Biker down. Yep I just got bowled... [Archive]

Phreak

7th November 2010, 19:55

Just so everyone knows, I got home from the amazing weekend in Taupo with MAG-NZ, unloaded all my gear to get ready to head back to work (Lifeguard training night), jumped back on the bike...

At about 5:50pm, I head off, just out of my driveway, heading down the road at about 40-45 km/h, a silver four door car pulls out of a road on the left (with a no-right turn sign posted) pretty much right in front of me, to go in the same direction as me. Okay, I think, natural evasion tactics kick in and I quickly move to go around him (no traffic coming the other way). Nope, he decides he wants to pull into the kindergarten on the right hand side of the road (I suspect to turn around to go back the way we came, as the road he pulled out of was a 'no right turn'...) So, all of a sudden I have no-where to go, hit the brakes just fast enough to slide sideways right into his rear drivers side door and rear quarter panel. I come off, bike slides down the road, me tumbling down the road in a ball. I come to a stop, bike is revving its tits off, so I jump to my feet (prob not the best idea at the time, but hey...) and run to where the bike is to flick the key off, pick it up and move it off the road.

The guy in the car pulls over, walks up and asks if I'm okay - Hell no, I'm not okay, but I haven't even given myself the once over yet... So I check my helmet which doesn't appear to have any scratches on it, and nothing really hurts apart from my leg where I hit the car, so yeah, I'm pretty much okay. Go to check his car, and there are two relatively big dents in the side, exchange details and then he says he's gotta go. Fuck, should I call the police or not? Well, no-one hurt, I guess not. (By the way, I'm not exactly thinking straight right then or now so I hope this kinda makes sense... I'll get to why in a sec...) So anyways, he heads off, after I tell him to keep his phone on him 'cause I'm gonna call as soon as my head stops spinning. I go back to where the bike is standing, to assess the damage. All the left side fairings are scratched and broken, left front indicator broken off, gear lever broken off, H-frame bent inwards, mirror bent and scratched up, plus probably a whole heap more that I can't see. Oh yeah, it won't start for some reason now too. I haven't had a really close look at it all yet, but hoping it's not anything too bad...

So I'm in a pretty bad mood right now, because anyone that knows me knows that the bike is my absolute pride and joy, and this is a pretty hefty blow... I'm pretty sure I'm okay, physically I mean, but still pissed off..

Maybe I shouldn't have written this until I calmed down a little bit...

Mully

7th November 2010, 19:57

RING THE POLICE. Or go and see them tomorrow.

As a rule, the first report tends to get more attention.

Heal up quick.

Katman

7th November 2010, 20:00

J
Okay, I think, natural evasion tactics kick in and I quickly move to go around him (no traffic coming the other way).

Why? Were you pissed off that he pulled out in front of you?

Phreak

7th November 2010, 20:02

Yeah, been to see the Police, my flatmate told me I had to. We'll see what happens.
My first off, I didn't have a freakin' clue what I was supposed to do...

Nah, wasn't pissed off that he pulled out infront of me, just that it was so close! He reckons he saw me, and that I was ages away, but I say he didn't see me (the sun was behind me...)

NUTBAR

7th November 2010, 20:04

thats not good mate. good to hear your ok at least. bike can be repaired. & pollished.

Fatt Max

7th November 2010, 20:04

Shit dude, that farking sucks......

24 hours ago we were beering it up in Taupo and having a great giggle, I'm so sorry to hear this mate, really am.

Ok, appreciate you are wound up, totally understand, but two things:

1 - report it to the police as soon as you can, and
2 - get yourself checked out sharpish like. Honestly mate, get this done, believe me its worth doing.

Mate, you got my number, if you need anything let me know. Main thing is though you get the all clear and then we can get to work on the bike stuff.

Take care mate

The Everlasting

7th November 2010, 20:05

Oh that sucks man,but lucky that you aren't hurt!

Phreak

7th November 2010, 20:06

Thanks Mark, means lots to me mate. FWIW, I had a blast in Taupo!!! Shitty way to end such an amazing weekend...

Fatt Max

7th November 2010, 20:07

.....and another thing,

Never ever sing in what you think is an German accent......I've had two visits from the NZ Secret Service accusing me of hiding explosives in my bike jacket. I had to show them me belly just to prove that I am, in fact, a big fat bastard.....

That looks like fun

7th November 2010, 20:08

A1 with contacting Police, its not about getting the other guy in the shit or teaching him a lesson, its about this thing called "Insurance"
I got taken out from behind once by a "fellow" :angry: biker and as it seemed pretty clear cut couldn't see any point in him getting a ticket. However when came insurance time he claimed I was at fault :blink: (still haven't figured that one out). The insurance company jumped on the "here is a reason not to pay" bandwagon they love and the result was 6 months of frustration and battling against stupidity to get my scooter fixed :facepalm:
Had the police been involved blame would have been apportioned by them, no problems :yes:
Unless of course your in the wrong in which case disregard all the above statement :innocent:

Phreak

7th November 2010, 20:09

Hahahahahaha... Ouch... Hehehehe... Ouch... Yep, going to see the doctor tomorrow, missus is taking me.

Mom

7th November 2010, 20:10

Your poor little bike :weep:

Very pleased to hear you are not too banged up yourself. Get yourself some arnica cream for the bruises you are bound to have.

Fancy getting all the way home and then have this happen. We are finally home! Absolutely shagged out.

Phreak

7th November 2010, 20:12

Yeah, pretty cut up about the poor bike, such a warrior it has been! Just looking at it at the moment makes me really sad...

Fatt Max

7th November 2010, 20:13

Your poor little bike :weep:

We are finally home! Absolutely shagged out.

Wondered what all that noise was, I thought you guys were actually digging a tunnel......

Katman

7th November 2010, 20:15

Yeah, pretty cut up about the poor bike, such a warrior it has been! Just looking at it at the moment makes me really sad...

Might sound like strange advice but......

........my advice is, beat yourself up over it. It sounds like a totally avoidable accident.

Phreak

7th November 2010, 20:17

Ummm gee. Thanks. Now piss off. Retard.
(Sorry, still upset...)

Edbear

7th November 2010, 20:17

RING THE POLICE. Or go and see them tomorrow.

As a rule, the first report tends to get more attention.

Heal up quick.

Shit dude, that farking sucks......

24 hours ago we were beering it up in Taupo and having a great giggle, I'm so sorry to hear this mate, really am.

Ok, appreciate you are wound up, totally understand, but two things:

1 - report it to the police as soon as you can, and
2 - get yourself checked out sharpish like. Honestly mate, get this done, believe me its worth doing.

Mate, you got my number, if you need anything let me know. Main thing is though you get the all clear and then we can get to work on the bike stuff.

Take care mate

Hahahahahaha... Ouch... Hehehehe... Ouch... Yep, going to see the doctor tomorrow, missus is taking me.

There you go, and I didn't have to say anything... :innocent:

Your poor little bike :weep:

Very pleased to hear you are not too banged up yourself. Get yourself some arnica cream for the bruises you are bound to have.

Fancy getting all the way home and then have this happen. We are finally home! Absolutely shagged out.

Bet you're tired as well.... :shutup:

Fatt Max

7th November 2010, 20:19

Here you go dude, this will wiggle yer wotsits...

Old Steve

7th November 2010, 20:21

By a fellow biker. Was riding to Kawerau to do the Mountain to the Sea ride with a group from Tauranga, stopped at the stop sign where the road from Matata meets the Kawerau (Rotorua to Whakatane road) and the rider folowing me thought I'd gone through the stop without stopping and hit me on my right hand side, lucky he was only doing 10 or 15 km/hr.

He and his pillion went over onto their right side, I went over onto my left side, both the other rider and I had our legs caught under our bikes and mine was pissing fuel. Lucky we are all unhurt, my bike was undamaged. But his had the gear selector lever twisted up and turned 90 degrees round and left hand foot peg twisted back (where they hit my boot) and his foot brake lever bent up and out of line (where his bike hit the ground). We were able to bend everything back into approximately the correct shape so he could ride on.

Not as serious as your smash, Phreak. But it brought home to me just how careful we have to be and, even if we are, how our safety isn't always entirely in our own hands.

Hope you get better as fast as possible Phreak. And back onto your next bike.

JimO

7th November 2010, 20:23

Might sound like strange advice but......

........my advice is beat yourself up over it. It sounds like a totally avoidable accident.

same thing happened to me many years ago, riding a kawasaki Z1r up a 50k road at at least 80ks, guy pulls out in a hr holden, i go to blast past and he turns right in front of me into a side road, i turned into superman and flew over the car, the bike was banged up to the tune of around a grand (1982 dollars) the back guard of his car was punched in, he didnt have a licence and the car had no rego /wof and i was speeding so we decided to call it even and fucked off before the cops turned up. I learned my lesson that day

Edbear

7th November 2010, 20:26

Here you go dude, this will wiggle yer wotsits...

You guys need a pair of these... :yes:

Katman

7th November 2010, 20:27

You guys need a pair of these... :yes:

They're the ones the Braille Society give out, aren't they?

ynot slow

7th November 2010, 20:28

Bugger mate,at least you're ok,whose fault will be debateable,that's for insurance turkeys.

And some guys have the idea any bins by bikers are their(riders)fault,some are,but many are bloody other road users not watching traffic flows,oil spilt,loose chip,cars on wrong side of road(3 times on weekend to us,cars in front each time thank christ).

Edbear

7th November 2010, 20:29

They're the ones the Braille Society give out, aren't they?

Shhhh.... :shutup:

Fatt Max

7th November 2010, 20:30

You guys need a pair of these... :yes:

That reminds me, must call the welder tomorrow and get my drains done

Katman

7th November 2010, 20:32

Ummm gee. Thanks. Now piss off. Retard.

That's ok, you're allowed to be bitter.

Just ask yourself though - who really is the retard here?

Edbear

7th November 2010, 20:33

That reminds me, must call the welder tomorrow and get my drains done

Make sure he uses plenty of flux... :yes:

Fatt Max

7th November 2010, 20:34

Make sure he uses plenty of flux... :yes:

Will do sweetheart, he really fluxed it up the last time eh.....

baptist

7th November 2010, 20:47

Here you go dude, this will wiggle yer wotsits...

:shit::shit::shit::gob: call the cops they have escaped again....

Maha

7th November 2010, 21:04

Bummer Scott, what a shit way to end a perfect weekend.
On Saturday, you showed us just how much your bike means you (I wont mention you 'polishing your helmet' in front of us)....had a great ride home today with you today mate...
Got about some real good pic's for ys also, check em' out the Taupo thread later.

Mark

Phreak

7th November 2010, 21:07

EDITED: Will do, thanks Mark. Oh yeah, thanks for helping me with my cornering technique as well, I learnt heaps following you today!

Edbear

7th November 2010, 21:14

Will do, thanks Mark. Oh yeah, thanks for helping me with my cornering technique as well, I learnt heaps following your lines today!

Must.... resist.... must.... resist.... :shutup: :facepalm:

Phreak

7th November 2010, 21:35

Oh dear.... Lol

\m/

7th November 2010, 21:42

Glad you're not too badly hurt. Hopefully your bike isn't a write-off, maybe you should check with a plastic welder to see if the fairings can be repaired.

Sims

7th November 2010, 22:08

Mate, I can relate had almost the same thing happen to me today riding from Clevedon to Kawakawa bay.

Green BMW slowly moved to the left of the lane without indicating and I was just getting ready to overtake before they started a right turn!!! slammed the anchors on and came to a mighty ugly screaming stop. If I hadn't slowed down a bit trying to work out what they were doing (before deciding it was pulling over) I would of collided for sure.

Was riding with a mate who saw it all and was psyched up to let the BMW driver know what he thought of people who don't use indicators, but I just pulled over took a few deep breaths and looked around like a stunned mullet!

Look after the leg, hope the bike tidys up ok. Counting my lucky stars I'm not in the same situ!

Max Preload

7th November 2010, 22:29

That's ok, you're allowed to be bitter.

Just ask yourself though - who really is the retard here?Would it be the retard who pulled out without looking or the retard that tried to overtake a vehicle that was obviously driven by a retard who clearly hadn't seen them?

miloking

7th November 2010, 23:01

Would it be the retard who pulled out without looking or the retard that tried to overtake a vehicle that was obviously driven by a retard who clearly hadn't seen them?

Both...equally..

...but just ask yourself who has fucked up honda & busted leg right now and probably wont ride much this summer and who has a dent on a door and story about one of those "stupid" motorcyclists to tell over dinner?

Phreak

7th November 2010, 23:20

TOTO

7th November 2010, 23:37

cheers for letting us know freak

NONONO

8th November 2010, 05:20

Jeez Scott.............:shit:
Glad you're OK,....What a pisser mate.
Get it back together and be ready for the next ride mate.
The world needs more Life Guards who polish their helmets in public.
Don't worry bout the knockers, knockers knock, bikers ride, and accidents (by definition) happen.

kave

8th November 2010, 06:09

Still not quite sure how I'm at fault here - he pulled out RIGHT in front of me, I barely had time to react, and pull to the right to ride around him, before he decided to pull into the driveway on the right... Can someone explain to me what I should have done? Bearing in mind that it all happened in a split second... Sure, I could have hit the brakes as soon as I saw him pulling out in front of me, and still probably hit him (my front wheel to his rear bumper), or, how was trying to move around him wrong when the escape route (other side of the road) was clear? In my mind I did the right thing, moving into the escape route, but unfortunately he closed that option on me after I was already dedicated to it...

For what it's worth, I do take all theories into mind, I don't just say "Nah, you weren't there mate", cause I know it has happened to other riders before. Feel free to give me examples of what I should have done.

I'm interested in what Katman the self-proclaimed god of motorcycle crash avoidance suggests you should have done as well. As far as I can tell from what you have written, car pulls out in front of you, you take evasive action then car swings in front of you again, cutting you off. I would have been stuffed in that situation.

Hope you are back up and riding soon, and that the prick who knocked you off gets suitably disciplined.

yungatart

8th November 2010, 06:50

Bugger, mate! Not nice to hear...glad you are okay (ish).

So all that polish really doesn't help it slide easier, then?:blink:

Sorry, shouldn't be so flippant....lovely to meet you!

Quasi

8th November 2010, 07:14

I'm interested in what Katman the self-proclaimed god of motorcycle crash avoidance suggests you should have done as well. As far as I can tell from what you have written, car pulls out in front of you, you take evasive action then car swings in front of you again, cutting you off. I would have been stuffed in that situation.

he will say - as per has comments on another thread on exactly this same type of collision, that the rider should have have been watching the cars wheels, noticed it was going to turn in front of him, and backed off. He will also say (prob already has), that the rider could/should have totally avoided the accident, and therefore should accept responsibility for it ever occurring.
Katman is a legend(ary fuckwit):facepalm:

I am still waiting for him to comment on the guy who posted about getting taking out by a rider behind him. What great words of wisdom would you proclaim on this type of accident Katman?? Yah been a bit quiet on this one

Fatt Max

8th November 2010, 07:14

Jeez Scott.............:shit:
Don't worry bout the knockers, knockers knock,.

Too fucking right sweetheart,

I love knocking knockers meeself.....even have a set of me own to waggle.........oooohhhhhh

ynot slow

8th November 2010, 07:19

Sure Katman is blunt,and too often we hear of crashes which were avoidable,and bikers fault,but apart from seeing if you can see yourself in wing mirrors as well as rear view mirror not much else you could do.Also if you can see your bike in mirrors,unless the driver looks(remember road code says every 3 seconds)in mirrors(all 3)you are on a hiding to nothing.

NONONO

8th November 2010, 07:26

Too fucking right sweetheart,

I love knocking knockers meeself.....even have a set of me own to waggle.........oooohhhhhh

Yes you do old son, and PLEASE!!!!!put some pants on before you open the door to strangers.

Luckylegs

8th November 2010, 07:30

What is RIGHT in front? How many metres are we talking? You said your other option would have been to hit his bumper. That implies he had time to pull right out and straighten (somewhat) into the lane that takes a certain amount of time meaning you had some room. I would have expected you would have hit his drivers door or rear panel (ironically you did anyway) if he pulled straight out In front of you?

EDIT: FWIW, I guess my definition of right in front, is that I have essentially entered the intersection before the other vehicle moves

EDIT AGAIN! The above aside, sh*t does happen, glad your relatively ok and hopefully your pride and joy can be restored or replaced appropriately

MSTRS

8th November 2010, 07:55

Bugger! Shame to see such a nice little bike all grazed and bent. Somehow, the nicer they are/were, the worse that seems. Yet, for most of us, our bike is our pride and joy, no matter what others may think of it. So I feel for you, having to see your bike like this.
Now - I wasn't there, so don't know how much reaction room you had. Therefore I can't say you should have gone right, left, braked, something else. Short of lying your bike down (never do that as a viable option), your choice/s were to brake or dodge left or dodge right. Better still, brake and dodge together. Your bike would slow very quickly, if starting at 40ish kph, so you should have been hard on the brakes from the moment that car pulled out of the side street. The escape route is your second line of defence. We are 'trained' not to undertake, so going right is a more natural choice. Normally this would have worked. You got caught by what would usually be a rare occurrence. Bad luck.
Good you have reported this to the police. But make sure they have all the details, distances, speeds, etc. Hopefully those details will put the fault at the car driver's feet. Otherwise, as the following vehicle, you are responsible.
Fingers crossed it works out for you.

Phreak

8th November 2010, 08:49

miloking

8th November 2010, 08:59

The shit thing about it is that my Rego is on hold (I refuse to pay exorbitant ACC levies...) so insurance isn't gonna happen. Oh well, looks like I'm off the road for a bit.

Just lucky I'm pretty much okay, I guess.

it will happen, rego on hold didnt cause the accident...call the insurance and ask...

scumdog

8th November 2010, 09:02

The shit thing about it is that my Rego is on hold (I refuse to pay exorbitant ACC levies...) so insurance isn't gonna happen. ..

Why couldn't you claim insurance?

Contact your company and check if lack of rego will affect a claim - AND it's the other guys insurance that will be paying. (IF he has any).

Katman

8th November 2010, 09:46

Would it be the retard who pulled out without looking or the retard that tried to overtake a vehicle that was obviously driven by a retard who clearly hadn't seen them?

Depends on who you believe.

He reckons he saw me, and that I was ages away, but I say he didn't see me (the sun was behind me...)

Care to give us the address of the kindergarten? I'd be interested to look at the placement on google maps. The sun sets at 8.00pm at the moment - at 5.50 it would hardly be considered "behind you".

Spazman727

8th November 2010, 09:53

I'm pretty sure your vehicle has to be road worthy (and having no rego technically means its not allowed on the road) for your insurance to pay out, the bastards try to get out of paying any way they can. Bad luck mate. From what you say it seems like its the other guys fault, except It sounds like you were on the wrong side of the road when you hit him.
Bad luck mate, I'm glad you're ok, and I hope that the other guy has to pay up.

imdying

8th November 2010, 10:52

Don't go to the hospital if you're not paying for it.

Swoop

8th November 2010, 11:04

Now - I wasn't there, so don't know how much reaction room you had. Therefore I can't say you should have gone right, left, braked, something else. Short of lying your bike down (never do that as a viable option), your choice/s were to brake or dodge left or dodge right. Better still, brake and dodge together. Your bike would slow very quickly, if starting at 40ish kph, so you should have been hard on the brakes from the moment that car pulled out of the side street. The escape route is your second line of defence. We are 'trained' not to undertake, so going right is a more natural choice. Normally this would have worked. You got caught by what would usually be a rare occurrence. Bad luck.
Bloody hell! A mentor who can offer advice. Just a shame katman can't do the same.

my Rego is on hold (I refuse to pay exorbitant ACC levies...) so insurance isn't gonna happen.
Rubbish. A rego is not required to prevent an accident. If it was worn tyres/shitty brakes, etc, then maybe.
Also, get a decent insurer. Mine says "DON'T PAY FUCKING ACC!!!" "No rego = No worries!"

Katman

8th November 2010, 11:08

Bloody hell! A mentor who can offer advice. Just a shame katman can't do the same.

Get a posse together - go talk to MT about it.

Swoop

8th November 2010, 11:15

Get a posse together - go talk to MT about it.
Yeah, we already know you are not happy with the title.

Try and get away from your crusade occasionally and offer sensible responses to those who ask for them. People might like you a little more.

Katman

8th November 2010, 11:18

People might like you a little more.

I'm not here to be 'liked'.

Maha

8th November 2010, 11:28

The sun sets at 8.00pm at the moment - at 5.50 it would hardly be considered "behind you".

....and you would know Steve, it shines out of your arse most of the time eh?.....:sunny:

Edbear

8th November 2010, 11:28

Why couldn't you claim insurance?

Contact your company and check if lack of rego will affect a claim - AND it's the other guys insurance that will be paying. (IF he has any).

Bloody hell! A mentor who can offer advice. Just a shame katman can't do the same.

Rubbish. A rego is not required to prevent an accident. If it was worn tyres/shitty brakes, etc, then maybe.
Also, get a decent insurer. Mine says "DON'T PAY FUCKING ACC!!!" "No rego = No worries!"

There is one little detail you may be missing here. Legally, phreak's bike was not allowed to be on the road which could see him charged with not being registered. The insurance company is well within its rights, both policy and legal to turn down a claim as he was riding illegally at the time and shouldn't have been there in the first place. This may or may not affect their willingness to rpovide cover in the future as well.

If your bike is just out of rego and you can persuade the law and the insurance company that it was an honest oversight you could possibly get away with it, but to have your rego on hold is a definite no-no. :bye:

Phreak, ignore the knockers in this instance. Aside from the legal issues I've brought out, there is nothing in your posts to suggest you could have effectively avoided him.

JohnR

8th November 2010, 11:29

For what it's worth, I do take all theories into mind, I don't just say "Nah, you weren't there mate", cause I know it has happened to other riders before. Feel free to give me examples of what I should have done.

Unfortunately for the most part all you will get is "Should have done better" "Shouldn't have let it get to having to take evasive action" "Should stop at every intersection and behind every stationary vehicle, fully assess the potential for danger and then push your bike through the hazard":facepalm:
If you do not do all of these things and have a crash, you are responsible. Got it:ar15:

miloking

8th November 2010, 11:39

There is one little detail you may be missing here. Legally, phreak's bike was not allowed to be on the road which could see him charged with not being registered. The insurance company is well within its rights, both policy and legal to turn down a claim as he was riding illegally at the time and shouldn't have been there in the first place. This may or may not affect their willingness to rpovide cover in the future as well.

If your bike is just out of rego and you can persuade the law and the insurance company that it was an honest oversight you could possibly get away with it, but to have your rego on hold is a definite no-no. :bye:

Phreak, ignore the knockers in this instance. Aside from the legal issues I've brought out, there is nothing in your posts to suggest you could have effectively avoided him.

Charged by who Ed? Police wasnt there and the insurance will be hardly issuing him a $200 ticket! And even if by some miracle they could its still cheaper than the damages...
also lots of insurance companies DO NOT care about rego expired/on hold....so thats WHY i suggested call the insurance and ask, before you jump into any conclusions or take any advice from KB as a fact...

Edbear

8th November 2010, 11:51

Charged by who Ed? Police wasnt there and the insurance will be hardly issuing him a $200 ticket! And even if by some miracle they could its still cheaper than the damages...
also lots of insurance companies DO NOT care about rego expired/on hold....so thats WHY i suggested call the insurance and ask, before you jump into any conclusions or take any advice from KB as a fact...

Nothing wrong with calling them and asking, you're quite right. I was only pointing out the possible legal ramifications which we all should be aware of when we make decisions about whether we will register/warrant/insure/ride our bikes according to law or not.

Luckylegs

8th November 2010, 12:32

...Phreak, ignore the knockers in this instance. Aside from the legal issues I've brought out, there is nothing in your posts to suggest you could have effectively avoided him.

What knockers? (Other than the obvious, who is not really knocking). Ive asked a question a few posts ago (not yet answered) which may or may not make it look like Im knocking but...

Perhaps the reason there is nothing in his post to suggest anything different is that he simply hasnt posted it. (Due, Im sure in no small part to the state of mind and physical wellbeing after an accident, but nonetheless) and that a few extra facts like distance from the car when he started to pull out might all help to paint a better picture and allow the KB SCU to better decide whether it may have been aviodable and suggest how it may have been done.

Who knows, what I do know is that I have clearly been ridiculously lucky commuting in Auckland for the last few years (including both the North western carpark and Sandringham Road incl bus lanes) as Ive not once had anyone pull out, what I consider "Right in front of me".

edit: had inlcuded speed as one of the bits of info not provided when in fact it had been (sorry, now removed)

ynot slow

8th November 2010, 13:31

Actually the thread opening,to me is bugger I crashed,and this is my view of how it happened.Each and every crash will have same outcome,after all admit NO liability is what happens.

What is needed isn't the "you total idiot it was avoidable(if it was it wouldn't happen)if you were alert etc".

Seems if the op was doing a wheelie,after doing a runner from cops,all whilst doing the coro loop at 180km average,he'd be an ideal biker.

MSTRS

8th November 2010, 13:36

Seems if the op was doing a wheelie,after doing a runner from cops,all whilst doing the coro loop at 180km average,he'd be an ideal biker.

Pffft!! Over-rated...

ynot slow

8th November 2010, 13:47

Pffft!! Over-rated...

Wonder what the esteemed Katman would've thought of the two or three friggin twats we encountered Friday night,GALOPS plate especially.Driving erratically,having passenger wheel on centreline on left handers,any vehicle travelling towards her was in the shit,ok so I backed off and was relieved to get passed once out of twisty bits.

MSTRS

8th November 2010, 13:54

Wonder what the esteemed Katman would've thought of the two or three friggin twats we encountered Friday night,GALOPS plate especially.Driving erratically,having passenger wheel on centreline on left handers,any vehicle travelling towards her was in the shit,ok so I backed off and was relieved to get passed once out of twisty bits.

Prolly that drivers like that are merely there to test our abilities as responsible, crash-avoiding motorcyclists. We were. Our super-human skills (bike handling, law abiding, patience) saw us avoid the heinous carnage sought by the Audi driver, not to mention having the opportunity to give the prick the learn...

ynot slow

8th November 2010, 14:01

Prolly that drivers like that are merely there to test our abilities as responsible, crash-avoiding motorcyclists. We were. Our super-human skills (bike handling, law abiding, patience) saw us avoid the heinous carnage sought by the Audi driver, not to mention having the opportunity to give the prick the learn...

Ah I thought she was glaring at me for having a sly piss behind the tussock,then realised where I stood meant cars couldn't see me,but suv could,well until they went passed lol.

Nothing superhuman,but leaving shit loads of room,and taking the passing of her to extreme,i.e almost on far right of passing lane,incase she decided to pass an imaginary mirage.

Swoop

8th November 2010, 14:23

What is needed isn't the "you total idiot it was avoidable(if it was it wouldn't happen)if you were alert etc".

Which is interesting in this (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/130668-Thursday-misadventure.-How-to-win-a-week-in-hospital) thread.

The rider is an executive jet pilot, needing:
Awareness,
Forward thinking,
Situational awareness,
Intelligence,
Planning,
Care,
Responsibility,
Knowledge of "human factors",
Etc,
Etc.

On the day in question he:
Has his daughter on the back. Dunno about you, but with loved ones riding pillion there is a bit of extra care taken.
Both riding with appropriate safety gear.
Alert to road users.
Detects a 4x4 driver that is setting off the "suspicion-ometer".
Rides to the conditions present.
Is doing much less than the posted speed limit (avoiding the propaganda that "speed kills")...
Waits for a safe, clear stretch of road to pass.

Then gets taken out.

Dunno about being more prepared or alert, but there are those who still try.
Unfortunately.

Phreak

8th November 2010, 17:03

So, freshly back from a day in A&E, 5 or so hours lying on a stretcher with my neck in a brace, not allowed to move at all (even though I walked in there on my own two feet...) - made for a feckin' fun day...

The prognosis? 3 x-rays later, doctor tells me my spine is all good, nothing untoward detected, and my stiff neck is just a couple of pulled muscles. :-)

So, resting up for a couple of days, then back to work and looking into stripping the bike down for a full rebuild. Been wanting to powdercoat the frame anyways! Figure I'm not gonna be doing much riding this summer, bit scared off it actually, but think I can use the time to build the bike back up even better and shiny-er!

In a better mood about it all now, still gonna pinch the pocket a little bit but hey, least I'm not still in hospital with a broken neck!

Again, thanks to everyone for their kind words, might see you back out there again one day.

MSTRS

8th November 2010, 17:12

...still gonna pinch the pocket a little bit...

What's insurance for? If cops aren't charging you for anything, then it is definitely the other party's fault and they pay. Either direct, or you make a claim on your insurer who pay to fix your bike and then get the money off that other person.

NUTBAR

8th November 2010, 17:17

Maha

8th November 2010, 17:25

ok people, i followed this chap from auckland to taupo on the weekend just gone. he was one of the most carefull & curtious riders i have ridden with. he always indercated & looked out to see where the other bikers were in relation to himself before he moved to the next lane or to over take. as far as im concerned i would ride with him any day,
as for the critics re: his accident get over yourselves!
:p

Never ceases to amaze me Ian how those that were nowhere near the scene of an accident conclude all to quickley who is at fault/what the relating circumstance were and how the position of the moon and the shifting of tides can affect how your mind reacts.
I also did alot of riding with Scott over the weekend, rode with back to Auckland yesterday and not once in the entire time did I ever feel the need to critique his riding.
He would be one of a select few that I would happily ride in group situation with.

Fatt Max

8th November 2010, 17:48

Phreak

8th November 2010, 17:50

baptist

8th November 2010, 18:18

Hahaha yeah, just seen that picture... Good times! Glad I have found a few bloody good shots of the bike looking really shiny before the bin, too.

You always seem to know how to put a big ol' smile back on my face, Maxx. Cheers.

Thats the main thing, you are on your feet and can still smile:yes: Hope you can fix the bike up, when you do let me know and I will drop you off some polish and sealer (freebie) for the paintwork (used to be my business, good stuff indeed):) so you can make it all shine again.

Ratti

8th November 2010, 18:19

Im so relieved you are ok. was giggling today with Mad Duck and Nasty about riders who clean their bikes...and your name was top of the list!

At the end of the day, we take the precautions, ride to the conditions and all the rest of it- but STILL shit happens.

Take a break while the finances recover, but do consider continuing to ride if its possible. I know from experience that the confidence comes back, and in the end a close call is not the end of the world.

Hang in there dude.

Rych

8th November 2010, 18:28

That's ok, you're allowed to be bitter.

Just ask yourself though - who really is the retard here?
What the.... Someone pulling out in front of you is not always necessarily avoidable, if you weren't there to witness what happened how can you judge. From the information we have it sounds pretty unavoidable.

Car turning right at a no right turn, bike hit's car... Whether it was avoidable or not the car turned right at a no right turn on top of failing to give way to the bike. :facepalm:

Sorry to hear man, at least you're all good!

Katman

8th November 2010, 18:32

Car turning right at a no right turn, bike hit's car... Whether it was avoidable or not the car turned right at a no right turn on top of failing to give way to the bike. :facepalm:

Jesus H Christ!!! Even when the facts are spelled out in front of you, some of you still invent shit to suit your agenda. The car turned left!

There are so many holes in this story that you could sail a fucking ship through it. But you all lap it up all the same.

Patrick

8th November 2010, 18:33

Bugger... glad you didn't need yer dad on that one... You'll fix up fine.

he bike? That shit'll buff out.

That, or buy somne twink - multicoloured.... works on the companies cars.....:innocent:

Fatt Max

8th November 2010, 18:34

Jesus H Christ!!! Even when the facts are spelled out in front of you, some of you still invent shit to suit your agenda. The car turned left!

There are so many holes in this story that you could sail a fucking ship through it. But you all lap it up all the same.

Doesnt change the fact that he is a great kisser.....

Rych

8th November 2010, 18:44

Katman

8th November 2010, 18:45

I have an agenda? :blink:

Either that, or you can't read.

Rych

8th November 2010, 18:47

Either that, or you can't read.
On re-reading I see it turned "left" then "right", bike possibly hit while over taking right turning car, that could change things...

Guess depends if vehicle was indicating to turn right or not to determine fault.

Luckylegs

8th November 2010, 19:15

jonbuoy

8th November 2010, 19:19

Well, feeling mostly okay this morning, apart from a sore neck and leg. My girlfriend is coming up to take me down to A&E to get checked out. Haven't looked at the bike just yet, but been quoted about $900 for a complete new fairing set. The shit thing about it is that my Rego is on hold (I refuse to pay exorbitant ACC levies...) so insurance isn't gonna happen. Oh well, looks like I'm off the road for a bit.

Just lucky I'm pretty much okay, I guess.

:blink: Sorry to hear of your off but - does anyone else see the irony in this post??? What would be the cost of 3 X rays and five hours in a private hospital?? A lot more than your ACC levy for the past two years I expect.

Luckylegs

8th November 2010, 19:23

:blink: Anyone else see the irony in here?

Yeh, about ten minutes ago ( see post immediately preceding yours)

Edbear

8th November 2010, 19:30

Jesus H Christ!!! Even when the facts are spelled out in front of you, some of you still invent shit to suit your agenda. The car turned left!

There are so many holes in this story that you could sail a fucking ship through it. But you all lap it up all the same.

You either need glasses, reading comprehension schooling or memory training. Regardless, you're not winning yourself any credibility here.

JudaBaker

8th November 2010, 19:46

You either need glasses, reading comprehension schooling or memory training.

:blink:

At about 5:50pm, I head off, just out of my driveway, heading down the road at about 40-45 km/h, a silver four door car pulls out of a road on the left (with a no-right turn sign posted) pretty much right in front of me, to go in the same direction as me.

Whether it was avoidable or not the car turned right at a no right turn on top of failing to give way to the bike. :facepalm:

:shit:

Katman

8th November 2010, 19:47

You either need glasses, reading comprehension schooling or memory training. Regardless, you're not winning yourself any credibility here.

I have no problem with my comprehension skills. The car turned left out of the no right turn street and then turned right into the kindergarten.

And by the way folks, straight from the horse's mouth, it appears this wasn't a case of evasive action but rather an overtaking manoeuvre gone bad.

neels

8th November 2010, 19:53

Jesus, another biker down thread turned into the usual pissing match with Katman. :facepalm:

Anyway, bugger that you've had an off, and hopefully you and the bike will recover OK.

In response to the first post (the one that described the circumstances of the accident, remember that one) there may have been something you could have done, or there may not, and there's probably only about 2 seconds between the two. You're not the first person to be caught out by this and sadly you won't be the last, and it may have been avoidable. I work on the theory of self preservation, and assume that everybody else on the road is a complete moron, which reasonably often turns out to be the case. So I'll try and add something useful to the conversation.

Firstly if you see a car coming up to an intersection, assume they haven't seen you and get everything ready for a quick stop if you need to, I find these days my hand instinctively goes to the brake when I see something that's likely to cross my intended path. Secondly never assume that a car pulling to the left is pulling over or letting you past, they're probably just reading a letterbox number or texting someone and more than likely they'll pull back out just as you get beside them.

Finally, I doubt you'll find anything in your insurance policy about rego, so you should think about putting a claim in because they're in a much better position than you to argue with another insurance company. And as previously posted, you might want to think about paying your rego to give back some of the several thousand dollars you just cost ACC.

Edbear

8th November 2010, 20:35

:blink:

:shit:

I have no problem with my comprehension skills. The car turned left out of the no right turn street and then turned right into the kindergarten.

And by the way folks, straight from the horse's mouth, it appears this wasn't a case of evasive action but rather an overtaking manoeuvre gone bad.

Uhuh... :sleep:

Edbear

8th November 2010, 20:40

I have no problem with my comprehension skills. The car turned left out of the no right turn street and then turned right into the kindergarten.

And by the way folks, straight from the horse's mouth, it appears this wasn't a case of evasive action but rather an overtaking manoeuvre gone bad.

No egg on my face and thanks for the red. You've finally shot yourself in the head after shooting yourself in the foot often enough. I'll be happy to just ignore your juvenile posts from now on...

Phreak

8th November 2010, 20:48

Okay, so to reiterate the facts, now that my head is clear again, read on...

MAP: http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Manuka+Rd,+Glenfield&sll=-36.77466,174.717389&sspn=0.002621,0.004136&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Manuka+Rd,+Glenfield+0629&t=h&ll=-36.7746,174.717502&spn=0.002621,0.004136&z=18

I pull out of my driveway at approximately point "A" (I'm not about to broadcast my exact address to the world, for security reasons...) heading east (towards Glenfield Road). Accelerating normally, in a 50kph zone (with a cold bike as well, I might add!) at Eliott Ave I see the car pulling out in front of me (to travel in the same direction as me), so my natural evasive action was to pull to the right hand side of the road to go around him. I was NOT hooning or racing, I just saw that the other side of the road was clear of traffic, so I figured it would be safe to do so. Unfortunately, he pretty much immediately turned right to enter the driveway at number 22 Manuka Road, colliding with me. I spill off the bike, which slides almost into the driveway he was turning into. (I've seen the scars on the road today...)

Does that explain things for everyone?

Edbear

8th November 2010, 20:51

Katman

8th November 2010, 20:53

Does that explain things for everyone?

Sort of - except for the bit where you decided to overtake him instead of electing to slow down a bit and sit behind him.

Phreak

8th November 2010, 21:08

In truth, I dunno why I didn't hit the brakes. My first reaction when he pulled out in front of me was to give him room. The other side of the road was clear for as far as I could see (I specifically remember looking to make sure it was) so I did what I did.

In hindsight, it's easy to say I should have braked, but I didn't exactly have time to sit there and decide "Should I brake...? Or should I just go around him? Nah, there isn't any traffic coming, so I'll avoid possibly losing control of my bike by locking up the back tyre, or pulling a really cool looking stoppie (which I've never done before, by the way), and just move to the right so I can avoid the guy..."

It was more like "Fuck, car, nothing oncoming, moving over!"

You get the point?

Katman

8th November 2010, 21:10

You get the point?

Not really. It just sounds like you're getting desperate now.

Phreak

8th November 2010, 21:14

Seriously? Okay, fine. You weren't there. So fuck off.

Edit: Like I'm not upset enough already without you being all fucking 'He-Man' and you coulda done so much better... (Sorry Moderators for the language...)

Katman

8th November 2010, 21:17

Seriously? Okay, fine. You weren't there. So fuck off.

As has been said then - I hope you paid the bill for the x-rays out of your own pocket.

Luckylegs

8th November 2010, 21:20

Phreak

8th November 2010, 21:23

JudaBaker

8th November 2010, 21:48

Well it does for those of us who can read and understand simple English, not sure about everyone... :innocent:

I'm still confused as to where it says the driver turned right at a no right-turn sign, which is what Rych was complaining about (thus the reply which brought on yours).

I honestly can't see it.. Your English must be far superior to mine. :not:

To the OP:

It's pretty scary how vulnerable you can be on a bike when the people movers come straight at you eh. Be careful out there.

swbarnett

9th November 2010, 01:31

And by the way folks, straight from the horse's mouth, it appears this wasn't a case of evasive action but rather an overtaking manoeuvre gone bad.
The way I read it the "overtaking manoeuvre" was the evasive action.

yungatart

9th November 2010, 06:52

Glad you went and got checked out Phreak!
Such a bummer about your bike though.

I'm sure that over the coming days/weeks you will analyse this incident with a view to thinking of what else you could have done, that would have given you a different outcome. (I know I did after my bin).

Do you ever practice emergency braking?

Luckylegs

9th November 2010, 07:09

In all honesty, I couldn't exactly tell you. I'm pretty sure I had gone through the pedestrian crossing when I saw the car pulling out of Eliott Ave, but couldn't be 100% sure. It all happened so quick. Sorry.

meh, dont be sorry, thanks for answering the question, I was generally interested as its an often used term but I often wondered what people perception of it is. Its fair to say, I have my opinion, and it may or may not be popular but either way I aint going to bother posting it as a. I wasnt there and b. It doesnt really matter.

What is important, is that you mend, your bike gets restored/replaced and you get back on the road :scooter:

shrub

9th November 2010, 07:22

Katman

9th November 2010, 07:33

and b. It doesnt really matter.

What does matter though is that we stop coming up with bullshit excuses in order to dump our own blame onto someone else. It's that sort of mentality that has contributed to the adverse reaction that a large slice of society has towards motorcyclists.

Katman

9th November 2010, 07:36

The car driver didn't look before he turned and drove erratically, it seems pretty clear to me but katman's fear of motorcycling knows no limits and as far as he's concerned all crashes involving a motorcycle are the rider's fault. (I wonder if he's a friend of Nic Smith?).

But yeah, you could have avoided it if you had;

1. Stopped the moment you saw the car and waited for them to vacate the road before proceeding.
2. Been a mind reader or flagged the car down and asked what they wanted to do
3. Had a man with a red flag walking in front of you and travelled no faster than 4 mph

So I guess Katman is right - ultimately it's your fault for riding one of those horrid, dangerous motorbicycles. If you insist on being a motorcyclist I suggest you buy some clunky old classic that you can keep in the shed while you drive a nice, safe Volvo.

Go to google street view and place yourself at the pedestrian crossing on Manuka Road facing Elliott Ave and see how much room there is. The kindergarten driveway is about a further 15 metres beyond Elliott Ave. If you couldn't safely brake in that distance you shouldn't be on a bike.

It seems fairly obvious to me there was no "evasive action" but rather a "fuck you cager, I'll show you" manoeuvre.

shrub

9th November 2010, 07:51

Go to google street view and place yourself at the pedestrian crossing on Manuka Road facing Eliot Street and see how much room there is. The kindergarten driveway is about a further 15 metres beyond Eliot Street. If you couldn't safely brake in that distance you shouldn't be on a bike.

It seems fairly obvious to me there was no "evasive action" but rather a "fuck you cager, I'll show you" manoeuvre.

15 metres huh?

OK, 50 kmh is around 15m per second, so he had one second to react and stop. I'd like to see you do that, even on a modern sports bike. Like I said, avoidable if he had a man walking in front of him with a red flag, but in the real world (where the rest of us ride those nasty, dangerous bikes) pretty fricking hard.

shrub

9th November 2010, 07:52

What does matter though is that we stop coming up with bullshit excuses in order to dump our own blame onto someone else. It's that sort of mentality that has contributed to the adverse reaction that a large slice of society has towards motorcyclists.

I give in. All motorcycle crashes are the sole fault of the rider, best we ban the things. Happy now?

Katman

9th November 2010, 07:54

15 metres huh?

OK, 50 kmh is around 15m per second, so he had one second to react and stop. I'd like to see you do that, even on a modern sports bike. Like I said, avoidable if he had a man walking in front of him with a red flag, but in the real world (where the rest of us ride those nasty, dangerous bikes) pretty fricking hard.

Are you being deliberately stupid?

Add the 15 metres to the distance back to the pedestrian crossing which was about where Phreak first saw the car making their turn onto Manuka Road.

shrub

9th November 2010, 07:58

Are you being deliberately stupid?

Add the 15 metres to the distance back to the pedestrian crossing which was about where Phreak first saw the car making their turn onto Manuka Road.

I can't be arsed poring over google maps and don't know the area (comes of living in another city) - so how much distance did he have to stop in if not 15m?

Phreak

9th November 2010, 08:01

So, I have now decided to completely strip the bike down, after giving it a thorough look over yesterday to see how bad the damage it. Mostly it's just broken fairings, front and left side (yep, all of the left side), a broken gear lever, bent H-frame, broken left side air tunnel, indicator, and mirror. I have decided to pull everything off, taking pictures as I go, to make sure there wasn't any further damage hidden underneath. So far, the frame seems to be fine, the swingarm has a scrape but isn't bent as far as I can tell, so I'm going to have it professionally checked. Then, I want to get the frame powdercoated black, and start putting it all back together. I have found a good supplier for a new set of Repsol fairings here in Auckland. I am now on the hunt for a set of aftermarket rearsets, as well as a few little other bits and pieces. It'll be a while before the bike is back on the road, but I want to make sure everything is 100% before it is.

Oh, and to answer your question Janet, yes I have practiced emergency braking prior to the incident. I should have hit the brakes as soon as I saw the car pulling out in front of me. Might have avoided the bin, but guess I'll never know. Thanks.

Eyegasm

9th November 2010, 08:02

15 metres huh?

OK, 50 kmh is around 15m per second, so he had one second to react and stop. I'd like to see you do that, even on a modern sports bike. Like I said, avoidable if he had a man walking in front of him with a red flag, but in the real world (where the rest of us ride those nasty, dangerous bikes) pretty fricking hard.

But Katman is the Motorcycle God! He would have spoken the secret mantra and floated over the incident without harm.

Luckylegs

9th November 2010, 08:03

I can't be arsed poring over google maps and don't know the area (comes of living in another city) - so how much distance did he have to stop in if not 15m?

Fair enough, but dont post if your gonna make sh*t up !

Edbear

9th November 2010, 08:05

I'm still confused as to where it says the driver turned right at a no right-turn sign, which is what Rych was complaining about (thus the reply which brought on yours).

I honestly can't see it.. Your English must be far superior to mine. :not:
To the OP:

It's pretty scary how vulnerable you can be on a bike when the people movers come straight at you eh. Be careful out there.

That's obviously a misunderstanding between us. I wasn't referring to Rych's post and had wondered if the right turn across Phreak's path was illegal or not. It appeared from yours and Katman's post that it was the left turn that caused the problem when in fact it was the right turn across his path. He'd avoided the sudden pulling out in front of him by veering around the car as there was no oncoming traffic and in the instant he had to decide, seemed the safer option than attempting a panic stop.

My main beef with Katman is his steadfast refusal to acknowledge he wasn't there, does not know how close Phreak was and judges Phreak as at fault. He doesn't know Phreak or how careful, (or not), a rider he is, yet is happy to adversely judge others in absentia, automatically assuming the rider was at fault for not being able to avoid the accident. His attitude is juvenile, judgmental and arrogant. He obviously places himself as superior to others, even those as experienced as Terbang, and seems incapable of compassion or empathy, or even of recognising he wasn't there to make any kind of objective assessment based on eyewitness view.

spookytooth

9th November 2010, 08:09

Fair enough, but dont post if your gonna make sh*t up !

That would cut the posts to read on kb by 3/4 if every one stuck to that rule :)

Phreak

9th November 2010, 08:10

Thanks Edbear, nice to know someone out there gets what happened.

I'm not going mad after all...

shrub

9th November 2010, 08:13

Fair enough, but dont post if your gonna make sh*t up !

I didn't make anything up. 50 kmh is 15 metres per second and I read "The kindergarten driveway is about a further 15 metres beyond Elliott Ave. If you couldn't safely brake in that distance you shouldn't be on a bike." The distance cited was 15 metres, so it's logical to assume that the distance under discussion is 15 metres.

I have no idea where Elliott Ave is and if Katman really wanted to prove how clever he was he should have specified the total distance. Do you know how far it is from the pedestrian crossing on Lakeview Terrace to the dairy? Could you stop in that distance?

MSTRS

9th November 2010, 08:13

Looking at the map/street view...there is plenty of room between the crossing and Elliott Ave. A bike right by the crossing would have tons of braking time, and a vehicle coming out of Elliott Ave would rightly believe they had no need to give way. This is assuming that the bike (or straight through vehicle) wasn't speeding.
I make no such assumptions about Phreak in that regard. He appears to be a very sensible young man, who unfortunately chose the wrong response in this case. I'm sorry, mate, but if you were anywhere near that crossing, then going around the car should not have even been an option.

Hey! Hold the bus. It might even be my fault....
I was talking to him last w/e about the theory behind riding smooth. As part of that 'lesson', I told him the engine was for controlling speed, and the brakes are for stopping or emergency slowing.

Luckylegs

9th November 2010, 08:20

...a further 15 metres beyond Elliott Ave......

:facepalm: The bold'd text really should've given it away

Phreak

9th November 2010, 08:28

As previously stated, I cannot remember where I was exactly when I saw the car coming out of Eliott Ave, but I am pretty sure I had passed through the pedestrian crossing...

And no, it's not your fault MSTRS, I completely understood the point you were making about smooth riding and using the engine to control speed. Thanks though.

Katman

9th November 2010, 08:29

:facepalm: The bold'd text really should've given it away

Shrub's not too good with letters or numbers.

and if Katman really wanted to prove how clever he was he should have specified the total distance.

8 lbs 12 oz.

That looks like fun

9th November 2010, 09:37

There are those in life who believe that every incident/accident is "totally" avoidable. Some go to management school and are taught this, others just grow up believing it. They love to find the "root cause" of the accident because they know it will always be human error as defined by their logic. :woohoo: So around we the great unwashed rabble they built their systems and procedures to protect us from ourselves :yes: However invariably we fail to follow correctly the precise wording of some procedure (had a button undone on Hi-Vis jacket directly causing accident :facepalm:) so they stand a little taller on the soapbox and bang the drum a little louder because eventually the peasants will realize that it is all for their own good :angry:
At a tool box meeting I attended one fine morning a fellow "perfect" driver stood on his hind legs and informed the boss that it was time he made an example of some of the plebs as there were to many small incidents occurring!!! :spanking: He then drove out of the yard and straight into the side of a locomotive :laugh: Took the windscreen wipers off and caused him to defecate :rofl:
Do I accept what katman says to be true? yes :yes: I accept it as a truth, however I prefer to deal with reality. The world is not perfect nor am I :shit:
Its always nice too hear kids enjoying themselves, but after a while it gets really annoying listening to that tin drum they are banging on. So like a certain Chinese man says
Make your point, and walk away :love:

That looks like fun

9th November 2010, 11:05

The answer is to become part of the solution, the danger is in becoming a part of the problem :love:

Swoop

9th November 2010, 12:42

There are those in life who believe that every incident/accident is "totally" avoidable.
Called "OSH" representatives, (iirc).:facepalm:

shrub

9th November 2010, 13:40

My main beef with Katman is his steadfast refusal to acknowledge he wasn't there, does not know how close Phreak was and judges Phreak as at fault. He doesn't know Phreak or how careful, (or not), a rider he is, yet is happy to adversely judge others in absentia, automatically assuming the rider was at fault for not being able to avoid the accident. His attitude is juvenile, judgmental and arrogant. He obviously places himself as superior to others, even those as experienced as Terbang, and seems incapable of compassion or empathy, or even of recognising he wasn't there to make any kind of objective assessment based on eyewitness view.

Precisely. As I see it, a car pulled out in front of Phreak and he made a judgement call that would have been fine if the car driver hadn't then (stupidly) decided to do a right turn. I don't know Phreak, but he sounds like a guy who loves his bike, is reasonably new to riding and is doing everything right, including getting training. He had a crash, and despite knowing nothing about the event katman decides to crucify him. Maybe if he had been as good a rider as Katman claims tlo be, he would have been fine, but I doubt any of us are as good as Katman claims to be.

Where the hell is the "Bad luck mate, glad you're not hurt and I hope this doesn't put you off riding"?

Luckylegs

9th November 2010, 13:46

Precisely. As I see it, a car pulled out in front of Phreak and he made a judgement call that would have been fine if the car driver hadn't then (stupidly) decided to do a right turn. I don't know Phreak, but he sounds like a guy who loves his bike, is reasonably new to riding and is doing everything right, including getting training. He had a crash, and despite knowing nothing about the event katman decides to crucify him. Maybe if he had been as good a rider as Katman claims tlo be, he would have been fine, but I doubt any of us are as good as Katman claims to be.

Where the hell is the "Bad luck mate, glad you're not hurt and I hope this doesn't put you off riding"?

I HATE YOU FOR TURNING ME INTO KATMAN, BUT!!!!!!!

What your now saying, is that, when making a right turn on a sngle lane road, I am now obligated to ensure I'm not being overtaken at the same time ????, or that someone is not driving the wrong way up the lane im crossing. Sorry, this may be an accident, but to keep repeatedly blaming the car when it looks less and and less likely they were COMPLETELY (Emphasised to aid with your comprehension) at fault is just bizarre!

And, despite this, I believe I have offered Phreak the "Bad luck mate etc etc etc bit".

Fatt Max

9th November 2010, 13:54

yeah yeah yeah, blah blah blah,

Look, I made a point earlier and noone seems to care,

Is it just me that thinks he is a great kisser....??

Edbear

9th November 2010, 14:01

yeah yeah yeah, blah blah blah,

Look, I made a point earlier and noone seems to care,

Is it just me that thinks he is a great kisser....??

Well, I could hardly comment as for myself, but how many other blokes have ambushed him and pashed him..? :blink:

baptist

9th November 2010, 14:02

Luckylegs

9th November 2010, 14:03

yeah yeah yeah, blah blah blah,

Look, I made a point earlier and noone seems to care,

Is it just me that thinks he is a great kisser....??

Outside the dairy in morrinsville.... We heard ya ! we're just jealous!!!

baptist

9th November 2010, 14:03

Well, I could hardly comment as for myself, but how many other blokes have ambushed him and pashed him..? :blink:

Hopefully he is on his own on that score:sick:

shrub

9th November 2010, 14:11

I HATE YOU FOR TURNING ME INTO KATMAN, BUT!!!!!!!

What your now saying, is that, when making a right turn on a sngle lane road, I am now obligated to ensure I'm not being overtaken at the same time ????, or that someone is not driving the wrong way up the lane im crossing. Sorry, this may be an accident, but to keep repeatedly blaming the car when it looks less and and less likely they were COMPLETELY (Emphasised to aid with your comprehension) at fault is just bizarre!

And, despite this, I believe I have offered Phreak the "Bad luck mate etc etc etc bit".

You and I weren't there, but from reading Phreak's initial post I believe the car driver pulled out of a side road in front of Phreak and then did a U turn in front of him. i have been taught that when you pull out of a road/driveway/parking place you ALWAYS (caps to aid your comprehension) check that NOTHING is coming. If there is, you let them go past and then pull out. What if Phreak had been driving a 40 tonne truck instead of a motorcycle?

And when you do a U turn/change lanes/right turn you ALWAYS check in ALL of your mirrors and if possible do a quick head check. If there is another vehicle overtaking you, then YOU DON'T TURN. Again, what if Phreak had been driving a truck?

Like I said, I wasn't there, but I would describe the car driver's actions as, at best, a little sloppy and inattentive. I know that the modern PC way is to blame all crashes on the rider, but based on what I have read, in this case I think Phreak is not at fault.

Edbear

9th November 2010, 14:16

Are you not supposed to check your mirror / look over your shoulder and signal for three seconds (or as long as you have if the turnings are close) before any turning manouver? did the car driver do this I wonder? if he did maybe he would have seen the bike he had just pulled out in front of.

Some here tend to miss the obvious... They'd prefer to blame the victim to promote themselves. Any blame lies firmly with the car driver in this instance and I'm happy to accept Phreak's account of the incident. Sometimes accidents happen despite the care and caution we use when riding, ie: Terbang's, mine and other's.

I bet Katman could find a way that I was at fault in my accident as well despite the SCU's thorough investigation and conclusion I was in no way to blame for it. :yes: Sure I could have avoided it, I could have taken another route that day, I could have been doing 25km/h instead of 45km/h in a 50km/h area, I could have chosen to drive a 4 x 4 with permanent 4-wheel drive, not that I could afford one...:bye: Goodness the things I could have and should have done to avoid crashing and breaking my back... :shit: I obviously don't deserve a licence! :facepalm: Even if it's my first accident in 40 years... :blink:

Luckylegs

9th November 2010, 14:17

shrub

9th November 2010, 14:18

I bet Katman could find a way that I was at fault in my accident as well despite the SCU's thorough investigation and conclusion I was in no way to blame for it. :yes: Sure I could have avoided it, I could have taken another route that day, I could have been doing 25km/h instead of 45km/h in a 50km/h area, I could have chosen to drive a 4 x 4 with permanent 4-wheel drive, not that I could afford one...:bye: Goodness the things I could have and should have done to avoid crashing and breaking my back... :shit: I obviously don't deserve a licence! :facepalm: Even if it's my first accident in 40 years... :blink:

Did you not think to have a man walking in front of you with a red flag? Entirely your fault.

shrub

9th November 2010, 14:20

To turn into a driveway !!!! NOPE, don't think so. I certainly dont do it on either the bike or in the car.

Yeah, checking in mirrors is overrated. In fact, looking is overrated and I reckon the way forward is to drive with your eyes closed. Guaranteed a laugh a minute.:yes:

Luckylegs

9th November 2010, 14:20

...And when you do a U turn/change lanes/right turn you ALWAYS check in ALL of your mirrors and if possible do a quick head check. If there is another vehicle overtaking you, then YOU DON'T TURN. Again, what if Phreak had been driving a truck?...

We're simply never gonna agree and lets leave it at that, but... are you telling me you do a head check and or check your mirror (the right one) when pulling into a driveway (on your right)???

Katman

9th November 2010, 14:21

I was going to say I'll be interested in hearing the police report but then remembered this post...
Bugger... glad you didn't need yer dad on that one...
.....and find myself wondering whether Phreak's dad is a police officer - in which case there will probably (conveniently) not be a police report.

MSTRS

9th November 2010, 14:21

...but based on what I have read, in this case I think Phreak is not at fault.

On balance, I'd tend to agree. But looking at Streetview of the area, he would appear to bear some of the responsibility.
Again, not being there at that precise moment, and without accurate measurements/speed/etc, means we can but guess as to whether braking was a better option than going around.

Edbear

9th November 2010, 14:22

Did you not think to have a man walking in front of you with a red flag? Entirely your fault.

Of course you are quite right! He would have seen the oil and warned me! :sunny: Darn it! just when I was thinking I'd got away with it! :angry:

shrub

9th November 2010, 14:27

We're simply never gonna agree and lets leave it at that, but... are you telling me you do a head check and or check your mirror (the right one) when pulling into a driveway (on your right)???

Yep. It's called defensive driving. I also look before I pull out - yeah I know, weird and strange, but it's kept me alive for many years.

i might try your driving without checking mirrors though, but I'll wait until i have a Hummer or something similar as I'm not that fussed on being dead - at least until my rego runs out.

Katman

9th November 2010, 14:30

Yep. It's called defensive driving.

Funny how selective you can be when it comes to defensive driving/riding.

MSTRS

9th November 2010, 14:31

Oh, to have a little man, walking in front, waving a red flag. Kanga would still be alive. And his mate Brendan would still have his spleen. (Oil on SH5 21.2.09).
Better still, no-one would need to take any responsibility for their driving/riding, and when it turns to custard, the flagman can carry the blame. Mustn't forget - the dickhead/s who dropped the oil needn't have a care in the world either.

Katman

9th November 2010, 14:38

Oh, to have a little man, walking in front, waving a red flag. Kanga would still be alive. And his mate Brendan would still have his spleen. (Oil on SH5 21.2.09).

Just on that note John, I have a customer who was passed by a group of motorcyclists on the Napier/Taupo road that night who immediately turned to his passenger and said "There's an accident waiting to happen".

Maha

9th November 2010, 14:42

Thanks Edbear, nice to know someone out there gets what happened.

I'm not going mad after all...

Accidents are called accidents because they are accidents Scott, if two vehicles collide, it is not not called an 'On Purpose'.... for good reason. Im sure most get that.
Hindsight can be a good thing in that, we learn from it. The pity is though, 30 seconds either way and your bike would still be in good shape.

shrub

9th November 2010, 14:44

Funny how selective you can be when it comes to defensive driving/riding.

Defensive driving/riding is about recognising that motorcyclists aren't the only ones that do stupid shit. You may find it really hard to believe, but a lot of car drivers are incompetent idiots.

shrub

9th November 2010, 14:47

Just on that note John, I have a customer who was passed by a group of motorcyclists on the Napier/Taupo road that night who immediately turned to his passenger and said "There's an accident waiting to happen".

Bloody temporary New Zealanders. The sooner those fucking death traps are banned the better.:angry2:

Make them drive Volvos.:yes:

MSTRS

9th November 2010, 14:49

Just on that note John, I have a customer who was passed by a group of motorcyclists on the Napier/Taupo road that night who immediately turned to his passenger and said "There's an accident waiting to happen".

What are you saying? That this particular group of 4 were 'asking for it'? This was after Paeroa...how many bikers would have been heading home?

Katman

9th November 2010, 14:51

What are you saying? That this particular group of 4 were 'asking for it'? This was after Paeroa...how many bikers would have been heading home?

John, I'm sure of my facts.

I'm not saying that there was not going to be an accident that night (given the amount of oil on the road) but there is every chance that the outcome may have been considerably less severe had the group been riding in a more restrained manner.

Edbear

9th November 2010, 14:52

baptist

9th November 2010, 14:54

Did you not think to have a man walking in front of you with a red flag? Entirely your fault.

Sorry Edbear but your crash was all your fault, appart from the guy with the red flag (I think we should bring him back by law for all motorised vehicles, after all the way I ride he would not slow me down:innocent:) did you not think to install automatic sensors that deposit sand onto tthe road infront of your van tyres as soon as oil is detected... i am sure they are an optional extra!!!!!

shrub

9th November 2010, 14:55

Oh I'm sure he recognises that, it's just that if one of these incompetents takes out a biker, it's the biker's fault... :yes:

Well said! I remember when we looked out for each other and the biker was right until proven otherwise, now it seems it's the other way round. Bloody political correctness...

mashman

9th November 2010, 14:56

Defensive driving/riding is about recognising that motorcyclists aren't the only ones that do stupid shit. You may find it really hard to believe, but a lot of car drivers are incompetent idiots.

According to here (http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motor-Vehicle-Crashes-in-New-Zealand-2009.pdf) i'd be looking at cars containing the idiots, more so than motorcyclists.

During the 2009 calendar year there were:

* 337 fatal road crashes
* 10,788 injury crashes
* 384 casualty deaths
* 14,541 casualty injuries

(following figures from page 21)

TYPE OF ROAD USER INJURED YEAR ENDING 31 DECEMBER 2009:

Cars/passengers - 11287

As a percentage of total injuries (14,541). Car/passengers make up %77.62 of the total injuries... Oh yeah, and the costs too :)

MSTRS

9th November 2010, 14:57

John, I'm sure of my facts.

I'm not saying that there was not going to be an accident that night (given the amount of oil on the road) but there is every chance that the outcome may have been considerably less severe had the group been riding in a more restrained manner.

We came on the accident scene about 10 minutes after it happened. We were also returning from Paeroa. We were in the car, and we were on cruise control at 108kph. NO - repeat NO - bikes passed us along the plains. So you'd best be revisiting your 'facts'

shrub

9th November 2010, 14:59

* 10,788 injury crashes

All caused by motorcyclists i'll bet!:shit:

Edbear

9th November 2010, 15:00

Sorry Edbear but your crash was all your fault, appart from the guy with the red flag (I think we should bring him back by law for all motorised vehicles, after all the way I ride he would not slow me down:innocent:) did you not think to install automatic sensors that deposit sand onto tthe road infront of your van tyres as soon as oil is detected... i am sure they are an optional extra!!!!!

Hey of course! How stoopid of me. Now why didn't Scott have automatic Stebels that blasted at drivers who suddenly pull across in front of him and a front "nerf bar" to absorb the impact and trainer wheels to keep the bike upright? Then he should have been riding the latest GoldWing with the airbag as well... How wrong can a rider be..? :innocent:

yungatart

9th November 2010, 15:07

Phreak

9th November 2010, 15:28

Katman

9th November 2010, 15:33

FWIW, I'm seriously considering upgrading my little 'beep beep' horn to an almighty 'BROAR! BROAR!' industrial sized feckin truck horn when I put the bike back together... You reckon that would have alerted the car driver that I was there...?

If you forgot to use your brakes it's unlikely you'd remember to use you horn.

Edbear

9th November 2010, 15:35

FWIW, I'm seriously considering upgrading my little 'beep beep' horn to an almighty 'BROAR! BROAR!' industrial sized feckin truck horn when I put the bike back together... You reckon that would have alerted the car driver that I was there...?

It's worth a shot, mate! I've found the standard horn on mine adequate so far and I've been more inclined to use it lately as well. I think a big cruiser with the extra lights helps to be seen, too...

scumdog

9th November 2010, 15:37

If you forgot to use your brakes it's unlikely you'd remember to use you horn.

What he said.

IF the car had just pulled out when you were close causing you to brake fairly firmly you might also have had time to 'tootle your horn with vigour'.

Given the incident was a 'right-now' fiasco I too doubt you would have had the time/presence of mind to both brake severely, veer to one side AND use the horn.:oi-grr:

However there might be other times later on where it COULD be handy.

Mom

9th November 2010, 15:49

FWIW, I'm seriously considering upgrading my little 'beep beep' horn to an almighty 'BROAR! BROAR!' industrial sized feckin truck horn when I put the bike back together... You reckon that would have alerted the car driver that I was there...?

You can have Maha's special horn when you bike is back onthe road Scott :D

That looks like fun

9th November 2010, 15:57

Just on that note John, I have a customer who was passed by a group of motorcyclists on the Napier/Taupo road that night who immediately turned to his passenger and said "There's an accident waiting to happen".

Well if he had watched the road and driven defensively instead of chatting to his passenger with a turned head he might not of run into phreak :shit: , oh hang on that was an Asian :Oops:, oops my bad as you were :facepalm:

MSTRS

9th November 2010, 16:11

I happen to know of at least one other group of four on the road that night.....

Who passed through much earlier in the evening.
Tony O'K got caught. He had raced at Paeroa and was going home in his van, bike in back. Said he passed that point around 8.30. Got all crossed up, and had no idea why, until he logged into KB the next day.
The affected group of riders would have got there about 8.35-8.40. We were the fourth car to arrive at the scene.

GOONR

9th November 2010, 16:14

I know Elliott ave, I used to live there.

It used to be a normal T junction, left / right turn. a few years ago the pavement was built up in such a way that it forced you to point to the left and a no right turn sign was put up. Many locals did not like this. Lots of people still turn right from there but more will approach the junction, not properly check oncoming traffic from the right (cause they are checking for oncoming from their left so they can U turn), turn left then pull a very swift U turn. The U turn would probably see you level with the kindergarten once you have completed it.

pzkpfw

9th November 2010, 17:16

chasio

9th November 2010, 17:32

Hmmm, how about a G-sensor like in a smart phone or wireless game controller that senses sudden and hard deceleration of the bike and automatically applies the horn for a bit?

That way if you need to "panic brake" the bike takes care of making the angry noise for you.

...able to be switched off (for "track use").

(A bit like the modification (for a car) some Kiwis came up with a few years back that automatically applies the brake light when detecting a sudden lifting of the foot off the accelerator - i.e. the brake light comes on before the foot has moved to the brake pedal, giving a little more warning time to those behind.)

I can see horn automation causing a lot of issues. Lots of people doing stupid shit just hit their brakes when they hear a horn, regardless of where they are or what is happening around them. If they were to do that in the middle of a u-turn (say because you are braking hard to lose speed and then go around) and they stop dead, your escape options will be severely restricted if they end up across both lanes.

And I must admit, I have pulled that left then right into Kindy routine (not a U-turn on the road) at that junction a handful of times, both in car & on bike (without even mildly inconveniencing any other road user, I hasten to add). I'm sure it happens quite a bit.

Sorry to hear you came to grief.

Chasio

Fatt Max

9th November 2010, 17:48

I can see horn automation causing a lot of issues

Too true, I tried to automate my horn but it didnt work out. Every time I walk past a magnet I get a hard on. Then I transplanted my willy for a cucumber, same thing happens when I walk past a salad........oh sorry, off topic.......:facepalm:

Swoop

9th November 2010, 18:52

time to 'tootle your horn with vigour'.

Given the incident was a 'right-now' fiasco I too doubt you would have had the time/presence of mind to both brake severely, veer to one side AND use the horn.:oi-grr:
Simple. Just hook the horn up to the brake microswitch. Brakes are applied and "Hey presto!" automatic melodious tootling!!!

Do I have to do all the thinking around here?:innocent:

Toaster

9th November 2010, 19:00

A1 with contacting Police, its not about getting the other guy in the shit or teaching him a lesson, its about this thing called "Insurance" ...

... I got taken out from behind once by a "fellow" :angry: biker...

Agreed, but always get police to turn up to the scene and make their judgement and confirm details of both parites and take any witness details. Vital for court and for insurance to determine an independent assessment of fault.

... did it hurt? :blink:

That looks like fun

9th November 2010, 19:18

Agreed, but always get police to turn up to the scene and make their judgement and confirm details of both parites and take any witness details. Vital for court and for insurance to determine an independent assessment of fault.

... did it hurt? :blink:

Nah, fortunately I landed on my head :woohoo:
If you have ever slid on your back along the tar-seal and felt the little stones tearing into your back protector you will then know the true worth of good gear :love:
Although my arse was a bit sore from where he tried to stick his bike up it :shit: No gear is that good :violin:

jonbuoy

9th November 2010, 19:22

Luckylegs

9th November 2010, 19:31

Yes - you don´t?? Nearly collected a cyclist in the past.

So, a cyclist was riding up the wrong side of the road?

...and no i don't, why would I

swbarnett

9th November 2010, 19:31

there is every chance that the outcome may have been considerably less severe had the group been riding in a more restrained manner.
Or not riding at all. Where does it stop?

swbarnett

9th November 2010, 19:37

Yes - you don´t?? Nearly collected a cyclist in the past.
I also check before a right turn, be it driveway or road. If I didn't I wouldn't be here today. While cycling I was just about to do a right turn (sitting just to the left of the centre line) as some dickhead overtook me at a horrendous rate. Had I not checked behind I'd have been cleaned out for sure. As it was I stopped where I was while said dickhead sailed past mere inches away without incident.

Rych

9th November 2010, 20:15

I also check before a right turn, be it driveway or road. If I didn't I wouldn't be here today. While cycling I was just about to do a right turn (sitting just to the left of the centre line) as some dickhead overtook me at a horrendous rate. Had I not checked behind I'd have been cleaned out for sure. As it was I stopped where I was while said dickhead sailed past mere inches away without incident.
Yup the exact same reason you should head check before over taking a vehicle in front because another car could be over taking you.

GOONR

9th November 2010, 20:40

Yup the exact same reason you should head check before over taking a vehicle in front because another car could be over taking you.

Head check saved my ass in that very scenario.

Had been following a truck for a while along double yellows, bit of a queue behind us. The end of the double yellows comes and the road is clear, look in the mirror, the car behind me hasn't moved so all good. I indicate to move out to overtake, head check and, yup there is a car right along side me. In one move he over took the car behind me, me and the truck. No head check would have not been a good move.

jonbuoy

9th November 2010, 21:59

So, a cyclist was riding up the wrong side of the road?

...and no i don't, why would I

I do it to avoid an accident - cyclist was on the pavement riding wrong way but I still would be at fault..
Also if you have slowed to turn right with a line of traffic behind you Mr Impatient at the back can´t see your indicators or why that fool at the front has slowed down and pulls out for an overtake.

Luckylegs

9th November 2010, 22:18

I do it to avoid an accident - cyclist was on the pavement riding wrong way but I still would be at fault..
Also if you have slowed to turn right with a line of traffic behind you Mr Impatient at the back can´t see your indicators or why that fool at the front has slowed down and pulls out for an overtake.

Hmmmmm, in my experience, spotting and avoiding cyclists on the footpath doesn't usually require the use of a wing mirror. Different strokes for different folks huh?

jonbuoy

9th November 2010, 22:32

Hmmmmm, in my experience, spotting and avoiding cyclists on the footpath doesn't usually require the use of a wing mirror. Different strokes for different folks huh?

Unless you have eyes in the back of your head how else are you going to look behind you without a head or mirror check?

Luckylegs

9th November 2010, 22:44

Unless you have eyes in the back of your head how else are you going to look behind you without a head or mirror check?

Very generally, peripheral vision. Also, in my experience the occurrence of my vehicle and a bike reaching the same driveway at the same time are very seldom and where it occurs, due to the speeds involved it only takes one vehicle to it's speed either up or down marginally and one will happily pass in front of the other.

Now, this will of course generally only occur where ive sat for a while waiting to turn, if vie driven up to said driveway Ive just passed the piece if footpath where saud bike may be and will of course have noted it when going past.

Now if I'm waiting to turn into a road on my right and someone is dumb enough to be riding up the footpath from behind me and pull out across the intersection, they can get fucked! :innocent:

Antonio

10th November 2010, 08:33

Just so everyone knows, I got home from the amazing weekend in Taupo with MAG-NZ, unloaded all my gear to get ready to head back to work (Lifeguard training night), jumped back on the bike...

At about 5:50pm, I head off, just out of my driveway, heading down .....

Hey mate,

I just saw this,
Sorry to hear that, at least happy that you are OK yourself.
Sure it sucks to see your beloved bike in this status but, this will pass like other bad things, hope insurance doesn't play up.

hope to see you riding your bike soon.

cheers

Patrick

10th November 2010, 17:12

...What your now saying, is that, when making a right turn on a sngle lane road, I am now obligated to ensure I'm not being overtaken at the same time ????, ....

Yup... just might save your life some time....

Better to be OK and in one piece than being dead right....

To turn into a driveway !!!! NOPE, don't think so. I certainly dont do it on either the bike or in the car.

Good luck doing that then....:facepalm:

We're simply never gonna agree and lets leave it at that, but... are you telling me you do a head check and or check your mirror (the right one) when pulling into a driveway (on your right)???

Now you're getting it...:woohoo:

.....and find myself wondering whether Phreak's dad is a police officer - in which case there will probably (conveniently) not be a police report.

Good try. :innocent:

FAIL.... No he aint...

I also check before a right turn, be it driveway or road. If I didn't I wouldn't be here today. While cycling I was just about to do a right turn (sitting just to the left of the centre line) as some dickhead overtook me at a horrendous rate. Had I not checked behind I'd have been cleaned out for sure. As it was I stopped where I was while said dickhead sailed past mere inches away without incident.

Re-quoted so Luckylegs might continue to keep his/hers...... anbd learn something valuable here.....

Luckylegs

10th November 2010, 17:20

Yup... just might save your life some time....

Better to be OK and in one piece than being dead right....

Good luck doing that then....:facepalm:

Now you're getting it...:woohoo:

Good try. :innocent:

FAIL.... No he aint...

Re-quoted so Luckylegs might continue to keep his/hers...... anbd learn something valuable here.....

Appreciate the thought, but actually, i'm doing fine thanks.

Actually, flippancy aside, I did give it a go today, to see if i do actually do it subconsciously, whether I do something similar and whether in fact I saw any value. I still say your wrong!

Only time will tell eh?

Katman

10th November 2010, 17:26

Berg

10th November 2010, 17:33

Ouch but glad to hear you are still in the land of the living:)

NONONO

10th November 2010, 17:41

Hey mate,

I just saw this,
Sorry to hear that, at least happy that you are OK yourself.
Sure it sucks to see your beloved bike in this status but, this will pass like other bad things, hope insurance doesn't play up.

hope to see you riding your bike soon.

cheers

Nice post Ant.......
Need to speak to you and the missus soon....

shrub

10th November 2010, 19:01

Appreciate the thought, but actually, i'm doing fine thanks.

Only time will tell eh?

I had a mate who regularly drove very pissed. He'd been doing it for years and had never had an accident, so saw no reason to do things differently. He even told me I was a pussy for walking/getting a taxi when I was pissed.

But as you say, only time will tell and he's stopped doing it. Probably because he can't drive any more because he's lost his license, has written his (expensive) car off with no insurance and is very badly messed up. Fortunately he only took out a power pole (which he paid for).

BTW, I'm glad you don't drive near where I ride.

jonbuoy

10th November 2010, 19:06

All the talk of head checks aside (and yes, I agree there may be virtue in doing so), if the right turning vehicle is following all the rules governing such a manoeuvre then the onus lies on the overtaking vehicle to do so without causing an accident.

Katman I thought you were an advocate of a riding style that avoided any kind of accident regardless of who was mostly at in the first place?? Its a bit of a contradiction to all your other posts about personal responsibility. Being legally in the right doesn´t help when an overtaking car slams into the side of you or you get tangled up in a 12 year olds BMX. Onus and responsibility won´t mend broken bones.

onearmedbandit

10th November 2010, 19:11

Katman I thought you were an advocate of avoiding accidents in the first place?? Being legally in the right doesn´t help when an overtaking car slams into the side of you or you get tangled up in a 12 year olds BMX. Onus and responsibility won´t mend broken bones.

He is advocating avoiding an accident here. To make a safe pass, be it on the track or road, it is the responsibility of the passing driver/rider to make sure it is a clean pass. And although it shouldn't, this also refers to when you are in the 'right'.

Luckylegs

10th November 2010, 19:17

I had a mate who regularly drove very pissed. He'd been doing it for years and had never had an accident, so saw no reason to do things differently. He even told me I was a pussy for walking/getting a taxi when I was pissed.

But as you say, only time will tell and he's stopped doing it. Probably because he can't drive any more because he's lost his license, has written his (expensive) car off with no insurance and is very badly messed up. Fortunately he only took out a power pole (which he paid for).

BTW, I'm glad you don't drive near where I ride.

You been reading selective posts again? You truly are a moron!

Katman

10th November 2010, 19:22

He is advocating avoiding an accident here. To make a safe pass, be it on the track or road, it is the responsibility of the passing driver/rider to make sure it is a clean pass. And although it shouldn't, this also refers to when you are in the 'right'.

I'm glad someone understands English.

Antonio

10th November 2010, 19:25

Nice post Ant.......
Need to speak to you and the missus soon....

Thanks mate,
Sure, talk to you soon.

Luckylegs

10th November 2010, 19:25

Katman I thought you were an advocate of a riding style that avoided any kind of accident regardless of who was mostly at in the first place?? Its a bit of a contradiction to all your other posts about personal responsibility. Being legally in the right doesn´t help when an overtaking car slams into the side of you or you get tangled up in a 12 year olds BMX. Onus and responsibility won´t mend broken bones.

I'm loathe to suggest your quite as thick as shrub (just yet) but FFA dude! As I explained in a previous post there are ways of not getting tangled up in a 12 year olds BMX (or hmx or Raleigh 20 or healing 10 speed) without using your wing mirror. As for the number of cars overtaking on the right while waiting to make a right turn... Maybe out on rural roads? But given this conversation came from an incident in a built up suburban environment tbh that has been my main point of reference when thinking about scenarios and what i do and and/or don't do

onearmedbandit

10th November 2010, 19:37

I missed the bit about the 12yr old on a push bike. About 14yrs ago I was riding home on my GSXR750, about 60km/h down Ferry Rd. Two school age kids were riding in the same direction I was, ahead of me. At the very last minute one of them pulled right in front of me, leaving me nowhere to go, except over him. Luckily I didn't come off, and luckily he wasn't hurt. It wasn't my fault, I wasn't to blame, but I was responsible for hitting him. And at 21 it taught me a big lesson, expect the fucking unexpected.

Since that day I have had a similar thing happen to me at least a half dozen times, in my car or on my bike, and I've been ready for each. Now when I pass a cyclist I make sure it's done in a manner that means I won't be nursing a sore ankle for a week and a child is explaining to his father what happened to his bike. Or worse.

jonbuoy

10th November 2010, 19:37

My aim and my point is that the accident could have been avoided if both people had done things differently. My aim when riding safely is to avoid any accident, regardless of who´s fault or responsibility it is. If a quick glance in my mirror or over my shoulder before pulling into a driveway or before making any turn can avoid a one in a million scenario then that's half a second well spent.

shrub

10th November 2010, 19:40

You been reading selective posts again? You truly are a moron!

You have a lovely selection of posts for me to cringe over:

The best is probably: "when making a right turn on a sngle lane road, I am now obligated to ensure I'm not being overtaken at the same time ????". In New Zealand we drive on the left and overtake on the right of the vehicle we're passing. Therefore when turning right it's a really, really good idea to look in your right mirror before you turn in case someone is overtaking (which they're entitled to do). The same goes for doing right hand U turns - people who don't look have taken a lot of bikers out over the years.

Then just to prove you don't really understand this thing called "driving", you said: "but... are you telling me you do a head check and or check your mirror (the right one) when pulling into a driveway (on your right)??? "

the answer is, yes. It's a really, really, really good idea and if you continue to make right turns without seeing the need to look in your right mirror you will take someone out. I just hope it's a big arse truck and not a motorcycle.

Might I suggest you take up catching the bus and sell your bikes before you kill yourself?

jonbuoy

10th November 2010, 19:40

I'm loathe to suggest your quite as thick as shrub (just yet) but FFA dude! As I explained in a previous post there are ways of not getting tangled up in a 12 year olds BMX (or hmx or Raleigh 20 or healing 10 speed) without using your wing mirror. As for the number of cars overtaking on the right while waiting to make a right turn... Maybe out on rural roads? But given this conversation came from an incident in a built up suburban environment tbh that has been my main point of reference when thinking about scenarios and what i do and and/or don't do

Wow, I feel so flattered. :tugger:

onearmedbandit

10th November 2010, 19:42

shrub

10th November 2010, 19:52

Exactly, Thing is, your safety is always your responsibility. And only your responsibility.

I was following a woman in an SUV down a quiet suburban street, doing around 30 kmh, and suddenly she slowed down unexpectedly with no indicators and stopped. The logical thing to do would be to have overtaken her (on her right hand side as is customary in NZ), but I know that even SUVs don't just stop for no reason, so I slowed to a crawl, and sure enough she turned right into the driveway on her right. If I had overtaken her I would have been flattened. She would have been in the wrong, but I would have been in the hospital.

I put that down to 30 odd years of riding and a healthy distrust of other road users meaning I was willing to stop even when at first glance I didn't have to. I take full responsibilty for my safety because I'm the only prick i have any control over.

Katman

10th November 2010, 20:00

Cool, I'm glad we've established that this was an avoidable accident.

Now we're just left with a motorcyclist, who can't be fucked paying an ACC levy, needing medical attention.

shrub

10th November 2010, 20:07

Cool, I'm glad we've established that this was an avoidable accident.

Now we're just left with a motorcyclist, who can't be fucked paying an ACC levy, needing medical attention.

but phreak is (I think) a young guy getting his head around the bloody complex pursuit called motorcycling. He had been at a training day upping his skill, so he's someone who knew he needed to become a better rider and he made a decision that you or I, with many years experience, may not have made - not the bold text, we may have overtaken too because neiither of us were there and neither of us can say what we would have done in a situation we know little about.

And he had an off with little damage to himself and far too much damage to his bike through (largely) the actions of another road user. The only thing he did wrong was not have 30 years experience before he got on his bike.

Katman

10th November 2010, 20:10

The only thing he did wrong was not have 30 years experience before he got on his bike.

No, the only thing he did wrong was take the "fuck you cager" attitude instead of simply using his brakes.

shrub

10th November 2010, 20:13

No, the only thing he did wrong was take the "fuck you cager" attitude instead of simply using his brakes.

Did he? I must have missed the post where he said that's what he did. I just thought he made the decision to go around instead of stop, i had no idea he had said "fuck you cager" and his overtaking manouevre was an act of aggression, so please point me to where he admitted to that rather silly decision.

jonbuoy

10th November 2010, 20:21

but phreak is (I think) a young guy getting his head around the bloody complex pursuit called motorcycling. He had been at a training day upping his skill, so he's someone who knew he needed to become a better rider and he made a decision that you or I, with many years experience, may not have made - not the bold text, we may have overtaken too because neiither of us were there and neither of us can say what we would have done in a situation we know little about.

And he had an off with little damage to himself and far too much damage to his bike through (largely) the actions of another road user. The only thing he did wrong was not have 30 years experience before he got on his bike.

No one injured only property damage lesson learnt. 16 years ago I was charged with careless driving, I was making a right hand turn into a country layby, the car behind overtook me and slammed into the side of me knocking me unconscious. I was charged with careless driving (driver and witness in car behind said I wasn´t indicating). I´m as certain as I can be I was indicating - I was knocked unconscious so I don´t remember too well much about it at all. Lesson learned - check your stern before you turn... Regardless if you think you have right of way or not.

Katman

10th November 2010, 20:21

I must have missed the post where he said that's what he did.

I'm not surprised.

You're that stupid you can barely even read the lines, let alone between them.

shrub

10th November 2010, 20:24

I'm not surprised.

You're that stupid you can barely even read the lines, let alone between them.

Quite. So which post did he say that in please.

shrub

10th November 2010, 20:25

No one injured only property damage lesson learnt. 16 years ago I was charged with careless driving, I was making a right hand turn into a country layby, the car behind overtook me and slammed into the side of me knocking me unconscious. I was charged with careless driving (driver and witness in car behind said I wasn´t indicating). I´m as certain as I can be I was indicating - I was knocked unconscious so I don´t remember too well much about it at all. Lesson learned - check your stern before you turn... Regardless if you think you have right of way or not.

So what you're saying is that you're supposed to check behind you before you make a right turn? Somebody needs to tell luckylegs before he ends up in trouble.

dipshit

10th November 2010, 20:36

Quite. So which post did he say that in please.

Ummm... so he couldn't slow his bike down from 45 km/h to avoid running into the back of a car travelling in the same direction...??? Yeah right.

Luckylegs

10th November 2010, 20:38

You have a lovely selection of posts for me to cringe over:

The best is probably: "when making a right turn on a sngle lane road, I am now obligated to ensure I'm not being overtaken at the same time ????". In New Zealand we drive on the left and overtake on the right of the vehicle we're passing. Therefore when turning right it's a really, really good idea to look in your right mirror before you turn in case someone is overtaking (which they're entitled to do). The same goes for doing right hand U turns - people who don't look have taken a lot of bikers out over the years.

We generally however move to the far right of the lane we are travelling in (IE essentially right wheels, or in the case of bikes, the RIGHT wheels on the white centre line. Before or during this we will check the state of the nation around us (incl. checking blind spots etc etc). Now, given this, anyone overtaking is doing it in the wrong lane.

Now if there is no oncoming traffic we will slow but not stop and turn into the driveway, road. Its unlikely anyone is going to overtake (on the wrong side of the road) in this stance If there is oncoming traffic obviously we'll have to come to a stop but its a safe bet no-ones going to overtake if this is the case and will either have to also come to a stop or pass on the left

Note: The caveat to this is that the turning car indicates appropriately

Then just to prove you don't really understand this thing called "driving", you said: "but... are you telling me you do a head check and or check your mirror (the right one) when pulling into a driveway (on your right)??? "

the answer is, yes. It's a really, really, really good idea and if you continue to make right turns without seeing the need to look in your right mirror you will take someone out. I just hope it's a big arse truck and not a motorcycle.

Might I suggest you take up catching the bus and sell your bikes before you kill yourself?

Nah, perhaps you should direct some of your wisdom to the person who actually had the accident.

shrub

10th November 2010, 20:41

Ummm... so he couldn't slow his bike down from 45 km/h to avoid running into the back of a car travelling in the same direction...??? Yeah right.

In other words he didn't.

Luckylegs

10th November 2010, 20:43

Quite. So which post did he say that in please.

fuckin look for yourself you lazy prick, like I did when you quoted me above from a post from yesterday sometime :love:

shrub

10th November 2010, 20:46

We generally however move to the far right of the lane we are travelling in (IE essentially right wheels, or in the case of bikes, the RIGHT wheels on the white centre line. Before or during this we will check the state of the nation around us (incl. checking blind spots etc etc). Now, given this, anyone overtaking is doing it in the wrong lane.

Now if there is no oncoming traffic we will slow but not stop and turn into the driveway, road. Its unlikely anyone is going to overtake (on the wrong side of the road) in this stance If there is oncoming traffic obviously we'll have to come to a stop but its a safe bet no-ones going to overtake if this is the case and will either have to also come to a stop or pass on the left

Note: The caveat to this is that the turning car indicates appropriately

Nah, perhaps you should direct some of your wisdom to the person who actually had the accident.

I see. So if your wheels are on the white line you don't need to look in your mirror? And how long before you make the turn is it OK to have had a look around? 1 second? 10 seconds? 1 minute?

And when overtaking, I take it you don't ever go into the opposing lane?

Been riding long?

And I'm sure phreak would love to direct some of my wisdom to the car driver.

shrub

10th November 2010, 20:47

fuckin look for yourself you lazy prick, like I did when you quoted me above from a post from yesterday sometime :love:

In other words he didn't. Thank you, you've said all you need to say.:yes:

Luckylegs

10th November 2010, 20:51

No one injured only property damage lesson learnt. 16 years ago I was charged with careless driving, I was making a right hand turn into a country layby, the car behind overtook me and slammed into the side of me knocking me unconscious. I was charged with careless driving (driver and witness in car behind said I wasn´t indicating). I´m as certain as I can be I was indicating - I was knocked unconscious so I don´t remember too well much about it at all. Lesson learned - check your stern before you turn... Regardless if you think you have right of way or not.

<SERIOUS question>... They hit you on the right hand side of the centre line? Were you stationary before turning? how far did you get through the manoever, IE TBoned or hit diagonally?

jonbuoy

10th November 2010, 20:58

<Serious question>... They hit you on the right hand side of the centre line? Were you stationary before turning? how far did you get through the manoever, IE TBoned or hit diagonally?

sorry, question(s)

Yup T boned in a cage he hit me in the drivers side door door pillar hit me on the side of the head. Not stationary at the time but not moving very quickly. I thought I was in the right didn´t even get a lawyer for making the police statement. If there was no witness it would have been a 50/50, as there was an "independant" witness to say I failed to make my intentions clear (indicate) I was at fault - careless driving points on my licence.

Luckylegs

10th November 2010, 21:04

I see. So if your wheels are on the white line you don't need to look in your mirror? And how long before you make the turn is it OK to have had a look around? 1 second? 10 seconds? 1 minute?

And when overtaking, I take it you don't ever go into the opposing lane?

Been riding long?

And I'm sure phreak would love to direct some of my wisdom to the car driver.

While waiting to turn: Left wing mirror, Rearview mirror, watching for activity at and around the intersection almost contantly (Just not the right mirror). Bearing (sp) in mind that my initial comment aksed about 'obligation' also not whether its a good idea.

And when overtaking... Of course I do, BUT! I dont overtake cars waiting to turn right (particularly if indicating), ive also not seen (in 18 odd years of motoring) anyone else do it.

Luckylegs

10th November 2010, 22:00

Phreak

10th November 2010, 23:35

Bloody hell but there are some morons on this forum...

Hey Katman, how about I find out where you ride regularly and pull out in front of you in my big four wheel drive, with a distance of less than 30 metres, see if you have time to stop? Bet you fricken don't. Figure you'd probably be so full of yourself that not even God himself could possibly strike you off your bike, or any other way for that matter...

What's your rego? LOL... If my Dad was a cop I'd be telling him to keep an eye out for it!

Oh, and on another note, isn't it required in a license test for the driver to be checking his mirrors roughly every five seconds...? So, if you were about to turn right into a driveway or some such idea, wouldn't you be supposed to check your mirrors either when you make the turn or within five seconds of before making the turn? AND, aren't you supposed to indicate for a minimum of three seconds before executing a turn...? Pretty sure that was the case when I sat my license... Sure as hell the driver of the car I hit didn't indicate a right turn for those three seconds!

Someone should make a book "How to stay alive on a motorcycle"... Only if I were them I definitely wouldn't be listening to some of the bullshit that flies on this forum. Meanwhile, I can proudly say that thanks to my good gear, I escaped with only bumps and bruises (not a huge bill for the ACC, as indicated by some members here), and will live to ride again. ATGATT in my opinion, you never know when you'll need it - even just out of your own driveway like I did.

For what it's worth, I wish to personally thank all the KB members that have been keeping my spirits up with kind messages, they have been greatly appreciated.

shrub

11th November 2010, 02:45

While waiting to turn: Left wing mirror, Rearview mirror, watching for activity at and around the intersection almost contantly (Just not the right mirror). Bearing (sp) in mind that my initial comment aksed about 'obligation' also not whether its a good idea.

And when overtaking... Of course I do, BUT! I dont overtake cars waiting to turn right (particularly if indicating), ive also not seen (in 18 odd years of motoring) anyone else do it.

OK, so when turning right you look in your left and rear view mirrors, but not your right mirror? Interesting approach, I'm surprised you've made 18 years, you're one lucky bastard.

shrub

11th November 2010, 07:20

Bloody hell but there are some morons on this forum.

You got it mate, you got it in one, but the sad part is the attitude of people like katman, dipshit et al. Katman has taken on a one man (plus dipshit) crusade to get motorcyclists to take more responsibility for their accidents and stop blaming car drivers for everything, and in it itself that is commendable, but they seem to have forgotten that some crashes are outside of a rider's control.

Yeah, in hindsight it would have been a better idea for you to hit the picks and stop instead of overtaking, but what indication did you have that the car driver was going to do anything other than carry on in the same direction? Or maybe even if you had been on a loud bike and had the "fuck you cager" attitude you’ve been accused of, and screamed past at full throttle he might have heard you and not turned - they do say loud pipes save lives.
Or maybe if you had stopped and had a coffee before you left home, or maybe if he had left 10 seconds earlier, or maybe if space aliens had landed in front of you or... Lots of things would have changed the outcome, but they didn't and now your pride and joy is broken; and for a biker that really sucks.

But the thing that really saddens me though is the way people immediately seemed to think it was all your fault and that you had a bad attitude, so climbed into you and that's NOT motorcycling as I know it. I'm an old fart these days, but I remember when bikers looked out for each other and if there was doubt, the benefit of that doubt went with the fellow bikers. Sure, it's all very PC to blame the biker for everything, but fuck being PC. What the hell happened to the words “biker down” meaning “one of us is down, rally round” instead of “how can we make the poor bastard feel even worse?”

And you’ve been riding around 3 years, so you don’t have the experience (yet) that might have had you hitting the picks because you had a bad feeling about things. You’re passionate about bikes and are doing everything right – ATTGATT and rider training. What the hell else do idiots like katman expect you to do? Take a magic pill and ride like Rossi? Did they not have offs when they were still building their ks? I certainly did, and unlike your off they were mostly my fault. At least you know that looking in your mirror before you turn is important.

Nuff said. It saddens me to see people turning on a young biker when he comes here to get a bit of support and encouragement after an off that wasn’t his fault.
.

Katman

11th November 2010, 07:26

Bloody hell but there are some morons on this forum...

Hey Katman, how about I find out where you ride regularly and pull out in front of you in my big four wheel drive, with a distance of less than 30 metres, see if you have time to stop?

It is a requirement for your bikes WOF that it can stop in less than 7 metres from 30kph.

If you can't stop within 30 metres from "40-45kph" then best you find yourself a safer form of transport.

shrub

11th November 2010, 07:40

best you find yourself a safer form of transport.

Ah, now I see where you're coming from. Discourage young guys from getting into bikes so when old bastards like you and I stop riding motorcycling dies.

Nice work. :yes::done:

Katman

11th November 2010, 07:47

Ah, now I see where you're coming from. Discourage young guys from getting into bikes so when old bastards like you and I stop riding motorcycling dies.

There goes your selective reading again.

Luckylegs

11th November 2010, 07:48

Yup T boned in a cage he hit me in the drivers side door door pillar hit me on the side of the head. Not stationary at the time but not moving very quickly. I thought I was in the right didn´t even get a lawyer for making the police statement. If there was no witness it would have been a 50/50, as there was an "independant" witness to say I failed to make my intentions clear (indicate) I was at fault - careless driving points on my licence.

Interesting dude, Ive been thinking about the "Rural" scenario (which like I posted earlier I hadnt really been considering when thinking about this). Im not entirely sure, but I suspect I might do it in these cases. I'll be damm sure to check next time if I do and if I aint give it a go.

Like I say though, I think I do, and the reason why (when I dont around town) is the changeability at country road speeds. Im confident in urban areas that I am aware of the situation around me and that realistically that situation will not change appreciably to warrant a final check wheres as in the country, if slowing to turning speeds and following traffic is still doing 100+ things will change much quicker.

shrub

11th November 2010, 07:51

Im confident in urban areas that I am aware of the situation around me and that realistically that situation will not change appreciably to warrant a final check wheres as in the country, if slowing to turning speeds and following traffic is still doing 100+ things will change much quicker.

Bloody hell, you really ought to get off the road before you kill yourself - or someone else. In town things change ALL THE TIME because there are hundreds of other road users all doing their own thing. In town you need to be extra, extra vigilant ALL THE TIME.

Luckylegs

11th November 2010, 07:51

...Might I suggest you take up catching the bus and sell your bikes before you kill yourself?

Ah, now I see where you're coming from. Discourage young guys from getting into bikes so when old bastards like you and I stop riding motorcycling dies.

Nice work. :yes::done:

..........

onearmedbandit

11th November 2010, 07:53

but they seem to have forgotten that some crashes are outside of a rider's control.

.

I don't think you'll find this is actually the case. Years ago when I was about 20 I started in car sales for a very successful dealer. I remember we had a meeting one day talking about conversion numbers, ie clients on yard to test drives, test drives to sales. My employer stated that it was important we remember that everyone that came onto the yard was a buyer. I, from my own vast experience of maybe 6mths, disagreed, and gave examples of people who had come onto the yard who were not buyers (I was being overly defensive). I'll never forget the look on his face. I thought long and hard about why I had upset him, and then it dawned on me. If I believe every person who walked onto the yard is a buyer I set myself up better to make the sale. It was one of the best lessons I was ever taught.

And the same can be applied to riding. Sure, not every crash is avoidable, or my fault. But...if I believe they are in the first place I have a better chance of acting correctly and therefore avoiding an accident altogether.

I may be wrong, but I believe this is a part of the message Katman is trying to send. Believe that you are responsible for everything that happens around you, and you more likely are to be.

Luckylegs

11th November 2010, 08:04

Bloody hell, you really ought to get off the road before you kill yourself - or someone else. In town things change ALL THE TIME because there are hundreds of other road users all doing their own thing. In town you need to be extra, extra vigilant ALL THE TIME.

Remember though we're talking about the sitaution where another road user is whizzing past you on right of the centre line while you are indicating and either slowing to make or waiting to make a right hand turn (To be clear: This does not mean lane change, overtake or any other time you might need to change your position on the road, JUST TURNING at an intersection or driveway).

I wont disagree there could be a one in a million type situation like what you encountered on your bike. But frankly thats akin to the "stay in gear at the lights" argument to avoid being rear ended. It kinda makes sence but is not compulsary, not everyone does it and not everyone who does doesnt is labelled as a threat on the road.

MSTRS

11th November 2010, 08:16

... He had been at a training day upping his skill... Nope. At a social get together, where the opportunity was taken to talk about some of the theory behind one particular riding style. Just a chat between 2 individuals - 1 relative newbie and 1 experienced crustie.

Bloody hell but there are some morons on this forum...
There sure are

For what it's worth, I wish to personally thank all the KB members that have been keeping my spirits up with kind messages, they have been greatly appreciated.
Support, commiseration, realism. I hope that is the message that you take from this thread. Forget those that would have you fall on your sword...

... some crashes are outside of a rider's control.

Nope. Only accidents (read: acts of god) are beyond anyone's control. There is always something that can be done to avoid a crash. Thing is, it is the choice/s made that determines the outcome. A more experienced rider may have made a better choice. Therefore avoiding a crash. Probably.

It saddens me to see people turning on a young biker when he comes here to get a bit of support and encouragement after an off that wasn’t his fault.
I agree. About the first bit. As for 'not his fault' - possibly debateable. He hasn't received a traffic ticket, so we can assume that he is not primarily at fault. But don't ignore the part he did play, in so far as making the choice of how to respond that he did.

Katman

11th November 2010, 08:36

And the same can be applied to riding. Sure, not every crash is avoidable, or my fault. But...if I believe they are in the first place I have a better chance of acting correctly and therefore avoiding an accident altogether.

I may be wrong, but I believe this is a part of the message Katman is trying to send. Believe that you are responsible for everything that happens around you, and you more likely are to be.

And the earlier that concept can be drummed into new riders the better.

I fear that by the time a rider gets to shrub's stage nothing much will change their blindness.

That looks like fun

11th November 2010, 08:58

When I was just a puppy learning to drive trucks cars and bikes I was fortunate enough to be told a good thing. Attitude is the "most" important thing.
I could approach any given situation and my attitude would determine my behaviour. Example, I could approach an intersection ready to go :woohoo: or I could approach it ready to stop :yes:
Today we as a society seem to focus on altering the behaviour and expecting the attitude to alter as a result.
If we follow this dogma (as I suspect katman does) we will achieve excellent short term results. Its the control system. If everyone did what "I" told them we would have no problems :facepalm:
Long term result is eventually people build an immunity and no longer take any responsibility for there actions, after all why should they? they were only doing what they were told.
There is little or no buy in to the system so the man on the soap box has to stand a little taller and bang his drum a little louder. Even though the message may contain some truth because of the delivery it becomes lost even resented and scorned.
My guess is (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong Phreak) that Phreak has learned a lot from this accident. He will have looked at what he could and should have done better and will be a better rider for it :scooter:
And he will have learned bugger all from this forum.

Katman

11th November 2010, 09:04

My guess is (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong Phreak) that Phreak has learned a lot from this accident. He will have looked at what he could and should have done better and will be a better rider for it :scooter:
And he will have learned bugger all from this forum.

I believe he will have learned a whole lot more from this thread than if it had just been filled with choruses of "Oh, you poor thing. Don't worry, it wasn't your fault".

neels

11th November 2010, 09:05

And the earlier that that concept can be drummed into new riders the better.
Unfortunately just telling them it was their fault and nothing else useful doesn't help much with that.

But anyway, your point (even if it is delivered badly) is correct that most accidents are avoidable in some way, there will always be some where there is no time or no options.

So I'll ask the question about a minor accident I had myself, where a van with a trailer turned across my lane while I was at a bit under 100k's around a left hander. I managed to get way with only being clipped by his bumper as I passed in front of him, with the bike still upright and the wife on the back with a sore foot. I'm pretty sure I couldn't have stood the bike up and stopped in the 30ish metres from when I saw him still in his lane to where I got hit, the van and the trailer were blocking the road other than the metre or so on the left that I sneaked through, so the question is; What could I have done to have completely avoided the accident?

MSTRS

11th November 2010, 09:08

My guess is (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong Phreak) that Phreak has learned a lot from this accident. He will have looked at what he could and should have done better and will be a better rider for it :scooter:
And he will have learned bugger all from this forum.

I'm sure he learned a lot from his experience. How many of us have had similar learning experiences.
It is my hope that he has also learned some stuff from this thread, stuff that he may not have thought of by himself.
Combining the 2 will be what makes him a better rider in future.

That looks like fun

11th November 2010, 09:11

I believe he will have learned a whole lot more from this thread than if it had just been filled with choruses of "Oh, you poor thing. Don't worry, it wasn't your fault".

Yep, those you poor things nothing you could have done are about as useful as the beatings with the "its all your fault" stick. :violin:

Every situation needs to be looked at from every contributing factor, not just one side. I accept that I only have influence other one side of an incident. :shutup:

That is why I promote working on the attitude not the action. If people buy into a system then they will choose to do what is right because they want to, not because someone told them they had too. :yes:

onearmedbandit

11th November 2010, 09:13

MSTRS

11th November 2010, 09:14

... so the question is; What could I have done to have completely avoided the accident?

Pinning the throttle would have you get to the gap while it was still big enough to get through without touching...

shrub

11th November 2010, 10:01

Nope. Only accidents (read: acts of god) are beyond anyone's control. There is always something that can be done to avoid a crash..

Probably the only way is not to ride a bike. Let me talk about 2 crashes that happened to people I know in the last few years:

1. My son was riding home on his CBX 250 and a woman coming the other way turned right across in front of him. She didn't see him and thought the thump as running something over, and she admitted she hadn't indicated either. She turned when he was around 5 metres away according to the SCU. How could he have avoided that?

2. A mate was sitting in traffic in broad daylight and a car slammed into him because the driver was distracted by a child in the back seat and hadn't realised the traffic in front of her had stopped. He had seen her coming in his mirrors (good things to use) and had started to try and get beside the car in front of him but didn't have time. How could he have avoided that crash?

I disagree that all crashes are avoidable, and while it's important to have the skills required to avoid as many as possible blaming the rider in every case is not just counterproductive it's silly. It's also important to remember that some people don't have the experience, skill or bike to avoid a crash. Lets look at dear old Katman - he's out for a ride on his Sultana and a car pulls out in front of him. He hits the brakes, but a combination of skinny tyres and old fashioned brakes mean he also hits the car, whereas someone on a Desmoseddici with the best brakes money can buy and fat tyres, state of the art suspension etc is able to stop in the same distance. Was that Katman's fault for riding an old bike?

MSTRS

11th November 2010, 10:07

Perhaps I was a little misleading...
A crash is avoidable
An accident is not

Your examples (from the rider's perspective) are accidents. From the driver's, though, they are crashes.

Does that help?

Maha

11th November 2010, 10:10

No im confused, crash did what?

shrub

11th November 2010, 10:15

It is my hope that he has also learned some stuff from this thread, stuff that he may not have thought of by himself..

I think being attacked from all sides has probably taught him not to look for support, encouragement and guidance on KB.

Imagine if he'd been told "that's a real bugger mate, glad you're OK. The leson you can learn is that people often do unexpected shit like turn without warning or looking, so always expect the worst and in your case that car driver was in a hurry, almost certainly didn't see you, so wasn't going to look. That combination of factors is a big old red warning light so watch for them".

Nah, that's no fun. It's really hard for the "it's always the biker's fault" school yard bullies to feel self righteous with that approach.

neels

11th November 2010, 10:21

neels, not being a shit stirrer here but wasn't there already an incident at the time there. And correct me if I'm wrong but this was by the pub before Little River, the one on a blind corner on a rise?

Like I said, not trying to cast doubt on your actions or anything, but I seem to recall there was a bike race or something on at the time. And if was at that corner (and once again I could be wrong), that's a corner that I always slow down considerably for due to the pub car park being right on that bend.

Pinning the throttle would have you get to the gap while it was still big enough to get through without touching...
I was asking a serious question, and I've got two reasonable answers, interestingly one suggesting how to prevent the situation and the other how to get out of it.

But to sum it up, yes there was a bike race but it wasn't signposted, and there was an incident on the road but we hadn't got to where that was yet. I could have slowed more for the corner, but how much slower is the question, going around I could see a clear road ahead. If I had been going slower I may have been met by a completely blocked road, or I may have been able to go right as the guy about 50m behind me did, but this only worked as there was no other oncoming traffic. If I had been going faster or got on the gas sooner (because that's what I did when I saw I was pretty short of other options) I may have been past with more space.

Which kind of sums things up really, that there are any number of things you could do, but which one is right at any particular point in time? And travelling at 15/20/25 m/s it doesn't give you very long to think about it.

kiwifruit

11th November 2010, 10:23

1. My son was riding home on his CBX 250 and a woman coming the other way turned right across in front of him. She didn't see him and thought the thump as running something over, and she admitted she hadn't indicated either. She turned when he was around 5 metres away according to the SCU. How could he have avoided that?

2. A mate was sitting in traffic in broad daylight and a car slammed into him because the driver was distracted by a child in the back seat and hadn't realised the traffic in front of her had stopped. He had seen her coming in his mirrors (good things to use) and had started to try and get beside the car in front of him but didn't have time. How could he have avoided that crash?

1. By being more aware of the attitude of the "about to turn" car. It wouldn't have been coming towards him at the flow of traffic rate then turned out of the blue... there would have been signs that it was about to happen.

2. By being more aware. Sitting to the side of the traffic infront rather than behind it allowing a faster escape route.
Or lane splitting to avoid being exposed.

Phreak

11th November 2010, 10:23

I think being attacked from all sides has probably taught him not to look for support, encouragement and guidance on KB.

Yeah, little bit. Let's just say I know who to listen to and who not to.

onearmedbandit

11th November 2010, 10:29

Nah, that's no fun. It's really hard for the "it's always the biker's fault" school yard bullies to feel self righteous with that approach.

Shrub, I think you are still missing the difference between 'blame', ie fault, and 'responsibility', which in this instance does not automatically mean 'fault'. It just means taking responsibility for your actions due to the ineptitude of someone else. It's no good blaming someone else, when you are the one with the paralysed arm. I say that because in particular because when I had that accident back in '97, I was told while I was in hospital that diesel had been spilled on a few of the corners around where I crashed. I honestly don't believe that it played a part in accident, but even if it had, it would've been still me riding over it. I can't go around blaming others for something that, ultimately, was my responsibility.