SMIDSY - is there such a thing?

[shrub]

This is expanding a post in another thread because I think it's an issue that warrants discussion on its own.

SMIDSY events are something all motorcyclists have encountered, and all too often they end in pain and damaged motorcycles, but I'm not so sure that the perpetrators didn't see us, and if so I think they can be cut down and thereby make our lives safer.

I simply cannot believe that human eyes and brains are incapable of seeing a moving, and often noisy, object approx. 1.8 m tall by 1 metre wide with a shining light on it - right now I can see a bird sitting on a roof about 100m away and it has no lights on. I think that in most SMIDSYs the motorcyclist was seen but not acknowledged. As I understand it the human brain goes through the following three steps:
1) Things stimulate our senses and data is sent to our brains - eye detects bike, sparrow, road sign, 40 tonne truck, ugly girl etc and sends data to brain.
2) The subconscious part of the brain sorts the huge amount of information and decides based on prior programming which needs to be acted on - sparrow, ignore; sign, slow down; ugly girl, ignore; truck, avoid; bike, ??? and sends the information to be acted on to the conscious.
3) The conscious side of our brains then acts according to what has been identified as something to pay attention to. As motorcyclists our brains have been trained to read road surfaces, whereas my partner who has never ridden a bike just doesn't notice the roadkill on the apex, the damp shadow or the tar snake that I see very clearly because it means nothing to her - she's as likely to notice the flax bush on the side of the road.


Essentially human beings are motivated by fear or greed, and if they see something that is potentially a threat or to be desired they notice it - if 100 ordinary people walk past and one is a pretty girl in a bikini and one a big ugly Hells Angel, which ones will you notice? And when you buy something, have you ever noticed how often you now notice other people with what you bought? I believe so many of us get hit because people don't see us as having any significance by presenting a threat or being worth protecting, so while their eyes record us, their brain is not programmed to say "motorcyclist - pay attention, respond to him/her and don't pull out etc'.

I very, very rarely have to take evasive action on my bike, yet I do it all the time in my car, and I use my bike a hell of a lot more than the car which really only gets used to go to the gym and do the shopping. I put that down to a constant and focussed awareness of what car everyone else is doing, but also because I'm a big bastard (6ft3, 120 kgs) in black on a big, noisy black bike. Car drivers see me and when the image gets to their brain the brain says "threat, notice him and avoid him". When i worked in a bike shop I rode a lot of bikes, and I know from personal experience that when I rode 250s and even sports bikes, the behaviour of other road users degenerated.

I don't think we should all put on weight, buy big bikes and wear black, and that's why I want to see TPTB trying to get the message through to our fellow road users that hitting us is dreadfully bad form and results in killing people. As a marketer I know just how easy it is to change thinking, so I'd like to see the thinking of ALL road users changed so they realise that hitting another road user, especially a bike, is a very, very bad thing to do and brings nasty kharma in buckets.

[Katman]

If we've got our own eyes open and are making allowance for the incompetence of others the vast majority of these incidents would never become an issue.

[MSTRS]

- if 100 ordinary people walk past and one is a pretty girl in a bikini and one a big ugly Hells Angel, which ones will you notice?

Depends, don't it. Are you looking to get laid, or avoid a monstering?
In terms of motoring, it is usually the threat angle that is acted upon, so the pretty girl becomes, conversely, the motorcycle, if you happen to be driving a car. And that vicious 1%er 'should' become that Mack about to T-bone you...

[Quasievil]

SMIDSY events are something all motorcyclists have encountered, .

What the fuck is SMIDSY ?

[Mully]

If we've got our own eyes open and are making allowance for the incompetence of others the vast majority of these incidents would never become an issue.

Agreed. Every time I strap my lid on, I acknowledge that I'm taking responsibility for my own safety.

The SMIDSY is much like "I heard you, but I wasn't listening".

Much like your brain registers that a 40 tonne truck in your bonnet will fuck you up - a ~200kg bike probably wont.

[shrub]

If we've got our own eyes open and are making allowance for the incompetence of others the vast majority of these incidents would never become an issue.

I agree, and that's why I ride with 100% concentration 100% of the time, but what about the noob who hasn't learnt that yet? Or who hasn't learnt the skills to turn a SMIDSY into a "fucking idiot, now back to riding" instead of a "Tell Laura I love her..."?

I agree that it behooves motorcyclists to do EVERYTHING possible to minimise risk, but I also believe that it is the responsibility of TPTB to do their bit too, and given I think most SMIDSYs are the result of driver education and attitude why can't we demand that they make our lives safer? Might as well get some benefit from our taxes and registration costs.

[shrub]

What the fuck is SMIDSY ?

Sorry Mate I Didn't See You

[Katman]

I agree, and that's why I ride with 100% concentration 100% of the time, but what about the noob who hasn't learnt that yet?

Then I suggest they learn in a fucking hurry.

[shrub]

Then I suggest they learn in a fucking hurry.

How? The way I learnt by spending years riding? Or should we demand that every motorcyclist engages in intensive training when they get their licenses? Or do noobs not count?

[Katman]

How? The way I learnt by spending years riding? Or should we demand that every motorcyclist engages in intensive training when they get their licenses? Or do noobs not count?

You're confusing 'concentration' with 'riding skills'.

The ability to teach yourself total concentration has nothing to do with experience. It can, and should, be a learning process that begins at day 1 on a motorcycle.

When I started the couriering job in London the first few days I would come home totally shattered mentally (you can imagine the mental effort of riding 12 hour days in London traffic). By the second week I barely noticed the effort of concentrating at that level.

The brain is capable of so much more than we ever ask of it.

[Rych]

You're confusing 'concentration' with 'riding skills'.

The ability to teach yourself total concentration has nothing to do with experience. It can, and should, be a learning process that begins at day 1 on a motorcycle.

When I started the couriering job in London the first few days I would come home totally shattered mentally (you can imagine the mental effort of riding 12 hour days in London traffic). By the second week I barely noticed the effort of concentrating at that level.

The brain is capable of so much more than we ever ask of it.
This is true, I have found motorcycling very draining and come home wasted as I am constantly scanning taking in information, determining what is a threat what is not, being aware of what is around me 360 degrees...

Being aware is not necessarily linked to years of experience riding, it's common sense, most normal people know BIG TRUCK IS THREAT or car on side street waiting to pull into my lane is threat... Sometimes driving my car I can forget the last 1-2km of where I just was because by accident I have just zoned out and driven by habit, never has that happened riding. That doesn't happen driving these days as I think the riding habits come into driving keeping you alert no mater what you're in on the road.

But yea I have to agree with the OP, how can you not see my bright blue bike with a bright light on the front of it??? If you can't you should not be on the road.

[baptist]

Then I suggest they learn in a fucking hurry.

So you picked it all up in two weeks of intensive riding around London, good for you. How about the newbie, like me, who commutes and then rides at the weekend, we do not get that level of experience that quickly. And how about the first day or two out on your own. Katman, I have read so much of this from you but very little in the way of practical help. I think what Shrub is asking for is a little bit of help from the govnt to educate car drivers about how vulnerable we can be. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZwLVIq9-Ysk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZwLVIq9-Ysk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> I remember this advert from when I was a kid and the advice has always stuck with me. Not sure they were ever shown in NZ but maybe it is time to run a similar type of safety campaign instead of every ad being about drink driving.

[shrub]

You're confusing 'concentration' with 'riding skills'.... The brain is capable of so much more than we ever ask of it.

No, concentration is a skill and needs to be learned, or at the very least the rider needs to learn that concentration is critical to survival. And concentration is all very well, but you need to learn to spot the hazards. You and I know instinctively that a front wheel turning right means a potential U turn, or that cars don't just slow down and are probably going to turn and that tar snakes on a wet day are scary. Because we're concentrating we see the hazard and respond appropriately which means we get home to drink beer. New riders haven't learned those skills yet.

I agree, the brain is capable of more than we ask of it, so what's wrong with asking for other road users brains to be programmed into noticing us?

[onearmedbandit]

Compulsory defensive riding course for all new riders, targeting hazzard awareness and identification.


It's not a silver bullet, but it will help new riders realise just what they are getting in to.

[Rych]

Compulsory defensive riding course for all new riders, targeting hazzard awareness and identification.


It's not a silver bullet, but it will help new riders realise just what they are getting in to.
This, I did it for my drivers and learned some valuable information I had not been advised of by anyone else. After that one week I was scanning ahead, scanning driveways etc which I didn't think much of in my first months of driving.

Highly recommend defense course for new drivers/riders.

[Katman]

Compulsory defensive riding course for all new riders, targeting hazzard awareness and identification.


It's not a silver bullet, but it will help new riders realise just what they are getting in to.

I think it's a great idea and probably the closest to a silver bullet that we're ever likely to find.

[onearmedbandit]

Is it then something we motorcyclists have championed for? Surely no one here can dispute how vunerable we are as road users, and how vastly different riding a bike is to driving a car? If that is the case isn't it in our best interest to ensure our future riders do not become statistics, and ultimately keep the costs of motorcycling (both socially and finiancially) at a lower level.

Rather than pointing the finger of blame (don't get me wrong here, I do realise other road users are sometimes to blame) at others, lets take responsibility for ourselves and improve our own backyard. After that is done, then we can start pointing the finger at others. Not that we'd need too then...

[Pascal]

How are you going to convince your average scooter rider who picked it up on a car license and ride in shorts and jandals or a skirt and damn near close to high heels to go on a defensive driving course?

[Edbear]

Compulsory defensive riding course for all new riders, targeting hazzard awareness and identification.

It's not a silver bullet, but it will help new riders realise just what they are getting in to.


This, I did it for my drivers and learned some valuable information I had not been advised of by anyone else. After that one week I was scanning ahead, scanning driveways etc which I didn't think much of in my first months of driving.

Highly recommend defense course for new drivers/riders.

+1! Should be compulsory! I've never forgotten the lessons I learned in 1976 from the Defensive Driving Course I went through!

A car mirror can hide a Mack truck long enough to cause a crash, bikes are a lot smaller! Even a bike as big as mine with three headlights and two running lights shining forward can and has been missed leading to close calls. I credit a combination of skill, experience, alertness and sheer luck in being able to say I've been riding 40 years without an accident! No one thing will either save or kill you, it is always a combination of factors. All we can do is endeavour to minimise the risks as far as possible as it depends upon us.

[shrub]

Compulsory defensive riding course for all new riders, targeting hazzard awareness and identification.

I'd expand that and have compulsory training for all road users, or certainly compulsory training for everyone who has lost their license for anything or caused a crash.

As for compulsory rider training, yes, yes and a thousand times yes. I'd like to see some of our ACC levies pumped into that.

[Katman]

As for compulsory rider training, yes, yes and a thousand times yes. I'd like to see some of our ACC levies pumped into that.

Just to clarify, we are talking about defensive rider training.

It has already been noted that the powers that be are against the idea of advanced riding training in the belief that it will only lead to greater risk taking on the road.

[shrub]

need[/i] too then...

Yes, let's take responsibility for ourselves - many of us already do, but instead of waiting till all of us are riding faultlessly, let's start pushing for government action to reduce SMIDSY events in the same way they are so keen to reduce speeding.

I know it's all very PC to say we can't demand change from anyone else until we've all got our act together, but let's get real - that will NEVER happen, so why wait? What are the benefits of sitting back and waiting till all noobs are experts and Peter Powerranger rides his shiny new Gixxer along the Akaroa GP sensibly?

[shrub]

Just to clarify, we are talking about defensive rider training.

It has already been noted that the powers that be are against the idea of advanced riding training in the belief that it will only lead to greater risk taking on the road.

Absolutely, going fast round corners is less important for a noob than learning situational awareness or emergency braking.

[wysper]

A car mirror can hide a Mack truck long enough to cause a crash, bikes are a lot smaller! Even a bike as big as mine with three headlights and two running lights shining forward can and has been missed leading to close calls.

I remember someone on here posting that even when they are in their Ambo running lights and sirens - some people still don't see them.

So it is not only about making yourself visible as a motorcyclist, it is about upskilling all road users in situational awareness. I mean for god's sake, people get hit by trains they didn't see.

[onearmedbandit]

How are you going to convince your average scooter rider who picked it up on a car license and ride in shorts and jandals or a skirt and damn near close to high heels to go on a defensive driving course?


A/ Scooter riders should be have motorcycle licenses instead of just car tickets.
B/ I don't care about how to convince them. If they want to ride they attend the classes.

[onearmedbandit]

Peter Powerranger rides his shiny new Gixxer along the Akaroa GP sensibly?

My name is not Peter.

[Pascal]

I know it's all very PC to say we can't demand change from anyone else until we've all got our act together, but let's get real - that will NEVER happen, so why wait? What are the benefits of sitting back and waiting till all noobs are experts and Peter Powerranger rides his shiny new Gixxer along the Akaroa GP sensibly?

I'm pretty sure you can demand change. So, what is the plan to organise it?

[Mully]

How are you going to convince your average scooter rider who picked it up on a car license and ride in shorts and jandals or a skirt and damn near close to high heels to go on a defensive driving course?

My understanding is that, going forward, people who want to ride a moped will have to do their own BHS. Something to do with a new licence class - 6M or summat.

Can't remember where I read that though - so it could be bollocks.


I'd expand that and have compulsory training for all road users, or certainly compulsory training for everyone who has lost their license for anything or caused a crash.

As for compulsory rider training, yes, yes and a thousand times yes. I'd like to see some of our ACC levies pumped into that.

I'd love to see anyone convicted of a loss-of-licence offence (including demerits) have to do a Defensive Riding Course prior to being allowed to get their plastic back or a work licence.

We pay a Motorcycle "Safety" Levy with our re-licencing costs now - see if MAG or BRONZ will take the idea of compulsory rider training (and refreshers) to ACC to spend some of that money. I suspect if motorcyclists don'r drive this, then the M"S"L will be spent on flouro vests and patronising handouts.

[shrub]

I remember someone on here posting that even when they are in their Ambo running lights and sirens - some people still don't see them.

So it is not only about making yourself visible as a motorcyclist, it is about upskilling all road users in situational awareness. I mean for god's sake, people get hit by trains they didn't see.

Well said.

[riffer]

Just to clarify, we are talking about defensive rider training.

It has already been noted that the powers that be are against the idea of advanced riding training in the belief that it will only lead to greater risk taking on the road.

Le's clarify that... TPTB are against Track Day style advanced training, as in their opinion it teaches faster riding.

They are definitely not AGAINST defensive training.

[StoneY]

Or should we demand that every motorcyclist engages in intensive training when they get their licenses?

This gets my vote
I learned from 'years' of riding...29 years in fact both on and off road (not in that order either)

Yet recently at a Red Baron Extravanganza held at Taupo racetrack I learned a little of how much I still don't know - FUCKING HEAPS!

Riding is in itself a certain level of education based on experience, and that is also only as good as the nature and attitude of the rider.

Learning 'riding technology' is yet again a different level of knowledge and ability opening up, and a competent professional teacher makes a WORLD of difference.

I still remember a mate of mine trying to convince me to counter steer when I had already held my full license for 3 years.... same applied when I listened into the braking lesson Andrew Templeton of Raodsafe was teaching.... was hard to believe what I was being told, but once I tried it, WOW! Skills!!!!

Oh and 3 months later that very lesson I listened into at Taupo saved my Super Duke from needing a new front end (and looked real cool with the back wheel a meter in the air and a Toyaota Corolla 3 inches in front of my wheel)

Training, it works

:yes:

[MSTRS]

Yes, let's take responsibility for ourselves - many of us already do, but instead of waiting till all of us are riding faultlessly, let's start pushing for government action to reduce SMIDSY events in the same way they are so keen to reduce speeding.

I know it's all very PC to say we can't demand change from anyone else until we've all got our act together, but let's get real - that will NEVER happen, so why wait?

+1. Why should 'we' always be the apologists for car drivers who don't see a reason to be bothered taking more care? Pared down to it's simplest form, we have to take all the responsibility and 'they' don't.
What is so wrong about insisting TPTB do something towards fixing this?

[shrub]

Training, it works

:yes:

bloody oath, I try and get some training every year. Do you think driving a car needs training? Is driving a car so much easier that you and I benefit from training after decades of riding, yet car drivers get their license and never need a second more training?

[shrub]

+1. Why should 'we' always be the apologists for car drivers who don't see a reason to be bothered taking more care? Pared down to it's simplest form, we have to take all the responsibility and 'they' don't.
What is so wrong about insisting TPTB do something towards fixing this?

Precisely. What is wrong with demanding ALL road users lift their game? Or are car drivers somehow exempt from taking responsibility for their skills because they're not as vulnerable? If I buy a Volvo can I drive like a dickhead?

I'm sick of bikers being expected to wring their hands apologetically and say "sorry sir, we will try harder to be better riders, in the mean time drive as badly as you like and you hitting me was my fault for not knowing you were going to do a U turn without indicating".

[hellokitty]

Then I suggest they learn in a fucking hurry.

Yes, you have to assume that you are invisible and that everyone is a dickhead. I learnt this the hard way when an old lady drove into me and knocked me off my bike.

[onearmedbandit]

I believe, as others here do, that all road users in NZ need more defensive training. And I don't believe the responsibility should be all ours. But my brother told me something many many years ago, I would've been about 12yrs old, and it's stuck with me throughout the rest of my life.

Simply put, it's 'look after number one mate, because no one else will'. And that's how I lead my life. It would be great if I didn't have to, if I could 100% rely on others to do the right thing. But I can't, no matter how much money is spent, no matter how much training is given to others, no matter what, I will always have to take responsibility for my safety or well-being.

[hellokitty]

Precisely. What is wrong with demanding ALL road users lift their game? Or are car drivers somehow exempt from taking responsibility for their skills because they're not as vulnerable? If I buy a Volvo can I drive like a dickhead?

I'm sick of bikers being expected to wring their hands apologetically and say "sorry sir, we will try harder to be better riders, in the mean time drive as badly as you like and you hitting me was my fault for not knowing you were going to do a U turn without indicating".

eveyone on the road should lift their game but the reality is that if it doesn't affect them (cagers) then they don't care. A prime example is a guy I know that dives a landrover, changes lanes when he wants and expects people to get out the way because he is bigger therefore he wins. It doesn't matter who is right......

[Pascal]

I'm sick of bikers being expected to wring their hands apologetically and say "sorry sir, we will try harder to be better riders, in the mean time drive as badly as you like and you hitting me was my fault for not knowing you were going to do a U turn without indicating".

Okay. You are the most vocal on these boards about it. So what are you doing to get this started? Do you want to arrange a meet and a greet and planning session for people who want to work towards this?

[shrub]

eveyone on the road should lift their game but the reality is that if it doesn't affect them (cagers) then they don't care. A prime example is a guy I know that dives a landrover, changes lanes when he wants and expects people to get out the way because he is bigger therefore he wins. It doesn't matter who is right......

So make it affect them and use the same techniques we use to make people want to buy McDonalds to change their attitudes.

But if he hits someone (which he will), and if it's a motorcyclist this is what will (or should) happen:

1. He'll be charged with careless driving causing injury, lose his license and pay a big fine.
2. He will be liable for damages, plus reperation. When my son was skittled the chick who hit him paid $500.00 reperation
3. He will potentially have to live with having killed someone.

now tell me what is "winning" about the above scenario?

[MSTRS]

I'm sick of bikers being expected to wring their hands apologetically and say "sorry sir, we will try harder to be better riders, in the mean time drive as badly as you like and you hitting me was my fault for not knowing you were going to do a U turn without indicating".

The more we do this, the less reason Mr/s Cager has to bother themselves. Plus, I can see it encouraging (more of) them to actively fail to avoid us, even if we are seen and noted, because if bikers 'always' get out of their way then that type of cager will expect it.

[shrub]

Okay. You are the most vocal on these boards about it. So what are you doing to get this started? Do you want to arrange a meet and a greet and planning session for people who want to work towards this?

Simple: MAG-NZ

[MSTRS]

eveyone on the road should lift their game but the reality is that if it doesn't affect them (cagers) then they don't care. A prime example is a guy I know that dives a landrover, changes lanes when he wants and expects people to get out the way because he is bigger therefore he wins. It doesn't matter who is right......

People like that possibly get away with it for years. In which case, where's the disincentive?
Sooner or later, they will cause a crash. Part of their sentence should be they must ride a motorcycle for a minimum of 2 years before they are allowed back in a car (a small one, to continue hammering in the lesson...)

[Pascal]

Simple: MAG-NZ

Ok, who from MAG do those of us who want to help with this get in touch with?

What I'm getting at is - the last two / three weeks has seen a lot of discussion on this topic, but no discernable action thus far. And while it's all well and good saying "This needs to happen" on an internet forum, it's basically perpetual motion. That desire to do something needs to be translated into real, concrete action.

So I'm assuming you've raised it with MAG with your proposed ideas. Yes?

[Katman]

Precisely. What is wrong with demanding ALL road users lift their game?

There's nothing wrong with it.

But while you're busy 'demanding' things, motorcyclists will continue to be needlessly killed or maimed.

If we start looking at ourselves, change can be effected immediately.

[bogan]

Ok, who from MAG do those of us who want to help with this get in touch with?

What I'm getting at is - the last two / three weeks has seen a lot of discussion on this topic, but no discernable action thus far. And while it's all well and good saying "This needs to happen" on an internet forum, it's basically perpetual motion. That desire to do something needs to be translated into real, concrete action.

So I'm assuming you've raised it with MAG with your proposed ideas. Yes?

we have a member forum on our site, there is a lot going on at the moment so some things will fall through the cracks or be put in the too hard for now basket, but the more active members we got, the less will be missed out :niceone:


There's nothing wrong with it.

But while you're busy 'demanding' things, motorcyclists will continue to be needlessly killed or maimed.

If we start looking at ourselves, change can be effected immediately.

personally I think they should both be done. Demand more training for all, and provide voluntary training for bikers because thats our area of expertise.

[shrub]

If we start looking at ourselves, change can be effected immediately.

I have been looking at myself (not a pretty thing, believe me) for a long time now, and every motorcyclist I know takes their riding and personal safety very seriously. I'm assuming you and everyone else posting here also does that, so what are we waiting for?

[Katman]

+1. Why should 'we' always be the apologists for car drivers who don't see a reason to be bothered taking more care? Pared down to it's simplest form, we have to take all the responsibility and 'they' don't.


I have this picture in my head of a pouting bottom lip.

What you're actually saying John is "why should we have to change if they don't have to?"

Can you not see how ludicrous that sounds considering our degree of vulnerability?

[Katman]

I have been looking at myself (not a pretty thing, believe me) for a long time now, and every motorcyclist I know takes their riding and personal safety very seriously. I'm assuming you and everyone else posting here also does that, so what are we waiting for?

Clearly they don't take it seriously enough.

If they did there would be far less motorcycle accidents.

[shrub]

Clearly they don't take it seriously enough.

If they did there would be far less motorcycle accidents.

I prefer the word crash because accident suggests a degree of randomness that I am sure you agree is not present.

But none of my friends nore I have had a crash in a long, long time and I am sure you haven't as well, so that combined with the lower crash rate per 10,000 kms travelled suggests we're doing our bit and that if we now demand others play the game we'll see the crash rate drop even further.

Tell me Katman, at what point will we be entitled to demand that other road users lift their game?

[Katman]

Tell me Katman, at what point will we be entitled to demand that other road users lift their game?

I've already said there's nothing wrong with expecting a better effort from other road users.

I'm just after more immediate results.

[Latte]

Tell me Katman, at what point will we be entitled to demand that other road users lift their game?

When we've lifted ours? (In their eyes).

[shrub]

I've already said there's nothing wrong with expecting a better effort from other road users.

I'm just after more immediate results.

Good. Then lift your game, improve your own riding and stop crashing. In exchange I promise to stop crashing myself, so that's 2 of us.

[Eyegasm]

Where can I do a defensive course?

I can not do the Defensive driving course, I don't have a car licence.

I really would love a motorcycle based defensive riding course.
Don't care if it lowers the time on restricted or not. Being able to stop and
avoid potential hazards would be a much greater help.

[shrub]

When we've lifted ours? (In their eyes).

I have no idea how car drivers see my riding, and they probably think I'm crazy riding one of those terrible two wheel death machines when I could be so much safer in a nice, comfy Volvo, and I know of no research being undertaken to measure car driver opinion of motorcycle rider skill level. And that would be of little value because they probably think me using my front brake is foolhardy because everyone knows I'll get thrown over the bars, and counter-steering? What crazy biker idea is this?

[James Deuce]

But yea I have to agree with the OP, how can you not see my bright blue bike with a bright light on the front of it??? If you can't you should not be on the road.

Easy. It's been done over and over. Motion Camouflage. Look it up, understand it.

Human psychology. Do a bit of reading around perceived threat response.

Human neurology. Your brain DOES NOT see everything your eye does. There is a LOT of selective editing that goes on to allow you to concentrate on other survival issues. The more experienced you get the greater the editing and the more sub concious processing goes on. This works two ways. I've pulled into a layby and stopped on the Rimutakas more than once without really knowing why only to have a dirty great truck with house sized pipes and the like on the back, taking up both lanes. I subconciously saw it on the road below me. My brain calculated the likely time to impact and my experience told me to get off the road.

The other way it works is when little Johnny buys a Scorpio and starts riding it to work. Granny who has come out of the same intersection at roughly the same time for 40 years has never seen a motorcycle go past the end of the intersection before and pulls out like she always has. She didn't see little Johnny. Literally.

Understand why SMIDSY happens, take responsibility for not putting yourself in the position of being a SMIDSY victim. You can "market" the "solution" all you want, but the reality is that the target audience doesn't care. They're convinced we're the architects of our (motorcyclists) own demise at many levels.

[shrub]

Where can I do a defensive course?

I can not do the Defensive driving course, I don't have a car licence.

I really would love a motorcycle based defensive riding course.
Don't care if it lowers the time on restricted or not. Being able to stop and
avoid potential hazards would be a much greater help.

Contact MAG-NZ and ask to be referred to a motorcycle trainer

[MSTRS]

I have this picture in my head of a pouting bottom lip.

What you're actually saying John is "why should we have to change if they don't have to?"

Can you not see how ludicrous that sounds considering our degree of vulnerability?

Taken in isolation - yes.
My point is that bikers must take safety seriously, and the more we do this, the less incentive (if you will) there is for the 'other lot' to better their awareness of us.
With 70% of bike vs car prangs being the car driver's fault, there is plenty of reason for us to insist they lift their observation and awareness skills...

[MSTRS]

... Granny who has come out of the same intersection at roughly the same time for 40 years has never seen a motorcycle go past the end of the intersection before and pulls out like she always has. She didn't see little Johnny. Literally.

....

You're talking about learned behaviour. Same as the prick in his Landrover alluded to earlier (except his actions were deliberate and malicious).
No reason to accept it and not expect that something be done to counter it.

[shrub]

little Johnny buys a Scorpio and starts riding it to work. Granny who has come out of the same intersection at roughly the same time for 40 years has never seen a motorcycle go past the end of the intersection before and pulls out like she always has. She didn't see little Johnny. Literally.

That's my point exactly. If Granny was educated and made aware of the importance of looking for Johnny, and trained to know that he is out there then does it not stand to reason she will see him? Or if not granny, who may be too old to train, Mary Pajero?


Understand why SMIDSY happens, take responsibility for not putting yourself in the position of being a SMIDSY victim.

You're right, the first stage, which we can all do, is learn to avoid SMIDSY events and take action to minimise their occurance.


You can "market" the "solution" all you want, but the reality is that the target audience doesn't care. They're convinced we're the architects of our (motorcyclists) own demise at many levels.

I disagree. Over the last couple of decades we have seen a major attitudanal shift towards speeding and drink driving simply through very effective marketing. Why can't we do the same towards driver inattention?

[phill-k]

To save you reading all the ramblings below I believe to sort the issues on our roads requires the stick being turned into a bloody great hunk of 4x2 as in the penalties and then we sweeten the carrot with better training, more restrictive licensing ect.

I read with interest the solutions to our problem here, but with little acknowledgement that we are our own keeper, we demand that other road users lift their game and stop doing things that endanger our lives as road users, however the same old same old still has to play a part of this, situational awareness and personal responsibility. I find it hard to believe that someone asked how do you educate scooter riders not to do so in tee-shirt, shorts and jandals, you can't until they experience the consequences, so therefore the training required to have the privilege to ride on our roads is pointedly inadequate. Someone mentioned how does one gain the experience to ride safely, experience is gained only by riding, however inexperienced riders can gain a better understanding by taking some of the training courses available, or as I did from forums like this referrals to books on the subject, videos and observing others and learning from there abilities or in fact inability. I have both the English Police Officers handbook and the Twist of the wrist book and video. Now I'm looking to finding an experienced rider to further tune up my skills, whether that be a paid professional or someone who can assist with a periodic "check" ride.

How many motorcycle deaths on our roads are single vehicle, and how many of those are caused by circumstances that are truly beyond anyone's control or prediction. I would suggest amongst the bike riders of NZ their are a number who also could benefit from being made to be more aware as we ask car drivers to be.

On TV last night a West Australian 20something was booked for DIC whilst disqualified, not his first offence and I can't remember the numbers he had had but his first DIC was after he had knocked and killed a 10yr old off her bike. Again he was suspended and released on bail only to be charged twice more before the nights offence got to court. This admittedly is a bit extreme but obviously the recurring punishment was not a sufficient deterrent.

Yes I want to see better training and all that but until we accept that users on our roads need to have a stick that actually makes them think about their actions when getting behind the wheel we will continue to see the same old same old.

If the above example had had his car confiscated and sold after his second offence, perhaps he would see things a little differently if he committed a third not only does he loss the car but spends time in jail, upping the penalties until the point is reached where the offending will stop.

If the person who does the "U" turn without looking is charged with vehicular homicide, as should any other driver that is guilty of killing someone through error or negligence, and with this comes a penalty regime that hurts then through the publicity and fear of consequences most will change, likewise if you cause injury through error or negligence make the penalties such that most will realise that driving a vehicle is actually a responsibility and privilege not a right.

For the few that continue to endanger lives then the penalty regime must ramp up as further offences are committed.

rant ends:sick:

[James Deuce]

You're talking about learned behaviour. Same as the prick in his Landrover alluded to earlier (except his actions were deliberate and malicious).
No reason to accept it and not expect that something be done to counter it.

If you were trying to teach granny to not run over Girl Guides then you've probably got a point.

Motorcyclists? No hope. We need to look out for Granny. There's nothing you can do to fix that.

[shrub]

I whipped this up

[Pascal]

How many motorcycle deaths on our roads are single vehicle, and how many of those are caused by circumstances that are truly beyond anyone's control or prediction. I would suggest amongst the bike riders of NZ their are a number who also could benefit from being made to be more aware as we ask car drivers to be.

MAG-NZ has a statistics sheet with some discussion on their site. You can find it here (http://www.mag-nz.org/campaigns/motorcycle-safety/statistics).

From the chart motorcyclists were at fault for 53% of the accidents in the 4 year period, and not at fault for 40%. 7% partial fault of the motorcyclist.

Even more interesting.

52% of the riders in accidents had a full license, 21% Learner and 7% restricted.

[James Deuce]

I disagree. Over the last couple of decades we have seen a major attitudanal shift towards speeding and drink driving simply through very effective marketing. Why can't we do the same towards driver inattention?

The issue you face is that the target audience doesn't care about the people they're knocking off motorcycles. We're portrayed as bad guys by every arm of the Government and every type of media reporting labels any accident as "Motorcycle/Motorcyclist collides with (something what did him in)".

Thanks to that Marlon Brando movie there's been 60 years of dedicated misinformation about who motorcyclists are. Good luck changing that perception. You're talking ingrained institutionalised beliefs that motorcyclists deserve it.

I've not seen a shift in attitudes to speeding, particularly amongst motorcyclists, so I don't think you have a point there and drink driving? Really? I think it's got worse, not better.

[Clockwork]

I'd agree with James on this. It's quite easy to not see things you don;t expect to be there, I do it all the time in the domestic situation (much to my wife's amusement)

I'd also admit that there have been occasions (when driving) when I simply haven't seen a vehicle approaching from my left while preparing to turn right at the end of a T junction, because the approaching vehicle was obscured by the window pillar and the relative speed of both vehicles meant that from my POV it didn't appear from behind the pillar.

My fault entirely. I consider myself a pretty good and considerate driver/rider with only one minor accident in nearly 30 years. (as above) but the fact remains that on that occasion "Sorry Mate, I didn't see you"

[shrub]

I've not seen a shift in attitudes to speeding, particularly amongst motorcyclists, so I don't think you have a point there and drink driving? Really? I think it's got worse, not better.

yeah, among motorcyclists there is still a cavalier attitude to speeding but from what I understand the research shows speeding and drink-driving are now seen as not normative behaviour by the majority of people. if attitudes couldn't be changed I'd be out of work and there would be no such thing as an advertisement.

[Edbear]

I whipped this up

Nice bike! Still running the original Bing carbs too by the looks. Some changed them as they could give trouble.

[James Deuce]

yeah, among motorcyclists there is still a cavalier attitude to speeding but from what I understand the research shows speeding and drink-driving are now seen as not normative behaviour by the majority of people. if attitudes couldn't be changed I'd be out of work and there would be no such thing as an advertisement.

You think marketing changes attitudes? I can see where you delusion came from now.

[shrub]

MAG-NZ has a statistics sheet with some discussion on their site. You can find it here (http://www.mag-nz.org/campaigns/motorcycle-safety/statistics).

From the chart motorcyclists were at fault for 53% of the accidents in the 4 year period, and not at fault for 40%. 7% partial fault of the motorcyclist.

Even more interesting.

52% of the riders in accidents had a full license, 21% Learner and 7% restricted.

the stats are interesting. Only 52% of crashing motorcyclists had a full license - I'd be interested to know what percentage of motorcyclists in total have a full license, and of the multiple vehicle accidents (which is what is in discussion here) 55% were the fault of the other driver, 10% shared fault and 35% motorcycle fault.

if we remove the shared fault it changes to 61% other vehicle and 39% motorcycle. In other words, where blame can be clearly attributed to one party it's nearly 2/3 more likely to be the other road user. Is that something we should tolerate?

[shrub]

You think marketing changes attitudes? I can see where you delusion came from now.

People ride Harleys, eat McDonalds and drink Tui - that's all the proof I need that marketing changes attitudes.

[MSTRS]

You think marketing changes attitudes? I can see where you delusion came from now.

Marketing only goes so far. And may be resisted...
Maccas can spend as many millions as they like on marketing and sales campaigns...it'll be a cold day in hell before I would willingly eat any of their garbage.

But if the alternative was worse...well, perhaps I'd be grateful to old Mr Kroc...

[Edbear]

People ride Harleys, eat McDonalds and drink Tui - that's all the proof I need that marketing changes attitudes.

Although they wouldn't if they didn't enjoy it. Marketing works but the products have to meet the expectations or they won't last. In other words, marketing will get people to buy once, the product will get them to buy it again.

Safety is a bit different in that people have to appreciate the value to them of heading the message and the message has to be continually visible and heard.

[Pascal]

if we remove the shared fault it changes to 61% other vehicle and 39% motorcycle. In other words, where blame can be clearly attributed to one party it's nearly 2/3 more likely to be the other road user. Is that something we should tolerate?

If you look at the actual source data things look different though. Quote:


For more serious crashes, the motorcyclist was more likely to have the primary responsibility for the crash. The motorcycle rider had the primary responsibility for nearly three-quarters of fatal motorcycle crashes, but the comparable figure for minor injury crashes was about half (48%).

You can see the differentiation between single / multi-vehicle here (http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycles_09.pdf) on page 4.

Some rather interesting crash type analysis on page 6 as well.

[shrub]

If you look at the actual source data things look different though. Quote:



You can see the differentiation between single / multi-vehicle here (http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycles_09.pdf) on page 4.

Some rather interesting crash type analysis on page 6 as well.

The problem I have with that data is that the number of motorcycle fatalities was statistically too small to build a credible inference, however I take your point and let's assume that the fault is evenly split - doesn't that mean we can save lives by changing the attitudes of BOTH parties? If it was 90% motorcyclist at fault it would be a big ask to change anything, but even if we're equally responsible (which i don't believe we are) then it's important for both parties to change, not just one.

[hellokitty]

There's nothing wrong with it.

But while you're busy 'demanding' things, motorcyclists will continue to be needlessly killed or maimed.

If we start looking at ourselves, change can be effected immediately.

True - you have to look out for yourself because no one else will look out for you.
Yes people need to be educated, but you can't make people give a damn - some people just don't care.
The landrover guy I spoke of before lives his whole life like a prick and treats everyone like crap = and he rides a motorbike as well.

[Pascal]

The problem I have with that data is that the number of motorcycle fatalities was statistically too small to build a credible inference, however I take your point and let's assume that the fault is evenly split - doesn't that mean we can save lives by changing the attitudes of BOTH parties? If it was 90% motorcyclist at fault it would be a big ask to change anything, but even if we're equally responsible (which i don't believe we are) then it's important for both parties to change, not just one.

It is a small set. (50 for 2008) It's just such an interesting set of data that I'd be half tempted to see if they'd give me the raw data. I'd love to spend some of my spare time building a cube on that and seeing what I can extrapolate from it.

What it points me at is that any action needs to be targeted.

To reduce fatalities we need to really look at motorcyclists more than we need to at other road users. It is our own fault we're dying out there and that is the responsibility of all of us. Rear end/obstruction, head on and loss of control are all in the motorcyclists' bucket. Shows that concept of rider education is very important.

But for serious accidents where we're the ones ending up in wheelchairs or spending months in hospital we're going to have to start rapping on a few doors and making sure that the car drivers are aware that we exist. Look at the intersection stats. Only 20 odd % motorcyclist at fault.

They just do not see us.

I'm terrified when contemplating changing the attitudes of cagers. There are so many stereotypes that have a basis in reality. From the "No Engrish" brigade through those that left their brains in their half-hiked up jeans and backwards baseball caps to those that are quite simply oblivious to anything except the shining magnificense of their own existence. Yeah, that's you yakking away on your mobile phone...

I'm tempted to say, how many lanes do you want on that bridge? But will join MAG-NZ tonight and see how things go.

[shrub]

I'm tempted to say, how many lanes do you want on that bridge? But will join MAG-NZ tonight and see how things go.

It would be bloody easy to sit back and say "WTF, I'm OK because I'm careful etc", but i'm neither arrogant enough nor a good enough rider to say that I will be able to avoid every crash that comes my way. Sure, it's been 24 years since my last off (I was racing an XT550 down a gravel road 2 up on my CB900. I take full responsibility for that one), but I know that statistically the more I ride the greater the odds are that I'll have a "Oh fuck, I can't get out of this" moment, and they happen.

And I can still remember the phone call "Hi, your son has had a bike crash and is in an ambulance" when my 16 year old had an off on his pride and joy that he had slogged his guts out saving for, and an off that was a classic SMIDSY that even I would probably have failed. The young woman who hit him was absolutely devastated and in her letter of apology said that she would always see motorbikes now and would never let it happen again. One more safe driver, pity it cost my son his bike and nearly his life.

And thanks for joining MAG.

[shrub]

True - you have to look out for yourself because no one else will look out for you.
Yes people need to be educated, but you can't make people give a damn - some people just don't care.
The landrover guy I spoke of before lives his whole life like a prick and treats everyone like crap = and he rides a motorbike as well.

yep, he is someone who needs to lose his license forever and is no better than a serious recidivist drink driver or for that matter a violent criminal. Some people you will never change, but for every dead head loser like him there are a hundred who can be changed.

[yungatart]

I don't think that this should be an us and them situation.
We as riders need to focus on what we can do to improve our odds, but there is no reason why other road users shouldn't focus on what they can do to better their odds too.

A nationwide campaign that would see all NZ road users targetted for safety initiatives is what is needed, not just the speed kills and drink driving ads. For instance, the intersection raffle wheel series could easily be adapted to include a motorcycle component.

Imagine if every road user lifted their performance even 5%. What a difference that could make!

[MSTRS]

Yes people need to be educated, but you can't make people give a damn - some people just don't care.
The landrover guy I spoke of before lives his whole life like a prick and treats everyone like crap = and he rides a motorbike as well.

Really? Oh well, Perhaps the sentence should include Frontal Lobotomy...

[shrub]

Really? Oh well, Perhaps the sentence should include Frontal Lobotomy...

I'm a gynaechologist (self taught) so that makes me qualified to do it because he's a cunt. I have a Makita hammer drill which would do the job fine.

[shrub]

I don't think that this should be an us and them situation.
We as riders need to focus on what we can do to improve our odds, but there is no reason why other road users shouldn't focus on what they can do to better their odds too.

A nationwide campaign that would see all NZ road users targetted for safety initiatives is what is needed, not just the speed kills and drink driving ads. For instance, the intersection raffle wheel series could easily be adapted to include a motorcycle component.

Imagine if every road user lifted their performance even 5%. What a difference that could make!

You're on the money there mate.

[onearmedbandit]

A 'campaign' isn't going to change 5-50yrs of driving habits though. Nor will it cure driver inattention, driver distraction, driver collapse, driver fatigue.

Edit - yes you will see some change, but over a very very very long time. How long has drink driving been considered anti-social now? 20+yrs? Yet still people do it every day. Sure to a lesser extent than 20yrs ago, but it's still a present hazard on our roads.

[Squiggles]

Easy. It's been done over and over. Motion Camouflage. Look it up, understand it.


Bike Magazine did an article on it a while back, here (http://www.motorcycleinfo.co.uk/index.cfm?fa=contentGeneric.twhhyjzpxapzkouq&pageId=146841) for those interested

[pritch]

People ride Harleys, eat McDonalds and drink Tui - that's all the proof I need that marketing changes attitudes.

I don't do any of those things, so that's proof it doesn't.
(Anyway I thought only rugby league players drank Tui :whistle:)

[cs363]

If we've got our own eyes open and are making allowance for the incompetence of others the vast majority of these incidents would never become an issue.

Dead right - if you don't ride with the attitude that you're invisible to other road users or that everyone is out to get you then there's a damn good chance you'll be having a SMIDSY moment at some stage in your life - probably sooner rather than later.
Hell, some people don't even seem to be able to see a 40 tonne truck, let alone a wee motorcycle.

[PrincessBandit]

So you picked it all up in two weeks of intensive riding around London, good for you. How about the newbie, like me, who commutes and then rides at the weekend, we do not get that level of experience that quickly. .................

I think some of it can depend on your environment that you regularly ride in. Collisions can happen anywhere where there is a moving vehicle; but if your daily commute as a noob is around Auckland then your risk factor is probably significantly higher than if it's in, say, Twizel. If your daily commute is in and around Dorkland then you may have to save your excitement of being on 2 wheels for quieter weekend rides and keep taking the bus or train to work while you build up your riding skills and situational awareness.
My own experience was that when I first started riding I avoided going into the city at all for several months, preferring to head out south where there was less congestion blah blah blah. Sure, there were still corners, gravel spray, suicidal wildlife, other vehicles on the road etc. to watch out for, but the mental overload was nowhere near as great as trying to learn all these things in the confines of the congestion and frenetic pace of inner city streets.

[rastuscat]

I've previously started threads on SMIDSYs, but nobody has come up with a credible way to try to prevent them.

Charlie Lamb (The Prof) presented a paper that covered it, and his best advice is to try to make yourself more visible. That doesn't mean wearing lemon coloured geek suits, but that would also work in part. What Charlie talked about was contrast, like, black jacket with white contrast panels. It's the contrast that counts.

Riding in better positions would also work better, with the x-plane movement being a key.

There's already a world of stuff on the interweb on how to make yourself more visible.

Trouble is, a lot on KB just say that it's up to everyone else to see them, not their issue to be more visible. It's a question of owning the solution, not the problem.

Anyway, SMIDSYs happen every day. I attended a crash this morning where an elderly todger had overtaken a cyclist, then turned left and knocked the 15 year old girl to the footpath. 2 lost teeth and a world of facials is the penalty for her. Thank (insert whatever word you use for God) she had a helmet on, hers was partially trashed.

Just accept that it's a physiological fact that someone can look at you and not see you, as the messages the eye sees are not always translated by the brain as objects.

It's reality.

So are donuts.

[hellokitty]

I'm a gynaechologist (self taught) so that makes me qualified to do it because he's a cunt. I have a Makita hammer drill which would do the job fine.

sweet- I will p.m you his address...... but you may have to join the queue of people that hate him.

[mattian]

Sorry Mate I Didn't See You

and TPTB ?

[bogan]

and TPTB ?

nah they aren't sorry at all, the bastards :angry:

[mattian]

nah they aren't sorry at all, the bastards :angry:

huh?.... im asking... WTF does TPTB mean?

[bogan]

huh?.... im asking... WTF does TPTB mean?

the powers that be, generally refers to politicians

[PrincessBandit]

huh?.... im asking... WTF does TPTB mean?

The Powers that Be. you'll get used to it.

[shrub]

and TPTB ?


The Powers That Be

[cheshirecat]

So you picked it all up in two weeks of intensive riding around London, good for you. How about the newbie, like me, who commutes and then rides at the weekend, we do not get that level of experience that quickly. And how about the first day or two out on your own. Katman, I have read so much of this from you but very little in the way of practical help. I think what Shrub is asking for is a little bit of help from the govnt to educate car drivers about how vulnerable we can be. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZwLVIq9-Ysk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZwLVIq9-Ysk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> I remember this advert from when I was a kid and the advice has always stuck with me. Not sure they were ever shown in NZ but maybe it is time to run a similar type of safety campaign instead of every ad being about drink driving.

Like Katman it took me a couple of weeks to 'aclimatise' to DR and there was a lot of incentive to get it right - like a lot. The nearest I came to it was UK Polce motorcycle course three of us took some way back. There was police bike front and rear and you had to be really precise like not letting the centerline of the tyre cross the inside ridge of a yellow line - at 70mph through the twisties. We were exhausted after 60 minutes since you were tested on absolute pride and exactitude on ROADCRAFT and being able to push your progress and handling to the letter of the law - some 300 pages of it last time I looked.

I think this is a key. An official test of course for motorcycle roadcraft early on day one, it could be fun as well.
We can't provide DR bootcamp experience (the attrition rate could prove a trifle off putting and ACC wouldn't pay for 5000 grumpy anti DR london cabbies) but there are resources (but not the will - ACC are you really interested in saving lives and injuries or just talking the talk. i mean cough up a couple of mil, it's not as if you're exactly short of dosh and do the job properly) at test level instead of the 1960's patronising wolley thinking badly written confusing dubious test we have now.

I've been helping (and still am) someone starting in bikes and its been a real journey over a couple of years as to how to get them experience before experience (lack of) gets them.

Wow I feel better now.

[chasio]

Gaps by junctions in the (up to 4km) of stationary traffic on Onewa Road are major SMIDSY hotspots: a bike in the (nearside) transit lane is not a bus, therefore it does not register to many intersection users.

SMIDSY is the reason you'll see me weaving from side to side in my lane and sometimes standing up on the pegs for a second or two (provided I am confident I can do it far enough away to be seen and then be sitting down again before I'd need to brake).

To go back to the OP: SMIDSY seems really to be SMYNDE (Sorry Mate, You're Not Dangerous Enough), doesn't it?

[Edit] And yes, I'd support compulsory defensive riding training before a license is issued, personally; and for convicted transgressors as well.

Chasio

[Berries]

To be honest I don't care what training TPTB enforce to stop the SMIDSY moments. I will never trust a car, or other bike for that matter, not to do the one thing that you don't want it to do. Yes everyone could be better driver/riders but mistakes/fuck ups call them what you will, they'll still happen. We are smaller so lets face it, if people pull out in front of trains then they are going to keep pulling out in front of bikes regardless of what course they are forced to go on. Look after number one.

Is there such a thing as SMIDSY ? Had a nice wave from a Ford Falcon on the way home from work last night after he had pulled out on me and come to a screeching halt fully across my lane when he finally saw me. I waved back. I pretty much knew he was going to do it so was ready. Shit happens, it's NWGWUAI.

[baptist]

Like Katman it took me a couple of weeks to 'aclimatise' to DR and there was a lot of incentive to get it right - like a lot. The nearest I came to it was UK Polce motorcycle course three of us took some way back. There was police bike front and rear and you had to be really precise like not letting the centerline of the tyre cross the inside ridge of a yellow line - at 70mph through the twisties. We were exhausted after 60 minutes since you were tested on absolute pride and exactitude on ROADCRAFT and being able to push your progress and handling to the letter of the law - some 300 pages of it last time I looked.

I think this is a key. An official test of course for motorcycle roadcraft early on day one, it could be fun as well.
We can't provide DR bootcamp experience (the attrition rate could prove a trifle off putting and ACC wouldn't pay for 5000 grumpy anti DR london cabbies) but there are resources (but not the will - ACC are you really interested in saving lives and injuries or just talking the talk. i mean cough up a couple of mil, it's not as if you're exactly short of dosh and do the job properly) at test level instead of the 1960's patronising wolley thinking badly written confusing dubious test we have now.

I've been helping (and still am) someone starting in bikes and its been a real journey over a couple of years as to how to get them experience before experience (lack of) gets them.

Wow I feel better now.

I did a Competent rider course with riderskills the first day I put my bike on the road, loved it and got a lot out of it, so I agree a better training course would help and would be fun to do. My point I guess is that it should be for all road users. The standard on NZ roads is to be frank crap.

As for London Cabbies :rolleyes:... I was 30 when I moved out of the smoke, I push biked a lot then as well, so trust me when I say cabbies hate everything else on the road:laugh:

I had a friend who did DR work, he ended up under one of the black cabs, the cabby was just not prepared to merge properly but was prepared to run a biker over, I think if memory serves it was in Glass House Street.

[mashman]

I've previously started threads on SMIDSYs, but nobody has come up with a credible way to try to prevent them.


Credible? The technology exists :yes:... aircraft attack software to identify the "local threat". Laser tracking to guage "threat" distance and speed. Auditory/Visual warning system to alert driver to danger. Credible? i'd say so. Cost prohibitive :rofl: hmmmmm perhaps a little pricey.

[MSTRS]

When all is said and done, we are each of us responsible for our own safety. The more alert we are, and the more skilled we are at recognising threats before they become critical (and taking the right counter actions) the safer we will be. It goes without saying that we also have a duty of care to not endanger other road users by our actions.
But none of that excuses other motorists from doing the very same.
It is obviously a huge problem as to how the message might be got through to car drivers. The very few that 'take on' a truck or train face the same lesson in physics that we do, so chances are they won't need a second lesson :no:
But for the rest, just what can be done, short of ad campaigns and a better standard of driving instruction/licencing?
Edit: - Better cars have improved occupant safety to the point where those occupants are so cushioned from the external realities of driving, that they are becoming increasingly divorced from the whole process. So their own vulnerability is unlikely to form part of lifting their game.

[scumdog]

huh?.... im asking... WTF does TPTB mean?

The Bikers That Bitch??:blink:

[baptist]

Credible? The technology exists :yes:... aircraft attack software to identify the "local threat". Laser tracking to guage "threat" distance and speed. Auditory/Visual warning system to alert driver to danger. Credible? i'd say so. Cost prohibitive :rofl: hmmmmm perhaps a little pricey.

It is not just the cost, where am I going to fit a Milan fly by wire anti tank missile to my scorpio?:laugh::nya: .... or was that not what you meant:blink::doh:

[Pascal]

Better cars have improved occupant safety to the point where those occupants are so cushioned from the external realities of driving, that they are becoming increasingly divorced from the whole process. So their own vulnerability is unlikely to form part of lifting their game.

That makes a lot of sense.

[MSTRS]

That makes a lot of sense.

Still only part of the picture.
Kiwis have a (well-deserved?) reputation for being extremely selfish and aggressive behind the wheel. The old 'I'm bullet-proof and you lot can kiss my arse'. Unfortunately, the whole of society is moving in that direction (I blame the parents :innocent: )
A lot of the problem is that so often there is no 'real' consequence for wrong-doing.
Back in the day, when one could expect a smack from Mu/Dad, or strap/cane at school, for doing something 'bad', there was a short, sharp and painful reminder to behave. Taken to it's logical conclusion, the pain (or threat of through experience) tended to act as a moderator on behaviour. Driving reflects this, in that if the occupant can't get hurt, there's no moderator effect) If a driver's actions lead to pain for someone else....well, the driver may not even care. Because the pain wasn't his.
Perhaps society has to change, before we see drivers taking the process seriously....

[Pascal]

If a driver's actions lead to pain for someone else....well, the driver may not even care. Because the pain wasn't his.

That sounds a lot like Monkeyspheres (http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html).

[MSTRS]

And this post (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/131159-Cyclist-accidents-v-motorcycle-accidents?p=1129916509#post1129916509)

[mashman]

It is not just the cost, where am I going to fit a Milan fly by wire anti tank missile to my scorpio?:laugh::nya: .... or was that not what you meant:blink::doh:

Just gotta make smaller missiles :shifty:



short of ad campaigns and a better standard of driving instruction/licencing


Ad campaigns aren't good enough, 20 - 30 seconds to get what across? That you could kill someone... pretty sure we all understand that yet carry on regardless.

I still maintain that TV is the "only" real way of grabbing the attention. If people are given an entertaining "show" and part of that show contains the top 10 accidents for the month, perhaps drivers/riders will pay a little more attention when they come to a known "danger" situations, such as T-Junctions. If you don't tell people what to look out for, how can you expect them to take care?

Think of it along the same lines as those guys who only ever stay in a Hotel on the 6th floor or lower. They're chances if living, in case of fire, rise hugely because they have mitigated the risk. Sure some may well still die, but most will, likely, escape with their lives...

You have to let the people know in order for them to realise the risk :yes:. Not just some baldy twat on a chair spinning a wheel and hoping for the best... kinda sums up the govt policy on injury prevention

[MSTRS]

I still maintain that TV is the "only" real way of grabbing the attention. If people are given an entertaining "show" and part of that show contains the top 10 accidents for the month, perhaps drivers/riders will pay a little more attention when they come to a known "danger" situations, such as T-Junctions.
So - something like the current 'show' with Murphy? But remove the naff, patronising approach, and replace the amateur staged stuff with real prangs, real blood and broken people?


If you don't tell people what to look out for, how can you expect them to take care?
You have to let the people know in order for them to realise the risk
Isn't that stuff taught at licence level? I'm doubting it...but it should be a major component.


Not just some baldy twat on a chair spinning a wheel and hoping for the best... kinda sums up the govt policy on injury prevention
Trouble is, people are so accustomed to being told what to do at every turn, they've lost the ability to think for themselves.

[mashman]

So - something like the current 'show' with Murphy? But remove the naff, patronising approach, and replace the amateur staged stuff with real prangs, real blood and broken people?


Pretty much (although i'd quite like Clarkson and mob to do it in their "style" :yes:). I'd certainly throw in some real life testimony from all walks of life, chuck in real photos of people in various states etc... Show people what's real, not what could happen to someone.



Isn't that stuff taught at licence level? I'm doubting it...but it should be a major component.


Not really, No. Conceptualising something that is being explained is no substitute for pics and the experiences of others, we know that. For instance.

Watch out for T-Junctions, they're really bad.
or
Watch out for T-Junctions, they've already caused X incidents, Y Deaths and Z Injuries, that costs A amount of money and adds an extra B in terms of ACC levy...

Which of the above two would you prefer? Which of the two above are explained to you when "learning"?



Trouble is, people are so accustomed to being told what to do at every turn, they've lost the ability to think for themselves.

:rofl: I agree, 100%... Thing is, we all switch or get distracted at some point or other... and as has been mentioned before, being wrapped in a safety cocoon does noone any good...

[scumdog]

Isn't that stuff taught at licence level? I'm doubting it...but it should be a major component.


It SHOULD be, and at a cost.

But boy, listen to the whinging and screaming if mandatory pre-licence training was introduced and a test was required to be passed BEFORE being able to apply for a licence. ("not fair, I'm too dumb to pass")

[MSTRS]

... ("not fair, I'm too dumb to pass")

Instead, we have the inclusive, no winners, no losers, as long as you participate, system. Here's your licence...

[slofox]

("not fair, I'm too dumb to pass")

To which the reply should be "If you're too dumb to pass, you're too dumb to drive. Tough shit, sonny - no licence for YOU!"

[slofox]

Re-reading the OP just now...

It's not just bikes that some people "don't see as a threat". Some people take the same approach with a car. And just plain "don't see" it. Deliberately I think at times.

example:

On the way to work this morning in the cage, passing round a roundabout and a little old lady in her car decides she doesn't have to stop for me and drives into the circle right in front of me - necessitating a complete stop from me to avoid hitting the stupid old bitch. Interesting thing was, she DID NOT LOOK AT ME AT ALL. Even when I blasted the Stebel Nautilus at her, she studiously avoided looking. I presume on the premise that "if I don't see it, it isn't there".

I see that behaviour all the time no matter what my conveyance is.

[steelphoenix]

Re-reading the OP just now...

It's not just bikes that some people "don't see as a threat". Some people take the same approach with a car. And just plain "don't see" it. Deliberately I think at times.

example:

On the way to work this morning in the cage, passing round a roundabout and a little old lady in her car decides she doesn't have to stop for me and drives into the circle right in front of me - necessitating a complete stop from me to avoid hitting the stupid old bitch. Interesting thing was, she DID NOT LOOK AT ME AT ALL. Even when I blasted the Stebel Nautilus at her, she studiously avoided looking. I presume on the premise that "if I don't see it, it isn't there".

I see that behaviour all the time no matter what my conveyance is.
I could not agree with this statement more. I drive a dark grey Ford Festiva (tiny little cage, in a not very noticeable colour) around Auckland, and at least once every two months I come to a screeching halt because some idiot in an SUV "didn't notice me". More than once I've had to leap lanes on the motorway in a very unsafe manner in order to not be run into by SUVs/BMWs/trucks - and I was pootling along in the same lane for the last two minutes!

Re-reading the OP's post, I agree that increasing trained responses and understanding will help reduce injuries and fatalities - we need to spread the message. :yes:

I've recently taken a defensive driving course, and will be taking defensive riding courses. I want to be a better road user, and I see no reason why other road users shouldn't raise their game too. Training and education FTW.

[James Deuce]

p reduce injuries and fatalities - we need to spread the message. :yes:

I've recently taken a defensive driving course, and will be taking defensive riding courses. I want to be a better road user, and I see no reason why other road users shouldn't raise their game too. Training and education FTW.

What incentive is there? None that I can see. Injuring or killing a motorcyclist is a win-win for the Govt and a seemingly co-opted media, and the person driving the "x" in "A motorcycle collided with an "x" and killed the silly rider" will most often not suffer any injuries except for the indignity of lodging an insurance claim.

It's simpler to just ban bikes than it is to expect anyone to fork money out to train people to look for motorcycles.

In regard to training motorists every Police Traffic Superintendent for the last 10 years has publicly denounced rider and driver training as simply promoting faster, more deadly accidents. Both the Police and the Government have been steadfast in refusing to fund or promote rider or driving training beyond that necessary to earn a scratchy licence.

[slofox]

What incentive is there?

How about "not getting squashed"..? That's why I ride and drive defensively - purely for self preservation.

And possibly the fact that if I killed someone on the road - at fault or not - I would have trouble living with myself for the rest of my natural...

[James Deuce]

How about "not getting squashed"..? That's why I ride and drive defensively - purely for self preservation.

And possibly the fact that if I killed someone on the road - at fault or not - I would have trouble living with myself for the rest of my natural...

You silly old bugger. I was meaning, "What incentive is there for other motorists to get their skills up so there are less SMIDSYs?"

Mmmkaaay?

:)

Plus having been on the receiving end of life threatening injuries at the hands of both a SMIDSY and a lazy farmer, people can and do live with themselves and are quite happy to blame a motorcyclist for their injuries simply because the riders are silly enough to get on a bike in the first place.

[Katman]

In regard to training motorists every Police Traffic Superintendent for the last 10 years has publicly denounced rider and driver training as simply promoting faster, more deadly accidents. Both the Police and the Government have been steadfast in refusing to fund or promote rider or driving training beyond that necessary to earn a scratchy licence.

That's why any training scheme that we as motorcyclists push for in our own interest has to be designed solely as a defensive riding course.

[slofox]

You silly old bugger. I was meaning, "What incentive is there for other motorists to get their skills up so there are less SMIDSYs?"

Mmmkaaay?



Fair enough...:sunny:

[JohnR]

Compulsory defensive riding course for all new motorists, targeting hazzard awareness and identification.


It's not a silver bullet, but it will help new motorists realise just what they are getting in to.

This is better...

[PrincessBandit]

.......... Interesting thing was, she DID NOT LOOK AT ME AT ALL. Even when I blasted the Stebel Nautilus at her, she studiously avoided looking. I presume on the premise that "if I don't see it, it isn't there".

I see that behaviour all the time no matter what my conveyance is.

An extremely frequent occurrence. I've lost count of the times I've blasted the horn (car and bike) at selectively blind motorists and they sit staring wildly straight ahead of them so as to not see you. The body language is always the same - tense hands on their steering wheel, rigid arms and hunched forward to the steering wheel, nose almost touching their damned windscreen!

[onearmedbandit]

This is better...

I'm not arguing with you, however I will argue that no matter how much training you throw at everyone, YOU will always be responsible for YOUR safety.

Instead of SMIDSY, how about NPMISY.

[shrub]

I'm not arguing with you, however I will argue that no matter how much training you throw at everyone, YOU will always be responsible for YOUR safety.

Instead of SMIDSY, how about NPMISY.

And part of being responsible for my own safety is demanding that the external factors that place me at risk are attended to. Our beloved leaders are very keen to see the road toll drop, so here's a way that we could see lives saved.

Getting back to my original argument, I do not believe that the majority of people who "failed to see" another vehicle then subsequently hit them didn't see that vehicle. I believe they saw it, but their subconscious brain didn't send the right signals to the conscious brain, therefore it's a simple matter of reprogramming them by making people aware of the ramifications of hitting smeone else.

I know the modern way is to be passive and put up with things the way they are, but why should we put up with the degree of apalling driving that I see every day just because we can drive defensively? I can lock my house, so does that mean the police should stop policing and prosecuting burglaries?

[onearmedbandit]

Like I said, I'm not arguing that there is room for improvement across the entire spectrum, just that I will always rely on my abilities first and foremost, before I assume that someone else is doing their very best to avoid causing an accident.

There will always be burglars. But they tend to go for the easy jobs. So if you only have a lock on your door, and expect that the police will have done their job and taken care of the burglars already, well expect to get burgled. However, if you have an electrified boundary, 5 big fuck off dogs, motion sensors attached to traps, reinforced entry points to your dwelling, then the chances you'll get burgled are far less than the guy up the road.

For most of us however, that isn't practical. So instead we have contents insurance. We get burgled, it sucks, but insurance will replace your material items. Now you can also have insurance on your bike and gear, but I've yet to come across an insurance policy that ensures you will suffer no physical harm. So when it comes to riding, I have that electrified fence, I have those 5 hungry dogs, I have the motion sensors etc. It sucks that I have to do this, but I'll say it again, no matter how much you improve other road users you need to be responsible for your own safety, to which I know you agree.

In an ideal world something would happen immediately to improve everyones attention etc when using our roads. But seeing as that won't happen overnight, or ever for that matter (to a level where the average person - ie not a skilled professional- can command a 1-3 tonne missle on the road) then I'll change what I can, my attention.

To sum up, yes I believe that all road users in NZ need to be made more aware of the attention skills required to drive a vehicle. I believe that our licensing system is too lax. I believe that the vast majority of drivers are more concerned with their shopping lists/radio station/stomach/sex life/bills/work/home life/children/etc then they are with operating a vehicle in close proximity to other vehicles speeding towards them separated by a white line. I believe that the government is more interested in catching speeders then actually educating drivers (one wins voters, one loses them).

However, most importantly I believe fuck all is going to be done about this. And most certainly not by this afternoon. So instead of devoting any of my decreasing grey matter to what I'm hoping others might be doing, I concentrate on what I'm doing.

[imac]

Perhaps the fault lies with our no fault ACC scheme. It has lead to a mindset that says, I don’t have to pay for my mistakes and I can’t get sued so I will do the f*** what I want. Bring some individual accountability into it and perhaps we will see a change in attitude

[shrub]

"A Whakatane motorcyclist has died after a crash in Bay of Plenty yesterday. Police said the motorcyclist was travelling towards Rotorua about 3pm when he collided with a car that was coming out of a driveway in Awakeri, a farming area southwest of Whakatane.

The motorcyclist was airlifted to Tauranga Hospital with serious injuries and died early last night, police said. The driver of the car, the sole occupant, was taken to Whakatane Hospital with minor injuries.

Police were investigating but did not believe alcohol or speed were factors." http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10690009

SMIDSY strikes again. I bet the car driver is wishing like hell they'd stopped and looked a little more carefully.

[onearmedbandit]

That's terrible to hear. Did the car not stop at all when turning out their driveway? I know whenever I see a car coming out a driveway I pucker up a bit. Brakes are covered and I'm watching the car like a hawk to try to establish it's intentions. If I can't, I'll come to almost a complete halt.

Fuck don't get me wrong, I'm not a perfect rider. I still make mistakes. Everyday. But there are flags I look for, and driveways are one of them, especially on the open road.

[James Deuce]

"A Whakatane motorcyclist has died after a crash in Bay of Plenty yesterday. Police said the motorcyclist was travelling towards Rotorua about 3pm when he collided with a car that was coming out of a driveway in Awakeri, a farming area southwest of Whakatane.

The motorcyclist was airlifted to Tauranga Hospital with serious injuries and died early last night, police said. The driver of the car, the sole occupant, was taken to Whakatane Hospital with minor injuries.

Police were investigating but did not believe alcohol or speed were factors." http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10690009

SMIDSY strikes again. I bet the car driver is wishing like hell they'd stopped and looked a little more carefully.

"Police said the motorcyclist was travelling towards Rotorua about 3pm when he collided with a car"

What a crock of shit.

The following is not a crock of shit.

"Police said the driver exited a driveway onto the road without looking, directly into the path of a motorcyclist traveling toward Rotorua, around 3pm."

This blatant anti-motorcycling, "haha another motorcyclist died" campaign has got to stop.

[shrub]

"Police said the motorcyclist was travelling towards Rotorua about 3pm when he collided with a car"


Poor car being hit by a motorcyclist.

That's why we need to change our attitude and stop being so fucking apologetic and passive. Yes, of course we ride as defensively as possible and do everything in our power to avoid crashing, but we need to stop blaming ourselves for the fault of others.

[James Deuce]

Poor car being hit by a motorcyclist.

That's why we need to change our attitude and stop being so fucking apologetic and passive. Yes, of course we ride as defensively as possible and do everything in our power to avoid crashing, but we need to stop blaming ourselves for the fault of others.

You're confusing blame with responsibility. It doesn't matter who is to blame when you're dead.

You CAN take responsibility for avoiding "accidents" like that one. "Apologetic and passive"? Sensible and alive more like.

[rastuscat]

You don't have to own the problem to be safer.

Everyone blames everyone else for the problem, but basically it doesn't matter whose fault the problem is, it's the biker who comes off worst.

Own the solution. Ride defensively.

[James Deuce]

It isn't a problem. It's how it is.

[shrub]

You're confusing blame with responsibility. It doesn't matter who is to blame when you're dead.

You CAN take responsibility for avoiding "accidents" like that one. "Apologetic and passive"? Sensible and alive more like.

No, I'm not. I take full responsibility for everything to do with my motorcycling, including the fact that I ride the things (which are innately dangerous), but I do feel comfortable levelling some blame at TPTB that aren't addressing a major hazard that impacts on MY safety.

And no matter how incredibly careful and skilled I am, somewhere out there is a crash I can't avoid. I just hope like hell I'm never where it is.

[MSTRS]

The way these things are invariably reported makes it a problem.
The not-so-subtle meaning being that motorcyclists are always in the wrong. As a non-motorcyclist once said to me "You guys are the ones killing yourselves on those death traps. It's always in the papers."

[shrub]

You don't have to own the problem to be safer.

Everyone blames everyone else for the problem, but basically it doesn't matter whose fault the problem is, it's the biker who comes off worst.

Own the solution. Ride defensively.

And demand that others stop placing us at risk through their actions; thereby reducing the risk of motorcycling. If cyclists can do it, why can't we?

[MSTRS]

This is going in circles....
We must be responsible for our own safety. But we also have the right to call for improvements in the shocking driving standards in this country.
N'est pas?

[Bald Eagle]

And demand that others stop placing us at risk through their actions; thereby reducing the risk of motorcycling. If cyclists can do it, why can't we?

...because we don't wear lycra :gob:

[onearmedbandit]

This is going in circles....
We must be responsible for our own safety. But we also have the right to call for improvements in the shocking driving standards in this country.
N'est pas?

This sums it up fine for me.

[shrub]

This sums it up fine for me.

Ditto. I have a few weeks of time having just handed in my thesis, so will be looking at how we can lobby for these things