I've bought a lemon, what are my rights?

[martybabe]

I bought a brand new bike in March 2010. To cut a long story short, the blasted thing has let me down on over 30 occasions. The dealer is some 350k away so getting it back to them is somewhat of a hassle, however, it has been returned to them twice, the latest visit has had it sitting in their workshop for 4 weeks and all they appear to have done is change the battery again because they can't find whatever the electrical problem is.

Sooo, having endured a hopelessly unreliable bike for nearly 10 months, 3 batteries and no guarantee it will ever start again once it has left the workshop, what are my options?

I'm not from NZ so the consumer protection laws (if there are any) are a mystery to me. I'm about to have words with the manager of the dealership but I would be better armed to do battle if I had an inkling of where I stood legally.

I'm not asking for Free lawyership here but if somebody can give me an idea of where I stand and where I start the inevitable battle for justice, it would be very gratefully appreciated.

Thanks Clever ones :niceone:

[yachtie10]

no expert but sounds like you have grounds for a refund
The issue will probably be records if it only been back to the dealer twice then it will be hard to prove the faults have happened as much as 30 times.
They may claim that they have not had a reasonable hance to rectify.

Have they given a loan bike? I would think that 4 weeks is a long time to wait and probably unreasonable

I would be presuring them for a refund based on the consumer guarantees act so at least if its fixed this time then you would have grounds for a refund.

Best of luck

[Usarka]

Have a browse through this......

http://www.consumeraffairs.govt.nz/for-business/by-business-type/motor-vehicle-traders-1/consumer-guarantees-act-for-motor-vehicle-traders

Key sections:



Serious faultsIf a vehicle has a serious fault, the consumer may choose between these remedies:

* rejecting the vehicle and seeking a refund or replacement vehicle (of similar value and type), or
* keeping the vehicle and seeking compensation for the loss in value.
Even if a serious fault can be fixed, the consumer may choose a refund rather than a repair.

What is a serious fault?A serious fault is one where:

a reasonable consumer would not have bought the vehicle if they had known the fault existed
the vehicle is significantly different from the demonstration model or its description
the vehicle is substantially unfit for its normal purpose and cannot be made fit for purpose by a repair
the vehicle is substantially unfit for the particular purpose it was purchased for – eg, you informed the consumer that the car will be able to tow their boat and it cannot.
the vehicle is unsafe.

From the Courts
The Courts have decided that a fault might be considered serious when:

the cost of the repair is high compared with the price paid for the vehicle – eg, repairs of $1,000 required on a car bought for $5,000
the vehicle has a number of small faults, which on their own may be minor, but together may be serious.
If you accept that the fault is serious, and that you are responsible under the CGA, you are obliged to accept the remedy that the consumer has chosen.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Yep, Consumer Guarantees Act:

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0091/latest/DLM311053.html?search=ts_act_consumer+guarantees_r esel&p=1&sr=1

Its written in plain English, have a look through it.

To hit some of the high points: You have a statutory guarantee that goods are of acceptable quality and fit for purpose (ss 6 & 8 respectively).

If not then you have remedies available (you must give them an opportunity to repair etc

here is s19:



Requirement to remedy

*

(1) A supplier may comply with a requirement to remedy a failure of any goods to comply with a guarantee—
o

(a) by—
+

(i) repairing the goods (in any case where the failure does not relate to title); or
+

(ii) curing any defect in title (in any case where the failure relates to title); or
o

(b) by replacing the goods with goods of identical type; or
o

(c) where the supplier cannot reasonably be expected to repair the goods, by providing a refund of any money paid or other consideration provided by the consumer in respect of the goods.

(2) Where a consumer obtains goods to replace defective goods pursuant to subsection (1), the replacement goods shall, for the purposes of this Act, be deemed to be supplied by the supplier and the guarantees and obligations arising under this Act consequent upon a supply of goods to a consumer shall apply to the replacement goods.

(3) A refund referred to in subsection (1)(c) means a refund in cash of the money paid or the value of any other consideration provided, or both, as the case may require.



You have a right to reject goods if they turn out to be unfit for purpose (s20) but you must follow the process in s22.

There is a case where a disgruntled customer, after having many difficulties with a vehicle, and a breakdown in relationship with the car dealer, was held to have validly rejected the goods (entitling him to a refund with costs etc) by taking the vehicle to the yard, and leaving it there.

I'll see if I can find a copy of the judgment.

Is this an issue with your XR1200? I only ask cos I want to take one for a strop as a potential next bike....

[martybabe]

no expert but sounds like you have grounds for a refund
The issue will probably be records if it only been back to the dealer twice then it will be hard to prove the faults have happened as much as 30 times.
They may claim that they have not had a reasonable hance to rectify.

Have they given a loan bike? I would think that 4 weeks is a long time to wait and probably unreasonable

I would be presuring them for a refund based on the consumer guarantees act so at least if its fixed this time then you would have grounds for a refund.

Best of luck


Have a browse through this......

http://www.consumeraffairs.govt.nz/for-business/by-business-type/motor-vehicle-traders-1/consumer-guarantees-act-for-motor-vehicle-traders

Key sections:

That's great thanks Guys. Yatchie10 you're quite right about the records, as I have mostly arranged rescue from my own resources (Friends/Family and jump leads) proving it's sad history may be a problem.

Usarka: That's brilliant, something to get my teeth into, I wonder would a minor but persistent (seemingly unsolvable problem) be considered a serious fault?

Anyway, I'll see what the phone call to the boss man brings but assuming I get no joy, where to next? citizens advice or a bog standard solicitor? I don't feel confident enough to fight this alone with my high level of ignorance.

Thanks again. :niceone:

[neels]

I wonder would a minor but persistent (seemingly unsolvable problem) be considered a serious fault?
If it makes it unsuitable for purpose, then probably yes, as in a motorcycle that won't start when you want to take it for a ride is not much use as a motorcycle.

[HenryDorsetCase]

If it makes it unsuitable for purpose, then probably yes, as in a motorcycle that won't start when you want to take it for a ride is not much use as a motorcycle.

thats what I reckon too

[martybabe]

Yep, Consumer Guarantees Act:

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0091/latest/DLM311053.html?search=ts_act_consumer+guarantees_r esel&p=1&sr=1

Its written in plain English, have a look through it.

To hit some of the high points: You have a statutory guarantee that goods are of acceptable quality and fit for purpose (ss 6 & 8 respectively).

If not then you have remedies available (you must give them an opportunity to repair etc

here is s19:



You have a right to reject goods if they turn out to be unfit for purpose (s20) but you must follow the process in s22.

There is a case where a disgruntled customer, after having many difficulties with a vehicle, and a breakdown in relationship with the car dealer, was held to have validly rejected the goods (entitling him to a refund with costs etc) by taking the vehicle to the yard, and leaving it there.

I'll see if I can find a copy of the judgment.

Is this an issue with your XR1200? I only ask cos I want to take one for a strop as a potential next bike....

Thanks for that, I am seriously considering leaving it there as they seem unable to offer me any Guarantee that the fault will not persist after I have driven it away. So back to square one with the return it to sender scenario.

Yes it is the XR although my particular problems do not seem to be common with the model (from what I've read) so I'm not about to bag the model as such, in fact this is my fourth Harley and I've never had a bit of trouble with the others and it is a great ride (when it's running). There comes a time however when enough is enough, being stranded everywhere soon becomes a chore.

[rastuscat]

When I read your first post you didn't mention the brand of the bike. My naughty mind immediately wanted to post 'I bet it's a Harley', but I restrained myself out of sympathy for you. Then it turns out I was right.

I had a similar problem with a big BMW, so I know it's not only HDs, but that's precisely why Harleys polarize people. Some love them, most hate them.

Go figure

:weird:

[spajohn]

Before getting a solicitor I would pick up the phone and speak to the people at Consumer Affairs after you have looked through the action points on their site.

I did with an issue I had with Mainfreight and the CA guys were awesome, and after several months got a refund with no more $ spent on my behalf.

[martybabe]

As an update for those of you kind enough to follow this sorry tale... I have just spoken to the manager of the dealership. He seems to be a reasonable chap and I explained the history of the bike including the breakdown on day one of ownership!

He was horrified at the saga and has decided to keep the bike for further investigation in consultation with the manufacturers and will not be returning it to me until he can guarantee that it will not break down with the same fault again.

If that assurance can not be given I will not pick the bike up and will pursue compensation on a legal basis.

Either-way, my time is at an end with this bike but I wouldn't dream of selling it on until I am satisfied that the problem has been resolved, even if fixed I will still take a huge hit on deprecation but if that means closure for me then so be it.

Despite my ownership of this bike proving to be a nightmare, it was my dream bike and I still have a lot of fondness for it, strange how they get you eh.

[PrincessBandit]

#11 great martybabe - it's nice to hear of shop owners who "appear to be a reasonable chap" and seem to want to do the right thing by you. Hope it all works out well. And yes, I can understand that there might still be a nostalgic attraction to something even if it turns out to be a lemon!
All the best for the outcome.

[HenryDorsetCase]

As an update for those of you kind enough to follow this sorry tale... I have just spoken to the manager of the dealership. He seems to be a reasonable chap and I explained the history of the bike including the breakdown on day one of ownership!

He was horrified at the saga and has decided to keep the bike for further investigation in consultation with the manufacturers and will not be returning it to me until he can guarantee that it will not break down with the same fault again.

If that assurance can not be given I will not pick the bike up and will pursue compensation on a legal basis.

Either-way, my time is at an end with this bike but I wouldn't dream of selling it on until I am satisfied that the problem has been resolved, even if fixed I will still take a huge hit on deprecation but if that means closure for me then so be it.

Despite my ownership of this bike proving to be a nightmare, it was my dream bike and I still have a lot of fondness for it, strange how they get you eh.

I guess the problem if it is electrical might be a bitch to find. People think of Harleys as agricultural, but they are just as high tech as any other new bike: immobiliser, EFI and all that palaver.

Want to do a deal on a Triumph Scrambler? (after yours is fixed.....)

are they lending you a bike to use in the meantime?

[Banditbandit]

I bought a brand new bike in March 2010. To cut a long story short, the blasted thing has let me down on over 30 occasions. The dealer is some 350k away so getting it back to them is somewhat of a hassle, however, it has been returned to them twice, the latest visit has had it sitting in their workshop for 4 weeks and all they appear to have done is change the battery again because they can't find whatever the electrical problem is.

Sooo, having endured a hopelessly unreliable bike for nearly 10 months, 3 batteries and no guarantee it will ever start again once it has left the workshop, what are my options?

I'm not from NZ so the consumer protection laws (if there are any) are a mystery to me. I'm about to have words with the manager of the dealership but I would be better armed to do battle if I had an inkling of where I stood legally.

I'm not asking for Free lawyership here but if somebody can give me an idea of where I stand and where I start the inevitable battle for justice, it would be very gratefully appreciated.

Thanks Clever ones :niceone:


As an update for those of you kind enough to follow this sorry tale... I have just spoken to the manager of the dealership. He seems to be a reasonable chap and I explained the history of the bike including the breakdown on day one of ownership!

He was horrified at the saga and has decided to keep the bike for further investigation in consultation with the manufacturers and will not be returning it to me until he can guarantee that it will not break down with the same fault again.

If that assurance can not be given I will not pick the bike up and will pursue compensation on a legal basis.

Either-way, my time is at an end with this bike but I wouldn't dream of selling it on until I am satisfied that the problem has been resolved, even if fixed I will still take a huge hit on deprecation but if that means closure for me then so be it.

Despite my ownership of this bike proving to be a nightmare, it was my dream bike and I still have a lot of fondness for it, strange how they get you eh.


You must have liked the bike when you bought it ... and it's your dream bike .. so ...

Have you tried Googling the problem to see if others have had it ...

Take it to another service place? If it's electrical, possibly an auto-electriocian ? Maybe the dealers your working witgh are lost .. but someone else might be able to help ...

If someone else can fix it maybe your dealer will front up the cost ?

(PS. If it's the BMW, get it fixed - if it's the Harley, get a refund ... )

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yes it is the XR although my particular problems do not seem to be common with the model (from what I've read) so I'm not about to bag the model as such, in fact this is my fourth Harley and I've never had a bit of trouble with the others and it is a great ride (when it's running). There comes a time however when enough is enough, being stranded everywhere soon becomes a chore.

Dude...they've got 24/7 road side assist anyway! You should've been told that when you purchased it?

[yachtie10]

Dude...they've got 24/7 road side assist anyway! You should've been told that when you purchased it?

If this had been used each time i bet the fault would have been fixed by now as picking it up 30 times would be getting expensive.

Best of luck I hope HD/dealership comes to the party as it sounds it should

[BMWST?]

Dude...they've got 24/7 road side assist anyway! You should've been told that when you purchased it?
even tho crash not very satisfactory to ring them every other ride is it?.
MArtyBabe
You explained it well,i reckon you tell them now you dont want it back...but want either a new bike or your money back.You dont need a lawyer yet,just say you have had enough and under your rights per the CGA you want your money back or new bike

[martybabe]

You must have liked the bike when you bought it ... so ...

Have you tried Googling the problem to see if others have had it ...

Take it to another service place? If it's electrical, possibly an auto-electriocian ? Maybe the dealers your working witgh are lost .. but someone else might be able to help ...

If someone else can fix it maybe your dealer will front up the cost ?

(PS. If it's the BMW, get it fixed - if it's the Harley, get a refund ... )

I loved the bike, it's a great ride when it's running. As for the rest of your comments, all being looked into. Infact there is a specific forum for these bikes where I have relayed the problem and some dude got really upset that I dared suggest that my bike was unreliable, man we all get so precious about our choice of bike eh. Anyway thanks for your suggestions :niceone:


#11 great martybabe - it's nice to hear of shop owners who "appear to be a reasonable chap" and seem to want to do the right thing by you. Hope it all works out well. And yes, I can understand that there might still be a nostalgic attraction to something even if it turns out to be a lemon!
All the best for the outcome.

Thanks Princess, just sent him a history of the bikes problems by e-mail, as requested. Reading it back it's astonishing that I haven't set fire to the bloomin thing...but I still likes iittt! I must be some kind of mental eh.



Want to do a deal on a Triumph Scrambler? (after yours is fixed.....)

are they lending you a bike to use in the meantime?

No thanks but I like the optimism and no, no loaner but I couldn't be arsed to do the 700k round trip to pick up a loaner :msn-wink:


Dude...they've got 24/7 road side assist anyway! You should've been told that when you purchased it?

Yes Pete and I've used them but frankly sometimes it's just easier and quicker to call home for a jumpstart, I don't travel very far on it any more, I daren't. Shout out for Harley Assist though, they're pretty good.

[Sensei]

I see things pretty clearly when this stuff happens ..... Either they reufund your money or replace it with another new one . I mean to say who wants a brand new bike repaired repeatedly ??? . Thats why you buy new isn't it , albe it that some may have the odd glich but very rarely .. The bike must have aleast 1-2ys Warranty so there should not be any trouble with getting this matter resloved quickly . All the best dude

[Crasherfromwayback]

even tho crash not very satisfactory to ring them every other ride is it?.



Far from it mate. But I was simply worried he mightn't have known about it! It's still good to be able to have them come and collect you foc though. But obviously far better if you never need to!



Yes Pete and I've used them but frankly sometimes it's just easier and quicker to call home for a jumpstart, I don't travel very far on it any more, I daren't. Shout out for Harley Assist though, they're pretty good.

I hear ya! Best of luck getting it sorted mate!

[Owl]

Infact there is a specific forum for these bikes where I have relayed the problem and some dude got really upset that I dared suggest that my bike was unreliable, man we all get so precious about our choice of bike eh.

American site?

Did they call you a hater?:lol:

[Big Dave]

Happens with machines sometime hey. Don't get emotional is right - fix it or ferk it off.

We had a pretty expensive mercedes that the insurance company wrote off after it fried its third ECM.

I reckon it be something simple. Coils. Every time I've had a bike with a mystery electrical faulty it's been the ferkin' coils.
Some Buells had bad connections near the muffler that drained the battery too.

[Shadows]

Sounds very unusual. Never had any electrical issues with any HDs - two of those have been XRs.

People I have spoken with who have washed them with waterblasters, on the other hand!

Not suggesting that you have, of course.

Must have been a Friday bike.

[rustic101]

I'm not from NZ so the consumer protection laws (if there are any) are a mystery to me. :

www.consumer.org.nz

Another good site for most things and or links to others..

[pete376403]

Another KBer (digitdion) had his bikes purchase price refunded after repeated breakdowns. IIRC the small claims court was involved. PM him and get the story.

[warewolf]

Ah pete beat me to it. This has been discussed before. One thing I did remember was that in some areas there's separate motor vehicles legislation that overrides/complements the Consumer Guarantees Act or some such, simply because it is such a large area many things for vehicles were specifically spelled out in how they are handled.

Possibly I may be thinking of the motor vehicle disputes tribunal?? Used instead of the small claims court?? dunno. It was all explained in digitdion's threads anyway.

[Paul in NZ]

I'd start with the dealer, gather all the records and doccumentation of the fault as best you can, make an appointment and go explain it to them firmly and straight up. Take someone reputable with you. Dont get angry or abusive just state the facts as you see them and then email them the minutes of the meeting and get them to agree that this was an accurate record of the meeting.

99% of the time the HD dealer would be very helpful.

If you get no joy, go up the food chain and only pull out the lawyer / rights thing as a last resort.

[martybabe]

I'd start with the dealer, gather all the records and doccumentation of the fault as best you can, make an appointment and go explain it to them firmly and straight up. Take someone reputable with you. Dont get angry or abusive just state the facts as you see them and then email them the minutes of the meeting and get them to agree that this was an accurate record of the meeting.

99% of the time the HD dealer would be very helpful.

If you get no joy, go up the food chain and only pull out the lawyer / rights thing as a last resort.

Thank you all for your input and advice, I'm a bit pushed for time to answer you all individually but I have read and digested it all, cheers guys.

Paul in NZ

Pretty much done what you've suggested there by e-mail and phone and the response has been very positive from the dealer, I can't give out many details because I think that would be unfair at this point but thus far the owner of the franchise appears to be trying his very best to resolve the matter and he is aware that I will have no choice but to bring in the legals but only after he has been given every opportunity to sort it.

I'm all about 'fair go' and to be fair, he seems as horrified as me by the bikes sad history, so there you go, in his hands for the moment, we shall see what the next week brings. Having said that though, one more break down and I shall use everything at my disposal to get my money back, you've got to draw a line somewhere.

Cheers guys, I shall update as and when I hear anything. :niceone:

[Gremlin]

What a nice change... Owner gives dealer a chance to rectify... Dealer wants to sort for Owner...

Makes me want to hug someone :lol:

[Movistar]

I'm all about 'fair go' and to be fair, he seems as horrified as me by the bikes sad history, so there you go, in his hands for the moment, we shall see what the next week brings. Having said that though, one more break down and I shall use everything at my disposal to get my money back, you've got to draw a line somewhere.

Cheers guys, I shall update as and when I hear anything. :niceone:


So far Mart, I reckon you've done the right thing.

Trust me, electrical problems can be a real nightmare to sort, I have had my share of these issues to sort out with brand new cars for many years, unfortunately, once you know what the solution is, it all seems so blindingly obvious...

Find out if the dealer is an MTA member, if so, they have an excellent, free mediation service.

I'm sure your patience is appreciated by the dealer, but keep the pressure on.
You are the customer after all, and it is your right to have a product that is reliable.

That's what you paid for.

It would not hurt for you to make HD aware also, the will have a customer assistance line and this will make sure the details are logged and followed up by them.
The dealer is probably dealing with the HD technical advisers, and I don't have first hand experience of their customer relationship policy, but some manufacturers technical departments are pathetic at dealing directly with the customers.
If you go through their customer assistance team, they generally will hound the technical guys to make sure things are progressing.

You can always hound the dealer for a loan bike of similar or equivalent type, no doubt there will be no requirement under the warranty from HD to provide this, but out of goodwill the dealer may come to the party.

Keep me in the loop Mart, as I said, I have been through this many times over recent years, and while it is frustrating, it all depends on how the dealer and manufacturer handle it...

[martybabe]

So far Mart, I reckon you've done the right thing.

Trust me, electrical problems can be a real nightmare to sort, I have had my share of these issues to sort out with brand new cars for many years, unfortunately, once you know what the solution is, it all seems so blindingly obvious...

Find out if the dealer is an MTA member, if so, they have an excellent, free mediation service.

I'm sure your patience is appreciated by the dealer, but keep the pressure on.
You are the customer after all, and it is your right to have a product that is reliable.

That's what you paid for.

It would not hurt for you to make HD aware also, the will have a customer assistance line and this will make sure the details are logged and followed up by them.
The dealer is probably dealing with the HD technical advisers, and I don't have first hand experience of their customer relationship policy, but some manufacturers technical departments are pathetic at dealing directly with the customers.
If you go through their customer assistance team, they generally will hound the technical guys to make sure things are progressing.

You can always hound the dealer for a loan bike of similar or equivalent type, no doubt there will be no requirement under the warranty from HD to provide this, but out of goodwill the dealer may come to the party.

Keep me in the loop Mart, as I said, I have been through this many times over recent years, and while it is frustrating, it all depends on how the dealer and manufacturer handle it...

Cheers Paul, I may be in touch if I don't get satisfaction soon.

As an update,I was informed the bike was running fine with the third battery in it, just like when it was replaced the second time,sigh. So one of the dealers took it home to see if there would be any problems the next morning. Guess what, I've heard nothing since, I'll bet ya $20 it didn't start for the return journey :msn-wink:. Part of the problem is convincing them that there is a problem, so whatever they tell me, they can keep it for a week or two, whether they use it or not, I can almost guarantee the 'problem' will return .

[Pussy]

Sorry to hear you're having problems, Mart!

You still got the GSX 1400 to take care of your motorcycle fix?

[martybabe]

Sorry to hear you're having problems, Mart!

You still got the GSX 1400 to take care of your motorcycle fix?

Aye it is a major shame, she's a hoot to ride till she breaks down again. No the Gsx was sold, I'm getting a daily fix on a beemer now, much more my type of bike, just such a pleasure to ride for miles and miles and miles :niceone:

[pritch]

Marty

Just came across this thread. Sorry to read your sad story. You did mention that there was a problem, but I didn't realise it was ongoing. It's a shame because otherwise that's a very nice bike.

[martybabe]

Marty

Just came across this thread. Sorry to read your sad story. You did mention that there was a problem, but I didn't realise it was ongoing. It's a shame because otherwise that's a very nice bike.

Cheers Ron, daft as it sounds I'm still happy with my choice of model, the XR1200 is exactly what I wanted. It just seems that my particular one is a stubborn unreliable son of a bitch bastard :msn-wink:

[Movistar]

Cheers Paul, I may be in touch if I don't get satisfaction soon.

As an update,I was informed the bike was running fine with the third battery in it, just like when it was replaced the second time,sigh. So one of the dealers took it home to see if there would be any problems the next morning. Guess what, I've heard nothing since, I'll bet ya $20 it didn't start for the return journey :msn-wink:. Part of the problem is convincing them that there is a problem, so whatever they tell me, they can keep it for a week or two, whether they use it or not, I can almost guarantee the 'problem' will return .


If it's had more than three batteries, it's not the battery that's at fault...but it could be...

Reminds me of VE Commodores. I lost count of how many batteries we charged and/or replaced and how much research we did on behalf of 'The General' to find out that the technology and calculations (and I mean an amazing amount) that go into determining how much current or voltage was being pumped back into the battery, and when, by the alternator that is controlled by the ECU was not causing the fault.
Nor was it the emense amount of electronic wizardy that drew current from the battery until all systems went to sleep, it was purely because the type of battery being used was not right (this is in very simplistic terms!).
On top of that, all dealers were sent a $1000 battery charger that all of a sudden became a "mandatory special tool', which turned out to be unnecessary.

Now, I don't know if other owners are experiencing the same problem, it would appear not.

Lets hope they are looking further than the battery for an answer...

[martybabe]

If it's had more than three batteries, it's not the battery that's at fault...but it could be...

Reminds me of VE Commodores. I lost count of how many batteries we charged and/or replaced and how much research we did on behalf of 'The General' to find out that the technology and calculations (and I mean an amazing amount) that go into determining how much current or voltage was being pumped back into the battery, and when, by the alternator that is controlled by the ECU was not causing the fault.
Nor was it the emense amount of electronic wizardy that drew current from the battery until all systems went to sleep, it was purely because the type of battery being used was not right (this is in very simplistic terms!).
On top of that, all dealers were sent a $1000 battery charger that all of a sudden became a "mandatory special tool', which turned out to be unnecessary.

Now, I don't know if other owners are experiencing the same problem, it would appear not.

Lets hope they are looking further than the battery for an answer...

Indeed they are looking further...As e-mails fly between the dealer, Harley and me, It would appear that the Technicians from Harley are pointing the finger squarely at a faulty relay. All involved are confident that this is the cause of my woes. I however remain pessimistically hopeful :msn-wink:

[scracha]

Indeed they are looking further...As e-mails fly between the dealer, Harley and me, It would appear that the Technicians from Harley are pointing the finger squarely at a faulty relay. All involved are confident that this is the cause of my woes. I however remain pessimistically hopeful :msn-wink:

I'm just curios...are they giving you a courtesy bike every time it fucks out? I mean, if this were a brand new car..........

[pete376403]

Surely use of an ammeter would be able to pinpoint the current drain from the battery when the ignition is off. Disconnect items downstream of the battery (even just by pulling fuses) until the flow of current stops. The fault lies in that particular circuit. Electrics are a piece of piss but they do require methodical and logical troubleshooting (and a detailed wiring diagram helps)

Off the cuff guess - wiring has been pinched and there is a short to the frame somewhere. As it is intermittent I'd further guess its somewhere around the steering head, so it only occurs at a certain steering angle (such as full lock when the ignition is off/steering locked)

[martybabe]

I'm just curios...are they giving you a courtesy bike every time it fucks out? I mean, if this were a brand new car..........

It would be a nice gesture but no, if it had been a local dealer I would have made this more of an issue but I really can't be arsed to travel a 700k return journey with a crappy loan bike when I've got another bike at home anyway.


Surely use of an ammeter would be able to pinpoint the current drain from the battery when the ignition is off. Disconnect items downstream of the battery (even just by pulling fuses) until the flow of current stops. The fault lies in that particular circuit. Electrics are a piece of piss but they do require methodical and logical troubleshooting (and a detailed wiring diagram helps)

Off the cuff guess - wiring has been pinched and there is a short to the frame somewhere. As it is intermittent I'd further guess its somewhere around the steering head, so it only occurs at a certain steering angle (such as full lock when the ignition is off/steering locked)

I know nothing of automotive electric systems but to me. the battery is not getting charged and or the battery is losing it's charge by shorting out somewhere. I wouldn't have thought it would be that much of a problem to trace the issue? clearly I am wrong.

[Movistar]

I know nothing of automotive electric systems but to me. the battery is not getting charged and or the battery is losing it's charge by shorting out somewhere. I wouldn't have thought it would be that much of a problem to trace the issue? clearly I am wrong.

Lets hope for a positive outcome Mart.
It's a bloody nice bike, as has already been said, and once it is cured of it's evil, will be yours to enjoy again without the niggling sensation you must get every time you go to start it!

Once you have it back, cured, we will celebrate with a monumental victory ride (of less than 200 km's so it doesn't run out of fuel :shutup:)

[Usarka]

I'm just curios...are they giving you a courtesy bike every time it fucks out? I mean, if this were a brand new car..........


It would be a nice gesture but no, if it had been a local dealer I would have made this more of an issue but I really can't be arsed to travel a 700k return journey with a crappy loan bike when I've got another bike at home anyway.

There is a provision in the CGA for consequential loss.........

But if they are cooperating and if there is light at the end of the tunnel (cross fingers) then one needs to weigh up the pros and cons of starting a shitfight (which i reckon you've balanced quite well with since starting this thread).

I hope it's a faulty relay and you get the bitch back in working order stat! :wari:

[kilgh]

You are being very patient with these guys. In their very minor defence, it can be difficult to trace intermittant electrical faults. However as it can only be a certain amount of parts that could be going wrong any decent electrician would replace them one by one to see if the problem resolves. That's what they should be doing right now. Replace, test, replace, test.... Seriously are these guys qualified mechanics?

Don't forget if it all goes wrong again that a new series of "Target" and "Fair Go" will be filming. Possibly as we speak. And HD does not want the bad publicity going nationwide let alone the dealership.

TVNZ and TV3 websites will have links I'm sure.

[martybabe]

Once you have it back, cured, we will celebrate with a monumental victory ride (of less than 200 km's so it doesn't run out of fuel :shutup:)

:bleh: Sad but true, even 200k is pushing it, the beemer however is good for 400 ish ks, so book your time off I'm game.

I did read recently in a back to back test between a gsxr1000rrrr and the beemer rs that the BMW was superior to the Suzuki in terms of performance, handling, comfort and fuel range! Personally I can't see how they reached that conclusion, I don't think the Beemer is that comfortable :laugh:

Sweet, ride soon :msn-wink:



There is a provision in the CGA for consequential loss.........

But if they are cooperating and if there is light at the end of the tunnel (cross fingers) then one needs to weigh up the pros and cons of starting a shitfight (which i reckon you've balanced quite well with since starting this thread).

I hope it's a faulty relay and you get the bitch back in working order stat! :wari:

Cheers mate, I think I am being as reasonable as humanly possible, 5-6weeks in bike hospital though is testing my patience a tad. :niceone:




Don't forget if it all goes wrong again that a new series of "Target" and "Fair Go" will be filming. Possibly as we speak. And HD does not want the bad publicity going nationwide let alone the dealership.

TVNZ and TV3 websites will have links I'm sure.

A bit early for calling on those guys services I feel but don't get me wrong, if it comes to a punch up I shall use every darned weapon at my disposal, hence this thread. Gather all options in my arsenal and hit them with a blitzkrieg. I do sincerely hope it doesn't come to that though.

[Movistar]

:bleh: Sad but true, even 200k is pushing it, the beemer however is good for 400 ish ks, so book your time off I'm game.

I did read recently in a back to back test between a gsxr1000rrrr and the beemer rs that the BMW was superior to the Suzuki in terms of performance, handling, comfort and fuel range! Personally I can't see how they reached that conclusion, I don't think the Beemer is that comfortable :laugh:

Sweet, ride soon :msn-wink:

They probably got two out of four right!:niceone: (looks like I'll be the one running out of fuel...)

[pritch]

I however remain pessimistically hopeful

Pessimistically optimistic? So how would you describe the fluid level in the glass?
Enquiring minds would like to know... :whistle:

[martybabe]

Pessimistically optimistic? So how would you describe the fluid level in the glass?
Enquiring minds would like to know... :whistle:

The fluid in the glass is obviously... Emptily full :msn-wink:

[BoristheBiter]

The fluid in the glass is obviously... Emptily full :msn-wink:

it was a good job i read the whole thread as i would have guesses it was a BMW not the HD.

Friends of mine had the exact same fault, new battery just dies, goes well when running. Turned out after they replaced nearly every relay that it was the computer.

Once that was changed there was never a problem. didn't want to change the CPU as this was the most expensive part.

Hope you get it sorted.

[martybabe]

Friends of mine had the exact same fault, new battery just dies, goes well when running. Turned out after they replaced nearly every relay that it was the computer.

Once that was changed there was never a problem. didn't want to change the CPU as this was the most expensive part.

Hope you get it sorted.

Well thank you for that, at last someone with anecdotal evidence of a similar problem. I don't have a clue if that's 'the' problem but I will definitely pass this post on to the dealer for His information . Ultimately, if that proves to be the cause, he can't say he's never heard of such a thing can he.

To be fair the problem he's having is they replaced the battery and the bike is running Ok, as expected. It won't be until the battery has run out of newness and vigor that the fault will re-occur, so replacing electricky bits to see if the fault goes away by process of elimination is not an option at the moment.

Cheers again for that, have some blingy.:niceone:

[Movistar]

The fluid in the glass is obviously... Emptily full :msn-wink:


...or halfway...

[pritch]

The fluid in the glass is obviously... Emptily full :msn-wink:

Well, with any luck it's not fully empty.

A toast to your eventual success in vinho tinto:drinkup:

[ynot slow]

Man just as well ya got a brewery nearby.

Many people would be less tolerant than you,if it gets fixed hope the company give you a few pesos,and also hope Harley recompense the dealer for said pesos,not really dealers fault when this shite happens,unless they're complete nob ends in workshop.

Mate had similar problems with his Holden Crewcab ute,he bought it new,needed a new diff at about 110000km,just out of warranty,result to him $2500 lighter bank account,funny thing Holden NZ didn't want a bar of it,they said it's isolated repair,until mate said "I knew you'd say that-have a look at these"and gave them several pages of emails from a holden drivers site from aussie.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Pessimistically optimistic? So how would you describe the fluid level in the glass?
Enquiring minds would like to know... :whistle:
optimist: glass half full
pessimist: glass half empty
engineer: that glass is of inappropriate size to contain the fluid specified for containment. Here is my 48 page proposal, and powerpoint presentation, about how we can develop, using your money, a world class, water containment device (or "WCD" for short) which will contain precisely the amount of fluid that you have. Only $50,000 to start.

[Buyasta]

optimist: glass half full
pessimist: glass half empty
engineer: that glass is of inappropriate size to contain the fluid specified for containment. Here is my 48 page proposal, and powerpoint presentation, about how we can develop, using your money, a world class, water containment device (or "WCD" for short) which will contain precisely the amount of fluid that you have. Only $50,000 to start.

Don't be silly, this (http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1997-01-30/) is what an engineer says.

[Gerbs]

optimist: glass half full
pessimist: glass half empty
engineer: that glass is of inappropriate size to contain the fluid specified for containment. Here is my 48 page proposal, and powerpoint presentation, about how we can develop, using your money, a world class, water containment device (or "WCD" for short) which will contain precisely the amount of fluid that you have. Only $50,000 to start.

optimist: glass half full
pessimist: glass half empty
realist: knows if he hangs around, he'll have to wash the bloody glass.

[avgas]

optimist: glass half full
pessimist: glass half empty
engineer: that glass is of inappropriate size to contain the fluid specified for containment. Here is my 48 page proposal, and powerpoint presentation, about how we can develop, using your money, a world class, water containment device (or "WCD" for short) which will contain precisely the amount of fluid that you have. Only $50,000 to start.
Hah
You assume engineers work
You must be in management