Street Races... and modern hay bales

[TonyB]

Yeah I know- kind of an odd thread, but you'll see what I'm on about.

Down here in the South Island, haybales are commonly used as crash protection by street race organisers. In the good old days they could easily get the old fashioned 'conventional' bale. A dry standard bale weighs about 20 to 25kg, so even if there's a stack of them when you go flying into them they'll move easily enough and slow you down fairly gently(ish).

Lately the supply of conventional bales is drying up. I doubt theres an agricultural contractor in NZ that still makes them. The most comon types of bale are now medium squares and large squares. A medium squre is equivalent to 10 to 12 conventional bales, a large square is equivalent to 12 to 15.

Because of this lack of supply, street race organisers have started using Medium or Large square bales. I've seen them at a couple of races lately. If you slide into a Medium or Large square bale, it's not gonna move much...if at all, because it weighs at least 10 times what the old conventional bales did.

A decent haybale is definitely NOT soft (I know this because I moved thousands of the bloody things in my youth). If you flew into an old conventional bale that was sitting against a wall, it would BLOODY HURT. The reason they worked is because they were small and light, so if you flew into a stack of them, you would only be effectively hitting one or two, and you would knock them out of the way, slowing down in the process. They were a lot softer than concrete and because they were small and held together by two bits of twine, they would bend or fly to bits. If you fly into a wall of Medium squares, you'll hit something that weighs about 250kg, so it wont move much and it definitely isn't going to bend or fly to bits.

Thats what I'm concerned about. I'm going to write a letter to MNZ pointing out this out and see if they can produce some guidelines. Anyone got any suggestions/ thoughts that are worth adding?

[Kickaha]

Thats what I'm concerned about. I'm going to write a letter to MNZ pointing out this out and see if they can produce some guidelines. Anyone got any suggestions/ thoughts that are worth adding?

What if MNZ have a think about it and say you've raised a valid point so sorry guys we can see a safety issue with using these, so we will no longer issue a permit to any meeting using them as crash barriers, you will have just killed a lot of street racing in the South Island

[rwh]

A decent haybale is definitely NOT soft (I know this because I moved thousands of the bloody things in my youth). If you flew into an old conventional bale that was sitting against a wall, it would BLOODY HURT. The reason they worked is because they were small and light, so if you flew into a stack of them, you would only be effectively hitting one or two, and you would knock them out of the way, slowing down in the process. They were a lot softer than concrete and because they were small and held together by two bits of twine, they would bend or fly to bits. If you fly into a wall of Medium squares, you'll hit something that weighs about 250kg, so it wont move much and it definitely isn't going to bend or fly to bits.

Umm, surely you don't really want the bale to disintegrate completely. If you hit an old bale against a wall, you're pretty much hitting the wall. Is the new bale really solider than, say, a tyre wall?

Richard

[dangerous]

I here ya Tony, been thinking about the very same thing myself... what was used at Nelson? cos they did some damage to N Cain, those used at Methven as a few found out sure were hard to move and hurt like hell.

[ellipsis]

...like kickaha says...........we're also getting into the personal liberties area too...nobody does it if they dont want to...on the other side of the coin is this...joe public stands behind those big bales...we have to look after them, we are definitely not allowed to kill them...

[wharfy]

...like kickaha says...........we're also getting into the personal liberties area too...nobody does it if they dont want to...on the other side of the coin is this...joe public stands behind those big bales...we have to look after them, we are definitely not allowed to kill them...

I have seen a kid killed by a bike that came over the top of a stack of bales and hit him full in the chest - he was sitting on his dads shoulders - they and 50 other people were standing in an area that had been roped off - the rope and the no access signs had been trampled into the mud !!!

Personally, I'd like to see something softer - A wool pack full of empty plastic bottles seems to work O.K. ( provided you don't go underneath them)

I've personally tested wool-pack-full-of-bottles, air fence and tyre wall - air fence is my preferred barrier :) followed by wool-pack-full-of-bottles I don't want to hit another tyre wall and I really wouldn't like to try a BIG bale - It ain't gunna move !

[Grumph]

Valid points - but in the current climate, spectator safety has priority over rider safety. We may eventully be reduced to riding betwen walls of stacked shipping containers....
In central Canty at least the small bales are still being made - but not in the numbers that they once were, agreed. Wyndham actually have a permanent store of bales for that meeting which I'm told have been re - bound once already.
Greymouth use I believe bags of Spagnum moss which works very well.
IMO if you want to see street races continue you will just have to acknowledge that the rider has to accept personal responsibility for his or her own safety and ride accordingly....and that's no different to events on permanent circuits.

[scracha]

IMO if you want to see street races continue you will just have to acknowledge that the rider has to accept personal responsibility for his or her own safety and ride accordingly....and that's no different to events on permanent circuits.

Sorry, compromising rider safety due to simple lack of planning and/or organisation just doesn't cut the mustard. Standard bales still get made (the horsey brigade and lifestyle block owners buy em) but are slightly more expensive.

Perhaps WE should start our own airfence fund since some organisers and spectators don't value our lives very much.

[TonyB]

I'm not saying don't use them at all, I agree they are excellent for spectator saftey. I'm saying be selective about where and how they are used. Personally I don't think they should be used in the areas where riders are most likely to end up if it all goes wrong.

I get the feeling that people have started using them without thinking about it too much-they've always used hay bales, the hay bales changed and they just kept using them.

[Billy]

Sorry, compromising rider safety due to simple lack of planning and/or organisation just doesn't cut the mustard. Standard bales still get made (the horsey brigade and lifestyle block owners buy em) but are slightly more expensive.

Perhaps WE should start our own airfence fund since some organisers and spectators don't value our lives very much.

Absolutely,Couldnt agree more,Most of these are 1 off meetings and the organisers have 12 months to sort this shit out and its just not acceptable that they cant make the venues as safe as possible.

[fi5hy]

On one trip to Greymouth about nine years ago I was walking around as a spectator and I was pissed off to see after having a look in one wool bale to find (GET THIS) not the plastic milk bottles but the H crates they carry the milk bottles in. Now that to me is putting the riders in danger big time imagine one of those splintering and entering your body on impact!!!!!!!! I hope like hell they have stopped using them now.

[Kickaha]

Sorry, compromising rider safety due to simple lack of planning and/or organisation just doesn't cut the mustard. Standard bales still get made (the horsey brigade and lifestyle block owners buy em) but are slightly more expensive.

Perhaps WE should start our own airfence fund since some organisers and spectators don't value our lives very much.


Absolutely,Couldnt agree more,Most of these are 1 off meetings and the organisers have 12 months to sort this shit out and its just not acceptable that they cant make the venues as safe as possible.

I think they do make them as safe as possible but within the resources and budget they have available, an insistence on airfence could mean the end of many street circuits due to not having the budget to provide it

No one forces you to ride at these events if you don't like the safety aspects don't enter

Does anyone know how much airfence is? I can't see pricing on their website?


On one trip to Greymouth about nine years ago I was walking around as a spectator and I was pissed off to see after having a look in one wool bale to find (GET THIS) not the plastic milk bottles but the H crates they carry the milk bottles in. Now that to me is putting the riders in danger big time imagine one of those splintering and entering your body on impact!!!!!!!! I hope like hell they have stopped using them now.

I think all the bales are filled with moss now and have been for several years now

[AllanB]

So logically a combination of large bales at the back and smaller ones at the front would offer spectator security and a 'softer' initial impact for the riders.

But with the way things are going they'll probably use cheese-cutters ........

[scumdog]

Wyndham actually have a permanent store of bales for that meeting which I'm told have been re - bound once already.
.

Hmm, I only noticed those large round bales (the ones about chest-high when standing on end) being used there.

They certainly didn't move bugger-all when hit.

[Ocean1]

Hmm, I only noticed those large round bales (the ones about chest-high when standing on end) being used there.

They certainly didn't move bugger-all when hit.

No, they had some old fashioned square ones scattered around, some under the bridge run-off iirc....

[scumdog]

No, they had some old fashioned square ones scattered around, some under the bridge run-off iirc....

You might be right, they may have been big-arsed 'square' ones.

But they were used a lot - i.e. from the bridge down-track on the right-hand side all the way onto the start of the main straight.

[johan]

Are fire retardant bags used at all for straw bales?

I'd be horrible if rider and bike was trapped under bales and it caught fire.

http://www.trackcare.com/tcare9.htm

[Kickaha]

Are fire retardant bags used at all for straw bales?

I'd be horrible if rider and bike was trapped under bales and it caught fire.

http://www.trackcare.com/tcare9.htm

No they aren't, some caught fire at Wangas a few years back when a Motard went into them

[Billy]

I think they do make them as safe as possible but within the resources and budget they have available, an insistence on airfence could mean the end of many street circuits due to not having the budget to provide it

No one forces you to ride at these events if you don't like the safety aspects don't enter

Does anyone know how much airfence is? I can't see pricing on their website?



I think all the bales are filled with moss now and have been for several years now

Sorry Warwick,But "within the rescources and budget" just doesnt wash,We are talking about human lives here,Motorsport is dangerous enough and I for one dont accept that MNZ would knowingly allow substandard bales to be used,

Many of the recent deaths in roadracing were avoidable and a good example of this was the Derek Hill/Phillip Harrison incident at Pukekohe where a good number of people were quick too blame rider error,What if there had been a flag marshall at point 6 (the kink) to advise riders approaching a blind corner at over 250kph that theres a problem ahead ????

Motorsport is dangerous at best,Near enough is NOT good enough,If the meeting cant be run in the safest possible manner then it shouldnt be run at all.

OH and I dont like the safety at street circuits and I dont ride them anymore either

[Kickaha]

Sorry Warwick,But "within the rescources and budget" just doesnt wash,We are talking about human lives here,Motorsport is dangerous enough and I for one dont accept that MNZ would knowingly allow substandard bales to be used,

Who says they're sub standard? maybe they do meet the criteria, is there any criteria? I for one would rather hit a bale than a lamp post or a kerb


Many of the recent deaths in roadracing were avoidable and a good example of this was the Derek Hill/Phillip Harrison incident at Pukekohe where a good number of people were quick too blame rider error,What if there had been a flag marshall at point 6 (the kink) to advise riders approaching a blind corner at over 250kph that theres a problem ahead ????

What if none of us had got out of bed that morning or what if we speed limited the 600 class to 100kph, what if a rider with a machine problem pulled off the circuit, what if, what if,what if


Motorsport is dangerous at best,Near enough is NOT good enough,If the meeting cant be run in the safest possible manner then it shouldnt be run at all.

I don't consider the haybales a problem, someone else does, what makes him right and me wrong?


OH and I dont like the safety at street circuits and I dont ride them anymore either

Plenty of people have the opposite opinion or they wouldn't be competing at them

I'm all for having softer shit to hit if I cock up but if it the difference between going racing is having bales or the meeting not being run due to having to have airfence in place I'll take the bales anyday

[kiwi cowboy]

Sorry, compromising rider safety due to simple lack of planning and/or organisation just doesn't cut the mustard. Standard bales still get made (the horsey brigade and lifestyle block owners buy em) but are slightly more expensive.

Perhaps WE should start our own airfence fund since some organisers and spectators don't value our lives very much.

So if you were a horsey or lifestyler you would be happy to loan your bales for a street race to possibly get wet and ruined if it was raining.
I do agree to a point that big bales arent the best though.

[Kickaha]

In the South island we're looking at a total of 6 street races within the next year perhaps if the organisers pooled resources something like airfence would be affordable, as none of the events clash it could be shared between venues

Regardless of any safety aspects put in place people will still find a way to fall off and fuck themselves up

[fi5hy]

No they aren't, some caught fire at Wangas a few years back when a Motard went into them

In that case the marshals were f**kin useless me and Jarod had to get out there and pull the bike out ourselfs

[scracha]

Kickha, dunno why you're ranting about meetings not happening because of a lack of air fences. Did I say that? No! I merely said WE (us...the riders) should organise air fences. $10 per rider per race into the kitty (no pun intended) would be a start.


So if you were a horsey or lifestyler you would be happy to loan your bales for a street race to possibly get wet and ruined if it was raining.

To be honest, if the big bales are given on "loan" then I for one, wouldn't have any issue with this but to be honest, I'm pretty sure more circuits use the same ones year in, year out.



I do agree to a point that big bales arent the best though.
A lot of bales (large and small) aren't suitable for food (stored too long, get damp, seals burst, etc) and can be had for nil, nada, nowt. So as I stated before, it's merely a lack of organisation (not money) that's compromising rider safety in terms of using big bales instead of standard ones.



I for one would rather hit a bale than a lamp post or a kerb
I for one would rather hit a large bale than a lamp post or kerb.
I for one would rather hit a small bale than a large bale.
I for one would rather hit an airfence than a small bale.
I for one would rather hit the kitty litter or run-off than an airfence.
I for one would rather not hit anything.

We should have better planning and organisation to afford us the best protection available for our limited budget. Half arsed "she'll be right", "it's always been done that way" no8 wire style solutions don't cut the mustard and quite frankly, lives HAVE needlessly been lost because of this. Please don't respond with the usual "wrap in cotton wool / play tiddlywinks" shite as I'm not interested.

Motorsport is dangerous. It doesn't have to be a potential suicide mission. NZ Tracks, Paeroa, Wanganui, etc are not the Isle of Man

[Ocean1]

You might be right, they may have been big-arsed 'square' ones.

But they were used a lot - i.e. from the bridge down-track on the right-hand side all the way onto the start of the main straight.

No, you were correct, most of 'em were big round things. It's just that they had some of the old standard rectangular ones in some places too.

[TonyB]

I think round bales are even heavier than the new square bales. Might be softer though?

The spots where big bales are a problem are basically where you can hit them at speed after an off- run off areas and the bits where we tend to end up if we drop it on corner entry or exit. Its actually not that big an area. I reckon it wouldn't be too hard to source enough standard bales or whatever to spill those spots. Put as many big bales as you like everywhere else as far as I'm concerned, because the very thing that makes them dangerous for riders makes them bloody good at protecting spectators.

I see what people are saying re bales catching on fire. But can airfrences catch fire? Bags of bottles or tyre walls can- not as easily as hay I guess. Shit if they can't use hay at all they really will be screwed. I'm not even gonna go there...

[Genie]

I was interested in what was in the big bags things at the Nelson races the other day, I had me a wee inspection...loaded up with plastic bottles. Thought that was a good idea but it was placed in front of a powerpole and I wondered whether a bale of straw would be better....

[budda]

cant believe I'm saying this, but most of you are at least partly right.

I can tell you that the issues are being looked at, alternatives are being considered, and that the bales DO perform two functions - crowd protection and rider protection.

The real issue is that the requirements are decidedly different. As one involved at Methven last year, I can say I'm sure things will be better this time round.

Ditto with Wyndham - the reason the bales are different every year is that where we perceive that there was a problem, we fix it. I understand that the bales used since the first meeting were baled "soft", in an effort to provide the "cushioning" effect riders need. Softer std bales are placed in probable impact areas for the obvious reasons ...... I'm positive that the Good Folks of Wyndham will be working together with the Southland Club to improve AGAIN next time - thats how it works.

The only thing that hasnt improved over time is the behaviour of some of the "organic components" involved in racing - very seldom the machines fault !

[Kickaha]

Kickha, dunno why you're ranting about meetings not happening because of a lack of air fences.

What I'm saying is be careful what you wish for in case we end up with nothing


Did I say that? No! I merely said WE (us...the riders) should organise air fences. $10 per rider per race into the kitty (no pun intended) would be a start.

I can't see pricing on the airfence website but on a USA site they were talking $30,000 for 350ft of it, cant be arsed doing the conversion from US$ but thats 3000 riders at $10 a shot although I'm sure there'd be other ways of raising money towards it

[ellipsis]

....ah fuck it...lets stop racing...forest and bird...

[Frenchy]

Ditto with Wyndham - the reason the bales are different every year is that where we perceive that there was a problem, we fix it. I understand that the bales used since the first meeting were baled "soft", in an effort to provide the "cushioning" effect riders need. Softer std bales are placed in probable impact areas for the obvious reasons ...... I'm positive that the Good Folks of Wyndham will be working together with the Southland Club to improve AGAIN next time - thats how it works.

At Wyndham why dont the put the bales back 10m or so at turn 1? there is no kurb poles or fence.... just a big truck they park there and then put bails in front of it on the edge of the road!

[Grumph]

The small original style bales were adequate for relatively light slow bikes in the 60's and 70's but when you realise the kinetic energy of a modern 1000 - and factor in sidecars as well....IMO the big bales may even be too light...
The problem is stopping a bike going through bales while providing enough cushioning for a rider too.
Street circuits will never be as safe as permanent circuits - that's a given.
Yes organising clubs do their best with what resources they can source or afford but as I said before spectator safety has to take first priority. At the planning/approval level, no guarantee of spectator safety, no meeting, period. And being realistic, no spectators, no money into the town , no reason for the essential local support to continue

re whether you're happy riding street circuits....i like Shaun's attitude - I won't ride there unless I'm paid - totally justifiable and understandable. No one's twisting your arm to ride. Wanganui was eased out of the Nat series as a lot of people felt it was no longer justifiable to force riders to go for points on a street circuit - any street circuit.

[jellywrestler]

In the South island we're looking at a total of 6 street races within the next year perhaps if the organisers pooled resources something like airfence would be affordable,
have you priced air fencing? have you priced the transport of air fencing?
Paeroa were offered Wanganui's air fencing last year but turned it down due to the transport costs, from Hampton Downs, and you know how much money Paeroa turns over.

[TonyB]

I can tell you that the issues are being looked at, alternatives are being considered, and that the bales DO perform two functions - crowd protection and rider protection.

The real issue is that the requirements are decidedly different. As one involved at Methven last year, I can say I'm sure things will be better this time round.

Ditto with Wyndham - the reason the bales are different every year is that where we perceive that there was a problem, we fix it. I understand that the bales used since the first meeting were baled "soft", in an effort to provide the "cushioning" effect riders need. Softer std bales are placed in probable impact areas for the obvious reasons ...... I'm positive that the Good Folks of Wyndham will be working together with the Southland Club to improve AGAIN next time - thats how it works.

Budda, how does it work?

are you guys working to some sort of MNZ guideline?
are you working with other street race committes?
or is each group working it out individually by trial and error?

[steve74]

On one trip to Greymouth about nine years ago I was walking around as a spectator and I was pissed off to see after having a look in one wool bale to find (GET THIS) not the plastic milk bottles but the H crates they carry the milk bottles in. Now that to me is putting the riders in danger big time imagine one of those splintering and entering your body on impact!!!!!!!! I hope like hell they have stopped using them now.

Im not suggesting that you are incorrect as it is possible, but i think you will find this is a one off find. We have not used hay bales in greymouth for over 15 years. Most were Moss filled wool bales which we found went rotten after being stacked away wet one year. We then had them filled with plastic milk bottles which were in plentiful supply from a local milk factory that went bust. I have made dozens of these bales myself and have never seen a milk crate yet? It is a concern that you have mentioned it though. In recent times each bag has been packed by hand and are filled with only 1 and 2 litre bottles which are washed out before bagging. There are some which contain smaller cream sized bottles but we found that if the bale tears open they spread onto the track which is not ideal.

steve

[wharfy]

Perhaps WE should start our own airfence fund since some organisers and spectators don't value our lives very much.

Perhaps MNZ should buy some air fences and loan them out to the organizers of meetings ?
I have no clue how much they cost, but I'd be prepared to pay a small additional levy to support it

Slightly off topic rant (as long as it was kept separate and didn't go into the general funds like our petrol taxes that are supposed to be used on roading do )

After all They take our license fees to make motorcycling "Safe,Fun and Fair"

If ALL racers took more interest and got involved in the running of MNZ we wouldn't need to start our own air fence fund !

[steve74]

I was astonished when racing in Paeroa and wanganui (the year that craig flood crashed and set fire to them) that hay bales were a prominent feature of these circuits as they are well established and high profile events. Call me soft but it sure changed my riding style for the day. As has been pointed out, im sure it comes down to cost and what each club can afford to make things as safe as possible.Yes, air fences are the ultimate but if MNZ made airbags mandatory at every street meet then im sure it would put an end to it. When the greymouth street race was set up in 1989 MNZ issued a set of guidelines and a "check list" for the set up of a street circuit. I have read this original document and found it mostly relevant to modern requirements but maybe it is time that they came to a set criteria for all circuits? Im not sure if MNZ issued a similar criteria for newer circuits like windam and methven but im agreed that there should be a set standard. The worst case scenario is that they could put it in the too hard basket and pull the pin on street racing altogether, i hope not.

[Ocean1]

Dumb question. I’ve often wondered why most street races are held either in a town itself or on the fringes of an industrial area? I'm tolerably sure there's usually fewer roadside obstacles a block or two outside town, easier to protect riders if there’s less poles and wider margins.

Less disruption, more room for complimentary activities and better parking. You’d think there’d be fewer consent issues, fewer issues all round.

Or is I just plain ignorant?

[Kickaha]

22.9 STREET CIRCUIT APPROVAL. Where a club is proposing to hold a street circuit road race meeting, a fully detailed plan of the circuit, clearly describing catch fencing and spectator safety barriers must be submitted to the MNZ Office no later than 3 months prior to the intended date of the meeting.

If necessary the Commissioner will arrange for an inspection of the circuit prior to the
issue of the permit to ensure that the proposed safety requirements are adequate.

This is the criteria for getting approval to get a a permit for a street meeting, obviously MNZ are happy with the current safety aspects of the existing street circuits or they wouldn't be issuing the permits

Going by the numbers entering the events the riders aren't to concerned either

[ynot slow]

Large hay bales are to heavy,what about trying straw bales,either conventional or medium,the medium straw bales are lighter than hay for sure.Also what about wood shavings in wool bales,maybe half to 3/4 full,can be stacked on top if required.

[TonyB]

Large hay bales are to heavy,what about trying straw bales,either conventional or medium,the medium straw bales are lighter than hay for sure.Also what about wood shavings in wool bales,maybe half to 3/4 full,can be stacked on top if required.Thats a good idea- saw mills have trouble dealing with their sawdust- from memory its now regarded as a toxic substance. They'd probably be happy to give it away. Heavier than bags of plastic milk bottles too.

Was talking to my dad when they were shearing recently, he was complaining (as farmers do) about the crap price of wool. That'd go well LOOSELY packed into bales (not compressed into a 180-200kg bale). Or you could use bags of dags...then when you're sliding towards them and yelling "SHIIIIT" ...you'd be right ;)

Seriously though, some of you are missing the point- the big bales I'm concerned about are being used in the runoff/impact/(what ever you want to call it) area on corners. At events I've raced in or spectated at, spectators aren't allowed to stand behind those bales- the areas behind them are of limits. So the bales are NOT there to protect spactators- they are there to stop/protect riders. At Nelson, they have hay bales, then a decent gap, then they have shipping containers to stop the bike if it makes it through the hay. In this situation, I believe using a 250kg big bale is going to hurt the rider unnecessarily. Thats the area I'm concerned about.

[Kickaha]

Seriously though, some of you are missing the point- the big bales I'm concerned about are being used in the runoff/impact/(what ever you want to call it) area on corners. At events I've raced in or spectated at, spectators aren't allowed to stand behind those bales- the areas behind them are of limits. So the bales are NOT there to protect spactators- they are there to stop/protect riders.

That wasn't the case at Methven as I was standing on the outside of two different corners behind them

[FJRider]

Dumb question. I’ve often wondered why most street races are held either in a town itself or on the fringes of an industrial area? I'm tolerably sure there's usually fewer roadside obstacles a block or two outside town, easier to protect riders if there’s less poles and wider margins.

Less disruption, more room for complimentary activities and better parking. You’d think there’d be fewer consent issues, fewer issues all round.

Or is I just plain ignorant?

Fewer pubs, shops, toilets, business's that may profit from the event ... if they dont need to go into town ... often they wont.

[Ocean1]

Fewer pubs, shops, toilets, business's that may profit from the event ... if they dont need to go into town ... often they wont.

Yeah, I'd sort of assumed that until I thought about it.

Over the last few years I haven't noticed many permanent resident business open for trade at the ones I've been to. The odd dairy, a pub I wasn't allowed to buy from, (apparently 'cause it was Sunday... In fact I'm struggling to get more than a handfull that were open at Paeroa, Wanganui or Wyndham combined. Never seen a toilet available to the public other than porta-loos and motels and camping grounds wouldn't be affected one way or another if the track was a mile away.

[Billy]

Seriously though, some of you are missing the point- the big bales I'm concerned about are being used in the runoff/impact/(what ever you want to call it) area on corners. At events I've raced in or spectated at, spectators aren't allowed to stand behind those bales- the areas behind them are of limits. So the bales are NOT there to protect spactators- they are there to stop/protect riders. At Nelson, they have hay bales, then a decent gap, then they have shipping containers to stop the bike if it makes it through the hay. In this situation, I believe using a 250kg big bale is going to hurt the rider unnecessarily. Thats the area I'm concerned about.

Exactl,So therefore something can be done to improve the safety at street circuits without it costing an arm and a leg,Simple commonsense and Im sure the likes of Budda and Johnny Hepburn will be on the case too make it as safe as is practical.

What if we didnt get out of bed or if you dont like it dont enter are just plain disrespectful statements to all that compete at any motorsport events

[TonyB]

That wasn't the case at Methven as I was standing on the outside of two different corners behind them Really? Didn't know that because I was out of town for that one.

My take on that situation is; don't let spectators into those riskier areas so that barriers that are potentially dangerous to the riders are no longer required- they can put rider freindly barriers there instead. Plenty of other places for spectators to stand.

[FJRider]

Yeah, I'd sort of assumed that until I thought about it.

Over the last few years I haven't noticed many permanent resident business open for trade at the ones I've been to. The odd dairy, a pub I wasn't allowed to buy from, (apparently 'cause it was Sunday... In fact I'm struggling to get more than a handfull that were open at Paeroa, Wanganui or Wyndham combined. Never seen a toilet available to the public other than porta-loos and motels and camping grounds wouldn't be affected one way or another if the track was a mile away.

Go to the Greymouth street races ... Labour weekend ...

A pub on every corner ....

[Drew]

Where's fuckin Harris? I'm sure he'll have something to say about this shit.

I'm with Kik on this one, if the event gets approval from MNZ and riders entering who are willing to accept the level of safety, then the only people moaning are the ones who think they are missing out unfairly.

To those people I say this, look the fuck around! Life isn't fair, harden the fuck up or give up.

[Kickaha]

What if we didnt get out of bed or if you dont like it dont enter are just plain disrespectful statements to all that compete at any motorsport events

Rubbish, different people are happy with different levels of risk, some people wont even consider riding a bike because they consider them to dangerous

If any competitor considers the level of risk at a street meeting to high then any competitor can make the choice to enter it or not, just don't fuck it up for the rest of us by trying to fix things that aren't broken

The amount of entries at street meetings would seem to me to be proof that a lot of riders don't consider safety of these circuits an issue

Could things be safer? of course they could given the right resources

[ellipsis]

Where's fuckin Harris? I'm sure he'll have something to say about this shit.

I'm with Kik on this one, if the event gets approval from MNZ and riders entering who are willing to accept the level of safety, then the only people moaning are the ones who think they are missing out unfairly.

To those people I say this, look the fuck around! Life isn't fair, harden the fuck up or give up.


<img src="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/icons/icon14.png">

[Grumph]

Yep, enough being polite - street races are one day entertainment for the benefit of the community which puts them on.
It's entirely up the individual whether you ride there or not.

You have freedom of choice - ride or not - agree or not.

I'd like to see the guys who don't like the current standards come out from behind their keyboards and actually help organise an event....nah, never happen.

[Billy]

Yep, enough being polite - street races are one day entertainment for the benefit of the community which puts them on.
It's entirely up the individual whether you ride there or not.

You have freedom of choice - ride or not - agree or not.

I'd like to see the guys who don't like the current standards come out from behind their keyboards and actually help organise an event....nah, never happen.

Been there,Done that,Quite possibly while you were at High school,Including Endurance races,National points rounds(numerous)Central sound of thunder and many more,Any other useful advice???

[Billy]

Where's fuckin Harris? I'm sure he'll have something to say about this shit.

I'm with Kik on this one, if the event gets approval from MNZ and riders entering who are willing to accept the level of safety, then the only people moaning are the ones who think they are missing out unfairly.

To those people I say this, look the fuck around! Life isn't fair, harden the fuck up or give up.

Bet your bottom dollar he would and Ill bet it aint "just throw ANY old bales wherever you think they MIGHT work"

"FAIR"Who mentioned fair?

[TonyB]

One last time.

I'm NOT saying ban big bales altogether, I'm saying don't use them in the small proportion of track where riders end up if they loose it going into, through or out of a corner.
Its not a big ask.
Street racing is not doomed.
There's enough small bales about that this can be achieved easily enough. Or maybe 'milk bottle bales' could be put infront of the big bales to give better crash protection.

I've spent the last 4 years of my professional career working with people who have serious permanent disabilities resulting from accidents. Trust me, you don't want to end up being a talking head attached to an oxygen tank and ventilator to help you breath. Or with a permanent brain injury. Or maybe just fucked up enough that you can no longer ride. Not when its avoidable.

With the old standard bales we had a system that was cheap and safe for riders. Now that they're not readily available we're moving to a system that is still cheap, but not safe for riders. How is that a good thing?

[Kickaha]

Been there,Done that,Quite possibly while you were at High school

If you possibly did it while he was at High School you must be really really really old


"FAIR"Who mentioned fair?

Drew did post #48 weren't you paying attention?

[Billy]

One last time.

I'm NOT saying ban big bales altogether, I'm saying don't use them in the small proportion of track where riders end up if they loose it going into, through or out of a corner.
Its not a big ask.
Street racing is not doomed.
There's enough small bales about that this can be achieved easily enough. Or maybe 'milk bottle bales' could be put infront of the big bales to give better crash protection.

I've spent the last 4 years of my professional career working with people who have serious permanent disabilities resulting from accidents. Trust me, you don't want to end up being a talking head attached to an oxygen tank and ventilator to help you breath. Or with a permanent brain injury. Or maybe just fucked up enough that you can no longer ride. Not when its avoidable.

With the old standard bales we had a system that was cheap and safe for riders. Now that they're not readily available we're moving to a system that is still cheap, but not safe for riders. How is that a good thing?


Spot on,Youve been in contact with the right person this afternoon as I understand,Hopefully he can help you get it sorted.

[Billy]

If you possibly did it while he was at High School you must be really really really old



Drew did post #48 weren't you paying attention?

I did say "possibly "and theres 1 too many reallys there

[scracha]

can't see pricing on the airfence website but on a USA site they were talking $30,000 for 350ft of it, cant be arsed doing the conversion from US$ but thats 3000 riders at $10 a shot although I'm sure there'd be other ways of raising money towards it

Air-fence prices are @#$ckin horrendous but should be a bit cheaper as they're made in Aus:innocent:. I'm in now way deluded that 300 odd racers coud raise the money in one single year but after a few years the fund would be substancial enough for continuous circuit improvement.



....ah fuck it...lets stop racing...forest and bird...
Did you want my copy? oh wait,
Please don't respond with the usual "wrap in cotton wool / play tiddlywinks" shite



Paeroa were offered Wanganui's air fencing last year but turned it down due to the transport costs, from Hampton Downs, and you know how much money Paeroa turns over.

Considering the money it turns over, I think the real issue is why Wanganui takes rider safety seriously?




Perhaps MNZ should buy some air fences and loan them out to the organizers of meetings ?
I have no clue how much they cost, but I'd be prepared to pay a small additional levy to support it

Can you honestly see MNZ organising this?



I'm with Kik on this one, if the event gets approval from MNZ and riders entering who are willing to accept the level of safety, then the only people moaning are the ones who think they are missing out unfairly.

What's wrong with analysing and suggesting improvements? Especially if they cost fuck all and might result in someone not getting fucked up.

By your analogy, any road rider should be content with the current situation of gravel, tar bleed, wire rope barriers and drunk drivers on our roads. Gawd forbid they end up as "moaners"

[jellywrestler]

I think the real issue is why Wanganui takes rider safety seriously?


The Cemetery Circuit is run by Motorcyclists, for Motorcyclists.
Paeroa is run by the Lions club,or similar, to make money for the local region.
Simple as that.

[steve74]

Rider and spectator safety is paramount!!

Last year MNZ were more involved with our set up. I walked the circuit with our safety officer and the MNZ steward the day before the event where the steward indicated and marked with paint where he wanted the run offs. A detailed description of materials and barriers used were given to the steward during this walkround. As always on race day once the circuit is constructed the steward is taken around the circuit to ensure the circuit in his opinion is safe. The riders reps, one from motard and one from roadrace are then taken around the circuit to ensure they are happy too. Changes are often made at this point and the track is continually repaired and changed during the day. Maybe MNZ is trying to improve its relationship with the clubs involved but we certainly seen more interest from them last time around.

[Grumph]

I did say "possibly "and theres 1 too many reallys there

No there aren't....if i could move fast enough I'd chase you down on my Zimmer frame....
Still working though incl CoC at a street race meeting this season mate....

If you haven't come south in recent years and seen what happens at the smaller street circuits what Tony is talking about is just theory...he has valid points re rider safety and yes MNZ is trying to improve things. But if we want these meetings to continue rider expectations must be tailored to what can be provided. Clubs and townships have limited budgets - as soon as these meetings run at a loss, that's it, it's over.
I'll repeat as some seem to be missing the obvious - Street circuits are temporary, can never be as safe as permanent circuits, and no one is forcing people to ride on them. The situation is not the same as the public road as our tax dollars pay for that and we must have a transport system.

[wharfy]

Can you honestly see MNZ organising this?

If riders got involved and lobbied for it - but seeing as how less than 10% even got of their arse to vote in the election of officers thats not likely - do some research come up with a plan, rally support for it from riders take it to MNZ - By my calculation you only need 600 supporters and MNZ have to do what you want or they will be voted out next election.




What's wrong with analysing and suggesting improvements? Especially if they cost fuck all and might result in someone not getting fucked up.


Nothing at all !!
If your serious you need to be a bit more "canny" about it. Lobby the clubs that organize events you are interested in to make the improvements you want to see.
I'm on the committee of the Vic Club and we will discuss any idea's put to us in the spirit of making motorcycling "Safe, Fun and Fair" (to quote MNZ).

Aye, fi a fly man lick ye sel 'twd be nay bither.*


* I'm not taking the piss - just trying to inject some humour :)

[T.W.R]

6x4 Round bales of either wheat or barley straw made with the bale pressure wound right off & baled in net-wrap have more cushioning effect than any of the conventional,medium,quadrant, or big square bales will ever have :yes:
Once laid on their sides have comparable surface area to a big square, a larger footprint and a far softer impact face. They're just more awkward handle once on their sides.
Most areas have local baling contractors who do rounds and they're usually cheaper also

[ellipsis]

.....No disrespect intended to anyone posting in this thread...its very easy to have a comment taken as flippant or disregarding of human life and safety issues...irrespective of how long one has been involved in the organisation of the sport or how concerned one may be of the horrible things that can happen...every meeting whether on a closed circuit or a street is as dangerous as any other sport that involves speed, and kinetic energy ...I cant comment on the Nth Island Street Circuits...they are big, attract huge crowds and riders that dont come near our Street Circuits down here and attract huge crowds of joe public...I know the scale of the events dont change the energies involved in a man versus immovable objects scenario...

...all street racing is dangerous to a point...riders are competitive by nature and competing for the same bit of tarmac in every corner is going to cause accidents...our meetings down Sth are supposed to be fun and a way to take our sport out to joe public...I dont think any prize money is up for grabs down here at street meetings so a lot of the safety issues regarding offs in corners could be minimised by riders realising this and not putting themselves or other competitors at risk...this does not take the risk out of the game but it would help...

...no disrespect intended to any class of m/c here, but the down time and clean ups of broken bits from huge fields of Motards all thinking that ten bikes fit in a two or three bike corner is a concern...likewise for F1 type machines that are putting huge horses on the ground and their relevant speeds. thundering around 1 to 1.5 km tracks...it wouldnt be a street race without them , but the extra danger to riders and public is heightened considerably...

...if the work involved in getting a street meeting going and a knowledge of how many hoops we have to jump through was known to all who have a comment to make and the fact that we as organisers dont sleep well knowing that something could go wrong , probably wouldnt make any difference...a suggestion I could make would be....dont moan at us...make suggestions, and then back them with turning up to an organising meeting with a list of volunteers who might turn their concerns into work on the days prior to the meetings , sorting out the softer options for the areas of perceived danger...

...no flippancy intended here but maybe the hard bits of mountains where climbers die regularly could have steps cut into them to minimise the risk of falling...all trees should be bubble wrapped in mountain bike courses ...all bluffs of over three meters in height should be fenced so hunters dont slip and break their necks...

[Buddha#81]

.....but maybe the hard bits of mountains where climbers die regularly could have steps cut into them to minimise the risk of falling...all trees should be bubble wrapped in mountain bike courses ...all bluffs of over three meters in height should be fenced so hunters dont slip and break their necks...

Your just being silly now Neil!:laugh:

[Grumph]

...if the work involved in getting a street meeting going and a knowledge of how many hoops we have to jump through was known to all who have a comment to make and the fact that we as organisers dont sleep well knowing that something could go wrong , probably wouldnt make any difference...a suggestion I could make would be....dont moan at us...make suggestions, and then back them with turning up to an organising meeting with a list of volunteers who might turn their concerns into work on the days prior to the meetings , sorting out the softer options for the areas of perceived danger...

...no flippancy intended here but maybe the hard bits of mountains where climbers die regularly could have steps cut into them to minimise the risk of falling...all trees should be bubble wrapped in mountain bike courses ...all bluffs of over three meters in height should be fenced so hunters dont slip and break their necks...

Don't forget mandatory lifejackets for Lemmings.....

Work on the days prior to the meeting is fine - but the planning and circuit approval incl what bales and where is done literally months before - and mainly by a very small core group working with a Steward. TWR has put forward a suggestion which has merit - and it's backed with expert knowledge. I hope any groups who are even now planning a meeting take note. The locals who put the circuit together usually have access to bale handling equipment so a different shape bale shouldn't cause problems.

[Billy]

.....No disrespect intended to anyone posting in this thread...its very easy to have a comment taken as flippant or disregarding of human life and safety issues...irrespective of how long one has been involved in the organisation of the sport or how concerned one may be of the horrible things that can happen...every meeting whether on a closed circuit or a street is as dangerous as any other sport that involves speed, and kinetic energy ...I cant comment on the Nth Island Street Circuits...they are big, attract huge crowds and riders that dont come near our Street Circuits down here and attract huge crowds of joe public...I know the scale of the events dont change the energies involved in a man versus immovable objects scenario...

...all street racing is dangerous to a point...riders are competitive by nature and competing for the same bit of tarmac in every corner is going to cause accidents...our meetings down Sth are supposed to be fun and a way to take our sport out to joe public...I dont think any prize money is up for grabs down here at street meetings so a lot of the safety issues regarding offs in corners could be minimised by riders realising this and not putting themselves or other competitors at risk...this does not take the risk out of the game but it would help...

...no disrespect intended to any class of m/c here, but the down time and clean ups of broken bits from huge fields of Motards all thinking that ten bikes fit in a two or three bike corner is a concern...likewise for F1 type machines that are putting huge horses on the ground and their relevant speeds. thundering around 1 to 1.5 km tracks...it wouldnt be a street race without them , but the extra danger to riders and public is heightened considerably...

...if the work involved in getting a street meeting going and a knowledge of how many hoops we have to jump through was known to all who have a comment to make and the fact that we as organisers dont sleep well knowing that something could go wrong , probably wouldnt make any difference...a suggestion I could make would be....dont moan at us...make suggestions, and then back them with turning up to an organising meeting with a list of volunteers who might turn their concerns into work on the days prior to the meetings , sorting out the softer options for the areas of perceived danger...

...no flippancy intended here but maybe the hard bits of mountains where climbers die regularly could have steps cut into them to minimise the risk of falling...all trees should be bubble wrapped in mountain bike courses ...all bluffs of over three meters in height should be fenced so hunters dont slip and break their necks...

Very well said,All very valid points and exactly the sort of feedback Tony B was looking for Im sure.As pointed out there are better options available and those involved in the running of these events will be made aware of them Im certain.

[ellipsis]

...yea dont worry... this is a good indicator to take along to our next meeting of how much better we have to be...if it means softer bales or milk bottle filled wool fadges on critical areas, we will push the local organisers for that...Ive never been under any illusion that what we do isnt bloody silly, either...yeeha..

[jellywrestler]

. milk bottle filled wool fadges make sure if you use these that all the bottles are lashed together through the handles.
There's been many a bale ripped open and the bottles scatter everywhere. Simple to sort beforehand.

[SWERVE]

Yep........ hit one at Greymouth 3 yrs ago that someone hard dislodged onto start finish line.............. clear street - 1000 tiny cream bottles - clear street.
certainly a different experience...but no damage to me or bike and i stayed on.
As you were!

[TonyB]

Very well said,All very valid points and exactly the sort of feedback Tony B was looking for Im sure.As pointed out there are better options available and those involved in the running of these events will be made aware of them Im certain.

Sure is! TWR's comment is gold, as is Gumphs.
Nice to see people starting to consider the options.

Billy, no ones been in touch yet?

I definitely get the feeling that organisers are working separately and good ideas aren't being shared around- this would mean that the ideas that don't work aren't either. I could be wrong though.

One of the comments I've heard about bags of plastic milk bottles is that they are so light that riders sometimes shoot straight underneath them. Has anyone ever tried weighting them-either with something soft but heay on top, or simply by half filling a few of the bottles with water?

[TonyB]

...all trees should be bubble wrapped in mountain bike courses ... erm...hate to tell you this, but on some of the Victoria Park MTB downhill courses, the trees ARE wrapped.:bleh:
No I didn't have anything to do with that one

[speights_bud]

sorry havent had the time to read the entire thread, but an idea for barriers, seeing how the arsehole fell out of the wool industry years ago, and wool aint worth what it used to be.
Growing up on a farm we used to shear regularly. A fully (i mean FULLY) packed woolbake weighs in at around 220kg (using hydraulic press). Occasionally we would have a half bale or so which would be much more suited to using as a barrier being much softer. Also being a bit heavier than the milk bottle in bags method & an air fence they might be less prone to the rider & bike sliding under them

what about halving or splitting into thirds a fully packed bale, giving a "hand packed" much more comfortable to hit bale. Similar to a giant bean bag.no way would i want to hit a full one, they're hard as concrete. there's plenty of wool being cut off sheep right across the country and theres a good chunk of it thats just shit quality and isn't worth much either. My 2c

[speights_bud]

I also have a solution to kerb/gutter impacts that i know will work, i have most of the resources/knowhow/machines to make it a reality but its a case of supply and demand to make it viable. surely it has already been done though.

[budda]

I also have a solution to kerb/gutter impacts that i know will work, i have most of the resources/knowhow/machines to make it a reality but its a case of supply and demand to make it viable. surely it has already been done though.

please contact me through MNZ Office then ..........

Ta
Buddha