Police saving our lives again

[oldrider]

Basically it all comes down to "attitude" and the population of this country has a "bad attitude" towards almost "every-bloody-thing"! Case closed. IMHO. :spanking:

[riffer]

Personally, I think it's all the crashers' fault. :blink:

[red mermaid]

And how are you supposed to judge a persons total driving skills from a glimpse of maybe 30 seconds of driving?




I do believe the cops do look at driving ability when they're on patrol, but it is an area very hard to quantify with stats. Perhaps the Police on KB can tell us how much effort they put in to general driving standards?

[pritch]

The Police hierarchy have their heads up their collective arse. I'm with Whale Oil (and "Paranormal"):

http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/2010/10/27/some-more-thoughts-on-road-safety/

[baptist]

...
Certainly I deplore the acceptance of driving standards by the authorities, especially with immigrants! Far too many are allowed behind the wheel without what I would consider a minimum level of competence. Generally the NZ Licencing system is okay IMHO, and the kids learning to drive today are doing very well. Notable is the fact that it is the 20 somethings causing the most carnage, with immigrant/tourist drivers about the next highest offender's.

Think you need to quantify the remarks a little. I am an "immigrant" and when I moved to NZ from the UK, over ten years ago, the first thing I noticed was the crap standard of driving on the roads here and it has not improved (and our driving test was mickey mouse!). I was raised in London, way more traffic, and way more discipline in driving, ditto on the motorways. One thing also was that in those days (I believe it has changed now) the cops would not give a ticket on the motorway for anything under 85mph They were more concerned with poor lane changes etc.

[Edbear]

And how are you supposed to judge a persons total driving skills from a glimpse of maybe 30 seconds of driving?

Only takes a few seconds to see if someone's driving badly... :yes:

[Edbear]

Think you need to quantify the remarks a little. I am an "immigrant" and when I moved to NZ from the UK, over ten years ago, the first thing I noticed was the crap standard of driving on the roads here and it has not improved (and our driving test was mickey mouse!). I was raised in London, way more traffic, and way more discipline in driving, ditto on the motorways. One thing also was that in those days (I believe it has changed now) the cops would not give a ticket on the motorway for anything under 85mph They were more concerned with poor lane changes etc.

You're right of course! Many European drivers deplore the standard of driving here, and having a son-in-law from Germany I understand what you say. I did comment about bringing in the German licencing system over here as an example.

[red mermaid]

If that was correct the driving test would last 30 seconds.

[Rych]

I can determine bad driving in 30sec not necessarily a bad driver. Only takes 2sec to cross the centre line, fail to stop short, fail to navigate a corner etc...

[red mermaid]

Exactly, you can see an offence in a couple of seconds but whether that is a complete picture of the persons driving ability...?

[Rych]

Driving ability doesn't matter, doesn't matter if they are a Formula 1 / MotoGP racer, it doesn't change the fact that a dangerous manover is still dangerous and the consequences for dangerous or careless actions are the same.

[Edbear]

Driving ability doesn't matter, doesn't matter if they are a Formula 1 / MotoGP racer, it doesn't change the fact that a dangerous manover is still dangerous and the consequences for dangerous or careless actions are the same.

That was my point. Police are as easily able to spot moronic driving as we are, so the question was how often do they pull someone over for careless in addition to speeding?

After all, the traffic cops spend far more time on the road than most of us and must be very familiar with the general standards of driving in NZ. You hear them comment on such programmes as we watch on TV and the despair in the tone of their voice as they point out the mistakes of Mr. and Mrs. Joe Average behind the wheel. :bye:

[avgas]

Get a few youngster's together with beer and testosterone flowing freely, egging each other on and all sense of reason gets flushed down the toilet.
Or a group of 40+ bikers with new bikes.
Same cheese, just a a little older.

What gets me is the born again numpties on new BMW's who don't know where to put themselves on the road.

At least with the young squids you can hear them coming.

[red mermaid]

You can do sneaky things like....oh no, thats right, people whinge about that sort of thing and flash their headlights to warn other drivers.

[Ocean1]

You can do sneaky things like....oh no, thats right, people whinge about that sort of thing and flash their headlights to warn other drivers.

That's just for offences that we consider well unjustified. Y'know, 105Km on the urban "motorway".

You dudes still not allowed to ambush patrons outside a pub carpark of an evening?

[red mermaid]

And who decides what is well unjustified?

[pritch]

You dudes still not allowed to ambush patrons outside a pub carpark of an evening?

I don't know what gave you the idea there was a rule like that. That happened to a car I was in near Nelson one night. That cop was a bit ummm creative(?) too. He presumably saw the headlights of our car on the foliage across the road and turned his lights off.

I commented to the driver that there had been a car coming but that that the headlights had disappeared. A couple of hundred metres down the road the cop switched on all his lights...


The President of the local RSA was leaving one evening as a cop car went past in the other direction. The cop did a U turn and pulled him over.

Both drivers passed the breath tests.

When visiting a pub or club it's generally a good idea to leave your transport somewhere it will not be automatically associated with the venue if seen. Of course it's also a good idea not to exceed the blood alcohol limit. :whistle:

[Ocean1]

And who decides what is well unjustified?

The person on the end of the light switch, obviously. Same as you guys.


I don't know what gave you the idea there was a rule like that. :

Oh it was fookin' years ago, during one of the early tweaks to the DIC laws. Te public were revolting and it was admitted to be a bit OTT to shoot fish in a bowl like that, entrapment an' all.

I remember thinking at the time "blast away dudes, they're not game they're noxious pests, they're ALWAYS in season.

So, legal nitpickery notwithstanding who here reckons it's OK to travel at the speed at which you're most comfortable and less likely to daydream?

[MSTRS]

:wavey: Yoohoo...over here...
Me.

[scumdog]

Only takes a few seconds to see if someone's driving badly... :yes:

In most cases a persons BEST driving is when they know they're being watched.

More muftis needed I say.

[scumdog]

You dudes still not allowed to ambush patrons outside a pub carpark of an evening?



Hell, my BEST 'hunting' has been by ambushing pub leavers..:yes:

[MSTRS]

I thought it was illegal to set bait...

[Edbear]

In most cases a persons BEST driving is when they know they're being watched.

More muftis needed I say.

More Mufti's are fine, but I also think a visible presence has an important part to play. Anything that reminds a driver/rider to pay attention to their driving/riding has to be a good thing.


I thought it was illegal to set bait...

It's definitely illegal to drink and drive, so the only people who need worry are those who choose to do so. Personally I'd be fine with a cop car parked outside every Pub!

Why do people on the one hand deplore drunk driving, yet criticise the Police for so-called entrapment?

[MSTRS]

If one has to explain what one means, then one is talking to the wrong audience...:innocent:

[scumdog]

More Mufti's are fine, but I also think a visible presence has an important part to play. Anything that reminds a driver/rider to pay attention to their driving/riding has to be a good thing.


Yeah, but when they can no longer see a cop car? - it's brain in neutral and resume non-compo-mentis driving behaviour that they wouldn't do when there was a cop nearby.

[MSTRS]

Yeah, but when they can no longer see a cop car? - it's brain in neutral and resume non-compo-mentis driving behaviour that they wouldn't do when there was a cop nearby.

True that. Funny how they all know what to do at roundabouts when there's a marked car sitting observing...

[Edbear]

Yeah, but when they can no longer see a cop car? - it's brain in neutral and resume non-compo-mentis driving behaviour that they wouldn't do when there was a cop nearby.

Yeah, like when you keep checking your mirror to notice when you've drawn ahead far enough that you can ease down on the accelerator without him noticing your increase in speed... :innocent: Or saying, "About time!" when he turns off the road and you can edge back up to where you were... :yes:

I always laugh to see traffic doing just under the 100km/h suddenly slow down to 85-90km/h when they spot a cop, usually far too late to do anything about it if they'd been speeding anyway, (or when the copper is on the opposite side of the median barrier and stopped to talk to a driver they've pulled over), then speed up back to their sub-legal former speed once past! :facepalm:

I've often been overtaken by drivers doing about the 120 mark who halfway past spot a camera van or cop and slam the brakes on, falling back behind me to about 90 while I continue along at my steady 105, then have them come barrelling up behind and passing me again once clear! :blink:

[scumdog]

I always laugh to see traffic doing just under the 100km/h suddenly slow down to 85-90km/h when they spot a cop, usually far too late to do anything about it if they'd been speeding anyway, (or when the copper is on the opposite side of the median barrier and stopped to talk to a driver they've pulled over), then speed up back to their sub-legal former speed once past! :facepalm:

Yep, poh-leece cars have a magic gizmo that sucks horsepower out of any car near them....:woohoo:

Or so you would think when you see what happens when they get near most cars.:blink:

[Edbear]

Yep, poh-leece cars have a magic gizmo that sucks horsepower out of any car near them....:woohoo:

Or so you would think when you see what happens when they get near most cars.:blink:

It must be so stressful to drive on the roads here, having to worry about glancing down a the speedo regularly to check your speed, worry that that cop is going to pull you over despite your speed being under the limit, worry that driving a car or bike unregistered and unwarranted may get you in trouble, worrying that you might come across a Booze Bus when you know you've had too much but drove/rode anyway on the chance you'll be fine...

Boy the Cops have so much to answer for! :angry:

[Dare]

In most cases a persons BEST driving is when they know they're being watched.

More muftis needed I say.

I'd be happier with that notion if I was sure that the muftis were pulling people over for running red lights/failing to indicate/pulling into moving traffic without looking etc rather than doing 56/106kmh. Re: Edbears comment I was in the UK a few years ago and traffic regularly moves at 80-90mph without anyone losing control of their vehicle (gasp).. The difference is there are less people driving in a kind of daydream where mirrors, safe following distance and peripheral vision are for other people.

[shrub]

I'd be happier with that notion if I was sure that the muftis were pulling people over for running red lights/failing to indicate/pulling into moving traffic without looking etc rather than doing 56/106kmh. Re: Edbears comment I was in the UK a few years ago and traffic regularly moves at 80-90mph without anyone losing control of their vehicle (gasp).. The difference is there are less people driving in a kind of daydream where mirrors, safe following distance and peripheral vision are for other people.

It's my belief as an experienced road user that higher speeds may in fact be safer. I know when I travel at slow speeds on the open road i find myself drifting off into a day dream, whereas at my preferred open road speed of 120 kmh I am travelling fast enough that I know I have to concentrate and remain completely focussed on the task in hand - riding.

[Edbear]

I'd be happier with that notion if I was sure that the muftis were pulling people over for running red lights/failing to indicate/pulling into moving traffic without looking etc rather than doing 56/106kmh. Re: Edbears comment I was in the UK a few years ago and traffic regularly moves at 80-90mph without anyone losing control of their vehicle (gasp).. The difference is there are less people driving in a kind of daydream where mirrors, safe following distance and peripheral vision are for other people.


The standard of driving in the UK and Germany is generally far higher than here. The consequences of losing your licence in Germany are extremely serious and it is very hard and very expensive to get it back!

And I have asked the cops on here if they can confirm the interest they take in policing those other areas you mention as well.


It's my belief as an experienced road user that higher speeds may in fact be safer. I know when I travel at slow speeds on the open road i find myself drifting off into a day dream, whereas at my preferred open road speed of 120 kmh I am travelling fast enough that I know I have to concentrate and remain completely focussed on the task in hand - riding.

That's the rub, isn't it? For every person experienced and capable, comfortable with speeds over the speed limit, there are a few hundred, (thousand?), who are, shall we say, "Unsafe at any speed!" The cops have no way of telling if the person they clock over the limit is competent or not and speed cameras are arbitrary and impersonal. The accident record, though, shows too often that those who crash definitely thought they were quite capable of handling the speeds they were driving at. The cops have to be consistent, otherwise with doubt and uncertainty as to the consequences of exceeding the limit, far more drivers/riders would do so on the off-chance they will be able to get off.

[shrub]

That's the rub, isn't it? For every person experienced and capable, comfortable with speeds over the speed limit, there are a few hundred, (thousand?), who are, shall we say, "Unsafe at any speed!" The cops have no way of telling if the person they clock over the limit is competent or not and speed cameras are arbitrary and impersonal. The accident record, though, shows too often that those who crash definitely thought they were quite capable of handling the speeds they were driving at. The cops have to be consistent, otherwise with doubt and uncertainty as to the consequences of exceeding the limit, far more drivers/riders would do so on the off-chance they will be able to get off.

Personally I think licensing should be much, much harder. I wouldn't have a problem resitting all my licenses every 5 years - I'd probably let my heavy trade lapse because I haven't driven a truck in 15 years, but i'd be happy to be checked regularly.

I'd also like to see formal driver and rider training made compulsory and licenses dependent on distance travelled, not time. Make learners keep a log book and record their driving and riding experience, and only issue a license once someone has driven a minimum amount on the open road, in the dark, in rain etc - maybe we wouldn't get people completely losing the plot the moment it starts raining.

I believe 99.9% of the population don't want to drive badly or dangerously, but the high percentage of idiots on the road are idiots because they know no better. I was travelling with a friend who was tailgating everyone she was behind, and I commented on it. She replied "I'm not following too close - am I?" So we did the 2 second test, and she realised she was tailgating, and when I explained that if the person in front had to stop she would be liable for the crash she pulled back. Her bad driving was due to ignorance not attitude, so why try and change her attitude by penalising her when educating makes more sense?

As for the open road speed, if people understood more about road safety and had better driving skills, speeds would be self policing because the only people who are going to intentionally place themselves in danger are the people who don't give a shit about the law anyway. I like to cruise at 120 kmh not 130 kmh because I don't feel safe at 130, and people who feel comfortable at 110 kmh will travel at that speed, and so on. The only rule should be a minimum speed of (say) 90 kmh. If you can't travel at that speed, then you have no right to be on the open road. There should also be more passing lanes and slow drivers should be educated to pull over.

[red mermaid]

So following that line of reasoning, around town at about 50 km/h you would be practically dangerous and should walk?



It's my belief as an experienced road user that higher speeds may in fact be safer. I know when I travel at slow speeds on the open road i find myself drifting off into a day dream, whereas at my preferred open road speed of 120 kmh I am travelling fast enough that I know I have to concentrate and remain completely focussed on the task in hand - riding.

[Neshi]

Enough of your crazy ideas!! The gubbinment knows better.:facepalm:

That would be "failure to keep left" and should be at ANY speed.



I had an interesting chat with a German fellow who sat his licence some years ago.
A minimum of 15 lessons from an instructor.
Specific areas of training (motorway, city, open road, parking, etc, etc).
NO family member allowed to train another.
The equivalent of 4 MONTHS pay to obtain the licence (reason to NOT do anything silly and lose it!).

Food for thought Mr Politician.

just 15?
In the Netherlands it's a minimum of 25 hours for a car license, and 20 for a motorcycle.. the rest is exactly the same.

[Swoop]

just 15?
In the Netherlands it's a minimum of 25 hours for a car license, and 20 for a motorcycle.. the rest is exactly the same.

A minimum of 15...

[Ocean1]

why try and change her attitude by penalising her when educating makes more sense?

Here's another one: Why try to change anyone's attitude by penalising them when it doesn't work?

As a mitigating strategy for adults it's utterly pointless, as an exercise in authority it's counterproductive and as an example of human sociological behaviour it's odious in the extreme.

*Sigh* Leme see... Assuming that:
All motorists have a speed at which they are less likely to make mistakes. This speed varies from one motorist to another.

All motorists have a certain, quantifiable ability to focus on the task in hand, be it writing counting stock or driving. This ability varies from one motorist to another.

All motorists have a particular set of abilities relating to spatial awareness and speed perception. This ability varies enormously from one motorist to another.

All motorists have a set database of experience from which they can evaluate the behaviour of other motorists and how that might affect their safe options. This ability varies, a lot, from one whippersnapper to another old codger.

All motorists have an ability to react rapidly and correctly to potentially harmful events.

Need I go on? You can’t construct a single set of rules for behaviour which makes everyone safe. You can’t even make a set of rules that necessarily make everyone safer than having no rules at all. Yeah, I know, it’s heretical. Prove me wrong. A wee visit to any one of a number of major Asian cities would settle the issue, the rules aren’t policed at all, they’re universally ignored and the accident rate isn’t distinguishable from such self-flagellating, anally retentive communities as we have here.

I can’t believe the bullshit I read here: “Everyone but me is incompetent, I want to train them until they see things my way and then I want to ping the fuck out of them until I they do what I want.”

I’ve had a guts full of wee small men who see the whole structure of authority as a means of asserting dominance. Sick of it. Here’s a novel idea: FUCK OFF. Let each of us behave the way we believe manages the best compromise between the public and personal good.

I wonder if I’ll live long enough to end up in pokey for not paying that parking fine...

[Brian d marge]

Here's another one: Why try to change anyone's attitude by penalising them when it doesn't work?

As a mitigating strategy for adults it's utterly pointless, as an exercise in authority it's counterproductive and as an example of human sociological behaviour it's odious in the extreme.

*Sigh* Leme see... Assuming that:
All motorists have a speed at which they are less likely to make mistakes. This speed varies from one motorist to another.

All motorists have a certain, quantifiable ability to focus on the task in hand, be it writing counting stock or driving. This ability varies from one motorist to another.

All motorists have a particular set of abilities relating to spatial awareness and speed perception. This ability varies enormously from one motorist to another.

All motorists have a set database of experience from which they can evaluate the behaviour of other motorists and how that might affect their safe options. This ability varies, a lot, from one whippersnapper to another old codger.

All motorists have an ability to react rapidly and correctly to potentially harmful events.

Need I go on? You can’t construct a single set of rules for behaviour which makes everyone safe. You can’t even make a set of rules that necessarily make everyone safer than having no rules at all. Yeah, I know, it’s heretical. Prove me wrong. A wee visit to any one of a number of major Asian cities would settle the issue, the rules aren’t policed at all, they’re universally ignored and the accident rate isn’t distinguishable from such self-flagellating, anally retentive communities as we have here.

I can’t believe the bullshit I read here: “Everyone but me is incompetent, I want to train them until they see things my way and then I want to ping the fuck out of them until I they do what I want.”

I’ve had a guts full of wee small men who see the whole structure of authority as a means of asserting dominance. Sick of it. Here’s a novel idea: FUCK OFF. Let each of us behave the way we believe manages the best compromise between the public and personal good.

I wonder if I’ll live long enough to end up in pokey for not paying that parking fine...

Places like Canada have quite reasonable traffic laws ( from memory ) , where they use the 80-/20 rule ,,,80 percent will drive to the road condition , and 20 wont
so monitor the traffic , see what the median speed it and set it at that , THEN fine /educate /beat those that dont ....

Stephen

[Rych]

Here's another one: Why try to change anyone's attitude by penalising them when it doesn't work?

As a mitigating strategy for adults it's utterly pointless, as an exercise in authority it's counterproductive and as an example of human sociological behaviour it's odious in the extreme.

*Sigh* Leme see... Assuming that:
All motorists have a speed at which they are less likely to make mistakes. This speed varies from one motorist to another.

All motorists have a certain, quantifiable ability to focus on the task in hand, be it writing counting stock or driving. This ability varies from one motorist to another.

All motorists have a particular set of abilities relating to spatial awareness and speed perception. This ability varies enormously from one motorist to another.

All motorists have a set database of experience from which they can evaluate the behaviour of other motorists and how that might affect their safe options. This ability varies, a lot, from one whippersnapper to another old codger.

All motorists have an ability to react rapidly and correctly to potentially harmful events.

Need I go on? You can’t construct a single set of rules for behaviour which makes everyone safe. You can’t even make a set of rules that necessarily make everyone safer than having no rules at all. Yeah, I know, it’s heretical. Prove me wrong. A wee visit to any one of a number of major Asian cities would settle the issue, the rules aren’t policed at all, they’re universally ignored and the accident rate isn’t distinguishable from such self-flagellating, anally retentive communities as we have here.

I can’t believe the bullshit I read here: “Everyone but me is incompetent, I want to train them until they see things my way and then I want to ping the fuck out of them until I they do what I want.”

I’ve had a guts full of wee small men who see the whole structure of authority as a means of asserting dominance. Sick of it. Here’s a novel idea: FUCK OFF. Let each of us behave the way we believe manages the best compromise between the public and personal good.

I wonder if I’ll live long enough to end up in pokey for not paying that parking fine...
Interesting post mate, and I can agree with a lot of what you say. Rules/regulations/limits don't necessarily make anything any better. The fact is that human's will keep trying, keep changing, keep researching and certain things will never change, we are just humans.

I believe a lot of New Zealander's expect a lot, blame agencies, blame the police, have their little/big ideas they think will just magically fix everything, the fact is everything said in this thread has probably been thought of, the police have looked into, you just can't fix everything.

[SpeedMonger]

I believe a lot of New Zealander's expect a lot, blame agencies, blame the police, have their little/big ideas they think will just magically fix everything, the fact is everything said in this thread has probably been thought of, the police have looked into, you just can't fix everything.

What sort of defeatist nanny state bollox is that? I have a 7.62mm smokestick that has the capability to fix any problem I point it at ....:innocent:

As a bone fide taxpayer I am entitled to expect a lot, including sensible traffic laws.

[scumdog]

As a bone fide taxpayer I am entitled to expect a lot, including sensible traffic laws.

And I expect to win Lotto...:blink:

[pritch]

And I expect to win Lotto...:blink:

Just 'cause you got your picture on TV it doesn't necessarily follow that you're going to win Lotto. :devil2:

[shrub]

What sort of defeatist nanny state bollox is that? I have a 7.62mm smokestick that has the capability to fix any problem I point it at ....:innocent:

As a bone fide taxpayer I am entitled to expect a lot, including sensible traffic laws.

The only problem is the majority of our good citizens have been educated to believe that sensible traffic laws include 100 kmh open road maximums, and TPTB are working hard to set us up for a 4 kmh tolerance instead of 10 kmh.

Politically we're in a conservative phase which is why our country is run by bankers and accountants, and something as radical as looking beyond "excessive speed = dangerous and excessive speed is 105 kmh" is unlikely.

[Varkp]

104 kph = more revenue

child abuse cases = NO revenue

go figure ..

[Max Preload]

That's the rub, isn't it? For every person experienced and capable, comfortable with speeds over the speed limit, there are a few hundred, (thousand?), who are, shall we say, "Unsafe at any speed!" The cops have no way of telling if the person they clock over the limit is competent or not and speed cameras are arbitrary and impersonal.That's where proper driving testing comes in. Right now we're catering for people who should never have been let loose on the road in the first place. They believe that as long as they drive slow they're good drivers.

[Patrick]

Perhaps if we could see the full story behind the fatalities it would help? Okay we are told that "speed and alcohol" or "driver inattention" or "mechanical failure" was a contributory factor, but, couold we be told the complete story?..

The Traffic Crash Report has many stat gathering boxes that needs filling. Its all there, including, race, age, sex, weather and road conditions, lighting, advisories and speed limits, the list goes on....

Some of the things that cause crashes are never known, because one doesn't readily admit they fell asleep, were texting at the time etc... So it can be hard to guage an exact reason - but speed and physics is easy to detect and is hard to dispute...

There isn't a box though, for that fucking black dog that caused them to swerve to avoid, and then crash... That mutt gets around.....


You're an old cunt aincha? Don't you remember the LSZ signs around the countryside? Well the road toll was lower when we had 'em, it's that simple..

LSZ's lowered the road toll?:gob:


If Police presence lowers the road toll by reducing tiredness and stupidity

And the fact says increasing speed (e.g., from 80kph to 100kph) reduces the road toll

Then obviously if we want 0 road fatality, we should have roads with unlimited speed and lined with police cars.

Yep. That'll work.... Until the numpties fall off the road into them parked Police Cars. Coz it'll be their fault, being parked there and all.....


Drove down to Hamilton to visit the outlaws.. There were lots of signs telling us that there were more cops out there and yes I saw a couple too. However I saw four speed camera vans as well, so I guess some cops got some fishing in.

The unmarked vans were parked in obscure little spots to trap speedsters. ?

1. Cops don't run speed camera vans....

2. Just speeders? Says who? Perhaps they were there looking for crap passing in blind spots, cutting in when overtaking, tailgaters, slow drivers, just to name a few....

But hey, keep flashing them headlights to warn all those piss poor drivers to never get caught.


You can do sneaky things like....oh no, thats right, people whinge about that sort of thing and flash their headlights to warn other drivers.

LOL - becasue it's all about speed, some think.....:facepalm:


That's just for offences that we consider well unjustified. Y'know, 105Km on the urban "motorway".

You dudes still not allowed to ambush patrons outside a pub carpark of an evening?

Hell yeah!!!

That thing went back to the days when the MOT marked the headlights of the cars parked in the pub carpark with crayon, so when they drove off, (usually with the lights on...), Mr MOT knew they came from the pub. That, they said, was "unfair..."

Pfffttt... The powers that be would rather have a pissed driver slam into their family than poor pissed driver lose their license in this way? That was unfair...? Go figure.



....Why do people on the one hand deplore drunk driving, yet criticise the Police for so-called entrapment?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't....


104 kph = more revenue

child abuse cases = NO revenue

go figure ..

Detectives (who do the child abuse investigations) who know what a ticket book looks like? = 0

People who think Detectives issue tickets = 4,129,567.... plus or minus a few hundy....

Go figure....

[Edbear]

The Traffic Crash Report has many stat gathering boxes that needs filling. Its all there, including, race, age, sex, weather and road conditions, lighting, advisories and speed limits, the list goes on....

Some of the things that cause crashes are never known, because one doesn't readily admit they fell asleep, were texting at the time etc... So it can be hard to guage an exact reason - but speed and physics is easy to detect and is hard to dispute...

There isn't a box though, for that fucking black dog that caused them to swerve to avoid, and then crash... That mutt gets around.....

...SNIP...
LOL - becasue it's all about speed, some think.....:facepalm:

..

While you're online, it would seem that many here believe you target speed above other issues, like driving badly/incompetently/dangerously/inconsiderately, etc. I asked how much the cops look at and pull people over for driving like muppets? I was of the opinion that the Police are on the road daily and drive more kilometers a year than just about anyone here and are very familiar with the general standard of driving in this country so must be at least as frustrated as we are with the incompetence of what appears to be the majority of road users!

[Varkp]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't....



Detectives (who do the child abuse investigations) who know what a ticket book looks like? = 0

People who think Detectives issue tickets = 4,129,567.... plus or minus a few hundy....

Go figure....

Hey Pratdick, how about this scenario

Lets just for a little test, next month everybody that gets a traffic fine, all pay it over to a charity or hospital of their choice and not to the government. Lets see if them traffic officers are still so eager to write said fines, as everybody with a functioning brain know, fines and drink drive limits it the last thing on this planet that are going to stop morons from doing just that. but the powers at be figure, why not make some money out of the fact that there is 4,129,565 potential revenue generating morons out there.

[Kickaha]

Lets see if them traffic officers are still so eager to write said fines

What difference would it make to the person writing the ticket where the money goes?

It's not as though they get a commission

[miloking]

What difference would it make to the person writing the ticket where the money goes?

It's not as though they get a commission

It would make huge difference...because all we hear is "its not at all about the revenue but your safety bla bla"...

Oh and its called salary...

[Kickaha]

It would make huge difference...because all we hear is "its not at all about the revenue but your safety bla bla"...

Oh and its called salary...


They get payed regardless,the amount of tickets issued isn't related to salary so that's a pretty dumb argument, but from you I'd expect nothing less

The revenue argument was fucked the moment they reduced the fines a while back but the brain dead lemmings still wank on about it

[Rych]

Hey Pratdick, how about this scenario

Lets just for a little test, next month everybody that gets a traffic fine, all pay it over to a charity or hospital of their choice and not to the government. Lets see if them traffic officers are still so eager to write said fines, as everybody with a functioning brain know, fines and drink drive limits it the last thing on this planet that are going to stop morons from doing just that. but the powers at be figure, why not make some money out of the fact that there is 4,129,565 potential revenue generating morons out there.
lol it would make no difference, police don't have quota's, don't care where the money goes, don't see where it goes, doesn't effect the police officer in any way where it goes.. Get over this stupid rubbish that police actually care about the $$$, they never see it doesn't effect their income in any way what so ever.

Shyt argument tbh, sick of hearing that crap. If you don't break the law you don't get ticket, or if you don't get caught you don't get ticket, so don't break the law or don't get caught, or pay the ticket...

[scumdog]

It would make huge difference...because all we hear is "its not at all about the revenue but your safety bla bla"...

Oh and its called salary...

And guess the ones writting out the tickets are 'carrying' the detectives etc that never write out ticket???

Stroll on sunshine...:rolleyes:

[Littleman]

I've always preffered cutting off digits as an alternative to fines.

The fucktards will be begging for the return of revenue gathering.

[Max Preload]

LSZ's lowered the road toll?:gob:Well, they didn't do any worse than the 4km/h reduced tolerance did over Labour weekend.

[Brian d marge]

lol it would make no difference, police don't have quota's, don't care where the money goes, don't see where it goes, doesn't effect the police officer in any way where it goes.. Get over this stupid rubbish that police actually care about the $$$, they never see it doesn't effect their income in any way what so ever.

Shyt argument tbh, sick of hearing that crap. If you don't break the law you don't get ticket, or if you don't get caught you don't get ticket, so don't break the law or don't get caught, or pay the ticket...

Its a wonderful State owned enterprise , with the money going straight back to the general fund ,( or summink like that ) and the reasoning behind the 4k and other Rules , is poorly thought out , and simplistic

so the argument that if you don't break said law you wont get fined , while also true , is missing the point

Now if the monies collected were plowed back into teaching me to be a better driver , Fine plus driver ed for a week , and the road speed limit was proportional to the hazard , taking account of conditions and vehicle improvements ( u might find some places are faster than 100 , and others much slower than 50 kmph)

I would say the police /government weren't rorting the great unwashed

but as it stands at the moment its ( imho ) is a sneaky tax and a rather clever one ,

Stephen

[Rych]

Its a wonderful State owned enterprise , with the money going straight back to the general fund ,( or summink like that ) and the reasoning behind the 4k and other Rules , is poorly thought out , and simplistic

so the argument that if you don't break said law you wont get fined , while also true , is missing the point

Now if the monies collected were plowed back into teaching me to be a better driver , Fine plus driver ed for a week , and the road speed limit was proportional to the hazard , taking account of conditions and vehicle improvements ( u might find some places are faster than 100 , and others much slower than 50 kmph)

I would say the police /government weren't rorting the great unwashed

but as it stands at the moment its ( imho ) is a sneaky tax and a rather clever one ,

Stephen
Yea I don't disagree with this, but people are often bagging individual police officers who are just doing their job, they don't make the laws they enforce them. So if people have complaints about the police pinging them for something they disagree with it's not that individual police officers fault, he is following orders/laws that he is goverened by and swore the oath to enforce/protect.

Obviously there are times when the individual officer could have made a different/better judgement call when using his descretion, but in general they just enforcing what the bosses up top tell them too.

[Quasievil]

Speed Cameras are the biggest revenue con.
When these things came out they ran a advert with comments like "where will they be" with an Image showing the roadside crosses with another comment "they are already marked"
Now you can see clearly how they justified it and how NOW this is far from the reality, they usually plonk them in areas where people are most likely to fall into slightly higher speeds, i.e end of passing lanes, bottom of hills etc.

Interestingly the Ozzys are going to privatise the cameras, their contractors performance is based on revenues, not reduction in road fatalities, therefore clearly the government in Australia view it as a cash source and not a life saving, road toll reduction device, A mentality which is shared in this country also I believe.

As for individual cops ticketing for mild offenses, these people choose to do this job and are not forced to, so if you share attitude towards them on receiving a ticket for a mild ticket offence i.e 104 kmph (the other weekend) then good on you and you SHOULD as a NZr not accept this form of B.S.
Especially as the whole weekends campaign and justification for it i.e reduce the road toll on the back of speed kills was nothing but a fail.

With such a cash cow at their disposal and with no real solutions being implented for road toll reduction, I WILL assume that the governments line on reducing the road toll is not real but it is wordplay, while they milk the NZ road users for what they can get !!

[MSTRS]

...If you don't break the law you don't get ticket...

There's an awful lot (of us) who would disagree.
There is a world of difference in 'breaking the law' and a cop saying you did. But at the same time, no difference at all.

[miloking]

There's an awful lot (of us) who would disagree.
There is a world of difference in 'breaking the law' and a cop saying you did. But at the same time, no difference at all.

Ohh but they are just doing their job to save your life, and getting ticket your didnt deserve doesnt happen often enough...if you got ticket you must have deserved it somehow, or must have been rude to the cop its not his fault realy...
...and stop your complaining the revenue collecting went out the window when they discounted the some of the minor fines the other day, and they dont get commision from general fund just salary for driving around and handing out tickets for 105km/h bla bla...

sick and fucking tired of police propaganda and their excuses!

[Jantar]

...
so the argument that if you don't break said law you wont get fined , while also true , is missing the point

......
I wish it were true. There are still too many instances of riders getting fined even when they aren't speeding. Although that situation has improved recently, it is still happening.

[Patrick]

While you're online, it would seem that many here believe you target speed above other issues, like driving badly/incompetently/dangerously/inconsiderately, etc. I asked how much the cops look at and pull people over for driving like muppets? I was of the opinion that the Police are on the road daily and drive more kilometers a year than just about anyone here and are very familiar with the general standard of driving in this country so must be at least as frustrated as we are with the incompetence of what appears to be the majority of road users!

Down here we video intersections for stop sign runners and red light runners, on hand held cameras. The speed is also looked at, but the videos are keeping the crew rather busy........

Yeah, we get out and about a lot, but the behaviours are markedly improved when there is a cop car in the


Hey Pratdick, how about this scenario

Whatever, tosser....:finger:

Kinda lost me with your intelligent opening line....


What difference would it make to the person writing the ticket where the money goes?

It's not as though they get a commission

Unlike places like the States - All monies from forfeited vehicles which are sold, go back to the department that seized it.

NZ Police get nothing.


It would make huge difference...because all we hear is "its not at all about the revenue but your safety bla bla"...

Oh and its called salary...

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: OK then....


They get payed regardless,the amount of tickets issued isn't related to salary so that's a pretty dumb argument, but from you I'd expect nothing less

The revenue argument was fucked the moment they reduced the fines a while back but the brain dead lemmings still wank on about it

Yup - got it in one.....


lol it would make no difference, police don't have quota's, don't care where the money goes, don't see where it goes, doesn't effect the police officer in any way where it goes.. Get over this stupid rubbish that police actually care about the $$$, they never see it doesn't effect their income in any way what so ever.

Shyt argument tbh, sick of hearing that crap. If you don't break the law you don't get ticket, or if you don't get caught you don't get ticket, so don't break the law or don't get caught, or pay the ticket...

Stupid people doing stupid things at stupid times and in stupid places.


, i.e end of passing lanes, bottom of hills etc.

NEVER seen one at the end of passing lanes. I think there is even a policy about this, about not putting them there....

Bottom of hills, perhaps. BUt if you can't see them at the bottom of hills, then somethings wrong with the eyesight....:innocent:

Interestingly the Ozzys are going to privatise the cameras, their contractors performance is based on revenues, not reduction in road fatalities, therefore clearly the government in Australia view it as a cash source and not a life saving, road toll reduction device, A mentality which is shared in this country also I believe.

Has been "civillianised" but not privatised - no plans to do so either, AFAIK.

As for individual cops ticketing for mild offenses, these people choose to do this job and are not forced to, so if you share attitude towards them on receiving a ticket for a mild ticket offence i.e 104 kmph (the other weekend) then good on you and you SHOULD as a NZr not accept this form of B.S.
Especially as the whole weekends campaign and justification for it i.e reduce the road toll on the back of speed kills was nothing but a fail.

With such a cash cow at their disposal and with no real solutions being implented for road toll reduction, I WILL assume that the governments line on reducing the road toll is not real but it is wordplay, while they milk the NZ road users for what they can get !!

This cash cow you talk of, this 104 ticket... is a $30 ticket. How many of these got issued in the weekend? There were 3 at 110kmph in the Naki. Nothing for less......


... if you got ticket you must have deserved it somehow,

There you go... shortened it up for you.:woohoo:

[Patrick]

I wish it were true. There are still too many instances of riders getting fined even when they aren't speeding. Although that situation has improved recently, it is still happening.

Yeah - so they "claim...."

On board cameras would dry that "argument" right up.....

For both sides........

[MSTRS]

On board cameras would dry that "argument" right up.....



In some cases, yes. But only if the camera is close to, and has direct sight of the 'speeding' vehicle, and is following said vehicle.

What about the "I heard your engine and you were speeding. Here's your ticket" scenario?

[Ocean1]

I wish it were true. There are still too many instances of riders getting fined even when they aren't speeding. Although that situation has improved recently, it is still happening.

Aye, and the damage it does is no less than the transformation of rule of law into anarchy.

Think I’m exaggerating? How’s the crimes of violence involving police trend looking?

A few bad apple examples publicised, a simple public statements of regret would damn near cover it. Haven’t seen one, but then I haven’t been looking.

[Quasievil]

This cash cow you talk of, this 104 ticket... is a $30 ticket. How many of these got issued in the weekend? There were 3 at 110kmph in the Naki. Nothing for less......


My comments extended a bit further in relation to the cash cow actually, i.e. the speed cameras.
Meantime over labour weekend the NZ motorist spent most of his time watching his speedo not the road due to the pathetic non achievable road safety campaign to make the Police and the government feel better about their non abilitiy to make a difference on NZ goat tracks.

you dont seriously believe the Police and the governments road safety policies have made any difference to the safety levels on our roads do you?

[MSTRS]

you dont seriously believe the Police and the governments road safety policies have made any difference to the safety levels on our roads do you?

Officially that's exactly what the belief is. And the minions do what they are told, including spouting the same flawed garbage. Exposing this bullshit isn't enough to stop it though. I don't know what is...

[Edbear]

Down here we video intersections for stop sign runners and red light runners, on hand held cameras. The speed is also looked at, but the videos are keeping the crew rather busy........

Yeah, we get out and about a lot, but the behaviours are markedly improved when there is a cop car in the
:

Red light runners are a curse! I saw one particularly brazen example the other day. Two red lights run at high speed by an SUV, unfortunately I couldn't get his number. :angry:

It's amazing the difference a visible cop car makes to the driving standards! I usually wind up passing cop cars as they cruise below the speed limit generally. If I'm doing 105 on the speedo, I don't slow down and follow, and I've never been given more than a glance as I cruise by.

[Ocean1]

Exposing this bullshit isn't enough to stop it though. I don't know what is...

The rank and file aren’t necessarily ideologues, bear in mind they get support for their behaviour, they hear stories in the canteen reinforcing the righteousness of their role. Likewise, the press have a similar effect with the negative stories they run, (seriously) because they’re so poorly researched and presented they’re laughable. I’d be surprised if the local cops did have a balanced understanding of the public feelings about any given policy.

To stop it? Simple, make it cost more than it earns.

[MSTRS]

To stop it? Simple, make it cost more than it earns.

Nup. Their tame ACA's will simply point out the imbalance of revenue, and TPTB in the beehive will reset the rate of fines.

[Patrick]

In some cases, yes. But only if the camera is close to, and has direct sight of the 'speeding' vehicle, and is following said vehicle.

What about the "I heard your engine and you were speeding. Here's your ticket" scenario?

Never been there, never done that... never seen that....


Aye, and the damage it does is no less than the transformation of rule of law into anarchy.

Think I’m exaggerating? How’s the crimes of violence involving police trend looking?

A few bad apple examples publicised, a simple public statements of regret would damn near cover it. Haven’t seen one, but then I haven’t been looking.

Nope - you haven't...... So you've missed them, then...


My comments extended a bit further in relation to the cash cow actually, i.e. the speed cameras.
Meantime over labour weekend the NZ motorist spent most of his time watching his speedo not the road due to the pathetic non achievable road safety campaign to make the Police and the government feel better about their non abilitiy to make a difference on NZ goat tracks.

you dont seriously believe the Police and the governments road safety policies have made any difference to the safety levels on our roads do you?

Hard to say - but it isn't a one fix thing. There are many reasons why the toll drops, but as long as it drops, no one can say what one thing is the cause. It is usually a combination. Better car manufacturing/lower speeds? Or is it road repairs and better suspension? Good tyres on shitty cars? All of the above? Some of the above? Who knows.

[Ocean1]

Nope - you haven't...... So you've missed them, then...

Care to reference the missing bulletins?

[Brian d marge]

Yea I don't disagree with this, but people are often bagging individual police officers who are just doing their job, they don't make the laws they enforce them. So if people have complaints about the police pinging them for something they disagree with it's not that individual police officers fault, he is following orders/laws that he is goverened by and swore the oath to enforce/protect.

Obviously there are times when the individual officer could have made a different/better judgment call when using his discretion, but in general they just enforcing what the bosses up top tell them too.

And its how its is enforced , if you were doing 120 on an open stretch of road on a well maintained bike , with all the other relevant taxes paid up ( and prayed up)

It should be something like a warning , ,,,, education is the key ...

SOMETIMES this happens ,,,,but unfortunately , the reverse is all to true , follow them rules and lies .

I pity the poor sod on the coal face , but at least have the balls to tell your superiors , to take a running jump when the said Laws are clear revenue gathering ,

I support effective policing , I don't support the current regime

Stephen

[Patrick]

Care to reference the missing bulletins?

Wouldn't know how too... too computor illiterate.... but I've seen the odd boss or three front up on TV, saying "This persons actions let us all down." The cop who was getting sexual favours from the hooker - and was convicted recently; the lying cop who fitted up the 16 year old crash kid recently - and was convicted recently, just two examples that spring to mind....

[MSTRS]

...the lying cop who fitted up the 16 year old crash kid recently - and was convicted recently....

Yeah. It only took 4 years. And a lot of effort from non-Police experts, for something that should have been self-evident to SCU.
The wheels of justice turn (even) slow(er) for some...

[Patrick]

Yeah. It only took 4 years. And a lot of effort from non-Police experts, for something that should have been self-evident to SCU.
The wheels of justice turn (even) slow(er) for some...

It was a simpe crash - supposedly - so I doubt the SCU would have been involved at all.... initially.....

[miloking]

Yeah. It only took 4 years. And a lot of effort from non-Police experts, for something that should have been self-evident to SCU.
The wheels of justice turn (even) slow(er) for some...

Hmm this kinda makes me wonder how that investigation of Mr.Brown's "u-turn" accident is going...been like what 7-8 months. i guess 3 years to go now...

[MSTRS]

It was a simpe crash - supposedly - so I doubt the SCU would have been involved at all.... initially.....

Whatever. But any idiot could figure out who was where and doing what, as evidenced by the angle/point of impact.

[Patrick]

Whatever. But any idiot could figure out who was where and doing what, as evidenced by the angle/point of impact.

Dunno - wasn't there. Were you..?

Who knows what the scene looked like.... only those that were there would be able to determine something, even wrongly... but my sympathies to the kid.

[Ocean1]

... but my sympathies to the kid.

If you've never been on the other end of it then you have my best regards, dude. But you ARE aware, aren't you, that a lot of people have had similar experiences, eh?

[MSTRS]

Dunno - wasn't there. Were you..?



No, I wasn't. News reports and video at the time showed the scene for what it was. The cop was lying. No vehicle could be T-boned how and where it was, if it was doing what he said he was. The question of culpability existed from the moment the cop gave his version, which didn't fit. But the noble, unbiased and thoroughly trustworthy :sick: member of the force got his way. For a long time.

[Kickaha]

But you ARE aware, aren't you, that a lot of people have had similar experiences, eh?


What do you class as a lot?

Can't say I know anyone in real life that has, but there's always a mates aunties cousins uncles brother that knew a guy down at the pub who has

[Ocean1]

What do you class as a lot?

Can't say I know anyone in real life that has, but there's always a mates aunties cousins uncles brother that knew a guy down at the pub who has

Defined as "convicted on falsified evidence": I'm acquainted with more than I can count without taking my shoes off. And I don't associate with too many outright hooligans.

I've had two speeding convictions that were bogus, one was a simple mistake they couldn't be arsed checking, one was a complete fabrication.

It adds up, y'know?