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Ocean1
6th January 2011, 17:03
their methods have aquired for them the nickname "industryrapists.com". :shit:

Who calls them that and what are their methods?

MarkH
6th January 2011, 17:11
Great point, at least you are giving the retailer THE OPPORTUNITY.

I'll go further than that - in a lot of cases I have actually bought from the local retailer! I have bought a Givi screen (not the time there was a 10 week wait, but the time the suppliers had stock and I only had to wait a day), 2 helmets, 2 pairs of gloves, 2 pairs of boots, leather jacket, leather pants, 2 pairs of Dragin' Jeans, RainOff Over gloves, etc.

When it is a LOT cheaper to buy overseas then it is a case of 'sorry local guy' and when the local retailer can't get the product I want then I have no choice but to buy from overseas. But when the price is similar or when it is just easier to buy locally or when I want to try on clothing to ensure a good fit then sure, I'll support my local merchants!

I'm glad that there are local merchants available that I can visit and buy from, but I'm also glad that there are overseas online merchants available that I can also buy from. In NZ you can't always find every product because we are a small market, some products are just not imported - but it only takes a week or so from ordering from the US to the goods delivered to your door. I couldn't find a local merchant that stocked a Stebel Nautilus, so I ordered one from overseas - it arrived in about 3 days (IIRC) and I love the thing!

Robert Taylor
6th January 2011, 19:19
I'll go further than that - in a lot of cases I have actually bought from the local retailer! I have bought a Givi screen (not the time there was a 10 week wait, but the time the suppliers had stock and I only had to wait a day), 2 helmets, 2 pairs of gloves, 2 pairs of boots, leather jacket, leather pants, 2 pairs of Dragin' Jeans, RainOff Over gloves, etc.

When it is a LOT cheaper to buy overseas then it is a case of 'sorry local guy' and when the local retailer can't get the product I want then I have no choice but to buy from overseas. But when the price is similar or when it is just easier to buy locally or when I want to try on clothing to ensure a good fit then sure, I'll support my local merchants!

I'm glad that there are local merchants available that I can visit and buy from, but I'm also glad that there are overseas online merchants available that I can also buy from. In NZ you can't always find every product because we are a small market, some products are just not imported - but it only takes a week or so from ordering from the US to the goods delivered to your door. I couldn't find a local merchant that stocked a Stebel Nautilus, so I ordered one from overseas - it arrived in about 3 days (IIRC) and I love the thing!

I think its honourable that you are not mindlessly bagging all retailers lumped in together. I wouldnt for a moment be an apologist for bad service etc from local retailers but given the many ''distortions'' that are uncontrollable I dont envy many motorcycle retailers

bsasuper
6th January 2011, 20:26
Its a free market and a tough world, if I can get it at half the price from offshore, I will do, and I dont have to spend gas $$ to go get it (I live rural),I've seen gloves in NZ $475nz, ebay $125nz shipped, what would you do?

Robert Taylor
6th January 2011, 20:36
Its a free market and a tough world, if I can get it at half the price from offshore, I will do, and I dont have to spend gas $$ to go get it (I live rural),I've seen gloves in NZ $475nz, ebay $125nz shipped, what would you do?

The reality is amongst all the whys and wherefores , justifications and non justifications the situation that prevails is threatening the livelihoods and job security of many of our countrymen, and this extends well beyond the motorcycle industry.
That is a bigger and more pressing issue than everyone saving a few dollars. Ok many people may not give toss if it contributes to putting people from our own country out of work, but just how many people can live off the Government? We are already paying for the ''false prosperity'' economy we had for almost a decade on the back of property value specualtion and banks that were out of control.
This is a generalised statement not intended to incite a riot! Im just stating some of the very real negative by products ahnd unfortunately there is no easy solution and of course this reality is here to stay.

Coldrider
6th January 2011, 20:56
NZers are losing their jobs through more effective uses of IT, not just www purchases.
If there is no money in a particular sector of trade and commerce, that industry needs to be exited and skills transferred to a more profitable activity.

MarkH
6th January 2011, 21:03
I think its honourable that you are not mindlessly bagging all retailers lumped in together.

That is because I like my favourite retailers and prefer to spend my money with them when I can. When they can't get what I want from their suppliers or when they can't get what I want for a reasonable price then I have to look elsewhere, I regret those situations because I want to support my local retailers so they will stay in business for a long time to come. I just wont give away a heap of my money just to buy locally - the price locally needs to be within reason compared to what I could pay importing from overseas.

jaffamont
6th January 2011, 21:17
I think theres a danger of too many assuming that everything revolves around $US. For example we purchase our beloved Ohlins product in Swedish krona because the factory is in Sweden and that is their currency. They opted not to go with Euro and that is probably a good thing as they will not be helping to prop up failing economic basket cases like Greece. If the exchange rate against Swedish krona remains stable but at the same time the $US strengthens markedly ( meaning more $NZ are required to purchase $US ) then you will see that the buy price against the Swedish currency remains the same but then increases markedly if you purchase in $US.

Speaking for ourselves we have lowered our prices as overall our kiwi dollar has strenthened against Swedish crowns. We have also cut our margins to very tight levels to compete with the unlevel playing fields out there ( internet sales ) But you have to be careful about deriding dealers and distributors for generally ''failing'' to lower prices due to numerous other factors that have offset that. The cost of operating businesses has increased markedly over the last few years due to many factors including such things as the introduction of 4 weeks paid leave.

Respect to you for adapting your business model to meet the needs of and compete in the modern marketplace. However as I read it you have to take great care when setting your prices so as not to step on the toes of businesses that are unable to operate as efficeintly as you? Not sure why you bother? Darwinism will ensure that you will not be needing to supply them for too much longer.

The way I see it, if you need service then get the items from a local shop (if you use that shop to size up an internet purchase, you really are taking the piss). If you know exactly what you want and you need no further advice then go ahead and get the best possible price.

short-circuit
6th January 2011, 21:55
The reality is amongst all the whys and wherefores , justifications and non justifications the situation that prevails is threatening the livelihoods and job security of many of our countrymen, and this extends well beyond the motorcycle industry.
That is a bigger and more pressing issue than everyone saving a few dollars. Ok many people may not give toss if it contributes to putting people from our own country out of work, but just how many people can live off the Government? We are already paying for the ''false prosperity'' economy we had for almost a decade on the back of property value specualtion and banks that were out of control.
This is a generalised statement not intended to incite a riot! Im just stating some of the very real negative by products ahnd unfortunately there is no easy solution and of course this reality is here to stay.

I love the irony when self proclaimed right w(h)ingers [read: free marketeers/anti-regulation proponents/social and economic darwinists] start nashing their teeth when it works against them and crying for government regulation/protection. Even more ironic that these same economic realist types start harping on about morality and "putting your countrymen first".

Here's something I purchased online especially for you Robert:

Quasievil
6th January 2011, 22:20
I love the irony when self proclaimed right w(h)ingers [read: free marketeers/anti-regulation proponents/social and economic darwinists] start nashing their teeth when it works against them and crying for government regulation/protection. Even more ironic that these same economic realist types start harping on about morality and "putting your countrymen first".

Here's something I purchased online especially for you Robert:


mmmm Someone has to pay the wage bill in NZ, so when it doesnt work well for those people dont you think they should bitch moan from the hilltops?
or should we all just forget it import everything and go on the dole ?
Lets regulate to kill enterprise and Business completely in NZ.

Max Preload
6th January 2011, 23:14
I understand what is said about the size of the NZ market and it's buying power in comparison to larger markets, but what about this example.

Samsung 5 Series 40" LED LCD TV

Harvey Norman advertised price - $1698 (http://www.harveynorman.co.nz/samsung-40-101cmv-full-hd-led-television.html)
Target America - $1563 (http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/184-6892913-8041008?asin=B0036WT48S&AFID=shopping_df&LNM=|B0036WT48S&CPNG=electronics&ci_src=13736960&ci_sku=B0036WT48S&ref=tgt_adv_XSC10001)
And Magness Benrow for $1666 (http://magnessbenrow.co.nz/television/37-42/ua40c5000-samsung-40-led-edge-tv.html). Surely they don't have any considerable economy of scale.


I suspect many more tvs are sold than bike parts.
But that's probably the same case in the US. But their bike parts are so cheap...


Harvey Norman is a trans tasman company so they have huge buying power when you combine ozzie and new Zealand.Yet the prices at the smaller guys here are so similar... (of course, we all know where the buying power goes... into so-called 'interest-free deferred payment deals')

short-circuit
7th January 2011, 06:00
Lets regulate to kill enterprise and Business completely in NZ.

I'm all for tariffs and protections - always have been. I just have to laugh when right wingers start crying out for selective protections and market regulations when they are directly impacted by "Free Market" realities. I feel an online splurge coming on....

Voltaire
7th January 2011, 06:09
I love the irony when self proclaimed right w(h)ingers [read: free marketeers/anti-regulation proponents/social and economic darwinists] start nashing their teeth when it works against them and crying for government regulation/protection. Even more ironic that these same economic realist types start harping on about morality and "putting your countrymen first".

Here's something I purchased online especially for you Robert:

I love the irony of bikers who think on one hand its fine to spend your money oveseas to avoid margins/markups and tax... but on the other expect the Govt and taxpayers of NZ to pay for better roads and ACC.
Less money spent here= less businesses= less jobs= less Govt tax intake= less Govt spending
Correct me if I'm seeing that wrong....:innocent:

short-circuit
7th January 2011, 06:24
I love the irony of bikers who think on one hand its fine to spend your money oveseas to avoid margins/markups and tax... but on the other expect the Govt and taxpayers of NZ to pay for better roads and ACC.
Less money spent here= less businesses= less jobs= less Govt tax intake= less Govt spending
Correct me if I'm seeing that wrong....:innocent:

Like I said before ALL FOR TAX AND TARIFFS but I aint selective about it like RT et al. I never voted for tax cuts last election. Do you honestly you think paying GST type taxes is doing your bit?

My point is simple - these same people who have trumpetted on and on for laissez faire policy are now crying like bitches for regulation. Fuck em.

Voltaire
7th January 2011, 06:53
Like I said before ALL FOR TAX AND TARIFFS but I aint selective about it like RT et al. I never voted for tax cuts last election. Do you honestly you think paying GST type taxes is doing your bit?

My point is simple - these same people who have trumpetted on and on for laissez faire policy are now crying for regulation. Fuck em.

I had an electical business, mainly installing heatpumps, so have a fair idea on how a business works, once the recession kicked in discretionary spending was reduced. I got out of that as no one wants to pay for a quality job, just a cheap one. I could not compete with cowboys so I flagged it.
Anyone who sets up and runs a business, good on them.

Actually I'm not that unhappy about paying what I do in tax, I am amazed how this place even runs on a tax base of 3 millionish.
All the whingers on this site should go and see the rest of the world if they think they have it bad here.

I buy stuff from overseas a bit as I run 30 year old bikes and there is no local support.
I even buy my Ducati parts off Haldanes :gob:

Interesting that people are buying more and more on line from overseas....and the Govt is thinking of outsourcing ACC to overseas companies.....sign of the times?:innocent:

onearmedbandit
7th January 2011, 07:15
I love the irony of bikers who think on one hand its fine to spend your money oveseas to avoid margins/markups and tax... but on the other expect the Govt and taxpayers of NZ to pay for better roads and ACC.
Less money spent here= less businesses= less jobs= less Govt tax intake= less Govt spending
Correct me if I'm seeing that wrong....:innocent:


The seat cowl from Honda cost $620. From America it cost NZ$210. So imdying sent $210 off-shore. Had he bought it from Honda I'd wager more than $210 would have gone off shore. So in effect, imdying (and I) kept more money in NZ then had he bought it in NZ.

short-circuit
7th January 2011, 07:23
I had an electical business, mainly installing heatpumps, so have a fair idea on how a business works, once the recession kicked in discretionary spending was reduced. I got out of that as no one wants to pay for a quality job, just a cheap one. I could not compete with cowboys so I flagged it.
Anyone who sets up and runs a business, good on them.

Actually I'm not that unhappy about paying what I do in tax, I am amazed how this place even runs on a tax base of 3 millionish.
All the whingers on this site should go and see the rest of the world if they think they have it bad here.

I buy stuff from overseas a bit as I run 30 year old bikes and there is no local support.
I even buy my Ducati parts off Haldanes :gob:

Interesting that people are buying more and more on line from overseas....and the Govt is thinking of outsourcing ACC to overseas companies.....sign of the times?:innocent:

Good post. It's sheer lunacy (driven by greed) to have decreased our tax base the way we have. I agree also with your point that we are extreme in comparison to the rest of the world in terms of how little tax we pay.

Back on topic, buying bike bits locally (and paying 3 times the price for the privilege) might make some people feel good - to me it seems a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I have no sympathy for the arsehole retailers on KB whinging about this situation however. Their plight is a result of their own politics :bye:

yungatart
7th January 2011, 07:36
The cost of any article is in the distribution chain.

A pen is manufactured for 10 cents...it goes through several (in some cases, many) points, each one putting their costs on top, before it is available for you, the customer, to purchase at a cost of $2.00.

The manufacturer and the retailer put on their profit margin but most of that extra $1.90 cents is put on by the distributers/warehousers/freight companies, not the manufacturer or the retailer, which is why you can buy cheaper overseas...it passes through less hands.

Bassmatt
7th January 2011, 07:41
mmmm Someone has to pay the wage bill in NZ, so when it doesnt work well for those people dont you think they should bitch moan from the hilltops?
or should we all just forget it import everything and go on the dole ?
Lets regulate to kill enterprise and Business completely in NZ.

Is your gear made locally. Are you supporting the local leather and clothing manufacturers? Why should it be any different for the end user?

MSTRS
7th January 2011, 08:01
The seat cowl from Honda cost $620. From America it cost NZ$210. So imdying sent $210 off-shore. Had he bought it from Honda I'd wager more than $210 would have gone off shore. So in effect, imdying (and I) kept more money in NZ then had he bought it in NZ.

So the $410 that was kept in NZ went into the local money-go-round? Or imdying left it in the bank, or didn't have it in the first place?
Unless imdying spent it, the local economy did not benefit.

ynot slow
7th January 2011, 08:02
Lets chuck another scenario with the Honda part.$620 here,$210 plus shipping etc,leaves say $300 to still be spent in NZ.Sure a bike shop loses out,but the money saved will be spent back in NZ,maybe at a bar,restaurant,so although the original cost meant the local shop lost a sale,I'm willing to bet it sold filters,plugs etc to make up for it,seems to me most shops need to only stock the basic parts.Why would they want to stock each and every size and colour of a helmet range from Shoei,Arai etc,when the punter can come in try on and buy overseas.Same for clothing.

Robert Taylor
7th January 2011, 08:11
Respect to you for adapting your business model to meet the needs of and compete in the modern marketplace. However as I read it you have to take great care when setting your prices so as not to step on the toes of businesses that are unable to operate as efficeintly as you? Not sure why you bother? Darwinism will ensure that you will not be needing to supply them for too much longer.

The way I see it, if you need service then get the items from a local shop (if you use that shop to size up an internet purchase, you really are taking the piss). If you know exactly what you want and you need no further advice then go ahead and get the best possible price.

I hear what you are saying, which effectively is why is the shop clipping the ticket on the way through when most often the customer has done the reserarch and knows exactly what he wants. There are though good shops with good people that make the effort and they deserve a margin, so thats traditionally 2 margins. Its a conundrum and with overseas competition it places the heat on having 2 margins.

onearmedbandit
7th January 2011, 08:15
So the $410 that was kept in NZ went into the local money-go-round? Or imdying left it in the bank, or didn't have it in the first place?
Unless imdying spent it, the local economy did not benefit.

I can't speak for him, however I spent more than imdying on this particular order, and I have spent the difference between what I paid and what I would've paid on some tyres for my bike (purchased locally at a shop that was affected by the earthquake), tyres for the car, etc. I didn't need new tyres for the bike, but when I saw how much money I saved I splurged out. Now Pitlane have my $468, not some overseas company. And yes I do realise some of that money went off shore.

I'm sure imdying will be along soon, but I already know the answer regarding his situation. But that's not my business to post about.

onearmedbandit
7th January 2011, 08:18
The cost of any article is in the distribution chain.

A pen is manufactured for 10 cents...it goes through several (in some cases, many) points, each one putting their costs on top, before it is available for you, the customer, to purchase at a cost of $2.00.

The manufacturer and the retailer put on their profit margin but most of that extra $1.90 cents is put on by the distributers/warehousers/freight companies, not the manufacturer or the retailer, which is why you can buy cheaper overseas...it passes through less hands.

Japan exporter to American importer to American retailer = $210
Japan exporter to Oz importer (maybe) to NZ Importer to NZ retailer = $620

Sorry, but fuck that.

Robert Taylor
7th January 2011, 08:19
I love the irony when self proclaimed right w(h)ingers [read: free marketeers/anti-regulation proponents/social and economic darwinists] start nashing their teeth when it works against them and crying for government regulation/protection. Even more ironic that these same economic realist types start harping on about morality and "putting your countrymen first".

Here's something I purchased online especially for you Robert:

I wouldnt expect you to have read all of my posts over time but Ive been consistent in what I say. Yes , unashamedly my views are largely and unashamedly right wing sympathetic but Id also like to say infused with realism. In slight contradiction to those views yes Im also unashamedly in favour of protecting the wellbeing of ordinary Kiwis. The false prosperity worldwide that we had for a decade or so was fuelled on such things as property speculation and generated massive bank profits and obscene bonuses. There is only so much money in circulation and it would be better put to use in industries that are productive, generate export income and carry people along with it.
We are certainly seeing a great seachange in how the world does business and there will be a lot of casualties yet, many businesses are having to adapt or die.

scumdog
7th January 2011, 08:21
I hear what you are saying, which effectively is why is the shop clipping the ticket on the way through when most often the customer has done the reserarch and knows exactly what he wants. There are though good shops with good people that make the effort and they deserve a margin, so thats traditionally 2 margins. Its a conundrum and with overseas competition it places the heat on having 2 margins.

There's also the odd situation where you know what the shop can get for you will probably be more expensive than it might be from overseas - but there's a risk the overseas part may not fit/suit.

In that case the shop wears it and would have to return said item.

Buying it from overseas yourself and it doean't fit ? - you're stuck with it unless you know what the part DOES fit and can sell it.

And if that part happens to be for say an XN85 theres not much chance of you finding a buyer in NZ...:blink:

Bassmatt
7th January 2011, 08:37
The false prosperity worldwide that we had for a decade or so was fuelled on such things as property speculation and generated massive bank profits and obscene bonuses.

This of course was made possible by Govts to the right of center. How can you say you support the ideology of the right and still care about the man on the street. The two are diametrically opposed.

short-circuit
7th January 2011, 08:52
This of course was made possible by Govts to the right of center. How can you say you support the ideology of the right and still care about the man on the street. The two are diametrically opposed.

Bang on. Many small business owners falsely harbour the delusional belief that the policies of right act in their interests (when in actual fact they only care about large corporates and the finance "industry").

As far as "caring about the average man on the street" he doesn't. Right wingers see people only as consumers and potential consumers.

Bassmatt
7th January 2011, 09:21
Not trying to threadjack but this is great...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__tSOHoYgJmY/TInZOeF0XlI/AAAAAAAAAIA/1UiAvNxrH9g/s1600/reagan.jpg

Robert Taylor
7th January 2011, 09:26
This of course was made possible by Govts to the right of center. How can you say you support the ideology of the right and still care about the man on the street. The two are diametrically opposed.

It largely happened on the last Governments watch and if you look at how Gordon Brown screwed up Britain it defies belief. Conservatism and compassion can be bedfellows. But yes I concede that many Governments are too friendly to the biggest business interests

dipshit
7th January 2011, 10:01
Virtually all my working life for the last 25 years has been earning overseas money. Farming for the fat lamb trade for 12 years.... then in the export meat industry for some years... then in the mining industry for the last few years. Have perhaps collected a government benefit for a month tops in my life.

As such I do not feel any guilt whatsoever purchasing directly from overseas.

The retail market itself dictates when my money goes.

Recently purchased a lot of HiFi audio equipment. It's nice (almost essential) be able to listen to expensive speakers before forking out on them. Brought from a local HiFi specialist shop.

Have been into photography for some years and acquired a fair amount of photography gear. All purchased from NZ retailers as prices aren't that much different from overseas so may as well support local and have less trouble for warranty claims and such.

Spent money upgrading my bike's suspension recently and spent it with a NZ company (yes, RT) because they offer good service and backup... as suspension is just as much about technical support and setup than it is about the components themselves. A bit more money spent for this actually yields better value for your money I feel.

Still when it comes to purchasing exhausts and other such accessories or parts for my bikes I get better value for money purchasing directly from overseas at less than 1/2 the price. I do not feel any obligation to support my local bike shops and could not care less if half of them went under. No great loss.

At the end of the day the consumers will dictate the market no matter how much the market tries to dictate to the consumers.

Pussy
7th January 2011, 10:08
At the end of the day the consumers will dictate the market no matter how much the market tries to dictate to the consumers.

Spot on! Freedom of choice

MarkH
7th January 2011, 10:10
Buying it from overseas yourself and it doean't fit ? - you're stuck with it unless you know what the part DOES fit and can sell it.

This is very true and it is one reason that I am happy to pay more to buy something locally - but there is a limit to how much more I am willing to pay. It isn't very common to buy a part for a bike and not have that part fit that bike - I buy a part to fit an AN400 K7 and it IS going to fit. If I am only saving 5% though, I might as well buy locally just in case the part is wrong or broken or whatever. If I am saving 50% or more than it is worth taking the risk, even if the occasional item bought from overseas doesn't fit and can't be sold through Tard Me it is still cheaper than buying locally for over twice the price.

Often it is on the smaller bits that you get raped the hardest. I bought a digital camera locally and buying overseas doesn't save all that much, but when you go to buy a new battery for your camera . . . (I have some after-market batteries that are 4 or 5 years old that still work better then the genuine OEM ones)
The same goes with bikes - try buying a replacement bolt or gasket or whatever small & cheap bit you like. I asked about a replacement bolt that had worked loose and fallen out - I was told by the bike shop that they could get one but it would cost something like twenty bucks and I would be better off buying a similar length bolt with the same thread from a hardware store, which I did. Later when ordering a couple of other things from the US I got a proper Suzuki bolt for US$2.45. It's like walking into Dick Smith Electronics and seeing the $3 - $5 cables on sale for $15 - $20, it seems nuts but they don't want to bother selling an item for $4.50 that cost them $3 even if it is 50% markup because the profit from the sale wont cover the cost of the staff time to sell it - so they whack another $10 on to the price and make good money on the item.

Ever buy stuff from Kathmandu on sale? If they can sell an item to me for 1/3 price on sale then how much do they make when someone buys it at their normal price? Of course only the insane would buy something from Kathmandu at full price anyway.

Katman
7th January 2011, 10:22
If you want to crucify the real crooks here look no further than the likes of Suzuki NZ, Triumph NZ and Bluewing Honda.

The rest of us are just trying to survive.

scumdog
7th January 2011, 10:31
Ever buy stuff from Kathmandu on sale? If they can sell an item to me for 1/3 price on sale then how much do they make when someone buys it at their normal price? Of course only the insane would buy something from Kathmandu at full price anyway.

Yup, kathmandu usually sells ggod quality products..
But at their "1/2 price sale"? = normal retail price at any other place.:yes:

R-Soul
7th January 2011, 11:00
The cost of any article is in the distribution chain.

A pen is manufactured for 10 cents...it goes through several (in some cases, many) points, each one putting their costs on top, before it is available for you, the customer, to purchase at a cost of $2.00.

The manufacturer and the retailer put on their profit margin but most of that extra $1.90 cents is put on by the distributers/warehousers/freight companies, not the manufacturer or the retailer, which is why you can buy cheaper overseas...it passes through less hands.

No - it may pass through the same number of hands, but when teh number of players are reduced, and competition is reduced, then each set of hands adds a bigger chunk on.

MarkH
7th January 2011, 11:10
No - it may pass through the same number of hands, but when teh number of players are reduced, and competition is reduced, then each set of hands adds a bigger chunk on.

If a NZ company has the sole distribution rights for a brand in NZ and a company in the US has the sole distribution rights for the same brand in the US then that would be the same number of players each way. But if the NZ company moves a thousand units a month and the US company moves a hundred thousand units a month then it is obvious why one might make a lot of money with a 10% markup while the other scrapes by with a 50% markup.
This doesn't matter to me, what matters is that I can buy the item in NZ for NZ$X or from the US of A for US$Y and that is what I look at.

How NZ companies run their business is up to them, how I spend my money is up to me. If anyone doesn't like me buying stuff from overseas - tough!

R-Soul
7th January 2011, 11:14
I think that it is pretty well known that supermarkets operate on high volume/low margins, so no need to whine about their margins. .

Dont be too sure about that either. There is a lack of competition in that sphere too. Just the other day there was a skit on Campbell about a 500% (!) markup on strawberries or something.

My wife's mum can get NZ lamb in Cape Town for a third less than I can buy it in Auckland. Ditto NZ wine.

Have you seen the price of fish lately? Last time I looked, we were an island? Why can Aussie fishermen pull the same fish out of the same ocean for so much less? We are being drilled at every level of the distribution chain because of lack of competition.

We need a competition commmission with real teeth that can HEAVILY fine anti-competitive behaviour (such as collusion).

zeocen
7th January 2011, 11:22
If you want to crucify the real crooks here look no further than the likes of Suzuki NZ, Triumph NZ and Bluewing Honda.

The rest of us are just trying to survive.

That's pretty much how I feel. The Hornet 900 centrestand required removing headers and exhaust where an SW motech version requires no cutting or removing of any bits, bolts straight on and is 250 - 350 cheaper and arguably better made.

I've also heard some nightmares about the OEM Predator heated grips being upwards of 700+

These are consumables that would require no followup, if I were to get a suspension upgrade it would come from Robert because of the follow up and support - that is worth its weight in gold. Some things, though, are just well above what I would consider a proper price.

Unfortunately it's rarely the fault of the dealership (if at all) and rather the distributors. My local dealership, bless them, were trying to get the pipes down to a real world price for me - nearly as close as cost, but when there's around about 1500 savings from overseas, well... That's 1500 that can be put to better use on my bike than putting it straight into an distributor's pocket.

R-Soul
7th January 2011, 11:24
Wholesalers and importers do not have a bottomless money pit to have lots of dealers with consignment stock, cash flow problems are as similiar as what dealers have, if not moreso.

What you also have to realise is that manufacturers do not have endless production capacity and stock has to often be pre-ordered months in advance. Sometimes or more than sometimes it is out of phase with the main selling seasons in the Northern hemisphere and it doesnt suit us so well.

The issues are more complex than people realise and as we are so tiny and insignificant we havent got clout, quite the opposite.

How the friggin hell you can negotiate REALLY LOW PRICES especially when you are in world terms buying bugger all is beyond me and all the other distributors. Thats fantasy land.

Mate when the man in the street can get the same stuff for 30% of your cost from retailers offshore, then I have got to ask why you dont just get the same stuff from the same retailers and sell it at a reasonable markup? Even if you paid the offshore RETAIL price for it, and put 60% markup on it, on demand, without holding stock, the price would STILL be some 30% down on what the retail prices are here.

That line of "we are not big enough to negotiate good wholesale prices" just doesn't cut it in some cases (note: I have not dealt with you or know nothing of your products, and am not directling this at you personally).

In some cases, the fantasy land is on the retailers/importers side - actually more like GREED land. In those cases- fuck 'em!

R-Soul
7th January 2011, 11:39
Suggesting there's a monopoly/duopoly responsible for our high prices doesn't provide evidence that either or both the wholesaler or retailer is applying a large markup. You suggested that you don't believe that the retailers are as innocent as they pretend to be because they protest too much. You don't think they're protesting because they're struggling? Survival of the fittest right? Won't that end up with less competition and increase prices in the long run?

Some are stuggling. Some are complaining because they "only" make 200% markup.
If a business is not viable, it should not be open. The talents of that entrepreneur should be directed towards a better business with a viable business model.

The competition HAS increased - from online shopping. Its here, and its here to stay. Now business retailer need to either:

1) Stop price gouging their customers, or
2) Have a no-nonsence talk with their distributor
3) Find another differentiator that will make consumers want to remain visiting their shop (and do it very well!)

Either way, their prices must go down, or their businesses will.
Consumers should not be required to pay for the greed tangled up in the distribution chain - especially now they have alternative options....

dipshit
7th January 2011, 11:41
That's 1500 that can be put to better use on my bike than putting it straight into an distributor's pocket.

But someone has to pay for Hayden's or Andrew Stroud's gazebos somehow.

Katman
7th January 2011, 11:46
Some are complaining because they "only" make 200% markup.


Are you serious?

Where the fuck did you pluck that sort of mark-up figure from???

ynot slow
7th January 2011, 13:51
Are you serious?

Where the fuck did you pluck that sort of mark-up figure from???

Retail prices for furniture are usually (x) 2.1-2.2 on top of wholesale,i.e $1000 plus gst w/s to floor price of $2250-2395 inc gst(at 12.5%)when I was selling,but then again you can buy 6 lounge suites and 5 are still there 6 months later,tough choice buying floor stock,my tastes differ from managers,owners etc.

We were selling a range of beds which had a radical spring invented by the company 20 yrs ago,so confident of this the manufacturers advised the members of the bedding group not to discount the beds as they didn't need to be discounted if staff were up to date with product knowledge and could sell benefits and so on,lasted about 10 months or so,until most retailers found out others were discounting.The idea was with a good mark up(had to stock at least 10 queen beds in range to show differences in quality)and stocking each floor bed at least in storeage for delivery,maybe 5 of popular range,the idea was without heavilly discounting the firm could make a good return,etc.


As an aside,my chain needed adjusting after trip away,my socket wasn't large enough,took it to bike shop as they said just pop in when I rang yesterday,dropped it off,chain tensioned while I waited,no charge,but will drop a dozen beers.

Horse
7th January 2011, 14:07
If you want to crucify the real crooks here look no further than the likes of Suzuki NZ, Triumph NZ and Bluewing Honda.

The rest of us are just trying to survive.

Funny, I think that's precisely what some of us are saying.

Katman
7th January 2011, 14:25
Retail prices for furniture are usually (x) 2.1-2.2 on top of wholesale,i.e $1000 plus gst w/s to floor price of $2250-2395 inc gst(at 12.5%)

So does everyone bitch and moan about the price they're expected to pay for their furniture?

I can assure you that the mark-up for motorcycle clothing and accessory retailers is nothing like that figure.

Mully Clown
7th January 2011, 14:33
So does everyone bitch and moan about the price they're expected to pay for their furniture?

I can assure you that the mark-up for motorcycle clothing and accessory retailers is nothing like that figure.

That's probably because we don't see television adverts every second week advertising 20-40% off all stock*

imdying
7th January 2011, 14:56
Attention off topic retards. This isn't a thread about retailers running their business to whatever model they see fit. This is a thread about what happens when you join the Honda family. When you do that in NZ, by buying a new bike, you're not welcomed into the family at all, you're treated like a handicapped second cousin and arse raped for all you're worth. The only question is, who's the rapist, Blue Wing, or Honda Japan?

Katman
7th January 2011, 15:05
The only question is, who's the rapist, Blue Wing, or Honda Japan?

Refer post #284.

short-circuit
7th January 2011, 15:13
Triumph parts is exactly the same - 2 and 3 times the price on everything across the board. We all know Honda owners like being arse raped anyways.

imdying
7th January 2011, 15:16
Appreciate the post mate, but it's a bit light on details. You reckon Blue Wing buys it for $100 and sells it to the dealer for $500?

Ocean1
7th January 2011, 16:27
will drop a dozen beers.

Yus! Good man. Beer is good!

And non-taxable!

Ocean1
7th January 2011, 16:39
I can assure you that the mark-up for motorcycle clothing and accessory retailers is nothing like that figure.

P'raps not for the retailer, but the fact remains I paid NZ$400 for top-of-the-line Apinestar jacket in San Francisco that I've seen here for three times that price.

It wasn't even on special. And the economies of scale thing don't come anywhere near explaining that level of discrepency.

I reckon the most likely culprits would be the ones who've got the market cornered, the ones with a monopoly.

ynot slow
7th January 2011, 18:18
So does everyone bitch and moan about the price they're expected to pay for their furniture?

I can assure you that the mark-up for motorcycle clothing and accessory retailers is nothing like that figure.

Yep they don't,but as the store owner pays the finance companies for interest free monies,or when they have a "sale"when goods are "discounted",almost puts item at a normal(60%)margin for cash purchases.

Funny how clothes used to be 100% plus mark up and bike gear(similar apparel)is/isn't depending who you talk to,i.e retailer not much mark up,or buyer:seems to be too expensive I'll suss out sizing and buy online,or buy overseas.

98tls
7th January 2011, 18:50
I love the irony of bikers who think on one hand its fine to spend your money oveseas to avoid margins/markups and tax... but on the other expect the Govt and taxpayers of NZ to pay for better roads and ACC.
Less money spent here= less businesses= less jobs= less Govt tax intake= less Govt spending
Correct me if I'm seeing that wrong....:innocent:

Love the irony of anyone thinking that in this day and age spending your hard earned here will result in here being any better off,nice thought shit its almost romantic but na its not the reality living in NZ these days.The biggest part of tax or anything else you care to mention of your hard earned will go to some form of Welfare payment to A someone not from here B someone from here but either to lazy to be bothered working or making to much money to bother working,either way i will happily continue to purchase my motorcycling bits a 1/3rd of the price overseas with no guilt whatsoever.

Robbo
7th January 2011, 19:15
If you want to crucify the real crooks here look no further than the likes of Suzuki NZ, Triumph NZ and Bluewing Honda.

The rest of us are just trying to survive.

So true Katman. Triumph NZ wanted $430 for a replacement headlight for the Speedy. Got one from Repco for $36 Coincidently it was branded the same as my original one although it could have been an aftermarket copy from somewhere in Asia but it still does the same job.
I still however, will not shop overseas as i make my income from the NZ market and think it's only fair to put my money back into it. I just shop wisely.

AD345
7th January 2011, 19:32
I There is only so much money in circulation and it would be better put to use in industries that are productive, generate export income and carry people along with it.
.

Yep

And motorcycle parts and accessories retailing ain't one of tem

Coldrider
7th January 2011, 20:02
I love the irony of bikers who think on one hand its fine to spend your money oveseas to avoid margins/markups and tax... but on the other expect the Govt and taxpayers of NZ to pay for better roads and ACC.
Less money spent here= less businesses= less jobs= less Govt tax intake= less Govt spending
Correct me if I'm seeing that wrong....:innocent:The money spent overseas is the money that was going there anyway, without the rip off part staying in NZ, or yeah, that part goes overseas too, on the Q7 and the wifes X5, gotta look good in business, with the help of the accountant minimising taxable income for the company, and how many companies are failing to pay the GST to the IRD that has been paid by their faithful customers.

Coldrider
7th January 2011, 20:15
Attention off topic retards. This isn't a thread about retailers running their business to whatever model they see fit. This is a thread about what happens when you join the Honda family. When you do that in NZ, by buying a new bike, you're not welcomed into the family at all, you're treated like a handicapped second cousin and arse raped for all you're worth. The only question is, who's the rapist, Blue Wing, or Honda Japan?My Kwaka has needed 1 (one, un, uno, didley squat) genuine Kawasaki part in 10 years of its ownership (rear cush drive).
But kawasaki is the black sheep of the family.

Voltaire
7th January 2011, 20:21
Love the irony of anyone thinking that in this day and age spending your hard earned here will result in here being any better off,nice thought shit its almost romantic but na its not the reality living in NZ these days.The biggest part of tax or anything else you care to mention of your hard earned will go to some form of Welfare payment to A someone not from here B someone from here but either to lazy to be bothered working or making to much money to bother working,either way i will happily continue to purchase my motorcycling bits a 1/3rd of the price overseas with no guilt whatsoever.

I was trying to look on the bright side........ :facepalm:

98tls
7th January 2011, 20:31
I was trying to look on the bright side........ :facepalm:

Fair call,as you should mate.Ignore me.:shutup:

Voltaire
7th January 2011, 20:58
The money spent overseas is the money that was going there anyway, without the rip off part staying in NZ, or yeah, that part goes overseas too, on the Q7 and the wifes X5, gotta look good in business, with the help of the accountant minimising taxable income for the company, and how many companies are failing to pay the GST to the IRD that has been paid by their faithful customers.

You must find it hard to spend any money here.... the local dairy owner and his BMW...the bottle shop owner and his Porsche.....:innocent:
Its pretty hard to avoid GST unless your a cash business....bloody hairdressers and their Ferraris.....

98tls
7th January 2011, 21:10
You must find it hard to spend any money here.... the local dairy owner and his BMW...the bottle shop owner and his Porsche.....:innocent:
Its pretty hard to avoid GST unless your a cash business....bloody hairdressers and their Ferraris.....

A few 4/2 some clearlite panels and bingo,GST avoided.

Coldrider
7th January 2011, 21:26
You must find it hard to spend any money here.... the local dairy owner and his BMW...the bottle shop owner and his Porsche.....:innocent:
Its pretty hard to avoid GST unless your a cash business....bloody hairdressers and their Ferraris.....Retailers bleating about overseas competition and GST avoidance, mate who are the tax payers in this country?

Juzz976
8th January 2011, 10:12
I wonder what would happen if loacal retailers had the balls to tell brands that have their products available at significantly lower prices elsewhere they'd no longer stock/promote their gear.

If you remove the ability for people to try for size then import or even just the reduced advertising for these brands they may consider giving the dealers a fairer market to compete in.

I would not support any brand that is willing to bypass their large account holders to sell to the public at the same or less than they'd sell to their dealers.

Basically they're using the dealers as free advertising and try for size for their products.

steve_t
8th January 2011, 10:16
I wonder what would happen if loacal retailers had the balls to tell brands that have their products available at significantly lower prices elsewhere they'd no longer stock/promote their gear.

If you remove the ability for people to try for size then import or even just the reduced advertising for these brands they may consider giving the dealers a fairer market to compete in.

I would not support any brand that is willing to bypass their large account holders to sell to the public at the same or less than they'd sell to their dealers.

Basically they're using the dealers as free advertising and try for size for their products.

I don't think there's many brand-name manufacturers selling direct-to-public, though I'm happy to be proven wrong. The issue of wholesalers selling direct-to-public is an issue for retailers though

onearmedbandit
8th January 2011, 10:24
I wonder what would happen if loacal retailers had the balls to tell brands that have their products available at significantly lower prices elsewhere they'd no longer stock/promote their gear.

If you remove the ability for people to try for size then import or even just the reduced advertising for these brands they may consider giving the dealers a fairer market to compete in.




I won't name the business, or the supplier, but one of our competitors got a special price on a certain plasma TV. Our buyer complained to the supplier, so they gave us the special price as well. Now of course our competitor was confident only they could sell at that price, so when customers started telling them we were price matching them, the competitor informed the supplier to either drop their price further or remove all their stock from their chain of stores. The supplier then dropped the price below cost just to keep their presence on the showroom floor (granted the special price only lasted one weekend).

Unfortunately I don't see the same thing happening at Blue Wing.

Voltaire
8th January 2011, 11:37
Hasn't it always been the plan of vehicle dealships to sell the vehicles at low margins and really coin it on spares?
I saw a tank on Ebay for a 900ssie and they said they retail for 2K US.......I got one on TM for $245.00( although it was second hand).
I was working for a supplier of computer room a/c and their margins were 30% on units and at least 60% on parts....saying that they could sit around for a year of two, so you have to factor in storage, interest, stocktaking....
I did cringe when quoting prices on parts.." its not like your paying for it yourself....":innocent:

Robert Taylor
8th January 2011, 11:47
Retailers bleating about overseas competition and GST avoidance, mate who are the tax payers in this country?

The GST avoidance issue is very positively being tightened up by the Government, and not before time. As is fraudulent invoicing, customs are now very attentive to this. If mainstream distributors have to pay clearance charges and gst on everything then why should they be effectively penalised by many private imports effectively avoiding all that?
Were it able to be worked out it would be interesting to see how many jobs ( for ordinary everyday kiwis ) have been lost through this factor alone............

Robert Taylor
8th January 2011, 11:50
I don't think there's many brand-name manufacturers selling direct-to-public, though I'm happy to be proven wrong. The issue of wholesalers selling direct-to-public is an issue for retailers though

The reality is fast becoming apparent that due to competition from the way the world has changed two margins ( wholesallae margin and retail margin ) are very much under threat

Brian d marge
8th January 2011, 12:13
I can say that the cost of Genuine Honda spares , here in Japan are very reasonable , ( sorry I just out the door in a few min so this is a quickie )

But For my Cr 250 the cost of crash damage and normal wear and tear is very reasonable

Example I throw a new chain and sprockets on every meeting , the chain 5k yen and sprockets 2k each Yen ( a lot of the time I may use an older sprocket and just bin the chain )

I went out the other night , and a typical cost for a nite on the piss is 3 to 4 k ( all you can eat and drink for one price )

The only time I get unstuck is for my older crs , eg the 85 , the rear shoes are no longer available , as are rear panels ,,,

Even if I was to buy a part now , over night , then 3 to 5 days to NZ is the quickest I can get parts to NZ

and there would be NO profit , in actual fact I lose a lot of time , sending individual parts ,,,

I would have to send a lot of headlights to pay a wage

Shit now I m late ,,,damn ..
Stephen

Mungatoke Mad
8th January 2011, 12:39
I just imported some stuff from the states for my bike and a friends. While I made some decent savings on my stuff, it was the part I got for my friend that blew me away. Honda want to charge over $600 for the seat cover for a 2009 CBR1000RR. That's $600+ for a piece of plastic smaller than the cover of a magazine. Yes it comes painted and with decals. However I bought the same part for him from America for US$164 (NZ$210), add on shipping, customs and GST it still came out at being under half price.

Seriously. It's a fucking joke. I know it's not the dealers who set the price (thanks Blue Wing) but $600 for a fucking piece of plastic? After this experience (took less than 2wks to get here right on xmas time) I know I'll be looking overseas first. Sure I'll still look at NZ suppliers, but I won't be wasting any time if I find a similar situation to what I've just experienced.

So yes Robert Taylor and other staunch supporters of buying locally, I'd love to keep my money in NZ, keeping NZ'ers in jobs, keeping the NZ economy ticking along, but if it stays like this the only NZ companies I'll be supporting will be couriers.
I sheared the rear hub off my 97 XR 400 bout 9yrs ago & Honda wanted 2 charge me 840$ 4 a new 1 a 40$ pice of cast alloy & a 800$ wrapper a complete wheel they wanted over 2grand i ended up getting a 2nd hand "19"cr wheel 4 500$ & getting it engineered 2 go on the back .I've just been been thru the same sort of shit over X mas after my current KTMs last encounter with planet earth sourcing parts on the interweb Instead of shopping locally

Houseman
8th January 2011, 13:31
at the end of the day (love that saying), price point (for same product/brand) would be the biggest factor in peoples decisions on where to buy. Otherwise Pak n Save would have no customers.
For every 10 seat cowls sold by Honda dealers her in NZ at $600, there's probably another 30 purchased overseas at $210. If the price was a little lower, say only $300, they may very well double their sales.
(disclaimer, figures made up for example purposes only, but you get the gist)

Unfortunatley its not that simple, and most do not realise the effect of lowering your price has on mainitaing total gross margins. Pretty simple to explain on the back of a piece of paper using your example...

Say the landed cost in NZ for the part is indeed $210 and the shop sells 10 at $600, that means they make a total of $3900 from the deal ($390 per part).

If they were instead try and attract more business by lowering the price to a far more competitive $300 as you say, they now only make $90 per sale would need to sell an extra 34 parts JUST TO BE EXACTLY WHERE THEY ARE NOW (selling only 10). Even if they captured all of the 30 "missed" sales online from being at $600, they are still better off letting them go.

No matter what the business, it is a fact that if you have a standard margin of 30%, and you drop your price by 10%, you have to sell over 2x the volume to be any better off than where you were. Hence lowering prices to compete has a huge impact on bottom line and bikes shops close. Sad but true, the market always wins.

MarkH
8th January 2011, 14:17
Unfortunatley its not that simple, and most do not realise the effect of lowering your price has on mainitaing total gross margins. Pretty simple to explain on the back of a piece of paper using your example...

Say the landed cost in NZ for the part is indeed $210 and the shop sells 10 at $600, that means they make a total of $3900 from the deal ($390 per part).

If they were instead try and attract more business by lowering the price to a far more competitive $300 as you say, they now only make $90 per sale would need to sell an extra 34 parts JUST TO BE EXACTLY WHERE THEY ARE NOW (selling only 10). Even if they captured all of the 30 "missed" sales online from being at $600, they are still better off letting them go.

No matter what the business, it is a fact that if you have a standard margin of 30%, and you drop your price by 10%, you have to sell over 2x the volume to be any better off than where you were. Hence lowering prices to compete has a huge impact on bottom line and bikes shops close. Sad but true, the market always wins.

I agree with you 100% and I agree with the supplier and retailer having the right to set the margins to their best advantage. Of course I think that any supplier setting their margins to a level where they make less sales, but more profit, which is their right - they need to be willing to accept me being one of those who they miss out a sale to.

They make their decision and I'll make my decision. My decision may not necessarily be to buy the item from overseas, it could be to buy it 2nd hand through Trade Me or it might be to flag the purchase completely.
In fact I have visited a bike shop, got a price on a part and decided that I just didn't HAVE to have that part. So, yeah - there is some broken plastic on my scooter, better that then to be over $600 poorer. Everything works well enough despite the broken plastic so I'll live with it for now.


The GST avoidance issue is very positively being tightened up by the Government, and not before time. As is fraudulent invoicing, customs are now very attentive to this. If mainstream distributors have to pay clearance charges and gst on everything then why should they be effectively penalised by many private imports effectively avoiding all that?
Were it able to be worked out it would be interesting to see how many jobs ( for ordinary everyday kiwis ) have been lost through this factor alone............

What about when the customer decides to simply not make the purchase at all because it costs more than they are willing to spend? How many jobs would have been lost through this factor alone?

What about when I buy from one store instead of another and the one I don't buy from goes under because too many others have done the same thing?

I just can't spend my life feeling guilty for every decision to not give money to a business, no matter the reason.

I am aware that some overseas sellers don't put the full value of goods on the custom declaration and obviously that isn't right - though in my case I usually don't pay GST because the goods just aren't worth enough to make the GST sufficient to warrant the cost of customs collecting the GST from me. But it would be a rare purchase where the cost of GST would make it not worth importing the item. Mostly it would just be a few more dollars for the NZ Govt. to use for whatever. The majority of my packages from overseas have a total cost of under NZ$300 so we are only talking about $40 or so worth of GST and it would cost most of that to get me to pay it.

ynot slow
8th January 2011, 14:28
The gst issue is similar to the old sales tax from years ago,when you'd bring back stereos etc due to exhorbitant sales and excise tax on them,except in that case the govt scrapped the tax(along with import duty on clothes which meant thousands were unemployed,but cheap clothes were available)on most goods,this scenario is the opposite way.

Hell in 1983 I went to Sydney(airfares $1200 return for 2)high season at xmas though,we bought a microwave for $119,and car stereo for $229,the receipts were kept and with microwave I kept the newspaper add as proof as it was almost 35%off.The stereo guy offered to mark receipt as $129 stereo,$50 speakers to lower tax on entry home,it worked out we had to pay $25 on microwave(thanks to paper advert)as customs lady couldn't believe cost and without it she was going to hit us for tax on $180aus(converted to kiwi),think tax on kitchen items was 45%,but stereo was 125%IIRC,we ended up paying $125 on stereo approx.Both items had value here of $600 each,man microwaves have improved since the old Sharp ones lol.

As an aside checking cost for sprockets and chains the cost is cheaper here than online from what I've seen,i.e Cycletreads on trade me $220 starting cost for me,several offshore places $2-300GBP,$2-300US,sure chains are better quality maybe,but was late when looking.

ynot slow
8th January 2011, 14:39
What about when I buy from one store instead of another and the one I don't buy from goes under because too many others have done the same thing?

I just can't spend my life feeling guilty for every decision to not give money to a business, no matter the reason.



True competition comes in form of shops in your town or area,take Taranaki as an example,Hawera has 3 electrical outlets,Stratford 2,Inglewood 1,New Plymouth heaps,and only 50mins drive from Hawera is Wanganui or New Plymouth.This also not counting Warehouse and Mitre10 which sell similar items,and other shops which I may have ommitted which may sell limited electrical stock.

I knew an owner of a small local shoe shop,he asked every rep if they sold to the Warehouse(was opposite him at the time),if they did he said I haven't the buying power,and his customer base was not up market but not entry level,the hard part is finding your customer base,fine line between stocking lower quality and top quality,and making money.

rwh
8th January 2011, 14:57
take Taranaki as an example,Hawera has 3 electrical outlets,Stratford 2,Inglewood 1,New Plymouth heaps,and only 50mins drive from Hawera is Wanganui or New Plymouth.

Damn - I guess there are lots of extension cords and multiboxes in Taranaki.

Here in the big smoke, I have 4 outlets in one room, and some of them are doubles!

:rofl:

Richard

Robert Taylor
8th January 2011, 15:00
I agree with you 100% and I agree with the supplier and retailer having the right to set the margins to their best advantage. Of course I think that any supplier setting their margins to a level where they make less sales, but more profit, which is their right - they need to be willing to accept me being one of those who they miss out a sale to.

They make their decision and I'll make my decision. My decision may not necessarily be to buy the item from overseas, it could be to buy it 2nd hand through Trade Me or it might be to flag the purchase completely.
In fact I have visited a bike shop, got a price on a part and decided that I just didn't HAVE to have that part. So, yeah - there is some broken plastic on my scooter, better that then to be over $600 poorer. Everything works well enough despite the broken plastic so I'll live with it for now.



What about when the customer decides to simply not make the purchase at all because it costs more than they are willing to spend? How many jobs would have been lost through this factor alone?

What about when I buy from one store instead of another and the one I don't buy from goes under because too many others have done the same thing?

I just can't spend my life feeling guilty for every decision to not give money to a business, no matter the reason.

I am aware that some overseas sellers don't put the full value of goods on the custom declaration and obviously that isn't right - though in my case I usually don't pay GST because the goods just aren't worth enough to make the GST sufficient to warrant the cost of customs collecting the GST from me. But it would be a rare purchase where the cost of GST would make it not worth importing the item. Mostly it would just be a few more dollars for the NZ Govt. to use for whatever. The majority of my packages from overseas have a total cost of under NZ$300 so we are only talking about $40 or so worth of GST and it would cost most of that to get me to pay it.

If you read all of my posts you will see that I concede there are issues with big price discrepancies, its just that being in wholesale and also being a consumer I can see both sides of the problem, and it is indeed a very big problem. The days of protectionism are gone but somehow the problem needs to be fixed. The solution is not simple and involves a lot of pain.

Ocean1
8th January 2011, 17:52
If mainstream distributors have to pay clearance charges and gst on everything then why should they be effectively penalised by many private imports effectively avoiding all that?

That's a Katman mistake.

They're not being penalised by the private importers.

They're being penalised by the Governments import duty and GST rorts.

steve_t
8th January 2011, 18:33
That's a Katman mistake.

They're not being penalised by the private importers.

They're being penalised by the Governments import duty and GST rorts.

Read the quote you took from RT again. He didn't say private importers were directly penalising retailers. They are "effectively penalised" by the government's lack of consistency in charging duty on private imports.

Katman
8th January 2011, 18:52
That's a Katman mistake.



Katman doesn't make mistakes.

warewolf
8th January 2011, 19:52
Yup, kathmandu usually sells ggod quality products..
But at their "1/2 price sale"? = normal retail price at any other place.:yes:No, they sell mid-quality products. The gear is no longer as good as the likes of Macpac, Mountain Designs, The North Face, Columbia etc etc; those days are long, long gone. Tramping boots are about the last thing that's decent quality (or were 10 years ago - that's probably changed now, too).

At full price, their inferior products don't stack up against the premium competition. On sale, the price matches the quality so it's worth buying.

On topic... Kathmandu used to be a serious outdoor / tramping specialist shop. They've gone mainstream with a huge range of cheaply-made "everyday" and car-camping gear (and gimmicky unnecessary crap) targeting the masses, in order to increase their sales volumes. Unfortunately I can't see the motorcycle industry being able to do the same thing. Bicycle shops: yes. Motorbicycle shops: no. About the only way would be if (when) the price of fuel keeps climbing, and ppl ditch their cars in favour of scooters... this started to happen 2-3 years ago when go-juice cracked $2/L or thereabouts, but it wasn't just motorbike shops, everyman and his dog started selling scooters.

Ocean1
8th January 2011, 19:52
Read the quote you took from RT again. He didn't say private importers were directly penalising retailers. They are "effectively penalised" by the government's lack of consistency in charging duty on private imports.

Wrong.


effectively penalised by many private imports effectively avoiding all that?

But knowing Robert's not silly enough to blame anyone for avoiding oportunistic and unreasonable duties and taxes I'd say you're right with regard to where he indended to indicate the blame lies.

Why don't you ask him?

warewolf
8th January 2011, 19:53
The majority of my packages from overseas have a total cost of under NZ$300 so we are only talking about $40 or so worth of GST and it would cost most of that to get me to pay it.The govt only mandates collection when taxes reach $50. That used to mean a $400 limit at 12.5% GST, but now it's only $333.34 at 15% GST.

Brian d marge
10th January 2011, 00:38
Unfortunatley its not that simple, and most do not realise the effect of lowering your price has on mainitaing total gross margins. Pretty simple to explain on the back of a piece of paper using your example...

Say the landed cost in NZ for the part is indeed $210 and the shop sells 10 at $600, that means they make a total of $3900 from the deal ($390 per part).

If they were instead try and attract more business by lowering the price to a far more competitive $300 as you say, they now only make $90 per sale would need to sell an extra 34 parts JUST TO BE EXACTLY WHERE THEY ARE NOW (selling only 10). Even if they captured all of the 30 "missed" sales online from being at $600, they are still better off letting them go.

No matter what the business, it is a fact that if you have a standard margin of 30%, and you drop your price by 10%, you have to sell over 2x the volume to be any better off than where you were. Hence lowering prices to compete has a huge impact on bottom line and bikes shops close. Sad but true, the market always wins.

I can see the numbers above working ok but Call me simplistic

landed price + overheads + profit margin = sales price

If the sales price is not what the market will bear ,,, you going to have a problem shifting stock and with the cost in stocking that part eating away at the profit ,,,,

I can see what you are saying , one part high price or ten parts low price , not so much work with one part than there is with 10

But it strikes me that there isnt a lot of money in the motorcycle market these days , so you would have to be very price conscious or Service orientated ( I have a feeling that says a lot of people choose by price rather than service,,,,)

So yes while the Maths does indeed stack up, I cant see parts making a profit ( which I assume is what was being inferred )

but on the other hand there cant be any Justification to Some of the prices charged for some parts ( I can only say for Honda CR parts, )

but again , some of the prices charged when I was in NZ a couple of years ago weren't that bad, in fact pretty darn good actually )

Stephen

imdying
10th January 2011, 08:29
If they were instead try and attract more business by lowering the price to a far more competitive $300 as you say, they now only make $90 per sale would need to sell an extra 34 parts JUST TO BE EXACTLY WHERE THEY ARE NOW (selling only 10). Even if they captured all of the 30 "missed" sales online from being at $600, they are still better off letting them go.Except for one small thing... at that price they're unlikely to sell even one.

Houseman
10th January 2011, 19:03
Except for one small thing... at that price they're unlikely to sell even one.

It was more the principle I was trying to illustrate, the figures are meaningless really.

You are right though, I am in the business of selling patent protected products and the day after the patent expires there are at least two copies, a year later there are 10. You can bitch and moan all you like about losing margin but your point is proved irrevocably (sp?) in that case, if you don't lower your price close to the new "normal", you aint selling nothing. I have seen companies in our situation be arrogant and say "we have the branded product, you pay full price". Million dollar products become worth a few grand within 12 months.

I guess my view on all this is I feel really very sorry for the bike shops, I really do. But it is what it is and the game is changing fast. Time to "get busy living or get busy dying" as the movie said...

Good book on the subject of change if anyone has read "Who Moved my Cheese"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F

Brian d marge
10th January 2011, 20:14
It was more the principle I was trying to illustrate, the figures are meaningless really.

You are right though, I am in the business of selling patent protected products and the day after the patent expires there are at least two copies, a year later there are 10. You can bitch and moan all you like about losing margin but your point is proved irrevocably (sp?) in that case, if you don't lower your price close to the new "normal", you aint selling nothing. I have seen companies in our situation be arrogant and say "we have the branded product, you pay full price". Million dollar products become worth a few grand within 12 months.

I guess my view on all this is I feel really very sorry for the bike shops, I really do. But it is what it is and the game is changing fast. Time to "get busy living or get busy dying" as the movie said...

Good book on the subject of change if anyone has read "Who Moved my Cheese"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F

I keep trying to think of how bike shops can and will survive . Yes supplying toys to the rich will work during boom times , but as the market dries up ...

Scooters MAY be an answer what with the price of petrol, and of course the leisure market , MX , Racing , trials etc. but I dont see that being a mainstay ( as in parts , and apparel )
I keep coming back to the same old nut shell, supplying people with leisure . As in full back up so they can enjoy the past time of motorbikes ( with the back room at break even )

Im happy to be very wrong , this I assume would mean that the M/c indusrty is alive and well in NZ ....

I dont think the Mc industry is dead , but it is changing , quite fast ..

Stephen

Smifffy
10th January 2011, 20:19
Maybe part of the problem is the change in demographic of the market as discussed elsewhere on here.

The 40+ biker who probably has more than one mode of transport, and can only afford a bike because for the previous 20 years had been rather canny when it comes to spending $$, have been through a couple of recessions, possibly been laid off more than once and know full well that there is no business in New Zealand that believes in loyalty, unless it is from the customer base.

Viscount Montgomery
10th January 2011, 22:05
Ah yes, patents.. Take the well known obscenely priced racetech emulators as an example, one of motorcyclings' most lousy pricing rip-offs from out of this last decade. A magnet for the various scurrying grifters and middlemen who will always shamelessly grasp at any half-chance to pilfer a profit for themselves from someone else's product.. Actually a good effective little gadget that smooths the big bumps out nicely from your old damper forks, but, outrageously, on close inspection, you'll find that they're they're just a $7.36c hunk of brass that you could piss-easily spin up to shape with a lathe and file in your own carshed from scrap-metal. And with a 72 cent spring and 31 cent bolt added. And having been disgustingly sold worldwide at hundreds of dollars a pair for years.

But, DIY kiwi ingenuity is no longer acceptable and ain't kosher or politically correct in todays modern world, and not leaving that sort of thing for the self-appointed experts should be frowned upon.. The experts say so.. So forget all that kiwi DIY in the carshed stuff sorry, those days have been well and truly stomped on by the people who "know better." "For the better."

Now the racetech emulator patent has expired there seems to be various other brands surfacing now, but you can bet your bottom dollar the propagandists who clutched and held the original patent for all that time will still try insisting and telling the gullible that the "alternative" brands of emulator are all nasty shit-junk that won't work and won't last - or "they're not as good as ours." In their minds it'll still be legitimate to keep ripping the public on price. Even though you can guarantee the "one brand only" propagandists have never even used the other stuff - in other words you won't find one iota of fucken proof that the new emulator brands are shit, and the suckered types will probably still dumbly shell-out big bucks on the "established" pricing-rip product out there without question, all based on very sleazy advice they hear from the middlemen who harbor hidden agendas...

It's a dog devour dog no-holds-barred business world alright, pity the inexperienced and the gullible as the "elite" darting-eyed money-takers all sit back briskly rubbing their palms, sneering and laughing as to how simple it all is to take the candy from all the clueless babies out there.....

Mort
10th January 2011, 23:07
You are a bitter twisted fuck VM.

short-circuit
11th January 2011, 07:30
You are a bitter twisted fuck VM.

:shifty: "He knows too much"

imdying
11th January 2011, 08:06
racetech emulators

Actually a good effective little gadget that smooths the big bumps out nicely from your old damper forks, but, outrageously, on close inspection, you'll find that they're they're just a $7.36c hunk of brass that you could piss-easily spin up to shape with a lathe and file in your own carshed from scrap-metal.That's not what I'm paying for if I buy those. I'm paying for someone to design it correctly in the first place. Sure I could make one, but am I making the right thing?

I don't much care about that though, I just want to be treated like Hondas other customers... they harp on about being a global brand, but they don't put their money where their mouth is.

clint640
11th January 2011, 08:39
. But it would be a rare purchase where the cost of GST would make it not worth importing the item. .

Exactly. I've got about $1K worth of genuine KTM parts on order from the USA at present, & I'm going to pay the full whack of GST with a smile on my face, because I'll still have almost $600 left in my pocket compared with buying the same parts locally. In the current market KTM NZ have a simple choice; they can make a little money off me, or they can make none at all, they are choosing the latter.

Local retailers, & those in Oz kicking up a stink at present, obviously have little idea of the reality of the situation if they think getting GST applied to low value imports will help them. Most people don't bother importing stuff to save 15%, it's when it's more like 25-50% that the consumer cries enough.

Cheers
Clint

R-Soul
11th January 2011, 08:55
Are you serious?

Where the fuck did you pluck that sort of mark-up figure from???

I was not referreing to bike shops in particular. So nothing personal. I was referring to the NZ suppply chains in general.

I have tried to take a product to market before in NZ. A small plastic thing that costs less than 70c to land here in NZ, ends up costing some $10-15 by the time it retails in hardware stores. The supply chain nearly made the entire product concept unfeasible.

You are looking at 150%- 300% (and more) markups along the line, from distributors, wholesalers, and retailers. And that with me making 50%, and taking all the risk. This is apparently standard fare. I call it price gouging.

I still have no idea how the $2 shops do it. They must pretty much get their stuff free (or damn close). And have a single entity that does everything in the line, from shipping to retail. And work on the narrowest of margins. They are DEFINITELY NOT using the standard NZ distributors and large size retailers.

Katman
11th January 2011, 09:26
I still have no idea how the $2 shops do it. They must pretty much get their stuff free (or damn close). And have a single entity that does everything in the line, from shipping to retail. And work on the narrowest of margins. They are DEFINITELY NOT using the standard NZ distributors and large size retailers.

I hope you're not suggesting that motorcycle shops should emulate the $2 shops.

R-Soul
11th January 2011, 13:10
I hope you're not suggesting that motorcycle shops should emulate the $2 shops.

Only the ones that want a shedload of my business... :whistle:

There is a business model out there for every market...

ukusa
11th January 2011, 14:17
Exactly. I've got about $1K worth of genuine KTM parts on order from the USA at present, & I'm going to pay the full whack of GST with a smile on my face, because I'll still have almost $600 left in my pocket compared with buying the same parts locally. In the current market KTM NZ have a simple choice; they can make a little money off me, or they can make none at all, they are choosing the latter.

Local retailers, & those in Oz kicking up a stink at present, obviously have little idea of the reality of the situation if they think getting GST applied to low value imports will help them. Most people don't bother importing stuff to save 15%, it's when it's more like 25-50% that the consumer cries enough.

Cheers
Clint

well put. Even with a shit exchange rate & if GST was on everything, the savings are too great to ignore. Some people are bullshitting themselves when they say "but I'm also paying for the expertise & warranty" when buying local. The truth is that most parts are still covered by warranty anyway, and when I'm adding a chrome rack or a sissy bar, what expertise do I really need?

Katman
11th January 2011, 14:20
Only the ones that want a shedload of my business... :whistle:

There is a business model out there for every market...

Have you seen the shit that's sold in the $2 shops?

Half of it's not even worth $2.

Brian d marge
11th January 2011, 14:30
I have to say though , the products and the price I have paid for stuuf in NZ can ( i think ) be pretty good though

Just to compare , Budgets in CHCH and Casbolts Quasimoto good products , very reasonable price , good customer service ... ( apply the opposite to the Name i listed that should have a NUT on the end of it, they are truly shocking)


We have the 100 yen shop here and the products are not to bad , if I am going to a meeting and I forget my tie , 100 yen shop, looks ok !

we even have the 99 yen shop and I believe the ..yes.... 69 yen shop .. and no they don't sell what I think you are thinking

Stephen

R-Soul
11th January 2011, 15:09
Have you seen the shit that's sold in the $2 shops?

Half of it's not even worth $2.

Hell most of it is worth more than $2 on raw materials alone, much less assembly and shipping from teh far ends of the world. Thats why I cannot figure out their business model. Or correlate their transport and shipping and distribution costs with the alleged costs of some of the (similarly sized) goods on sale in bike shops.

Besides, this is changing the discussion. The point I am making is that the costs to the dstributor/wjolesaler/retailer are always pleaded as being extravagant. But they need not be. Getting the same stuff from around the world at airmail/courier distribution costs proves that. Perhaps if your distributors are giving you such expensive goods, you should dump them and order its yourself from the states for cheaper.

Reckless
11th January 2011, 16:02
Have you seen the shit that's sold in the bike shops?

Tail pieces for $600 you can buy elsewhere at $214
Exhaust systems for $1500 you can buy elsewhere at 1/3 of that?

Half of it's not even worth it.

:msn-wink:

I'm not try to wind you up Katman but I edited the above for an alternate view?

And it appears in practice the market is deciding if this thread is anything to go by?
I'm not saying its right or good for NZ but the market is deciding where their dollar is being spent!

I say again its not up the Joe Blogs to fix the industry, its the industries problem. If the $2 shop buying/supply model is working maybe it does need a look at. It doesn't mean you have to sell low quality products!
Maybe they have no middlemen and maybe with modern freight systems, internet communication you don't need middlemen. I certainly don't imagine the Wharehouse buys much to off a middleman they'd be going overseas directly?
It looks like your customers have certainly caught into this!

The trap of coarse is that the bike shops need actual bikes to sell and the importers have got this tied up with parts so they can't go overseas independently or even as a national Co-op for parts and accessories or they won't be supplied Honda's or Kawasaki's. Shops feel pretty trapped I'd imagine.

So in my view the only answer is fix the whole supply chain or put up with closing shops and people going overseas to purchase goods.
To totally fix the imports at customs or lower the import threshold is only going to create a captive market and I don't think even the govt will go there! I'd guess if this became the case people would soon start deciding its cheaper to actually live in that another country. Rather than an uncompetitive, controlled, expensive place, face it, a price check is only a Google away and that ain't gonna change in the near future!!

Secondly there appears to be so much price disparity its actually worth paying the Duty, freight and the 15% G.S.T.
How are bike suppliers going to stop that? Regulate the shit out of NZ to retain their margins or fix things to get your customers back? Its not hard we do feel very loyal!!
Looks like 30% or so might be acceptable over what can be landed for here (if this thread is anything to go by) but 100-150% is not!
So how are you going to meet your market as its not coming to you at the moment?

Katman
11th January 2011, 17:10
If the $2 shop buying/supply model is working maybe it does need a look at.


The reason the $2 shop system works is because a large percentage of New Zealanders base their purchasing decisions on nothing other than price - and consequently buy a lot of shit.

Then, come the day they discover they've bought shit, they moan their arses off.

It's the New Zealand way.

The Chinese must be pissing themselves laughing at us.

rustic101
11th January 2011, 17:33
I've just discovered ebay after my flatmate recently made some purchases and the quality etc was amazing let alone the price. Shes showed me an 'Apples for Apples' comparison using Motomail as the control measure.

I was blown away. Even with the postage there was up to 60% savings on some items identical as those 'on sale' and in stores here. That aside some like the ncom intercom were about the same price.

My biggest concern was around counterfeit products but all of the items she has purchased are genuine..

The best part is you don't have to deal with sales people who can treat you poorly if you are not tooled up in your riding gear. Thats another story though lol.

My experience of late whether that be buying parts or real estate is that Kiwis are lazy and will just pay the price..This I believe allows retailers etc to gouge the consumer.

rustic101
11th January 2011, 17:37
The reason the $2 shop system works is because a large percentage of New Zealanders base their purchasing decisions on nothing other than price - and consequently buy a lot of shit.

Then, come the day they discover they've bought shit, they moan their arses off.

I use to say 'buy cheap buy twice'. However I'm changing that to buy wise, buy once ;) Its all about the research :)

MarkH
11th January 2011, 17:54
I use to say 'buy cheap buy twice'. However I'm changing that to buy wise, buy once ;) Its all about the research :)

So very true - I've bought great stuff at a wide variety of prices, some cheap items are worth way more than their cost and some expensive items aren't worth half of what they are selling for.

Smifffy
11th January 2011, 18:22
The reason the $2 shop system works is because a large percentage of New Zealanders base their purchasing decisions on nothing other than price - and consequently buy a lot of shit.

Then, come the day they discover they've bought shit, they moan their arses off.

It's the New Zealand way.

The Chinese must be pissing themselves laughing at us.



Generally speaking the $2 shop model, and more so the "somebody or other's emporium" stores base their business model on picking up stock through liquidations and disposals.

Some typical hard working business person who has a proper business model, and myriad overheads to cover buys in and stores a bunch of stock.

In order to serve his business model and cover his overheads, along with an appropriate margin to keep him only slightly below the poverty line, he sets his retail price accordingly.

He sells one or two items, and the customers seem ok about it, but the things aren't racing out the door as he expected they would when he did his initial market research and found that 1 or two people were absolutely gaga for the product and would buy it at any cost.

He drops the price, advertises a little and sells a few more.
The rest of the market starts parallel importing, or moves onto the next new fad, or something and for whatever reason he now has a pallet load sitting in storage.

If he's quick enough he manages to sell the whole lot as a bulk deal and realises maybe 20 cents in the dollar.

If he has too many of these product lines sitting on too many pallets in too many storerooms, then his liquidators sell it for him at maybe 10 cents in the dollar.

Del boy (or should that be Diao boy?) buys em up, swaps a few of em for someone else's pallets of junk and sends em out the door for 15 cents on the dollar and child labour behind the counter.

Most of the costs of the raw materials, shipping etc have been borne by the first guy who has sold his clubsport to buy a lawn mowing round, because after all he's a business man and could never work for anyone else again.

He might even start buying the parts for his lawnmowers from overseas web sites, or from Diao's cousin on Trademe.

98tls
11th January 2011, 18:22
I use to say 'buy cheap buy twice'. However I'm changing that to buy wise, buy once ;) Its all about the research :)

Indeed,generally with enough of it you will be forced to buy offshore when it comes to bike stuff(not always),ive no problem with a bloke owning a bike shop making a living but many times in my experience over the years the answer to my question "how much" has had me laughing.Ive even the odd time handed over my hard earned when the difference hasnt been to "laughable" in an attempt to support local business but generally no bugger that.

rustic101
11th January 2011, 18:43
Indeed,generally with enough of it you will be forced to buy offshore when it comes to bike stuff(not always),ive no problem with a bloke owning a bike shop making a living but many times in my experience over the years the answer to my question "how much" has had me laughing.Ive even the odd time handed over my hard earned when the difference hasnt been to "laughable" in an attempt to support local business but generally no bugger that.

Whole heartedly agree and I will (where reasonable) continue to support a Kiwi bike shop making a living...However I'll ensure I've explored alternatives that don't leave me booking into the soup kitchen for Christmas dinner ;)

I genuinely believe that most consumers are becoming wiser to shopping on-line Nationally and overseas and if Kiwi retailers in general are not careful will face a decline in business. The Retail Association already want to place a GST on imported (individual) purchases as well as driving Customs and Excise to tax more on imported goods.

Smifffy
11th January 2011, 18:50
Whole heartedly agree and I will (where reasonable) continue to support a Kiwi bike shop making a living...However I'll ensure I've explored alternatives that don't leave me booking into the soup kitchen for Christmas dinner ;)

I genuinely believe that most consumers are becoming wiser to shopping on-line Nationally and overseas and if Kiwi retailers in general are not careful will face a decline in business. The Retail Association already want to place a GST on imported (individual) purchases as well as driving Customs and Excise to tax more on imported goods.


I'd be ok with paying GST on all individually imported goods, but an increase in customs & excise would apply to shop stock too surely?

Teflon
11th January 2011, 19:23
I like ebay. click a couple of buttons and the shit turns up on your door step in 6 days. No fucking around + cunts from the states are good to deal with.

Super cheap is open on sundays so I buy my consumables from them.. some nice blondys who work there too

Quasievil
11th January 2011, 20:02
WARNING RANT AHEAD
This thread almost encourages me to stop my business and not bother really.
My Prices are good, my spec if better and lots of you fuckers go off shore to buy your gear so those that do FUCK YOU i hope the yanks and the euros are enjoying your money in their large T/O markets, and those that dont and support us Kiwis cheers and thank for the support but there are fewer of us around now and that number is falling.
Great stuff having a recession to top if all off!

You can go back to justifying how great the foreigners prices are and how eager you are spending your NZD with them, I will go back to wondering where the next sale is coming from to keep us going.
P.S you realise is all your doing is importing a cheaper wage for us all as well dont ya ??

RANT OVER as you where:msn-wink:.

Zamiam
11th January 2011, 20:13
I import just about all the stuff for my Harley myself. After freight etc. items rarely cost me even 2/3rds of the nz price. Recently priced a replacement visor and chinbar for my helmet. $310 in nz plus 50k trip to pickup from nearest dealer. $nz220 delivered to my door and that includes $62 freight. By way of comparison visor costing $127 when they want $240 for one in nz. Chinbar 30 versus 70.

Zamiam
11th January 2011, 20:23
It's a global market and everyone buys on price and service. Most of us get better prices and service from overseas than we do here. I have stood in 3 different hd dealerships waiting for service over the last couple of years and in 2 cases gave up and in the 3rd the quoted item ($900) wouldn't even have fitted my bike. Don't blame those of us who work hard for our dollar wanting to get the best buy with that money. Blame the fucken do gooders who are driving nz business costs through the roof. The business owner has to recover those costs from those buying off them.

98tls
11th January 2011, 20:25
WARNING RANT AHEAD
This thread almost encourages me to stop my business and not bother really.
My Prices are good, my spec if better and lots of you fuckers go off shore to buy your gear so those that do FUCK YOU i hope the yanks and the euros are enjoying your money in their large T/O markets, and those that dont and support us Kiwis cheers and thank for the support but there are fewer of us around now and that number is falling.
Great stuff having a recession to top if all off!

You can go back to justifying how great the foreigners prices are and how eager you are spending your NZD with them, I will go back to wondering where the next sale is coming from to keep us going.
P.S you realise is all your doing is importing a cheaper wage for us all as well dont ya ??

RANT OVER as you where:msn-wink:.

Goes back to whoever mentioned "research" eh,ive bought stuff off you and will again and believe me i am one of the worst "offenders" re buying stuff overseas.

Smifffy
11th January 2011, 20:57
WARNING RANT AHEAD
This thread almost encourages me to stop my business and not bother really.
My Prices are good, my spec if better and lots of you fuckers go off shore to buy your gear so those that do FUCK YOU i hope the yanks and the euros are enjoying your money in their large T/O markets, and those that dont and support us Kiwis cheers and thank for the support but there are fewer of us around now and that number is falling.
Great stuff having a recession to top if all off!

You can go back to justifying how great the foreigners prices are and how eager you are spending your NZD with them, I will go back to wondering where the next sale is coming from to keep us going.
P.S you realise is all your doing is importing a cheaper wage for us all as well dont ya ??

RANT OVER as you where:msn-wink:.

I thought your prices were more than competitive with the online big name stuff?

That was what I had been hearing, anyway FWIW.

I was also under the impression that your main products were manufactured locally, or at least to your specifications, rather than being imported the same as any other and having a margin tacked on.

Whatever, I hope you don't go out of business, nor anyone else does for that matter. You have to know your market, and if the market suddenly disappears on you then you would probably like to understand why.

Not that I am suggesting that your market is disappearing from you, as I was under (perhaps the misguided) impression that it wasn't.

Best of luck to the entire NZ motorcycle industry - long may it prosper - just not at the expense of the ever demanding consumer.

What happened to the Model T ford when GM started to offer cars in colours other than black?

What hapened to GM when the Japs started offering cars that didn't require engine rebuilds at 70k clicks and got twice the fuel mileage?

What happened to the NZ assembly plants when the kiwi consumer discovered that it unlike an avenger or cortina, it didn't matter on which day of the week a corolla was assembled?

When Toyota started manufacturing cars, they didn't have mass production or economies of scale, they had clapped out WWII equipment and jap-crap muck metal to work with. All they could do was listen to their customers and find a way to deliver what they wanted at a profit.

There was probably more iron in a 60's toyota than there is in the latest chev suburban :msn-wink:

Consumers will always expect more for less, whether the commodity is axes and blankets, or motherboards and memory.

If you don't believe that, I have a state of the art (once upon a time) P2 with 64mb of ram and 8 Gig hard drive I'll sell you for 3 grand, I'll even throw in a 56K modem, a 16x cd burner and a colour ink jet printer for free.

Of course I also wish I had a factory fresh model T in the garage to offer for sale, but that market is decidedly different to what it was in Henry's day.

This thread is about people being able to source the exact same item, at the exact same spec for significantly less than they are able to source it from anyone within NZ, for some strange reason. That being the case it is extremely difficult for the consumer to see where the extra value is being added. Several times the example has been given that it isn't even short lead times or availability.

Don't take it personally.

Brian d marge
11th January 2011, 20:57
WARNING RANT AHEAD
This thread almost encourages me to stop my business and not bother really.
My Prices are good, my spec if better and lots of you fuckers go off shore to buy your gear so those that do FUCK YOU i hope the yanks and the euros are enjoying your money in their large T/O markets, and those that dont and support us Kiwis cheers and thank for the support but there are fewer of us around now and that number is falling.
Great stuff having a recession to top if all off!

You can go back to justifying how great the foreigners prices are and how eager you are spending your NZD with them, I will go back to wondering where the next sale is coming from to keep us going.
P.S you realise is all your doing is importing a cheaper wage for us all as well dont ya ??

RANT OVER as you where:msn-wink:.

See post 350 and what about people who use Japanese yen to buy from NZ? and this year I will be spending a lot more in NZ

Stephen

Quasievil
11th January 2011, 21:02
Yeah like I said, my Rant is over :msn-wink:
Peace out, I actually am very lucky to be honest as I have a fantastic customer base and a great bunch of loyal people who help me hugely, for that im really grateful.

some of the posts kinda wound me up a tad, but I had a beer and im back to normal :apumpin:

Smifffy
11th January 2011, 21:06
Yeah like I said, my Rant is over :msn-wink:
Peace out, I actually am very lucky to be honest as I have a fantastic customer base and a great bunch of loyal people who help me hugely, for that im really grateful.

some of the posts kinda wound me up a tad, but I had a beer and im back to normal :apumpin:


Domestic, or Import? :msn-wink: Cheers!!

98tls
11th January 2011, 21:10
Yeah like I said, my Rant is over :msn-wink:
Peace out, I actually am very lucky to be honest as I have a fantastic customer base and a great bunch of loyal people who help me hugely, for that im really grateful.

some of the posts kinda wound me up a tad, but I had a beer and im back to normal :apumpin:

Fwiw as i posted ive bought off you and will again,did so because the price seemed reasonable and from the "research" (that bloody word again) on here suggested the product was good which both times has proved true.Doubt you have much to worry about fella,good business practice = good business .

warewolf
11th January 2011, 21:24
outrageously, on close inspection, you'll find that they're they're just a $7.36c hunk of brass that you could piss-easily spin up to shape with a lathe and file in your own carshed from scrap-metal. And with a 72 cent spring and 31 cent bolt added. And having been disgustingly sold worldwide at hundreds of dollars a pair for years.Materials: $10.00
Knowing how to put it together and tasking the risk of bringing it to market: priceless (or at least $100's, apparently).

Robert Taylor
13th January 2011, 22:04
Ah yes, patents.. Take the well known obscenely priced racetech emulators as an example, one of motorcyclings' most lousy pricing rip-offs from out of this last decade. A magnet for the various scurrying grifters and middlemen who will always shamelessly grasp at any half-chance to pilfer a profit for themselves from someone else's product.. Actually a good effective little gadget that smooths the big bumps out nicely from your old damper forks, but, outrageously, on close inspection, you'll find that they're they're just a $7.36c hunk of brass that you could piss-easily spin up to shape with a lathe and file in your own carshed from scrap-metal. And with a 72 cent spring and 31 cent bolt added. And having been disgustingly sold worldwide at hundreds of dollars a pair for years.

But, DIY kiwi ingenuity is no longer acceptable and ain't kosher or politically correct in todays modern world, and not leaving that sort of thing for the self-appointed experts should be frowned upon.. The experts say so.. So forget all that kiwi DIY in the carshed stuff sorry, those days have been well and truly stomped on by the people who "know better." "For the better."

Now the racetech emulator patent has expired there seems to be various other brands surfacing now, but you can bet your bottom dollar the propagandists who clutched and held the original patent for all that time will still try insisting and telling the gullible that the "alternative" brands of emulator are all nasty shit-junk that won't work and won't last - or "they're not as good as ours." In their minds it'll still be legitimate to keep ripping the public on price. Even though you can guarantee the "one brand only" propagandists have never even used the other stuff - in other words you won't find one iota of fucken proof that the new emulator brands are shit, and the suckered types will probably still dumbly shell-out big bucks on the "established" pricing-rip product out there without question, all based on very sleazy advice they hear from the middlemen who harbor hidden agendas...

It's a dog devour dog no-holds-barred business world alright, pity the inexperienced and the gullible as the "elite" darting-eyed money-takers all sit back briskly rubbing their palms, sneering and laughing as to how simple it all is to take the candy from all the clueless babies out there.....

I have the proof as I purchased and tested the copycat products. And youve got no idea how much work we have done with emulators. Plus our own one in development that is NOT a copy and with the right settings works way better. Of course there will be the matter of offsetting the development costs if we decide to commercialise them, understand if you will

Robert Taylor
13th January 2011, 22:08
Ah yes, patents.. Take the well known obscenely priced racetech emulators as an example, one of motorcyclings' most lousy pricing rip-offs from out of this last decade. A magnet for the various scurrying grifters and middlemen who will always shamelessly grasp at any half-chance to pilfer a profit for themselves from someone else's product.. Actually a good effective little gadget that smooths the big bumps out nicely from your old damper forks, but, outrageously, on close inspection, you'll find that they're they're just a $7.36c hunk of brass that you could piss-easily spin up to shape with a lathe and file in your own carshed from scrap-metal. And with a 72 cent spring and 31 cent bolt added. And having been disgustingly sold worldwide at hundreds of dollars a pair for years.

But, DIY kiwi ingenuity is no longer acceptable and ain't kosher or politically correct in todays modern world, and not leaving that sort of thing for the self-appointed experts should be frowned upon.. The experts say so.. So forget all that kiwi DIY in the carshed stuff sorry, those days have been well and truly stomped on by the people who "know better." "For the better."

Now the racetech emulator patent has expired there seems to be various other brands surfacing now, but you can bet your bottom dollar the propagandists who clutched and held the original patent for all that time will still try insisting and telling the gullible that the "alternative" brands of emulator are all nasty shit-junk that won't work and won't last - or "they're not as good as ours." In their minds it'll still be legitimate to keep ripping the public on price. Even though you can guarantee the "one brand only" propagandists have never even used the other stuff - in other words you won't find one iota of fucken proof that the new emulator brands are shit, and the suckered types will probably still dumbly shell-out big bucks on the "established" pricing-rip product out there without question, all based on very sleazy advice they hear from the middlemen who harbor hidden agendas...

It's a dog devour dog no-holds-barred business world alright, pity the inexperienced and the gullible as the "elite" darting-eyed money-takers all sit back briskly rubbing their palms, sneering and laughing as to how simple it all is to take the candy from all the clueless babies out there.....

BTW if you want to call people thieves via tags think about having the guts to do it in print and disclose exactly who you are. Gutless....

Smifffy
14th January 2011, 07:49
BTW if you want to call people thieves via tags think about having the guts to do it in print and disclose exactly who you are. Gutless....

Totally agree, fortunately for me I never scroll down that far lol.

ynot slow
14th January 2011, 20:07
Yeah like I said, my Rant is over :msn-wink:
Peace out, I actually am very lucky to be honest as I have a fantastic customer base and a great bunch of loyal people who help me hugely, for that im really grateful.

some of the posts kinda wound me up a tad, but I had a beer and im back to normal :apumpin:

Hope it aint Waikato beer.:sick:Can't complain with my gear and cost to me,trousers $75,jacket $150,cordura jacket$100,gloves $90 (only crap when soaked lol)the fact I seem to be looking when you have a clean out/sample sale is fine by me,and the price and quality is hard to beat(in fact unbeatable for what it cost me).

PeeJay
15th January 2011, 07:06
Whats the difference between CKT importing Ohlins and me importing Ohlins?
Thats right NOTHING.
The actual importing and remitting of funds overseas, it doesnt matter who does it, the private importer or the "authorised agent" money still goes overseas.
The reason importers import goods isnt to create kiwi jobs, it is to turn a profit.
A private import ? rather than profit, a better price. generally speaking.

Now if Ohlins had a factory in NZ producing shocks for the local market and for export, employing a few kiwis, paying taxes etc well then I would have some sympathy for their situation because private imports of Ohlins will affect kiwi jobs etc etc etc.

Note I am NOT talking about the services CKT provides (hard to import those) only the importing of goods.

My point is this
A lot of the retailers/importers bleating by about private imports conveniently leave out a critical bit of info, they are also sending money offshore to pay for all these goods
The only employment directly related to someone importing gear is related to storing it and selling it. ie if you have truckloads of gear you probably need a storeman and maybe some sort of sales guy
Another misleading bleat, business importer has to pay gst, forgets to mention that gst is refunded.
The ONLY extra the business importer may have to pay is $50-$100 brokerage/fees per shipment.
Another bit of info, business imports have the same fee & gst free limits as private importers, ie less than $1000 maybe free, less than $400 no fees no gst

So if you wish to buy something overseas, go for it, you are not causing the downfall of the NZ way of life.

idleidolidyll
15th January 2011, 08:16
one reason for our high costs is that some of our brands are sub agencies from across the Tasman.

The aussies clip the ticket and do bugger all for us

i'm not interested in supporting aussies economy and prefer to deal with local agancies if i can

Digitdion
15th January 2011, 08:38
Whats the difference between CKT importing Ohlins and me importing Ohlins?
Thats right NOTHING.
The actual importing and remitting of funds overseas, it doesnt matter who does it, the private importer or the "authorised agent" money still goes overseas.
The reason importers import goods isnt to create kiwi jobs, it is to turn a profit.
A private import ? rather than profit, a better price. generally speaking.

Now if Ohlins had a factory in NZ producing shocks for the local market and for export, employing a few kiwis, paying taxes etc well then I would have some sympathy for their situation because private imports of Ohlins will affect kiwi jobs etc etc etc.

Note I am NOT talking about the services CKT provides (hard to import those) only the importing of goods.

My point is this
A lot of the retailers/importers bleating by about private imports conveniently leave out a critical bit of info, they are also sending money offshore to pay for all these goods
The only employment directly related to someone importing gear is related to storing it and selling it. ie if you have truckloads of gear you probably need a storeman and maybe some sort of sales guy
Another misleading bleat, business importer has to pay gst, forgets to mention that gst is refunded.
The ONLY extra the business importer may have to pay is $50-$100 brokerage/fees per shipment.
Another bit of info, business imports have the same fee & gst free limits as private importers, ie less than $1000 maybe free, less than $400 no fees no gst

So if you wish to buy something overseas, go for it, you are not causing the downfall of the NZ way of life.

Hear Here!

pzkpfw
15th January 2011, 12:41
Nobody in N.Z. even really stocks bits for my bike. And I know someone who used a dealer to order a bit for his bike (which was the same as mine) and when it turned out to be the wrong bit, it was his problem not the dealers. What's the point?

ynot slow
15th January 2011, 16:14
A case and point,Lazy boy lounge suites(can't be bothered spelling properly as brand name)used to be made in Takapuna,then they decided to import some styles,mostly leather,then added more and more,till they do stuff all manufacturing(compared to 5-10yrs ago).

Now retailers can import their own container and sell,we used to bring a 40' container in twice or three times year,and that was a 2 store company,usually ended up with about 10x3piece suites,20 chairs etc,not cheap as paid for in us$,but delivery 5 months out was interesting.

Robert Taylor
17th January 2011, 18:39
Mods can you please remove the less than endearing reference to my name. The author of it has no idea of the cost of being in business nor does he pay any credence to the HUGE amount of foc help we offer to anyone that asks. This forum, like many really is an insight into the often nasty side of human nature. Im prepared to think the best of people but its hard to not be cynical and mistrustful of people that are so callous and hide behind forum names. That is gutless and even people that I amintermittently at odds with ( like Shaun ) have my grudging respect in having the guts to be totally up front who they are.

Smifffy
17th January 2011, 19:36
Mods can you please remove the less than endearing reference to my name. The author of it has no idea of the cost of being in business nor does he pay any credence to the HUGE amount of foc help we offer to anyone that asks. This forum, like many really is an insight into the often nasty side of human nature. Im prepared to think the best of people but its hard to not be cynical and mistrustful of people that are so callous and hide behind forum names. That is gutless and even people that I amintermittently at odds with ( like Shaun ) have my grudging respect in having the guts to be totally up front who they are.

Good call, robust discussion is one thing snarky name calling is something else.

+1

Quasievil
17th January 2011, 19:52
So if you wish to buy something overseas, go for it, you are not causing the downfall of the NZ way of life.

Proof again that KB is full of morons

onearmedbandit
17th January 2011, 20:09
Proof again that KB is full of morons

From one person's opinion you formed that conclusion? I guess that helps prove your point though doesn't it?

Robert Taylor
17th January 2011, 20:15
Whats the difference between CKT importing Ohlins and me importing Ohlins?
Thats right NOTHING.
The actual importing and remitting of funds overseas, it doesnt matter who does it, the private importer or the "authorised agent" money still goes overseas.
The reason importers import goods isnt to create kiwi jobs, it is to turn a profit.
A private import ? rather than profit, a better price. generally speaking.

Now if Ohlins had a factory in NZ producing shocks for the local market and for export, employing a few kiwis, paying taxes etc well then I would have some sympathy for their situation because private imports of Ohlins will affect kiwi jobs etc etc etc.

Note I am NOT talking about the services CKT provides (hard to import those) only the importing of goods.

My point is this
A lot of the retailers/importers bleating by about private imports conveniently leave out a critical bit of info, they are also sending money offshore to pay for all these goods
The only employment directly related to someone importing gear is related to storing it and selling it. ie if you have truckloads of gear you probably need a storeman and maybe some sort of sales guy
Another misleading bleat, business importer has to pay gst, forgets to mention that gst is refunded.
The ONLY extra the business importer may have to pay is $50-$100 brokerage/fees per shipment.
Another bit of info, business imports have the same fee & gst free limits as private importers, ie less than $1000 maybe free, less than $400 no fees no gst

So if you wish to buy something overseas, go for it, you are not causing the downfall of the NZ way of life.

Remind me then not to support anything that you derive income from and to encourage others to do exactly the same,
Aside from the fact there is a lot you havent grasped its not lost on me that we have sorted a LOT of suspension units out that were privately imported on the false belief that a huge saving was to be made. The big issue was that the resellers in the States have no idea about our local roading conditions.
Backup is a big thing or am I just old fashioned? Or do I just abhor the dog eat dog mentality this country has degenerated to ?
Proudly, my business offers backup, we are not ''perfect'' most of the time but we are tenacious in helping people. That is a point of difference.
I will help my countrymen before any faceless foreigner, as long as its fair and reasonable

Robert Taylor
17th January 2011, 20:19
Good call, robust discussion is one thing snarky name calling is something else.

+1

I also think that the tagline ''boycott NZ retailers'' is disgusting, its also therefore meaning ''boycott NZ employers'' who provide income for ordinary everyday kiwis. Quasi is not so wrong, there are many good people that read and contribute to KB, but also there are indeed morons....

Robert Taylor
17th January 2011, 20:21
one reason for our high costs is that some of our brands are sub agencies from across the Tasman.

The aussies clip the ticket and do bugger all for us

i'm not interested in supporting aussies economy and prefer to deal with local agancies if i can

My socialist friend I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying and that is the one biggest anomoly in my mainly tory beliefs.
The reality is there are plenty of middlemen clipping the ticket for precious little effort.

Robert Taylor
17th January 2011, 20:25
Whats the difference between CKT importing Ohlins and me importing Ohlins?
Thats right NOTHING.
The actual importing and remitting of funds overseas, it doesnt matter who does it, the private importer or the "authorised agent" money still goes overseas.
The reason importers import goods isnt to create kiwi jobs, it is to turn a profit.
A private import ? rather than profit, a better price. generally speaking.

Now if Ohlins had a factory in NZ producing shocks for the local market and for export, employing a few kiwis, paying taxes etc well then I would have some sympathy for their situation because private imports of Ohlins will affect kiwi jobs etc etc etc.

Note I am NOT talking about the services CKT provides (hard to import those) only the importing of goods.

My point is this
A lot of the retailers/importers bleating by about private imports conveniently leave out a critical bit of info, they are also sending money offshore to pay for all these goods
The only employment directly related to someone importing gear is related to storing it and selling it. ie if you have truckloads of gear you probably need a storeman and maybe some sort of sales guy
Another misleading bleat, business importer has to pay gst, forgets to mention that gst is refunded.
The ONLY extra the business importer may have to pay is $50-$100 brokerage/fees per shipment.
Another bit of info, business imports have the same fee & gst free limits as private importers, ie less than $1000 maybe free, less than $400 no fees no gst

So if you wish to buy something overseas, go for it, you are not causing the downfall of the NZ way of life.

We had to shed one staff member last year because of the effect of private imports, not wholly down to that but it was a substanial factor.

Clearly you know a lot about this so why dont you try it?

MarkH
17th January 2011, 21:08
I also think that the tagline ''boycott NZ retailers'' is disgusting

I don't know about disgusting - but I completely disagree with the idea! I'm all for people being free to buy from wherever they like and obviously there are plenty of rip-off merchants that don't deserve our patronage, but there are plenty of good retailers that offer goods at a fair price and stand behind their products - no one should be boycotting them!

onearmedbandit
17th January 2011, 21:20
I also think that the tagline ''boycott NZ retailers'' is disgusting, its also therefore meaning ''boycott NZ employers'' who provide income for ordinary everyday kiwis. Quasi is not so wrong, there are many good people that read and contribute to KB, but also there are indeed morons....

I'm happy to remove the tags that slandered your business. Anything else is fair game pretty much.

Quasievil
17th January 2011, 21:44
From one person's opinion you formed that conclusion? I guess that helps prove your point though doesn't it?

Nah formed it about 8 years ago:bleh:

Bassmatt
18th January 2011, 06:39
Proof again that KB is full of morons

And hypocrites.

MSTRS
18th January 2011, 07:33
...
Proudly, my business offers backup, we are not ''perfect'' most of the time but we are tenacious in helping people. ...
In which case, you are among the exceptional businesses out there. :niceone:
I'm sure no-one has a problem with anyone making a living from imported parts etc, but when it comes to after-sale support etc there are too many 'horror' stories. Sure, some will be just stories, but truth lurks amongst them.
Right or wrong, the perception is that backup is no different if a part is bought here or privately imported. So, for those who are on tight budgets, saving big dollars by going offshore is the best option for them. The other side of that coin is, of course, if that buyer has faith and respect for the retailer of the part they need, then they will stump up the extra to purchase locally. This is where the shop's policies and staff attitude comes in...because they can't compete on price. Value, though...


I'm all for people being free to buy from wherever they like and obviously there are plenty of rip-off merchants that don't deserve our patronage, but there are plenty of good retailers that offer goods at a fair price and stand behind their products - no one should be boycotting them!

Exactly.

firefighter
18th January 2011, 07:43
lots of you fuckers go off shore to buy your gear so those that do FUCK YOU i hope the yanks and the euros are enjoying your money in their large T/O markets

If I had'nt bought my helmet from overseas I would'nt have been able to afford one of your nice jackets, and the gloves. (3 pairs off ya btw).

So, if you like I can return the helmet, go back to my shitty crappy protective gear and return the jacket and gloves, and pay double for the helmet.

Think about it.

I cannot afford to buy decent protective gear from N.Z alone. Lucky for me I like your gear and can afford it. I won't pay the same price however for cheap boots I don't trust instead of the same price for quality gear that will do a better job of saving me (for example).

It's not fair that the shop owners on here think I should be less protected so you can turn a profit. I do understand your frustration, however you have to remember, when comes to buying gear to protect my body I will get the best i can afford, always.

I do try and buy local first, however I will never pay a cent more for less quality, which is more than fair.

Quasievil
18th January 2011, 07:47
And hypocrites.


ooooooo a predictable little snipe from the KB plonk brigade, got the urge to say something intelligent as well?

onearmedbandit
18th January 2011, 07:48
Hear hear. If I hadn't bought my recent purchases overseas I would not have been in the position to get my suspension sorted by the local Ohlins/Race Tech agency. That was $500 that wouldn't have been spent at his store, with the majority if not all of that amount staying in NZ.

So FUCK YOU too Quasie! :bleh::bleh::bleh:

Pussy
18th January 2011, 07:55
Scenario:
You're in the market for a new tv.
Two shops have got the identical tv.
One shop is charging $500.00 more than the other one.
Which one do you buy??

Bassmatt
18th January 2011, 07:55
ooooooo a predictable little snipe from the KB plonk brigade, got the urge to say something intelligent as well?

Good to see you're not denying it.

Owl
18th January 2011, 11:23
Scenario:
You're in the market for a new tv.
Two shops have got the identical tv.
One shop is charging $500.00 more than the other one.
Which one do you buy??

In my case, I went back to the first shop and told them their TV was too expensive. They came back with another price, beating the other shop by $50, simply because I bothered to go back.:D

Quasievil
18th January 2011, 11:55
In my case, I went back to the first shop and told them their TV was too expensive. They came back with another price, beating the other shop by $50, simply because I bothered to go back.:D

Which is good, and I would do the same, this however impacts on the margins and therefore when the worker wants a pay rise he aint going to get one, Margin is what we all live on, all of us no margin = no money, no money to pay wages or grow business.
Prices driving down down down, will result in lower wages
Importing privately and by passing the importer will also do the same, lower wages to the point where we are importing the lower wages from the outside world.
Meantime we all want more and more out of a pot that is shrinking, so whats the answer ??

I think import licencing is a possibility, privately and for business, no licence no importing just like the old days !!

I dont have any other ideas, but I am sure one day something will change either by regulation or by our standard of living that we enjoy.

Its a vicious cycle the way I see it with a poor ending

HenryDorsetCase
18th January 2011, 11:56
In my case, I went back to the first shop and told them their TV was too expensive. They came back with another price, beating the other shop by $50, simply because I bothered to go back.:D

same

hope you got the "extended warranty"





kidding

imdying
18th January 2011, 12:01
Margin comes from revenue, no revenue = no margin = no money to pay wages.

Instead of being greedy wankers, they could have had a slice of that revenue and thus margin.

Blue Wing Honda sent that money off shore, nobody else.

ukusa
18th January 2011, 12:20
In my case, I went back to the first shop and told them their TV was too expensive. They came back with another price, beating the other shop by $50, simply because I bothered to go back.:D

just shows that the first shop were greedy cunts, and had no problem charging far too much to the people too busy (or stupid) to shop around.
No wonder some places can offer 50% off sales & still make a profit.

PeeJay
18th January 2011, 13:54
Proof again that KB is full of morons
If your gear was made from NZ cowhide, put together in a NZ factory, staffed by NZ workers, maybe you could talk, but it isnt, you support a low wage economy overseas, send money overseas to pay for this kit, clip the ticket when it gets here.
No problem with that, thats your business.
But just because you run a business importing gear doesnt mean you should get preferential treatment compared to an individual who decides to import something for themselves.

PeeJay
18th January 2011, 14:34
>>we have sorted a LOT of suspension units out that were privately imported on the false belief that a huge saving was to be made.<<

And whats the problem with that?
You did charge for your services didnt you?


Seems to me from the tenor of your posts you would like to tip the playing field in your direction because you dont like the idea of individuals making purchase decisions that dont favour you.
Kiwi jobs etc have nothing to do with it

If you had bothered to READ my post you would see I wasnt referring to the services you provide, only the importing and remitting of money overseas.

Please enlighten everyone by explaining what the difference is between you sending money to Sweden an me sending money to the States.


Also if you had bothered to read the post you would see that I would have sympathy for your position if you supported a NZ factory staffed by NZ workers, manufacturing a NZ suspension system.
Or should everyone just send their money to Sweden via you so you can clip the ticket?
I am sure Ohlins could care less whether the money came via you or via the USA, as long as they get paid.

Voltaire
18th January 2011, 14:45
Which is good, and I would do the same, this however impacts on the margins and therefore when the worker wants a pay rise he aint going to get one, Margin is what we all live on, all of us no margin = no money, no money to pay wages or grow business.
Prices driving down down down, will result in lower wages
Importing privately and by passing the importer will also do the same, lower wages to the point where we are importing the lower wages from the outside world.
Meantime we all want more and more out of a pot that is shrinking, so whats the answer ??

I think import licencing is a possibility, privately and for business, no licence no importing just like the old days !!

I dont have any other ideas, but I am sure one day something will change either by regulation or by our standard of living that we enjoy.

Its a vicious cycle the way I see it with a poor ending

Yeah, I really liked paying triple the price at Morris Black and Mathisons for tools, unable to get decent tyres for my car as Reid rubber made them locally and you had to pay thru the nose for Michelins, Lincoln Turner screwdrivers...the list is endless. .......useless orange black and decker power tools.....having to drink that shit Lion Red and DB Export....that add on TV makes me laugh. what a load of bollocks.....boring limited selection of food....and so on... :msn-wink:
The old days...you can have them.

Edbear
18th January 2011, 15:36
Scenario:
You're in the market for a new tv.
Two shops have got the identical tv.
One shop is charging $500.00 more than the other one.
Which one do you buy??


In my case, I went back to the first shop and told them their TV was too expensive. They came back with another price, beating the other shop by $50, simply because I bothered to go back.:D

Interesting points. We have shops we prefer to buy from due to their good service and have found that they'll always try to match or better another shop's pricing if we point it out to them as loyal customers.

Personally, I try to be as reasonable as I can with the ballance between earning a living and "meeting the market" and I'm constantly amused at the prices some charge. I did a quote for fire extinguishers where the customer was quoted $207.00 per extinguisher, (4.5kg Dry Powder), and I sold them to him for $109.00. The quote was $32.20 or the signs, my retail on them is $8.63. (Including GST). My video camera dive masks for deep scuba are $368.00 including the accessory side lights where other suppliers are charging $550.00 for them! I hope to make a living from my business, too, but surely there are retailer's out there who are a wee bit greedy..?

Quasievil
18th January 2011, 16:17
But just because you run a business importing gear doesnt mean you should get preferential treatment compared to an individual who decides to import something for themselves.

Yes it does

Pussy
18th January 2011, 16:21
When I buy stuff from overseas... it's for me.
I'm not buying it to re-supply someone else.
Selfishly, I like to decide for myself how I will spend MY money on MYself.

Brian d marge
18th January 2011, 16:22
....having to drink that shit Lion Red and DB Export.....


Hes got a point there

Stephen

spacemonkey
18th January 2011, 17:38
Yes it does

No it doesn't, not even remotely.

rwh
18th January 2011, 17:39
But just because you run a business importing gear doesnt mean you should get preferential treatment compared to an individual who decides to import something for themselves.
Yes it does

So you're firmly on the protectionist Left then?

Richard

Robert Taylor
18th January 2011, 17:42
>>we have sorted a LOT of suspension units out that were privately imported on the false belief that a huge saving was to be made.<<

And whats the problem with that?
You did charge for your services didnt you?


Seems to me from the tenor of your posts you would like to tip the playing field in your direction because you dont like the idea of individuals making purchase decisions that dont favour you.
Kiwi jobs etc have nothing to do with it

If you had bothered to READ my post you would see I wasnt referring to the services you provide, only the importing and remitting of money overseas.

Please enlighten everyone by explaining what the difference is between you sending money to Sweden an me sending money to the States.


Also if you had bothered to read the post you would see that I would have sympathy for your position if you supported a NZ factory staffed by NZ workers, manufacturing a NZ suspension system.
Or should everyone just send their money to Sweden via you so you can clip the ticket?
I am sure Ohlins could care less whether the money came via you or via the USA, as long as they get paid.

Sometimes I think people post on here for the sake of being argumentative.

I read your post and understood it. And Im not just clipping the ticket, Im adding a LOT of value. If you dont believe me come to our building and observe for a few days. If you have a huge investment in backup infrastructure why wouldnt you be concerned that you are losing a few sales to overseas companies, especially when our prices are similiar. I wasnt overstating the case when I said we see more than a few suspension units that were purchased overseas and we end up sorting them out to suit our conditions. So it ends up actually costing the customers MORE, so how stupid is that???????
I must be old fashioned in actually caring about the long term viability of NZ business and employment prospects.
Yes I dont blame people for being price concious given that we are in the midst of a recession and NZ workers are poorly paid. As Quasi has not unfairly intimated, what are some of the reasons NZ workers are poorly paid? Im not saying I agree with Quasi being so ''abrupt'' but I can understand why. But its a fair question.
This is actually a worldwide problem, not just restricted to NZ. Idle Lefty may care to elaborate as some but not all of what he says makes sense.
And btw we fabricate a LOT of suspension pieces that employ kiwis and outside sub contractors.

Quasievil
18th January 2011, 17:43
No it doesn't, not even remotely.

Really, I can claim GST back you cant

spacemonkey
18th January 2011, 17:46
So you're firmly on the protectionist Left then?

Richard

No he's firmly in the camp of "Me first, fuck everyone else."

Quasi is moaning about folks importing products cheaper than he wants to sell at, inspite of the fact that this is exactly what he does to anyone that wants to actually make gear in NZ instead of made in a Pakistani sweatshop and flogged over the internet...... Short version, hypocrite.

Quasievil
18th January 2011, 18:01
No he's firmly in the camp of "Me first, fuck everyone else."

Quasi is moaning about folks importing products cheaper than he wants to sell at, inspite of the fact that this is exactly what he does to anyone that wants to actually make gear in NZ instead of made in a Pakistani sweatshop and flogged over the internet...... Short version, hypocrite.

Wow thats a lot of attitude and assumptions
not sure why you want to go get all personal about it by insulting me.

Most of what you actually said is rubbish however, I would like to see you import a Jacket to the same Spec for significantly less money to make it worth while, Qmoto Pricing is sharp as a tack given the spec and the service we provide.

95% of gear is now made in Pakistan, I didnt realise you had been there if you did you would know that you dont have to be in a shop to sweat lol
Also the workers get paid well for their economy, not by NZ standards of course, but the cost of living is alot less.

Anyway, I was referring to the bigger picture outside just Bike gear which is sweet fuck all of an industry in the scale of things.
And my argument suggesting business deserves some protection from private imports is getting the endorsement from the government as I understand it they are looking at ways to collect GST on all goods purchased over the internet, and good job I say.:msn-wink:

rwh
18th January 2011, 18:02
Really, I can claim GST back you cant

I'm not sure what your point is - are you claiming you do get preferential treatment?

It doesn't make a difference to the price, though, because you stick it back on when you sell it (with a bit added for your margin).

Richard

rwh
18th January 2011, 18:09
And my argument suggesting business deserves some protection from private imports is getting the endorsement from the government as I understand it they are looking at ways to collect GST on all goods purchased over the internet, and good job I say.:msn-wink:

That's not really protection; it's just removing a loophole that currently disadvantages you.

I would probably buy gear from you, because you're local(ish) - but that's because there are advantages to me in you being local, like being subject to the same legal jurisdiction (CGA etc), and being able to visit if need be to sort stuff out. It wouldn't really be out of any hand-wavy loyalty to fellow NZers (well, maybe a bit), and it certainly wouldn't be out of respect for your KB ranting - just about everything you say would sway me in the opposite direction :)

However, of course, I discovered that I could get my leathers made locally, custom made to fit, by the same guy that was selling them. That put the value way up for me, even though the price was probably quite a bit more than your stuff.

Richard

Edbear
18th January 2011, 18:22
...
95% of gear is now made in Pakistan, I didnt realise you had been there if you did you would know that you dont have to be in a shop to sweat lol
Also the workers get paid well for their economy, not by NZ standards of course, but the cost of living is alot less....:


...I read your post and understood it. And Im not just clipping the ticket, Im adding a LOT of value. If you dont believe me come to our building and observe for a few days. If you have a huge investment in backup infrastructure why wouldnt you be concerned that you are losing a few sales to overseas companies, especially when our prices are similiar. I wasnt overstating the case when I said we see more than a few suspension units that were purchased overseas and we end up sorting them out to suit our conditions. So it ends up actually costing the customers MORE, so how stupid is that???????
I must be old fashioned in actually caring about the long term viability of NZ business and employment prospects.
Yes I dont blame people for being price concious given that we are in the midst of a recession and NZ workers are poorly paid. As Quasi has not unfairly intimated, what are some of the reasons NZ workers are poorly paid? Im not saying I agree with Quasi being so ''abrupt'' but I can understand why. But its a fair question.
This is actually a worldwide problem, not just restricted to NZ. Idle Lefty may care to elaborate as some but not all of what he says makes sense.
And btw we fabricate a LOT of suspension pieces that employ kiwis and outside sub contractors.

Maybe some are missing the fact that pretty much everything we buy is made overseas and imported by both local distributors and local manufacturers. Otherwise we'd have nothing to drive/ride/ wear/ watch/listen to/build with etc.

Few local manufacturers use exclusively local "bits and pieces" made here and what they make is to a larger or lesser degree, compounded of overseas componentry and/or materials. We live in a global era and cannot afford to be insular. We can make "stuff" here using local content where possible, but everyone has to weigh the balance of cost against market acceptability, and if we could manufacture and sell goods at competitive prices acceptable to the end consumer completely within NZ, we would!

steve_t
18th January 2011, 18:33
Sometimes I think people post on here for the sake of being argumentative.


Sometimes?:nya::whistle:

Basically, anyone who owns/runs a business has a totally different perspective to someone who has only ever been an employee.

Brian d marge
18th January 2011, 18:39
Not sure if this has been said

but Mr Taylor is the link between me and ohlins , ( and comes free with knowledge)

Quasi , is the also the same ( just to use these businesses as an example )

they are my sales point,

common thread there , is service.

Now if I am sourcing commodities , overseas is always going to win as the overheads relative to our are probably less

So we can produce something that no one else can or does , or add value to the product , ( back up service , knowledge , and a christmas card )

I can either invest time in getting that knowledge in order to make an informed decision , or pay someone to locate , or service the product I have or intend to buy

I'm good, with the above ...

But some business have poor judgment on margins ,or service , they don't get any repeat custom from moi ( of course if it a cock up and all good in the end , probably get lots more repeat custom)

Stephen

Quasievil
18th January 2011, 18:41
I'm not sure what your point is

Richard

Neither do I Im just being difficult for the sake of it:bleh:

At the end of the day, here in this thread are two camps

1/ Private people looking for the best deal they can get.....and good on them

2/ Business owners looking for every scrap of business they can get in this fucked market......and good on them

These two groups are clashing at the predictable cross roads of either the consumer buying locally or the consumer buying offshore.
There are strong arguments on both sides of the camp, and both sides have reasonable grounds to have the passion showed here in this thread.

at the end of the day, like I have said before we all try and do our best for our situations, and as long as we have this sort of freedom we will have these issues.

the results will not be favorable to the big picture tho, those of us in business are loosing margin "big time" and one day (not far away) it wont be worth it, we will do something else. then what will we have in NZ? cheap prices from imported goods and no money to buy them as we wont have any employers left.
Yes Business need protection (in my big picture view)

Coldrider
18th January 2011, 18:48
Sometimes I think people post on here for the sake of being argumentative.You are the one that's trolling, I don't believe for a minute that you do not understand basic economic theory with respect to perfectly competitive markets.

steve_t
18th January 2011, 18:51
Now if I am sourcing commodities , overseas is always going to win as the overheads relative to our are probably less

So we can produce something that no one else can or does , or add value to the product , ( back up service , knowledge , and a christmas card )

I can either invest time in getting that knowledge in order to make an informed decision , or pay someone to locate , or service the product I have or intend to buy

I'm good, with the above ...

But some business have poor judgment on margins ,or service , they don't get any repeat custom from moi ( of course if it a cock up and all good in the end , probably get lots more repeat custom)

Stephen

So is a bike shop, carrying stock of different sizes for people to try on, adding value to the product? Or is a person going to a bike shop to try on sizes before buying from eBay etc 'investing time to get the knowledge' of what size fits them best?

Quasievil
18th January 2011, 18:53
You are the one that's trolling, I don't believe for a minute that you do not understand basic economic theory with respect to perfectly competitive markets.

Are you referring to RT's small new Zealand market with the pressure from here on him to compete in the Global market that is being adopted so readily from those on here.
Ok Im stirring.

I love it at the track when I see people I KNOW brought of shore busting there ARSE to get RT to sort out there bike for them.

Yes Im still shit stirring.:msn-wink:

Coldrider
18th January 2011, 19:00
Yes Im still shit stirring.:msn-wink:I know, alot of commercial models that secondary school students use for practical assignments are virtual warehouse models, yet real intertnet uptake is still very slow.

Robert Taylor
18th January 2011, 19:00
Sometimes?:nya::whistle:

Basically, anyone who owns/runs a business has a totally different perspective to someone who has only ever been an employee.

Let me opportunistically chime in here! I was an employee of several companies here in NZ and in the UK for the first 20 years or so of my working life. For the following 18 odd years I have been an employer but have NEVER forgotten what it was like to be an employee. Dennis Shaw is my right hand man ( an employee ) and is VERY important to my business. He is paid accordingly ( from my massive profits, NOT ) and has very liberal conditions. I look after him and because of that I get good work and output. He was many years ago my boss at then Yamaha distibutor Moller Yamaha and was decent then as he is now. A good relationship between employers and employees is possible and beneficial.

What really riles me is the ''us and them '' attitudes perpetuated by both bad employees and employers.

Brian d marge
18th January 2011, 19:07
So is a bike shop, carrying stock of different sizes for people to try on, adding value to the product? Or is a person going to a bike shop to try on sizes before buying from eBay etc 'investing time to get the knowledge' of what size fits them best?

both I would have thought ( in this case) As gaining that knowledge may be a good use of resources ( time) for the customer and the shop is building a customer relationship/base.

but for the customer as the quest for the Holy grail drags on there will be a point at which it would be better to pay ( such as in Mechanical work ...)

It would be the bike shops call to say at which point it becomes unprofitable and to direct the customer to another sales point

Depends on what sort of relationship you want with that customer ,,, in NZ I would assume long term ( but that may not be true all the time , as you may not want the scrote back again )


Me personally would try and help the customer the best I could, if they want to order it themselves , they can , I can assist. and I am pretty sure , that most of em will come back for other stuff ( prices being not to far out of course )

Must dash , I ll try and tidy this up later ...

Stephen

Robert Taylor
18th January 2011, 19:16
Are you referring to RT's small new Zealand market with the pressure from here on him to compete in the Global market that is being adopted so readily from those on here.
Ok Im stirring.

I love it at the track when I see people I KNOW brought of shore busting there ARSE to get RT to sort out there bike for them.

Yes Im still shit stirring.:msn-wink:

Prorities Quasi, those that bought off me get first priority, as is fair and reasonable. I will though help ANYONE that asks and as time allows. The great difficulty with my trade is that you may have to sort out maybe 10-20 riders within a very very compressed timeframe, its more than nuts! And if you dont get say 2 of those right instantly there are vultures circling. Who of course have a perfect record of excellence, or would have you believe that.

The reality also is ( with a product that requires optimisation for circuit conditions ) if you bought it direct from the States they dont have any technicians on hand to back up their product, in the markets they are so happy to sell into. Also as has been apparent the odd parallell importer has also lacked tuning options ( enough springs etc ) to back up their ticket clipping.

The reality is we are competitive on price with the overseas resellers and will do reasonable deals, but we have a major point of difference in that we back it up to the hilt.

steve_t
18th January 2011, 19:17
Let me opportunistically chime in here! I was an employee of several companies here in NZ and in the UK for the first 20 years or so of my working life. For the following 18 odd years I have been an employer but have NEVER forgotten what it was like to be an employee. Dennis Shaw is my right hand man ( an employee ) and is VERY important to my business. He is paid accordingly ( from my massive profits, NOT ) and has very liberal conditions. I look after him and because of that I get good work and output. He was many years ago my boss at then Yamaha distibutor Moller Yamaha and was decent then as he is now. A good relationship between employers and employees is possible and beneficial.

What really riles me is the ''us and them '' attitudes perpetuated by both bad employees and employers.

Agree, but I don't actually know any employers who have never been employees. I'm sure the vast majority of employers can empathise with employees wanting a higher pay rate, more public holidays, etc. but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of employees have no idea about the costs of running a business with overheads being generally skipped over. Power, phone, insurance premiums, ACC levies etc etc etc are hugely expensive let alone wages and all the taxes. I'm not trying to sound separatist but I do think that someone who has owned or run a business has a more informed view of why things cost what they do. I think any employer who doesn't appreciate the value their employees is asking to go out of business.

Obviously, if every employer in the country was driving a Ferrari or Lambo, while they paid their employees $12.75/h it'd be a different story :niceone:

Robert Taylor
18th January 2011, 19:21
Agree, but I don't actually know any employers who have never been employees. I'm sure the vast majority of employers can empathise with employees wanting a higher pay rate, more public holidays, etc. but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of employees have no idea about the costs of running a business with overheads being generally skipped over. Power, phone, insurance premiums, ACC levies etc etc etc are hugely expensive let alone wages and all the taxes. I'm not trying to sound separatist but I do think that someone who has owned or run a business has a more informed view of why things cost what they do. I think any employer who doesn't appreciate the value their employees is asking to go out of business.

Obviously, if every employer in the country was driving a Ferrari or Lambo, while they paid their employees $12.75/h it'd be a different story :niceone:

There is absolutely nothing that you have said that I can disagree with.

Edbear
18th January 2011, 19:29
There is absolutely nothing that you have said that I can disagree with.

+1 on that! Employees need to be told how crucial they are to the success of the business, therefore their own careers. An employee can make or break a business. My son-in-law finally got rid of an employee who cost the business $10k in one month in vehicle expenses including crashing a van on the way back from picking it up from the panelbeaters where it had just been fixed from his previous prang! :weird: He couldn't understand why the boss was so upset...

How often do we hear of business owners working for less income than their staff?

Katman
18th January 2011, 19:32
How often do we hear of business owners working for less income than their staff?

Since I've been working for myself I've been amused by the number of people who seem to think that anyone who has their own business must have it sweet.

They wouldn't know the half of it.

Coldrider
18th January 2011, 19:40
How often do we hear of business owners working for less income than their staff?perfect competative market, too many players, pricetakers, the intelligent ones will exit that market and join one that has a distortion, the others will continue shooting out till they lose.
There is no point ruining a good business by hitting an obsticle you can actually see.

Edbear
18th January 2011, 19:44
Since I've been working for myself I've been amused by the number of people who seem to think that anyone who has their own business must have it sweet.

They wouldn't know the half of it.

Yup! I like the challenge of building something with my own "hands". I have had tough times and good times, more tough than good so far but this one is looking very good as I can apply everything I've learned and work with big companies I have developed relationships with.

We don't have the security of a regular wage and I have invested more money than I'd care to tell and am working very hard to get that back so I can take advantage of new opportunities opening up. But thanks to a supportive wife who is earning a good salary we are surviving until my business grows enough to support us.

I'd work about half the hours I do now, or even less, were I an employee and I could budget. But there's something about running your own business that makes us entrepreneurs...

Edbear
18th January 2011, 20:02
perfect competative market, too many players, pricetakers, the intelligent ones will exit that market and join one that has a distortion, the others will continue shooting out till they lose.
There is no point ruining a good business by hitting an obsticle you can actually see.

Having an edge is the key. I've seen people start up in very competitive market and fail after putting everything they've got into it. If you're in a competitive market, and I've been there, you need to have something specific to you that makes the customer come to your business rather than the competition. That "something" has to be not just price, in fact the price of the goods is about third on the list of what the customer is looking for.

Better though is to look for a market where there is a definite need and see how you can fill that need. I have built up a long list of business aquaintances and find networking to be crucial to growth. Also, be honest and reliable, back up what you say and sell, and don't rip anyone off!

One of the biggest contributors to failure is that people spend in advance, counting on business growth or potential growth to fund their spending. It's called "counting your chickens before they hatch" and you'd be amazed how many do this and then get behind in their bills! DON"T buy/lease that vehicle if you're not already making enough to fund it or have enough guaranteed work/income that it is an asset rather than a liability.

Another problem is that people don't want to "make a profit in order to minimise the tax". But don't see the need to have a back-up fund to even out the ups and downs. I'd rather pay a bit more GST and tax and have the security of a healthy bank balance, that way I can take advantage of opportunities arising, or cover a lean month' expenses.

Ocean1
18th January 2011, 20:21
One of the biggest contributors to failure is that people spend in advance, counting on business growth or potential growth to fund their spending.

That's deserving of bankruptcy.

What's less so is failure to foresee, understand and survive the huge tax wave you generate in the first 12 - 18 months.

This country is seriously and perversely unfriendly to start-up businesses.

R-Soul
18th January 2011, 20:22
Which is good, and I would do the same, this however impacts on the margins and therefore when the worker wants a pay rise he aint going to get one, Margin is what we all live on, all of us no margin = no money, no money to pay wages or grow business.
Prices driving down down down, will result in lower wages
Importing privately and by passing the importer will also do the same, lower wages to the point where we are importing the lower wages from the outside world.
Meantime we all want more and more out of a pot that is shrinking, so whats the answer ??

I think import licencing is a possibility, privately and for business, no licence no importing just like the old days !!

I dont have any other ideas, but I am sure one day something will change either by regulation or by our standard of living that we enjoy.

Its a vicious cycle the way I see it with a poor ending

No. If a business is not viable, there is no reason for the government to protect it so that consumers can bear the brunt of foolhardy entrepreneurs. The quicker we realise that the large money is to be made in the application of our intellect (to create intellectual property), and not in clipping the ticket, or the drudge work of manufacturing, the better.

We are a"first world nation" with first world education, and training. We should be the ones doing the designing and inventing, and then getting it made off shore (while protecting your target markets with patents to keep a handle on your technology) - dont swim against the current, all surfers know that. Work to your own strengths, and use the strengths of other countries to your advantage. This is commonly termed the "knowledge economy".

rwh
18th January 2011, 21:00
No. If a business is not viable, there is no reason for the government to protect it so that consumers can bear the brunt of foolhardy entrepreneurs.
Agreed.

The quicker we realise that the large money is to be made in the application of our intellect (to create intellectual property), and not in clipping the ticket, or the drudge work of manufacturing, the better.

We are a"first world nation" with first world education, and training. We should be the ones doing the designing and inventing, and then getting it made off shore (while protecting your target markets with patents to keep a handle on your technology) - dont swim against the current, all surfers know that. Work to your own strengths, and use the strengths of other countries to your advantage. This is commonly termed the "knowledge economy".

While I can see that that can make money (look at Microsoft), I don't like it.

The trouble with treating knowledge as property, and artificially restricting its dissemination, is that overall we end up doing more work than is necessary. If only all the producers of knowledge shared it, as is common in science, we'd all be better off - and the transfer happens both ways, so all the producers can benefit from the work of others. Sure there are some who are mostly consumers, but it doesn't actually cost the producer any more if more people consume, so who cares?

Patents are particularly evil, because they leave the second inventor with nothing, despite the fact that they've done just as much work to get there.

[edit: Our so called 'intellectual property' laws are of course just another form of government protection, which I don't see as being any more necessary than any other. The free-marketeers should be campaigning against them.]

Richard
(thinking mostly about software, because that's the industry I'm in)

Robert Taylor
18th January 2011, 21:12
Agreed.


While I can see that that can make money (look at Microsoft), I don't like it.

The trouble with treating knowledge as property, and artificially restricting its dissemination, is that overall we end up doing more work than is necessary. If only all the producers of knowledge shared it, as is common in science, we'd all be better off - and the transfer happens both ways, so all the producers can benefit from the work of others. Sure there are some who are mostly consumers, but it doesn't actually cost the producer any more if more people consume, so who cares?

Patents are particularly evil, because they leave the second inventor with nothing, despite the fact that they've done just as much work to get there.

[edit: Our so called 'intellectual property' laws are of course just another form of government protection, which I don't see as being any more necessary than any other. The free-marketeers should be campaigning against them.]

Richard
(thinking mostly about software, because that's the industry I'm in)

Lets turn that around a little, you do a painstaking amount of work to develop something and then rightfully you expect a return from your efforts. Someone steals your idea, has expended little or no effort and collects off it. THAT IS WRONG.
Patents are not perfect but fundamentally their principle is sound, if only to protect hard work. I am fundamentally against those who ''use'' people, the world is full of them.

onearmedbandit
18th January 2011, 21:28
And this all started from a little Honda cowl.

rwh
18th January 2011, 21:38
Lets turn that around a little, you do a painstaking amount of work to develop something and then rightfully you expect a return from your efforts. Someone steals your idea, has expended little or no effort and collects off it. THAT IS WRONG.

It's wrong by the standards we're used to now, but that's not inherently true IMHO.

Here's another way of looking at it: You put in a whole lot of work to develop something you personally have no/limited use for, expecting other people to pay for it. Is that not wrong?

The problem is in the expectation - you currently expect to have the monopoly on your idea (sorry, design - ideas aren't patentable), so you do the work based on that assumption. If you didn't have that assumption, you'd a) not do the work b) do the work because you need the result or c) do the work because someone else needs it, and they're paying you for it (for the work, not the idea/design).

If I put in some work on something I need, then if I find someone else needs it too, that's no skin off my nose. Hey, if I tell them about it and they use it, they might feel inclined to help work on it too - we both win.

Note that many people, for example, are writing software they (or their clients/employers) need and sharing the results. Everybody wins.

The whole concept of 'stealing your idea' is broken - stealing involves leaving the victim without something they had. If you learn something I know, I've lost nothing, so nothing was stolen.

I agree it's a bit of a mindset shift, but I think it's a useful one.



Patents are not perfect but fundamentally their principle is sound, if only to protect hard work. I am fundamentally against those who ''use'' people, the world is full of them.

I believe patents were introduced as a means for the government (well, royalty, at the time) to make a bit of extra money. It's a government granted monopoly, and an attack on competition. I may be muddling that with copyright, though.

Richard

rwh
18th January 2011, 21:44
By the way, I read quite a lot of the bucket threads, despite not racing myself. I love the way all the competitors happily share their knowledge from fork setup to expansion chambers - through cooperation, everybody learns more.

And Robert, I note that you share plenty of info yourself - you know how valuable it is.

Richard

Max Preload
19th January 2011, 00:18
Which is good, and I would do the sameI wouldn't. It tells me that the more expensive retailer is either trying it on or is ignorant of the commercial realities of operating in that market. Either way he doesn't deserve my money.


this however impacts on the margins and therefore when the worker wants a pay rise he aint going to get one
He doesn't need one. TVs are cheap enough now with the other retailer on the scene.


Margin is what we all live on, all of us no margin = no money, no money to pay wages or grow business.
Prices driving down down down, will result in lower wages
Meanwhile, not maintaining a check on them devalues your savings with inflation.


Importing privately and by passing the importer will also do the same, lower wages to the point where we are importing the lower wages from the outside world.
Meantime we all want more and more out of a pot that is shrinking, so whats the answer ??Every industry suffers this. They have to have a point of difference. Bike retailers here have got complacent. Their service is shit, their prices are shit, their attitude is shit. That's not the consumer's fault. It's their own. Fuck 'em.


I think import licencing is a possibility, privately and for business, no licence no importing just like the old days !!
Fuck that. Cunts getting rich just because they hold an exclusive right to do something. It sounds just like party members in the USSR or China.


I dont have any other ideas, but I am sure one day something will change either by regulation or by our standard of living that we enjoy.

Its a vicious cycle the way I see it with a poor ending
I see it as possibly pushing the retailers to source their wares a bit more directly cutting out a few ticket clippers rather than being lazy. Just like the public are doing for themselves.

Robert Taylor
19th January 2011, 06:30
By the way, I read quite a lot of the bucket threads, despite not racing myself. I love the way all the competitors happily share their knowledge from fork setup to expansion chambers - through cooperation, everybody learns more.

And Robert, I note that you share plenty of info yourself - you know how valuable it is.

Richard

I dont share all of it though as I know some of my competitors read these threads. And Im not giving them knowledge that Ive painstakingly worked out on the more sensitive stuff. So thats my balance that Ive struck.

Robert Taylor
19th January 2011, 06:33
I wouldn't. It tells me that the more expensive retailer is either trying it on or is ignorant of the commercial realities of operating in that market. Either way he doesn't deserve my money.


He doesn't need one. TVs are cheap enough now with the other retailer on the scene.


Meanwhile, not maintaining a check on them devalues your savings with inflation.

Every industry suffers this. They have to have a point of difference. Bike retailers here have got complacent. Their service is shit, their prices are shit, their attitude is shit. That's not the consumer's fault. It's their own. Fuck 'em.


Fuck that. Cunts getting rich just because they hold an exclusive right to do something. It sounds just like party members in the USSR or China.


I see it as possibly pushing the retailers to source their wares a bit more directly cutting out a few ticket clippers rather than being lazy. Just like the public are doing for themselves.

Suffice to say you have generalised. Not all businesses are tarred with the same brush. Many of us may not like the open slather and dog eat dog mentality that now prevails but we have adapted to it.

Woodman
19th January 2011, 07:29
just shows that the first shop were greedy cunts, and had no problem charging far too much to the people too busy (or stupid) to shop around.
No wonder some places can offer 50% off sales & still make a profit.

Sometimes the expensive shop may not be aware that the other shop has got a better price. They may have only just put that price on. It doesn't mean they are wankers, just uninfomed at the moment. If you tell them then they know and will probarbly match or better the price. Don't take it personally.

imdying
19th January 2011, 08:25
The whole concept of 'stealing your idea' is broken - stealing involves leaving the victim without something they had.The exclusive use of their hard work coming up with the idea in the first place is what is being stolen. Without it, why would I bother doing something hard like that when I could just do something easy? For fun? Hahahahahahah

Edbear
19th January 2011, 09:15
And this all started from a little Honda cowl.

Ain't KB fun!? :niceone:

oneofsix
19th January 2011, 09:29
The exclusive use of their hard work coming up with the idea in the first place is what is being stolen. Without it, why would I bother doing something hard like that when I could just do something easy? For fun? Hahahahahahah

:niceone:Agreed, it is a well accepted concept that secrets can be stolen, there is even trade secret law to cover it because its not always wise to patient your trade secret.

rwh
19th January 2011, 09:52
The exclusive use of their hard work coming up with the idea in the first place is what is being stolen. Without it, why would I bother doing something hard like that when I could just do something easy? For fun? Hahahahahahah

a) because you need it for something else

b) because someone else needs it and is paying you

c) yes, possibly for fun

I work for a company that writes software. A significant chunk of it is free software that anyone can download and use - we write and improve it largely on contract to clients who need new features.

Richard

Quasievil
19th January 2011, 09:54
I have a question

Would New Zealand be a better place if we still had significant local manufacturing
as opposed to most stuff coming in from overseas for example our Auto industry, clothing Manufacturing industries, shoes manufacturing and there are a host of other manufacturing plants shut down as they cant compete with low priced imports.

And I am talking bigger picture not bloody leathers:msn-wink:

oneofsix
19th January 2011, 09:55
a) because you need it for something else

b) because someone else needs it and is paying you

c) yes, possibly for fun

I work for a company that writes software. A significant chunk of it is free software that anyone can download and use - we write and improve it largely on contract to clients who need new features.

Richard

so the free software is like the advertising hook? :devil2:

rwh
19th January 2011, 09:56
I dont share all of it though as I know some of my competitors read these threads. And Im not giving them knowledge that Ive painstakingly worked out on the more sensitive stuff. So thats my balance that Ive struck.

It's a pity, but understandable in the current circumstances.

Would you and your competitors not all be better off if you agreed to share all your knowledge? Admittedly, racing is competition, so different rules may naturally apply around that.

Richard

rwh
19th January 2011, 10:01
so the free software is like the advertising hook? :devil2:

No. Almost none, if any, of the software we write is owned by us and kept proprietary. It's mostly written for clients, some of whom are happy to make it free, and many others who prefer to keep it to themselves for whatever reason, as is their right under current law. In many cases, it's very specific software that nobody else would want anyway, so the issue doesn't arise.

Richard

rwh
19th January 2011, 10:07
I have a question

Would New Zealand be a better place if we still had significant local manufacturing
as opposed to most stuff coming in from overseas for example our Auto industry, clothing Manufacturing industries, shoes manufacturing and there are a host of other manufacturing plants shut down as they cant compete with low priced imports.

And I am talking bigger picture not bloody leathers:msn-wink:

Possibly. In industries where it makes sense.

Don't worry, I think it'll come back - the oil will run out, at which time the cost of importing (and exporting) will rise (and we won't have sufficient foreign exchange to buy it with anyway).

We already export superyachts; hopefully that expertise can be translated into sailing cargo ships :)

Richard

Edbear
19th January 2011, 10:23
I have a question

Would New Zealand be a better place if we still had significant local manufacturing
as opposed to most stuff coming in from overseas for example our Auto industry, clothing Manufacturing industries, shoes manufacturing and there are a host of other manufacturing plants shut down as they cant compete with low priced imports.

And I am talking bigger picture not bloody leathers:msn-wink:


Possibly. In industries where it makes sense.

Don't worry, I think it'll come back - the oil will run out, at which time the cost of importing (and exporting) will rise (and we won't have sufficient foreign exchange to buy it with anyway).

We already export superyachts; hopefully that expertise can be translated into sailing cargo ships :)

Richard

It is possible to do more maufacturing here, but it has to be able to fill a need that we are uniquely able to provide for. The Superyacht industry, and our expertise in boating generally coupled with competitive pricing has been a good example. However for general consumer goods, we need to be able to export and Fisher and Paykel are probably the best example of how tough that is!

The difference is between mass-production of consumer goods and in specialist industries. Being in business with hot water cylinders for example, I know all the local brands and manufacturers and they market a combination of local manufacture and imported cylinders and the local manufacture may also include parts made overseas, usually Australia, due to cost.

I was talking to a clothing manufacturer who went out of business. They were able to get their cost down to $1.50 for shorts such as you'll find anywhere, but the landed cost from China was 50c! There is no way an NZ company can compete with that! You'll pay $15+ at retail?

Smiff-ta
19th January 2011, 10:53
Sounds like some of you need to live in China

Smifffy
19th January 2011, 11:39
a) because you need it for something else

b) because someone else needs it and is paying you

c) yes, possibly for fun

I work for a company that writes software. A significant chunk of it is free software that anyone can download and use - we write and improve it largely on contract to clients who need new features.

Richard

How would the clients feel if after paying you to write and improve the software, you then made it available free for public download?

ukusa
19th January 2011, 11:50
I have a question

Would New Zealand be a better place if we still had significant local manufacturing
as opposed to most stuff coming in from overseas for example our Auto industry, clothing Manufacturing industries, shoes manufacturing and there are a host of other manufacturing plants shut down as they cant compete with low priced imports.

And I am talking bigger picture not bloody leathers:msn-wink:

It would be better for jobs, but costs will never let it happen again on the scale of the 70's & 80's. I started working at LWR Industries in Ch-Ch in the early 80's (clothing manufacturers). I think they had 3 or 4 thousand employees back then. Today, they have none.

Some stuff it would be nice to think it could still be made here, some clothing still is, but very little in the big scheme of things.
Motorcycle parts & accessories would be a different kettle of fish, I couldn't see it ever being viable due to major setup costs of plant & machinery to mass produce stuff like sidecovers, levers, seats, cowels, headlights etc etc for the local market. There would be very little export opportunity due to the higher costs of manufacture, we just couldn't compete.

Saying that, all my clothing (bike gear/helmets as well) is purchased locally, because I like to try before I buy. My bike parts are all purchased overseas to save mega $, with the exception of parts beyond my expertise which I would need the bike shop to fit (I would never buy a part overseas then take it into my local to get it fitted). This include tyres etc

MarkH
19th January 2011, 12:01
I have a question

Would New Zealand be a better place if we still had significant local manufacturing
as opposed to most stuff coming in from overseas for example our Auto industry, clothing Manufacturing industries, shoes manufacturing and there are a host of other manufacturing plants shut down as they cant compete with low priced imports.

And I am talking bigger picture not bloody leathers:msn-wink:

In most cases no, we would be better off working in jobs that are worth doing and importing the goods from overseas. If we can't make something competitively without lowering the pay to under $2 per hour then it just isn't going to (and shouldn't) happen. Every country in the developed world has some degree of specialisation and imports many goods, even large economies like the US of A.

There are exceptions of course and where we can be competitive then sure, why not. We do make higher priced clothing here, but there is no point in trying to make cheap clothing when it can be bought in from China at a 3rd the price. If I could afford it I'd wear Celtic Leather gear - maybe one day?

MarkH
19th January 2011, 12:04
How would the clients feel if after paying you to write and improve the software, you then made it available free for public download?

Surely if much of the programming is open source that they got for free they can hardly object to the new code they commissioned being made available to others. If they got 90% of the code for free then bitching about others getting their 10% of new code for free is rather greedy. If this is open source code and they understood the conditions when they agreed to pay for the work to be done then they can like it or lump it!

Robert Taylor
19th January 2011, 12:12
I have a question

Would New Zealand be a better place if we still had significant local manufacturing
as opposed to most stuff coming in from overseas for example our Auto industry, clothing Manufacturing industries, shoes manufacturing and there are a host of other manufacturing plants shut down as they cant compete with low priced imports.

And I am talking bigger picture not bloody leathers:msn-wink:

Without getting into a ''war'' the biggest beneficiaries of that would be gainful employment for employees.

Robert Taylor
19th January 2011, 12:15
It's a pity, but understandable in the current circumstances.

Would you and your competitors not all be better off if you agreed to share all your knowledge? Admittedly, racing is competition, so different rules may naturally apply around that.

Richard

I gave a couple of my competitors a lot of knowledge as it happens, they have no sentiment or ethics about that.

There are a lot of users in this world and people that dont reciprocate. That sounds bitter but it happens to a lot of people and the users justify it as ''moving on''

I dont blame manufacturers and those who work bloody hard for protecting a lot of what they know, as there are parasites everywhere you look.

Robert Taylor
19th January 2011, 12:17
In most cases no, we would be better off working in jobs that are worth doing and importing the goods from overseas. If we can't make something competitively without lowering the pay to under $2 per hour then it just isn't going to (and shouldn't) happen. Every country in the developed world has some degree of specialisation and imports many goods, even large economies like the US of A.

There are exceptions of course and where we can be competitive then sure, why not. We do make higher priced clothing here, but there is no point in trying to make cheap clothing when it can be bought in from China at a 3rd the price. If I could afford it I'd wear Celtic Leather gear - maybe one day?

Part of the answer is that the workers in the 3rd world economies shouldnt be exploited and should be paid a decent wage. Then the goods would be a true value rather than an artificially low one

R-Soul
19th January 2011, 13:11
Part of the answer is that the workers in the 3rd world economies shouldnt be exploited and should be paid a decent wage. Then the goods would be a true value rather than an artificially low one

But if they were paid a decent wage, they would not have the manufacturig job in teh first place. Vicious cycle. Global capitalism helps even out the worlds wealth imbalances. As a first world consumer, its your duty to the world to use the training your first world education has given you to ensure the first world stays ahead of the third world in temrs of intellectual capital, and buy the goods that get made in the third world countries.

A POINT TO CONSIDER: At the moment the economic models all assume growth - constant growth - to work. However, in the future, thats going to have to change, as constant growth means unsustainability for the world. I guess we are all going to have to face facts: The wealth of nations will even out (probably to a standard well below what we are all used to).

Edbear
19th January 2011, 13:14
Part of the answer is that the workers in the 3rd world economies shouldnt be exploited and should be paid a decent wage. Then the goods would be a true value rather than an artificially low one

Interesting on the news last night was the huge money the Chinese are investing in US companies. They are buying struggling businesses and rebuilding them. One owner said she used to employ 15 staff and was struggling to survive, now they employ 400 and are very busy! So it's working both ways, although, one does question the future of US businesses under Chinese ownership without the necessary governmental check and balances.

These Chinese businessmen are very astute and are cash-rich and obviously see an advantage in investing not only in their own economy but in Western economies as well.

R-Soul
19th January 2011, 13:26
Agreed.


While I can see that that can make money (look at Microsoft), I don't like it.

The trouble with treating knowledge as property, and artificially restricting its dissemination, is that overall we end up doing more work than is necessary. If only all the producers of knowledge shared it, as is common in science, we'd all be better off - and the transfer happens both ways, so all the producers can benefit from the work of others. Sure there are some who are mostly consumers, but it doesn't actually cost the producer any more if more people consume, so who cares?

Patents are particularly evil, because they leave the second inventor with nothing, despite the fact that they've done just as much work to get there.

[edit: Our so called 'intellectual property' laws are of course just another form of government protection, which I don't see as being any more necessary than any other. The free-marketeers should be campaigning against them.]

Richard
(thinking mostly about software, because that's the industry I'm in)

You proclaim the good of sharing information, and then call the patents system evil? You clearly have no idea how or what the patent system is for.

The entire thinking behind the patent system is that the inventor is required to give a FULL disclosure of the new technology they have invented. In return for the full disclosure, the government grants a monopoly for a certain timespan. This is so that researchers do not have to reinvente teh wheel, but can instead go to the patents database, and establish what the latest technology is. Its exact purpose is for sharing of information.

It also encourages inevestment in industry in the country, as investors would rather invest money in building an industry in a country where protection is avaialble, than where it is not.

Having said that, I am not sure that it always works as intended - as we can get the latest tech from the US patent databases, without hindering free markets locally. The NZ patent database is a very poor cousin (with some 200,000 patents) to the US (with some 7million patents, and all the latest tech). But if Us companies could not get protection here for their inventions, then they would not invest in businesses here.

In some ways the patent system helps rich companies stay rich (it costs a fortune to enforce patents), but also allows small players to get in on the act with new inventions (and allows them to license the patents to rich companies who can enforce the patents for them). But too often the small inventors need big players to take a cut to make their dreams reality. Not enough assistance is given to the small guys to enable them to go it alone. Then again, if its not viable, it should not be there...

R-Soul
19th January 2011, 13:41
a) because you need it for something else

b) because someone else needs it and is paying you

c) yes, possibly for fun

I work for a company that writes software. A significant chunk of it is free software that anyone can download and use - we write and improve it largely on contract to clients who need new features.

Richard

I would suggest that as a software company, you are either:

1) not coming up with anything new and inventive that is worthy of protection (which is what patents protect - they protect inventions), and are therefore not driving technology along, but are merely using the fruits of others previous good ideas in number crunching work.

OR
2) If you are indeed coming up with new and inventive subject matter, and allowing it to be copied for nothing, then you are destroying a large part of the value of your company. Especially as software can be copied easily and distributed widely with no distribution costs. It is perfectly suite for coming up with new ideas, implementing them in software, and selling them around the world instantaneously. Selling time spent making software seems like a bit of a poor idea (there are only som any hours in a day, and so many employees in a co). Of course, if your clients paid you to invent, then they should be entitled to keep it and sell it as they see fit.

OR
3) Your busness model does not reside in sale of software, but rather sale of time spent working (and then see 2) above again) or sale of advertsing on the software or websites made. Software has many business models that cannot always be copied by manufacturers of tangible goods.

The base model of open source does not imply that the software is free - it can still cost- but must just be sold on with the source code being made available. Allowing for its modification just means that it gets more widely distributed - in a way, being open source is a form of marketing. There is always an alternate way of thinking with an angle for making money. If it is free, then why on earth would a software firm (and I do not mean arty farty students with too much time on their hands) spend time and resources and money on developing something for nothing, so that their copmetitors can use it the next day without having to spend a dime on it?

R-Soul
19th January 2011, 13:50
I have a question

Would New Zealand be a better place if we still had significant local manufacturing
as opposed to most stuff coming in from overseas for example our Auto industry, clothing Manufacturing industries, shoes manufacturing and there are a host of other manufacturing plants shut down as they cant compete with low priced imports.

And I am talking bigger picture not bloody leathers:msn-wink:

Thats a very vague and ambiguous question? Let me rephrase it:
1) Would NZ be better off with polluting, capital intensive, cost sensitive industries offering large numbers of low paying, tedious, menial jobs, so that people did not have to think hard about where their niche is, and what they can do to make themselves valuable? (And keepingi n mind that unemployment in NZ is pretty low anyway.)

OR How about:
2) Would NZ be better off having many large industries with large financial muscle that has clout with the government to act in their best interests (i.e. keep wages low) and spend taxpayes money on protecting their industries if they cannot perform efficiently enough?

R-Soul
19th January 2011, 13:52
It's a pity, but understandable in the current circumstances.

Would you and your competitors not all be better off if you agreed to share all your knowledge? Admittedly, racing is competition, so different rules may naturally apply around that.

Richard

And buisiness is not competition? The same law applies - the law of the jungle...

In fact racing is proabably less brutal, with less at stake!

MarkH
19th January 2011, 13:56
Part of the answer is that the workers in the 3rd world economies shouldnt be exploited and should be paid a decent wage. Then the goods would be a true value rather than an artificially low one

Who ever said they weren't paid a decent wage? There are plenty of places in the world where $2 per hour is a really good wage and easily enough to feed a family with. It seems to me that your solution is to take their jobs away and let them & their families starve to death.

Quasievil
19th January 2011, 14:41
Thats a very vague and ambiguous question? Let me rephrase it:
1) Would NZ be better off with polluting, capital intensive, cost sensitive industries offering large numbers of low paying, tedious, menial jobs, so that people did not have to think hard about where their niche is, and what they can do to make themselves valuable? (And keepingi n mind that unemployment in NZ is pretty low anyway.)

OR How about:
2) Would NZ be better off having many large industries with large financial muscle that has clout with the government to act in their best interests (i.e. keep wages low) and spend taxpayes money on protecting their industries if they cannot perform efficiently enough?

Those are very vague and ambiguous questions

jasonu
19th January 2011, 15:07
Interesting on the news last night was the huge money the Chinese are investing in US companies. They are buying struggling businesses and rebuilding them. One owner said she used to employ 15 staff and was struggling to survive, now they employ 400 and are very busy! So it's working both ways, although, one does question the future of US businesses under Chinese ownership without the necessary governmental check and balances.

These Chinese businessmen are very astute and are cash-rich and obviously see an advantage in investing not only in their own economy but in Western economies as well.

Shit I wish I worked for that company. Whatever news about the US economy you are being fed down there, THERE IS NO GOOD NEWS THAT IS TRUE. This place is seriously screwed and will remain so for a good few years yet.

Edbear
19th January 2011, 15:23
Shit I wish I worked for that company. Whatever news about the US economy you are being down there, THERE IS NO GOOD NEWS THAT IS TRUE. This place is seriously screwed and will remain so for a good few years yet.

Obviously it will take a lot of Chinese investing in a lot of US companies to make a difference given the $multi-trillion national debt! The world's economic face is changed forever and the world's economic powerhouses are no longer as they battle virtually insurmountable debt and shrinking markets.

Anyone who thinks things are going to get better soon are dreaming or desperate! There will be pockets of success, perhaps in the short term, but we can look forward to spiralling costs for basic supplies, I mean literally bread and butter and energy, and growing civil discontent. There may be some extremely radical solutions proposed to resolve things and expect more rioting in developed and 3rd world countries. Maybe this is the wrong thread, but it fits in that people everywhere are looking further afield for their needs, not being able to rely on local supply to be affordable for many things.

rwh
19th January 2011, 15:56
How would the clients feel if after paying you to write and improve the software, you then made it available free for public download?

In general, they know that's going to happen, and they're fine with that. In return, they know they're going to get other clients' improvements for free too - along with the whole package they didn't pay for in the first place.

They get a bunch of free software that does mostly what they want, plus a bunch of paid improvements that do exactly what they want, plus a bunch of free improvements that probably do something useful for them as well. Everybody wins.

Note that other companies are improving the software too; we get their improvements and they get ours.

Richard

steve_t
19th January 2011, 16:14
In general, they know that's going to happen, and they're fine with that. In return, they know they're going to get other clients' improvements for free too - along with the whole package they didn't pay for in the first place.

They get a bunch of free software that does mostly what they want, plus a bunch of paid improvements that do exactly what they want, plus a bunch of free improvements that probably do something useful for them as well. Everybody wins.

Note that other companies are improving the software too; we get their improvements and they get ours.

Richard

Sounds like you shouldn't be charging for your work :msn-wink:

Brian d marge
19th January 2011, 16:18
In general, they know that's going to happen, and they're fine with that. In return, they know they're going to get other clients' improvements for free too - along with the whole package they didn't pay for in the first place.

They get a bunch of free software that does mostly what they want, plus a bunch of paid improvements that do exactly what they want, plus a bunch of free improvements that probably do something useful for them as well. Everybody wins.

Note that other companies are improving the software too; we get their improvements and they get ours.

Richard


Love open source !

The software I use is all open source , Red hat and opencfd do quite well out of giving the product away ;...... free

The trainings expensive though ( for Joe public) but it brings you up to speed real quick

Stephen

Who puts back what he receives

rwh
19th January 2011, 16:30
I would suggest that as a software company, you are either:

1) not coming up with anything new and inventive that is worthy of protection (which is what patents protect - they protect inventions), and are therefore not driving technology along, but are merely using the fruits of others previous good ideas in number crunching work.

My feeling is that genuine significant innovations are relatively rare. Most improvements are small and incremental, and not really worthy of a patent anyway. That doesn't stop greedy companies applying for patents on obvious stuff, and ignorant patent offices awarding them.


OR
2) If you are indeed coming up with new and inventive subject matter, and allowing it to be copied for nothing, then you are destroying a large part of the value of your company. Especially as software can be copied easily and distributed widely with no distribution costs. It is perfectly suite for coming up with new ideas, implementing them in software, and selling them around the world instantaneously. Selling time spent making software seems like a bit of a poor idea (there are only som any hours in a day, and so many employees in a co). Of course, if your clients paid you to invent, then they should be entitled to keep it and sell it as they see fit.

We may be destroying perceived value, yes. But given that we've picked our niche in open source, we'd be destroying that value by patenting things left right and centre. Most of our clients are not in the software development business, and have no interest in selling software. They know that there is a valuable tradeoff in releasing their improvements and gaining everybody elses.


OR
3) Your busness model does not reside in sale of software, but rather sale of time spent working (and then see 2) above again) or sale of advertsing on the software or websites made. Software has many business models that cannot always be copied by manufacturers of tangible goods.

That's probably the closest to what we do - sale of time spent working, both design and implementation (and to a lesser extent, sometimes hosting as well). Yes, software is different to tangible goods - it is really just a design, which gets turned into something useful when the computer runs it. That doesn't mean you can't distribute the designs for tangible goods in the same way.


The base model of open source does not imply that the software is free - it can still cost- but must just be sold on with the source code being made available.
Not just with source code and modifiable, but freely copyable and distributable as well. Yes it's fine to sell CDs with open source sofware on them, or charge for downloads - but most people won't bother to get it that way, unless they need a CD's worth and only have dialup internet - or they want to make a financial contribution.


Allowing for its modification just means that it gets more widely distributed -
And more widely used, in ways the originator possibly didn't think of


in a way, being open source is a form of marketing.

Perhaps - though many people who get our modifications won't have heard of us (we return them 'upstream' to be downloaded by others) - but yes, the more the software is distributed, the more people there are wanting fixes and upgrades - and the better it gets - and the more people get employed, in various ways, to look after it.


There is always an alternate way of thinking with an angle for making money.

That's the most significant point, I think.


If it is free, then why on earth would a software firm (and I do not mean arty farty students with too much time on their hands) spend time and resources and money on developing something for nothing, so that their copmetitors can use it the next day without having to spend a dime on it?

Because we and our clients can make use of it. The fact that our (and their) competitors can also make use of it is (in many cases) neither here nor there.

Having said that, some of our clients do get improvements which aren't merged in, but they're usually very specific to their business (integration with other software systems they run, for example).

One of the downsides of having their own private code, of course, is that fewer people are looking at it, finding and often fixing bugs - and making further improvements on it.

Richard

rwh
19th January 2011, 16:34
Sounds like you shouldn't be charging for your work :msn-wink:

Why on earth not?

Our clients want something done, and are prepared to pay for it.

We can do it, and charge a reasonable rate.

If we weren't charging, we wouldn't be doing it, and the client woudn't get it. Where's the sense in that?

Richard

rwh
19th January 2011, 16:43
And this all started from a little Honda cowl.

Er, yeah.

Sorry about (my contribution to) the thread jack ...

Richard

steve_t
19th January 2011, 16:48
Why on earth not?






Would you and your competitors not all be better off if you agreed to share all your knowledge?

Richard


[QUOTE=rwh;1129960926
Here's another way of looking at it: You put in a whole lot of work to develop something you personally have no/limited use for, expecting other people to pay for it. Is that not wrong?

[/QUOTE]

LOL. The wink was me pulling ya leg mate. I don't believe anyone's hard work should go unrewarded. I'm just following this thread and trying to understand people's viewpoints. I found it interesting that you suggested to RT that he might be better off sharing all of his hardgained knowledge and skills with everyone else for nought but software programming is different. Not sure how we got off bike goods and services to IP and patents though etc :drinkup:

So, how do the clients that commission freeware able to maintain their businesses? With paid "pro" versions?

Hell, I have no idea what wrong with the quote thingy

cheshirecat
19th January 2011, 16:54
Why on earth not?

Our clients want something done, and are prepared to pay for it.

We can do it, and charge a reasonable rate.

If we weren't charging, we wouldn't be doing it, and the client woudn't get it. Where's the sense in that?

Richard
As an example of how to survive in software check this article (http://www.fxguide.com/featured/art-of-stereo-conversion-2d-to-3d/)out on film visual effects (miss out the tech stuff) and how the pipe line uses co's in India, UK and USA and, importantly, how UK VFX co's stay on top of the game.

rwh
19th January 2011, 16:58
So, how do the clients that commission freeware able to maintain their businesses? With paid "pro" versions?

They're not in the software business. They use it :)

Richard

Robert Taylor
19th January 2011, 21:08
Who ever said they weren't paid a decent wage? There are plenty of places in the world where $2 per hour is a really good wage and easily enough to feed a family with. It seems to me that your solution is to take their jobs away and let them & their families starve to death.

No, youve made an incorrect judgement call on what I said.

Brian d marge
20th January 2011, 01:26
Dont want to take this too far off topic , but was watching a news clip about a Restaurant in new Brighton Christchurch

Just asked customers to pay what they thought the meal was worth

and apparently there are one or two in Australia like that

apply that to a bike shop or import business,,,,, ( one half of me says its a good I dea the capitalist side of me just lost all bowel control )

Stephen

warewolf
25th January 2011, 21:11
How often do we hear of business owners working for less income than their staff?Yes, but it's disingenuous due to risk & reward.

Business owners are working to build the value of their business that they will cash in later. They often get lots of ex-tax expenses paid and other "off the books" rewards not available to employees, particularly in this country.

Wage slaves basically walk away with only what they get paid then and there. If the business booms profitably the hard-working owner will not redistribute those rewards to the employees who didn't share the risk.

Besides, who says the owner has to have the biggest salary? Good staff in some industries are compensated at a higher level than owner managers. Big whoop. A smart business owner will attract and reward quality staff, thereby building his business. Doesn't make those higher salaries in any way wrong.

warewolf
25th January 2011, 21:12
Would New Zealand be a better place if we still had significant local manufacturing
as opposed to most stuff coming in from overseas for example our Auto industry, clothing Manufacturing industries, shoes manufacturing and there are a host of other manufacturing plants shut down as they cant compete with low priced imports.Good question.

Thats a very vague and ambiguous question? Let me rephrase it:
1) Would NZ be better off with polluting, capital intensive, cost sensitive industries offering large numbers of low paying, tedious, menial jobs, so that people did not have to think hard about where their niche is, and what they can do to make themselves valuable? (And keepingi n mind that unemployment in NZ is pretty low anyway.)Why be so negative?

I happen to work for a significant local manufacturer; a world-class exporter that has been going from strength to strength for the last 25 years. They produce a top-quality product that has contributed to the demise of a similar plant coincidentally in my hometown in Aussie. How? By using their noggins to work smarter & better not harder. Lots of automation, good processes, good quality control. There are surprisingly few menial jobs in the place, but shitloads of talented technical/engineering people that are always busy improving things.

Edbear
25th January 2011, 21:21
Yes, but it's disingenuous due to risk & reward.

Business owners are working to build the value of their business that they will cash in later. They often get lots of ex-tax expenses paid and other "off the books" rewards not available to employees, particularly in this country.

Wage slaves basically walk away with only what they get paid then and there. If the business booms profitably the hard-working owner will not redistribute those rewards to the employees who didn't share the risk.

Besides, who says the owner has to have the biggest salary? Good staff in some industries are compensated at a higher level than owner managers. Big whoop. A smart business owner will attract and reward quality staff, thereby building his business. Doesn't make those higher salaries in any way wrong.

You're perzackery right! At the moment my wife makes a more than double what I am, but I'm building a business from scratch and investing everything back into it. The medium term prospects are looking very good for fast growth and I have attracted the attention of "those that can, and want, to help me build my business." I've gained the backing of one of NZ's oldest and largest suppliers who want to work with me to our mutual benefit.

I'm also using my networking results both within NZ and overseas to take advantage of opportunities that would be unavailable to other competitors.

And, I do a lot of research to ensure I am aware of the industry and the markets I am targetting.

R-Soul
27th January 2011, 14:11
Good question.
Why be so negative?

I happen to work for a significant local manufacturer; a world-class exporter that has been going from strength to strength for the last 25 years. They produce a top-quality product that has contributed to the demise of a similar plant coincidentally in my hometown in Aussie. How? By using their noggins to work smarter & better not harder. Lots of automation, good processes, good quality control. There are surprisingly few menial jobs in the place, but shitloads of talented technical/engineering people that are always busy improving things.

I guess it does depend on how you define "manufacturing".

In this case the whole process of globalisation has enocouraged more thought, less "doing what he have always done", questioning the established, and finding a niche that is gloally competitive (and does not rely on taxpayer money and government protection to stay in busness). Well done. A classic case of redefining teh busness model and applying efforts to something more viable.

Now contrast that with the typical scenario of labour intensive, poor workplace conditions, crap pay, clamouring for government protection to "keep jobs", etc....

If its not viable, DONT DO IT!

Gremlin
28th January 2011, 01:56
Well... over the course of the last couple of weeks I've been one of those evil ones ordering from overseas.

6 packages, 4 from USA, 1 from Germany, but 1 from Mt Maunganui (part came from somewhere, NZ had no stock). These parts are not available in NZ, so I don't feel like settling for the inferior versions that may be available here.

Denali LED lights from Twisted Throttle
Various stuff from Touratech (Germany and USA)
HID lights from Xenonrider
Crash Bars and Air Pumps from AdvDesigns

All overseas orders arrived in no less than 5 days, no more than 7 days.

To console those that are preparing my lynching rope, the panniers, handguards and headlight guard were ordered straight from the dealer...

mokomoa
28th January 2011, 08:31
Parts ordered from af1 in Texas arrived within the week.
Parts ordered from NZ never arrived wtf.
Importers of Aprilia parts nz can fuckin kiss my arse will Never deal with them again!

Smifffy
28th January 2011, 09:19
Well... over the course of the last couple of weeks I've been one of those evil ones ordering from overseas

All overseas orders arrived in no less than 5 days, no more than 7 days.

To console those that are preparing my lynching rope, the panniers, handguards and headlight guard were ordered straight from the dealer...

How long did the panniers, handguards and headlight guard take to arrive?

steve_t
28th January 2011, 09:22
Well... over the course of the last couple of weeks I've been one of those evil ones ordering from overseas.

These parts are not available in NZ,

To console those that are preparing my lynching rope, the panniers, handguards and headlight guard were ordered straight from the dealer...

No-one is going to lynch you because obviously you checked with NZ bike shops :niceone: And even if they were available here, if the bike shop's best price was $600 for something you can get for $200 overseas, no-one is going to (should) resent you for choosing the $200 option. There's a difference between supporting our local guys and just being stupid :msn-wink: Just where the line between them sits is the issue, and obviously different for different people

Gremlin
28th January 2011, 17:22
How long did the panniers, handguards and headlight guard take to arrive?
Panniers were sent from Auckland (BMW warehouse) to Mount Maunganui within a week (they had to be keyed to the bike with locksets etc). Headlight guard was in stock in the shop. Handguards were not available in NZ, so arrived from elsewhere, and seemingly took over a week to reach Mount Maunganui, then sent to me in Auckland.

No-one is going to lynch you because obviously you checked with NZ bike shops
Well (now I'm looking for a lynching)... I didn't check the shops. They are not BMW parts, they are aftermarket accessories, Touratech, XenonRider, Denali, but yes, those brands don't even have importers in NZ.

oldguy
28th January 2011, 17:58
price is what drives me,

I am a customer, with a limited amount of money, so have no loyalty to local buissness,
if I can get it cheaper else where (overseas) than thats where my money goes.

ynot slow
29th January 2011, 08:00
Ok my perspective,recieved a chain oiler via UK recently,emailed the company about twin nozzles as mine was sent as single,recieved reply on Tuesday(email sent Sunday arvo)telling me their kiwi agent had them.Rang said agent and he gave me relevant info.Cost $42 kiwi,delivery took 10 days or so,and unbeknown available here for $60 approx.

Compare that to a huge company in Auckland selling bike gear etc,saw on trademe they're selling chain and sprocket sets at good price,with upgrades available on chains,rang Tues 18th for info,got nice lady who took my contact number and bike details,guess what I had no reply,sure lady may have passed on message,but no one phoned me back.This seems to be the issue here in kiwiland,the laxadaisy attitude to business not placing importance on follow up.

I was given a message about a quote a lady required last Friday arvo,rang ladies cell and left answer,this week rang and noted times of calls,at least 15 calls and messages twice still no reply.

wide chicken strips
29th January 2011, 21:42
I just imported some stuff from the states for my bike and a friends. While I made some decent savings on my stuff, it was the part I got for my friend that blew me away. Honda want to charge over $600 for the seat cover for a 2009 CBR1000RR. That's $600+ for a piece of plastic smaller than the cover of a magazine. Yes it comes painted and with decals. However I bought the same part for him from America for US$164 (NZ$210), add on shipping, customs and GST it still came out at being under half price.

Seriously. It's a fucking joke. I know it's not the dealers who set the price (thanks Blue Wing) but $600 for a fucking piece of plastic? After this experience (took less than 2wks to get here right on xmas time) I know I'll be looking overseas first. Sure I'll still look at NZ suppliers, but I won't be wasting any time if I find a similar situation to what I've just experienced.

So yes Robert Taylor and other staunch supporters of buying locally, I'd love to keep my money in NZ, keeping NZ'ers in jobs, keeping the NZ economy ticking along, but if it stays like this the only NZ companies I'll be supporting will be couriers.

I quite agree that importing from overseas...especially the USA can show you some decent savings over local pricing. It's a long, long time since I worked for a Honda motorcycle franchise but in the 1980's Blue Wing Honda had two tiers of discount they offered their dealers and I used to happily pass on the benefit of the cheaper option to customers. Basically Blue Wing used to offer dealers 25% (from memory) for parts ordered and shipped on the same day as ordered (assuming they were ex their Akld warehouse). If the dealers (and the customer) was prepared to wait for a weekly stock order I believe the discount may have been around 40%...and it was some or all of the extra discount that I used to pass on to the punters. There were pitfalls - If you ordered on the slowboat/weekly stock order basis I think the parts were non-returnable (to Blue Wing). This meant the dealer would probably want to be paid (at the discounted price) at the time of ordering as a safeguard against the customer never returning to pickup & pay for indented parts as this was a reasonably frequent & costly occurence. I wouldn't be in this least bit surprised if Blue Wing have discontinued the two tier discount option as a means of their increasing margin but it would not hurt you to investigate. It is also useful to tap into someone with guru like knowlege of your bikes spares as Honda (and I'm sure other manufacturers) would often have identical parts on different model bikes at totally different prices.Possibly Suzuki NZ et al had or have similar deals. Another tip for saving money on spare parts - Always buy a "naked" bike. A faired bike falling off its stand doing zero kph can do thousands of dollars of damage to itself while a naked bike will pick itself up, shake itself...and with a few hits of a Bronson Rock be totally roadworthy again for nix. Cheers.

Brian d marge
29th January 2011, 23:13
Hang on a min
Just thought , Im not in NZ and I order from NZ all the time and the ones who get my repeat business are ,,,good , ( I wont say good because if you want to see customer service ,,Japan is, well good )

I will email, wait , no reply , move on ,,,

If however I get some sort of reply , my wallet loosens and while I may not be spending much ( about 3, 400 each order ) its regular and reliable

On the whole I have found Kiwi business ( possible the older ones ) to be crap at communication , but the ones who do communicate are also pretty damn good at what they do ( and most of the time quite competitive , Except one Christchurch rapid prototyping firm who tried 700 dollars for a gear lever , hey try 60 dollars from Holland !!!)

I just sent some designs of to the machine shop , a 150mm triangular bracket and 2 40mm spacers, old guy round the corner from me . 35 000 yen , nice bit of work all good , from America 25 000 and probably the same from NZ ( haven't checked )

So for me the prices are similar , ( tend to be ) , its the communication I look for also with say Japanese if you make a mistake and call out say 5mm thick , They will machine it to 5mm , where a kiwi will say , hey as supplied sheet is 5mm is that good enough ?? Saving lots of Money
The American machinist , just has a min tolerance ( which is very handy I might add ) , you just click the button marked cheap as f5%&k highlight and tolerance the important ones and send ... Really quick , half the time I don't bother with the title block..just draw and send

Now when I need to work with someone, one of my favorites is Steve Bridge , from F1 , soo accessible . a pleasure to do business with ( not that I have in a while ,,,my bad )

So while SOME may be ,,,idiot , Many are just a pleasure to deal with ,,,,and they come from

eermmm

New Zealand

Stephen

MarkH
30th January 2011, 11:36
I have to agree - plenty of good bastards here in NZ!

BUT:
There are products available here in shops that are imported by the one official NZ importer and in many cases that imported is concerned less with market share and more with making as much as possible on each item sold. Unlike some that bring in a good product and sell it for a fair price they push the boundaries of what the market will stand. When the price here is 2 1/2 times the RRP of USA instead of 1 1/2 times (maximum) like the exchange rate would suggest and when you can easily find that item for well under the RRP in the US (like 2/3 RRP or less) then where are you going to buy from?

To me this is a case by case sort of thing - I'll buy here where the NZ merchant is good to deal with and has what I want at a fair price (why wouldn't I) but not when the price here is a complete rip-off. Often there is nothing your local store can do, since it is the greedy importer whacking on the huge margin.

I guess I just prefer to pay NZ$150 for an item delivered to my door (from USA) rather than NZ$250 from a local shop - I can find a good use for that $100 saved.