Police saving our lives again

[Bald Eagle]

I see the Police are going to claim credit and revenue for saving our lives again this coming long weekend. Or blame speed if it doesn't work.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4247610/Police-target-Labour-Weekend-speeders

[Swoop]

Hopefully people towing trailers (and holding up a line of traffic) will not be targetted.

It's all about speed you know. (Tui time)

[dogsnbikes]

And it had nothing to do with the shite weather at Queens birthday weekend and there were alot more people staying home.... our traffric volume was less than Half of previous years on the ferry

[bogan]

Last Labour Weekend there were 8 deaths, 28 serious injuries and 104 minor injuries. The most common crash causes were losing control (34 percent), alcohol (25 percent), inattention (20 percent), and travelling too fast for conditions (14 percent).

hmmm, only 14% were travelling too fast for the conditions, yeh, lets target that :facepalm:

[MSTRS]

That 'Losing Control' one is interesting, shall we say. Every single crash I've ever heard of involved losing control. I mean, if you didn't lose control, you wouldn't have crashed in the first place. The other types are just variations of losing control, surely.
Ergo - losing control should be targetted by DECENT FECKING TRAINING!!!

[duckonin]

That 'Losing Control' one is interesting, shall we say. Every single crash I've ever heard of involved losing control. I mean, if you didn't lose control, you wouldn't have crashed in the first place. The other types are just variations of losing control, surely.
Ergo - losing control should be targetted by DECENT FECKING TRAINING!!!

MSTRS, DECENT FECKING TRAINING equates to going even faster because they can with all that new found knowledge causing more kaos just losing control at a faster speed::innocent:

[Toaster]

That 'Losing Control' one is interesting, shall we say. Every single crash I've ever heard of involved losing control. I mean, if you didn't lose control, you wouldn't have crashed in the first place. The other types are just variations of losing control, surely.
Ergo - losing control should be targetted by DECENT FECKING TRAINING!!!

Agreed. Better training and tougher testing is required. Crap drivers and riders certainly do not help the problem.

Better roads help too, but we cant afford those with the ridiculous cost of roading in NZ - ripped off by the corporates yet again. A painted line on a road is no safety barrier. Potholes and rubbish repair-jobs like road snakes dont help either.

[Toaster]

I see the Police are going to claim credit and revenue for saving our lives again this coming long weekend. Or blame speed if it doesn't work.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4247610/Police-target-Labour-Weekend-speeders

It would be good to see more targetting of speeding trucks that beast other road users and fail to follow any kind of safe following distance.

Others would be:
Following distances = the lack of.

Distracted drivers (phone, ipod, makeup, eating, reading (it happens!).

SLOW drivers failing to pull over when they have the opportunity.

Aggressive bus drivers that think they always have right of way.

Failing to indicate/cutting off other vehicles when changing lanes.

Vehicles sitting in the right lane and travelling under the speed limit.

Come on NZ Police - do all aspects of your job.

p.s. dont forget to park down the road from pubs... it was like shooting ducks. Drunk drivers have NO place on the roads.

USE MUFTI CARS to catch all of the above.... especially not holdens....

Use mufti motorcycles. Hayabusas make good chase bikes.

[Swoop]

... should be targetted by DECENT FECKING TRAINING!!!
Enough of your crazy ideas!! The gubbinment knows better.:facepalm:

Vehicles sitting in the right lane and travelling under the speed limit.
That would be "failure to keep left" and should be at ANY speed.



I had an interesting chat with a German fellow who sat his licence some years ago.
A minimum of 15 lessons from an instructor.
Specific areas of training (motorway, city, open road, parking, etc, etc).
NO family member allowed to train another.
The equivalent of 4 MONTHS pay to obtain the licence (reason to NOT do anything silly and lose it!).

Food for thought Mr Politician.

[MSTRS]

When pollies are involved, it is well to remember...
Be careful what you wish for.

[doc]

Thin end of the wedge I think.

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/8157369/crackdown-on-speed-over-labour-weekend/

Oops already a thread on this

[SVboy]

Note to self; Dust off Motard, leave gsxr in shed!

[tri boy]

Yay, more fucking coppers in ya face.
The cowards can't do police work, so become gutless lil tax collectors.
Give them side arms, so that at least a few will shoot themselves.

[pritch]

Yay, more fucking coppers in ya face.
The cowards can't do police work, so become gutless lil tax collectors.
Give them side arms, so that at least a few will shoot themselves.

Did you get out of bed the wrong side this morning or what? :devil2:

Think I'll stay home this weekend...

[Latte]

I've been preparing for the long weekend, my Rego and Wof have lapsed, my tires are showing threads and I've been practising my 3rd gear , over a crest , round a blind corner, stand up wheelies........

All at 104kph, so I'm safe.

[Scuba_Steve]

If you need any new gear this weekends the time to get it, people will be on holiday & the P.I.G.s aint gonna stop you, theres money to be made... so as long as you can keep it under 54/104km/h theres plenty of new gear to be had.

Firstly DON'T!, Secondly feel free to burn/spray/destroy those cams, Molotov those P.I.G. cars its time for a public uprising against this scam that costs us money, increases our accidents, kills our people & destroys our country.

Yea I know this will never happen NZ is to scared of "power" to even try but its nice to wish...

[steve_t]

Nah, what we want is the weather to be mint so there's heaps of cars out and a whole heap of people to crash (gently) so they can't claim AGAIN that their speed policy was the reason there were so few crashes.

[Kickaha]

Firstly DON'T!, Secondly feel free to burn/spray/destroy those cams, Molotov those P.I.G. cars its time for a public uprising against this scam that costs us money, increases our accidents, kills our people & destroys our country.

Yea I know this will never happen NZ is to scared of "power" to even try but its nice to wish...


Lets see you start setting the example then?

No I hear you say.

Would you like a saucer of milk you pussy?

[scumdog]

I don't give a fuck - I'll be one of those cruisin' the highways in my hot rod truck with the idiocy of other road users to amuse me!:devil2:

SOme people worry about shit that probably won't happen

[Scuba_Steve]

Lets see you start setting the example then?

No I hear you say.

Would you like a saucer of milk you pussy?

I already occasionally park up behind camera vans when I have spare time to waste (they don't like that so much, get a bit shitty they do) I have plans to go further...

And yes I would like a saucer of milk, cheers.

[Kickaha]

I already occasionally park up behind camera vans when I have spare time to waste


Omigod:shit: what a rebel

[Maha]

Not too worried, I am going where they can find me.

[yod]

might go for a wee pootle round the island then....

toot toot

[dogsnbikes]

might go for a wee pootle round the island then....

toot toot

wadda ya mean....? those new leathers feeling abit tight huh?

[HenryDorsetCase]

I already occasionally park up behind camera vans when I have spare time to waste (they don't like that so much, get a bit shitty they do) I have plans to go further...

And yes I would like a saucer of milk, cheers.

the one I like the best, because it is so subversive is to nick the plate off the camera van, then go earn it a few speeding tickets. The cameras are quite high res, so wear your Ronald Reagan facemask, or Ninja scarf.

post pix when you're done.

[aprilia_RS250]

I'm taking off! The weekend looks like it'll be a stunner! I'll be doing the loop.

The cops are just trying to get to ya!

[Scuba_Steve]

the one I like the best, because it is so subversive is to nick the plate off the camera van, then go earn it a few speeding tickets. The cameras are quite high res, so wear your Ronald Reagan facemask, or Ninja scarf.

post pix when you're done.

:laugh: I like it, might have to find me a red mitzi van & a judith "crusher" collins mask. After all if ya gonna do it, do it right!

[Fatt Max]

Dont bother me really, I can only get 80km/hr out of my bike cos of the weight the poor thing has to carry

[tri boy]

Did you get out of bed the wrong side this morning or what? :devil2:

Think I'll stay home this weekend...

Yeah, sorta.
Got more snot up my nose, than coppas at a doughnut shop.
But I have lost alot of respect for the rozza's over the last ten years. (yeah yeah scummy, I know you will be heat broken), but the amount of bullshit they preach, and corruption that is shown, not to mention the deaths they are causing to road users, blah blah..............

[dilligaf_nz]

And it had nothing to do with the shite weather at Queens birthday weekend and there were alot more people staying home.
Agreed.

You can make numbers to support any damn argument you want when you take them out of context.

[Scuba_Steve]

That 'Losing Control' one is interesting, shall we say. Every single crash I've ever heard of involved losing control. I mean, if you didn't lose control, you wouldn't have crashed in the first place. The other types are just variations of losing control, surely.
Ergo - losing control should be targetted by DECENT FECKING TRAINING!!!

"losing control" is the scape goat like "speed" when they can't claim "speed" & other factors weren't present, So as any moron can work out more crashes happen under speed limit than over it, ergo its safer to "speed"... So there we have it "speeding" saves lives!

[trailblazer]

i will be out for a nice long ride over the weekend. It don't bother me if they drop the tolerance on speeding cause if you aint speeding you won't get caught. Having said that im bound to get my first speeding ticket on my bike this weekend. Doh

[AllanB]

Meh. What's the bloody issue - you lot bleating about the police ticketing people who speed?

I may be missing something but is that not part of their job description?

I'll be riding, if I get caught over the limit I'll be nothing but polite.

[Toaster]

NO problem with police doing their job as long as it is done within the law they themselves are sworn to uphold and within their own code of conduct.

I would LOVE to see regular media time on clamping down on burglars, thieves and drug dealers. The govt want a war on P... so where is the army fighting it?

Half of them are sitting out on straight sections of highways meeting "performance targets".

[HenryDorsetCase]

Meh. What's the bloody issue - you lot bleating about the police ticketing people who speed?

I may be missing something but is that not part of their job description?

I'll be riding, if I get caught over the limit I'll be nothing but polite.

yup, concur.

I did 160kph on the old girl last weekend (in perfect safety mind you)

time and place people, time and place

[trailblazer]

Meh. What's the bloody issue - you lot bleating about the police ticketing people who speed?

I may be missing something but is that not part of their job description?

I'll be riding, if I get caught over the limit I'll be nothing but polite.

thats the right attidude. Why get pissed at the cop if you are the one breaking the law. No wonder you get cunty cops as they have probably just had sum wanker bitching and abusing them for getting caught breaking the law.

[HenryDorsetCase]

NO problem with police doing their job as long as it is done within the law they themselves are sworn to uphold and within their own code of conduct.

I would LOVE to see regular media time on clamping down on burglars, thieves and drug dealers. The govt want a war on P... so where is the army fighting it?

Half of them are sitting out on straight sections of highways meeting "performance targets".

sure, but that is an issue you raise with your local politician, or J Kizzle or "thank jeeble I bought a widescreen TV" Gerry Brownlee.

ranting at the grunts on the coal face is pointless, unless and until they do something they shouldnt (Mr Bridgman, say)

You may as well have argued the wisdom of the D Day landings with one of the poor bastards on one of them little boars, and not the high command. Or talk about counterinsurgency with a grunt in Fallujah, instead of with Petraeus and Obama. See where I'm going with this?

[myvice]

But it’s all in the name of safety!
If we don’t speed, even a little bit, we will never get hurt!
It’s true, I saw it on TV…
At 100kph you’re as safe as if you where in bed, but at 105…
Well, no chance at all really.
When that little truck towing that boat turns in front of you this sunny weekend with only 2 seconds to react before you hit it, you can relax knowing that you’ll be fine as you weren’t going over the limit.
That’s how it works.

[Scuba_Steve]

NO problem with police doing their job as long as it is done within the law they themselves are sworn to uphold and within their own code of conduct.

I would LOVE to see regular media time on clamping down on burglars, thieves and drug dealers. The govt want a war on P... so where is the army fighting it?

Half of them are sitting out on straight sections of highways meeting "performance targets".

& therein also lies the problem, the whole process of issuing tickets is Illegal aint no 2 ways about it they break NZ law every-time 1 is issued & judges break the law every-time they side wif da cops without reason

[Kickaha]

& therein also lies the problem, the whole process of issuing tickets is Illegal aint no 2 ways about it they break NZ law every-time 1 is issued & judges break the law every-time they side wif da cops without reason

Your full time job is stand up comedy isn't it?:facepalm:

[Shadowjack]

At 100kph you’re as safe as if you where in bed, but at 105…
At the moment, not where some of us live, not necessarily...

[scumdog]

Your full time job is stand up comedy isn't it?:facepalm:

Ya think?:D

[Scuba_Steve]

Your full time job is stand up comedy isn't it?:facepalm:

Nope

Everyone who is charged with an offence has, in relation to the determination of the charge, the following minimum rights:
(a) The right to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial court:
(c) The right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law: (this is beyond reasonable doubt)
(e) The right to be present at the trial and to present a de­fence:


That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegall and void.

[scumdog]

Nope

Everyone who is charged with an offence has, in relation to the determination of the charge, the following minimum rights:
(a) The right to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial court:
(c) The right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law: (this is beyond reasonable doubt)
(e) The right to be present at the trial and to present a de­fence:


That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegall and void.

YOU worry too much!:blink::bleh::killingme:lol:

[HenryDorsetCase]

Nope

Everyone who is charged with an offence has, in relation to the determination of the charge, the following minimum rights:
(a) The right to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial court:
(c) The right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law: (this is beyond reasonable doubt)
(e) The right to be present at the trial and to present a de­fence:


That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegall and void.

illegal has three l's not four.

(with Hitcher crook, someone has to point this shit out, right?)

How does receiving an infringement notice from a lor enforcement offisher contravene, abrogate or diminish those rights?

(hint: you need to read the back of it)

[Scuba_Steve]

illegal has three l's not four.

(with Hitcher crook, someone has to point this shit out, right?)

How does receiving an infringement notice from a lor enforcement offisher contravene, abrogate or diminish those rights?

(hint: you need to read the back of it)

Not originally that be ye olde english right there.
And it clearly says Innocent until proven guilty, thats pretty self explanatory is it not?. By doing what is on back they have presumed you guilty & it's you proving your innocence NOT how the law is written!

That last one quite clearly states ANY fine handed out before you have been found guilty (in a court of law) is Illegal & Void. Cant get much more obvious than that, right?

[cold comfort]

Looking forward to it- i fully expect as a result of this no one will cross the centre line, run off the road, go through red lights, fail to give way, pull u-turns in the Buller Gorge. Should be a quiet day at work then.

[MaxB]

So AFAIK the demerits are the same for 110 are the same for 104, just the fine is more.
Plus for only 10 extra points you get another 10 kmh on top. Bargain.

It looks like the criuising speed has gone up a bit.

[myvice]

And this is why I work weekends...
And nights...
Fuck I'm tired, only 9 hours to go...
Just be carful out there, to hell with the tickets, the cops and the stupid laws we have to pay lip service to.
Every long weekend we lose one of our own.
How about, now try and stay with me on this caus it’s a bit out there,
find another fucking road!
Why do so many go, to the same roads, at the same time, as everyone else?
You like getting ticketed? Or hit by some caravan towing guy?
I do the Coro ride maybe 2 times a year, during the week.
No cars, one cop, maybe.
But a long weekend? Na, madness…
Heres a tip, Waipapa Rd through to Maraetai Dam.
Takes you from Cambridge to Taupo. You can then do the lake if you want.
Or Kawhia, Kawhia Rd SH31? Nice ride, you can turn off (Harbour Rd, on left heading there) and take the back road to Waitomo if you’re keen.
Two, one day rides that many have never been on.
If you do the same route every weekend, just go to a track.
Be boring there.

[Quasievil]

You dont need the government to mandate decent training, do it yourself

all the government needs to do is get some serious penalties aligned with road "crime"

thats all..............everything else (including training) will follow

[doc]

Opposite weather to last time they got a good result from lowering the speed tolerance. Interesting to see the statistics next tuesday. Just got to wait and see


http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8161029/labour-weekend-sunny-dry-and-calm/

[Swoop]

Give them side arms, so that at least a few will shoot themselves.
You don't know how close to the truth that statement is...


Who was the officer that fired a live round in the AK Central police cells (while playing with his pistol) some years back??

[Toaster]

& therein also lies the problem, the whole process of issuing tickets is Illegal aint no 2 ways about it they break NZ law every-time 1 is issued & judges break the law every-time they side wif da cops without reason

Oh really now. And how do you figure that one? Breaching your self proclaimed rights to do whatever you want on roads that are not actually yours are they?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Not originally that be ye olde english right there.
And it clearly says Innocent until proven guilty, thats pretty self explanatory is it not?. By doing what is on back they have presumed you guilty & it's you proving your innocence NOT how the law is written!

That last one quite clearly states ANY fine handed out before you have been found guilty (in a court of law) is Illegal & Void. Cant get much more obvious than that, right?

You're wrong.

Please, please get a ticket and fight it on this basis. Let me know when and where so I can go sit in the public gallery.

[imdying]

Not originally that be ye olde english right there.
And it clearly says Innocent until proven guilty, thats pretty self explanatory is it not?. By doing what is on back they have presumed you guilty & it's you proving your innocence NOT how the law is written!

That last one quite clearly states ANY fine handed out before you have been found guilty (in a court of law) is Illegal & Void. Cant get much more obvious than that, right?Civil not criminal I'm afraid.

[duckonin]

You dont need the government to mandate decent training, do it yourself

all the government needs to do is get some serious penalties aligned with road "crime"

thats all..............everything else (including training) will follow

:yes:Someone has got it right..+5

[Scuba_Steve]

You're wrong.

Please, please get a ticket and fight it on this basis. Let me know when and where so I can go sit in the public gallery.

How? it seems pretty clear written out in black on white. But I'm not saying its win-able the systems WAY to corrupt for that. If you walk into court & a PIG's there your "guilty" before anything is said under our system.


Civil not criminal I'm afraid.

Huh??? you've lost me here?

[Rogue Rider]

the one I like the best, because it is so subversive is to nick the plate off the camera van, then go earn it a few speeding tickets. The cameras are quite high res, so wear your Ronald Reagan facemask, or Ninja scarf.

post pix when you're done.

I like that idea, who's up for it lol......

[FJRider]

Not originally that be ye olde english right there.
And it clearly says Innocent until proven guilty, thats pretty self explanatory is it not?. By doing what is on back they have presumed you guilty & it's you proving your innocence NOT how the law is written!

That last one quite clearly states ANY fine handed out before you have been found guilty (in a court of law) is Illegal & Void. Cant get much more obvious than that, right?

If you want ... you CAN argue an issued Traffic Infringement ticket given to you ... in a court of law. Do not pay the fine ...and court proceedings WILL follow. You can then argue your heart out.

However ...

Payment of the fine is an admission of guilt ...

[Rych]

Yay, more fucking coppers in ya face.
The cowards can't do police work, so become gutless lil tax collectors.
Give them side arms, so that at least a few will shoot themselves.
FYI there are traffic cops and there are general duty cops, the trafic cops only do traffic so there is no wrong in them ticketing those who speed causing a danger to drivers following the road rules.

[miloking]

Meh. What's the bloody issue - you lot bleating about the police ticketing people who speed?

I may be missing something but is that not part of their job description?

I'll be riding, if I get caught over the limit I'll be nothing but polite.

ok thats nice....NOW GTFO of here with you softcock attitude

[miloking]

You dont need the government to mandate decent training, do it yourself

all the government needs to do is get some serious penalties aligned with road "crime"

thats all..............everything else (including training) will follow

Sorry but you are joking right? because it has BEEN working so well so far...

[Ronin]

ok thats nice....NOW GTFO of here with you softcock attitude

You know... It's a pity imigration don't have a retroactive crackdown.

[Quasievil]

Sorry but you are joking right? because it has BEEN working so well so far...

No Im not joking, there are no penalties other than a slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket for many road crimes, drinking driving for example, excessive speed as another, or perhaps dangerous driving causing death, none of these penalties are strong enough.

[PrincessBandit]

ok thats nice....NOW GTFO of here with you softcock attitude

What about you shut your moaning trap every now and again.
Sounds to me like you're just pissy at riders who are able to show restraint and self control, unlike yourself. Get the sand out of your panties and give it a rest.

I hope they target your arse.

[scumdog]

You're wrong.

Please, please get a ticket and fight it on this basis. Let me know when and where so I can go sit in the public gallery.


Likewise, I bet I could sell tickets for that event!

Oh my, 'tickets', am I ever funny or WHAT!! :woohoo::lol: OH YEAH, HOO-HAA!!!...

[Scuba_Steve]

Do not pay the fine ...and court proceedings WILL follow. You can then argue your heart out.


Yes what is supposed to happen but what really happens is it goes straight to fine collections again presuming guilt.

[scumdog]

Yes what is supposed to happen but what really happens is it goes straight to fine collections again presuming guilt.

You seemm to know an awful lot about how the law works - are you a cop or something??

[Scuba_Steve]

You seemm to know an awful lot about how the law works - are you a cop or something??

Was gonna be until I found out they're just "protected" scam operators nowadays. The once honored, & respected position as part of the police force is a thing of the past, today we are just left with P.I.G.'s of which I do NOT want to be part of.

Following that I was going to become a lawyer but turns out you need english for that & I only speak/write New Zealand.

[miloking]

What about you shut your moaning trap every now and again.
Sounds to me like you're just pissy at riders who are able to show restraint and self control, unlike yourself. Get the sand out of your panties and give it a rest.

I hope they target your arse.


You see and thats where you are wrong...i dont care about your wonderful riders with self control, but i do get "pissy" when they come here and start telling me that i NEED to be polite to those fucking traffic duty lame excuses for cop who are about to give me ticket for 105km/h...so sorry if i dont take it up my arse like the rest of you on here and fight back a little.

[MaxB]

The cops will generally go to where they get the most customers. So if you're going enjoy your bike, do it off the main highways. Simple as.

[trailblazer]

So do all these people that are moaning and bitching about the cops doing there jobs do use actually work or do you claim a benifet of sum sort. I bet if you have a job the object of that would be to make money right. So how would you like your customers moaning and bitching at you for doing what you get paid for. You wouldn't. And to those on a benefit you probably also moan about free money. With the attitude of some of the wankers in this country im suprised we have a police force at all.

[Katman]

i dont take it up my arse

Don't lie - you're gaggin' for it.

[miloking]

Don't lie.

Well at least not literally...but i do get stoped by police quite often and what ensues after that is not my own fault. Iam just glad when they dont have whisky bottles or batons on them...

[miloking]

So do all these people that are moaning and bitching about the cops doing there jobs do use actually work or do you claim a benifet of sum sort. I bet if you have a job the object of that would be to make money right. So how would you like your customers moaning and bitching at you for doing what you get paid for. You wouldn't. And to those on a benefit you probably also moan about free money. With the attitude of some of the wankers in this country im suprised we have a police force at all.

Ummm... sooo cops are out to make money out of us? And they dont like when we "customers" bitch and moan about it?...well you did pretty much summarised it all with that sentence.

[trailblazer]

no they are there to do a job just like everyone else that goes to work.

[Rych]

Was gonna be until I found out they're just "protected" scam operators nowadays. The once honored, & respected position as part of the police force is a thing of the past, today we are just left with P.I.G.'s of which I do NOT want to be part of.

Following that I was going to become a lawyer but turns out you need english for that & I only speak/write New Zealand.
wow, you must not see what the police have to do / put up with in this country, also the fact NZ Police are the least corrupt force in the world. They put their life on the lines, get shot for people they don't even know. Please don't confuse traffic / front line cops with each other, no one likes getting tickets just don't break the law.

I've had tickets, I pay them and move on. If you believe you are innocent then plead not guilty and move on.

Shesh strange how NZ has such low respect for police where the force is actually very good comparing to other places around the world. Everyone likes having everything their own way, problem with authority.

...and miloking obviously has some sort a grudge haha :D

[MSTRS]

.... If you believe you are innocent then plead not guilty and move on....

This is the bit that people tend to have the problem with.
The presumption of innocence does not apply in traffic matters. The court is not unbiased towards the defendant. All it takes is one cop (like that prick way down south) to level a bogus charge, and lie on the stand, and you're fucked. Plus it could cost you your house/livelihood/freedom to fight such a bogus charge.
Now, we all know that situation is a relative rarity in the scheme of things, but it is more common than you might think. And the system is geared not only to allow it, if not encourage it, but to protect it from exposure.

[Rych]

This is the bit that people tend to have the problem with.
The presumption of innocence does not apply in traffic matters. The court is not unbiased towards the defendant. All it takes is one cop (like that prick way down south) to level a bogus charge, and lie on the stand, and you're fucked. Plus it could cost you your house/livelihood/freedom to fight such a bogus charge.
Now, we all know that situation is a relative rarity in the scheme of things, but it is more common than you might think. And the system is geared not only to allow it, if not encourage it, but to protect it from exposure.
I myself have pleaded not guilty to two traffic infringements and got both wiped, although these were council written ones but same thing both go to court. Cost me nothing just a letter with some backing up evidence, documentation, photo of parking signs etc.

People throw around the statement "just takes a cop to lie in court", but don't realize that's a massive step to take, huge consequences, loss of job / jail time, and more so for a police officer as they are sworn. If you believe you are innocent of an infringement ring the 0800 or write in a letter pleading your case, the payment date will only get extended so use that time to save some $$$, don't just throw up a stink be a cop hater and pay the fine.

Just concerns me that people loose respect for police because of traffic cops, as I said before there is traffic and there is front line. There's the ones who locks up the wife beaters child molesters rapists etc, then there's the ticket writers, not all in the same basket.

Looks like they may be separating the two again which could be good.

[MSTRS]

Looks like they may be separating the two again which could be good.

There is talk of it. But how will we know? All new cars are decalled yellow/blue (was traffic only before). That is to keep people guessing. And once the mind games start...

The thing about GD and Traffic is that GD do both (or can), Traffic only do traffic

[duckonin]

"just takes a cop to lie in court", but don't realize that's a massive step to take, huge consequences, loss of job / jail time..



Plenty of them do just that, not all mind!! unless it suits their purpose, one word in a paragraph can change the whole context of a situation into something entirely different, it can then be fact or fiction ..'Truth or lie':yes:

Consequences you have listed huh what a joke :facepalm:..even SD would laugh at that..

[Scuba_Steve]

wow, you must not see what the police have to do / put up with in this country, also the fact NZ Police are the least corrupt force in the world. They put their life on the lines, get shot for people they don't even know. Please don't confuse traffic / front line cops with each other, no one likes getting tickets just don't break the law.

I've had tickets, I pay them and move on. If you believe you are innocent then plead not guilty and move on.

Shesh strange how NZ has such low respect for police where the force is actually very good comparing to other places around the world. Everyone likes having everything their own way, problem with authority.

...and miloking obviously has some sort a grudge haha :D

NZ is one of the least corrupt countries in the world but leading our corruption list, yep you guessed it the NZ police beating even politicians & judges/lawyers (which do follow closely behind).

Also I do know what they do (I am talking "front line" P.I.G.s during these discussions) Like I said I was planning to join them 'till I found out what they actually did.
& pleading not guilty & moving on is easy to say NOT so easy to do like I said if a P.I.G. shows up-to a court case you are automatically guilty before a word is said under our current system

[Swoop]

You dont need the government to mandate decent training, do it yourself
It would be nice to know that ALL road users are trained to a decent nationwide standard, not just those who choose to get further training.
Being taken out by some under-skilled "scratch-and-winner" is still possible.:facepalm:

[Edbear]

Enough of your crazy ideas!! The gubbinment knows better.:facepalm:

That would be "failure to keep left" and should be at ANY speed.

I had an interesting chat with a German fellow who sat his licence some years ago.
A minimum of 15 lessons from an instructor.
Specific areas of training (motorway, city, open road, parking, etc, etc).
NO family member allowed to train another.
The equivalent of 4 MONTHS pay to obtain the licence (reason to NOT do anything silly and lose it!).

Food for thought Mr Politician.

And if you do lose it, it is VERY difficult and VERY expensive to get it back!


i will be out for a nice long ride over the weekend. It don't bother me if they drop the tolerance on speeding cause if you aint speeding you won't get caught. Having said that im bound to get my first speeding ticket on my bike this weekend. Doh

Hope you don't. I agree with your post.


Meh. What's the bloody issue - you lot bleating about the police ticketing people who speed?

I may be missing something but is that not part of their job description?

I'll be riding, if I get caught over the limit I'll be nothing but polite.

It's funny how many get upset about being caught speeding. The law is there, everyone knows it, most drivers/riders are not nearly as capable as they like to think they are and you can't have two speed limits. Anyone with half a brain cell should understand the situation and be mindful that the road is not exclusively theirs and everyone has the same rights and responsibilities.

If you exceed the speed limit you may get a ticket, really, really simple to understand and deal with.

[slofox]

NZ Police are the least corrupt force in the world.

Mr A.A.Thomas might not agree with you there...

[Bald Eagle]

Mr A.A.Thomas might not agree with you there...

state funded holiday accomodation followed by state funded farm and light plane with money in the bank, seems like corruption worked pretty good for him .

[MSTRS]

Talking of corruption, as it pertains to the cops...and the Thomas case, amongst others, before, since and ongoing...
It would seem that the corruption lies in one or two individuals, not the whole lot. Of course, the more cynical amongst us would simply say that those cops are selected to take the fall, when enough of the facts get out. Louise Nicholls had to have been damned inconvenient when she wouldn't accept a single cop as sacrifice. Still, we know how that one panned out...

[red mermaid]

Amazed that someone not in the Police can know day by day what each and every police officer does while at work.

As so often is the case I can assure you that you are completely wrong.



There is talk of it. But how will we know? All new cars are decalled yellow/blue (was traffic only before). That is to keep people guessing. And once the mind games start...

The thing about GD and Traffic is that GD do both (or can), Traffic only do traffic

[MSTRS]

As so often is the case I can assure you that you are completely wrong.

Not according to the cops here that I know personally.

And typical of you to cherry-pick one thing I have said, and to criticise it. Evidence that cops do not employ the balance scales of justice :bleh:

[Swoop]

As so often is the case I can assure you that you are completely wrong.
Correct. They do traffic AND donuts!!:woohoo:

[Scuba_Steve]

Not according to the cops here that I know personally.

Neither according to the 4 mates which actually joint the force, 1 in PN 2 in Welly region & 1 up Tauranga.

[Bald Eagle]

Neither according to the 4 mates which actually joint the force, 1 in PN 2 in Welly region & 1 up Tauranga.

You got some dodgy mates there ss :innocent:

[Scuba_Steve]

You got some dodgy mates there ss :innocent:

yea tell me about it... cops, bikers, Welsh. I guess I just attract the dodgy ones.

[red mermaid]

Oh, thats a tough call on credibility there.

A couple of blokes who say they have some mates who they say told them something, or someone who does the job day in day out, is hearing all the calls on the radio, who is going to them, and is doing it himself.


Not according to the cops here that I know personally.

And typical of you to cherry-pick one thing I have said, and to criticise it. Evidence that cops do not employ the balance scales of justice :bleh:


Neither according to the 4 mates which actually joint the force, 1 in PN 2 in Welly region & 1 up Tauranga.

[MSTRS]

Well, there is definitely ONE around here who is a bit short in the credibility department...

[imdying]

Huh??? you've lost me here?What you're talking about doesn't apply in civil matters, only criminal ones.

[Scuba_Steve]

What you're talking about doesn't apply in civil matters, only criminal ones.

It does not get recorded on your criminal record, but a speeding fine is considered a "criminal offense".
You will find if you lose a court hearing (whether it true or not) it is specifically noted "case proven beyond reasonable doubt"

[scumdog]

It does not get recorded on your criminal record, but a speeding fine is considered a "criminal offense".

Really?

So where can I look up this information?

[scumdog]

And typical of you to cherry-pick one thing I have said, and to criticise it. :bleh:

I guess he learned that technique from seeing it used by so many KB ranters eh...<_<

[scumdog]

The cops will generally go to where they get the most whinging losers:woohoo:. So if you're going enjoy your bike, do it off the main highways. Simple as.

Fixed.:yes:

ANd the last sentence makes sense.

[MSTRS]

I guess he learned that technique from seeing it used by so many KB ranters eh...<_<

Actually, I think it's a prerequisite of Manawatu cops. There was another one on here some time ago, who had the same arrogant, god-like in his own mind, manner as well.

[LBD]

14% Too fast for the conditions... my favorite peeve....Too fast for the conditions is not speeding. Loose it on ice in the winter at 75kph on the open road and you were travelling tooo fast for the conditions....

[scumdog]

Following that I was going to become a lawyer but turns out you need english for that & I only speak/write New Zealand.

But..but think of all the innocent bikers you could have helped.....how selfish...

[Scuba_Steve]

Really?

So where can I look up this information?

OK So this seems to be a grey area in law a dark grey area, but they do (like I said) make a point of pointing out it "complies" with section 25(c) Bill of rights 1990.

But if then this is a civil offense the general public would also have the ability to charge the police/govt etc with the same, would they not? under section 27(3)

Every person has the right to bring civil proceedings against, and to defend civil proceedings brought by, the Crown, and to have those proceedings heard, according to law, in the same way as civil proceedings between individuals.

[imdying]

It does not get recorded on your criminal record, but a speeding fine is considered a "criminal offense".
You will find if you lose a court hearing (whether it true or not) it is specifically noted "case proven beyond reasonable doubt"Interesting habit mate.

[Swoop]

Amazing.
The AA said something sensible (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/video/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501138&objectid=10682248) for once.

Automobile Association spokesman Mike Noon called on the police to use their discretion "and truly focus on dangerous driving" rather than fine drivers for exceeding the 4km/h allowance by small margins on good roads.

Very rare for them to get away from the "speed kills" propaganda bullshit.:blink::gob:

[scumdog]

Amazing.
The AA said something sensible (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/video/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501138&objectid=10682248) for once.

Automobile Association spokesman Mike Noon called on the police to use their discretion "and truly focus on dangerous driving" rather than fine drivers for exceeding the 4km/h allowance by small margins on good roads.

Very rare for them to get away from the "speed kills" propaganda bullshit.:blink::gob:

I'm privy to a lot of similar info, stuff that indicates not a total focus on speed, targetting those that thoughtlessly cross the centre-line etc.

But I wasn't going to say anything as I love laughing at the antics of the KB ranters....:devil2:

[Scuba_Steve]

Amazing.
The AA said something sensible (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/video/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501138&objectid=10682248) for once.

Automobile Association spokesman Mike Noon called on the police to use their discretion "and truly focus on dangerous driving" rather than fine drivers for exceeding the 4km/h allowance by small margins on good roads.

Very rare for them to get away from the "speed kills" propaganda bullshit.:blink::gob:

Yep I've always thought we need to drop the "Speeding" fines & have only the "dangerous driving" charge, this way regardless of speed if you can't drive you get charged & it frees the PIG's up to get back to their jobs as police instead of scam operators for the Govt, leave the scams to the Nigerians!

[scumdog]

it frees the PIG's up to get back to their jobs as police instead of scam operators for the Govt, leave the scams to the Nigerians!

Scams only get results from losers and drongos....

[Scuba_Steve]

Scams only get results from losers and drongos....

Well we know what you think of NZ motorists...

[scumdog]

Well we know what you think of NZ motorists...

Really??:gob:

What DO I think of NZ motorists?:whistle:


And who are 'we'??:wait:

[shrub]

If we see a zero road toll, then the big risk is that Our Noble Constabulary will be forced to have a zero tolerance, or our beloved masters will reduce the open road speed limit. And that means we will logically see the road toll dropping below zero, which means the dead will rise from their graves!!!!!:shutup::facepalm::shit:

[shrub]

What DO I think of NZ motorists?

Do you think?

[scumdog]

Do you think?
Hell no!
It's apparently not needed on KB....

[Rych]

What's the problem with this if it works? Wasn't the last like lowest death toll in 50 years? If lives are saved it's worth it.

[trailblazer]

What's the problem with this if it works? Wasn't the last like lowest death toll in 50 years? If lives are saved it's worth it.

totally agree. If it works then whats the problem.

[Scuba_Steve]

totally agree. If it works then whats the problem.

that is the problem it doesn't work. So admittedly this is from the UK (its hard to pull info from NZ) but here is some abstracts

Figures made available show an impressive 35% decrease in deaths from 1978 to 1988. The spiraling number of deaths continued to decrease during the pre speed camera years until cameras were introduced in the early to mid 1990's. In fact, since the mid 1990's the number of deaths has stayed about the same which is proof, over a 10 year period, that speed cameras do not save lives. If planting 5000 cameras on the streets and issuing over 7 million fines since 1992 really worked then we would have seen the number of road deaths continue to fall, but they've just stayed the same. The question is, why haven't fatalities continued to decrease since cameras were introduced?
The finger of blame is clearly pointing at the cameras and those who support them. If it weren't for advances in vehicle safety design and medical treatment then casualties would have increased considerably since cameras were introduced.
Less than 4% of accidents are caused by exceeding the speed limit according to new data (page 41) published by the Department of Transport. This destroys the government's claim that 1/3 of accidents are speed related.

Between 1980 and 1995 UK road death rates were falling 7.1 per cent a year. But since speed cameras arrived, deaths have fallen just 2.8 per cent annually. Experts say that if the pre-1995 rate had continued 9,674 lives could have been saved.

The UK Department for Transport funded, then suppressed, a study that shows a 55 percent increase in injury accidents when speed cameras are used on highway work zones and a 31 percent increase when used on freeways without construction projects. According to the Transport Research Laboratory, the "non-works [personal injury accident] rate is significantly higher for the sites with speed cameras than the rate for sites without."

[trailblazer]

they have to do something or it could be you or I coming round a bend with a inpatient driver on the wrong side of the road while he tries to pass the old git towing a caravan. I guess you could look at it as the police arnt there to give you a big fine for speeding but there so if they can stop some speeders then they may be able to avoid having to tell some poor family that there husband,son,brother,uncle or friend has been envolved in a tragic accidant and have lost there life. If there is a chance to avoid that don't you think it is worth it.

[Scuba_Steve]

they have to do something or it could be you or I coming round a bend with a inpatient driver on the wrong side of the road while he tries to pass the old git towing a caravan. I guess you could look at it as the police arnt there to give you a big fine for speeding but there so if they can stop some speeders then they may be able to avoid having to tell some poor family that there husband,son,brother,uncle or friend has been envolved in a tragic accidant and have lost there life. If there is a chance to avoid that don't you think it is worth it.

yes they should do something... against the old git towing a caravan, let the people pass.
It was pointed out by the AA if that caravan is going 80km/h & the driver goes to overtake (obeying the speed limit 100km/h) it'll take him 20sec's to do so that is one hell of a long time or about 556m providing all things remain equal and if he does it on the opposite side of road you also have to add 100m clear space ahead to the distance taking the total distance to about 656m, THAT right there is dangerous!

[trailblazer]

I agree with you there and I would also speed up to pass but won't continue to accelerate or drive dangerously when I get passed. Im no saint as I have had my fair share of speeding fines and boy racer fines but I have also lost some good mates to people driving dangerously with speed and inattention so know what being on the recieving end of those horrible visits or phone calls by the police or friends is like and hope to never have my family go through that because I have been taken out by one of those drivers.

[Scuba_Steve]

but "speeding" & dangerous driving are not related, Australia for one shows this...

Up until 2007, rural roads in the Northern Territory, Australia had no speed limit. Claiming that speed limits were essential to saving lives, the state government imposed a 130km/h (80 MPH) limit on the Stuart, Arnhem, Victoria and Barkly highways and a 110km/h (68 MPH) speed limit on all other roads, unless otherwise marked lower. Despite the best of intentions, however, the number of road deaths actually increased 70 percent after the change -- despite worldwide drop in traffic levels

Doing 160km/h down the desert road I would say is perfectly safe, but doing 100km/h round those corners (despite being the limit) to be dangerous same as doing 100km/h down the desert road if covered in snow or ice.
Speed is not the problem peoples inability to drive is, & the slowing of speed has done absolutely NOTHING to help the road toll, increased safety features in vehicles are the ONLY thing bringing our road toll down. And these speed scams distract the cops from doing their jobs & actually saving lives, like those child abuse cases they like to ignore, family violence cases, rape cases, assault, theft or repeat drink drivers all these are MUCH greater uses of police time.

[ukusa]

Heads will have to roll now, maybe they'll drop to no tolerence on the 100 limit.

1 dead already - http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4266041/Road-death-foils-zero-road-toll-aim

"Police had targeted zero fatalities for the weekend, with an increased police presence on the roads"

Looks like they failed, someone should fall on their sword!

The truth is, they could drop the limit back to 80 kph & there will still be road deaths (in fact wearn't road deaths higher in the 70's when the limit was only 50mph)

[Berries]

Heads will have to roll now, maybe they'll drop to no tolerence on the 100 limit.
I don't think they can drop the tolerance any further due to the margin of error on their equipment. It'll be a national 90km/h speed limit first.

[trailblazer]

I think that would be a big backwards step in my opinion. I personally think it will have the opposite affect. my2c

[onearmedbandit]

I don't think they can drop the tolerance any further due to the margin of error on their equipment. It'll be a national 90km/h speed limit first.

Do you know what the tolerance is on the speed guns?

[Berries]

I always thought it was +/- 3km/h. If I got pinged for 141 I would be checking it out that's for certain.

[onearmedbandit]

I always thought it was +/- 3km/h. If I got pinged for 141 I would be checking it out that's for certain.

Doesn't give you much room for error this weekend then does it.

[Brian d marge]

I have just returned from down south ( wakayama near suzuka ) a ten hour straight drive , on the motorway , I sat between 120 and 140 kmph all good

On the way back between 100 and 120 ( at night and tired ) ,,all good

How ever off the motorway and following the coast line the speeds ( for a posted 40 kmph )

were , 25 , 50 and the occasional 70

oh and I am still here , so , speeds are relative

100 kmph is IMHO to fast for quite a number of NZ roads but also this strict speed enforcement is also ,,, revenue gathering

long and short of it it comes down to ,,,,

I dont like being lied to by the idiots who run the place ,,,,,,,,,and why we are going down an increased roading model is beyond me

Stephen

[Kickaha]

100 kmph is IMHO to fast for quite a number of NZ roads but also this strict speed enforcement is also ,,, revenue gathering


Stephen


I think the argument for revenue gathering went out the window when they decreased fines a while back

[Yow Ling]

Things could be worse, I can remember when 80 clicks was the limit.

This weekend Ill make sure I dont exceed 130 or 140 in a 50 k area
Greymouth here we come !

[Kickaha]

Things could be worse, I can remember when 80 clicks was the limit.

You must be pretty old then :lol:

[MSTRS]

The truth is, they could drop the limit back to 80 kph & there will still be road deaths (in fact wearn't road deaths higher in the 70's when the limit was only 50mph)

700 - 800 a year was 'normal'. But the roads weren't as good as we'd like to remember them, the cars were crap and we didn't have cheesecutters to keep us all safe.
I also think the average driver was waaaay better back then, but they were only better enough for the prevailing conditions. All the 'improvements' since have only meant that the average driver has dumbed down to keep pace...
But carry on, cops, keep targetting the wrong shit...at least it keeps some accountant happy.

[trailblazer]

the police and goverment can't just look at speed as a factor there are many differant variables like road condition,traffic flow,tired drivers and driver education. I just got my restricted on wednesday and the whole test was a joke aapart from a quick 3 minute ride in a 100kph zone the test was piss easy. There was nothing to do with skill just riding around making sure you indicated,gave way and stopped. I think the key to reducing the road toll should be centred around driver education and then work with speed etc.

[Owl]

That 'Losing Control' one is interesting, shall we say. Every single crash I've ever heard of involved losing control.

Even if you're stationary and involved in a crash, chances are you'll shit yourself, so yeah, losing control is abundant:laugh:

[ukusa]

700 - 800 a year was 'normal'. But the roads weren't as good as we'd like to remember them, the cars were crap and we didn't have cheesecutters to keep us all safe.
I also think the average driver was waaaay better back then, but they were only better enough for the prevailing conditions. All the 'improvements' since have only meant that the average driver has dumbed down to keep pace...
But carry on, cops, keep targetting the wrong shit...at least it keeps some accountant happy.

I personally never drove on the roads in the 60s or 70s, but I believe the improvements in cars (& bikes to a lesser degree as they don't have airbags/crumple zones etc) would have to be the biggest impact on the lower road toll over the years. I would feel much safer in one of todays modern cars doing 140 than an old HQ doing 90! Again, it's the idiotic things that others do on the road that's the biggest worry (oh, and those annoying pricks that fuck around at 20k's under the limit).

[MSTRS]

I personally never drove on the roads in the 60s or 70s, but I believe the improvements in cars (& bikes to a lesser degree as they don't have airbags/crumple zones etc) would have to be the biggest impact on the lower road toll over the years. I would feel much safer in one of todays modern cars doing 140 than an old HQ doing 90! Again, it's the idiotic things that others do on the road that's the biggest worry (oh, and those annoying pricks that fuck around at 20k's under the limit).

That is exactly my point. You would have taken more care in an HQ on the roads of the day, than you do in your 5star rated modern car on today's roads. Your crash then killed you. Your crash today tends not to kill you...plus ambo/chopper response times and much improved medical care means survival is enhanced on that side too.
Which means that you can drive whilst asleep (some appear to).
Improved everything has just made driving boring, which is not a good place for a driver to be. Making us drive slower will only make that worse. Ergo - no drop in the road toll will result. In fact, the crash rate is likely to go up...although deaths may not.

[bsasuper]

4k over tolerence will have more of a negative effect.I have just seen a mother pulled over outside a cafe I was having a break at, nice lady with a couple of kids in the van,she spat the dummy at cop, ticket for 4k over on a 70k limit country road with maybe one car every 10mins passing by.He must be happy to have saved an accident.

[steve_t]

4k over tolerence will have more of a negative effect.I have just seen a mother pulled over outside a cafe I was having a break at, nice lady with a couple of kids in the van,she spat the dummy at cop, ticket for 4k over on a 70k limit country road with maybe one car every 10mins passing by.He must be happy to have saved an accident.

Interesting. IIRC, after the last 4k tolerance weekend, the cops were proud to announce not only that accidents were dramatically reduced, but also that they didn't ticket a single person between 105-109 km/h. How do you know the ticket was for 74km/h in a 70 zone?

[Kickaha]

Again, it's the idiotic things that others do on the road that's the biggest worry

Yeah, it's always someone Else's fault :innocent:

[jellywrestler]

Dont bother me really, I can only get 80km/hr out of my bike cos of the weight the poor thing has to carry
what model harley is that then?

[bsasuper]

Interesting. IIRC, after the last 4k tolerance weekend, the cops were proud to announce not only that accidents were dramatically reduced, but also that they didn't ticket a single person between 105-109 km/h. How do you know the ticket was for 74km/h in a 70 zone?

Maybe it was 4k over the 4k tolerence, either way she gave the popo a few stern words infront of half dozen cafe patrons.

[shrub]

and we're not at the end of Saturday yet - it will be interesting what spin they'll use if the road toll is greater than last year (6) or 2008 (4).

[miloking]

I think the argument for revenue gathering went out the window when they decreased fines a while back

Decreased? ohhh how generous...if you want public to stop saying cops are just money collectors get rid of the fines completely and have only demerit points, very easy.

[miloking]

and we're not at the end of Saturday yet - it will be interesting what spin they'll use if the road toll is greater than last year (6) or 2008 (4).


They will blame it on either alcohol, crossing centre line or expired rego...so neither of those deaths will probably count as road toll...

[carver]

yeah, fuck the cops

I hate cops

if there are any on here, i suggest we ban them now..

who is with me?

[oldrider]

yeah, fuck the cops

I hate cops

if there are any on here, i suggest we ban them now..

who is with me?

Whoever is using Carvers computer please get off it and wait until he comes home and get his permission before posting again! :wait:

[Kickaha]

Decreased? ohhh how generous...if you want public to stop saying cops are just money collectors get rid of the fines completely and have only demerit points, very easy.

How many countries operate that system?

[willytheekid]

Sat arvo...PhatGirls all warmed up and ready for the plod into work, Beep Beep and a wave to the Missus the Kid...and the dog.
Taking it easy up the road and onto the highway....Not much traffic?...Hmmmm
Open her up a little, Mmmmmm PhatGirls singing today, the big Vtwin wants to go...should I ?...its a long weekend.....Bugger it!...the FCRs are put to work and the PhatGirl is let loose!
Roaring along now at a "Nice" wee pace ...drop a gear and Launch past 3 cars....still no sign of "them".
Get into town.....still having fun...and yet still no sign of a police car?...not one!
Pulling up to some lights gets the Termi's growling....then there on me!....accellerating up fast to my right....damnit!! :facepalm: Im caught!

The cop car pulls up beside me, the two cops are Grinning wildly.......then one gives me the thumbs up....Bikers....there everywhere :niceone:

Ride safe everyone.....and have a great weekend

[miloking]

How many countries operate that system?

Why does NZ always need to copy some "other" country...we are not "them" and especialy we are not Victoria so why do we constrantly need to adopt someone elses policies...

[Kickaha]

Why does NZ always need to copy some "other" country...we are not "them" and especialy we are not Vicoria so why do we constrantly need to adopt someone elses policies...

I didn't say we should be copying anybody, how about answering the question instead of dodging it, I am actually interested if you knew of anyone that does and how their accident rates compare

[Scuba_Steve]

Why does NZ always need to copy some "other" country...we are not "them" and especialy we are not Victoria so why do we constrantly need to adopt someone elses policies...

I don't know, copying this doesn't seem so bad... On the grounds that speed cameras have not reduced the number of accidents in the United Kingdom, the Government has decided to reduce its road safety grants to local authorities this year from GBP 77 million to GBP 56 million. As a result, speed cameras across England are being scrapped one after the other. No new speed cameras will be installed in the foreseeable future either, as the new coalition Government has withdrawn funding for them in a view to cutting costs.


I didn't say we should be copying anybody, how about answering the question instead of dodging it, I am actually interested if you knew of anyone that does and how their accident rates compare

I don't know about a demerit only approach I would say it would still endanger lives just as much (if not more-so) & increase "runners", but EVERY study into speed scams pretty much all say the same thing, speed scams increase accident rates.

[miloking]

I didn't say we should be copying anybody, how about answering the question instead of dodging it, I am actually interested if you knew of anyone that does and how their accident rates compare

I dont know any countries that have that system, but as i said if police are saying they are not revenue collectors...solution is very simple.

And i like the sound of demerit system in Germany, where you can actualy earn points to your licence if you attend special seminars, training etc. (road toll is half of ours per capita...)

[Brian d marge]

I think the argument for revenue gathering went out the window when they decreased fines a while backif the money collected went back into driver education , i would agree , or when government dept\soes stop being user pays ,

until then its revenue gathering ,,,,

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

0oh btw , They dont really worry about speed here , the motorway limit is 80 ,,,yeah right,it just not important , soo we dont have to worry about getting pinged , we can just drive , err normally

sux to be u lot !!!:yes::innocent:

thats assuming you lot can afford the road tax..........

Carry on nurse

Stephen

[Scuba_Steve]

and we're not at the end of Saturday yet - it will be interesting what spin they'll use if the road toll is greater than last year (6) or 2008 (4).

well we've now exceeded 2008 as of this morning shall we try & beat 2009's? still 2 days to go...
"Five people have now died on the roads in four separate crashes, dashing police hopes of a Labour Weekend free of road deaths."

Place your bets now on the excuses that are sure to follow...

[shrub]

well we've now exceeded 2008 as of this morning shall we try & beat 2009's? still 2 days to go...
"Five people have now died on the roads in four separate crashes, dashing police hopes of a Labour Weekend free of road deaths."

Place your bets now on the excuses that are sure to follow...

Alcohol? People ignoring the speed limit? Unfortunately TPTB have decided to focus on the message that road crashes are primarily caused by speed and alcohol to the detriment of road safety because they don't seem to worry about anything else. This focus is because it's easy to measure and police speed and alcohol, whereas driver inattention, tiredness, tail gating and all the other causes of road crashes are hard to police.

[Quasievil]

[/I]
Place your bets now on the excuses that are sure to follow...

Humans.............nough said

[ktm]

Humans? I thought they were pigs.

[trailblazer]

well I have done nearly 600ks this weekend in the car and on the bike and I havn't seen any cops yet so i guess i didn't get a speeding ticket like I thought I would. So much for a bigger police presence. Not in the eastern bay anyway

[Scuba_Steve]

we are upto 6 people we have now matched 2009 still 1 day to go, this decreased tolerance is working perfectly... isn't it???

[oldrider]

The last time they did this they refused to believe the inclement weather was a major contributing factor in the lower totals! :weird:

Perhaps this time they will see the situation for what it really is! :bs:

[miloking]

Well its sad that lots of people had to die this weekend (we are up to 7 and its not even over yet)...but maybe police/politicians will finally understand that they cannot "solve" road toll problem by issuing simple and idiotic blanket rules and then trying to enforce them mercilessly, I guess its little bit more complex than that...but somehow i doubt they will, iam just waiting for tuesday morning press release with list of excuses why the 4km/h tolerance didnt work this time...

[Jonno.]

I really hope more New Zealanders realise how much propaganda they're being fed by the police that "speeding" causes every crash. It's a disgusting tactic likely causing more death then it's saving.

[Kiwi Graham]

well we've now exceeded 2008 as of this morning shall we try & beat 2009's? still 2 days to go...
"Five people have now died on the roads in four separate crashes, dashing police hopes of a Labour Weekend free of road deaths."

Place your bets now on the excuses that are sure to follow...

The last time they did the 4k limit thing and puffed their chests out damming all speeding motorists and hailing their strategy as a great success it was Queens birthday and the weekend was a washout weather wise.

This weekend the weather is fantastic and we have death on the roads.

Maybe its got something to do with the state of the roads and the amount of people using them!
Perhaps if they invested the income from traffic fines into subsidising a descent tar seal surface instead of the crap chip seal they use that melts as soon as the sun comes out and dissolves when it rains it may help reduce actual accidents related to loss of control (working on the theory of more grip = more control)

[MSTRS]

Maybe its got something to do with the state of the roads and the amount of people using them!


Nope. Crap driving skills and lack of roadcraft.
Of course, that may not be the case with the killed...

[HondaSTrider]

Partner and I got up early (for a Sunday!) and rode the bikes from ChCh over to Greymouth and back to watch the street-racing. Left at 6 a.m. and got home at just after 9 p.m.
Saw one "marked" police car on the way over (2 1/2 hrs riding--- yeah I know but we were behaving!)
On the way home saw a couple around the streets of Greymouth and one parked at the round-a-bout @ Kumara Junction. Just around this intersection however, I glanced off-road and saw a black Ford parked back off the road behind some scrub. A couple of K's later this car is right on our tails and followed us for the best part of 30km!!!!!! We were sitting (as near as possible) to the 100 km/hr mark that whole time.
A few obsevations.......
1. He MUST have sped to catch up to us in the first place (without good reason other than we were on bikes!)
2. Having clocked him as a 'bogey' I spent more time in those 30 k's with my eyes OFF the road checking speedo than I ever have in 30 YEARS of riding!
3. 4 km/hr is a rediculous tolerance to try to adhere to, and causes more inattention to travelling than just riding/driving comfortably.
4. I assume they only broke off to "U-turn and investigate" two cars travelling in the opposite direction which appeared to be following too close??? Not really a safe place to U-turn in my opinion either. But then what do I know... only been riding for 30 years and never had an 'incident' with another vehicle whilst riding.

Yup... it's all about the safety folks. :scooter:

Other than that... had a GREAT day at the races as a first time spectator there. :woohoo:

[trailblazer]

I wonder how many tickets for 105kph were issued over the weekend. Maybe they should look at targeting the drivers that don't do the speed limit and that are just wondering round site seeing because they cause a lot of drivers to get inpatient.

[shrub]

Nope. Crap driving skills and lack of roadcraft.
Of course, that may not be the case with the killed...

You mean speed isn't the primary cause of fatal crashes? Please don't tell me you're daring to suggest that road user skill is the problem?

This is heresy, pure and simple.

[MSTRS]

If you were moving, and had a unopened beer in the boot, then 'speed and alcohol were involved'.
Heretic, eh? So burn me at the stake...

[doc]

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8192233/police-disappointed-with-road-toll/

They think the 104km limits is working, because there have been fewer crashes.

[scumdog]

well we've now exceeded 2008 as of this morning shall we try & beat 2009's? still 2 days to go...
"Five people have now died on the roads in four separate crashes, dashing police hopes of a Labour Weekend free of road deaths."

Place your bets now on the excuses that are sure to follow...

Why?

Will it make those dead people any less dead?

[scumdog]

yeah, fuck the cops

I hate cops

if there are any on here, i suggest we ban them now..

who is with me?

Me! Me! I'm with you!:blink:

[Scuba_Steve]

Why?

Will it make those dead people any less dead?

nope but Im always interested in the excuses the cops come up with so they can continue to make $$$ at the expense of lives

[Jantar]

Over Queens Birthday weekend when the reduced tolerance was tried the official line was that is was the advertised police crackdown that resulted in the lowered road toll, and that the weather keeping everyone off the rad had nothing to do with it. This time, using the same logic, then the advertised police crackdown has so far caused 16% more fatalities, with 12 hours still to run.

[Edbear]

nope but Im always interested in the excuses the cops come up with so they can continue to make $$$ at the expense of lives

Pardon? :blink:

[shrub]

at the end of the day they have a job to do, and have been instructed (and indoctrinated) to make policing speed the primary solution to the road toll, which is a strategy that is doomed to failure for a few simple reasons:

1. Driving in cars and (especially) riding bikes is inherently dangerous, especially at speeds above around 30 kmh. No matter what laws get passed, no matter how good we are as drivers/riders and no matter how safe cars are made; as long as we have current technology they're dangerous. We either live with that, and accept that people will crash or we take up walking.

2. Speed is not the problem, excessive speed for the conditions present when driving/riding is the problem, and the conditions are not confined to road and weather. A major condition is the ability of the driver/rider to use their machine, and that in turn is influenced by skill and by their personal and immediate condition (tiredness, sobriety etc) and another condition influencing appropriates of a given speed is the level of distraction present - passengers, cell phones, stereos, pretty girls on the footpath etc.

3. Policing 2 very limited influencing factors (speed relative to arbitrarily decided speed limits) and sobriety) at the expense of managing and influencing almost every other factor is almost dishonest.

The modern politically correct nanny state way is to pass a law against something, and we will see the tolerance dropped to 4 kmh soon enough. We will also see laws passed against other stuff, but they will achieve little and cost freedom. What needs to happen is to educate the public and make driving a privelege not a right. If people switched their brains on before they got behind the wheel/behind bars the cops could go and do something useful and prevent crime.

[Scuba_Steve]

Pardon? :blink:

as posted before, some abstracts from UK studies

Between 1980 and 1995 UK road death rates were falling 7.1 per cent a year. But since speed cameras arrived, deaths have fallen just 2.8 per cent annually. Experts say that if the pre-1995 rate had continued 9,674 lives could have been saved.

The UK Department for Transport funded, then suppressed, a study that shows a 55 percent increase in injury accidents when speed cameras are used on highway work zones and a 31 percent increase when used on freeways without construction projects. According to the Transport Research Laboratory, the "non-works [personal injury accident] rate is significantly higher for the sites with speed cameras than the rate for sites without.

Another one I can't find right now again paid for then suppressed by the UK MOT showed these scams cost up to 1000 lives each year in the UK, not only on the road but this study took policing as a whole into account so lives were being lost to domestic abuse, child abuse, assault, rape, thefts etc, etc these obviously only being the ones possibly preventable had the cops not been out scamming.
Sounds like here really, so if we do a straight population difference comparison (yes I know very primitive & inaccurate) thats up to 69 New Zealanders potentially losing their lives each year because the cops are out scamming, instead of their job (purpose)

[Edbear]

as posted before, some abstracts from UK studies

Between 1980 and 1995 UK road death rates were falling 7.1 per cent a year. But since speed cameras arrived, deaths have fallen just 2.8 per cent annually. Experts say that if the pre-1995 rate had continued 9,674 lives could have been saved.

The UK Department for Transport funded, then suppressed, a study that shows a 55 percent increase in injury accidents when speed cameras are used on highway work zones and a 31 percent increase when used on freeways without construction projects. According to the Transport Research Laboratory, the "non-works [personal injury accident] rate is significantly higher for the sites with speed cameras than the rate for sites without.

Another one I can't find right now again paid for then suppressed by the UK MOT showed these scams cost up to 1000 lives each year in the UK, not only on the road but this study took policing as a whole into account so lives were being lost to domestic abuse, child abuse, assault, rape, thefts etc, etc these obviously only being the ones possibly preventable had the cops not been out scamming.
Sounds like here really, so if we do a straight population difference comparison (yes I know very primitive & inaccurate) thats up to 69 New Zealanders potentially losing their lives each year because the cops are out scamming, instead of their job (purpose)

So are you saying that speed cameras are the cause of the increase in deaths? Is it less cops on the road?

[Scuba_Steve]

So are you saying that speed cameras are the cause of the increase in deaths? Is it less cops on the road?

I would say speed scams cause accidents as they force people to look at an insignificant needle on an insignificant dial instead of the road & the decrease in fatalities we observe is only because of an increase in safety devices in vehicles. I also believe the general public is put in greater danger by cops running these scams instead of doing their job, we've all heard of the child abuse cases going un-investigated, & alot of rape victims will tell you they feel ignored (for want of a better word) after talking to police.

[Jantar]

So are you saying that speed cameras are the cause of the increase in deaths? Is it less cops on the road?
I believe the data showed that it isn't the speed cameras themselves that cause accidents, its the downstream effect that drivers are spending too much time watching their speedo's, and less time watching the road. It is a similar effect noticed in other countries that where speed enforcement is reduced and/or speed limits raised there are fewer accidents, and where speed limits are reduced and/or speed enforcement is increased the accident rate also increases .

[Edbear]

I would say speed scams cause accidents as they force people to look at an insignificant needle on an insignificant dial instead of the road & the decrease in fatalities we observe is only because of an increase in safety devices in vehicles. I also believe the general public is put in greater danger by cops running these scams instead of doing their job, we've all heard of the child abuse cases going un-investigated, & alot of rape victims will tell you they feel ignored (for want of a better word) after talking to police.


I believe the data showed that it isn't the speed cameras themselves that cause accidents, its the downstream effect that drivers are spending too much time watching their speedo's, and less time watching the road. It is a similar effect noticed in other countries that where speed enforcement is reduced and/or speed limits raised there are fewer accidents, and where speed limits are reduced and/or speed enforcement is increased the accident rate also increases .

Does this mean I'm a rare and exceptional driver/rider, the fact that I can drive/ride on the road for 40 years, with two minor speeding tickets, of 61 and 112km/h, no accidents until I spun on oil at less than 50km/h back in May and no concerns when I'm driving about whether there is a camera car around the next corner?

Do you seriously believe that keeping an eye on your speed is so dangerous that you can't possibly abide by the law without risking death? That the death toll is really the Police's fault because drivers are expected to know how fast they are going without crashing and killing themseves..?

[HondaSTrider]

Do you seriously believe that keeping an eye on your speed is so dangerous that you can't possibly abide by the law without risking death? ~~~~..?

I wouldn't go that far.... but as per my previous post I know I had my eyes on the speedo FAR more than should be necessary for normal travelling. Mind you... that was mostly out of sheer bloody-mindedness so as not to give them the slightest reason to pull us over! 4 km/hr is a VERY small margin to keep within given the state of our roads, hills and bends, winds, etc etc. Of course being the bloody-minded type that I am I didn't see the need to go slower than 100 km/hr either if I could help it! (all within the bounds of safety of course!)

I would agree with other posters though that speed alone does NOT warrant the scrutiny that MP's et al would have us believe. If they are going to continue with that line at least put ALL revenue back into safety and training!

[Ocean1]

I believe the data showed that it isn't the speed cameras themselves that cause accidents, its the downstream effect that drivers are spending too much time watching their speedo's, and less time watching the road. It is a similar effect noticed in other countries that where speed enforcement is reduced and/or speed limits raised there are fewer accidents, and where speed limits are reduced and/or speed enforcement is increased the accident rate also increases .

There's a, (individually diverse but) powerful behavioural imperative hard wired into all of us. It's a real-time risk assessment routine and it regulates, (amongst other things) our speed on the road, it prevents us from dying many times a day.

Any attempt to subvert it is going to succeeded only if it artificially modifies our risk perception. There’s a bit of that going on in modern traffic control protocols, but you notice we learn to ignore them pretty quickly.

In short: we’ll do what speed we feel best doing.

End of fucking story.

[Scuba_Steve]

Does this mean I'm a rare and exceptional driver/rider, the fact that I can drive/ride on the road for 40 years, with two minor speeding tickets, of 61 and 112km/h, no accidents until I spun on oil at less than 50km/h back in May and no concerns when I'm driving about whether there is a camera car around the next corner?

Do you seriously believe that keeping an eye on your speed is so dangerous that you can't possibly abide by the law without risking death? That the death toll is really the Police's fault because drivers are expected to know how fast they are going without crashing and killing themseves..?

firstly yes you probably are
secondly to an extent yes. I too can watch speed & road but choose not to as it is much safer watching road alone (& hell I like safe speed) But look at the general public who struggle to operate their automatic cars that a 4yr old could drive & rely on pretty little coloured lights to tell them what to do, safer/easier roads/cars have made worse drivers & speed scams have NEVER been clearly shown to decrease road tolls in-fact there is just as much evidence to suggest they increase the road toll, but there is plenty of evidence to show they increase accidents & take cops away from their core duties thus putting the general public in danger NOT through road alone but like mentioned un-investigated child abuse cases, rape cases, thefts, P's still on the increase & the only ones that seem to be doing anything against that is customs.

Would you not rather see the cops doing something about these child abuse cases, the P "epidemic" etc. rather than making another $38mil for the Govt??? I know I would

[Edbear]

I wouldn't go that far.... but as per my previous post I know I had my eyes on the speedo FAR more than should be necessary for normal travelling. Mind you... that was mostly out of sheer bloody-mindedness so as not to give them the slightest reason to pull us over! 4 km/hr is a VERY small margin to keep within given the state of our roads, hills and bends, winds, etc etc. Of course being the bloody-minded type that I am I didn't see the need to go slower than 100 km/hr either if I could help it! (all within the bounds of safety of course!)

I would agree with other posters though that speed alone does NOT warrant the scrutiny that MP's et al would have us believe. If they are going to continue with that line at least put ALL revenue back into safety and training!

Living up here means that you find yourself in this situation regularly, either being followed by a cop or coming up behind one on the motorway. Sure, you do look more frequently at the speedo, but I never worry overmuch and usually end up passing the cop in front as they are normally only doing 90-95km/h. If I'm doing 105 I don't back off.

I just find it amusing that people blame the Police for doing their job and not the drivers having the accidents. The post I said "Pardon" to implied that the Police were gathering revenue "at the expense of lives". How does that work..?

[scumdog]

Would you not rather see the cops doing something about these child abuse cases, the P "epidemic" etc. rather than making another $38mil for the Govt??? I know I would
Slow down everbody - then the cops won't have to hand out tickets, the Govt won't get $38mil and all the child abuse cases will be solved and 'P' dealers/makers will be locked up.

Sorted.

[Edbear]

firstly yes you probably are
secondly to an extent yes. I too can watch speed & road but choose not to as it is much safer watching road alone (& hell I like safe speed) But look at the general public who struggle to operate their automatic cars that a 4yr old could drive & rely on pretty little coloured lights to tell them what to do, safer/easier roads/cars have made worse drivers & speed scams have NEVER been clearly shown to decrease road tolls in-fact there is just as much evidence to suggest they increase the road toll, but there is plenty of evidence to show they increase accidents & take cops away from their core duties thus putting the general public in danger NOT through road alone but like mentioned un-investigated child abuse cases, rape cases, thefts, P's still on the increase & the only ones that seem to be doing anything against that is customs.

Would you not rather see the cops doing something about these child abuse cases, the P "epidemic" etc. rather than making another $38mil for the Govt??? I know I would

Sorry, I don't buy that. What is your normal cruising speed? If you know, and if you generally travel at that speed, the real issue is that you simply want to travbvel faster than the law allows and not be ticketed for it. As for taking cops away, do you seriously think the public will Police themselves re: speed limits? Sure, many if not most drivers are incompetent but it doesn't excuse speeding. The speed limit has to be arbitrary and enforceable, simple logic. If you personally don't like it you can move to another country or lobby for a law change.

The argument about other Police concerns is a red-herring and innacurate. These issues are taken very seriously by the Police and if you are unbiased enough to enquire, you'll be able to find out what efforts are being put in to resolving them.

[trailblazer]

Slow down everbody - then the cops won't have to hand out tickets, the Govt won't get $38mil and all the child abuse cases will be solved and 'P' dealers/makers will be locked up.

Sorted.
you forgot to add all the 10 year old murder and missing people cases will all be solved aswell.

[Broomrider]

And then there's the case of the idiot who let us ALL down. A high speed chase through the built up area of Greymouth heading south after the street-racing event there involving 3 police cars and a speeding motorcyclist!

I was pleased I wasn't on the road at the time but was aprehensive following the same route out of town a little later as to what mess I would encounter around the next bend.
If the rider involved frequents this forum, you can consider yourself a Grade One Oxygen thief!

[Brian d marge]

at the end of the day they have a job to do, and have been instructed (and indoctrinated) to make policing speed the primary solution to the road toll, which is a strategy that is doomed to failure for a few simple reasons:

1. Driving in cars and (especially) riding bikes is inherently dangerous, especially at speeds above around 30 kmh. No matter what laws get passed, no matter how good we are as drivers/riders and no matter how safe cars are made; as long as we have current technology they're dangerous. We either live with that, and accept that people will crash or we take up walking.

2. Speed is not the problem, excessive speed for the conditions present when driving/riding is the problem, and the conditions are not confined to road and weather. A major condition is the ability of the driver/rider to use their machine, and that in turn is influenced by skill and by their personal and immediate condition (tiredness, sobriety etc) and another condition influencing appropriates of a given speed is the level of distraction present - passengers, cell phones, stereos, pretty girls on the footpath etc.

3. Policing 2 very limited influencing factors (speed relative to arbitrarily decided speed limits) and sobriety) at the expense of managing and influencing almost every other factor is almost dishonest.

The modern politically correct nanny state way is to pass a law against something, and we will see the tolerance dropped to 4 kmh soon enough. We will also see laws passed against other stuff, but they will achieve little and cost freedom. What needs to happen is to educate the public and make driving a privelege not a right. If people switched their brains on before they got behind the wheel/behind bars the cops could go and do something useful and prevent crime.

completly agree , its not hard to solve the roading issue its just that they don't want to ,

I thinks it also stems from a poor and under educated society something which no amount of laws can cure ...

Stephen

[SpeedMonger]

Does this mean I'm a rare and exceptional driver/rider, the fact that I can drive/ride on the road for 40 years, with two minor speeding tickets, of 61 and 112km/h, no accidents until I spun on oil at less than 50km/h back in May and no concerns when I'm driving about whether there is a camera car around the next corner?

No what it does mean is that you could possibly be the most boring biker on the planet.:innocent:

The arbitrary implementation of a generic speed limit on an open road is a complete farce. Everyone with more than half a brain (politicians and certain elements of the rozza therefore excluded) understands that safe speed is condition appropriate.

Riding (driving more so) at the open road speed limit can be tedious and boring, and is a catalyst for inattention / distraction, consequently causing incidents. This is why cagers cause more accidents than bikers, they can become so disassociated with the experience of driving that they switch off.

I believe that "speeding" within the real maximum safe limit for the conditions / vehicle can make you a safer rider / driver if you are focused on what you are doing.

The open road speed limit should be OPEN :scooter:

[Brian d marge]

The open road speed limit should be OPEN :scooter:

not if you have a public health care system that is paid for out the Tax take ...( the real reason they want the road toll down )

Stephen

[oldrider]

The open road speed limit should be OPEN :scooter:

I agree with above statement but:

With fewer clearer laws, well policed and with greater emphasis on dangerous driving offences with really appropriate penalties!

Random driver "fitness to drive" testing would keep us on our toes and up to date with road law.

More personal responsibility with accountability ..... that what gets "measured" gets done!

Random "fitness to drive" testing would be my personal greatest fear, if it were activated and enforced.

I feel I am a reasonably confident and competent driver/rider but could do with tweeking it up a bit all round if I am really honest with myself. (never do today what you can put off until tomorrow, attitude prevails)

I see some sub par driving and behaviour out on our roads at times and I think to myself, how do others see me on the road?

Robbie Burns little ditty: "Would that god the gift to give us, to see ourselves as others see us" springs to mind!

[Edbear]

No what it does mean is that you could possibly be the most boring biker on the planet.:innocent:

The arbitrary implementation of a generic speed limit on an open road is a complete farce. Everyone with more than half a brain (politicians and certain elements of the rozza therefore excluded) understands that safe speed is condition appropriate.

Riding (driving more so) at the open road speed limit can be tedious and boring, and is a catalyst for inattention / distraction, consequently causing incidents. This is why cagers cause more accidents than bikers, they can become so disassociated with the experience of driving that they switch off.

I believe that "speeding" within the real maximum safe limit for the conditions / vehicle can make you a safer rider / driver if you are focused on what you are doing.

The open road speed limit should be OPEN :scooter:

So you're saying that unless everyone is allowed unlimited speed on the open road you are all in grave danger of crashing and dying? :blink: Observations indicate that the number of drivers/riders capable of controlling their vehicle in a safe manner is dismally pathetic, and you can guarantee that an unlimited open road would see an immediate multiplying of the accident and death rate. You've got your head in the clouds because YOU want to speed. Have you considered a track day?


not if you have a public health care system that is paid for out the Tax take ...( the real reason they want the road toll down )Stephen

Yup, how many would want to foot the ACC and Public Health bill? :bye:


I agree with above statement but:

With fewer clearer laws, well policed and with greater emphasis on dangerous driving offences with really appropriate penalties!

Random driver "fitness to drive" testing would keep us on our toes and up to date with road law.

More personal responsibility with accountability ..... that what gets "measured" gets done!

Random "fitness to drive" testing would be my personal greatest fear, if it were activated and enforced.

I feel I am a reasonably confident and competent driver/rider but could do with tweeking it up a bit all round if I am really honest with myself. (never do today what you can put off until tomorrow, attitude prevails)

I see some sub par driving and behaviour out on our roads at times and I think to myself, how do others see me on the road?

Robbie Burns little ditty: "Would that god the gift to give us, to see ourselves as others see us" springs to mind!

Perzackery! The available penalties are adequate, but we need to see some Judges with the gumption to start making the penalty fit the crime!

We all think we can drive/ride better than "everyone else" therefore we should be exempted from the laws, but that's what all the boy-racers and those who run from the cops and like that young feller on Traffic Patrol last night caught doing 207km/h in his SS Commodore, think. I have often said, "Show me an incompetent driver/rider who knows he is incompetent and I'll show you a pedestrian!"

How often in this forum have we had posts from all age groups about how they've had an accident or a near-accident through their own fault. Double the speeds and what carnage are we going to see? Sure, it's not the actual speed that kills, it's the fact that high speeds on public roads mean no margin for error and no "escape routes" - no time to react and avoid a hazardous situation.

I've already confessed to doubling + the open road speed limit at times and enjoying a challenging stretch of road, but the number of times I have found myself thinking, "If I'd been going 10km/h faster, I'd have been dog-meat!", means that the public road is NOT the place for high speeds except in very particular circumstances. Yet many on here seem to think they can safely multiply the speed limit in traffic and on roads where you cannot see what's around the next corner.

[scumdog]

I believe that "speeding" within the real maximum safe limit for the conditions / vehicle can make you a safer rider / driver if you are focused on what you are doing.

The open road speed limit should be OPEN :scooter:

So it's up to YOU (the rider) to decide the safe limit/speed to ride as per everything mentioned in the first paragraph??

Shit, a lot of people can't decide if they want 'fries with that' let alone something as critical as what IS a safe speed for the conditions, hell even WITH a speed limit they seem to crash willy-nilly....:facepalm:

[Scuba_Steve]

you can guarantee that an unlimited open road would see an immediate multiplying of the accident and death rate. You've got your head in the clouds because YOU want to speed. Have you considered a track day?


Facts disagree with you here
Autobahn one of the fastest roads in the world also one with lest fatalities.

Northern Territory Up until 2007, rural roads in the Northern Territory, Australia had no speed limit. Claiming that speed limits were essential to saving lives, the state government imposed a 130km/h (80 MPH) limit on the Stuart, Arnhem, Victoria and Barkly highways and a 110km/h (68 MPH) speed limit on all other roads, unless otherwise marked lower. Despite the best of intentions, however, the number of road deaths actually increased 70 percent after the change -- despite worldwide drop in traffic levels

some from NZ - In the early 1970s, as a result of the 1973 oil shock, both New Zealand and the United States imposed new, lower speed limits in an effort to save fuel. In New Zealand’s case the limit dropped from 60 mph (100ks) to 50mph (80ks), while in the US it dropped to 55 mph - the so-called "double nickel".
In the ten years leading up to the drop in the New Zealand speed limit, an average of 608 New Zealanders had died on the roads each year.
In the ten years that followed the drop from 100 kph down to 80 kph, an average of 707 New Zealanders died on the roads each year: in other words, the new, lower New Zealand speed limit coincided with a 17% increase in road deaths.
For the ten years that our maximum speed limit was only 80 kilometres per hour, an average of 3.75 New Zealanders were killed each year for every ten thousand cars on the road.
For the ten years after that, when the speed limit increased to 100 kph, the average number of deaths dropped by 12%, to just 3.27 deaths per 10,000 vehicles.
The ratio of people injured per 10,000 vehicles tells a similar story: during the low speed era, an average of 100.6 injuries. During the high speed era that followed: just 80.5. A twenty percent drop in injuries in real terms when cars were allowed to travel faster.
higher speeds contribute to smoother traffic flows and less road rage.

So yes there might be a spike when open roads 1st come in but that would soon subside to lower overall fatalities as it becomes the norm, This happens worldwide NZ fatalities went up when speeds were lowered & down when they were raised again.

[Scuba_Steve]

Shit, a lot of people can't decide if they want 'fries with that' let alone something as critical as what IS a safe speed for the conditions, hell even WITH a speed limit they seem to crash willy-nilly....:facepalm:

maybee they still have respect for the law:Police: & just following the example set

About 100 police cars have been written off in the past five years at a cost of more than $3 million.
The number of crashes involving police cars has grown steadily but those damaged during high-speed chases have dropped dramatically.

In 2004 there were 438 crashes, which jumped to 604 in 2005 after reporting processes were improved.
Crash numbers increased to 734 in 2009 – leaving officers with injuries ranging from sprains to burns and broken bones.
But crashes during pursuits – which peaked at 177 in 2007 and then dropped to 129 in 2008 – were down to 61 by December.

[tamarillo]

So instead of us all moaning to eachother lets start doing something. try lots and lost of letters to editors - not ranting and raving as that will be dismissed. heres mine:
National road policing manager Superintendent Paula Rose says ‘We may have lost this battle to stop people dying needlessly on the roads but the war will continue’. Does she not realise she is alienating the people she is supposed to work for and this obsessive fixation with speed is not working?
They are not attacking bad driving and poor decisions and, I believe, are making these real causes of fatality worse. Here how: in Management 101 one learns that in order to expect people to feel responsible and to accept accountability one must first delegate some authority and allow individuals some power to make some decisions.
What our police are doing here is treating us as mindless sheep in contrast to countries in Europe I have driven where they are interested in truly dangerous excessive speed, bad driving, illegal lane changing and passing etc. No one can convince me a cop hiding in trees, at bottom of a hill, early in the morning on a deserted South Island road is helping the road toll.
Tim

[Patrick]

Alcohol? People ignoring the speed limit? Unfortunately TPTB have decided to focus on the message that road crashes are primarily caused by speed and alcohol to the detriment of road safety because they don't seem to worry about anything else. This focus is because it's easy to measure and police speed and alcohol, whereas driver inattention, tiredness, tail gating and all the other causes of road crashes are hard to police.

Yep... put a cop car in the area and all are on their best behaviour and the tiredness disappears.


well I have done nearly 600ks this weekend in the car and on the bike and I havn't seen any cops yet so i guess i didn't get a speeding ticket like I thought I would. So much for a bigger police presence. Not in the eastern bay anyway

The western side was crawling with them. And no fatals either.... Hmmmm....


The last time they did the 4k limit thing and puffed their chests out damming all speeding motorists and hailing their strategy as a great success it was Queens birthday and the weekend was a washout weather wise.

Who was - "they..."? Crap weather usually results in wipeouts - even more so on holiday weekends, regardless.

This weekend the weather is fantastic and we have death on the roads.

Maybe its got something to do with the state of the roads and the amount of people using them!

State of the roads - hell yeah, I reckon. The amount using? Nah.

Perhaps if they invested the income from traffic fines into subsidising a descent tar seal surface instead of the crap chip seal they use that melts as soon as the sun comes out and dissolves when it rains it may help reduce actual accidents related to loss of control (working on the theory of more grip = more control)

Check out the Aussie highways - thick concrete = long lasting and no repair needed. That Hume Highway is brilliant. Dual carriage way with a massive median, no headons because of the separation between the opposing lanes - unlike a white painted line barrier (yellow sometimes...) that we have here.


http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8192233/police-disappointed-with-road-toll/

They think the 104km limits is working, because there have been fewer crashes.

How do you explain it then?

Just one aspect was targetted - and a 25% drop?


nope but Im always interested in the excuses the cops come up with so they can continue to make $$$ at the expense of lives

Jeez - is there a commission? I thought it went elsewhere. Like paying dole bludgers and druggies too fried to work (A.K.A. Sickness and Invalids Benefits...)

Don't mind the slightest, paying for those who are really actually too sick/injured to work though....


I would say speed scams cause accidents as they force people to look at an insignificant needle on an insignificant dial instead of the road ...

For all those who need to constantly watch the insignificant needle, hand in your licenses now. You are a menace to others who have mastered the art of driving AND taking a split second glimpse now and then...

Hey........... isn't that multi tasking? Woo hoo....:woohoo:


...... speed scams have NEVER been clearly shown to decrease road tolls in-fact there is just as much evidence to suggest they increase the road toll, but there is plenty of evidence to show they increase accidents ....

A 25% reduction in crashes not clear enough?

Show us your evidence then..... and not the overseas stuff, where the roads are far superior, the driving skill is more advanced - make it NZ based..... with crap drivers and even crappier roads....

Would you not rather see the cops doing something about these child abuse cases, the P "epidemic" etc. rather than making another $38mil for the Govt??? I know I would

Hell yeah. Yay. Another convert. If only everyone else can stop speeding everywhere, look before turning and drive like their lives depended on it, (like many motorbike riders - not all, but the vast majority...) then we can get on with all the other stuff.....

[Edbear]

Perhaps if we could see the full story behind the fatalities it would help? Okay we are told that "speed and alcohol" or "driver inattention" or "mechanical failure" was a contributory factor, but, couold we be told the complete story? I know the SCU was very thorough in its investigation into my accident. They knew I'd just renewed the WoF, that the Road User and Rego was up to date, that the tyres and overall mechanical condition of the vehicle was fine and they interviewed many witnesses to see if there was anything in the way I was driving that may have contributed.

Their conclusion was that there had been oil on the road and that there was nothing I could have been doing differently to avoid the spin and therefore did not charge me with anything like careless driving.

Statistics that should be available to the Authorities for analysis should be such as age, gender, ethnicity, residency status, type and condition of vehicle, road, weather and traffic conditions at the time, physical condition of the driver, and so on.

I know the Police are more interested in driver ability and driving according to the conditions, vehicle state, etc. than is publicly portrayed and I'm sure the cops on here would agree they have pulled over morons for driving like morons regardless of speed. But the fact is that it is harder to Police driver inattention, unroadworthy vehicles and unlicenced drivers/drivers outside their licence conditions, and not so easy to give stats.

Some of us would be very safe to drive/ride well over the speed limit with the self-control to drive appropriately in traffic and road/weather conditions, but who's going to judge whether you are? The speed limit has to be arbitrary, as you simply cannot have more than one limit on the same road for different drivers, and I seriously doubt whether making the open road limit "open" will save lives...

[Ocean1]

I seriously doubt whether making the open road limit "open" will save lives...

You're an old cunt aincha? Don't you remember the LSZ signs around the countryside? Well the road toll was lower when we had 'em, it's that simple.

And all the doubt you can marshal won't make a jot of difference to the facts here either.

Now run along and annoy your mother.

[Edbear]

You're an old cunt aincha? Don't you remember the LSZ signs around the countryside? Well the road toll was lower when we had 'em, it's that simple.

And all the doubt you can marshal won't make a jot of difference to the facts here either.

Now run along and annoy your mother.

My Mummy wuvs me... :yes:

[miloking]

What? They are wondering if they should make the 4km/h tolerance permanent????


Because it worked soooo well this weekend....

and here comes their excuse no.1 "the crashes were reduced overall" ...without any interest in finding actual reasons for reduced crashed rate. yet most of those "reduced" crashes were minor and would have nothing to do with speed in a first place, at most with inattention....
Its only the fatal and serious crashes the likely have something to do with speed amongst other things that didnt reduce at all...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4272419/Speeding-tolerance-call-for-police-Joyce

[scumdog]

You're an old cunt aincha? Don't you remember the LSZ signs around the countryside? Well the road toll was lower when we had 'em, it's that simple.

And all the doubt you can marshal won't make a jot of difference to the facts here either.

Now run along and annoy your mother.

The car and people population was lower then too don't forget.

[scumdog]

What? They are wondering if they should make the 4km/h tolerance permanent????


Because it worked soooo well this weekend....

and here comes their excuse no.1 "the crashes were reduced overall" ...without any interest in finding actual reasons for reduced crashed rate. yet most of those "reduced" crashes were minor and would have nothing to do with speed in a first place, at most with inattention....
Its only the fatal and serious crashes the likely have something to do with speed amongst other things that didnt reduce at all...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4272419/Speeding-tolerance-call-for-police-Joyce

Waa waaa waa fucking waaa...the squaky wheel doesn't ALWAYS get the oil...

[Edbear]

The car and people population was lower then too don't forget.

And the vast majority of drivers were genuine Kiwi's who knew how to drive. These days we've got people from anywhere and everywhere with no clue how to operate a motor vehicle and tens of thousands more, (and more powerful), vehicles on the road. Coupled with an attitude of complete disrespect for authority and the lives and property of others and what do you expect?

I contend that the reason the German autobahn is so safe, is the way you get your licence over there. Imagine the outcry if the NZ Gummint brought the German licence and the German punitive system in here..!

[Ocean1]

The car and people population was lower then too don't forget.

Yeah, but at least one of the population was me, and that makes up for it.


And the vast majority of drivers were genuine Kiwi's who knew how to drive.

And shoot, and dig a dunny. And more to the point prized their cars 'cause they bought them with cold hard paycheck money and any damage meant hours in the shed fixin' the old bugger.


I contend that the reason the German autobahn is so safe, is the way you get your licence over there.

Utter bollox. There's no prangs 'cause there's no fucking intersections and no opposing traffic. Ever. Christ even I'd have trouble killing myself there.


Fookin' licences, forsooth.

[Marmoot]

If Police presence lowers the road toll by reducing tiredness and stupidity

And the fact says increasing speed (e.g., from 80kph to 100kph) reduces the road toll

Then obviously if we want 0 road fatality, we should have roads with unlimited speed and lined with police cars.

[ukusa]

What? They are wondering if they should make the 4km/h tolerance permanent????


Because it worked soooo well this weekend....

and here comes their excuse no.1 "the crashes were reduced overall" ...without any interest in finding actual reasons for reduced crashed rate. yet most of those "reduced" crashes were minor and would have nothing to do with speed in a first place, at most with inattention....
Its only the fatal and serious crashes the likely have something to do with speed amongst other things that didnt reduce at all...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4272419/Speeding-tolerance-call-for-police-Joyce

The roads were also mostly dry with good visibility, must have helped. What was the weather like last Labour weekend?

[Edbear]

Yeah, but at least one of the population was me, and that makes up for it.

And shoot, and dig a dunny. And more to the point prized their cars 'cause they bought them with cold hard paycheck money and any damage meant hours in the shed fixin' the old bugger.

Utter bollox. There's no prangs 'cause there's no fucking intersections and no opposing traffic. Ever. Christ even I'd have trouble killing myself there.

Fookin' licences, forsooth.

I dunno, I reckon most current drivers on NZ roads would be very capable of having an accident on the Autobahn... :yes:

Having said that, too, my son-in-law who spent most of his life in Germany managed to total his car at 240km/h on it...

Back in the day, we generaly learned to drive on gravel roads and learned braking and skid control, too. We drove Hillman Minx's and Morris Minor's or if we were better off, Ford V8's and Vauxhall's and Holden's with drum brakes and roly-poly suspension. 100km'h was VERY FAST! We rode BSA's and AJS/Matchlesses and skited about doing 70mph! (115km/h for you youngsters).

[doc]

The car and people population was lower then too don't forget.

But but.... the cars are safer now. Those days you needed a bus to transport those that survived the impact. :shutup:

[Jonno.]

There was 1 less death; a reduced speed limit didn't work period. Time to stop pretending going over the speed limit causes most accidents. It's misleading to label deaths being attributed to speed because speed doesn't mean over the speedlimit.

[oldrider]

You're an old cunt aincha? Don't you remember the LSZ signs around the countryside? Well the road toll was lower when we had 'em, it's that simple.

And all the doubt you can marshal won't make a jot of difference to the facts here either.

Now run along and annoy your mother.

Well I am an even older one and I well remember the LSZ signs and they were far more respected than the replacement arbitrary speed limit signs!

I believe that open speed limits areas and more personal responsibility will work if training and preparation for them is carried out before implementation.

The laws need to be simplified and/or reduced and the emphasis on punishment for breaking them focussed onto those that break them, rather than those that obey and respect them.

Police need to be empowered to make on the spot decisions and backed to the hilt by "lawyers and Judges" when they get it right and shit kicked out of them when they get it wrong but only when they get it wrong!

Above all the police should be supported by the general public unless they clearly get it wrong and have it proved before they (public) unleash their fury and outrage!

I.E. help the police win back public respect!

More personal contribution, more personal accountability, more personal freedom for those that get it right, more personal consequences for those that get it wrong and our roads will become a much safer place to be! IMHO! :yes:

[Brian d marge]

There was 1 less death; a reduced speed limit didn't work period. Time to stop pretending going over the speed limit causes most accidents. It's misleading to label deaths being attributed to speed because speed doesn't mean over the speedlimit.

you know I was thinking the same thing today, most if not all of the accidents this weekend were down to speed, not over the speed limit , just too fast for the time and place and when we drink out goes the ability to make a half decent judgement call on said speed and conditions

driver training again , not 4kmph limits

Stephen

[red mermaid]

LSZ signs were not respected and they were taken away because the public did not understand them.

Even if they did manage to remember any of the 5 conditions that meant the lower speed limit applied they would argue long and hard that it was not bad enough for those conditions to come into play



Well I am an even older one and I well remember the LSZ signs and they were far more respected than the replacement arbitrary speed limit signs!

I believe that open speed limits areas and more personal responsibility will work if training and preparation for them is carried out before implementation.

The laws need to be simplified and/or reduced and the emphasis on punishment for breaking them focussed onto those that break them, rather than those that obey and respect them.

Police need to be empowered to make on the spot decisions and backed to the hilt by "lawyers and Judges" when they get it right and shit kicked out of them when they get it wrong but only when they get it wrong!

Above all the police should be supported by the general public unless they clearly get it wrong and have it proved before they (public) unleash their fury and outrage!

I.E. help the police win back public respect!

More personal contribution, more personal accountability, more personal freedom for those that get it right, more personal consequences for those that get it wrong and our roads will become a much safer place to be! IMHO! :yes:

[Pixie]

There was 1 less death; a reduced speed limit didn't work period. Time to stop pretending going over the speed limit causes most accidents. It's misleading to label deaths being attributed to speed because speed doesn't mean over the speedlimit.

Wake up!

Training and education costs.

Enforcing bullshit excuses such as "speed kills" brings in revenue and votes

[Pixie]

And the vast majority of drivers were genuine Kiwi's who knew how to drive. These days we've got people from anywhere and everywhere with no clue how to operate a motor vehicle and tens of thousands more, (and more powerful), vehicles on the road. Coupled with an attitude of complete disrespect for authority and the lives and property of others and what do you expect?

I contend that the reason the German autobahn is so safe, is the way you get your licence over there. Imagine the outcry if the NZ Gummint brought the German licence and the German punitive system in here..!

Not to mention the outcry from the breakfast cereal manufacturers - who'll by the stuff if you don't get a free licence in the box any more?

[Pixie]

......a descent tar seal surface instead of the crap chip seal they use that melts as soon as the sun comes out and dissolves when it rains it may help reduce actual accidents related to loss of control (working on the theory of more grip = more control)

Unfortunately it isn't the sun that's to blame.They deliberately use a lower melting point bitumen that is cheap because other countries won't buy it.

Old North Road Kumeu was resealed 3 weeks ago - within one week the bitumen was rising to the surface creating a nice shiny,slick finish.That week was cool and overcast. :angry:

[terbang]

Drove down to Hamilton to visit the outlaws.. There were lots of signs telling us that there were more cops out there and yes I saw a couple too. However I saw four speed camera vans as well, so I guess some cops got some fishing in.

The unmarked vans were parked in obscure little spots to trap speedsters. Now I agree, more cops out there over labour weekend being visible and grabbing those that break the law could help reduce the death toll. But a speed camera is felt about three weeks later when the fine turns up in the mail. I guess it will remind us to slow down next labour weekend, but no impact on this one. Though I guess the volume of traffic on labour weekend is just too good of an opportunity to pick up a bit of extra revenue. I call it cop out policing...

The advantage of police on the road is they can also nobble all the tailgaters, crossing the centre line, pissed and stoned drivers who are invisible to the speed cameras.

Anyway, as of this morning it was 8, the same as last year so I guess all that was gained was revenue. Shame really that our regulators and enforcers have got themselves so brainwashed over speed and seem oblivious to the driver training issues, road maintenance issues that our country is so sadly lacking. Or is legislation better for revenue than education?

[oldrider]

LSZ signs were not respected and they were taken away because the public did not understand them.

Even if they did manage to remember any of the 5 conditions that meant the lower speed limit applied they would argue long and hard that it was not bad enough for those conditions to come into play

In other words you reckon they were too "subjective" but I believe the discretion (interpretation) should be with the police to charge them with dangerous driving instead of the original misdemeanour then!

There are plenty of 70kph and 50kph zones that used to be LSZ and could be observed as the conditions of the day changed, it was good too!

I blame the stupid bloody lawyers and Judges for getting that taken away and all they did was line their own pockets while they did it and help with the current disrespect for the police being the way it is!

The police (like that prick in Alexandra) can do that on their own they don't need all the help the law society, Judges and corrections have been giving them!

It's got nothing to do with combining police and traffic, it goes right across the spectrum, politics down, treating law abiding people like children and supporting the criminals like they are saints! :tugger:

PS: I respected the LSZ signs and zones, so that's one!

[ukusa]

LSZ signs were not respected and they were taken away because the public did not understand them.

Even if they did manage to remember any of the 5 conditions that meant the lower speed limit applied they would argue long and hard that it was not bad enough for those conditions to come into play

Says it all really. Dumb arses who couldn't understand/remember that rule shouldn't have been able to get a licence, after all it was in the road code! As is the right turn rule that is going to get changed, if it was too confusing, how the fuck did so many pass their licence? Who's to blame for that?
Fuck, even my wifes 85yo (at the time) grandfather managed to pass his age driving test on his licence a few years ago. It took him 3 attempts & in the end he got it much to everyones surprise. None of his family were brave enough to even get in the car with him. A couple of minor dings later & they managed to convince him to give up & sell the car.
It's just so fucking easy.

[scracha]

And the vast majority of drivers were genuine Kiwi's who knew how to drive.!

Fuck off, some of the worst drivers on the road are "genuine" Kiwi's who can't ride or drive for shit. It's not their fault.....pathetic licensing system combined with most learning to ride/drive from their dad, no doubt in a paddock.

[Berries]

Time to stop pretending going over the speed limit causes most accidents. It's misleading to label deaths being attributed to speed because speed doesn't mean over the speedlimit.
Bang on. Speed kills. Well, no. Inappropriate speed does and even if you are under the 100km/h speed limit you can still mess yourself up pretty bad. Which is worse ? Those people who do 120 on the straights yet comply with all advisories on the corners, or those who do 104 from A to B and ignore the 65k corners ? The former will get ticketed, but I would suggest that the latter are the road safety problem, and will never be touched until they crash, and by then it is too late as we have seen over the weekend.

I find it pretty galling, but I have to agree with Red Mermaid on this one. Limited Speed Zones were a misunderstood crock of shit, and it is good to be shot of them. "Oh look, there's a cloud, best slow down to 50 Mabel"

[SpeedMonger]

So it's up to YOU (the rider) to decide the safe limit/speed to ride as per everything mentioned in the first paragraph??

Shit, a lot of people can't decide if they want 'fries with that' let alone something as critical as what IS a safe speed for the conditions, hell even WITH a speed limit they seem to crash willy-nilly....:facepalm:

Yep accountability is what it is about, puts the onus on the drivers and the penalties to match the consequences of the outcomes.

Just to experiment, and give the finger to edbear, I rode to work at the speed limit this morning, a 60 km commute on mostly straight rural roads. I got overtaken by every damn vehicle on the road, it was highly disconcerting. Most were travelling at 115 - 120kph ( don't ask how my estimates were achieved but they were accurate).

I would say that if the open road limits were made open ( or significantly higher) most drivers of modern vehicles would be content to travel at that range of speed.

The biggest problem is the pricks that pull out in front of vehicles travelling at open road speed with a total disregard to the approaching traffic in either direction.

[JohnJumper]

Fuck off, some of the worst drivers on the road are "genuine" Kiwi's who can't ride or drive for shit. It's not their fault.....pathetic licensing system combined with most learning to ride/drive from their dad, no doubt in a paddock.

Defintiely, they're usually the ones in denial about their driving ability too

[pzkpfw]

I was once picked up hitch-hiking by a German couple in a campervan.

(Stop reading now, if you think that might lead to an "interesting" story.)

To their great credit, they had a New Zealand road code and were studying it. They were already driving, but still, they were continuing to read.

They (the one not driving) would show me pictures of road signs and get me to confirm what they meant.

For the LSZ sign they asked three times.

The look on their faces would have been the same as if I'd said "it means you have to drive past, in reverse, with an Irish flag on the roof and three dead cats hanging from the bumper".

[Edbear]

Fuck off, some of the worst drivers on the road are "genuine" Kiwi's who can't ride or drive for shit. It's not their fault.....pathetic licensing system combined with most learning to ride/drive from their dad, no doubt in a paddock.

I wasn't talking about today. Back in the 60's and 70's the roads were a different place. These days it's anarchy out there.

We were taught by our parents to drive and we were taught properly. The licences were far easier to get than today as well. We were a different generation with a different attitude to the law, and while many drove drunk and many drove over the speed limit the consequences were less serious due to far less traffic and much lower speeds.

[MSTRS]

I wasn't talking about today. Back in the 60's and 70's the roads were a different place. These days it's anarchy out there.

We were taught by our parents to drive and we were taught properly. The licences were far easier to get than today as well. We were a different generation with a different attitude to the law, and while many drove drunk and many drove over the speed limit the consequences were less serious due to far less traffic and much lower speeds.

Eh, wrong! The driving skills may have been better, but that was offset by conditions inferior to today. Why do you think the death toll averaged 700-800 a year?
Today, conditions have improved, meaning less effort required to drive - which has lead to an easing in the skills of your average driver. Which is why we still have a road toll of some 350 p.a.

[tamarillo]

I wasn't talking about today. Back in the 60's and 70's the roads were a different place. These days it's anarchy out there.

We were taught by our parents to drive and we were taught properly. The licences were far easier to get than today as well. We were a different generation with a different attitude to the law, and while many drove drunk and many drove over the speed limit the consequences were less serious due to far less traffic and much lower speeds.

We were taught to drive properly? Who was? I was not in early 70's and nor was any body I know. It was not training it was a case of learn basic min needed to not be a total arse and hope for the best. I certianly was not taught to ride with anything more than very very basics.

[steve_t]

We were taught to drive properly? Who was? I was not in early 70's and nor was any body I know. It was not training it was a case of learn basic min needed to not be a total arse and hope for the best. I certianly was not taught to ride with anything more than very very basics.

I'm thinking that back in the 60's and 70's that the "far less traffic" part of Edbear's post had the most significance

[Scuba_Steve]

We were taught to drive properly? Who was? I was not in early 70's and nor was any body I know. It was not training it was a case of learn basic min needed to not be a total arse and hope for the best. I certianly was not taught to ride with anything more than very very basics.

A BIG problem of today is the driver training tho (or lack there of). I would consider myself Gen-X I am of a cross-over generation brought up "old skool" way but at the beginning of this fluffy, pussy, PC :bs:. No-one gets taught how to drive anymore my driver training was with my dad, just like his b4 etc. & everything was taught the engine didn't even get started before I had full control of the gear system & where the clutch picked up, and any screw up was greeted with a smack round the head (as it should be) these are 1-2 tonne killing machines we drive & I was made fully aware of this fact. But nowadays no-ones parents teach them anymore & smacking people upside the head is illegal. As for driver training they will teach legal driving NOT safe driving

If safety was really of concern heres what ya do.
Ban american style indicators
Ban automatics except for those with disabilities (which does raise a question should they be on the road in the 1st place?)
Ban cruise control
Make the learners license 2-wheels ONLY (learn the road before getting in a killing machine) from then you can move to restricted car which would be as learner car today.
Ban speed scams
Make the open road open speed
ANY deaths caused with a vehicle through stupid actions be regarded as manslaughter.

[Edbear]

Eh, wrong! The driving skills may have been better, but that was offset by conditions inferior to today. Why do you think the death toll averaged 700-800 a year?
Today, conditions have improved, meaning less effort required to drive - which has lead to an easing in the skills of your average driver. Which is why we still have a road toll of some 350 p.a.


We were taught to drive properly? Who was? I was not in early 70's and nor was any body I know. It was not training it was a case of learn basic min needed to not be a total arse and hope for the best. I certianly was not taught to ride with anything more than very very basics.

I take your points and you may be right. It is amazing today that the road toll isn't two or three times higher considering the standard of driving skill we see around us.


I'm thinking that back in the 60's and 70's that the "far less traffic" part of Edbear's post had the most significance

True, having said that though, the above posters make a valid point.

[MSTRS]

I take your points and you may be right. It is amazing today that the road toll isn't two or three times higher considering the standard of driving skill we see around us.


It would be, barring generally safer cars, better medical response and outcomes (you will relate to this one), and less roadside obstacles.

[Edbear]

It would be, barring generally safer cars, better medical response and outcomes (you will relate to this one), and less roadside obstacles.

Ironically, yes! I survived the crash okay, it was in hospital they nearly killed me... :blink:

My van was a '93 model, so quite old, but they are a particularly strong vehicle and an air-bag would have been no benefit to me in that crash. The injury was a compression fracture so the only thing that would have saved my back would have been a suspension seat.

[MSTRS]

Ironically, yes! I survived the crash okay, it was in hospital they nearly killed me... :blink:

Yes...well that does happen too...lots. Just wasn't your 'time', eh?


My van was a '93 model, so quite old, ...
But still way better than a '70s vehicle. Or one 20 years old then. Back then, many didn't even have a basic seatbelt. And your's would have been retractable too.

[Edbear]

Yes...well that does happen too...lots. Just wasn't your 'time', eh?

But still way better than a '70s vehicle. Or one 20 years old then. Back then, many didn't even have a basic seatbelt. And your's would have been retractable too.

I'm a stubborn old coot, I've survived several attempts at dying... :innocent:

Yep, even a late 80's vehicle is a lot safer. I remember when the HQ Holden came out in late 1971, a lot of noise was made over it's safety features, the unibody/cage construction, power discs and collapsable steering column. Then the HZ in late '78 with its "Radial Tuned Suspension".

I remember working in a garage in the mid-70's installing the latest in safety features, the seatbelt. Either lap for the middle or diagonal for the outer seats. Then they decided lap and diagonal was best for the outer seats. We drilled holes in B-pillars and floors, strengthened with thick washers. By '79/'80, we could install retractable belts which caused some issues with seat runner clearance as the reel was bolted to the base of the B-pillar and protruded into the cabin space at the base of the seat.

The 90's saw crumple zones, seat-belt grabbers and air-bags becoming available in less expensive cars, ABS brakes were standard on our '99 Pulsar SLX and being the SLX had 4-wheel disc brakes and bigger alloys and tyres. Driver's air-bag only though on our model.

The reason I like retro, is because you can have the style you are fond of from your youth but modern engineering.

[PeteJ]

Sidelight, but an important one:

If you cannot even tell your actual speed without referring to a speedo, how can you tell what would be a safe speed without a speed limit at all?

(Disclaimer: my experience is confined to 5 years - 1975-80 - with one of my bikes having no operating speedometer, competing in road trial etc; so I know nothing personally about this, of course...)

[Ocean1]

LSZ signs were not respected and they were taken away because the public did not understand them.

That'd be a troll, surely.

A member of ‘Er Majesties’ finest wouldn’t be so supercilious and arrogant as to utter such drivel, for all love?

[MSTRS]

That'd be a troll, surely.

A member of ‘Er Majesties’ finest wouldn’t be so supercilious and arrogant as to utter such drivel, for all love?

*splutter*

'twere nought to wif unnerstandin' - an' all to do wif assumshun that drivers 'ave to be told wot to do.

[MSTRS]

Sidelight, but an important one:

If you cannot even tell your actual speed without referring to a speedo, how can you tell what would be a safe speed without a speed limit at all?


Every road has what I call a 'natural speed'...a speed at which one is comfortable negotiating that road in safety. Trouble is, that speed is different for each of us. Factors such as what vehicle, it's condition, weather, experience, ability all come into play (assuming a free run with no Mabels in the way). It is patently obvious that some roads are rated too slow, but as riders we try to avoid them, except as a means of getting to the roads that present a challenge, even at legal speeds.

[Edbear]

Every road has what I call a 'natural speed'...a speed at which one is comfortable negotiating that road in safety. Trouble is, that speed is different for each of us. Factors such as what vehicle, it's condition, weather, experience, ability all come into play (assuming a free run with no Mabels in the way). It is patently obvious that some roads are rated too slow, but as riders we try to avoid them, except as a means of getting to the roads that present a challenge, even at legal speeds.

That's the key point here. You and I might be quite capable of doubling the open road speed limit, or cruising at 140km/h and be quite safe, but the great unwashed can barely control their vehicle at 70km/h! I've been passenger in a lot of vehicles and the driving standards have been disturbing and even frightening at times.

So what is the best compromise for a realistic speed limit and who should make that decision?

Certainly I deplore the acceptance of driving standards by the authorities, especially with immigrants! Far too many are allowed behind the wheel without what I would consider a minimum level of competence. Generally the NZ Licencing system is okay IMHO, and the kids learning to drive today are doing very well. Notable is the fact that it is the 20 somethings causing the most carnage, with immigrant/tourist drivers about the next highest offender's.

[MSTRS]

Notable is the fact that it is the 20 somethings causing the most carnage....

I think you will find that it always was. (Most) learners tend to respect their lack of skill and experience, but give them a couple of years ...
It's the 40ish born again bikers that are the anomoly.

[BigG]

It's the bleeding Roads :yes: :violin:

[MSTRS]

Hasn't been hot enough...yet.

[shrub]

That's the key point here. You and I might be quite capable of doubling the open road speed limit, or cruising at 140km/h and be quite safe, but the great unwashed can barely control their vehicle at 70km/h! I've been passenger in a lot of vehicles and the driving standards have been disturbing and even frightening at times.

So what is the best compromise for a realistic speed limit and who should make that decision?

Certainly I deplore the acceptance of driving standards by the authorities, especially with immigrants! Far too many are allowed behind the wheel without what I would consider a minimum level of competence. Generally the NZ Licencing system is okay IMHO, and the kids learning to drive today are doing very well. Notable is the fact that it is the 20 somethings causing the most carnage, with immigrant/tourist drivers about the next highest offender's.

And that's why this blind adherance to speed being the major (and almost sole) cause of crashes is a problem. Instead of dealing with the problem, which is driver skill (and I include riders here), our masters focus on a single issue and wonder why people die on the roads.

[steve_t]

It's the bleeding Roads :yes: :violin:


Hasn't been hot enough...yet.

:killingme:laugh:

[ukusa]

Let's face the reality here. Some people are just better than others at some stuff. no matter how much training, practice or years they put in. Sometimes it's just in the genes.
Sport is a good analogy, eg. 2 kids can grow up playing rugby from a young age, played every game, went to every practice. One is brilliant & makes the AB's, the other is average & doesn't.

Same with driving. Some people can attend as many driving schools as they like, and have 20 years plus experience on the road, but they may never be any better than a good attentive driver who has been driving only 2 years.

We have the ability to improve things a little, but if anyone thinks we can all come up to the same standard they are dreaming.

[Edbear]

And that's why this blind adherance to speed being the major (and almost sole) cause of crashes is a problem. Instead of dealing with the problem, which is driver skill (and I include riders here), our masters focus on a single issue and wonder why people die on the roads.

I do believe the cops do look at driving ability when they're on patrol, but it is an area very hard to quantify with stats. Perhaps the Police on KB can tell us how much effort they put in to general driving standards?


I think you will find that it always was. (Most) learners tend to respect their lack of skill and experience, but give them a couple of years ...
It's the 40ish born again bikers that are the anomoly.

Yep, I agree. I gave myself a fright when I returned in '03. It was riding a modern bike with handling and brakes that saved me turning myself into part of the scenery.

Get a few youngster's together with beer and testosterone flowing freely, egging each other on and all sense of reason gets flushed down the toilet.

[red mermaid]

In conclusion, I think you are all saying...its everyone but me! :innocent:

[spookytooth]

In conclusion, I think you are all saying...its everyone but me! :innocent:
No its you definitely