Maybe education is not the answer to economic growth

[Winston001]

This book is pretty counter-intuitive for me but I'm having to revise my opinions. I'm a firm believer in education because an informed society becomes a better society. New ideas spring up and the standard of living improves.

Weeell.......maybe the cart comes before the horse. Alison Wolfe a professor of education at London University has done a study and come to the conclusion that economic development comes first. Better education is made possible by the strong economy.........but that comes afterwards.

So sending our children to poly-techs and universities at all costs could be a mistake. This is completely contrary to most OECD planning and a bit flabbergasting.

http://www.la-articles.org.uk/eoe.htm

[Woodman]

Actually I am all for dumbing down the population to reduce economic gowth.

Economic growth = population growth = pollution = used up resources = the end.

[phill-k]

Life was much simpler when education was for the privileged, lets face it it hasn't helped anyone the masses finding out just how much our gentry like to screw us and all we have created - just thinking about sir fkn r Douglas and his $44grand trips last year on the tax payer even though he has already screwed NZ to the point that he couldn't spend all his ill gotten gains.

Fuck the economy educate the masses so that we don't just believe all we are told - Pike River Mine disaster comes to mind.:woohoo:

[Motu]

So the wealthy breed more? Sounds like we need more poor people then.

[twinbruva]

So the wealthy breed more? Sounds like we need more poor people then.

Like Haiti?

[bogan]

Actually I am all for dumbing down the population to reduce economic gowth.

Economic growth = population growth = pollution = used up resources = the end.

shoot the unemployed, then you just get economic growth, and smart/hardworking people, we will colonize mars and divert asteroids into our orbit for mineral wealth in a matter of years :innocent:

[steve_t]

Less people seeking higher education may aid a country's economic development but with any given generation, do you really want to discourage your child from gaining qualifications which, on average, would lead them to a higher income and standard of living for themselves, to benefit the country as a whole? Sorry for the long sentence.
How about keeping education and keeping advanced research going, but telling everyone that no matter what profession they are in, no matter what qualifications they have, that the maximum income they can receive is eg. $70,000 and any more that they would have earned would be diverted to benefit the country's economy. Oops, would that be labelled as communism? :innocent:

[Dave Lobster]

Oops, would that be labelled as communism? :innocent:

Obviously.. because the smart people would all leave.

Wouldn't it be a better idea if people that don't go down the degree route don't get stigmatised for it??

[Winston001]

Less people seeking higher education may aid a country's economic development but with any given generation, do you really want to discourage your child from gaining qualifications which, on average, would lead them to a higher income and standard of living for themselves, to benefit the country as a whole?

I don't think she is saying we shouldn't have higher education. Instead she is challenging the widespread assumption that high education automatically leads to high economic growth. For example Switzerland has lowish university participation but the strongest economy in the world.

Egypt increased education from 1980.....and became slightly worse off on the poverty index.


How about keeping education and keeping advanced research going, but telling everyone that no matter what profession they are in, no matter what qualifications they have, that the maximum income they can receive is eg. $70,000 and any more that they would have earned would be diverted to benefit the country's economy. Oops, would that be labelled as communism? :innocent:

Because as Dave says, they'd leave.

But I do agree with you. Already we are seeing university graduates working at low-end jobs because there aren't any openings for them. What is likely to happen is salaries will diminish for the better educated because everyone else will be better educated too.

[Pascal]

Less people seeking higher education may aid a country's economic development but with any given generation, do you really want to discourage your child from gaining qualifications which, on average, would lead them to a higher income and standard of living for themselves, to benefit the country as a whole?

Yes, because education for "higher income and standard of living" is meaningless and putting the cart before the horse. It essentially creates a group of people with shiny pieces of paper and no real skill.

It would be better to encourage children to follow their aptitudes and interests first; to see what type of future they can build from that and to seek education when they wish to further their knowledge. See if they can build something - create something new - follow their interests.

And not just blindly follow the "study - work - die" pattern.

[mashman]

shoot the unemployed, then you just get economic growth, and smart/hardworking people, we will colonize mars and divert asteroids into our orbit for mineral wealth in a matter of years


Shoot those that are incarcerated and you may get the unemployed into work under threat of death... I dunno, such a waste to shoot the unemployed :shifty: who are we gonna test our fricken lazers on :)


Yes, because education for "higher income and standard of living" is meaningless and putting the cart before the horse. It essentially creates a group of people with shiny pieces of paper and no real skill.

It would be better to encourage children to follow their aptitudes and interests first; to see what type of future they can build from that and to seek education when they wish to further their knowledge. See if they can build something - create something new - follow their interests.

And not just blindly follow the "study - work - die" pattern.

What he said.

[Banditbandit]

Yes, because education for "higher income and standard of living" is meaningless and putting the cart before the horse. It essentially creates a group of people with shiny pieces of paper and no real skill.

It would be better to encourage children to follow their aptitudes and interests first; to see what type of future they can build from that and to seek education when they wish to further their knowledge. See if they can build something - create something new - follow their interests.

And not just blindly follow the "study - work - die" pattern.

I agree .. we have created a society which has fetishized qualifications.

A job you would have once got off the street (and done really well) now requires a certificate .. a job that required a certificate now requires a diploma and what was once a diploma job now requires a degree ...

People are struggling to sit in classrooms and pass courses when they would actually be very good at the job ... (I've even seen a unit standard for "Mucking Out a Stable" .. this is a course for shovelling shit Fa Gawd's Sake !!!!)

And consequently, with higher qualifications they want to be paid more money - but they haven't done anything to earn employer more money - just got a bit of paper that says they might be able to do a particlular job (I don't believe bits of paper - only what I see people actually do ... some of the PhDs I've worked with are a complete waste of space ...)

And many of them at Uni are taught by people who left school, went to Uni .. wound up as lecturers and have never left - taught by people stuck in the Ivory Tower with no real knowledge of much outside the academic bullshit environment.

So the cost of labour goes up, but not the real economic earnings of employers.

Now, I believe that education is the way out of the poverty trap and the drugs/alcohol/crime cycle - but I don't believe that education, as such, will improve the economy overall - education trains people to fit in - it stifles creativity. The best entrepreneurial minds have probably not been to university where they were told their ideas wouldn't work (Bob Jones disagreed with his lecturers, who told him that if he thought his ideas would work, why didn't he try them - so he did ...with the obvious results ...)

And the "Information Society" is bullshit ... it doesn't create the jobs where the ideas are ... for instance, the people in Silicon Valley may well have earned lots of money designing computer chips ... but the peope making them are all employed in Asia - especially India ... so Americans miss out on these jobs and their economy suffers ...

I could go on .. but you get the idea ...

(PS, I work in a tertiary institute ... bit ironic - but it pays for my bikes, my house and my boats ... and I was 38-years-old before I got into the business)

[steve_t]

I don't think she is saying we shouldn't have higher education. Instead she is challenging the widespread assumption that high education automatically leads to high economic growth. For example Switzerland has lowish university participation but the strongest economy in the world.



Sorry, the point of my post wasn't clear enough. What I was saying is people, in general, don't give a crap about their country's economic growth. What they currently want for themselves and their children is the best quality of life and on average the best way to achieve this is through gaining qualifications. I don't dispute that a higher percentage of people seeking higher education would remove a significant proportion from the productive workforce and thus the economy would suffer.


Yes, because education for "higher income and standard of living" is meaningless and putting the cart before the horse. It essentially creates a group of people with shiny pieces of paper and no real skill.

It would be better to encourage children to follow their aptitudes and interests first; to see what type of future they can build from that and to seek education when they wish to further their knowledge. See if they can build something - create something new - follow their interests.

And not just blindly follow the "study - work - die" pattern.

I wholeheartedly agree. I know so many people who have graduated in the last 10 years who are now in jobs that have nothing to do with their degrees/diplomas. What a waste of time and money that was for them! And the reason they couldn't get jobs in their fields was because there are so many other people that did the same qualification. The workforce definitely needs to have a wide range of people in it with different skills to occupy different roles. I also agree that it's crazy for people to go to university just for the sake of it, but speaking to a lot of school leavers, it's amazing how many of them have no idea what they want to do with their lives. Don't they have career advisors in schools anymore?

[Banditbandit]

I also agree that it's crazy for people to go to university just for the sake of it, but speaking to a lot of school leavers, it's amazing how many of them have no idea what they want to do with their lives. Don't they have career advisors in schools anymore?

I've never known what I wanted to do with my life - still don't - and I'm 55 ...

I wouldn't worry about an 18 or 19 year old not knowing ... hell they still have raging hormones to worry about ...

[MisterD]

I agree .. we have created a society which has fetishized qualifications.

A job you would have once got off the street (and done really well) now requires a certificate .. a job that required a certificate now requires a diploma and what was once a diploma job now requires a degree ...

Exactly. The recent (ie last 15-20 year) drive to put as many people as possible through tertiary education has achieved the following:

1) The devaluation of the degree
2) A wind-fall for MBA providers
3) Huge debt for graduates who now have to pay their own way rather than the brightest x% being subsidised.
4) A shortage of electricians, plumbers....

The underlying message I received through my schooling was "trades are for thick people". I'd be a sparky if I had my time again.

[Swoop]

I've even seen a unit standard for "Mucking Out a Stable" .. this is a course for shovelling shit Fa Gawd's Sake !!!!
One problem here is that the ITO's generate an income from unit standards. The more there are, the more they can "earn" in funding and providing qualifications.

Given half a chance they would write a degree qualification on "excrement transfer protocol"...


The taxpayer wonders where money is being wasted...:rolleyes:

[scissorhands]

I'm a big believer in decentralisation of cities into small hamlets, all linked by monorails and high speed tubes.

The city economy way of living is unsustainable.

Future proofing for our kids requires major change that will happen too slowly as adversity will be the trigger rather than fore thought

[Pascal]

The underlying message I received through my schooling was "trades are for thick people". I'd be a sparky if I had my time again.

Same here. I went to a Technical school and the University students generally looked at us as if we were the dumb people. No matter that most of us had jobs, were earning long before them and are way ahead of the salary curve in general and probably more skilled as we had practical understanding of the subjects, not just a theoretical understanding.

It's one of the reasons I appreciate the ITO investment NZ is making as, with a few hiccups, it is a good system for pushing people into apprenticeships that not only benefit them but the economy as well.

And yeah, some unit standards may be "01648: Clean stables", but it is a skill in demand by their industry that they learn practically and hands on.


One problem here is that the ITO's generate an income from unit standards. The more there are, the more they can "earn" in funding and providing qualifications.

Funded according to STM. A STM is calculated as "((No of trainees * Program Credits) / (Duration / 12) / 120)/ 4". Unit Standards / achievement does not come into it. The credits required to complete the program (Linked to difficulty and duration) is more crucial. Which is one of the things I believe the ITR is meant to be changing as there is a stronger focus on actuals and completions, rather than just enrolments over time. But, there's a lot of discussion at the moment and things are fairly entertaining and interesting :yes:

[StoneY]

shoot the unemployed, then you just get economic growth, and smart/hardworking people, we will colonize mars and divert asteroids into our orbit for mineral wealth in a matter of years :innocent:

Methinks you read ben Bova's 'Grand Tour' series????

:lol:

[Banditbandit]

Same here. I went to a Technical school and the University students generally looked at us as if we were the dumb people. No matter that most of us had jobs, were earning long before them and are way ahead of the salary curve in general and probably more skilled as we had practical understanding of the subjects, not just a theoretical understanding.

It's one of the reasons I appreciate the ITO investment NZ is making as, with a few hiccups, it is a good system for pushing people into apprenticeships that not only benefit them but the economy as well.

And yeah, some unit standards may be "01648: Clean stables", but it is a skill in demand by their industry that they learn practically and hands on.





Yeah .. some of the most intellegent people I have worked with are trades people .... and I've worked with some pretty damm stupid PhDs ...

Yes, Clean Stables is in demand ... but it is something that can be taught on the job - probably better taught in a stable with a rake, fork and shovel etc, than sitting in a classroom passing tests ...

Employers have transfered the cost of training to the taxpayers/students through the ITO/Polytech/unit standard system ... The cost of training is the fees (paid by students and is roughly) 25% plus the Government funding (taxpayer money) 75% ...

[mashman]

It would be better to encourage children to follow their aptitudes and interests first; to see what type of future they can build from that and to seek education when they wish to further their knowledge. See if they can build something - create something new - follow their interests.


Instead it encourages the wrong person for the wrong job. It encourages a culture of job hopping to increase the bank balance. How much productivity is lost in those 2 scenarios alone? You end up with zero continuity of service, products that can kill or injure (and they are everywhere, especially China), education systems that are YEARS behind the times and a population that's been so heavily spoonfed information, they don't really need to know anything about anything anymore because they know everything, coz they learnded it in a book so it need not be thought about again :facepalm:

[Banditbandit]

Instead it encourages the wrong person for the wrong job. It encourages a culture of job hopping to increase the bank balance. How much productivity is lost in those 2 scenarios alone? You end up with zero continuity of service, products that can kill or injure (and they are everywhere, especially China), education systems that are YEARS behind the times and a population that's been so heavily spoonfed information, they don't really need to know anything about anything anymore because they know everything, coz they learnded it in a book so it need not be thought about again :facepalm:

Or they can "Google" anything they want to know ...

[Pascal]

Yes, Clean Stables is in demand ... but it is something that can be taught on the job - probably better taught in a stable with a rake, fork and shovel etc, than sitting in a classroom passing tests ...

Well, this is the point of ITO's, is it not? There are on-job assessment of unit standards, where the student has demonstrated practical applicability of the unit. So they're not sitting in a classroom learning to muck out a stable, but they're actually employed and doing it on a day to day basis, learning from their more experienced colleagues and are being tested on their ability to actually do it themselves.

Yeah, there are theoretical units, but they apply to areas where there needs to be a theoretical understanding of the subject.

[mashman]

Or they can "Google" anything they want to know ...

Aye, beats then shit out of going to the library eh.

[Banditbandit]

Well, this is the point of ITO's, is it not? There are on-job assessment of unit standards, where the student has demonstrated practical applicability of the unit. So they're not sitting in a classroom learning to muck out a stable, but they're actually employed and doing it on a day to day basis, learning from their more experienced colleagues and are being tested on their ability to actually do it themselves.

Yeah, there are theoretical units, but they apply to areas where there needs to be a theoretical understanding of the subject.

Yes, that's true - and probably Cleaning a Stable can and should be be done that way - but it seems to be part of the pre-employment training ...

Yes, the intent of the ITO system was to allow that - but a lot of training in trades and technical areas has been transfered to the Polytechs - paid for largely by the taxpayers, not the employers ..

[Swoop]

There are on-job assessment of unit standards, ... So they're not sitting in a classroom learning to muck out a stable, but they're actually employed and doing it on a day to day basis, learning from their more experienced colleagues and are being tested on their ability to actually do it themselves.
Works fine in theory, but employers do use this method to keep a person in a mundane part of the process on a lower wage rate.
Not getting an assessor in until the apprentice is kicking up a hell of a ruckus.

[Pascal]

Works fine in theory, but employers do use this method to keep a person in a mundane part of the process on a lower wage rate.
Not getting an assessor in until the apprentice is kicking up a hell of a ruckus.

Yeap, it's currently not perfect. Modern Apprentices have it slightly better with mandatory site visits, but normal Industry Trainees have gotten the bad end of the stick for a while. I anticipate this will change from next year though and for the better as there will be more incentive for ITO's to actually complete trainees. It's certainly going to be an interesting year.

So are you guys in the ITO industry or on the periphery of it?

[Swoop]

Yeap, it's currently not perfect.
"Currently"??

"They" have had 20 bloody years to sort the problems out.
There is a lot to be sorted out as well...

[bogan]

Methinks you read ben Bova's 'Grand Tour' series????

:lol:

that name does ring a bell... just wait till we build the polity AIs from Neal Ashers series, those smart buggers will sort everything out :yes:

[PrincessBandit]

Exactly. The recent (ie last 15-20 year) drive to put as many people as possible through tertiary education has achieved the following:

1) The devaluation of the degree
2) A wind-fall for MBA providers
3) Huge debt for graduates who now have to pay their own way rather than the brightest x% being subsidised.
4) A shortage of electricians, plumbers....

The underlying message I received through my schooling was "trades are for thick people". I'd be a sparky if I had my time again.
We were learning about the "education inflation" at tech in one of my papers - how once School C meant a job on leaving school, then it had to be a degree, now a diploma or degree is insufficient - it has to be a Masters or higher..... to achieve the same end. Even then a job is not guaranteed any more.


One problem here is that the ITO's generate an income from unit standards..............
Given half a chance they would write a degree qualification on "excrement transfer protocol"...


Even though said in jest (partly, at least) you are so right.


I'm a big believer in decentralisation of cities into small hamlets, all linked by monorails and high speed tubes.

The city economy way of living is unsustainable.

Future proofing for our kids requires major change that will happen too slowly as adversity will be the trigger rather than fore thought
Tried typing heaps of things to agree with you. They all sounded crap. So I'm going to go with "Yes, what he said".

[Woodman]

Just had one of my team graduate the motor trade pre apprenticeship course, and
there are not nearly enough apprenticeships to go around, and there will be another intake or two next year as well. A lot of these guys are paying off student loans for ages, and have long past given up trying to get into the trade they did the pre trade course for.

Do they look at the demand for apprentices?

Personally I believe the best way is to get an apprenticeship FIRST, and then do block courses/correspondence while you are working. Back to the future.:facepalm:

[James Deuce]

NZ's Universities ARE trade schools. The concept of a collegial university disappeared during the purges of the early 2000s and intellectual endeavour has been replaced with a conveyor belt system designed churn out lawyers, doctors and IT workers.

Combine that with the normal anti-intellectual attitudes of Kiwis and you see comments like the ones in this thread.

There is value in everything that everyone strives to achieve, be it a promotion at their McDonalds job, actively training for trade certification, being the best damn seasonal fruit picker ever, or wrestling with documenting how the rise of radical Islam and the collapse of the Capitalist economic system presage a potentially catastrophic re-organisation of the global world order and the rights of the individual.

The previous apprenticeship system seems to be viewed through rose-coloured glasses, but from personal experience in the engineering trade, more companies used it as a form of indentured, low-paid servitude than as a method for training professional tradespeople. The current system fails to meet demand and while some of you ridicule the detailed definition of what comprises the qualification requirements, at least the current apprentices aren't continually sweeping up swarf and changing drill heads at 2am and then expected to be at work at 7:30am to operate a machine for 6 hours before heading off to Polytech for 2, 2 hour block courses about stuff they'll never get to practice in the work place because some grumpy old bastard with an unlit roll-your-own perpetually hanging out of his mouth doesn't, and will never rate your ability to do anything except change the tea towels in the smoko room.

[Juzz976]

I think we should be more focused on improving the quality of life for everyone, not just helping the rich get richer and getting our country in more debt than we can handle.

Just a thought

[ckai]

But I do agree with you. Already we are seeing university graduates working at low-end jobs because there aren't any openings for them.

BA's don't count. They're not real degree's anyway :)



I wholeheartedly agree. I know so many people who have graduated in the last 10 years who are now in jobs that have nothing to do with their degrees/diplomas. What a waste of time and money that was for them! And the reason they couldn't get jobs in their fields was because there are so many other people that did the same qualification.

Sounds like you're talking about Management degrees...

I'm not even remotely in a job that my degree was designed for. It doesn't mean at all that I'm not using my degree. Completely the opposite in fact. I have a degree in Property Management and Valuation. Left uni to take on a volunteer position to learn how to run a company. Started getting paid peanuts out of choice to learn. That company was sold and I took up valuation.

Did that for nearly 3 years, but got asked to set up a company similar to before for less money. Jumped at it. There is nothing I learnt from my degree that I don't use every day. At least once a month I use the property side of things.

I did my degree because I was going to get into property development. Apart from doing a major renovation project, I haven't even come close to that. I don't for a second, believe my degree is a waste of money even though I "don't use it". The skills and knowledge I learnt I transfer to whatever I do. Just like any decent tradie would.


The underlying message I received through my schooling was "trades are for thick people". I'd be a sparky if I had my time again.

Tradies can be smart with their hands but they can be thick in other things that are common sense to some. One of the smartest people with science knowledge (90%+) I knew, was by far the dumbest for common sense. Seriously this guy was a muppet. But he could work out some serious shit. From experience, most super intelligent people are "brain dead".

Having a good mix of street smarts and school smarts is a win-win in my point of view.

[Winston001]

There is value in everything that everyone strives to achieve, be it a promotion at their McDonalds job, actively training for trade certification, being the best damn seasonal fruit picker ever, or wrestling with documenting how the rise of radical Islam and the collapse of the Capitalist economic system presage a potentially catastrophic re-organisation of the global world order and the rights of the individual.


Agreed. Unhappily, the value of a wide education is not recognised by most people because they only think of education as a means of getting a better job. It is a sensible perspective given that we all want the best opportunities but creates blindness of deeper issues.

We need our musicians, our artists, poets, writers, thinkers. Think about how bland life would be without art and culture. No movies, rock bands, youtube.....

I'd have loved to study philosophy, phenomenology of religion, and political studies purely to delve into how and why societies exist. Fortunately I discovered KB......:shit: All the philosophy you can eat. :D

[Dave Lobster]

Think about how bland life would be without culture.


There wouldn't be as much tongue poking, foot stamping or stick waving, for starters.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I don't think she is saying we shouldn't have higher education. Instead she is challenging the widespread assumption that high education automatically leads to high economic growth. For example Switzerland has lowish university participation but the strongest economy in the world.

Egypt increased education from 1980.....and became slightly worse off on the poverty index.



Because as Dave says, they'd leave.

But I do agree with you. Already we are seeing university graduates working at low-end jobs because there aren't any openings for them. What is likely to happen is salaries will diminish for the better educated because everyone else will be better educated too.


Someone more crass than I might suggest that the Swiss economic juggernaut was powered by, well, Nazi gold, so they'd be going OK no matter what. Oh, and cuckoo clocks and absinthe.

[James Deuce]

Someone more crass than I might suggest that the Swiss economic juggernaut was powered by, well, Nazi gold, so they'd be going OK no matter what. Oh, and cuckoo clocks and absinthe.

Don't forget Pippi Longstocking. She'd beat that Mitre 10 Mega guy to a pulp.

[avgas]

All my life I have sat on the fence with this issue.
I know what a day on the shovel feels like. But likewise I know what a night in the books does to you.

Education is never a problem or solution for anything - its simply a key. Just the same as being kicked around as "the boy" is. Its a key to a doorway of opportunity. Opportunity is what will save the economy. But I guess this is a classic case where correlation does not mean causality, as the more educated we get (in work or study) does not mean the better off we are.

So I continue to sit on the fence and simply say this: If you can not better yourself AND improve the lives of others around you, what are you good for?
I feel this question stands for if you have an arts degree, or if you have 20 years experience of doing things wrong. You have to prove your worth in the world regardless.
Otherwise what are you good for?

[avgas]

Sounds like you're talking about Management degrees..
Not always true.
Seen many electronic development engineering jobs lately. Because I can tell you from past experience we have a new 100 graduates in this field every 3-4 months.
Likewise IT grads.
Commerce.
Law....

In fact I think you may find there is not a single graduate in NZ that didn't find it hard for the first job in their SPECIFIC field.

But university does not teach you all there is to know about a field, they teach you how to learn in that field. In general they teach you how to learn.
This can be applied anywhere.

[ellipsis]

....so many variables...truths ....half truths....the old wise words of 'work hard and you will attain your dreams/aspirations are very dependant on a bit or even a lot of luck...wisdom is not the domain solely of the learned...the dumbing down is purely a political means to an end ....more for them...less for the uneducated masses....dummies are real easy to herd...frighten...intimidate....poke fingers at.....and they make the parasites a whole heap of money....I treated my kids pretty much in the victorian way I was treated....arse kicked....forced to try....very un PC was I....even got big shit for it....and the best shit I ever put in my kids was the 'truth'....no matter how ugly...horrible or upsetting to them.....I am now one of the proudest fathers in existence....my kids are all growed up...hard workers...parents...can now stare me in the eye and have figured out long ago that , my way was o.k....none of them went far with their education at school....did enough....cant blame systems...can only blame parents...catch 22 in that one tho....if the parents are fucked in the head chances are greater that the kids will be....not always tho.... my pet theory is that all kids be made to read history, then they would all know what happened then and whats gonna happen next....

[imdying]

In fact I think you may find there is not a single graduate in NZ that didn't find it hard for the first job in their SPECIFIC field. No way... I had jobs to choose from. Currently looking for another grad, to go with the one we hired 3 months back (who is fantastic). Hell, we try to pluck em straight from the programs before they graduate if we can.

[avgas]

No way... I had jobs to choose from. Currently looking for another grad, to go with the one we hired 3 months back (who is fantastic). Hell, we try to pluck em straight from the programs before they graduate if we can.
Nice one.
But in saying that do you hire a new one every 6 months? As that is the rate at which they are graduating at.....the supply far exceeded the demand.

Awesome stuff on hiring grads. To be honest I actually find some grads better than most people whom have been working for long periods of time. The good ones seem to have such a hunger for work - it boosts the whole place.

[imdying]

Nice one.
But in saying that do you hire a new one every 6 months? As that is the rate at which they are graduating at.....the supply far exceeded the demand.Not as a rule, but as we expand they're not overlooked.


Awesome stuff on hiring grads. To be honest I actually find some grads better than most people whom have been working for long periods of time. The good ones seem to have such a hunger for work - it boosts the whole place.I don't do the hiring, but I do use the old boys network to at least get them a foot in the door (ahead of grads from other institutions.

To be honest though, we would have hired more in the last three years, but most can't put a CV together that's worth looking at. I'm pretty sure we'd have picked up even more (maybe another 3 tops) of them in the last couple of years if not for that. Everybody that's studying moans their arse off when it comes to 'Interpersonal Communication and Business Writing' courses, but I'm here to tell ya, 99 out of 100 grads wouldn't know how to write a business document (like a CV for example) if their life depended on it.

I'm pretty blunt with the guys running the degrees now... I straight up tell them not to bother sending any retards, anyone who can't speak English, and to look over their CVs before wasting anybodies time.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Everybody that's studying moans their arse off when it comes to 'Interpersonal Communication and Business Writing' courses, but I'm here to tell ya, 99 out of 100 grads wouldn't know how to write a business document (like a CV for example) if their life depended on it.

I'm pretty blunt with the guys running the degrees now... I straight up tell them not to bother sending any retards, anyone who can't speak English, and to look over their CVs before wasting anybodies time.

abso blooody lutely.

In fact, here's some handy tips for those of you that need them:


http://i.imgur.com/HL1ZR.jpg

[Winston001]

My impression over the past 10 years is that people with trade skills - mechanics, electricians, engineers, plumbers etc - are far more likely to find a secure well-paid job than those with university degrees. Its a funny old world when our children turn their noses up at honest hands-on work. Of course, they are encouraged by careers advisors and society to aim at white-collar jobs.

[steve_t]

My impression over the past 10 years is that people with trade skills - mechanics, electricians, engineers, plumbers etc - are far more likely to find a secure well-paid job than those with university degrees. Its a funny old world when our children turn their noses up at honest hands-on work. Of course, they are encouraged by careers advisors and society to aim at white-collar jobs.

:yes: as someone else said before, I think, if I was doing it all again I'd defo consider being a sparky or a plumber

[HenryDorsetCase]

:yes: as someone else said before, I think, if I was doing it all again I'd defo consider being a sparky or a plumber

my old man told me to become a refrigeration engineer.

"There's a trade that will always have jobs, son"

Old bastard: right again.

[steve_t]

my old man told me to become a refrigeration engineer.

"There's a trade that will always have jobs, son"

Old bastard: right again.

Did u listen to him?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Nah, wish I had some days

[NighthawkNZ]

Maybe education is not the answer to economic growth


Not when the teach the same BS and lies... the only people that truly get anything from economic growth are the bankers and their fake money. Most people are just a slave to the system, thinking they are free... pffffft

[Winston001]

Not when the teach the same BS and lies... the only people that truly get anything from economic growth are the bankers and their fake money. Most people are just a slave to the system, thinking they are free... pffffft

You might want to expand on that a little....:yes:

We are vastly better off in material terms than our parents generation.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Not when the teach the same BS and lies... the only people that truly get anything from economic growth are the bankers and their fake money. Most people are just a slave to the system, thinking they are free... pffffft

hippie.

Go to a Warehouse and buy some stuff thats made in China that will last for five minutes before it goes into landfill. Pay for it with a credit card and make sure you owe them heaps so they can charge you interest at 24% compounding.

[scissorhands]

You might want to expand on that a little....:yes:

We are vastly better off in material terms than our parents generation.

What about obesity, asthma, infertility and cancer as a trade off for more TV's and travel? How much longer are we working? Get home and go on TM? Watch a TV show that gets you down to placemakers or repco and working AGAIN on your house or car. pfftt

[Dave Lobster]

Watch a TV show that gets you down to placemakers or repco and working AGAIN on your house or car. pfftt

On the up side, it's my house. Not a house owned by the government. My grandparents could afford to buy their own house until the 1980s.