will be. We live with it.

The main thrust of this campaign is about teacher recruitment and retention. We are woefully short of a large number of specialist teachers in all key subjects (Science, Technology, English, Maths and more) and the average age of teachers is steadily rising (so more teachers retiring and less coming in) The conditions that teachers work in is key to ensuring we maintain a steady (and high) population of quality teachers. Proof of this is in the original presentation to the Government in the May PPTA Claim (http://www.ppta.org.nz/index.php/collectiveagreements/doc_download/861-ppta-stca-claims-presentation-3-may-2010) (which the then Education Secretary Karen Sewell refused to meet with us! go figure).
If you care to read the claims you will find that they center around issues which will enhance our effectiveness as teachers in and out of the class room. Salary is one issue in a 26 page document (page 12 if you haters want to find out why 4% and not the 20% that would bring us in line with Australia/UK/USA etc).

Finally (Phew) please listen to the government when they are interviewed (Key on salary) (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/video/news/video.cfm?c_id=1501138&gal_cid=1501138&gallery_id=113916). They keep harping on about 4%. We don't. They keep talking about the police and nurses accepting lower settlements. Fair do's but they earn more than us anyway for less qualifications (Police - no qualifications and $57K after a 19week training period where they get paid $38K(pro rata).

The government is refusing to address the issues that matter to the future of your children. Please don't just listen to the Governments rhetoric and flaming, listen as well to the teachers who are working to provide the best future they can for your children and New Zealand.

Value Education
Value Schools
Value Students
Value Teachers

[p.dath]

There is also data that says if Johnny is not helped at all - there is just as much chance he too may succeed.
I was quite amazed by that.

Will see if I can dig up the study - but I did read this nearly 10 years ago.

The "Mad Butcher" would be a perfect example of this. Not the best academically at school but a huge success in life.

[p.dath]

That is based on the 5 hour school day, it doesn't take into account all the hours teacher work before and after and during holidays. I know my wife is a teacher, it is a full on job which is not paid enough. The workload is getting hugely bigger and so are the class sizes.

My experience tends to suggest "new" teachers put in this effort, because they have to build up resources. Experienced teachers already have the resources to go, and don't have to invest this extra time. basically they are doing nearly the same thing every year. Pretty easy really.

[p.dath]

I would suggest, Mr dath, that perhaps you might try teaching for yourself...

I have done instruction in the past.

What I don't do is stay somewhere I'm not happy about it and then bitch about it constantly.

[p.dath]

After a four year degree (with honours) and a year teacher training starting salary is 45K before tax. A nurse starts on 45 with an ordinary degree (3years).

This tired old argument. The grass is greener on the other side of the fence story.

Some poor sad teacher seems someone else getting paid more, so they suddenly think they should be paid more. Doctors get paid even more. So what?

If your not happy getting paid $45k for a junior entry level job - then for gods sake go and do something else. No one is forcing them to accept the $45k. They are free to pursue any career they like.

[MSTRS]

The "Mad Butcher" would be a perfect example of this. Not the best academically at school but a huge success in life.

Likewise, Bob Jones.

Proof that there are always those that can make a success of themselves, despite the lack of early opportunity, or indeed what their schooling did or didn't do for them. They are the exception in the normal scheme of things.

[avgas]

The "Mad Butcher" would be a perfect example of this. Not the best academically at school but a huge success in life.
Richard Branson comes to mind.....

[avgas]

They are the exception in the normal scheme of things.
Yes. But they are the exception to ALL normal things, not just those whom went without.
When you think about it there are millions walking around with higher education.......but earn less than the local, "low decile (sp)" individual.

Extra help at the bottom is required. But not to make these individuals succeed (as this only comes to personal drive). But to educate them enough that they have less children then their parents had.

Either that or we take the China approach.

[avgas]

After a four year degree (with honours) and a year teacher training starting salary is 45K before tax. A nurse starts on 45 with an ordinary degree (3years).
Its a bit hard to pull the wo-is-me over many of us here. Many of us are from an education background, or know of someone whom is.
5 years study is not too bad. I am rolling up to nearly a decade of the stuff (full time for only 5 of these - other 5 part-time). Bits-of-paper do not equal $. However they can help with authority.
You have to understand that you have picked a career where salary is not the goal. Neither is nursing, however there is more requirement for new nurses - and NZ is saturated with teachers. Some of which jump at any opportunity to get paid full time.
You have fucked yourself quite good if you only did this for money. If you want more money - do it like the rest of us, get a second job or study to the next level or work yourself into a high paid area (lots of call for physics, and similar teachers - starting pay $55K).

[MSTRS]

Extra help at the bottom is required. But not to make these individuals succeed (as this only comes to personal drive). But to educate them enough that they have less children then their parents had.



A waste of time. You've heard the saying "Give me the child until age 7..."? 2 years of schooling (from 5) isn't going to make a difference. And sex ed doesn't start until age 11 or so.
No - all school is for is to turn out young adults with a bit of paper that says they have reached a certain level of academic achievement. And the extra help should be available for all levels, not just the level who are unlikely to 'succeed' because they had help.

[avgas]

Sorry, can't seem to figure this one out...
Why do teachers need a pay rise? Most people i've spoken to haven't had any pay rises for the last two years, due to the recession.....
Ditto - I have not.

[avgas]

Value Education - You first, it is your job to get excited about it.
Value Schools - You first, it is your job to instill pride in schools, be proud of where you work
Value Students - We do, this is why they go to school rather than daycare
Value Teachers - WHY!
What value have you added? I am not saying that you are not. But you can't simply say "Value Us".
Tell us where you have added value. Tell us where you have not just regurgitated syllabus.

You would be surprised by what a student will say to his parents about the teacher when they come home and. Likewise you would be surprised what happens when a customer SEEs value in value in something.

[MSTRS]

Reminds me of something that happened a few years ago...
One of our kids was, shall we say, not too bright. Basically, he was bottom of the class in every area. After 10 years of school, and failing, he got to the point where he couldn't really be bothered trying anymore. Afterall, who else would persevere (and fail) for 10 years, and not reach the give-up point?
Anyway, at a teacher-interview evening, one particular teacher sat there smugly berating him to his mother for his lack of achievement and attitude. Well...
That teacher got carpeted in short order. Along the lines of there was no failure on the child's part. No, the failure lay at the feet of all the teachers who failed to lead the child to some success. Think about it...6+ through primary school, at least the same through intermediate and probably 18-20 through high school. 30+ opportunities to make a difference. We even paid for sessions at Kip McGrath, with limited success. It is their job, and what they are paid for, to do this for all students. Not everyone learns the same way, and it is part of the teachers job to know this and explore the different options for the best individual outcome/s. So - the failure lay with the teaching profession, and what were they going to do about it.
Strange...had little trouble after that.

[slofox]

What I don't do is stay somewhere I'm not happy about it and then bitch about it constantly.

This is a valid point.

I got out of teaching after eleven years. Not because I didn't like teaching kids - that was one of the best things I ever did. I got out because of the system I had to work in, combined with the fact that I got paid the same as the lazy bastards who just came along to school each day and slacked through. I had a conscience about teaching - I felt the responsibility that was placed upon me with these little kids. I figured I owed them my best and I always strove to do that. Unlike some of my colleagues...

When it comes down to it, teaching is an essential profession. We HAVE to have teachers. Just as we have to have other professions like medicine etc. We should make it an attractive profession.

As it is, as a teacher, one is expected to shoulder the blame for a lot of poor parenting and one is expected to put a lot of that poor parenting right. Which in many cases is simply NOT possible. Basically, teachers cop a lot of flak for things they cannot fix.

I always worked on the principle that I couldn't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. All I could do was try to realise the available potential of each of my students. If they had fuck all potential, I could not "make" more.

Having said all that, I still miss teaching thirty years down the track.

[MSTRS]

....All I could do was try to realise the available potential of each of my students....

If only you had the above pupil in your class...

[slofox]

If only you had the above pupil in your class...

I would've given it my best shot...

[p.dath]

Likewise, Bob Jones.

Proof that there are always those that can make a success of themselves, despite the lack of early opportunity, or indeed what their schooling did or didn't do for them. They are the exception in the normal scheme of things.

I think we need to be carefull not to confuse academic capability with "success".

There are plenty of things that just require effort to be a "success". Knowing how to use newton-raphson does mean you will be a success.


When it comes down to it, teaching is an essential profession. We HAVE to have teachers. Just as we have to have other professions like medicine etc. We should make it an attractive profession.

We have to make it an attractive profession? If everyone became a teacher tomorrow we'd be in deep shit. We need a mix of professions to make the world go around, and there is no reason to single out one and make it especially shiny and pretty looking.

Perhaps this goes to the heart of the issue. Teachers are over-valuing their position in society. Maybe we need more carpenters to make the pedestals shorter.

[John_H]

My experience tends to suggest "new" teachers put in this effort, because they have to build up resources. Experienced teachers already have the resources to go, and don't have to invest this extra time. basically they are doing nearly the same thing every year. Pretty easy really.

Sorry not like that, my wife has been a teacher since 1998 and still puts in heaps of effort and time. You can't recycle the same material all the time, as the curriculum is constantly changing and it is a new class every year with different learning needs and styles. What exactly makes you an authority on this?

[mashman]

We need a mix of professions to make the world go around, and there is no reason to single out one and make it especially shiny and pretty looking.


So why not value teachers the same as the higher paid members of the civil service? After all, you wouldn't want any 1 profession to stand out would you :)

[p.dath]

Sorry not like that, my wife has been a teacher since 1998 and still puts in heaps of effort and time. You can't recycle the same material all the time, as the curriculum is constantly changing and it is a new class every year with different learning needs and styles. What exactly makes you an authority on this?

My ex wife, who was a teacher, and many years observing teachers.

[p.dath]

So why not value teachers the same as the higher paid members of the civil service? After all, you wouldn't want any 1 profession to stand out would you :)

Because they aren't being dumb enough to ask for a pay rise in a recession.

[SVboy]

Ladies and Gentlemen-we have an experienced expert in the house. Thank god!!

QUOTE=p.dath;1129861342]I'm sick of the teachers complaining.

I know plenty of people wanting a job at the moment. I would say most of them wouldn't care what they got paid - they just want a job.

And here we have a bunch of people, effectively guaranteed job security, wanting both an increase in their wages and even more of themselves to be employed, whilke the rest of the country struggles thanks to a global recession.

The teachers should be gratefull to have a guanateed pay check every week during these tough times.


I'm not sorry. They need to pull their heads in, and appreciate that they have it pretty sweet compared to many. Wait till times are a bit better before putting your hand out.[/QUOTE]

[mashman]

Because they aren't being dumb enough to ask for a pay rise in a recession.

Ok, so you'd rather avoid answering the question, I can see why :). Perhaps the govt shoulda looked after the teachers when the good times rolled... then they wouldn't have to ask AGAIN!

[SVboy]

Mr Dath-try observing some of my classes some time-better still try and impart some of your wisdom to my charges. If you dont think my fellow teachers and I are not worth our conditions, then you are just not being realistic!!

[PrincessBandit]

Mr Dath-try observing some of my classes some time-better still try and impart some of your wisdom to my charges. If you dont think my fellow teachers and I are not worth our conditions, then you are just not being realistic!!

I wrote a lengthy post just before, quite pissed off by some of the posts I'd read just earlier, but deleted it all to simply to write I agree with you!

[Banditbandit]

I wrote a lengthy post just before, quite pissed off by some of the posts I'd read just earlier, but deleted it all to simply to write I agree with you!

Yeah .. doesn't it piss you off when no-one values our profession - but everybody expects us to deliver results ...

You know you're a teacher when ...

Your profession has just been slagged off by someone who also says "I wouldn't have your job for the world ... "

You think there should be a Prozac salt lick in the staff room ...

[John_H]

My ex wife, who was a teacher, and many years observing teachers.

Probably dumped ya for not valuing her and the work she does.

[avgas]

You think there should be a Prozac salt lick in the staff room ...
Ahhh you just reminded me about the "laxative incident" at school.
Classics never die. And that kid never graduated.

[avgas]

no-one values our profession - but everybody expects us to deliver results .
Don't you guys get taught?
1) Results
2) Reward

Truth be told I do think some teachers need a pay rise. But nationally? Sorry just like every group in the world, there are morons amongst teachers.
But then again I don't believe in unions either.

[Banditbandit]

Ahhh you just reminded me about the "laxative incident" at school.
Classics never die. And that kid never graduated.

Hey .. you can't leave that story hanging like that .. tell more ...

[PrincessBandit]

Yeah .. doesn't it piss you off when no-one values our profession - but everybody expects us to deliver results ...

You know you're a teacher when ...

Your profession has just been slagged off by someone who also says "I wouldn't have your job for the world ... "
There is one other profession which regularly gets that on here!! Now, I wonder which it might be.....


Ahhh you just reminded me about the "laxative incident" at school.
Classics never die. And that kid never graduated.

hahahaha, when I was at school it was the kid who stole a piece of lithium (I think it was) from one of the science labs and when faced with being caught with it, dumped it in one of the bowls in the boys toilets. Might not have been lithium - but it had to be stored under oil and was very reactive to water :eek: Can't remember what became of that boy.

[MisterD]

combined with the fact that I got paid the same as the lazy bastards who just came along to school each day and slacked through.

This is the nub of the gist IMO. If teachers want the ability to earn more, then lets measure their performance and reward them accordingly. Of course, this is complete anathema to the unions, who exist to protect the lazy, the ineffectual and the downright incompetent.

[slofox]

Might not have been lithium - but it had to be stored under oil and was very reactive to water :eek: Can't remember what became of that boy.

Prolly sodium or maybe phosphorus...

[p.dath]

Ok, so you'd rather avoid answering the question, I can see why :). Perhaps the govt shoulda looked after the teachers when the good times rolled... then they wouldn't have to ask AGAIN!

But the Government did look after them. They had a pay rise when the times were good!

They have come back to the table again asking for more. They are not acting in good faith.

[gijoe1313]

Actually p.dath makes good points, someone always has to question actions and the integrity. This is how a robust democratic society should work!

Without voice in opposition, how do we ensure that no trenchant behaviour that is odious or undermining does not creep through?

By asking question and thinking for yourself, this is the goal of life long learning. Good on ya p.dath, your teachers would be proud, but also possibly rolling their eyes at the same time! :lol:

And yeah, there are plenty of loose cannons that need to be turfed out of the profession - but again, from my observations they are in the minority. The majority of course are doing what they should be as a professional in their choice of vocation.

But, bloody hell, someone had to stop the gubbermint trying to knee-cap us and pull the rug out from under us at the same time!

[slofox]

then lets measure their performance and reward them accordingly.

Not that easy to do. What defines "performance"? As I said earlier, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. It is not realistic to expect every kid to achieve the same level of competence in anything - whether it be intellectual or physical. Not everyone can run a 10 second 100metres. Not every kid is a genius. A teacher can only realise the potential that the kid has - not create more potential. Learning potential is really in the hands of the parents in the early childhood years. Unfortunately there are a lot of parents out there who have no idea about this...as any early school teacher will tell you.

Maybe what we need to measure is the teachers effort rather than the kids he/she teaches...

Even that leaves room for error. As a senior teacher, I had to deal with a guy who put in lots of effort but was totally fucking useless because he just plain had NO empathy with kids. They ran riot in his class despite the hours of preparation he did. I was faced with the task of keeping him from getting kicked out. I thought he SHOULD have been kicked out but the principal got a little shitty about that attitude. So I did save his arse. And six months later he was just as crappy as ever...

When I was a teacher, (I taught primary BTW - year three mostly) the thing I appreciated most was good parenting. Kids who came to school ready to learn. Kids who had been communicated with, kids who could interact with others. Kids with open, rather than closed minds. Those kids were a pleasure to deal with and we had great times together. I didn't have to "teach" those kids - rather I just had to let them learn.

When all is said and done, the hardest things teachers have to deal with are the results of poor parenting.

Just my ignorant opinion you unnerstand...

[p.dath]

Not that easy to do. What defines "performance"?

If I recall correctly, the national standards created a framework to measure schools and teachers in a comparitive fashion did they not?

Pretty sure the teacher bitched about having themselves measured as well.

[mashman]

But the Government did look after them. They had a pay rise when the times were good!

They have come back to the table again asking for more. They are not acting in good faith.

I'm sure they got what they wanted last time too (cost of living risen much despite the recession?) :shifty: Perhaps if they had been given what they originally asked for (perhaps they were looking long term :)), they would not have been asking for more now ;) No government just agrees with the initial amount when money is being requested

[slofox]

If I recall correctly, the national standards created a framework to measure schools and teachers in a comparitive fashion did they not?

Pretty sure the teacher bitched about having themselves measured as well.

I might be wrong here, pd, but I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make regarding "measuring performance". Have another look at what I said and then apply that to the National Standards regime.

What National Standards do is set arbitrary levels to be achieved by all pupils regardless of ability. They give no indication of how much of a kid's potential has been realised. At best they measure only one aspect of schooling. At worst they create "hoop-jumping" teaching. It's like expecting all 20 year old adults to be able to do the 10 second 100 metres - as I've already said, that is not realistic.

Frankly I was quite happy with inspectors. At least they watched you in action and had a chance to assess your interaction with the students, the classroom atmosphere, the attitudes of the class and then relate that to achievement by students. Sure it was a less than perfect system but it had the advantage of being comparitive as well as realistic.

Finally I would have to say that I believe our education system is very narrow in its approach to learning. It does not suit every pupil. It is restrictive, linear and closed-minded. There is one measure of success only (just like National Standards) in a field that should allow for a huge range of abilities. I believe this gets worse as you progress through the system. The best education in my opinion takes place at the earliest levels. It goes downhill from there. For many students, high school is like jail (it was for me). And that does not provide good education.

[MisterD]

Not that easy to do. What defines "performance"? As I said earlier, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. It is not realistic to expect every kid to achieve the same level of competence in anything - whether it be intellectual or physical.

I've been hearing this argument for about thirty years. Mum was a maths teacher, Dad an HR Director...

How hard can it really be to measure the progress of a group of kids over a school year? I reckon it's pretty easy because the unions don't offer an argument that it's difficult - they argue that it sets teacher versus teacher in some kind of death match, and forces them to work against one another, when they should be working together! Complete bollocks, doesn't happen between sales reps in the same company, won't happen between teachers.

[p.dath]

Ok, so you'd rather avoid answering the question, I can see why :). Perhaps the govt shoulda looked after the teachers when the good times rolled... then they wouldn't have to ask AGAIN!

Ok directly - I value MP's and Back Benchers more than teachers.


Yeah .. doesn't it piss you off when no-one values our profession - but everybody expects us to deliver results ...

You earn respect - not demand it. Something it seems teachers have missed.

People value professions by what they add. If teachers don't feel respected then perhaps they should take a closer look at themselves.

[Squiggles]

Seems many think along these lines (http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/opinion/editorials/4053637/Editorial-Planet-Earth-to-the-PPTA)

[KiWiP]

Ok directly - I value MP's and Back Benchers more than teachers.

It would appear you value anyone above teachers (something to do with your ex I'm thinking) I am concerned that you value the likes of David Garrett, Winston Peters, Richard Nixon, Berlusconi, Hitler (politicians) of whom you know their transgressions over me (teacher) who you don't (2 speeding tickets over 30 years of driving - now you do)
If you have some personal grudge against teachers because of something that has happened get therapy or let it go. If it's politically motivated please go back to my earlier post and read it "IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY" We're not winging about our lot, The comparison to the police and nurses 'wage' claim was raised by the government. My post was intended to put their claims in context.



You earn respect - not demand it. Something it seems teachers have missed.
Very true, in my case having left school with nothing (my fault not my teachers) I worked my way up from the factory floor to a reasonable management position and enough money to pay my way through university and teacher training college. I strive on a daily basis to ensure all pupils in my care are aware that if they make the wrong choices life is hard, the right choices life is much more satisfying (though not necessarily easy). I follow the national curriculum and prepare them for NCEA exams that give them more choice in life. I engage them in discussions geared towards an awareness of the world at large beyond the school doors. I delight in hearing of their successes after school and commiserate and mentor where there are dissapointments. If you're talking about earning your respect I obviously don't have it and quite frankly I don't want it. If I am respected by narrow minded, ignorant, narcissists then I'll know I've 'missed' something. I'll content myself with the respect I have earned from my pupils and their parents while teaching.


People value professions by what they add. If teachers don't feel respected then perhaps they should take a closer look at themselves.
Ah one thing we agree on. Give me two students at the beginning of the year I'll educate one and not the other then measure what has been added at the end of the year. We do take a closer look at ourselves, every test, assessment, exam result presents our triumphs and failures. We adjust, refine, develop and grow our output and the final exam results rise year on year. There are very few industries/companies that engage in such introspection.

Teaching like any profession has its fair share of brilliance through to rubbish with the a majority in between striving to do the best they can. We know we're not perfect but to do the best we can we do need the support of everyone outside the school gates. If you think we are rubbish then please be creative and proactive in change. Support reforms that are designed to attract more and better quality graduates (preferably with some work experience). Then you can move on to whine about some other area of your less than perfect world.

[Forest]

My mother was a teacher for 20 years, then she did a Master's degree in Educational Administration and become a senior ERO officer before retiring.

According to her, most teachers are competent professionals who are worth every penny that they're paid. The problem is that there is a significant number of teachers who simply aren't very good.

But you'll never hear unions like the NZEI acknowledge this. They're very careful to present 'teachers' as an homogeneous group, and they vociferously oppose any changes that would allow teachers to be individually ranked. This is why they oppose the introduction of National standards so strongly - they fear it will create a de facto ranking table of teacher performance.

It's a shame really. The unions argue that they're motivated to achieve the best possible educational outcome, but by allowing bad teachers to remain in the system they are actually causing far more damage.

[Mully]

We're not winging about our lot

What? That's not what the chanting mass outside my work indicated the other afternoon.


Teaching like any profession has its fair share of brilliance through to rubbish with the a majority in between striving to do the best they can.

OK, so you're in the system. How do "we" (as a country) reward the best, assist the "strivers" to be better, and remove the rubbish?

Across the board increases don't seem fair to me - to anyone, really. It's an insult to the best teachers that they get the same as the rubbish teachers, and not an indication to the rubbish that they need to improve.

[PrincessBandit]

My mother was a teacher for 20 years, then she did a Master's degree in Educational Administration and become a senior ERO officer before retiring.

According to her, most teachers are competent professionals who are worth every penny that they're paid. The problem is that there is a significant number of teachers who simply aren't very good.

But you'll never hear unions like the NZEI acknowledge this. They're very careful to present 'teachers' as an homogeneous group, and they vociferously oppose any changes that would allow teachers to be individually ranked. This is why they oppose the introduction of National standards so strongly - they fear it will create a de facto ranking table of teacher performance.

It's a shame really. The unions argue that they're motivated to achieve the best possible educational outcome, but by allowing bad teachers to remain in the system they are actually causing far more damage.

I think this man is onto something!

But even a wonderful teacher who is innovative, caring, enthusiastic and inspiring will still not reach some determined non-achievers.

[p.dath]

It would appear you value anyone above teachers (something to do with your ex I'm thinking) I am concerned that you value the likes of David Garrett, Winston Peters, Richard Nixon, Berlusconi, Hitler (politicians) of whom you know their transgressions over me (teacher) who you don't (2 speeding tickets over 30 years of driving - now you do)

Please, lets not start that game. There are plenty of teachers who have been caught red handed. Has been a little while since we've had a child molestation case by a teacher though.

Just because a small number of people in a profession do something bad does not devalue the whole profession.


If you have some personal grudge against teachers because of something that has happened get therapy or let it go. If it's politically motivated please go back to my earlier post and read it "IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY" We're not winging about our lot, The comparison to the police and nurses 'wage' claim was raised by the government. My post was intended to put their claims in context.

I'm sick of every few years having teachers strike and demand more money. Constantly. Perhaps they could join the real world, and realise that pay rises are not an automatic entitlement, and that throwing the toys out of the cot and striking everytime they don't get what they want is in fact not normal working practice.

Lets put your test to the claim - its not about the money. I want the union to drop their demand for more money. Go on, do it. Prove it's not about the money by stopping demands for the money.

Won't happen.


Very true, in my case having left school with nothing (my fault not my teachers) I worked my way up from the factory floor to a reasonable management position and enough money to pay my way through university and teacher training college. I strive on a daily basis to ensure all pupils in my care are aware that if they make the wrong choices life is hard, the right choices life is much more satisfying (though not necessarily easy). I follow the national curriculum and prepare them for NCEA exams that give them more choice in life. I engage them in discussions geared towards an awareness of the world at large beyond the school doors. I delight in hearing of their successes after school and commiserate and mentor where there are dissapointments. If you're talking about earning your respect I obviously don't have it and quite frankly I don't want it. If I am respected by narrow minded, ignorant, narcissists then I'll know I've 'missed' something. I'll content myself with the respect I have earned from my pupils and their parents while teaching.

Your just talking about a normal days work that every other worker has to do. I don't hear about you doing anything particularly special compared to anyone else to suggest Teachers should be getting a pay rise in a recession - when a lot of other people just hope to have a job. It's great you find some enjoyment doing your job. Pretty standard really for any job.



Teaching like any profession has its fair share of brilliance through to rubbish with the a majority in between striving to do the best they can. We know we're not perfect but to do the best we can we do need the support of everyone outside the school gates.

Why do you need the support of everyone outside the school gates? Does the local plumber and electrician need this "special support"? Nope. They just get on with their job.

Something teachers should consider doing.

There is nothing special about being a teacher that demands respect or gives teachers any special authority. We all have an inportant part to play in society. I very much get the impression teachers have a very inflated view of their importance in life.

[KiWiP]

Please, lets not start that game.
OK

There are plenty of teachers who have been caught red handed. Has been a little while since we've had a child molestation case by a teacher though.

Let's throw something irrelevant and inflammatory into the discussion.
There are exceptional network engineers on this site and some of them may fiddle with kids but there's been no evidence for sometime that they have.


I'm sick of every few years having teachers strike and demand more money. Constantly.
few=3, many=9 which is when the last industrial action needed to be taken. From there a collective agreement was settled by both parties. This has been negotiated every 3 years. A negotiation of this type for one of the largest employee sectors in the country is never going to be straight forward. Entering a negotiation is not whining, bitching or crying like spoilt brats. In this round the government has written off many of the terms of previous contracts and on many occasions refused to sit around the table and negotiate. The day of strike was because the government is refusing to negotiate.


Lets put your test to the claim - its not about the money.
Already done. It's in the link {THE LINK IS HERE} (http://www.ppta.org.nz/index.php/collectiveagreements/doc_download/861-ppta-stca-claims-presentation-3-may-2010)I provided earlier but you won't go there will you because you are secure in your beliefs and will not change them. You will not shut up harping on at the injustice you see in a body of professionals protesting about the damage that is being done to the recruitment and retention of a highly trained body of people (and please don't reply with "yes but many people are highly trained whahwhahwhah" it gets very wearing) who are backbone to the future successes of this great country. You cannot have it both ways employ anybody on the cheap and expect the highest quality.


Your (sic) just talking about a normal days work
No I'm not I have worked in many sectors, both manual and cerebral and teaching is the most challenging thing I have ever done. But it's great and job satisfaction is not standard for any job. As you said in an earlier post you know loads of people who would be happy of any job, especially with a guaranteed income and long holidays. Great tell them to train as a teacher and they're in. Or tell them to train as a network engineer apparently it's great and I understand they're not too picky who they employ (What I mean is it doesn't matter if you have a criminal conviction whereas you can't be a teacher if you do)


Why do you need the support of everyone outside the school gates?
Because people like you seek to undermine the good work that teachers do with your negative, destructive stance.


... just get on with their job. Something teachers should consider doing.
That's just it we do. What did we do when we got home on strike day? marking, planning, rewriting lesson plans to catch up what the students had lost out on. We maybe entering an unwelcome period of industrial upset but whatever the outcome we are still looking out for the pupils in our charge.

[p.dath]

Already done. It's in the link {THE LINK IS HERE} (http://www.ppta.org.nz/index.php/collectiveagreements/doc_download/861-ppta-stca-claims-presentation-3-may-2010)I provided earlier but you won't go there will you because you are secure in your beliefs and will not change them.

I'll come back later on the rest, but I read the PDF. Claim 5.1 is seeking a 4% rise in the base scale?

Sounds like your asking for a pay rise to me.

It also says less that half of secondary school teachers earn more than $69k. Seriously. That's a lot of cash! And the teachers are still complaining? And in a recession.

Please keep talking. The more you speak the more the public will revolt against the teachers unions demands. The more I read the less I respect the organisation.

Talk about raping the nation.

[PrincessBandit]

Talk about raping the nation.

Pity you have to be so inflammatory with that comment. I normally respect (or at least not pass judgement on) the things you say.

Sad choice of words from you.

[Smifffy]

I'll come back later on the rest, but I read the PDF. Claim 5.1 is seeking a 4% rise in the base scale?

Sounds like your asking for a pay rise to me.

It also says less that half of secondary school teachers earn more than $69k. Seriously. That's a lot of cash! And the teachers are still complaining? And in a recession.

Please keep talking. The more you speak the more the public will revolt against the teachers unions demands. The more I read the less I respect the organisation.

Talk about raping the nation.

#
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to p.dath again.

Oh 2 in a row in the same thread!!

[Smifffy]

I deserve a pay rise too.

No, really I do.

My Boss thinks I should count myself lucky I have a job earning what I am.

He also realises that if he isn't competitive with regard to the current market for my albeit limited skill set, then he may need to find a replacement.

the challenge for both he and I is to understand the market.

[p.dath]

Let's throw something irrelevant and inflammatory into the discussion.

I'm glad you got my point. Ditto with politicians.


few=3, many=9 which is when the last industrial action needed to be taken. From there a collective agreement was settled by both parties. This has been negotiated every 3 years. A negotiation of this type for one of the largest employee sectors in the country is never going to be straight forward. Entering a negotiation is not whining, bitching or crying like spoilt brats. In this round the government has written off many of the terms of previous contracts and on many occasions refused to sit around the table and negotiate. The day of strike was because the government is refusing to negotiate.

You don't get it. It's a recession. Now is not the time for asking for more. I know lots of people who have effectively taken pay cuts. The tax payers of NZ - which is who you are negotiating with - have less to negotiate with.



What I mean is it doesn't matter if you have a criminal conviction whereas you can't be a teacher if you do)

Just by comparison, my qualifications last for two years and I have to re-sit them every 24 months or loose them. For the kind of work I do I have to cleared by the SIS. I can't do my job with a criminal conviction. Hell even a DUI is enough for me to loose my job. And they do a complete security re-check every 5 years.

But this is not about me, or how hard my job is. Just pointing out that becoming a teacher is no more difficult than many other professions. Lot of jobs, including teachers, are subject to criminal history checks.


Because people like you seek to undermine the good work that teachers do with your negative, destructive stance.

Touche, the teachers are doing that very well themselves. They are even doing a great job publising it.


That's just it we do. What did we do when we got home on strike day? marking, planning, rewriting lesson plans to catch up what the students had lost out on. We maybe entering an unwelcome period of industrial upset but whatever the outcome we are still looking out for the pupils in our charge.

That is probably like the majority of professionals I know. There job doesn't end at 5pm. Working at home and putting in extra hours is expected. It's all part of the deal. It's just what you have to do for your job.

Once again, I don't see anything special about being a teacher to warrant the industrial action.

[KiWiP]

I'll come back later on the rest,
No you won't and you know it


but I read the PDF. Claim 5.1 is seeking a 4% rise in the base scale?
yes you did, well done, go to the top of the class.

Relish the moment...

...and now go back to the bottom

It's not what you know that's important here it's what what you don't.
I've paraphrased for the hard of thinking (that's you D'Ath)...
He is right though, tucked right in the middle of all these nasty claims is a claim for 4% YES WE KNOW THIS! AND ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY!!!

You might want to look at a few of the claims for investement and encouragement of managers up through the system. My god Marx is rotating in the tub. Or some relating to health and safety, or provision of standard equipment (e.g. wet weather gear or laptops) But please, please, please, take on board that these claims are all founded on the sole purpose of ensuring that the students in our care get the best education that a 1st world 21st century nation should provide.

The Claims
1 Professional support for teachers
Claim 1.1 Define principles of best practice regarding professional learning and development (PLD) and outline processes and consultation for establishing when, what and how PLD occurs in schools and link to other professional development clauses in STCA
Claim 1.2 Re-establish the senior/specialist subject advisors (SSAs)
Claim 1.3 Increase sabbaticals for teachers by 40
Claim 1.4 Introduce 10 sabbaticals specifically for senior managers
2 Mentoring for teachers
Claim 2.1 Establish a work group on mentoring for teachers
Claim 2.2 Professional support /supervision/ mentoring for senior managers and leaders
Claim 2.3 Beginning teacher support: HOD time allowance is extended to support PRT’s in their second year
3 Teacher and student learning conditions
Claim 3.1 Class size:
- Average class size to be no more than 26
- Maximum for a class to be 30 students except for classes where there are hazardous processes, equipment and/or materials then they will be no more than 24
Claim 3.2 Further clarification of non-contact:
Claim 3.3 Duty Clauses:
- Indentify and limit teachers’ duty in at-risk areas and times
- Provide equipment for duty
4 Targeted support for Maori and Pasifika students
i. Workload and stress associated with preparing students for Polyfest and Kapa Haka each year
Claim 4.1 Target some of the extra units and MMAs specifically for teachers who work with students preparing them for Kapa Haka and Polyfest.
Claim 4.2 Provide 100 days of relief teaching so teachers can attend with their students: for Kapa Haka competitions (70 days pa) and for Polyfest (30 days pa).
5 Remuneration – base rates
HERE IT IS
Claim 5.1 Base scale increase of 4% for 1 year term to Jun 2011
Claim 5.2 An additional 1% employer contribution to Kiwisaver
Claim 5.3 Salary credits to be counted when employed as a trained teacher and the ‘appropriate’ qualification from when they may be counted is that which is applicable to that vocation – including when it is L4.
6 Career pathways for teachers – leadership and management in secondary schools
Claim 6 Improve payments for management and leadership within schools:

7 Targeted payments
Claim 7.1 Service / Qualification increment - remove the unit restriction and insert that the qualification must be a minimum of L5 on the NQF
Claim 7.2 High priority teacher supply allowance: extend it to all decile 1 and 2 schools,
Claim 7.3 Extend the MITA (Maori Immersion Teachers allowance) to RTLB Maori
Claim 7.4 Bring the voluntary bonding scheme into the STCA, and extend it.
Claim 7.5: Increase the associate teacher allowance to $12.75 (the minimum wage)
8 Fairness and equity claims
Claim 8 .1 That laptops and immunisation are fully funded
Claim 8.2 That transfers and removals costs are reviewed and limits updated
Claim 8 .3 That the mileage allowance is aligned with IRD
Claim 8.4 Fully pro-rate non-contact for part time teachers
Claim 8.5 Find ways to addressing domestic/sick leave inequities
Claim 8.6 Remove gender discrimination in regards to parental leave provisions
9 Health and Safety improvements
Claim 9.1 Ensure time and training is available for H&S representative
10 New employment benefits
Claim 10.1 Enable an easier change from full time to part time teaching
Claim 10.2 Introduce a 4 for 5 year voluntary refreshment scheme
11 Clarification and enabling claims
11.1 Beginning teacher time allowance 3.8.1 and 3.8.2
11.2 Beginning teacher time allowance 3.8.3
11.3 Overseas teacher time allowance 3.8C
11.4 Service Qualification Increment 4.9.4(a)
11.5 Specialist Classroom Teacher Guidelines 4.14
11.6 G categories 4.1 and 4.2.1
11.7 Employment Relations Education Leave 10.5

[KiWiP]

No you won't and you know it

Dammit you did! beat me to the post :niceone:

[p.dath]

=He is right though, tucked right in the middle of all these nasty claims is a claim for 4% YES WE KNOW THIS! AND ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY!!!

I repeat, if it is not about the money, drop the claim for a 4% pay rise. Seriously, I'll take your whole industry more seriously.

And how about that extra 1% kiwisaver contribution your asking for. What abouting dropping that? Because what your really asking for is a 5% increase, just wording it so that it doesn't seem so big.

How can you trust someone who on one hand says it is not about the money, while at the same time striking about it? There is no credability. Like I say, the teachers union brings the whole industry into dis-respect.


Could you union wait just 2 years before asking for more money? Could they not wait till the country is in a better position? It's just the wrong time to be demanding more of everything.

How about this, negotiate for a pay rise - but don't put it into effect for 2 years. Just give the country some time.

[Smifffy]

Oh I'm sorry I had it all wrong before. Now I understand where the teachers are coming from.

I work really hard.

I work more than 40 hours a week.

The people I am responsible for all have my home phone number and call me whenever they feel the need.

I am measured against whether or not those people achieve the required standard or not daily.

Without exception every person for whom I take responsibility would rather be somewhere else.

My boss compelled me to undertake a training course that requires 1000 hours of work over and above my work hours, to be completed within 18 months.

My performance, and hence that of my charges is formally reviewed quarterly.

I can leave at any time I want, giving 30 days notice.

At my last performance review, my boss indicated that I might expect a good pay rise. I expect it to be considerably less than 4%

[Mully]

Is that 37 or so individual "demands"?

Fucking hell - I'd like to do that and keep my job.

The only time I've had 4% (or 5%) was when I changed companies - I got 3.75% this year and nothing last year - and I count myself lucky to get the 3.75%.

Some of the "demands" I don't disagree with, TBH.

What's with this though: "Claim 8.6 Remove gender discrimination in regards to parental leave provisions "

Where is there gender discrimination with regard to this? Are fathers not being permitted to take parental leave? I thought the law was for paid parental leave (for one parent. If you guys want both parents to be paid for parental leave, you can kiss my arse)

There also seems to be a lot of management-speak in this. (Claim 1.1 for example)

[KiWiP]

You don't get it. It's a recession.
No you don't get it. We are not in a recession {PROOF THAT d'ath WILL IGNORE} (http://www.treasury.govt.nz/economy/mei/jan10/03.htm)


Now is not the time for asking for more.
Jeez you're like a bulldog on a bone. The increment is to try to bring teaching up to a level that might possibly attract more graduates to a profession that is haemorrhaging talent. Todays mantra is "Recruitment and Retention" roll it over the tounge Recruit excellence... Retain excellence... (and I am with you on getting rid of the shit ones)


I know lots of people who have effectively taken pay cuts.
you sure know a lot of people. I'm starting to think you make a lot of this stuff up...


Just by comparison, my qualificat.......
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............. ............


But this is not about me, or how hard my job is.
How right you are. Your job is not hard. It might be complex, it might be challenging but it is not hard!


Just pointing out that becoming a teacher is no more difficult than many other professions.
You don't know, you haven't done it and before I started neither did I. You mentioned in an earlier post you had done some instruction. It's not the same. I worked my self up the corporate ladder to international training manager for what it's worth (which is not a lot in retrospect) but working in the school environment is something else.


That is probably like the majority of professionals I know.
More people you know?


Once again, I don't see anything special about being a teacher to warrant the industrial action.
Yep, well I think we've all got a handle on that one!

[Smifffy]

No you don't get it. We are not in a recession {PROOF THAT d'ath WILL IGNORE} (http://www.treasury.govt.nz/economy/mei/jan10/03.htm)


Jeez you're like a bulldog on a bone. The increment is to try to bring teaching up to a level that might possibly attract more graduates to a profession that is haemorrhaging talent. Todays mantra is "Recruitment and Retention" roll it over the tounge Recruit excellence... Retain excellence... (and I am with you on getting rid of the shit ones)


you sure know a lot of people. I'm starting to think you make a lot of this stuff up...


ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............. ............


How right you are. Your job is not hard. It might be complex, it might be challenging but it is not hard!


You don't know, you haven't done it and before I started neither did I. You mentioned in an earlier post you had done some instruction. It's not the same. I worked my self up the corporate ladder to international training manager for what it's worth (which is not a lot in retrospect) but working in the school environment is something else.


More people you know?


Yep, well I think we've all got a handle on that one!

How would you know how hard, or not his job is?

Your rhetoric is losing more support here than it gains.

[Smifffy]

No you don't get it. We are not in a recession {PROOF THAT d'ath WILL IGNORE} (http://www.treasury.govt.nz/economy/mei/jan10/03.htm)


Jeez you're like a bulldog on a bone. The increment is to try to bring teaching up to a level that might possibly attract more graduates to a profession that is haemorrhaging talent. Todays mantra is "Recruitment and Retention" roll it over the tounge Recruit excellence... Retain excellence... (and I am with you on getting rid of the shit ones)


you sure know a lot of people. I'm starting to think you make a lot of this stuff up...


ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............. ............


How right you are. Your job is not hard. It might be complex, it might be challenging but it is not hard!


You don't know, you haven't done it and before I started neither did I. You mentioned in an earlier post you had done some instruction. It's not the same. I worked my self up the corporate ladder to international training manager for what it's worth (which is not a lot in retrospect) but working in the school environment is something else.


More people you know?


Yep, well I think we've all got a handle on that one!

Attract graduates of what? They is busy canning teaching degree courses if ya didn't know, and increasing the pay of the incumbents won't do diddly to address that.

One minute this whole thing is about recognising the work done by teachers, the next it is about attracting new talent.

Really it is all about grabbing more moolah, so at least come up with a consistent story.

[p.dath]

Just reading more about the money the Teachers want. So apart from the 4% base salary increase (claim 5.1), and an additional 1% kiwi saver increase I just spotted they want to increase various unit payments to $4500, and then increase the number of units being paid out by 8,500. These units are on top of their existing pay.

I assume each teacher can only get one additional unit (???), so that is 8,500 teachers getting an additional payout over and above the 5% "base" being asked.

The want teachers to get 40 (!!!) sabaticals (claim 1.3) senior managers to get 10 sabacticals (claim 1.4).

They also want duty allowances ($21/hour) and at risk allowances ($50/hour) (claim 3.3).

They want 100 days of relief teaching to allow teachers to attend Kapa Haka and Polyfest competitions (claim 4.2). What the hell?

Claim 5.3 is all about salary credits.

Claim 7.1 is about payments related to service/qualification increments. Apparently additional units dont always add as much as initial units (this is an argument about the amount of additional money they should be paid).

Claim 7.2, 7.2 and 7.3 and 7.5 are about teacher allowances.

Claim 8.2 is about allowances for helping teachers shift (for fucks sake - we help pay for them to shift?).

Claim 8.3, 8.4 and 8.5 are about more allowances.


After this I got sick of reading it. The majority of teacher claims are all to do with money. Despite what they say, it is very obvious from the arguments being put forward what their true motive is.

While they say they are only asking for 4% they are actually asking for a whole lot more money. It would be fair to say that if this goes through the *minimum* pay rise for a teacher would be 5%. Most teachers would get a far more substantial pay rise because of the increases in allowances and management units.

[KiWiP]

Is that 37 or so individual "demands"?
Claims, some of these exist with different emphasis in the old contract. Some have been added as the world changes (should we all be working to Victorian work contracts? I think not)


I count myself lucky to get the 3.75%.
good on yah, but please remember that a 4% increase still leaves teachers salaries trailing the rest of the world by 16%. Who do you want teaching your children? the best or the cheapest?


Some of the "demands" I don't disagree with, TBH.
Great.


What's with this though: "Claim 8.6 Remove gender discrimination in regards to parental leave provisions "

In many families now the woman is the primary salary earner so is it not better that she goes back to work earlier while the man can take maternity leave, looking after the baby and still maintain the same benefits that the woman would have.
The claim states "This claim is to ensure that such entitlements are also available to fathers should they be taking the primary caretaking role of the child after birth.

Some I am not in favour of but they have all gone 'through the wrangle' over many months and it is a 'collective agreement' you ain't going to please all the people all of the time. But we do live in a free democracy where all opinions are welcome. And open for free and frank discussion,


There also seems to be a lot of management-speak in this. (Claim 1.1 for example)
Hell Yeah, that unfortunately is how the cookie is reduced to a significantly smaller portion of its hitherto redundant parts.

[oldrider]

Teachers are never happy about their employment remuneration or working conditions, ever wondered why?

They insist on delegating the responsibility to some other (probably unknown to them) person and then complain about the result they get! :eek5: Hello!

If teachers rate themselves so highly as individuals why do they continue to demand that they belong to an employment collective?

The only thing a collective employment agreement guarantees, is mediocrity! (measured by the lowest common denominator)

That's why they get such lousy pay, in contrast to their own individual expectations and effort!

Negotiate an individual employment contract and get the pay and conditions that you think your performance commands!

If that is just too hard and difficult for a teacher to do, then it tells me they get the deal they deserve!

The other thing that astounds me is that they pay the person to get the deals that they are always so unhappy with! :yawn: gets tiresome!

If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you've always got!

If you want a different result, do something different and stop moaning about it, the rest of the world is laughing at you! :wings:

[KiWiP]

Hey this is great after 3 days you've bothered to read the claims. Unfortunately you've tripped up over in your reading (comprehension)

I just spotted they want to increase various unit payments to $4500, and then increase the number of units being paid out by 8,500. These units are on top of their existing pay.
Additional work beyond classroom teaching such as being a curriculum leader (deciding how a subject should be taught and assessed), a department leader (responsible for resource allocation), a head of department (hiring and firing etc) involve extra responsibility beyond the core task of teaching. This is what is called promotion. When one attains promotion one takes on more responsibility and is remunerated accordingly. These are the unit payments you are referring to.


I assume Oh yeah and you keep on doing it...


The want teachers to get 40 (!!!) sabaticals (claim 1.3) senior managers to get 10 sabacticals (claim 1.4).
They want 100 days of relief teaching to allow teachers to attend Kapa Haka and Polyfest competitions (claim 4.2). What the hell?
Exactly what the hell! This is nationwide, if it was individually there would be no one working!


Claim 7.1 is about (Hang on here??? you did read the document and not just the headlines I posted!!!

7.1 relates to an inequity on the salary scale where if a teacher has been working for a number of years on a qualification grade gains a new qualification to effectively jump the up it is possible (admittedly this is in a very few cases) to jump down on the salary scale.

7.2 This one is really important. We have a massive shortage of specialist teachers in technology, science, maths and english. We recruit heavily from overseas in those areas because we don't have enough coming through our own system, and when teachers do come here where do they go to decile 8,9 10 schools. 7.2 is about creating incentives for teachers to work in the lower decile schools.

7.3 This is an encouragement for Maori immersion. quote from PPTA "We believe this may only affect up to 20 teachers."

7.4 Ah you left that one out didn't you because you didn't know what it meant haha

7.5 Ensuring that Associate teachers are paid the minimum wage ($12.75)! That which a burger flipper is entitled to but through a previous loophole has meant that associate teachers are paid $3.19/hr How is that for an incentive to enter the profession?


Claim 8.2 is about allowances for helping teachers shift (for fucks sake - we help pay for them to shift?).
Yes this is standard in any profession (you'll get there one day). The provision exists already. The claim is requesting that the monetary amount is reviewed.

Claim 8.3, 8.4 and 8.5 are about more allowances.
No they're not.

Look, if you're are not willing to take on board the information presented to you (admit it, you only read the titles, I'll give you credit for that. If you did read the rationale in the full document and still believe your own diatribe then you are far thicker than I had previously given you credit for) will you please stop just hurling in your ignorant, bigoted, bile. You have an obvious issue with teachers we get that point. You keep pushing the agenda that this thing is about money when it so patently isn't (despite the government and you trying to fly that banner)


After this I got sick of reading it.
but that's not entirely true because you didn't actually read it did you?

[KiWiP]

Teachers are never happy Bollocks

They insist on delegating the responsibility to some otherBollocks

why do they continue to demand that they belong to an employment collective?Bollocks

The only thing a collective employment agreement guarantees, is mediocrity! Bollocks

That's why they get such lousy pay Boll.... Oh hang on a recognition of fact!


Negotiate an individual employment contract Yeah well as we are effectively civil servants we don't have that option.


If that is just too hard and difficult for a teacher to do, then it tells me they get the deal they deserve! Quite possibly but this is one of the reasons we are in a union (note not all teachers are in the PPTA). There is no expectation of a teacher to be a negotiator of such skills to get their rightful dues. And if a teacher is unhappy with their lot at one school they can't just move to another because their lot there is the same. They could go to the private sector where the salary is better but do you really want that?


The other thing that astounds me is that they pay the person to get the deals that they are always so unhappy with! :yawn: gets tiresome! What's the alternative 16,000 separate interviews to assess pay and conditions on an annual basis? I don't think so


If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you've always got![
True and that is one of the issues, teachers are today doing far more than they ever have done. There is demand to have continual assessment through all streams of teaching. In the UK they were introducing national reading standards for 5 year olds before a new government and good sense took hold and these plans were scrapped. We are now assessing the hell out of the kids to what end? As an old saying from my home goes "the pig doesn't get fatter the more you weigh it" But this is another issue.


If you want a different result, do something different
We do every single day and it's all to make the difference


stop moaning about it, the rest of the world is laughing at you!

Seems to me that you're moaning and as for the world? They don't even know we're here.

[Jonno.]

True and that is one of the issues, teachers are today doing far more than they ever have done. There is demand to have continual assessment through all streams of teaching. In the UK they were introducing national reading standards for 5 year olds before a new government and good sense took hold and these plans were scrapped. We are now assessing the hell out of the kids to what end? As an old saying from my home goes "the pig doesn't get fatter the more you weigh it" But this is another issue.
.

Yes but if you don't weight your pigs in the first place how can you tell their weight? By guessing?

[oldrider]

Bollocks
Bollocks
Bollocks
Bollocks
Boll.... Oh hang on a recognition of fact!

Yeah well as we are effectively civil servants we don't have that option.

Quite possibly but this is one of the reasons we are in a union (note not all teachers are in the PPTA). There is no expectation of a teacher to be a negotiator of such skills to get their rightful dues. And if a teacher is unhappy with their lot at one school they can't just move to another because their lot there is the same. They could go to the private sector where the salary is better but do you really want that?

What's the alternative 16,000 separate interviews to assess pay and conditions on an annual basis? I don't think so


True and that is one of the issues, teachers are today doing far more than they ever have done. There is demand to have continual assessment through all streams of teaching. In the UK they were introducing national reading standards for 5 year olds before a new government and good sense took hold and these plans were scrapped. We are now assessing the hell out of the kids to what end? As an old saying from my home goes "the pig doesn't get fatter the more you weigh it" But this is another issue.


We do every single day and it's all to make the difference



Seems to me that you're moaning and as for the world? They don't even know we're here.

I rest my case!

There are none so blind as those who will not see! :rolleyes:

[p.dath]

Bollocks
Bollocks
Bollocks
Bollocks


I think you have nicely summarised your position. Face it, the teachers do not have tax payer support - and you are negotiating with the tax payers.

[p.dath]

Hey this is great after 3 days you've bothered to read the claims. Unfortunately you've tripped up over in your reading (comprehension)

I don't know if you read your own propoganda, but teachers are seeking an increase to the units to $4500, and the creation of an additionla 8,500 units.

So that's up to an extra 8,500 promotions.

So a teacher on a base salary of $45k gets an instant 10% pay rise out of this sweet deal. If they get two standards that's an instance 20% pay rise.

Then add on the 4% base salary increase and the 1% kiwisaver increase, and it's quite conceivable some teachers will be getting pay rises of 15% - or more. And that's before even considering the other rates increases.


Yes this is standard in any profession (you'll get there one day).

Alas no. Almost no one pays shifting allowances. I can only think of one professional who got a moving allowance in the last 10 years that I know - and that was because he was being head hunted - and they wanted him to shift countries.
This entitlement should be scraped all together.



Look, if you're are not willing to take on board the information presented to you (admit it, you only read the titles, I'll give you credit for that. If you did read the rationale in the full document and still believe your own diatribe then you are far thicker than I had previously given you credit for) will you please stop just hurling in your ignorant, bigoted, bile. You have an obvious issue with teachers we get that point. You keep pushing the agenda that this thing is about money when it so patently isn't (despite the government and you trying to fly that banner)

You keep trotting out the same tripe. It is very clear the whole emphasis of demands the teachers are making is about money. The teachers are doing nothing short of bold face lying when they say it is not about money. No wonder that tax payers of NZ don't want to negotiate with the teachers. You just can't trust what they say.

I say it again. Drop all the demands about money, and go back to the table. You'll earn more respect if teachers say what they really want.

Better still - how about you do what most professions are doing at the moment - and figure out how to save your employer some money so their will be less distress.

[Squiggles]

Drop all the demands about money, and go back to the table. You'll earn more respect if teachers say what they really want.

What is your opinion on the other claims? Laptops, immunisation, class sizes, professional development, etc

[Robert Taylor]

My mother has been a teacher for 30 years, and they don't pay her nearly enough for the workload and bullshit she has to deal with!

And there are plenty ( probably most ) small business people that would trade the hours they put in to just survive for a teachers salary.
Im not knocking teachers and the best ones that I ever had were those that were in the regular workforce prior to becoming a teacher.
What I am knocking though is that ( like other civil servants such as some politicians ) their PPTA body has got the temerity to think they are justified a significant slary increase when we are in the midst of a crippling recession. At a time when many people are actually taking home less.
Given that the PPTA is largely made up of sympathies that are left of centre this is also clearly political.

[oldrider]

And there are plenty ( probably most ) small business people that would trade the hours they put in to just survive for a teachers salary.
Im not knocking teachers and the best ones that I ever had were those that were in the regular workforce prior to becoming a teacher.
What I am knocking though is that ( like other civil servants such as some politicians ) their PPTA body has got the temerity to think they are justified a significant slary increase when we are in the midst of a crippling recession. At a time when many people are actually taking home less.
Given that the PPTA is largely made up of sympathies that are left of centre this is also clearly political.

True!

Poor employers and wayward unions feed off each other and have symbiotic relationships that foster and depend upon the stupidity of their membership and supporters!

Governments by their nature are notoriously poor employers!

NZ state school teachers it seems (by their rigid attachment to the system) are doomed to remain in this cycle forever!

Their choice I suppose but one does get sick of hearing about it, over and over and over! :sleep:

[Smifffy]

If we aren't in a recession, you could always go and get a high paying job somewhere else that values the skills and attributes that your degree has.

Would you like fries with that?

[marie_speeds]

FFS The Govt managed to find nearly 2 Billion to bail out a fricken private company yet can't manage a payrise for teachers and health workers?

[Banditbandit]

FFS The Govt managed to find nearly 2 Billion to bail out a fricken private company yet can't manage a payrise for teachers and health workers?

TRUE !!!!! What does that say about their priorities ? Rich fat cats get wealth - teachers, who affect the future of children and our nation - get shat on again ...

[aprilia_RS250]

I'd love to see a teacher work at a real high pressure role such as an A&E surgeon or as a stock broker for a month. Doubt they would survive.

[avgas]

FFS The Govt managed to find nearly 2 Billion to bail out a fricken private company yet can't manage a payrise for teachers and health workers?
Could be something to do with the 16% they have had over the last 4 years. 2 of which were through a recession, a time when many others did not receive.
Also apparently that 2Bil was not bail out but a buy out. And they expect to make it back :devil2: Yeah right.

[avgas]

Not that easy to do. What defines "performance"?
Ironically enough, the school, fellow teachers, students and parents.....probably even the govt can identify "the good from the bad" teacher wise.
So if you believe that the schools can not do this. Perhaps I could recommend someone at the school is put in charge of HRM?

[marie_speeds]

I'd love to see a teacher work at a real high pressure role such as an A&E surgeon or as a stock broker for a month. Doubt they would survive.
But they do work in a high pressure job. Especially those in low socio economic areas where it is a struggle to get kids to learn when their home lives are utterly crap. Many teachers that I know are there for the kids. Because learning is a passion and they want them to succeed in life and become good members of society. Nothing makes a teacher prouder than seeing an ex student do well.
Funny how you always remember the names of those teachers who were excellent and passionate about what they did. I even remember some of the bastards but in hindsight realise they were there and hard on me because they wanted me to learn. I doubt many people would survive being put in front of a class of 35 kids every day and survive without going completely bonkers before the bell rings at 3pm.


Could be something to do with the 16% they have had over the last 4 years. 2 of which were through a recession, a time when many others did not receive.
Also apparently that 2Bil was not bail out but a buy out. And they expect to make it back :devil2: Yeah right.

I reckon good luck to anyone who gets a payrise that keeps up with the cost of living and other expenses. Tall poppy syndrome at it's worse when people start to be envious of what others get or have that they don't get or have. And the Govt will never get that money back! How many new books, computers or hospital resources could that money have bought?

[avgas]

I reckon good luck to anyone who gets a payrise that keeps up with the cost of living and other expenses.
I hear that. I have had to upgrade my job 3 times in the last 10 years just to make it feel like I have the same coin to spend.

How many new books, computers or hospital resources could that money have bought?
Nah it was a valuable lessson. And it was for all NZer's - don't invest like a moron. I am noticing thousands of retirement aged individuals caught up in these messes. And its sad as they were so frivolous with their spending only to act like a complete moron when it comes to investment.
Who the hell invests every dollar they have with one company? its financial suicide. It has to be the biggest gamble of all.

[Bald Eagle]

Who the hell invests every dollar they have with one company? its financial suicide. It has to be the biggest gamble of all.

bit like putting it in Kiwisaver then eh ?

[avgas]

bit like putting it in Kiwisaver then eh ?
Don't even get me started on that clap trap.
However if someone's ONLY savings is kiwisaver - they have bigger problems.

[aprilia_RS250]

But they do work in a high pressure job. Especially those in low socio economic areas where it is a struggle to get kids to learn when their home lives are utterly crap.

Sorry telling 35 kids to shut it while you try and teach is NOT stressful or involve a lot of pressure. If they don't you kick the little shits out of class and let the dean deal with them and his parents.

Also I think 70k a year is more than enough for someone who gets 2 month holidays in summer....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/4129417/Teachers-on-strike-for-4pc-pay-rise

[Swoop]

I'd love to see a teacher work at a real high pressure role such as an A&E surgeon or as a stock broker for a month. Doubt they would survive.
The opposite also applies. Horses for courses though, eh?

Radiographers went on strike recently for a payrise. Wonder how they will get on?

[Bald Eagle]

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that old chesnut I'd be rich.

[avgas]

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that old chesnut I'd be rich.
Or poor - depending on your investments

[avgas]

To pull back on thread topic.

What events have caused teachers to lose respect?

- In government eyes
- In public eyes
- In student eyes

I was hoping to retire teaching. So I am curious if this could be something that is turned around.

[p.dath]

FFS The Govt managed to find nearly 2 Billion to bail out a fricken private company yet can't manage a payrise for teachers and health workers?

All the banks that signed up to the depositers guarantee scheme paid into that fund.

The $2b is more like a loan. They are now selling the assets, and will get a lot of that money back.

Do you think the teachers union will give the pay rise back?

[p.dath]

To pull back on thread topic.

What events have caused teachers to lose respect?

- In government eyes
- In public eyes
- In student eyes

I was hoping to retire teaching. So I am curious if this could be something that is turned around.

I can't speak for students. The "Government" represents the voting public.

I can only speak personally.
A lot of the public are experiencing pain. A lot more people are unemployed, on reduced working hours, or have lost and accepted a lower paying job. Then there is another large group hoping not to be made redundant. Then there is another large group trying to recover from a earthquake, whose lives may take much longer to return to normal.

Now imagine how Joe public feels when they hear a large group of people wanting a pay rise - failing to negotiate with their employer who everyone already knows has less money to spend (aka - a reasonable employer) - and then goes ahead and strikes anyway.
Just consider how this large group of people feel. It's like giving the finger to them.

When times are down you have to accept that you need to wait for things like this. I'd be far more impressed if the teachers union came and said "hey things are tough, and we have figured out how to say "$x" from the education budget".
This makes those people paying the bills (aka, the tax payers of NZ) value your input greatly.

Then when things are better you ask for a pay rise it will be held in better regard.

[nodrog]

I thought Teachers had to be smart people? Surely they knew how much their prospective salarys were going to be before they decided to train for their profession?

Fanny.

[marie_speeds]

All the banks that signed up to the depositers guarantee scheme paid into that fund.

The $2b is more like a loan. They are now selling the assets, and will get a lot of that money back.

Do you think the teachers union will give the pay rise back?

I didn't agree to the Govt loaning out my tax dollars to a bunch of greedy geriatrics who's idea of making a quick buck backfired on them badly. Selling assets is not going to recoup all of the Govt money. And that money could well have been better spent in education, healthcare, roading and infrastructure. I have no prob with teachers getting a payrise. These are the very people I trust to educate my children. Happy enthusiastic teachers means happy enthusiastic children.The amount that NZ spends per capita on education continues to drop. The end result is obvious..... Pay peanuts, get monkeys!

[avgas]

Happy enthusiastic teachers means happy enthusiastic children.
Actually money does not do this. (blah blah blah - No I am not talking hippie shit)
There is most likely a deeper need here that needs to be addressed. Do they want more money as they are seeing joe-blo on the other side of the fence, same degree, making more money?
Why did they go into teaching? Is this being attacked.
Are the kids to shit these days? Does the curriculum suck?

These things need to be addressed well before money will make any teachers enthusiastic.

[oldrider]

The end result is obvious..... Pay peanuts, get monkeys!

The problem really is that the monkey's get paid the same as the best teachers because the current system sets them up as the bench mark for the collective!

The most valuable teachers are being held back to level of competence of the "monkeys" and sharing their peanuts as a consequence!

Collectives at best produce "mediocrity"!

Our best teachers "are" extremely valuable and definitely deserve to be well rewarded but their behaviour is like that of a drunk defending his bottle and wondering why he remains a drunk!

They just keep on defending a system that can only fail them and expect things to change!

That behaviour alone (to me) kind of whittles their perceived value down a bit!

[Robert Taylor]

I didn't agree to the Govt loaning out my tax dollars to a bunch of greedy geriatrics who's idea of making a quick buck backfired on them badly. Selling assets is not going to recoup all of the Govt money. And that money could well have been better spent in education, healthcare, roading and infrastructure. I have no prob with teachers getting a payrise. These are the very people I trust to educate my children. Happy enthusiastic teachers means happy enthusiastic children.The amount that NZ spends per capita on education continues to drop. The end result is obvious..... Pay peanuts, get monkeys!

The Government was likely damned if they did and damned if they didnt! Its also likely that had there not been a bailout the effect on the wider community may have been far worse. I have no time for large scale money speculation but the Govt had to do what they had to do.

[Robert Taylor]

I can't speak for students. The "Government" represents the voting public.

I can only speak personally.
A lot of the public are experiencing pain. A lot more people are unemployed, on reduced working hours, or have lost and accepted a lower paying job. Then there is another large group hoping not to be made redundant. Then there is another large group trying to recover from a earthquake, whose lives may take much longer to return to normal.

Now imagine how Joe public feels when they hear a large group of people wanting a pay rise - failing to negotiate with their employer who everyone already knows has less money to spend (aka - a reasonable employer) - and then goes ahead and strikes anyway.
Just consider how this large group of people feel. It's like giving the finger to them.

When times are down you have to accept that you need to wait for things like this. I'd be far more impressed if the teachers union came and said "hey things are tough, and we have figured out how to say "$x" from the education budget".
This makes those people paying the bills (aka, the tax payers of NZ) value your input greatly.

Then when things are better you ask for a pay rise it will be held in better regard.

I think that sums up peoples reactions to this nonsense perfectly

[Banditbandit]

I think that sums up peoples reactions to this nonsense perfectly

Well, clearly it doesn't - as there seems to be just as much support for teachers in this forum as people against their stand ...

[avgas]

Well, clearly it doesn't - as there seems to be just as much support for teachers in this forum as people against their stand ...
219174219175
Ah yes, Teachers Union in full force.
Remember loose lips sink ships.

In other news....
219176

[nodrog]

Well, clearly it doesn't - as there seems to be just as much support for teachers in this forum as people against their stand ...

I dont know how anybody could support a whole workforce basically holding their employer to ransom by not doing their job.

Mr John Doe and his cobbers that work at KFC would have had their Backsides booted out the door years ago.

Its education, not bloody monopoly.

Fanny

[mashman]

I dont know how anybody could support a whole workforce basically holding their employer to ransom by not doing their job.

Mr John Doe and his cobbers that work at KFC would have had their Backsides booted out the door years ago.

Its education, not bloody monopoly.


oh the irony... the govt tell us what THEY need in regards to taxes etc... except we hand it over without batting an eyelid... (and they bail out private institutions with our money, teachers are only educating kids :shit:)

Give the teachers more money :yes: after all, it's only money :)

[nodrog]

oh the irony... the govt tell us what THEY need in regards to taxes etc... except we hand it over without batting an eyelid... (and they bail out private institutions with our money, teachers are only educating kids :shit:)

Give the teachers more money :yes: after all, it's only money :)

I see you neglected to quote rest of my post which puts it into context.

What makes teachers so special, that they feel the need to try and force their employer to increase their pay above and beyond the salary that they knew they would be getting before they signed up?

It would be like joining the Army and sitting down in the middle of a war, because all of a sudden "I dont get paid enough for this".

If everybody who didnt like what they got paid went on strike, the whole country would be shut.

Fanny

[avgas]

Give the teachers more money :yes: after all, it's only money :)
I dunno - they haven't told us what they did with the last lot of money we gave em.
The stuff doesn't grow on trees y'know.
Someday, teachers will have to be taught this lesson - may as well be today.

I mean what kind of parents would we be if we let teachers stomp their feet, cry they won't work unless they get way......you can't just give them more money.

Imagine what will happen when they get out in the big wide world. They will be unprepared.

(note : the word "teachers" is interchangeable with "kids")

[mashman]

I see you neglected to quote rest of my post which puts it into context.

What makes teachers so special, that they feel the need to try and force their employer to increase their pay above and beyond the salary that they knew they would be getting before they signed up?

It would be like joining the Army and sitting down in the middle of a war, because all of a sudden "I dont get paid enough for this".

If everybody who didnt like what they got paid went on strike, the whole country would be shut.

Fanny

Changed that, although I don't see how the rest of your post added to the context. Just offering the minority opinion :shifty:.

But Teachers taking a paycut, inflation/cost of living/levy increases is ok? Why are we paying for MP perks when they don't live up to ANY OF THEIR PROMISES (and only ever make their employers lives harder)? I'd value teachers over MP's every day of the week...

And i bet the govt would instantly fold and throw money at the Army if they did... after all they're fighting for democracy and freedom :shit:

lol, I live in hope :shifty: funny that, if we don't get paid well enough by our employer, we're encouraged leave and find another that pays more money... Good job too, we coulda ended up with a closed country :)

[mashman]

I dunno - they haven't told us what they did with the last lot of money we gave em.
The stuff doesn't grow on trees y'know.
Someday, teachers will have to be taught this lesson - may as well be today.

I mean what kind of parents would we be if we let teachers stomp their feet, cry they won't work unless they get way......you can't just give them more money.

Imagine what will happen when they get out in the big wide world. They will be unprepared.

(note : the word "teachers" is interchangeable with "kids")

Likely paid off student loans and got rid of some of the debt that they had accrued since the last pay increase :)... the cost of living never stops going up and up and up and up and up... shame the same can't be said for salaries... They must need a life consolidation lesson...

Yes you can, the stuff grows on trees. And Teachers love climbing trees.

... and underpaid, understaffed, underresourced and under valued by all... what chance do they have to have a fair say. Perhaps when the reccession is over, if there's any money left :)

[merv]

Comes around again to my point earlier in this thread, how come in 1978 a teacher was paid roughly the same as a backbench MP, now the MP gets twice what a teacher does?

Where the hell did parity go.

[Smifffy]

Likely paid off student loans and got rid of some of the debt that they had accrued since the last pay increase :)... the cost of living never stops going up and up and up and up and up... shame the same can't be said for salaries... They must need a life consolidation lesson...

Yes you can, the stuff grows on trees. And Teachers love climbing trees.

... and underpaid, understaffed, underresourced and under valued by all... what chance do they have to have a fair say. Perhaps when the reccession is over, if there's any money left :)

So the cost of living is only going up for teachers, and the rest of us are sitting back on piles of filthy lucre, laughing up our sleeves at them?

[nodrog]

"Teachers’ overall pay, including base salary and allowances, has increased by 49.6% since 2000, Secretary for Education Karen Sewell said today.

“This average increase is well ahead of the Consumer Price Index increase of 30.2% in the same period,” Karen Sewell said"

http://www.minedu.govt.nz/theMinistry/AboutUs/mediaCentreLanding/mediaReleaseIndex/MR06TeacherPay.aspx

Yes the Teachers have it tough alright.

Fanny

[mashman]

So the cost of living is only going up for teachers, and the rest of us are sitting back on piles of filthy lucre, laughing up our sleeves at them?

someone certainly is... hmmmm, now let me see where did i see that, ahhhh yes



how come in 1978 a teacher was paid roughly the same as a backbench MP, now the MP gets twice what a teacher does?

[Smifffy]

someone certainly is... hmmmm, now let me see where did i see that, ahhhh yes

Because, as the industry shifted to china, and import tariffs came off in the 80's, walk shorts and sandals became far cheaper to purchase, where as designer suits and boxers did not.

MP's are grossly overpaid as well, and if they decided to go on strike for more pay I'd be all for locking the bastards out.

[mashman]

"Teachers’ overall pay, including base salary and allowances, has increased by 49.6% since 2000, Secretary for Education Karen Sewell said today.

“This average increase is well ahead of the Consumer Price Index increase of 30.2% in the same period,” Karen Sewell said"

http://www.minedu.govt.nz/theMinistry/AboutUs/mediaCentreLanding/mediaReleaseIndex/MR06TeacherPay.aspx

Yes the Teachers have it tough alright.

Fanny

whew, thanks for that, I thought the teachers were asking for more money because they needed it, but obviously they don't because the Consumer Price Index says so...

[avgas]

Likely paid off student loans
I thought that was what the Scholarships (http://www.teachnz.govt.nz/teachnz-scholarships) were for?
Seeing as there is a 50% chance you will get one......:jerry:

Meanwhile IRD take 20% of my pay for my loans (I am paying more that min-req so I can get rid of it).
Don't worry it builds character. However i feel perhaps my character is rather dark and evil in the teachers fairy tale. :devil2:

[mashman]

Because, as the industry shifted to china, and import tariffs came off in the 80's, walk shorts and sandals became far cheaper to purchase, where as designer suits and boxers did not.

MP's are grossly overpaid as well, and if they decided to go on strike for more pay I'd be all for locking the bastards out.

I suppose exporting $2billion to China and importing $4billion from China was a wise trade agreement to make then... especially as both parties want to double it...

[gijoe1313]

I've been beating my class around the head, reinforcing ideas and of course at this stage, stemming the sudden hysteria and panic now that some have realised that exams are near.

Stopped a fight, stopped one from burning down the class, marked several assessments after being re-submitted again (and again).

Just another typical day! Have just informed class of possible impending strike action - my year 11s are aghast that they have the first hit, usual cheers and jeers.

The great thing about all of this is at least it provides another distraction to my workload! :slap:

Ah well, if we get the extra money, I'd only just waste it on my bikes and petrol, oil and lubricants for them! :innocent: (but since there are about 8 strike days planned, thats a weeks income down the gurgler - I dunno if the gubbermint would agree to pay us for a day when we are down a class! :scratch:)

Oh, must go - suddenly I have a visceral increase of learners who suddenly feel the need to complete assessment work and do some study now! :gob:

I spoke too soon! Just had to pull a large heavy bench off a kid who somehow managed to end up beneath it :slap:

[avgas]

Comes around again to my point earlier in this thread, how come in 1978 a teacher was paid roughly the same as a backbench MP, now the MP gets twice what a teacher does?
Where the hell did parity go.
Ummmm the backbenchers whom were always vultures - got smart?

Either that or one could assume the education system has dropped the ball.

Either way bend over general public.

[mashman]

I thought that was what the Scholarships (http://www.teachnz.govt.nz/teachnz-scholarships) were for?
Seeing as there is a 50% chance you will get one......:jerry:

Meanwhile IRD take 20% of my pay for my loans (I am paying more that min-req so I can get rid of it).
Don't worry it builds character. However i feel perhaps my character is rather dark and evil in the teachers fairy tale. :devil2:

I'm sure the smart ones, i mean most needy, will find their way into the correct 50% :)

dip head, don't make eye contact, start backing away...

How much are MP's perks worth? can someone tell me what the bill is, as i'd like to make some changes as to how MY tax $$$ is spent... and i'd like to start with binning MP perks and putting that money into education :), they earn twice as much, they can afford it :)

[avgas]

Ah well, if we get the extra money, I'd only just waste it on my bikes and petrol, oil and lubricants for them! :innocent:
More money for Gijoe!!!
The first teacher to actually tell us - why he needs it.

[avgas]

i'd like to start with binning MP perks and putting that money into education :), they earn twice as much, they can afford it :)
I would like to bin the government.
And replace it with an education system.
We need a good national headmaster, and a board whom want to work for free.

[Smifffy]

So whatever happened to all of that money that was being made from "international students", before that 'industry' also toppled under the weight of ever increasing greed?

[Smifffy]

I would like to bin the government.
And replace it with an education system.
We need a good national headmaster, and a board whom want to work for free.

I'd like to build a world a home
and furnish it with love.
Grow apple trees and honey bees
and snow white turtle doves.

I'd like to teach the world to sing
in perfect harmony.
I'd like to hold it in my arms,
and keep it company

[nodrog]

whew, thanks for that, I thought the teachers were asking for more money because they needed it, but obviously they don't because the Consumer Price Index says so...

I quoted that because you said they were taking a pay cut due to inflation, cost of living, etc. But infact they still come out 20% ahead of the humans.

Fanny

[Smifffy]

I quoted that because you said they were taking a pay cut due to inflation, cost of living, etc. But infact they still come out 20% ahead of the humans.

Fanny

Warning: Use of actual facts to refute claims is not allowed.

[aprilia_RS250]

Meanwhile IRD take 20% of my pay for my loans (I am paying more that min-req so I can get rid of it).


Wouldn't it be better to keep 10% now invest it in at 5.5% for a year, let inflation eat your SL by 2-3%, get the 10% discount as voluntary payment at year end?

[Smifffy]

Wouldn't it be better to keep 10% now invest it in at 5.5% for a year, let inflation eat your SL by 2-3%, get the 10% discount as voluntary payment at year end?

Woot!

Where can I get 5.5% pa with an initial investment of only 10% my monthly pay with an AA rating or higher?

(Other than perhaps a public service credit union)

[mashman]

I quoted that because you said they were taking a pay cut due to inflation, cost of living, etc. But infact they still come out 20% ahead of the humans.

Fanny

I can't find a list of what "commodity prices" are used in regards to the calculation of the Consumer Price Index, inclusions, exclusions etc... so I will believe that the figures that have been compiled are wrong and that, according to my limited knowledge on lifes expenditures, teachers not having had a payrise this year, means they are actually taking a pay cut this year as the cost of living certainly hasn't come down and never will... if they've kept up with inflation til now, good on 'em, make sure TPTB keep it that way.

[gijoe1313]

Ahaha, the delight when a student finally passes and gets to see their marks being entered into my markbook. Infectious it is ... suddenly other students get the pip and furiously scribble away so they too can hand in their submissions! :rofl:

And oddly enough, the ones that have handed in suddenly take a big lean back with a smug satisfied look on their face ... until I remind them that they are still behind and have x amount of submissions left to do still! (hmm last week of term ... and four more weeks next term ... I daresay panic stations will be achieved at the commencement of the last term! :eek::bleh:)

Oooh two weeks break ... what should I do? I know!

Take two weeks of riding gratias of the NZ public since they pay our wages! I am unrepentant! To the rest of you, I say join me in helping to edujamacate the youf of tomorra! I would much appreciate more bikers taking over the car parking in skools!

Damn, almost end of skool, will need to start collecting in work and getting the class back into shape!

[Smifffy]

Ahaha, the delight when a student finally passes and gets to see their marks being entered into my markbook. Infectious it is ... suddenly other students get the pip and furiously scribble away so they too can hand in their submissions! :rofl:

And oddly enough, the ones that have handed in suddenly take a big lean back with a smug satisfied look on their face ... until I remind them that they are still behind and have x amount of submissions left to do still! (hmm last week of term ... and four more weeks next term ... I daresay panic stations will be achieved at the commencement of the last term! :eek::bleh:)

Oooh two weeks break ... what should I do? I know!

Take two weeks of riding gratias of the NZ public since they pay our wages! I am unrepentant! To the rest of you, I say join me in helping to edujamacate the youf of tomorra! I would much appreciate more bikers taking over the car parking in skools!

Damn, almost end of skool, will need to start collecting in work and getting the class back into shape!

Good on ya GIJoe1313!!!
I remember my science teacher, who was a large influence on my resulting career, telling the class how he usetabe chief chemist for a major petrochem outfit, but gave it up for less than half the pay, so he could take plenty of time off and was able to play tennis all year round.

Tennis was his thing, and he used to hoon around town in a big ole valiant ranger. He was hard but fair and the learners respected or mocked him in about equal turn.

PS Since it is almost knock off time (I'm guessing some time before 4) I can only believe that the PPTA will ensure that you spend between now and some time around midnight poring over grades, lesson plans and curiculum changes?

:)

[Smifffy]

I can't find a list of what "commodity prices" are used in regards to the calculation of the Consumer Price Index, inclusions, exclusions etc... so I will believe that the figures that have been compiled are wrong and that, according to my limited knowledge on lifes expenditures, teachers not having had a payrise this year, means they are actually taking a pay cut this year as the cost of living certainly hasn't come down and never will... if they've kept up with inflation til now, good on 'em, make sure TPTB keep it that way.

http://www2.stats.govt.nz/domino/external/omni/omni.nsf/outputs/Consumers+Price+Index

HTH perhaps now you can flesh out your argument with some facts.

:msn-wink:

[aprilia_RS250]

Woot!

Where can I get 5.5% pa with an initial investment of only 10% my monthly pay with an AA rating or higher?

(Other than perhaps a public service credit union)

Ok for AA 4% with Rabo, you're still better off doing it that way than paying it off immediately every month.....:bleh:

Calculate your IRR, if you can earn a return of more 2.3% you're always better off delaying the payments for your SL.

[avgas]

Wouldn't it be better to keep 10% now invest it in at 5.5% for a year, let inflation eat your SL by 2-3%, get the 10% discount as voluntary payment at year end?
Yep.
However I am secretly an engineer. We fix problems before creating new ones :msn-wink:.
Also a certain greencard is to land in my hand next year :msn-wink: So may not be in NZ next year.
So gotta clear the debt asap. Which is a bit hard considering I have just slapped another $30K for my mba on it.

[avgas]

Ok for AA 4% with Rabo, you're still better off doing it that way than paying it off immediately every month.....:bleh:
Calculate your IRR, if you can earn a return of more 2.3% you're always better off delaying the payments for your SL.
Great if you can do it.
But human nature says that when that sum gets to anything substantial - you blow it.

However I do also secretly have other investments along these lines. But that money is primarily for our house when we come to buy one. We already have a 20*% deposit (*depending on markets).

It will be about 5 more years of struggle, before I will be able to buy the bikes I want........but by then, I should be so financially secure I will be allowed as many bikes as I want.

Money is a funny game. Sometimes its not a case of being risk adverse, but being consistent and balanced.

[mashman]

http://www2.stats.govt.nz/domino/external/omni/omni.nsf/outputs/Consumers+Price+Index

HTH perhaps now you can flesh out your argument with some facts.

:msn-wink:

:rofl: honestly I was trying to read the FACTS, :rofl:, but for some reason couldn't get past some of the inclusions and exclusions, primarily as they aren't fully listed and may well be things that we all buy, I may be wrong...

Now I see that the CPI isn't used for mickey mouse reasons

"It is used as a measure of inflation, an indicator for monitoring economic and monetary policy, an indicator of the effect of price change on the purchasing power of households' incomes, as a means to adjust benefits, allowances and incomes, and as a price deflator."

Pretty important stuff eh...

"The population coverage of the CPI relates to the expenditure of private, New Zealand-resident households living in permanent dwellings. The reference population covers approximately 98 percent of the usually-resident population. There are no exclusions based on income source or geographic location."

"The HES excludes residents of temporary dwellings and households in very remote parts of the North and South Islands and on offshore islands, including Great Barrier, Kawau, Stewart and the Chatham Islands"

hang on, didn't it just say "There are no exclusions based on income source or geographic location", or is that the 2% they're talking about... they don't say.

"Some types of expenditure are also excluded because their price movements cannot be satisfactorily measured nor can they be related to the price movements of items which are price-surveyed. These include works of arts, illicit drugs, pets and other livestock, gambling, most legal services etc."

but but but, it just said "There are no exclusions based on income source or geographic location"...

There's no definitive exclusions list. And Most legal services have been removed. Why only most? Doesn't say... perhaps it'd send the CPI through the roof...

The last Recommendation almost finished me off "At this point in time, given the balance of users' requirements and Statistics New Zealand's resource requirements, the production of a monthly CPI is a relatively low priority."

Hang on, the purpose of the CPI is "... used as a measure of inflation, an indicator for monitoring economic and monetary policy, an indicator of the effect of price change on the purchasing power of households' incomes, as a means to adjust benefits, allowances and incomes, and as a price deflator." but it has a low priority :rofl:...

Oooook, so after reading those facts... Give the Teachers a pay rise and stop trying to use statistics as FACTS (because they aren't) in order to not pay them...

[p.dath]

Well, clearly it doesn't - as there seems to be just as much support for teachers in this forum as people against their stand ...

I took a read over the posts again.

Those people who have said they are teachers, or are one removed from a teacher (their husband, wife, father, mother, etc) seem to support the pay rise. Basically those people most likely to directly benefit from a pay rise for the teachers.

Once that group is removed the support is pretty low.

[p.dath]

But Teachers taking a paycut, inflation/cost of living/levy increases is ok? Why are we paying for MP perks when they don't live up to ANY OF THEIR PROMISES (and only ever make their employers lives harder)? I'd value teachers over MP's every day of the week...

So because MP's get perks the teachers should get a pay rise? That's the worst argument I have ever heard.

Have you seen the huge list of associated allowances teachers get (according to the PPTA demands previsouly posted)? Teachers get perks as well.

[Smifffy]

:rofl: honestly I was trying to read the FACTS, :rofl:, but for some reason couldn't get past some of the inclusions and exclusions, primarily as they aren't fully listed and may well be things that we all buy, I may be wrong...

Now I see that the CPI isn't used for mickey mouse reasons

"It is used as a measure of inflation, an indicator for monitoring economic and monetary policy, an indicator of the effect of price change on the purchasing power of households' incomes, as a means to adjust benefits, allowances and incomes, and as a price deflator."

Pretty important stuff eh...

"The population coverage of the CPI relates to the expenditure of private, New Zealand-resident households living in permanent dwellings. The reference population covers approximately 98 percent of the usually-resident population. There are no exclusions based on income source or geographic location."

"The HES excludes residents of temporary dwellings and households in very remote parts of the North and South Islands and on offshore islands, including Great Barrier, Kawau, Stewart and the Chatham Islands"

hang on, didn't it just say "There are no exclusions based on income source or geographic location", or is that the 2% they're talking about... they don't say.

"Some types of expenditure are also excluded because their price movements cannot be satisfactorily measured nor can they be related to the price movements of items which are price-surveyed. These include works of arts, illicit drugs, pets and other livestock, gambling, most legal services etc."

but but but, it just said "There are no exclusions based on income source or geographic location"...

There's no definitive exclusions list. And Most legal services have been removed. Why only most? Doesn't say... perhaps it'd send the CPI through the roof...

The last Recommendation almost finished me off "At this point in time, given the balance of users' requirements and Statistics New Zealand's resource requirements, the production of a monthly CPI is a relatively low priority."

Hang on, the purpose of the CPI is "... used as a measure of inflation, an indicator for monitoring economic and monetary policy, an indicator of the effect of price change on the purchasing power of households' incomes, as a means to adjust benefits, allowances and incomes, and as a price deflator." but it has a low priority :rofl:...

Oooook, so after reading those facts... Give the Teachers a pay rise and stop trying to use statistics as FACTS (because they aren't) in order to not pay them...

Considering you couldn't even find a link to it, I'm not surprised you don't understand it.

As you consistently show that you are not prepared to consider views counter to your own, I'm not going to bother to attempt to explain it to you.

Try reading it again, slowly, deliberately & calmly - pretend you are an emotionless statistician.

[gijoe1313]

Well luvverly, just had a poor girl throw up in my classroom, the fountain of spew was quite spectacular! Poor thing, she was so shamed out. But, as I pointed out, we don't do these things intentionally so it's ok.

Thank gosh the rest of the class were mature about it, just moved away and got on with their work!

Was nice waiting for the caretaker to turn up and start sponging it out - lucky thing was it happened near the end of school. If it was during a full period, means for OSH reasons need to evacuate the room and wait until it has been cleaned up. :sick:

So ... one stopped fight, one pyromaniac identified, one rescue mission, one barf recovery ... and the dreaded after school meeting (which, like all meetings are ... meeting like!)

[mashman]

Considering you couldn't even find a link to it, I'm not surprised you don't understand it.

As you consistently show that you are not prepared to consider views counter to your own, I'm not going to bother to attempt to explain it to you.

Try reading it again, slowly, deliberately & calmly - pretend you are an emotionless statistician.

lol, aye, I pulled a dedicated 1 page search... but after reading it, albeit emotively, I can see why I persisted in going no further than a single page :)...

I do listen to counter arguments, as well as change my mind and admit when i'm wrong, I have no problem with that. But if my opinion doesn't change, it doesn't change for a reason and the ambiguity of that document is a HUGE reason :)... I'm a programmer, not a statistician... if the i's aren't dotted and the t's aren't crossed then the calculations being used are open to other variables that could send the results either way. That for me does not make them FACT.

Yes dear, i'll read it Arnie styles... (i wouldn't hold out too much hope though lol) and i'll still want the Teachers to get a pay rise :yes:...

[Smifffy]

lol, aye, I pulled a dedicated 1 page search... but after reading it, albeit emotively, I can see why I persisted in going no further than a single page :)...

I do listen to counter arguments, as well as change my mind and admit when i'm wrong, I have no problem with that. But if my opinion doesn't change, it doesn't change for a reason and the ambiguity of that document is a HUGE reason :)... I'm a programmer, not a statistician... if the i's aren't dotted and the t's aren't crossed then the calculations being used are open to other variables that could send the results either way. That for me does not make them FACT.

Yes dear, i'll read it Arnie styles... (i wouldn't hold out too much hope though lol) and i'll still want the Teachers to get a pay rise :yes:...

I want them to get a pay rise too. I don't believe that going on strike is the way to go about it.

[piston broke]

[QUOTE=KiWiP;1129863401]No you won't and you know it






5 Remuneration – base rates
HERE IT IS
Claim 5.1 Base scale increase of 4% for 1 year term to Jun 2011
Claim 5.2 An additional 1% employer contribution to Kiwisaver


Claim 8 .1 That laptops and immunisation are fully funded
d 4.2.1


so it's really 5%,and free laptops

[Smifffy]

Is there an upgrade timetable for the laptops, and a minimum spec?

There must also be requisite software to be installed and maintained.

Is internet bandwidth included?

[blossomsowner]

Is there an upgrade timetable for the laptops, and a minimum spec?

There must also be requisite software to be installed and maintained.

Is internet bandwidth included?



sounds good.........

and gijoe sounds like he has an entertaining time at school too.

with all the arguments going on here its very hard to decide who is right??? the nz public is of course. teachers do not need a payrise overall, just some flexibility to reward the good ones and not reward the losers.
And we'll find a way of actually giving them only 20 days annual leave a year like everyone else gets. Make them work in the holidays. I know on here they all say they do but in real life they do whatever the hell they want to, which is not spending all their time at work.
and if they spent less time yakking about bullshit and worked efficiently they could work no more than 40 hrs a week.

Then it may be fair.


Oh and make the class size smaller

[mashman]

So because MP's get perks the teachers should get a pay rise? That's the worst argument I have ever heard.


:rofl: it'd take it over, "we can't afford it because we're in a recession and we've spent it all on a finance company, but it's cool, you'll get it back... in 3 - 4 years providing ACC or our new thing isn't in the can which means you'll also lose the interest on $2 billion terms and conditions apply... next please". :shit: Different view point is all. Why not borrow against it :shifty:



Have you seen the huge list of associated allowances teachers get (according to the PPTA demands previsouly posted)? Teachers get perks as well.

Yup and i'd like to add to them. Give them the same perks as the politicians (not the booze, drugs and hookers... although it's all kinda educational), although i'm sure they'd appreciate the travel subsidy... :)

[Robert Taylor]

Changed that, although I don't see how the rest of your post added to the context. Just offering the minority opinion :shifty:.

But Teachers taking a paycut, inflation/cost of living/levy increases is ok? Why are we paying for MP perks when they don't live up to ANY OF THEIR PROMISES (and only ever make their employers lives harder)? I'd value teachers over MP's every day of the week...

And i bet the govt would instantly fold and throw money at the Army if they did... after all they're fighting for democracy and freedom :shit:

lol, I live in hope :shifty: funny that, if we don't get paid well enough by our employer, we're encouraged leave and find another that pays more money... Good job too, we coulda ended up with a closed country :)

And the rest of the country is not effectively taking a paycut given that the chickens have come home to roost?????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!
Id like to pay myself more but it is just not possible in this current economic environment. GET REAL.

[Robert Taylor]

So because MP's get perks the teachers should get a pay rise? That's the worst argument I have ever heard.

Have you seen the huge list of associated allowances teachers get (according to the PPTA demands previsouly posted)? Teachers get perks as well.

Well I think we are all agreed that most MPs are a waste of space!

[Robert Taylor]

sounds good.........

and gijoe sounds like he has an entertaining time at school too.

with all the arguments going on here its very hard to decide who is right??? the nz public is of course. teachers do not need a payrise overall, just some flexibility to reward the good ones and not reward the losers.
And we'll find a way of actually giving them only 20 days annual leave a year like everyone else gets. Make them work in the holidays. I know on here they all say they do but in real life they do whatever the hell they want to, which is not spending all their time at work.
and if they spent less time yakking about bullshit and worked efficiently they could work no more than 40 hrs a week.

Then it may be fair.


Oh and make the class size smaller

And dont forget the ones that espouse left wing BS, encountered more than a couple in my time at high school. As an unrepentant tory I wasnt about to beat to their shonky drums.

[Squiggles]

I took a read over the posts again.

You missed this one then... or ignored it



Drop all the demands about money, and go back to the table. You'll earn more respect if teachers say what they really want.

What is your opinion on the other claims? Laptops, immunisation, class sizes, professional development, etc

[mashman]

Try reading it again, slowly, deliberately & calmly - pretend you are an emotionless statistician.

I read the Guidelines on reading the data, but I didn't read the rest of the document, sorry, but from what I read it certainly didn't seem like a good idea to validate a decision on salary increases using the CPI methodology, let alone the CPI data... finally got to the end and read:

"Usage and Limitations of the Data ..The CPI is a measure of price change for households only, it should not be used or interpreted as an inflation measure for the economy as a whole."

"The CPI is based on a purposive sample of goods, services and outlets, not on a statistical sample. This means that judgement, rather than a statistical technique, was used to select the goods, services and outlets that are price surveyed. Due to the sampling methodology sample errors cannot be calculated."

The Secretary of Education has used CPI research to validate the decision, not to give teachers more money?

At the end of the day, if the pay rise isn't given, nothing will change. I've gotten real :)

[Robert Taylor]

I read the Guidelines on reading the data, but I didn't read the rest of the document, sorry, but from what I read it certainly didn't seem like a good idea to validate a decision on salary increases using the CPI methodology, let alone the CPI data... finally got to the end and read:

"Usage and Limitations of the Data ..The CPI is a measure of price change for households only, it should not be used or interpreted as an inflation measure for the economy as a whole."

"The CPI is based on a purposive sample of goods, services and outlets, not on a statistical sample. This means that judgement, rather than a statistical technique, was used to select the goods, services and outlets that are price surveyed. Due to the sampling methodology sample errors cannot be calculated."

The Secretary of Education has used CPI research to validate the decision, not to give teachers more money?

At the end of the day, if the pay rise isn't given, nothing will change. I've gotten real :)

There are thousands upon thousands of small businesses in NZ that would like to give their most productive and valued employees a wage rise ( including my business ) But in the current economic environment that is just not possible. Given all of that I started off with very little respect for the militant cloud cuckoo land mentality of the PPTA, now that respect is absolutely zero and Im confident that Im talking for a good many New Zealanders.
Good teachers may indeed deserve more money but many also dont.

[gijoe1313]

Hey, the first I knew of this brouhaha was when I came back from three weeks off due to High BP ... and suddenly there was this PPTA strike, which was voted on by the teachers. I didn't even get to vote since I was blithely away in la-la-land (riding bikes to calm the nerves).

Soon as I found out about it, I knew it was going to be a case of the bovine defecate hurled at an oscillating machine!

Oh yeah, next week is school hols - I intend to make the most of it by riding. And riding lots gratias to the NZ taxpayer since they fund my pootles and other errant and eccentric proclivities!

I think I already mentioned it, but if I get a 4% increase, that'd only be spent on bikes, anything left over will be on women, ginger beer and song! (I'm a teetotaller!) Anything else left after that will be merely wasted! :whistle:

[SVboy]

I took a read over the posts again.

Those people who have said they are teachers, or are one removed from a teacher (their husband, wife, father, mother, etc) seem to support the pay rise. Basically those people most likely to directly benefit from a pay rise for the teachers.

Once that group is removed the support is pretty low.

As usual, you miss the point. There is a raft of conditions, as well as a pay rise being fought for. You seem somewhat bitter about the whole process, and sooooo lacking in real perspective as to what it takes to succeed or even cope being a secondary teacher. [Despite your secondhand "experience" from your ex].
Perhaps it is time for a career change for you so you can bask in the huge dollars, light workload and endless holidays that you seem to think teaching is about.

[Number One]

so 25-35 /hr isn't enough
i don't doubt there real value (could be a lot better),but all in all,tis a very good wage for nz

Piffle...I find it ridiculous that I get paid quite a bit more than Nurses and Teachers and Police....I would not do any of those 3 jobs for less than I'm currently on...I think it's sad that these professionals aren't better treated. Shit working conditions, little shits to deal with and heck many of the parents aren't a whole lot better.

I salute the teachers of NZ - well the good ones that is...there are few from my days I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire...one in particular who was a dirty filthy pedo!!!

Anyway - I say pay them more...in fact I wonder how much they could have afforded for teacher salaries if they hadn't bailed out all the rich investor pricks down south :shutup:

BTW on a side note: Perhaps if teachers were paid more, more people would know the difference between there and their! :chase:

[oldrider]

Piffle...I find it ridiculous that I get paid quite a bit more than Nurses and Teachers and Police....I would not do any of those 3 jobs for less than I'm currently on...I think it's sad that these professionals aren't better treated. Shit working conditions, little shits to deal with and heck many of the parents aren't a whole lot better.

I salute the teachers of NZ - well the good ones that is...there are few from my days I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire...one in particular who was a dirty filthy pedo!!!

Anyway - I say pay them more...in fact I wonder how much they could have afforded for teacher salaries if they hadn't bailed out all the rich investor pricks down south :shutup:

BTW on a side note: Perhaps if teachers were paid more, more people would know the difference between there and their! :chase:

There is probably nothing standing in your way to "voluntarily" subscribe toward the teachers pay now as matter of personal choice! :niceone:

Forcing everyone else to make the same noble contribution through compulsory taxation is simply (legal?) extortion! :nono:

[Swoop]

Mr John Doe and his cobbers that work at KFC would have had their Backsides booted out the door years ago.

Its education, not bloody monopoly.
Look at the criteria to get a job teaching Vs serving globs of fat through a window though...

that'd only be spent on bikes, anything left over will be on women, ginger beer and song!Anything else left after that will be merely wasted! :whistle:
As the saying goes "When wine, women and song become too much... STOP SINGING!!".:niceone:

[gijoe1313]

Oh joy time, got to sit outside the deputy principal's office to await the arrival of aforesaid boy who tried to burn down the class.

Swore black and blue it wasn't him and it was all a stitch up.

Oddly enough, in tutor time just before this meeting - I had the lads who normally sit in that area suddenly point out to me ...

"Sir! This damage is new!"
"Sir! Did so and so did this?"

:rofl: All without any prompting from me ... amazing how word gets round ... but recognition of tags has done for many a would be graffiti artist!

"Sir! What an idiot to do it with a lighter! Shoulda used a marker like the rest of us!"

Ahh cherubs ... the ones that fly in hell it seems! :rolleyes:

Parents the usual distress and excuses, but finally accepting of what has been done.

Right, what's next for the day? (I'm currently doing internal relief for seniors who all seem to be blithely unaware that they will soon be coshed by external exams!)

[mashman]

There are thousands upon thousands of small businesses in NZ that would like to give their most productive and valued employees a wage rise ( including my business ) But in the current economic environment that is just not possible. Given all of that I started off with very little respect for the militant cloud cuckoo land mentality of the PPTA, now that respect is absolutely zero and Im confident that Im talking for a good many New Zealanders.
Good teachers may indeed deserve more money but many also dont.

You're about to get a tax break, what's the problem :shifty: lol... I understand that you and the other thousands of honest business people would dearly love to give their "valued" employees a pay rise. I also understand some of the reasons that this may not be possible (higher pricing, recession, being greedy etc...) and I honestly feel for those businesses and that predicament...

But I fully agree with:



Piffle...I find it ridiculous that I get paid quite a bit more than Nurses and Teachers and Police....I would not do any of those 3 jobs for less than I'm currently on...I think it's sad that these professionals aren't better treated. Shit working conditions, little shits to deal with and heck many of the parents aren't a whole lot better.

I salute the teachers of NZ - well the good ones that is...there are few from my days I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire...one in particular who was a dirty filthy pedo!!!

Anyway - I say pay them more...in fact I wonder how much they could have afforded for teacher salaries if they hadn't bailed out all the rich investor pricks down south


there's no real reason that I should earn so much more than a Teacher or Nurse etc... and I earn less than plenty of IT public servants... Why should an MP, that serves 4 terms (12 years), get a 90% subsidy in travel perks FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE??? they shouldn't! You and I are paying for that subsidy and i'd rather it went to the Teachers.

So like yourself Robert, I'm not the only NZ'er thinking that the teachers should get paid. Perhaps the government should ask the country?

[PrincessBandit]

Ah the debate continues.

Once upon a time teachers were pretty much just imparters of knowledge to little minds waiting to be filled up with 'helpful' (and not so helpful) stuff about the world etc.


Nowadays, teachers are expected to be (still) imparters of knowledge plus make sure this is done so that the vast masses of their students are able to pass the necessary exams at the end of it (because we all know that students failing to make the grade is the teacher's fault); mentors; counsellors; behaviour management experts; camp leaders; volunteer coaches and trainers; the list goes on. Not to mention dealing with a fair smattering of ungracious, belligerent, antisocial primates (you should see them swinging on the doors of the department when a simple knock on the door would suffice) in amongst the ones who are actually a joy to work with and teach.

Out in the world if someone got in your face and told you to fuck off they'd probably get a belt around the ear or knuckle sandwich. Try doing that to a school kid, who has a good 6 inches of height and at least 15 kg of weight over you! Then think about biting your tongue, keeping your temper and staying cool and collected while they tell you you can't do jack shit to them 'cos they know their rights...... Happens more frequently than many non-teachers realise.

Ah, the joys. Tis a profession not for the faint hearted.

[gijoe1313]

Ah, the joys. Tis a profession not for the faint hearted.

I am full of admiration for the courage and ability of my female counterparts in this profession. The things that have happened to them due to themselves putting themselves into harm's way to preserve the well being of their charges is deserving of a medal.

For a bloke like me, I know the risks involved - and whenever I hear of a situation that befalls a female teacher at times, I can only blanch. I was often the only male in my block, and I have stressed that if any help is needed, only holler or send a student.

Fortunately a lot of the male students also have sound decent, morals and principles and they have acted to ensure safety of all has occured. I marvel at that! :yes:

[oldrider]

Perhaps the government should ask the country?

Why would they do that? :no:

Under MMP they are only responsible to their partners in crime, their current coalition partners! :weep:

[avgas]

BTW on a side note: Perhaps if teachers were paid more, more people would know the difference between there and their! :chase:
Doubt it.
Considering the fact that education levels have statistically dropped when teachers income has increased.

[avgas]

Ah the debate continues.

Once upon a time teachers were pretty much just imparters of knowledge to little minds waiting to be filled up with 'helpful' (and not so helpful) stuff about the world etc.


Nowadays, teachers are expected to be (still) imparters of knowledge plus make sure this is done so that the vast masses of their students are able to pass the necessary exams at the end of it (because we all know that students failing to make the grade is the teacher's fault); mentors; counsellors; behaviour management experts; camp leaders; volunteer coaches and trainers; the list goes on. Not to mention dealing with a fair smattering of ungracious, belligerent, antisocial primates (you should see them swinging on the doors of the department when a simple knock on the door would suffice) in amongst the ones who are actually a joy to work with and teach.

Out in the world if someone got in your face and told you to fuck off they'd probably get a belt around the ear or knuckle sandwich. Try doing that to a school kid, who has a good 6 inches of height and at least 15 kg of weight over you! Then think about biting your tongue, keeping your temper and staying cool and collected while they tell you you can't do jack shit to them 'cos they know their rights...... Happens more frequently than many non-teachers realise.

Ah, the joys. Tis a profession not for the faint hearted.
Sorry explain to me again how money fixes this?

[Robert Taylor]

Lets concentrate on more important things first like reinstating the Aermacchis.

[PrincessBandit]

Sorry explain to me again how money fixes this?

I didn't say that, you are putting words in my mouth.

It was simply to show that for all the "perks" people go on about teachers getting there is another side to it all.

[SVboy]

Doubt it.
Considering the fact that education levels have statistically dropped when teachers income has increased.

Spoken like a person truly unable to grasp the full picture. Perhaps a wee spell as a teach would help enlighten you...obviously we are failing to do so. Then again..could you cope?

[MikeL]

Once upon a time, in a little corner of a planet in a galaxy light-years away, the people enjoyed a reasonable standard of living and were generally happy with the way their society was organised. In particular, they had a good education system that made efficient use of the limited wealth that the country produced. Teachers were not well paid, but nor were most workers, and the difference between the rich and the poor was not all that great so the teachers had no real reason to feel resentful. They were, after all, remunerated at about the same level as a backbencher parliamentarian, and by and large they had the respect of the community and could feel satisfied that they were doing an important and worthwhile job. They could concentrate on the business of imparting skills and knowledge and were not expected to be counsellors, social workers, policemen, assessors, substitute parents or anything else. Those of their clients for whom formal education was not appropriate left at the age of fifteen and made themselves useful in a trade or business.

Then something happened and everything started to change...

Would anyone else care to finish the story?? It might shed some light on current events and go some way to explaining why teachers are so unhappy...

[avgas]

I didn't say that, you are putting words in my mouth.
It was simply to show that for all the "perks" people go on about teachers getting there is another side to it all.
Tis life my dear.
At least you guys have an excuse why your customers act immature. And can pass them on to another when something goes wrong.

Ever tried telling a district council that no amount of stomping their feet is going to fix their problem and they just have to grow up and do some work?
Or to tell a lawyer that late is just not good enough, and you are not going to deal with them.

See Teachers and the rest of the world - we aren't too different. Except if I held my task at ransom, and refused to do them, until I got paid more......I would be sued.

[avgas]

Spoken like a person truly unable to grasp the full picture. Perhaps a wee spell as a teach would help enlighten you...obviously we are failing to do so. Then again..could you cope?
Certainly.
But whats it going to cost me? And when you want more - does this mean everything has to go on hold, while I wait for you to stop demanding?

[NighthawkNZ]

Revolting teachers!

My teacher at intermediate was revolting ... :chase:

[PrincessBandit]

Ever tried telling a district council that no amount of stomping their feet is going to fix their problem and they just have to grow up and do some work?

Haha haha, nah, it's usually the council telling the homeowner that no amount of foot stamping is going to make the job go any faster...


Or to tell a lawyer that late is just not good enough, and you are not going to deal with them.
Um, no problem - find another lawyer. There are plenty of them out there.
See Teachers and the rest of the world - we aren't too different. Except if I held my task at ransom, and refused to do them, until I got paid more......I would be sued.

:msn-wink:

[avgas]

It has been clear that many have not understood my initial argument.
I have no problem with teachers being paid more. In fact I think everyone has a right to apply for a pay rise.

However, I have one simple question - WHY?

What has significantly changed in teachers lives that requires them to have more money?
Is this a problem money can solve?
Is there nothing that could be changed to make teachers roles easier?

Pay is just compensation - band-aid and panadol solution.
Doesn't fix the problem. Just delays the next demand.

Should teachers get what they want when they stomp their feet and throw their toys out of the cot?
Or should their be a better way?

[gijoe1313]

Great, must be the howling winds - broke up another fight behind a school block! Chased several tardy students back to class ... and on top of this I am running a combined class of module students who are learning how to build and paint miniatures with me, and conducting yr11 catch up course for those who need to submit internal assessments!

Girls doing their beauty routine in class, guys goofing off ... just your atypical last week of the term. Too bad for the seniors they don't realise they have bugger all time left at school! :rolleyes:

Ah well, will see how they are next term :devil2:

[avgas]

:msn-wink:
Yeah but trust me, turning your back and walking away from a lawyer like that..... not recommended.
Basically paints a big cross on your head, while they load the ammunition into the rifle.

[tamarillo]

Who knows how many weeks official holiday is in teachers contracts - standard 4 I assume. I do feel that if this is the case the other 8 weeks non kids time (minus publics of course) should be at school 8 hr day doing all this extra work we hear about.
As a part time solo dad I get very jeolous of teacher friends having all these holidays off whilst rest of us juggle and even take unpaid leave to cope.

Anyone know?

[gijoe1313]

12 weeks worth, 2 weeks at end of each term. 6 weeks at end of year. And yeup, everyone is welcome to have those if you help join the ranks of the teaching profession! :eek:

As for me, I will go and ride and ride and ride as much of that time off as I can! :msn-wink: Though sometimes my plans and reality don't match up! :weep:

And yeup, we don't call them holidays, but rather mental recuperation! :wacko:

Oh yeah - you don't hear me complaining about my lot! Sheesh, being at school keeps me in check from causing mayhem outside of it! :innocent:

[tri boy]

The education system turned to shit when men were kicked out, and school community bottle drives stopped.
Feckin lesso's took over and that was that.
Fact.

[PrincessBandit]

The education system turned to shit when men were kicked out, and school community bottle drives stopped.
Feckin lesso's took over and that was that.
Fact.

It's a shame there aren't loads more men in the teaching profession - both primary and secondary. Good male role models are important for both male and female students.

[Robert Taylor]

The education system turned to shit when men were kicked out, and school community bottle drives stopped.
Feckin lesso's took over and that was that.
Fact.

Agreed on all counts, bringing back caning wouldnt go amiss either.

Teachers arent a special group of people where their proffession is unique in being irksome and challenging, they also arent unique in wanting to be paid more. But there isnt more available and they should accept the fact.

Like I said earlier there are other pressing priorities like reinstating a half credible Air Force after the arch lezzo of them all messed with it

[MikeL]

Like I said earlier there are other pressing priorities like reinstating a half credible Air Force after the arch lezzo of them all messed with it

Absolutely. It really hurts when the lezzo-leftist conspiracy takes away our boys' toys.
Reinstating a half-credible strike force is vitally important to our self-image. Mind you, fully credible would be better. After all, the Skyhawks were a bit slow and just slightly obsolete when we bought them. How can a nation have any self-respect without a couple of squadrons of supersonic phallic symbols thrusting proudly through the air?
O.K. the cost of keeping a couple of them flying for a few hours a month would have bought several hospitals or hundreds more police, but people who say that really have no sense of priorities...

[avgas]

O.K. the cost of keeping a couple of them flying for a few hours a month would have bought several hospitals or hundreds more police, but people who say that really have no sense of priorities...
Actually the grounding costs are 50% that of the flying cost.
So we were better off with a strike-wing than with paperweights.

Found out last week that Aus has just placed an order for new jets..........bastards gonna invade us now.

[mashman]

If anyone is in Porirua and wanting a chat with the PM, he's wandering cobham court at the moment...

[merv]

If anyone is in Porirua and wanting a chat with the PM, he's wandering cobham court at the moment...

What is he looking for a fight with those girls, or chasing school kids back to school or something?

Oh nah that's right he's helping out supporting his candidate in the by-election. Does she support improved conditions for gijoe and his fellow teachers I wonder?

[mashman]

What is he looking for a fight with those girls, or chasing school kids back to school or something?

Oh nah that's right he's helping out supporting his candidate in the by-election. Does she support improved conditions for gijoe and his fellow teachers I wonder?

:rofl: there were police in attendance for that very reason I reckon... Just heard, from a colleague, that he's in Max, ladies clothes apparantly... something to throw at the lady brawlers should they come for him perhaps :shifty:

[gijoe1313]

Today I am on a go-slow - I have not tried to push out the boundaries of student learning and have merely defaulted to the end of term programme.

We are watching movies in class!

The programme for my junior classes today was :

Pirates of the Carribean
Torque
Bro'town

And before I get pillorised, Torque is a good case for me to explain to my earstwhile charges how not to ride motorbike! (but they don't care, they just think it's cool! :rolleyes:)

I think last period shall be ... assessments for my seniors! I may have a revolt on my hands! :devil2:

[Number One]

There is probably nothing standing in your way to "voluntarily" subscribe toward the teachers pay now as matter of personal choice! :niceone:

yeaaaahhhhh nnaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

I considered going into teaching (kids) then I remembered myself and other kids I decided FUCK THAT! hahahahaa also personally I work for money...not just love or a spirit of service so i would've ended up being one of those teachers that threw whiteboard pens and chairs at the little darlings...it all went down hill when teachers were no longer allowed to strap them I reckon :msn-wink: :devil2:


Doubt it.
Considering the fact that education levels have statistically dropped when teachers income has increased.

I wonder if actually the kids are just getting dumber

.....mwahahahahaaaaaaa that'll get the pre-pubes going.

[avgas]

I wonder if actually the kids are just getting dumber
It is wiser to say nothing at all, and have people doubt your abilities. Than to say something and remove all doubt.

Kids these days just talk too much.

However I have noticed that very few try and nut out problems these days - it seems many just have a "tack-the-answer-don't-understand" motto about them.

When did learning become simple "broadcast teaching" ?

[SVboy]

You answer is a generalisation based on what? Your experience as a teacher? Be lovely if "simple broadcast teaching " was all it took now days, but that is not the reality in teaching these days. We can all get nostalgic for the "good old days", but our society has changed in such a diverse and difficult manner that teachers have to learn, adapt and teach in ways that are intensive ,skilled, and up to the minute. Well done me! I appear to answered your previous post asking the reason why teachers feel they are worth more in $$ and conditions.
Dont believe me? As I have said previously-TRY OUR JOB! :bleh:



It is wiser to say nothing at all, and have people doubt your abilities. Than to say something and remove all doubt.

Kids these days just talk too much.

However I have noticed that very few try and nut out problems these days - it seems many just have a "tack-the-answer-don't-understand" motto about them.

When did learning become simple "broadcast teaching" ?

[oldrider]

You answer is a generalisation based on what? Your experience as a teacher? Be lovely if "simple broadcast teaching " was all it took now days, but that is not the reality in teaching these days. We can all get nostalgic for the "good old days", but our society has changed in such a diverse and difficult manner that teachers have to learn, adapt and teach in ways that are intensive ,skilled, and up to the minute. Well done me! I appear to answered your previous post asking the reason why teachers feel they are worth more in $$ and conditions.
Dont believe me? As I have said previously-TRY OUR JOB! :bleh:

Try our job? Not a good argument sorry! :no:

Voters don't need to have been politicians to be able to judge political performance!

Personally I had 16 years as a teachers customer, most of us have had something similar, we don't need to "try your job", we have all suffered the consequences as teachers customers!

Experience enough in my estimation!

There are always more followers than there are leaders in the world, just as there are fewer excellent teachers (who are worth their weight in gold IMHO) than there are filling the ranks of teaching mediocrity!

How anyone could ever claim collective equality in teacher performance is beyond comprehension IMHO! :oi-grr:

[avgas]

You answer is a generalisation based on what? Your experience as a teacher?
Nope - being a tutor/trainer
Used to be a case of me just being the poly-filla......

But lately my poly-filla, has been used for foundations.......

Not really blaming secondary school teachers for this though, as many of the clients have tertiary education as well.

But while I agree with what you have said about the world changing.......does this justify that you should be paid more? If so, why specifically? What are the problem points? Do you do more work since this has changed? (I think this is the point your trying to make)
Validate your argument.

[Smifffy]

Everyone's job evolves, due to changes in technology, methods or laws etc.

[Squiggles]

Personally I had 16 years as a teachers customer

That would've been in the early 50s? 34 years before corporal punishment was banned in schools (89) :eek: 40 years before the internet explorer was released (95) :eek: Steve Jobs wasnt even 1yo! :lol:

Are our own experiences enough to make calls on the teachers of today?

[scracha]

It's a shame there aren't loads more men in the teaching profession - both primary and secondary. Good male role models are important for both male and female students.

The whole education system seems geared towards the needs of female students, female parents and female teachers. Shite pay aside, one of the main reasons I got out was all the PC bullshit. Couldn't call a spade a spade. Sometimes you'd just want to tell parents their kid was a first class little shit in need of some parental attention, instead of referring to ADHD or other bollox behavioral disorder the local glorified social workers had dreamed up to appease mummy and daddy. And don't get me started on working with other teachers. Christ, about 1/4 of them were fantastic, 1/4 average and the other 1/2 couldn't get a job at McDonalds. Unfortunately it seemed to be the most useless that ended up heading departments. I'm all for better teacher pay. It's a stressful job. However, it should be performance related and based on peer reviews. Get rid of the dross and pay the good ones what they deserve.

[MikeL]

Funny how many middle-aged men retain bitter memories of their school-days which colour their view of the teaching profession even today. Does it ever occur to them that if teachers had had higher status back then, if teaching had been valued as a profession in the way medicine, engineering and law were, there might have been fewer drongos, time-servers and sadists in the job? When the current popular opinion was "Men who can, do; men who can't, teach" it was not surprising that many talented people preferred other occupations.
At times of severe teacher shortages back in the sixties the main qualification for being put in front of a class was having a pulse. (Even so we had some doubts about some of our teachers...)
It is nevertheless likely that most of the aforesaid middle-aged men who complain so bitterly about their schooldays received a better education than they care to admit, even if it was sometimes achieved in spite of the teachers rather than because of them. Their perception is distorted by the vividness of a child's experiences of injustice, hypocrisy and other wrongs (all of which occurred from time to time), and they forget either the positive contribution of the teacher or the fact that they themselves were reluctant or resistant participants in their own education.

[oldrider]

That would've been in the early 50s? 34 years before corporal punishment was banned in schools (89) :eek: 40 years before the internet explorer was released (95) :eek: Steve Jobs wasnt even 1yo! :lol:

Are our own experiences enough to make calls on the teachers of today?

:lol: That would all be true if it all simply stopped back then but you have to allow for continuity through relations, friends, children and grandchildren


The whole education system seems geared towards the needs of female students, female parents and female teachers. Shite pay aside, one of the main reasons I got out was all the PC bullshit. Couldn't call a spade a spade. Sometimes you'd just want to tell parents their kid was a first class little shit in need of some parental attention, instead of referring to ADHD or other bollox behavioral disorder the local glorified social workers had dreamed up to appease mummy and daddy. And don't get me started on working with other teachers. Christ, about 1/4 of them were fantastic, 1/4 average and the other 1/2 couldn't get a job at McDonalds. Unfortunately it seemed to be the most useless that ended up heading departments. I'm all for better teacher pay. It's a stressful job. However, it should be performance related and based on peer reviews. Get rid of the dross and pay the good ones what they deserve.

Teachers standing in the community began to deteriorate from the time they formed their union and collectively protected the poor performers, at the expense of the high performers!

Teachers value today is determined by the lowest common denominator, (as ye sow, then shall ye reap) collectivism breeds mediocrity!


Funny how many middle-aged men retain bitter memories of their school-days which colour their view of the teaching profession even today. Does it ever occur to them that if teachers had had higher status back then, if teaching had been valued as a profession in the way medicine, engineering and law were, there might have been fewer drongos, time-servers and sadists in the job? When the current popular opinion was "Men who can, do; men who can't, teach" it was not surprising that many talented people preferred other occupations.
At times of severe teacher shortages back in the sixties the main qualification for being put in front of a class was having a pulse. (Even so we had some doubts about some of our teachers...)
It is nevertheless likely that most of the aforesaid middle-aged men who complain so bitterly about their schooldays received a better education than they care to admit, even if it was sometimes achieved in spite of the teachers rather than because of them. Their perception is distorted by the vividness of a child's experiences of injustice, hypocrisy and other wrongs (all of which occurred from time to time), and they forget either the positive contribution of the teacher or the fact that they themselves were reluctant or resistant participants in their own education.

Middle aged? I wish!

Your assumption that teachers of yesterday were not held in high regard is false, it is only today under collective unionism that teachers have begun to be lumped in together, good bad or indifferent, they are all judged to be the same!

This is because the teachers themselves, good bad or indifferent, much like chronic alcoholics, insist on clinging to and defending that bottle! :doh:

[Oscar]

Agreed on all counts, bringing back caning wouldnt go amiss either.

Teachers arent a special group of people where their proffession is unique in being irksome and challenging, they also arent unique in wanting to be paid more. But there isnt more available and they should accept the fact.

Like I said earlier there are other pressing priorities like reinstating a half credible Air Force after the arch lezzo of them all messed with it

Four punctuation errors and a spelling mistake.
Where did you go to school, Robert?
Were you irksome and challenging to teach?

[SVboy]

And your "counter argument' is what exactly? You had a shit time at school way back when and yet you can make a judgement as to what I,m worth now and the fact that teachers of differing strengths should be paid on some mystery scale based on what? Results-Oh I see-so people like myself who specialise in students with challenging behaviours and limited abilities would get little, because the students would not achieve according to the "national standards'!! That sounds clever. You say there are fewer excellent teachers-eh? What do you base that fact less statement on?
And finally, being a student back in the old days does not give you the experience to pass judgement on my colleagues and I.



Try our job? Not a good argument sorry! :no:

Voters don't need to have been politicians to be able to judge political performance!

Personally I had 16 years as a teachers customer, most of us have had something similar, we don't need to "try your job", we have all suffered the consequences as teachers customers!

Experience enough in my estimation!

There are always more followers than there are leaders in the world, just as there are fewer excellent teachers (who are worth their weight in gold IMHO) than there are filling the ranks of teaching mediocrity!

How anyone could ever claim collective equality in teacher performance is beyond comprehension IMHO! :oi-grr:

[Swoop]

I have no problem with teachers being paid more. In fact I think everyone has a right to apply for a pay rise.

However, I have one simple question - WHY?

What has significantly changed in teachers lives that requires them to have more money?
Inflation. The cost of living. GST increase.

Wages are failing to keep up with the cost of living (except for politicians, of course).

[gijoe1313]

Well gosh and darn it to heck, I wanted to take it easy and fall asleep in class - but my seniors all insisted on doing their speech assessments sheesh! :oi-grr: And I had "Walking Tall" playing for the movie!

I dunno, the youf of today!

Had to trudge out of the warm classroom to the cricket pitch to watch a speech about cricket, another lad did his football skills, etc etc. It's like they wanted to get their credits or something! :rolleyes:

And the elation and relief they had when realised they had done much better than they thought. I must be getting softer in my old age. Letting them have merits and excellence. Tch. Will go to their heads it will! :msn-wink:

So much for kicking back and taking it easy on the last day of term! The cheek of it! :nono:

I even had to enter their marks under their insistence! I dunno, do they think it's my job or something to do that? :scratch:

[SVboy]

Fair question. I have been in teaching long enough to see a huge shift and increase in what is expected in modern teaching. To keep it brief, not only is there the challenge of keeping education relevant and up to date, there is the huge increase in administrivia, the need to produce results AND the need to have skills to deal with students who are the product of an often diverse and fractured background. It is not easy,and INMO and experience, teachers who cant cope quickly dont and leave. [despite that reactionary rubbish OLDRIDER was dribbling about the union protecting the mediocre!!] . Sounds like you have had a taste of how it can be in our world . Again I state that the $$ is only part of a package aimed at enhancing being a teacher. What would be the attraction for a teacher to stay current, make the extra effort and maintain the passion if the $$ are not keeping up with inflation. [Let alone attracting quality people into the job]


Nope - being a tutor/trainer
Used to be a case of me just being the poly-filla......

But lately my poly-filla, has been used for foundations.......

Not really blaming secondary school teachers for this though, as many of the clients have tertiary education as well.

But while I agree with what you have said about the world changing.......does this justify that you should be paid more? If so, why specifically? What are the problem points? Do you do more work since this has changed? (I think this is the point your trying to make)
Validate your argument.

[mashman]

Inflation. The cost of living. GST increase.

Wages are failing to keep up with the cost of living (except for politicians, of course).

don't forget the extra 30 cents per hundred bucks earned for the employee levy :) (to pay for proposed business discounts no doubt :shit:).

[Shorty_925]

Again I state that the $$ is only part of a package aimed at enhancing being a teacher. What would be the attraction for a teacher to stay current, make the extra effort and maintain the passion if the $$ are not keeping up with inflation. [Let alone attracting quality people into the job]

$'s is all its about, never anything else. Theres alot of jobs that havent and arent kept up with inflation and comparing to alot of jobs, teachers get it very good.

[Smifffy]

Go on strike then, maybe it'll force a few parents to wake up to what their sprogs get up to, rather than relying on a state appointed nanny service.

When you have lost a week or two's worth of wages and some of your demands are (partially) met, you will be able to sit back with the satisfaction that it was all for the good of the students.

Any teachers planning on putting in two 40 hour weeks from the 27th?