The draft Land Transport Amendment Rule [2011] is out...

[Squiggles]

The draft Land Transport (Driver Licensing) Amendment Rule [2011] is available for comment. Among the Rule amendment proposals are changes to improve the safety of young drivers and motorcyclists and moped riders, to improve the integrity of the driver licensing system and to make business processes clearer and easier. Submissions close on 20 December 2010.

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/consultation/driver-licensing-amendment-2011/


Theres a bit in there about the removal of the 70kph limit for learners and looks like up to 660cc motorcycles (unless their power exceeds 150kw/tonne)

[hellokitty]

removal of the 70km rule is a good idea - many times while I was on my L plate, I was tail gated and nearly run offf the road by angry cagers :angry: scary too when you are new to riding.
I don't think they actually realised that it was the law, they just think you are being difficult and riding slowly.

[Mudfart]

awww man i only just got my full after all that money, and a 250 ninja. now im riding something i coulda jumped on with a learners?

[Squiggles]

awww man i only just got my full after all that money, and a 250 ninja. now im riding something i coulda jumped on with a learners?

Fairly certain your SVF is above 150KW/tonne

[bogan]

Fairly certain your SVF is above 150KW/tonne

yeh, my bros is just over (unless they combine rider weight in there) so don't think there'd be too many 650s under it, maybe the DR would be? but is light as well so maybe not...

so I'd be paying big bike rego fees on a almost learner bike :facepalm:

[pete376403]

DR650 is a bit less porky than the KLR650 but they are both "not lightweight"

KLR with a full tank is 190kg, and about 33kw at the crank. DR will be lighter with a full tank if only because the tank is much smaller than the KLR, power is about the same.

[baptist]

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/consultation/driver-licensing-amendment-2011/


Theres a bit in there about the removal of the 70kph limit for learners and looks like up to 660cc motorcycles (unless their power exceeds 150kw/tonne)

The 70km removal is good. The licence system changes may not please everyone though. Did I miss the bit where gaining a car licence is going to get harder?

[GOONR]

[....... looks like up to 660cc motorcycles (unless their power exceeds 150kw/tonne)

Bit like this (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/tests/motorcycleridertrainingscheme/motorcyclesnoviceriders.html) then.

[The Stranger]

Theres a bit in there about the removal of the 70kph limit for learners and looks like up to 660cc motorcycles (unless their power exceeds 150kw/tonne)

WTF? Everyone knows anything over 600cc is especially dangerous and in need of taxing off the road. Imagine the mayhem and carnage an XT660 in the hands of a learner.

[Squiggles]

Bit like this (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/tests/motorcycleridertrainingscheme/motorcyclesnoviceriders.html) then.

Totally, they refer to the Aussie approach throughout the Q&A doc.

Interesting that the SFV is on their approved list, I calculated it (albeit roughly) as over so perhaps there is an allowance in their one for rider weight...

[EJK]

According to the formulae provided, Suzuki FXR and the Yamaha Scorpio barely (just) fits under.

[Squiggles]

According to the formulae provided, Suzuki FXR and the Yamaha Scorpio barely (just) fits under.

All under 250's are allowed unless they decide they should prohibit that model (e.g. RS250)


“prohibited motorcycle means—
“(a) a motorcycle with a total piston displacement exceeding
660 cm3:
“(b) a motorcycle with a total piston displacement between
250 cm3 and 660 cm3 and a power-to-weight ratio of
150 kilowatts per tonne or more that, unless approved
for use by the Agency by notice in the Gazette, is—
“(i) prohibited by the Minister; and“(ii) notified by the Agency in the Gazette and on the
Agency’s Internet site:
“(c) any other motorcycle that is—
“(i) prohibited by the Minister; and
“(ii) notified by the Agency in the Gazette and on the
Agency’s Internet site”.

The GDLS changes are interesting... Allowing a person to do their Restricted License Test or a competency-based training assessment

[\m/]

Pretty sure LAMS allows 90kg for rider and fuel. There shouldn't be any cc limit though, any good sports 250 is faster than a 883 tractor.

[sil3nt]

How long do these drafts take to actually go into law?

[Ronin]

The 70km removal is good. The licence system changes may not please everyone though. Did I miss the bit where gaining a car licence is going to get harder?

Yeah I like that bit. Has been needed for ages. It has been far to easy for far to long.

[Ronin]

Reading the LAMS it is interesting to see a Suzuki SV650 (SU). Suzuki bought out a low volume detuned SV650 to get on the list. Good move that.

[sil3nt]

I would imagine Hyosung would bring their detuned 650R over here as well as that was the top selling learner legal bike in aus.

[jeremysprite]

Didn't read the NZ law - but saw on the linked Aussie LAMS list that any bike built before 1960 and less than 660cc are approved?

Did this exclusion make it into the NZ law?

I'm having dreams of race tuning a 1960s bike :yes:

[MSTRS]

From page 7...


Clause 16(1)(d) is amended by revoking subparagraph (ii) and
substituting the following subparagraph:
“(ii) must not—
“(A) ride between the hours of 10 pm and 5 am;
or
“(B) ride a prohibited motorcycle; or
“(C) carry another person on the moped or
motorcycle or in a sidecar attached to the
moped or motorcycle.”

Appears the requirement to display an L plate is going as well?

[robo555]

Didn't read the NZ law - but saw on the linked Aussie LAMS list that any bike built before 1960 and less than 660cc are approved?

Did this exclusion make it into the NZ law?

I'm having dreams of race tuning a 1960s bike :yes:

Get your full licence sorted then you can get any bike you want!

[grusomhat]

Proposal 9 will be a welcome relief.

[Swoop]

How long do these drafts take to actually go into law?
Look at the speed of a glacier travelling at full throttle for reference.
Unless it's a politician's payrise, then it will be faster than the speed of light.



So. A moped licence prohibits carrying a passenger.

[DangerMice]

Kinda confused on the difference between a 6L & a 6M (apart from the obvious: can only ride a moped on a 6M). Seems like it will be the same tests for both (BHS, theory). Do the hours you're allowed to ride not apply to a 6M? Otherwise I don't see why you'd go for a 6M over a 6L, even if you just rode mopeds. Cost difference maybe?

[baptist]

Look at the speed of a glacier travelling at full throttle for reference.
Unless it's a politician's payrise, then it will be faster than the speed of light.



So. A moped licence prohibits carrying a passenger.

Looks like some parts will be acted upon July next year but some of the motorcycle licence changes may take a year longer.

[Bald Eagle]

Yet again it appears motorcyclists are being given discriminatory treatment based on knee jerk reactions to 'perceived' issues.

The real problem is that the whole system is compliance based and focused on 'passing a test'.

It should be safety focused and based on acqusition of skills for all road users, regardless of motive power or number of wheels.

[Squiggles]

From page 7...

Clause 16(1)(d) is amended by revoking subparagraph (ii) and
substituting the following subparagraph:
“(ii) must not—
“(A) ride between the hours of 10 pm and 5 am;
or
“(B) ride a prohibited motorcycle; or
“(C) carry another person on the moped or
motorcycle or in a sidecar attached to the
moped or motorcycle.”


Appears the requirement to display an L plate is going as well?

Nah, part (i) refers to the L plate...

in the case of a Class 6L licence, where the holder is riding a motorcycle, the holder—

*

(i) must display on the vehicle an "“L”" plate as specified in clause 66; and

*

(ii) must not—
o

(A) drive between the hours of 10 pm and 5 am; or
o

(B) drive at a speed exceeding 70 km/h, unless taking the restricted licence test for a Class 6R licence under clause 48(5); or
o

(C) drive a motorcycle that has a total piston displacement exceeding 250 cm3; or
o

(D) carry another person on the motorcycle or in a sidecar attached to the motorcycle.


http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1999/0100/latest/whole.html?search=ts_act_Land+Transport+Act+1998_n oresel&p=1#DLM281347

Under Clause 16

[Swoop]

It should be ... based on acqusition of skills for all road users, regardless of motive power or number of wheels.
That is the crux of the matter. Every gubbinment fails to see this simple fact.

I would prefer to see someone who is unlicenced but having the skills, over someone who has fuck all skills yet has a bit of paper (scratch & win), released onto our roads.

[p.dath]

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/consultation/driver-licensing-amendment-2011/


Theres a bit in there about the removal of the 70kph limit for learners...

Where is that bit, I can't find it.

[p.dath]

I'm starting to think the new restriction system they are making for learners is going to be too complicated.

We based our new system on the Australians, and I see they have recently changed their system to a simple list. Basically a learner can only use a bike if it is on "the list", and it is up to the manufacturers and importers bringing the bikes into the country to have them added to the list.
I think this is a much simpler idea for someone completely new to riding wanting to get their first bike for their learners licence.
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/tests/motorcycleridertrainingscheme/motorcyclesnoviceriders.html


What do you think?

[GOONR]

I'm starting to think the new restriction system they are making for learners is going to be too complicated.

We based our new system on the Australians, and I see they have recently changed their system to a simple list. Basically a learner can only use a bike if it is on "the list", and it is up to the manufacturers and importers bringing the bikes into the country to have them added to the list.
I think this is a much simpler idea for someone completely new to riding wanting to get their first bike for their learners licence.
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/tests/motorcycleridertrainingscheme/motorcyclesnoviceriders.html


What do you think?I think that you have confused me.

To get on the RTA NSW list the bike needs to have an engine capacity up to and including 660ml and not exceed a power to weight ratio of 150 kilowatts per tonne.

That is what is being proposed over here, the same thing... Or am I really not following what you are saying.

[p.dath]

I think that you have confused me.

To get on the RTA NSW list the bike needs to have an engine capacity up to and including 660ml and not exceed a power to weight ratio of 150 kilowatts per tonne.

That is what is being proposed over here, the same thing... Or am I really not following what you are saying.

Correct, that is what has to be done to get onto the list. But no learner rider ever has to be concerned with that or the process (in NSW) - because their new law says that a learner rider can only ride bikes on that list - it's up to the manufacturers and importers to get their bikes onto the list (aka those with experience with bikes).

All a learner has to do (in NSW) is check to see if their bike is on the learners list. Very simple.


It looks like in NZ we are going to specify that the bike meets the same requirements to get onto the list - but their wont be any legal requirement for that list. So a learner buying a bike now has to check themselves the engine capacity and power to weight ratio meet the legal requirement.
You can see how this is going to be much harder to someone just beginning their riding life.

[GOONR]

Correct, that is what has to be done to get onto the list. But no learner rider ever has to be concerned with that or the process (in NSW) - because their new law says that a learner rider can only ride bikes on that list - it's up to the manufacturers and importers to get their bikes onto the list (aka those with experience with bikes).

All a learner has to do (in NSW) is check to see if their bike is on the learners list. Very simple.


It looks like in NZ we are going to specify that the bike meets the same requirements to get onto the list - but their wont be any legal requirement for that list. So a learner buying a bike now has to check themselves the engine capacity and power to weight ratio meet the legal requirement.
You can see how this is going to be much harder to someone just beginning their riding life.

I understand it to be that there will be a list published, in the proposal it mentions that new bikes will be added and a notification will be published in the Gazette. If there were no list how would road side check points work? Plod would have to manually work out every bike they stopped with a 6L or 6R licence holder riding it.

[p.dath]

For your interest only, I made a submission to proposal 16 of the changes. Proposal 16 currently states that a learners bike must be under 660cc and less than 150 kw/tonne. They have indicated that a list will be maintained of bikes that meet this requirement to help people out.


I have given some consideration to the wording of proposal 16a, and think a different focus might be of benefit.

I've considered three views.
1. A person wanting to get into riding with no experience. The current wording places the onus on the new rider to ensure the bike meets the legal requires of being under 660cc and less than 150 kw/tonne. This is a lot of knowledge for someone to possess who does not know anything about riding.
2. Enforcement on the road side by Police will be difficult. I cannot see how a Police person could readily determine the power to weight ratio by just looking at the motorcycle. Additionally, I can see some difficulties for the court in trying to uphold this law. For example, how exactly is the weight measured (dry sump, with or without rider, at what RPM, at what temperature). Also there can be quite some variance between a manufactures published power figures at what is actually measured on a Dyno. And even when using a Dyno, no two Dyno's are likely to give the same answer as they often measure the power in different ways.
3. No provision is allowed for new technology, such as electric bikes.

I understand that a list is proposed to be used to assist in these areas.


I would like to propose that the legislation be changed so that it states a learner can only ride a bike that is on the list, as opposed to stating the technical mechanical requirements of the motorbike. This makes it very easy for someone buying a motorbike - it is either on the list or not. It makes enforcement on the side of the road very easy, and it makes it easy on the courts.

I also propose that the legislation provide the power to the LSTA to add and remove motorcycles from the approved learner bike list.

And I propose that the LTSA prepare guidelines saying that only bikes under 660cc and under 150 kw/tonne (as currently proposed in the legislation) will be placed on the list, and that manufacturers and importers (who have the technical knowledge) need to apply to the LTSA to have their bikes placed on that list. This shifts the onus from those without the knowledge to those with the knowledge.

I would suggest that the LTSA could also say that any bike on the Australian list is automatically placed on the NZ list.

The reason I prefer that the process is managed by the LTSA is that the LTSA can adapt faster to changes - such as the uptake of electric bikes. Anything put in legislation takes a long time to change.

[sil3nt]

Your points 1 and 2 are stupid. There will be a set list. Its not like the buyers or the police are going to be crunching numbers.

Point 3 is valid i guess...but not something that will need to be taken into consideration for awhile yet.

[p.dath]

Your points 1 and 2 are stupid. There will be a set list. Its not like the buyers or the police are going to be crunching numbers.

The problem is the list has no legal basis when it comes to enforcement - the law as it is proposed requires that you crunch the numbers. The law also doesn't define exactly how the measurements are to be done. For example, it doesn't say how the weight is measured - which obviously affects the power to weight ratio.

I proposed they remove the "crunching of numbers", and make the legal requirement be that the bike is on the list. Simpler to work out.

[bogan]

The problem is the list has no legal basis when it comes to enforcement - the law as it is proposed requires that you crunch the numbers. The law also doesn't define exactly how the measurements are to be done. For example, it doesn't say how the weight is measured - which obviously affects the power to weight ratio.

I proposed they remove the "crunching of numbers", and make the legal requirement be that the bike is on the list. Simpler to work out.

think that how they do it in aus, so we'll get same limits, same list! and a bunch of shitty detuned bikes, I hear they actually further de-tune a hyo to get it on the list :shit:


Got round to having a read of it, heres my notes, to form a submission from in future.


I have no problems with proposals 13 and below. However in the motorcycling section I am displeased to read the 20x figure as a justification for singling motorcyclists out. As you should know in this instance motorcycle is termed as almost any powered two wheeled vehicle, a third of which are mopeds, limited to 50kmhr (essentially urban travel). Clearly merging such classes will skew any result of a per kilometer analysis. In the survey I could find (2009 one, not sure where to get the new one from?) the moped class bikes made up 6% of the km, but 21% of the accidents! Also less than a quarter of a percent of the fleet were included in the survey, giving a large margin of error.

I agree that the motorcycle license tests need to be toughened up, but would like to see this happen for all license classes, after all, around half of motorcyclists accident are not caused by the rider.

List of proposals I support, but would very much like to see them applied to car drivers and other classes as well. If it benefits bikers I see no reason why they won't benefit others too.
14, 15, 16

I support prop 17, and wholeheartedly support proposal 18, the 70kmhr limit does more harm than good in my opinion.

I am a little unclear on proposal 19, there seems to be no difference between 6M and 6L? tests sound the same for both, but 6m you can't ride as much bikes, though I assume the 6L will lapse earlier. Apart from that I agree, moped should always have come exclusively under the class 6 banner.

And I have no strong feeling for the remainder of the proposals.

[davereid]

This is a step in the right direction. The 660cc thing is a waste of paper, it just confuses the issue.

A simple power to weight ratio and perhaps a maximum vehicle weight may be more useful.

[p.dath]

think that how they do it in aus, so we'll get same limits, same list! and a bunch of shitty detuned bikes, I hear they actually further de-tune a hyo to get it on the list :shit:


From what I read, our proposed legislation is a mirror image for the Australian legislation. They also run a list to help people work out what is legal or not, but the list itself has no legal basis.

[bogan]

From what I read, our proposed legislation is a mirror image for the Australian legislation. They also run a list to help people work out what is legal or not, but the list itself has no legal basis.

hmmm, maybe it's the uk or somewhere else then, I have a feeling that some country uses a list and the manufacturers have to pay to get thier bikes checked and added to the list. So I assumed it had a legal basis.
But I think the issue of checking them will be easily solved if they adopt the amendment, the amendment doesn't have to say how it will be policed. Could be a list, could be a number on the rego label, could be an approved sticker for the bike after a check by vtnz...

[Dare]

it's up to the manufacturers and importers to get their bikes onto the list
What if the bike in question in currently is being neither manufactured or imported?

Had a look at the Aus list a while back and there were a few NZ learner staples missing..

[DEATH_INC.]

I like it, RGV's and RS's should become cheap again :)

[phiretrojan]

I might be jumping the gun here (bang jump,! woohoo missed me) , but i was just reading the draft it sounds alot like the AUS Transport rules, so then i checked out

http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Research/Motorbikes/Buying-Your-First-Motorbike


and noticed "between 250 and 660cc are approved or rejected depending on their power output and weight. If it's got a high performance four cylinder engine, than you can bet it's out but if it has a lazy old single or twin cylinder engine, then it's probably in. But you need to check."

cause i know the Cbr250 are high performance four cyl engines! - which means CBr250s are out??? :shit:

[p.dath]

What if the bike in question in currently is being neither manufactured or imported?

Then it would require someone to apply to have it put on the list ... and if it is a popular bike, then likely some dealer would do it quickly so as to not miss out on any sales.


cause i know the Cbr250 are high performance four cyl engines! - which means CBr250s are out??? :shit:


There are only 4 bikes that are 250cc or less that are excluded, and that is not one of them.

[sil3nt]

I might be jumping the gun here (bang jump,! woohoo missed me) , but i was just reading the draft it sounds alot like the AUS Transport rules, so then i checked out

http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Research/Motorbikes/Buying-Your-First-Motorbike


and noticed "between 250 and 660cc are approved or rejected depending on their power output and weight. If it's got a high performance four cylinder engine, than you can bet it's out but if it has a lazy old single or twin cylinder engine, then it's probably in. But you need to check."

cause i know the Cbr250 are high performance four cyl engines! - which means CBr250s are out??? :shit:They are more talking about bikes like the RVF 400. This bike is on the list but i have heard it has been taken off in some states or will be taken off. The only reason it is on the lists is that Honda understated the RVFs power and the people who make the lists dont realise what they are letting on. In reality it makes about the same HP as every other sports 400. Will be interesting to see if it will be allowed over here.

[phiretrojan]

Here a question,

i don't know if this is true, this is what i just heard.....not to sure if its going to happen in New Zealand

few good mates from aussie, told me, that (should have my full by then but if not) that if a motorcycle is not on a LAMS list, Example R6 but if you get it De-Tuned you can get it accepted ?? would this be true? lol or GSXR600 should be a LAMS bike if you promise to leave it in C Mode lol lol Yes i know get my Full i guess its the fair of not passing

[p.dath]

Here a question,

i don't know if this is true, this is what i just heard.....not to sure if its going to happen in New Zealand

few good mates from aussie, told me, that (should have my full by then but if not) that if a motorcycle is not on a LAMS list, Example R6 but if you get it De-Tuned you can get it accepted ?? would this be true? lol or GSXR600 should be a LAMS bike if you promise to leave it in C Mode lol lol Yes i know get my Full i guess its the fair of not passing

In the current proposal, you would have to be able to prove that its power to weight ratio was less than 150kw/tonne. I would think you would need independent dyno sessions from multiple dynos to do that.

[StoneY]

Hell of a long thread with so many people repeating themselves

We will be initially following the LAMs list used in Victoria as a start point

thats it

Quit bleating!

this is the best license change in YEARS, the 70kph limit removed, bigger bikes for bigger people to learn on....
Bike shops and Licensing agencies will have all the info needed by the time this becomes law so just chill and quit all the bullshit speculation

Even if CBR or RGV 250's are not allowed, WHO CARES
The range of bikes that will now be available to learners will be HUGE compared to just '250cc' capacity

There are a number of nice mid powered 4 cyl 550's and such out there worth considering for the learner/restricted period

[MSTRS]

I
cause i know the Cbr250 are high performance four cyl engines! - which means CBr250s are out??? :shit:




There are only 4 bikes that are 250cc or less that are excluded, and that is not one of them.

If it's a 2 stroke GP-replica type then it's out. RGV, TZ, NSR, RS....KR1?
4 stroke 250s comply with he power/weight thing.

[phiretrojan]

Hi All, for the leaners out there, i did a submission for the new learners rules, i just got a email back quoting "Thank you for your submission. It will be considered by the policy analysts working on this proposed Rule amendment"

so hopefully they do it, cause they do it in the UK and some bikes in AUS, - plus noticed on a few forums about it as well, people are seeing gsx600c and r6 cbr600c with LAMS :scooter: :scooter: :scooter: :scooter: :scooter:

this should work for all 600cc bikes, would save money so for example, i want a R6 .... i go buy one, add restrictor plates/detune from a motorcycle store, get a Cerf from them saying its detuned (carry it all the time with you..)or something like that....... learn on that bike and once i get my full i can take it back to the location where they detuned it and get them to remove the restrictor plates it would save alot of time on money ..... so people don't have to buy another bike, if thats the bike they want. hopefully that make sense - its worth a shot .... so just doing some research

an R6 2010 is 91.0 kW (122.0 hp) @ 14,500 rpm a plate should drop it to (100hp) @ 12,200 rpm so i guess depending on the person weight and gas... but i'm sure there is more restrictors you can do like .. a restrictor for your throttle so you cant full throttle it, it stops before mid... etc personally i think if they can do this.. this would be a awesome idea! but then again.. IDK its worth a shot

[p.dath]

...
so hopefully they do it, cause they do it in the UK and some bikes in AUS, - plus noticed on a few forums about it as well, people are seeing gsx600c and r6 cbr600c with LAMS :scooter: :scooter: :scooter: :scooter: :scooter:

this should work for all 600cc bikes, would save money so for example, i want a R6 .... i go buy one, add restrictor plates/detune from a motorcycle store, get a Cerf from them saying its detuned (carry it all the time with you..)or something like that....... learn on that bike and once i get my full i can take it back to the

I think that would fit within the current proposed legislation without changes. The bikes mentioned are already less than 660c. And as long as you had can prove the power is less than 150kw/tonne, you should be fine.

[5t3a1F]

There are a number of nice mid powered 4 cyl 550's and such out there worth considering for the learner/restricted period

Not sure which world you are living in mate, quick research tells me that the last 4cyl 550's manufactured were suzuki's gs550 in 1981 and honda's cb550 in 1982.

If by 'a number' you mean 'one only' available on trademe, and I'm unsure whether you would describe it as nice.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/CategoryAttributeSearchResults.aspx?search=1&mcat=0001-0026-1255-&sidebar=1&39=&40=&153=gs550&9=500&9=750&24=0&24=0&51=0&51=0&sidebarSearch_keypresses=5&sidebarSearch_suggested=0

anyone else know of any 550 fours for sale?