Starting issues

[Gibbo89]

My 1994 Zeal is being a right little fuck :yes:

She was serviced less than 1 thousand k's a go.

It has 4 new spark plugs, the fuel filter was cleaned, carbs balanced etc etc. she was running great (although my bike never starts first pop in the morning even if it is warm).

I have got to the point where the battery is getting flat from me trying to start it. I cannot push start it, I tried and it didn't work.

There is definitely spark from the plugs, well the 1 I tested had spark anyway.

I have tried all the combo's of no choke, some throttle. Full choke, no throttle (my normal way of getting her going). etc etc.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it may be a fuel pump issue, when I turn the key to 'on' I hear it clicking away etc. But if I give the bike a wee push around I think I can still hear it making a noise (I do not think I have heard that before? maybe I just have not been listening to it closely before though)

Anyway, what do you boys and girls suggest I could check for.

Thanks,

Matt

[ducatilover]

Any idea how much fuel you have dripping from the pump? If you let the pump prime the carbs up, will it start then?
Once it is started, how does it idle? Smooth? Slow/fast? Hunting up and down the revs?
Drain the carb bowls, or better yet, clean the carbs. Only after checking for fuel flow.

Good luck

[Gibbo89]

Any idea how much fuel you have dripping from the pump?

No, you are talking to someone that is pretty retarded when it comes to this kind of thing :blink:
If you let the pump prime the carbs up, will it start then?

I take it by that you mean, when you turn the key - you then wait for the pump to stop making noises etc? if you meant that, then I always wait for it to stop making noises.

Once it is started, how does it idle? Smooth? Slow/fast? Hunting up and down the revs?
Drain the carb bowls, or better yet, clean the carbs. Only after checking for fuel flow.

Good luck

when it did start, (with the choke out) it would stay on, the revs would jump out to like 4k rpm so then I would push the choke back in to half way ish and let the bike warm up for a few minutes before jumping on and riding off, I push the choke in before I ride off and she's all good.
I'd make the note that even after a good ride it does not always start at a touch of the start button, more like I have to hold it for a few seconds for it to start (this is with the choke not being used)

p.s in regards to draining carbs etc, I do not know how to do that type of thing :facepalm:

[ducatilover]

I would assume then, if it has issues starting cold and hot that it's either an ignition problem, weak spark or wrong timing, or a fuel flow issue. Ask your local shop to have a perv at the fuel system.

[Gibbo89]

I would assume then, if it has issues starting cold and hot that it's either an ignition problem, weak spark or wrong timing, or a fuel flow issue. Ask your local shop to have a perv at the fuel system.

OK thanks for that, the ignition has been screw drivered at some point in it's life and was quoted like 300 bucks for a new ignition barrel and top yolk.

also, i tried jump starting it with the jumper leads - no dice

[ducatilover]

OK thanks for that, the ignition has been screw drivered at some point in it's life and was quoted like 300 bucks for a new ignition barrel and top yolk.

also, i tried jump starting it with the jumper leads - no dice

I don't see the ignition barrel being a problem, the kill switch would be a more likely suspect.

[Gibbo89]

I don't see the ignition barrel being a problem, the kill switch would be a more likely suspect.

OK thanks, guess i'll ring the mechanic soon and he will come pick her up. :bye:

[Owl]

Can you attempt to jump it from another battery?

I know with my FZR, if not running for a few weeks, it would not even look like starting, yet it would crank over fine. Charge the battery and it would kick into life straight away. Just a thought.

[Gibbo89]

Can you attempt to jump it from another battery?

I know with my FZR, if not running for a few weeks, it would not even look like starting, yet it would crank over fine. Charge the battery and it would kick into life straight away. Just a thought.

I tried to jump start it off a car battery, it was definitely turning stronger, but it just would not catch.

thanks for your thought :yes:

[Gibbo89]

Rang my mechanic, he thinks it sounds like it is flooded and I should clean the spark plugs, so i'll go do that later on tonight.

[Juzz976]

Its not winter so why are you using the choke?

No choke no throttle, probably flooded.

If flooded:
Pull all plugs out turn over a few times and let evaporate for an hour.
Plugs back in fire it up, no choke no throttle.

If carb dry:
Also if you let these sit for a while unused it will need fuel sucked through,
I put hand over each carb and turn once untill it splashes fuel on ya hand.
do 4 each cylinder and fire up.

Requires air box removal though, or start ya bastard in the vacuum test holes.

Next step, look for a good priced efi model:yes:

[Juzz976]

FYI,

use 1/3-1/2 throttle for starting when engine is already warm.

Use the choke next time it snows.

[Gibbo89]

Its not winter so why are you using the choke?

i just am, i bought the bike in winter and have continued to do it since then, even with the choke being used it doesn't start first pop. so i assumed the choke aids it when i start the bike for the first time in the morning.

thanks for the other suggestions. i can only do so much, i.e. the things that simpletons can manage. i will just get it picked up tomorrow if i am at a loss.

i thought that if i had flooded it, then leaving it over night would have sorted itself out. apparently not. :blink:

[neels]

Where are you in chch? I might be able to shoot round and offer a second set of eyes (or ears) if you're around tonight, before you get it carted away.

[Juzz976]

i just am, i bought the bike in winter and have continued to do it since then, even with the choke being used it doesn't start first pop. so i assumed the choke aids it when i start the bike for the first time in the morning.

thanks for the other suggestions. i can only do so much, i.e. the things that simpletons can manage. i will just get it picked up tomorrow if i am at a loss.

i thought that if i had flooded it, then leaving it over night would have sorted itself out. apparently not. :blink:

Yeh cool, jumper leads off car batt and wind over for 20 sec, let starter motor cool for a min then repeat untill started. quick way

Leaving overnight will maybe dry out 1 or 2 cylinders but the others have closed valves. leaving with plugs out will allow the fuel to evaporate as the cylinders are no longer sealed.

The vacumm test holes should be on the rubber intake runners under each carb facing the rear of bike, they have nipples with squeeze clips to remove. Squirt start ya bastard in them holes and crank over. is good when fuel not through carb properly.

Although I suspect its only flooded.

Good luck anyhows, you should be able to solve on your own. Its always more rewarding fixing yourself.

I've used choke twice over the last 60,000kms on various bikes. Both times frosty mornings and they actually started without just using choke, just I was able to let go of throttle and put gear on.

[ducatilover]

Being a 250cc 4cyl, it should need the choke when cold as they don't like to idle under 1500rpm cold. It's just how small 4cyl are...:facepalm:
Can you clean the connections to the fuel pump?
Also, try running it with the fuel filler open, just top rule out if it's the tank vent. :yes:

[Gibbo89]

Where are you in chch? I might be able to shoot round and offer a second set of eyes (or ears) if you're around tonight, before you get it carted away.

I'm in the riccarton/fendalton area. I have (well it's the old mans) some tools to get the outer spark plugs out, possibly there is an attachment to get the inside ones out too, i'll go have a look. if you do want to come around that would be great.

[Gibbo89]

Yeh cool, jumper leads off car batt and wind over for 20 sec, let starter motor cool for a min then repeat untill started. quick way

Leaving overnight will maybe dry out 1 or 2 cylinders but the others have closed valves. leaving with plugs out will allow the fuel to evaporate as the cylinders are no longer sealed.

The vacumm test holes should be on the rubber intake runners under each carb facing the rear of bike, they have nipples with squeeze clips to remove. Squirt start ya bastard in them holes and crank over. is good when fuel not through carb properly.

Although I suspect its only flooded.

Good luck anyhows, you should be able to solve on your own. Its always more rewarding fixing yourself.

I've used choke twice over the last 60,000kms on various bikes. Both times frosty mornings and they actually started without just using choke, just I was able to let go of throttle and put gear on.

thanks. I'll let you know how I get on

[Gibbo89]

Well, after Neels came to lend a hand; he deduced that it was, like others had already diagnosed indeed flooded.

In all of my nooby-ness, I think I must have had the choke out and also used the throttle :facepalm:

The plugs kept getting covered in petrol, so some meths were covered on the spark plugs to repel the petrol that kept trying to get on them when the bike was started.

After a few attempts of trial and error, she fired up :rockon:

Big thanks to Neels, he came with a multi meter and a big battery to help my one turn the bike over.

Thanks to all those who offered up their suggestions.

Bike felt a wee bit funny just then as I took it for a wee ride, but hopefully after a good run in the weekend she will come right.

p.s. next time I start her in the summer: NO choke to start her, just to keep her idling once she fires. :innocent:

[ducatilover]

I'm rather suprised at that. Good you have her sorted though mate, now ride the shit out of it. :yes:

[Gibbo89]

I'm rather suprised at that. Good you have her sorted though mate, now ride the shit out of it. :yes:

Oh don't worry, I will! :shit:

Yeah I didn't know that my noobness might flood her that bad, but those plugs got fouled instantly after you cleaned them. Meths to the rescue it would seem.

[Juzz976]

yep need to Ride at a high rev (at least 1/2 way to redline) for a while till the power smooths out after a flood.

Just remember when starting if its seems to bog out a bit after starting (when flooded, you'll learn the sound it makes)then
bring up the revs 4-5k and ride straight away. Or shut off quick, riding gear on start and ride with revs high straight away to clear the cylinders.

Otherwise you'll be repeating this process or riding around all day thinking your on 3 cyclinders or ignition is out or something else. People post threads 'my bike is low on power' and sometimes they're just running a slightly flooded motor.

You should be good tho this wont happen often if at all, remember while riding too that these motors do not like to be loaded on low rev and you should ride the clutch when moving from standstill, bike needs to breath air.

winter not so much a problem as the air is more dense which leans things out a bit, summer they're gonna run rich.

Not many but some will also drain the battery if the revs not held high enough (not enough charge with lights on and idling around.)

Good stuff getting it sorted tho:rockon: