Policies or just plain sour grapes?

[dogsnbikes]

Ok so I sold the bike private:woohoo:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/129388-Norman-the-Honda-manwhore?p=1129903566#post1129903566

And get this email from Trademe

Dear barry,
The following listing(s) has come to the attention of Trade Me’s customer service team:

Honda CB250RS 1983 (#329238091)

It appears the goods offered are no longer available or you have withdrawn it from the site.

When you list an item for sale on Trade Me, you should do so with the intention of selling this item through the site, and you should not advertise the goods in other venues. The reason for this is that it is very frustrating for bidders when goods are no longer available. As such auctions must be allowed to run their course and contact details can only be exchanged between the winning bidder and the seller once the auction closes.



If the item is no longer available for a legitimate reason (such as newly discovered damage) please withdraw the item through the site in the future. Please note that the withdrawal feature is only to be used in extreme circumstances. If sellers are found to be taking advantage of the withdrawal feature, their site privileges will be reviewed.

We appreciate your cooperation in this matter. For more information on our listing policies, please check out our help section:


So they missed out on the success fee for a potential Auction....

when I sell something I list in more than one place ie,KB,T&E,TM and the bike clubs I belong too Like alot off others I know .... TM is the only one that wants a listing fee and a success fee

So I sent them this reply

[In regards too my auction if there were members who were serious about buying the bike,they would have made bids on the auction and the auction would have stayed on TM,in reality most are just tyre kickers and time wasters......I had it mention in the add for a few days that the bike was under offer so anyone could have still made an offer... I think TM forgets not everyone has access to computers,as in the case off the purchaser who contacted me through one of the MC clubs I belong too

regards Barry]

Whats your view's?

[Mully]

They just want their pund of flesh.

Note the use of "should" go through TradeMe, not "must" go through TradeMe.

AFAIK, (and IANAL) - the only time a listing on TM is binding is once it's hit reserve.

[Latte]

They just want their pund of flesh.

Note the use of "should" go through TradeMe, not "must" go through TradeMe.

AFAIK, (and IANAL) - the only time a listing on TM is binding is once it's hit reserve.


There's a number plate :buggerd:

:rofl: (KB's rotting my mind, alas)

[Gremlin]

Yeah, I had the same thing when listing a bike a while ago. I put in the auction "I reserve the right to withdraw as it is advertised elsewhere".

TM didn't like this, stating I had to be committed to the auction.

Got pissed, wrote a letter, then calmed down, toned it down a little, then sent, stating that their attempt to be a monopoly was a joke, if they provided the necessary contact, they got their success fee. If they didn't not provide the contact, then they could expect to not receive a single cent.

Feeling much better, I sent. It bounced. :facepalm:

Ending up leaving a feedback, saying if they wanted to talk about it, contact me in a way I could contact them. If they didn't respond, I considered the matter closed. They never replied.

[dogsnbikes]

Basically I find when you have a problem with them its hard too get a response,but as soon as they relise they wont make as much money as they projected out of your auction,they will contact you...

A while ago they bug me because I had money in my account, and hadn't had any listings for awhile (so f'in what), its my money they can always give it back too me (yeah Right)... but they will hound you as soon as your account goes into debt

[SMOKEU]

The Trademe Nazis are at it again.

[davebullet]

As Mully says... unless the auction has bids that reach reserve - there is no "offer and acceptance" so no contract for sale has been entered into.

Trade me has no right to insist you sell exclusively through their site. Your argument about not all people using computers (or trademe for that matter) is a valid one.

If Trademe revoked your account for any reason - You'd have a very good case to complain to the appropriate authority and have it re-instated (potentially with compensation).

TradeMe haven't a legal leg to stand on.

[bogan]

yeh fucking monopolising bastards, gotta wonder how much money they make with high fees and low overheads..... also, I thought bike sales were flat rate to list, regardless of whether it sells or not, so why would they even care?

[Jdogg]

If the auction has reached reserve, you have entered into a contract with the buyer, so you can't just say "advertised elsewhere have right to withdraw" as this is an easy out if it looks like you are not going to get the dollars you are after, you see this happen often on 1 dollar reserve auctions etc...


I cannot count the amount of times I have been bidding on something that I will most likely get cheap, then the auction is withdrawn when it is almost closed and you just know it is because they were not going to get the price they wanted, or it has been sold elsewhere, so on that account I can understand some people's frustration! and most likely why you have been reported by a tm member

[Spazman727]

I've seen bikes and cars listed on TM for ages, like almost a year. If it was me, I would want to list my item on as many possible avenues I could because of the low turnover rate of high ticket items such as vehicles. If Trademe could guarantee that you will sell your bike for a decent price within a reasonable time frame, I would probably list it through them. Since they can't, why would anyone want to rely solely on them?
Also, they charge exorbitant fees for doing next to nothing. Plus they have lots of adds on the site, the owners must be rolling in it.

[Swoop]

It appears the goods offered are no longer available or you have withdrawn it from the site.
Interesting. Trademe says the auction was withdrawn by the administrator.



They certainly want their pound of flesh. Auction fees and listing option fees have gone up over the years.

I used to have their landline phone number somewhere. They do not advertise it since they can rape your wallet on their 0900 number if you really want to talk to them.

[Scuba_Steve]

slightly :Offtopic: But in my opinion TradeMe has gone downhill since it got sold off. fees keep getting higher, 2nd hand good's prices seemed to have risen & the amount of commercial traders has sky rocketed.
It used to be an online garage sale now its an online emporium, Not saying it's all bad just saying it's lost it's way a bit.

Like I said just my opinion, but I'd say their loss of way & heavy focus on profits is why these sort of emails get sent.

[Gremlin]

If the auction has reached reserve, you have entered into a contract with the buyer, so you can't just say "advertised elsewhere have right to withdraw" as this is an easy out if it looks like you are not going to get the dollars you are after, you see this happen often on 1 dollar reserve auctions etc...
Nope, no bids on my bike. I agree completely that if its met reserve then you are committed, but I also detest them trying to play a heavy hand...

[imdying]

Dear barry,
The following listing(s) has come to the attention of Trade Me’s customer service team:

Honda CB250RS 1983 (#329238091)

It appears the goods offered are no longer available or you have withdrawn it from the site.

When you list an item for sale on Trade Me, you should do so with the intention of selling this item through the site, and you should not advertise the goods in other venues. The reason for this is that it is very frustrating for bidders when goods are no longer available. As such auctions must be allowed to run their course and contact details can only be exchanged between the winning bidder and the seller once the auction closes. Wow, you're polite... they would've got back from me:

Oi Fucktards,

Note the word bolded above. There weren't any, therefore, get fucked.

Lots of love,
imdying

[marty]

you had already paid a listing fee. if the auction had not had any bids (or indeed had bids but not reached its reserve - until it reaches reserve then it's not even for sale), then as far as i'm concerned you have every right to change your mind and close the auction.

at least at Turners - no sale, no fee. you don't get stung or get snarky e-mails if your car doesn't sell, but you take it away and sell it via a road-side sign the following day

[baptist]

The other side as well is the bidders who do not follow through on a sale. I had a truck (Sprinter) that sold three times! the first two did not complete the sale but I was charged by trademe as the buy now button was hit. It took a long time to get the success fees refunded... still it serves it purpose I guess and the vehicle got sold in the end.

[dogsnbikes]

As Mully says... unless the auction has bids that reach reserve - there is no "offer and acceptance" so no contract for sale has been entered into.

Trade me has no right to insist you sell exclusively through their site. Your argument about not all people using computers (or trademe for that matter) is a valid one.

If Trademe revoked your account for any reason - You'd have a very good case to complain to the appropriate authority and have it re-instated (potentially with compensation).

TradeMe haven't a legal leg to stand on.

It Appears not:blink:

Dear Barry,

We do understand that but when you choose to list on Trade Me you choose to sell to those people who have access to the computers. You are more than welcome if you auction is not successfull to try selling it through a different avenue but just not at the same time as you have it for auction on Trade Me.

Auctions are not just adverts they are legally binding contracts. If your auction finished with a bidder over the reserve then you are legally bound to complete the trade. If you had sold it in the meantime then the winner of the auction could take you to the Disputes Tribunal to hold you to the terms of the auction.

This would be different if you were selling a car or a house as they can be listed as classifieds which are just adverts and means you can have other adverts in other publications at the same time.

I hope this explainst the legal side of auctions and why our terms and conditions have this rule.

Regards,

Erin

Trade Me Support


if people are bidding regardless of wether the reserve has been met or not I would run the Auction,as I did with the 750 auction finished didn't sell so I sold it privately the next day it wasn't on Tm,as for the 250 no bid's private offer cam through I stated on friday 5th that bike was under offer so it gave TM watchers plenty of time too bid,no bids came through so I stated on the Auction that it was sold on monday 8th,Trademe removed auction last night it was due too close 9am today anyway

As far as I am concerned Watchers had plenty of warning

[Mully]

.
Auctions are not just adverts they are legally binding contracts. If your auction finished with a bidder over the reserve then you are legally bound to complete the trade

First bit is complete bullshit. Ask her for the legislation that says that.

The whole point is that your auction didn't have a bid over the reserve. If it had, and you'd pulled it, I'd be bagging you too

[jtzzr]

If you have an issue.

Please ring Trade Me support( 0900 blah blah)at $2.99+gst per min, That`ll sort it. :yes:

[Scuba_Steve]

First bit is complete bullshit. Ask her for the legislation that says that.

The whole point is that your auction didn't have a bid over the reserve. If it had, and you'd pulled it, I'd be bagging you too

no I think she is right there as it was a auction rather than a classified had someone met reserve you are then legally obliged to produce the goods. (not sure how the advertised warnings (offer, sold) would play out tho?).
lesson is do as others do if sold other than TradeMe while auction running just edit the auction & make the reserve/buy now some obscene price like $200,000 & if someone is stupid enough to meet that price I'm sure you'll be more than willing to source them the goods to complete the contract.

[dogsnbikes]

no I think she is right there as it was a auction rather than a classified had someone met reserve you are then legally obliged to produce the goods. (not sure how the advertised warnings (offer, sold) would play out tho?).
lesson is do as others do if sold other than TradeMe while auction running just edit the auction & make the reserve/buy now some obscene price like $200,000 & if someone is stupid enough to meet that price I'm sure you'll be more than willing to source them the goods to complete the contract.

Now you mention it the start price was $10,000 with a reserve of $14,000 which was a fair price for a honda

[Mully]

no I think she is right there as it was a auction rather than a classified had someone met reserve you are then legally obliged to produce the goods.

Yeah, but the point is he had no bids - and certainly not the reserve met.

TMs position is that running an auction is a legal contract - which is horseshit. Who are are parties to the contract? Any TM member?

[Katman]

And here's an example from the other side of the argument.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=330242773

Trademe should make it so that once reserve is reached the auction is unable to be withdrawn.

[Mully]

Trademe should make it so that once reserve is reached the auction is unable to be withdrawn.

Agreed. FWIW

[Gareth51]

If the auction has not met the reserve you just change the reserve to say 10 million and let it run its course, and if someone comes up with the money I'm sure you'll find a bike which matches the one you advertised

[tigertim20]

Ok so I sold the bike private:woohoo:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/129388-Norman-the-Honda-manwhore?p=1129903566#post1129903566

And get this email from Trademe

Dear barry,
The following listing(s) has come to the attention of Trade Me’s customer service team:

Honda CB250RS 1983 (#329238091)

It appears the goods offered are no longer available or you have withdrawn it from the site.

When you list an item for sale on Trade Me, you should do so with the intention of selling this item through the site, and you should not advertise the goods in other venues. The reason for this is that it is very frustrating for bidders when goods are no longer available. As such auctions must be allowed to run their course and contact details can only be exchanged between the winning bidder and the seller once the auction closes.



If the item is no longer available for a legitimate reason (such as newly discovered damage) please withdraw the item through the site in the future. Please note that the withdrawal feature is only to be used in extreme circumstances. If sellers are found to be taking advantage of the withdrawal feature, their site privileges will be reviewed.

We appreciate your cooperation in this matter. For more information on our listing policies, please check out our help section:


So they missed out on the success fee for a potential Auction....

when I sell something I list in more than one place ie,KB,T&E,TM and the bike clubs I belong too Like alot off others I know .... TM is the only one that wants a listing fee and a success fee

So I sent them this reply

[In regards too my auction if there were members who were serious about buying the bike,they would have made bids on the auction and the auction would have stayed on TM,in reality most are just tyre kickers and time wasters......I had it mention in the add for a few days that the bike was under offer so anyone could have still made an offer... I think TM forgets not everyone has access to computers,as in the case off the purchaser who contacted me through one of the MC clubs I belong too

regards Barry]

Whats your view's?

honest opinion?
youd classify as a trader I put in the 'cunt' category.

Most poeple will wait till towards the end of an auction to bid. thats just normal.

If you are going to list it elsewhere, LIST IT AS A CLASSIFIED.
doing so allows you to post your numbers, have direct email contact directly with any interested parties, allow views, without breaking site rules for sharing contact info.

Frankly way too many poepl list items as auctions, and say "right to withdraw because XXX" but withdraw, because closer to close, it isnt as high as they wanted it to be, so cheat the system.

There are teo, VEry simple ways to get around this.
1) advertise through many different mediums, but NOT as an auction, unless the auction is the only place its advertised.

2) List an auction on trade me, and use other places like KB etc, as exposeure "xx bike for sale, refer to trade me ad, link below", adds exposure, goes to auction, either of the ways above, everybody happy.

Several times, Ive been winning large items, bikes, cars, on trademe, and some cunt withdraws half an hour before auction closes, because they wanted more for it, only to send me a (higher) fixed price offer later, or relist it.

Think ahead, find a way to merge all the ads together, fuck start a bidding war, youll porbably get more out of it.

my $0.02

[dogsnbikes]

honest opinion?
youd classify as a trader I put in the 'cunt' category.

Most poeple will wait till towards the end of an auction to bid. thats just normal.

If you are going to list it elsewhere, LIST IT AS A CLASSIFIED.
it.

my $0.02

I did try to get TM too change lising too a Classified shortly after the first was mistakeling started as a auction and stated too them that the add was meant too be a classidied not a auction....there response was I would have too cancel auction and pay another listing fee....

In the four weeks it on was on TM there wasn't a single bid.....I didn't remove the add off trademe all I did was state on the add it was sold after having on the add for four days that is was under offer,so anyone on Tm could have made a bid anytime.

If there were bids on the Aution sure I would have followed them up,and the new owner was well aware off that.....

TM were in fact the ones who removed the add,so in fact it was TM that short changed it members and not myself

[dogsnbikes]

Auctions online Updated 05 Nov 2009
Your rights.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Online auctions and the law
It's a muddy area. Goods bought at auction or competitive tender are not covered by the Consumer Guarantees Act.

Instead, auctions are covered by the Auctioneers Act, passed in 1928, which prohibits any unlicensed person from conducting an auction. But this Act defines an auction as a sale in the presence of six or more people, in a place accessible to the public, where a licensed auctioneer bangs his gavel to signal its completion. Obviously the Act did not envisage the possibilities of the internet. Thus online auctions do not fit the statutory definition of what an auction is. We're calling for an urgent update to the laws to recognise this new way of doing business.

Currently, your rights will depend upon whether you are buying from a one-off, private seller or from a professional trader.

Buying from a private seller

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Online auctions where you buy from a one-off, private seller are regarded as "private sales". You have limited protection, since private sales are not covered by either the Fair Trading Act or the Consumer Guarantees Act.

However, contract law does apply: for example, the seller can't refuse to supply, or supply the wrong thing; and buyers must pay up.

You may also have some protection from the Contractual Remedies Act, but you'd need to be able to prove that:

you bought an item based on information provided by the seller, and
that information provided by the seller was wrong, and
the false information provided by the seller meant you have lost money.
The terms and conditions on any auction site will be binding unless they contravene your statutory rights.

Buying from a professional trader

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who is a professional trader?
The definition of professional trader under statutes is very broad and basically covers every regular online auction seller. It doesn't matter if you think of it as a hobby or if you've kept your day job - regular traders are professional traders regulated by law.

To get an idea if the seller is a professional trader, look at their previous sales. If they have several listings for the same type of item, or if they have sold similar items in the past, they are probably a professional trader. It doesn't matter if they think of it as a hobby or if they've kept their day job.

Your rights
In most situations, professional traders selling through online auctions have exactly the same responsibilities as people selling through traditional methods like shops or mail order. These are set out in the Fair Trading Act (FTA), Consumer Guarantees Act (CGA) and Secondhand Dealers and Pawnbrokers Act.

The Fair Trading Act

Under the Fair Trading Act:

The goods must be accurately described on the original listing and in any communications with the seller.
Price comparisons must be valid. The seller must be able to show where in New Zealand the goods sell at the claimed price. They can only make comparisons with actual retail prices, not with recommended prices or overseas prices.
Unless the price is clearly GST-exclusive, the seller cannot add GST after the price is agreed.
Sellers cannot use fine print, policies or terms and conditions to change the deal. Anything that isn't explained in the original listing can't be added later.
See our guide to the Fair Trading Act for more information.
The Consumer Guarantees Act (CGA)

The CGA only applies in an online auction when:

You buy everyday goods for personal use;
And you pay a set price or the opening price equals the Buy Now price;
And you buy from a professional trader.
If you place a bid for an item rather than buying at a fixed or Buy Now price, the CGA does not apply.

Your rights under the Act:

Sellers guarantee the goods do their designed job, are free from defects and are safe.
Importers, including small-scale and parallel importers, have the same responsibilities as manufacturers. Unless they specifically tell you otherwise before the sale, importers or NZ manufacturers guarantee to provide repair services and spare parts for a reasonable time after the sale.
See our guide to the Consumer Guarantees Act for more information.
Disputes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What if the seller lets me down?
If you don't receive the goods you've paid for, or you have a problem with a sale:

Ask the seller why - there may be a good explanation.
Inform the site administrator (they may not be able to help you, but they could ban the trader).
Post negative feedback against the seller involved.
If the other party lives in New Zealand, you can take them to a Disputes Tribunal.
You may also be able to make a complaint of criminal fraud to the police.
What if I change my mind?
In placing a bid you are making an offer. If the seller accepts, you are in a legally binding contract, and unless the product is faulty, stolen, or has a security registered against it, you will be obliged to complete the purchase.

Likewise, if you are the seller you can't just change your mind after accepting an offer on an item you had for sale.

As with any contractual situation, go into it with your eyes open. Read the terms and conditions, make sure you understand exactly what you are buying and how, use an escrow service to protect your money, and keep in touch with the person you are trading with.
.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Auctions online Updated 05 Nov 2009
How does it work?.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The process is essentially the same regardless of the website you use.

Before you can buy or sell, you need to register online (this takes about two minutes).

To sell
First you list the item with the trading website, posting a picture of it and specifying the minimum price you will accept - the reserve. A number of sites allow you to sell at a fixed price - in such cases you may be charged a listing fee.

Buyers then place their bids. At the close of the auction, if the reserve has been met, the highest bidder becomes the purchaser. They are sent your contact details and vice versa, and you get in touch with each other to arrange payment and delivery.

To buy
You visit the site and enter the item you are looking for in the search engine. Alternatively, you can just browse the different categories.

Is it safe?
Only a tiny fraction of online auctions turn sour, but it's better to be safe than sorry. Most sites offer an "escrow" service. This is where a trusted third party holds money on behalf of the buyer and seller whilst the transaction is in progress. The buyer pays money into the escrow trust account.

That money is not released to the seller until the goods arrive and (perhaps more importantly) it's clear they match the description given. There is a charge to use an escrow service. Whether this charge will be shared or paid by the buyer is usually indicated in the blurb placed by the seller.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Auctions online Updated 05 Nov 2009
Our advice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For buyers
Under the current law for online transactions, you’re only protected under the Consumer Guarantees Act if you buy for personal or household use (not business use) and you buy from someone in trade and you buy from an internet auction at a fixed price like “Buy Now”.
Bidding on an online auction almost always means you have no consumer rights. The sole exception is if you are misled about the condition of the goods.
Never bid on a new item sold by a trader or business in an online auction unless you’re prepared to forfeit your consumer rights.
Check the trader's history, if it's available.
Check the site community message board regularly for advice and warnings.
Check the advice for safe trading on the auction website.
Only use address-verified traders. And get an address from the trader before you pay them money - it might make them easier to trace if you need to contact them later.
Check the item's retail price. Not all auction prices are a bargain! Don't get swept up in the thrill of the chase and bid more than the goods are worth.
Factor in your likely postage/freight costs (bulky items can cost hundreds of dollars to deliver). And NZ Post prohibits posting some items.
Consider insuring expensive items against loss or damage in transit.
Use an escrow service when dealing with new traders, high value items, or when dealing with overseas traders.
Ask questions. Experienced buyers recommend asking lots of questions before you bid. If you know about the product, ask questions even if you don't intend to buy. The responses will help inform other members.
Make sure you know what you are buying. For example, it's not unusual to sell digital cameras and their memory card separately. Do the goodies come with memory, battery, leads, charger, bag etc?
When you buy from a professional trader, ask the seller how long the product is expected to keep working under normal conditions. That will give you an idea of your Consumer Guarantees Act rights.
When you buy from a professional trader, ask questions about guarantees. Who is the guarantee with - the seller or a local agent? If the seller refers you to a local agent, check with them before you bid - it might just take a phone call or e-mail.
Be realistic about what you are getting. Don't spend hundreds of dollars on products that are likely to need backup advice or service.
If you are buying a major item such as a vehicle, boat or caravan, check the Personal Property Securities Register - a register where information on money owed on personal property is recorded.
Contact the seller promptly after you have won an auction, and pay straight away.
Be suspicious of traders who won't let you collect your purchase. They may be trying to make themselves hard to find.
Print and keep a copy of the original auction posting and any communication with the seller. You'll need it to check the item you receive matches the item pictured or described, and if you need after-sales service.
Never send cash or telegraphic transfers. Use internet banking, cheque or money order so the transaction can be tracked
Pay by credit card if you can. You can reverse the transaction if the goods don't turn up - this is called a Chargeback.
Don't deposit money in overseas bank accounts.
For sellers
Check the site's fees and factor them into your calculations.
Set realistic starting / reserve prices.
Describe the item accurately, and attach a photo if possible.
Make sure your terms of sale are clear, and give an indication as to shipping costs.
If not using an escrow service, don't send the goods until you have been paid (and if paid by cheque, until the cheque has cleared).
Send the goods promptly, and in accordance with your agreement with the buyer. We recommend using a post or courier service that allows you to track where your parcel is and whether it has been received. If the parcel never arrives you'll have to refund the buyer their money.
Disclosure: Some of our information appears on the Trade Me website by arrangement between Trade Me and Consumer NZ.
.

[Grasshopperus]

First bit is complete bullshit. Ask her for the legislation that says that.

The whole point is that your auction didn't have a bid over the reserve. If it had, and you'd pulled it, I'd be bagging you too

I agree with Mully on this.

Despite what people want to believe, the internet is still the wild-west.

Clicking buy-now or bidding does not represent a legally-binding contract. The internet is far too murky a place for anything to be set in stone. I think that any of these defences would work at the dispute tribunal

* Someone logged in as me using stolen credentials (maybe also using my hacked wireless)
* My kid jumped on my PC using the (TM designed) auto-login feature
* As someone else mentioned TM auctions don't even meet the criteria of a valid auction
* Finding any tiny excuse to abort the sale (oh, there's a tiny scratch on the bike that the seller didn't tell me about)

But anyway, this is just another good reason why you should not register using a NZ-based email supplier in your contact details (ie. blah@xtra.co.nz), why you should not use your real name and if you're actually going to go out and be a dick, why you should use an anonymity-service (search google for 'anonymous proxy' there's heaps of them)