Brian Tamaki a Bishop!

[Ms Piggy]

Now how does that work?!
(a) Be appointed as Bishop of the church you created.
and
(b) Charge $55 a ticket for the "privelage" of seeing this man become a Bishop of the curch he created!??

If you can handel here's a link http://www.destinychurch.org.nz/ ..that photo of him seems very airbrushed don't ya think?

p.s. Sorry if this has already been done, I've been out of the loop for the last few days with exams but, I just HAD to bring this up with one and all.

[crashe]

yep he sold tickets to 3,000 of his mob to see him become a self apointed bishop...
so time to get the calculator out.... brb.. ok done it..

3000 people
x 55.00
$165,000.00

Now that aint a bad bit of earnings for a half a day...

Cost of hiring the venue... probably not a lot.

[Big Dave]

If you can handel

I could be Bach-ing up the wrong tree, but leave the good Bishop alone.

Since i saw the light and founded 'DAVE' a new religion based on the worship of motorcycles, computers and sex with tall, blue eyed brunettes, I understand the pressures he must face.

I have been through the ranks of Bishop, Pope and God in my own church, and I know it is not easy for Brian.

I'm happy now in my role as Cardinal. And as Brian will now attest, when you get to his station - You may kiss my ring.

[John]

I could be Bach-ing up the wrong tree, but leave the good Bishop alone.

Since i saw the light and founded 'DAVE' a new religion based on the worship of motorcycles, computers and sex with tall, blue eyed brunettes, I understand the pressures he must face.

I have been through the ranks of Bishop, Pope and God in my own church, and I know it is not easy for Brian.

I'm happy now in my role as Cardinal. And as Brian will now attest, when you get to his station - You may kiss my ring.
LMAO !!! Good one dave can I join :D?

[Big Dave]

LMAO !!! Good one dave can I join :D?


'll send you through the 'Dave-olite' application forms as soon as I get the religious tax exemption and registered charity status.

Meantime, continue riding your motorcycle, play with your computer and keep your hands off my wife.

[Joni]

'll send you through the 'Dave-olite' application forms as soon as I get the religious tax exemption and registered charity status.

Meantime, continue riding your motorcycle, play with your computer and keep your hands off my wife.

Hehe you're funny.... :rofl:

:clap:

[Indiana_Jones]

I don't see what the big who-ha is about, they're adults, they can decide if they want to pay $55 for shite. The church has always been the same.

-Indy

[John]

I don't see what the big who-ha is about, they're adults, they can decide if they want to pay $55 for shite. The church has always been the same.

-Indy
Look at his minority followers - (sorry to be blunt) maori, uneducated, on the dole.

This is what a cult is.

[Fart]

He is laughing all the way to his Swiss bank account. How else does he live such an extravagent lifestyle?

[Indiana_Jones]

He is laughing all the way to his Swiss bank account. How else does he live such an extravagent lifestyle?

I bet he is. He's gets the money because some people are not very smart? :no:

-Indy

[MikeL]

And he wouldn't admit it but by appointing himself a bishop he has done to the institution of the Christian Church what he claims the CU bill has done to the institution of marriage...

[Hitcher]

I saw the header for this thread and thought it was a Tui poster.

[Sensei]

165k plus 10% of their wages . Fucken dumbarse's. Plus all this money is TAX free as its going to a Church ." Robin Hood" not " Just Robin Them " :weird: :nono:

[StoneChucker]

Man do I hate Bishop( :rofl: ) Brian Tamaki. Why? Because he has a great money making scheme and ran with it. I have no scheme, and didn't run with it. I have to give it to him, he's struck a goldmine.

Just incase you were'nt quite sure about donating to the "cause", this is at the top of the donations page:

Sow now into this ministry
“………?.he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully?
2Corinthians 9:6

How convenient :clap:

While I'm envious of the way he made money, fast, I don't agree with the cult he's running. And, thats all it is, a cult. He's preying on disadvantaged people, alot of whom just don't know any better. They think that by giving 10% or more of their earnings to Destiny, they will reap the rewards and have a rich life.

Why not just stop giving the church 10% of your fecking salary! :weird: :weird:

I hate him with such a passion, and feel so very sorry for the cult followers who are blinded by his smoothe talking shyte.

Regards,
The Vicar of Welly

[Skyryder]

Tamiki sold himself short. Surprised he didn't call himself Pope. Took a look at his website. He talks about how excited he is in what God is doing in this wonderfull country (NZ) and goes on and says we are A NATION UNDER SIEGE.

That people listen and believe this pillock I find more disturbing than anything he has to say.

Skyryder

[Hitcher]

The Vicar of Welly
Live dangerously. Promote yourself to Bishop. I'd pay $55 to watch somebody kiss your ring...

[idb]

Tamiki sold himself short. Surprised he didn't call himself Pope.

That's next Saturday night, 7.30pm, tickets $95.00 and selling fast.
Available through Ticketek or the booking office at the Aotea Centre.

[Big Dave]

I don't see what the big who-ha is about,

What religion is he the head of?

[Sutage]

What religion is he the head of?

Naziism by the sound of it

[MrMelon]

Next we'll see he's appointed himself pope, and then possibly god.

[Virago]

What religion is he the head of?
Destiny Church NZ.

They've just launched their own political party too. Aiming it at the maori vote, they are contesting all the maori seats. Interestingly though, they have aligned themselves with National, who want to abolish the maori seats. :weird:

They also want to cut taxes, but impose a tithing rule on their own church members. The poor get poorer, but the church gets richer..... .

These guys are dangerous, wanting to impose laws based on their own interpretation of the bible.

[Big Dave]

Destiny Church NZ.

They've just launched their own political party too. Aiming it at the maori vote, they are contesting all the maori seats. Interestingly though, they have aligned themselves with National, who want to abolish the maori seats. :weird:

They also want to cut taxes, but impose a tithing rule on their own church members. The poor get poorer, but the church gets richer..... .

These guys are dangerous, wanting to impose laws based on their own interpretation of the bible.


thanks - but see my earlier post - i meant 'who is the big 'who-ha'? - like in the flintstone's 'grand poohbah'.

you had to be there.....

[Jackrat]

One of the drivers I work with moved from the BOP to AK to be closer to the leach tamaki.He now struggles to pay his rent an feed his family while he gives part of his wages to this fraud.
Some people are just to stupid for words. :weird:
I see on his web site a section on how to cast out demons,he should be bloody carefull none of his drones don't apply it to him :weird: again
:weird: :weird: :weird: :weird: :weird: :weird: :weird:

[Virago]

thanks - but see my earlier post - i meant 'who is the big 'who-ha'? - like in the flintstone's 'grand poohbah'.

you had to be there.....
Ah, read the earlier posts first? :slap:

[jaybee180]

........ and sex with tall, blue eyed brunettes,


Shit - does that mean that redheads are out? Coz then I can't join! BUGGA!

[The Preacher]

Destiny Church NZ.

They've just launched their own political party too. Aiming it at the maori vote, they are contesting all the maori seats. Interestingly though, they have aligned themselves with National, who want to abolish the maori seats.

Actually they have announced 42 candiates covering all seats

[Big Dave]

........ and sex with tall, blue eyed brunettes,


Shit - does that mean that redheads are out? Coz then I can't join! BUGGA!

I perceive the establishment of diverse sects within the cult.
Like protestants and catholics.
If he's a she - then you are the foundation member of the 'fantasy sect' and a private audience with 'the cardinal' is always available - if he's a he, then you have no place in part 3 of this damn religion.

[Ms Piggy]

Choice turnout for The Chosen, 19 June 2005
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3318440a10,00.html

Sarah Stuart took a pew at yesterday's ordination of Bishop Brian Tamaki after talking to him and his wife, Pastor Hannah, about faith, fishing and road rage.

It is 20 minutes into the ordination of Bishop Brian Tamaki, in a stadium snug with ballgowns, bling and snakeskin shoes.

The first tithing has already been called for (eftpos available), the kapa haka group has chanted about "evil doers" and "perilous times" and the shop has been doing a roaring trade in Bibles commemorating the day ($95-$125). Within minutes of the former forestry worker being handed his new gold staff and Destiny Church ceremonial cloak, the DVD of the two-hour extravaganza will be on sale for $25.

Suddenly the giant screen above a stage filled with lights, choirs and a rock band beams a close-up of Bishop Brian on stage, his hands clasped, a tiny beatific smile playing across that deep tan.

"Man, that man is handsome," a young Pacific Islander in sharp suit and tie says from the row behind. The Tamaki empire couldn't agree more.

"Brian's a very attractive man and that's half the problem," his wife, Pastor Hannah Tamaki, newly blonde and with considerable bling of her own, said earlier. "He looks too good, dresses well, has got a house, a beautiful boat. People think a man of God shouldn't look like that."

Bishop Brian, 47, "humble" and "deeply honoured" by the office his church is bestowing upon him, is only too mindful of his image issues. "I'm aware that I'm rewriting, reshaping the face of religion," he said before the ceremony. "God has allowed me to . . . rescript some wrong traditional religious thoughts."

So if that means gold and diamond cross cufflinks for the ordination, if it means a new Destiny Church line of clothes (Integrity Man) and constant queries about his hair ("People ask him 'What product do you use, pastor?"' Hannah reveals), then that is God's will. Bishop Brian is being ordained by God, he says, because he is a man chosen for this time in history.

"I've changed a whole culture of people's dress in my generation." He preaches good dress sense because when Christ enters your life, it should change your external world too. So here we are in the week-old TelstraClear Pacific Stadium in Manukau City, 2000-plus, $55-a-ticket paying Destiny believers singing and dancing, pictures of the celebration beaming out live on the internet.

In the style of Scientology (Tom Cruise) and Kabbalah (Madonna), Destiny has its stars. Well, Bull Allen is supposed to be here somewhere and the Maori Queen was asked but pulled out at the last minute. Willie Jackson was invited on Friday, calling the bishop on his cellphone which rings to Smoke on the Water.

It is the seventh anniversary of the Destiny movement in Auckland, 26 years since Bishop Brian left his Pall Malls and Lion beer to become a born-again Christian. Last night the Destiny political party launched its election campaign which the bishop predicts will see them win more than 5 per cent of the vote and "squeeze a few candidates in".

Despite the political ambition, the mantle of bishop seems to be weighing on Bishop Brian. This weekend it was a more self-effacing man who asked for wisdom and knowledge from God as his forehead was rubbed with oil.

Unlike the old, flashy, Harley-riding Pastor Brian, Bishop Brian claims to be naturally shy, to dislike the posse of bodyguards. He doesn't much like the flashing lights at his church events, but his young followers do, and he says the image of him leading Destiny Church marches on his motorbike was simply a matter of timing. "I was running late and the bike was quicker."

He admits he was a "terrible" preacher when he established his first church in Te Awamutu; a slight dyslexia and a lack of education meant he stumbled over his words. "But I bought a thesaurus and a dictionary and I went to Bible college." Interestingly, says Bishop Brian, other religious leaders have also had trouble speaking. Moses and Jeremiah, for example. "It's a common problem."

Bishop Brian loves a biblical analogy. His journey to this new ordination is like David's journey smoting bears and lions before he reached Goliath. Even the concrete stadium, site of his ordination, looks like "Noah's Ark".

Quick as he is to quote a verse, Bishop Brian is less sure of the spiritual leaders he admires. Jesus Christ, sure. Martin Luther King is "inspirational". "Help me Hannah," he says.

"Billy Graham?" she offers.

Ah yes. "His integrity is intact. That's what I want to do at the end of my days, be a Christian statesman who arrived there his character intact."

Hannah's also helpful on the demons the bishop must fight. "Road rage," she says. "The temptation to go fishing when he should be at a meeting." "T-bone steak," the bishop adds. And shopping. "He's worse than me," says Hannah.

And therein lies the problem for New Zealand's newest bishop. His overt affluence is built on the tithing of his 7000-strong, predominantly Maori and Pacific Island congregation. How does that fit with a Christian message?

"Selflessness has nothing to do with the abundance of your possessions," he says. "Mother Teresa chooses poverty - that's her call . . . There is nothing wrong or evil about possessions, it's the heart conditioned towards those possessions (that is evil)."

After glowing speeches from his evangelical friends, a videoed message from his "spiritual father", Bishop Eddie Long of the New Birth Church in the US, and a lot of sparkly gospel singing, the new Bishop Brian holds a press conference. He wants the whole nation to know God, and his mission, he says, is to restore credibility to the Church. Of his critics who say it is simply arrogance to ordain yourself a bishop of your Church? Well, it's done with God's authority and he had to be brave about it.

"This, I believe, is the first time a Pentecostal movement has accepted, finally, the bishop role," he says. "They have been talking about it for a number of years but no one had the courage to say . . . when it fits, wear it."

And so he does, in cloak and staff and cufflinks. There is no bishop's mitre. Perhaps it would ruin the hair.

[Big Dave]

Actually they have announced 42 candiates covering all seats

I've seen some of those 'candidates' - some of them have arses that would need 3 seats.

[What?]

I think Brian Tamaki is inspirational. In fact, I'm thinking of starting a whole new religion in which Robert Plant will be the messiah (he foresaw the Internet when he wrote the words "...many times I've wondered how much there is to know..."
Obviously, the net itself will be the deity here, and as decent servers cost money, the devotees will have to donate 25% of their income to the church. Should be very lucrative.
Any of you guys want to be a bishop?

[El Dopa]

Looks like we're all agreed on one thing then....
























We like bashing the bishop.

[Cynic]

and he calls himself a bishop...apparently I'm the choirboy master... :)

[WINJA]

165k plus 10% of their wages . Fucken dumbarse's. Plus all this money is TAX free as its going to a Church ." Robin Hood" not " Just Robin Them " :weird: :nono:
THE 10% IS MEANT TO HELP YOUR FELLOW MAN , NOT ONE GREEDY SELF CENTRED MAN. CHRISTIANS ARE STUPID LETTING FUCKWITS MISLEAD THEM

[idb]

CHRISTIANS ARE STUPID LETTING FUCKWITS MISLEAD THEM
Aw, jeez Winja :slap: !!!!

[SPman]

Any of you guys want to be a bishop?

Hell, yes! :devil2:

[Gremlin]

The saddest thing about the whole circus is that those who need money the most, are the ones giving it away to it.

Sure, they should have at least tried in school (yeah I know about the vicous cycle etc), but it always seems to be the poor that are getting poorer, but thats why I guess they are the poor... :oi-grr:

It obviously has no feelings living a life of extravagance of the backs of the poor who struggle to live from day to day (partly a budgeting problem, I know)...

Sad nonetheless...

[MikeL]

Any of you guys want to be a bishop?

No thanks, not my style. But perhaps your church could be innovative and have knights as well. I'm sick of being a pawn...

[Paul in NZ]

I don't wanna be a Bishop as the hours suck but are there any openings for "Inquisitors of the Faith" or Censors?

I mean I know a lot about temptation and stuff after years of field work.. Shame to waste all that experience!

Paul N

[gamgee]

i'm suprised he hasn't appointed himself to the position of holy virginity breaker (only $29.95 includes free steak knives)

[Quasievil]

Who cares if he makes a million dollars for half a days work, I dont. Good on him !!

As far as Im concerned religion is a joke anyway and largely for the weak minded and needy and if he has followers that are dumb enough to pay $55.00 good on him.

Destiny church is a commercial venture nothing less, its like Mcdonalds, you buy a big mac knowing it will be shite but you pay for it anyway and you get sucked in big time in a moment of weak needy stupidity driven by good advertising, and you go back again , its all the same shite except with the destiny church youre feed a diet of mindless boring drivel driven by an homophobic bigot lead by a over developed ego.

[placidfemme]

THE 10% IS MEANT TO HELP YOUR FELLOW MAN , NOT ONE GREEDY SELF CENTRED MAN. CHRISTIANS ARE STUPID LETTING FUCKWITS MISLEAD THEM

Exactly! He runs his church more like a cult then a church... seriously what religous person charges $50 (or $55) to watch you being made a bishop (self-apointted no less) and then have the cheek to pass the basket around and ask for tithings (not sure of the spelling).

Thats just wrong

[MrMelon]

Who cares if he makes a million dollars for half a days work, I dont. Good on him !!

As far as Im concerned religion is a joke anyway and largely for the weak minded and needy and if he has followers that are dumb enough to pay $55.00 good on him.

Destiny church is a commercial venture nothing less, its like Mcdonalds, you buy a big mac knowing it will be shite but you pay for it anyway and you get sucked in big time in a moment of weak needy stupidity driven by good advertising, and you go back again , its all the same shite except with the destiny church youre feed a diet of mindless boring drivel driven by an homophobic bigot lead by a over developed ego.

It'd be all good and nice if Destiny Church was just a commercial venture, but when's the last time you saw McDonalds run for government by offering all its customers a free Big Mac?

[spudchucka]

Tamaki is a joke, only not a very funny one. The only thing that could possibly be a bigger joke than him is the flocks of brain washed loopies that follow him.

[placidfemme]

Heres a piss take site... some of the articles are rather funny... must piss Brain off...

http://www.densitychurch.org/

[v.ros`]

Heres a piss take site... some of the articles are rather funny... must piss Brain off...

http://www.densitychurch.org/

Haha that was funny...

One of the questions in that site is "Should I wear boxers or briefs " lol

[TwoSeven]

This might make an interesting read..



Tamaki, who had for years been ignored when he made political speeches, now had a captive audience. The political climate had also changed. New Zealand was a [reticent] and disillusioned country. At Kyoto the New Zealand government had been forced to sign a treaty that gave away 13% of her Carbon Credits. This meant a loss for 4 million people, a large percentage of her raw materials (65% of iron ore reserves, 45% of her coal, 72% of her zinc) and 10% of her factories had to reduce production to save credits. New Zealand also lost production in all her overseas colonies.

Under the terms of the Kyoto Treaty New Zealand also had to pay for damage caused by the excessive carbon production. These reparations amounted to 38% of her national wealth.

Tamaki was no longer isolated. The New Zealand people who attended his lectures shared his sense of failure. They found his message that they were not to blame attractive. He told them that New Zealand had not been beaten in the courts but had been betrayed by Athiests and Prodestants who had not preached religion and undermined their effort.

The New Zealand People also began using Tamaki as a spy. In September 1999, he was instructed to attend a meeting of the Destiny New Zealand Party (DNZP). The party feared that this new party, led by Richard Lewis, might be advocating anti-athiest revolution. Tamaki discovered that the party's political ideas were similar to his own. He approved of Lewis’s New Zealand nationalism and anti-athiesm but was unimpressed with the way the party was organized. Although there as a spy, Tamaki could not restrain himself when a member made a point he disagreed with, and he stood up and made a passionate speech on the subject.

Lewis was impressed with Tamaki's abilities as an orator and invited him to join the party. At first Tamaki was reluctant, but urged on by his party president, Stephen Brown, he eventually agreed. He was only the fifty-fourth person to join the DNZP. Tamaki was immediately asked to join the executive committee and was later appointed the party's propaganda manager or bishop.

In the next few weeks Tamaki brought several members of his peer group into the party, including one of his fellows, Paul Hubble. The arrival of Hubble was an important development as he had access to the New Zealand political funding and was able to transfer some of the money into the DNZP.

The Destiny New Zealand Party used some of this money to advertise their meetings. Tamaki was often the main speaker and it was during this period that he developed the techniques that made him into such a persuasive orator.

Tamaki always arrived late which helped to develop tension and a sense of expectation. He took the stage, stood to attention and waited until there was complete silence before he started his speech. For the first few months Tamaki appeared nervous and spoke haltingly. Slowly he would begin to relax and his style of delivery would change. He would start to rock from side to side and begin to gesticulate with his hands. His voice would get louder and become more passionate. Sweat poured of him, his face turned white, his eyes bulged and his voice cracked with emotion. He ranted and raved about the injustices done to New Zealanders and played on his audience's emotions of hatred and envy. By the end of the speech the audience would be in a state of near hysteria and were willing to do whatever Tamaki suggested.

As soon as his speech finished Tamaki would quickly leave the stage and disappear from view. Refusing to be photographed, Tamaki's aim was to create an air of mystery about himself, hoping that it would encourage others to come and hear the man who was now being described as "the new Messiah".

Tamaki's reputation as an orator grew and it soon became clear that he was the main reason why people were joining the party. This gave Tamaki tremendous power within the organization as they knew they could not afford to lose him. One change suggested by Tamaki concerned adding "Destiny" to the name of the party. Tamaki had always been hostile to socialist ideas, especially those that involved racial or sexual equality. However, socialism was a popular political philosophy in New Zealand after the First World War. This was reflected in the growth in the New Zealand Labour Party (NSLP), one the larger political parties in New Zealand.

Tamaki, therefore wanted redefined New Zealand by placing the word 'Destiny' before it. He claimed he was only in favour of equality for those who had "Kiwi blood". Athiests and other "aliens" would lose their rights of citizenship, and immigration of non-Kiwi should be brought to an end.


Its the history of Adolph hitler - i've just changed the names of a few things to make it interesting to read. And of course represents my view of where Tamaki is going.

[vifferman]

Next steps in his ascendency: Archbishop Tamaki, Cardinal Tamaki, Pope Brian, God.

[vifferman]

I'm thinking of starting a whole new religion in which Robert Plant will be the messiah (he foresaw the Internet when he wrote the words "...many times I've wondered how much there is to know..."
Obviously, the net itself will be the deity here, and as decent servers cost money, the devotees will have to donate 25% of their income to the church. Should be very lucrative.
Any of you guys want to be a bishop?
Hell yeah! And we can listen to stuff like "The Mighty Rearranger" in church, instead of your normal boring hymns. :yes:

[vifferman]

The saddest thing about the whole circus is that those who need money the most, are the ones giving it away to it.
In the oldy oldy old days, tithing suported a whole bunch of things, and effectively replaced taxes for things like caring for the sick and poor. Nowadays, where we already have a social welfare system, there should be no reason for a 10% tithe.

[Coldkiwi]

nothing like a bunch of ill-informed (or completely uninformed) opinions to provide some good balanced criticism hmmmm ?

anyone moaning about destiny and tithing 10% oughta do some reading of the Old Testament. Some of his other ideas may not be so easy to understand (I don't) but the tithing one seems popular to beat on.

the REASON for tithing was to look after God's House, ie. the leaders, the building, the churches activites. Some of those activities include social welfare activity but just because we have the DPB doesn't mean all of societies poorest are being cared for.

I do wonder how many of those that moan about tithing and christians being stupid for giving their money to the church actually do their own form of social welfare to the same degree? Any takers? Those in glass houses....

[Hitcher]

I have no problem with the concept of tithing and think that for churches it is an entirely sensible way of equipping themselves to do Good Works. If a church had to rely on gold coins in collection plates it wouldn't last long.

What puts people off the concept of tithing is lack of humility and Ostentatious Displays of Wealth: bling, haircuts, suits, shoes, Harleys, houses, SUVs, and multi-million dollar worship palaces. I'm not saying that Destiny and other similar churches don't put money back into the hands of those in genuine need. But they would be more accepted by the community at large if they were seen to be selflessly putting people first, rather than enhancing the reputation of their self-appointed leaders.

[TwoSeven]

anyone moaning about destiny and tithing 10% oughta do some reading of the Old Testament. Some of his other ideas may not be so easy to understand (I don't) but the tithing one seems popular to beat on.


Having read the bible and several version of it. Can you point out the exact phrase that says anything about tithing. I think you'll find that it doesnt say anything at all.

In fact, in 2 cor 9 it suggests that asking for someone to give stuff is not really a good idea (but that is in the hacked king james version). And no official version of the bible uses the word tithe - the correct term is bounty and is defined as your excess stuff (ie. hand me downs, and the like).

In actual fact, only Levites have the right to receive tithe and its this that the old testimant states. Since the levites (or the leviacal order of priests) havnt existed for over a thousand years or so, I doubt you'd find any person of jewish descent who pays tithe.

Basically its now a christian hack for screwing you out of money for no other reason of personal gain for the church and its organisers.

[Quasievil]

It'd be all good and nice if Destiny Church was just a commercial venture, but when's the last time you saw McDonalds run for government by offering all its customers a free Big Mac?

of course its a commercial venture, no need to run Mcdonalds and Destiny church as a COMPLETE similarity I did not mean that obviously.

Oh and by the way get rid of that fucken nutters photo off your profile, what the hell is he there for, do you idolise him or something ?

[vifferman]

nothing like a bunch of ill-informed (or completely uninformed) opinions to provide some good balanced criticism hmmmm ?

If that's directed at me (since it follows my post, I'll assume that it is, in part at least), then I'm neither ill-informed nor completely uninformed. I am guilty of perhaps not thinking more carefully before posting, however.

I am well aware of the Old Testament (having studied it, well.. studiously), and of tithing, having tithed for a period of time myself.

I do wonder how many of those that moan about tithing and christians being stupid for giving their money to the church actually do their own form of social welfare to the same degree? Any takers? Those in glass houses....
Yeah, I do actually give to a variety of causes, not that it's any of your business.

What puts people off the concept of tithing is lack of humility and Ostentatious Displays of Wealth: bling, haircuts, suits, shoes, Harleys, houses, SUVs, and multi-million dollar worship palaces. I'm not saying that Destiny and other similar churches don't put money back into the hands of those in genuine need. But they would be more accepted by the community at large if they were seen to be selflessly putting people first, rather than enhancing the reputation of their self-appointed leaders.
Eggs Zachary. :yes:

[ManDownUnder]

I won't pay $55, I won't give 10% of anything (least of all the money used to pay my mortgage)...

But I'd be there for the laugh and might even help make the crown... anyone got some spare tinfoil?

Put a little holy (10/50) oil in his hair, mutter something in bike speak then parade him though town!

Spanky - you gotta look like it's a surprise though ok - protest a little at first, then set the rules for the rest of us to follow...

As our prospective bishop is a site perv nominee I can see this could get interesting...
MDU :drinkup:

[vifferman]

Put a little holy (10/50) oil in his hair, mutter something in bike speak then parade him though town!
You'll have to give him some hair first...

[ManDownUnder]

Well now... let's see.

He's there and he's making money... It'll be interesting to see what assets he owns (interests have to be declared at the time of entering Parliamtn... or something like that to make sure there are no conflicts of interest when making laws on stuff).

[ManDownUnder]

You'll have to give him some hair first...

yeah good point... maybe we could organise a miracle and have some grow back??:rofl:

Sorry Spankme... please don't use your almightly powers and smite me from KB into the wilderness...

[surfchick]

re tithing & the churches wealth-yeah its amazing how things have changed. i interviewed a woman in northern ireland for a film i'm makin and she was really upset about the wealth of st. josephs church in omagh. she remarked in her childhood the priests rode bicycles and were poor-but had enormous power and status etc and now they drive mercs, smoke cigars and play golf (no joke) (and, like policemen nowadays... have less status...)... but tamaki would have to work a bit harder to catch up to the likes of tammy faye... :whistle:

[Fart]

re tithing & the churches wealth-yeah its amazing how things have changed. i interviewed a woman in northern ireland for a film i'm makin and she was really upset about the wealth of st. josephs church in omagh. she remarked in her childhood the priests rode bicycles and were poor-but had enormous power and status etc and now they drive mercs, smoke cigars and play golf (no joke) (and, like policemen nowadays... have less status...)... but tamaki would have to work a bit harder to catch up to the likes of tammy faye... :whistle:

Did you know that the Catholic church in Nz is one of the wealthest organisation? They have a large holding of properties. Most of Mission Bay, St Heliers, Kohimarama area belongs to the church on leasehold to owners. They also invest church money on the stockmarket.

[Lou Girardin]

Does that mean his followers constitute a Bishopric. Or are they just dumb prics?

[vifferman]

Did you know that the Catholic church in Nz is one of the wealthest organisation? They have a large holding of properties. Most of Mission Bay, St Heliers, Kohimarama area belongs to the church on leasehold to owners. They also invest church money on the stockmarket.
Yes, I did know that.

I've also seen that documentary on C4 - "Popetown", and seen how the Pope and his henchman live. :yes:

[Ixion]

Does that mean his followers constitute a Bishopric. Or are they just dumb prics?

No, they would be a diocese. But, no matter what he calls himself, he is not a bishop. There is a requirement called the "Apostolic Succession" that says that any bishop has to be ordained by a bishop who was himself ordained etc in an unbroken line back to St Peter. (The Churchs of Rome , Antoich , Constaninople, and England argue vehemently about the Apostolic Succession , but all agree on it's necessity)

You can't just call yourself a bishop, it's not just a title

[NC]

I don't know about you , MrMelon. But I feel like cutting some hands off.


It's a joke, Quasi :weird:

[Paul in NZ]

I don't know about you , MrMelon. But I feel like cutting some hands off.


It's a joke, Quasi :weird:

Well if you started with each other it WOULD keep the number of your posts down!

Just a thought!

[Ms Piggy]

anyone moaning about destiny and tithing 10% oughta do some reading of the Old Testament. Some of his other ideas may not be so easy to understand (I don't) but the tithing one seems popular to beat on.
I'll take ya up on this one CK - I (like Hitcher) don't have a problem with the concept of tithing but I do find it amusing that a lot of Tamaki types say that Christians are living under the New Testament, not the Old Testament law but are all too willing to trot out the tithing rhetoric when it suits. Could you tell me where tithing is mentioned in the New Testament? (genuine question btw)

I do however have a HUGE problem with Tamaki's prosperity doctrines and his general love of money and possessions. I just think his example is a far cry from the Jesus of the bible who was (from my limited understanding) a humble man, with few possessions, who gave genuine help to those in need rather than charging them money to come and see him perform! I mean c'mon - how could any genuine Christian say what Tamaki is doing is biblical???


I do wonder how many of those that moan about tithing and christians being stupid for giving their money to the church actually do their own form of social welfare to the same degree? Any takers? Those in glass houses...
Btw way CK - I do donate to non-religious causes and in fact part of my motivation for becoming a social worker was due to my personal frustration over hypocrisy within the church i.e. a lot of people talking the talk but not walking the walk.

[TwoSeven]

As I pointed out in my early post, new or old testiment - there is no tithing in the bible. Its just christian bullshit.

Anyone who disagrees, go get a bible and quote me the bit that says how to tithe and to whom.

[Ms Piggy]

As I pointed out in my early post, new or old testiment - there is no tithing in the bible. Its just christian bullshit.

Anyone who disagrees, go get a bible and quote me the bit that says how to tithe and to whom.
Yeah cheers - read that after I had posted. Thanks.

[Hitcher]

As I pointed out in my early post, new or old testiment - there is no tithing in the bible. Its just christian bullshit.

Anyone who disagrees, go get a bible and quote me the bit that says how to tithe and to whom.
Try Leviticus 27:30; 27:32
Numbers 18:26
Deuteronomy 12:16

That should give you some answers to your questions.

[Big Dave]

'Why do they....titter so, centuwion?'
'I think it's a joke name sir, like
Sillyous Sodus or Bigus Dickus...'

[Hitcher]

'Why do they....titter so, centuwion?'
'I think it's a joke name sir, like
Sillyous Sodus or Bigus Dickus...'
CROWD: [cheering]
PILATE: People of Jewusalem!
CROWD: [chuckling]
PILATE: Wome is your fwiend.
CROWD: [laughing]
PILATE: To pwove our fwiendship, it is customawy at this time to welease a wongdoer fwom our pwisons.
CROWD: [laughing]
GUARD #3: [chuckling]
PILATE: Whom would you have me welease?
BOB HOSKINS: Welease Woger!
CROWD: Yes! Welease Woger! Welease Woger! [laughing]
PILATE: Vewy well. I shall welease Woger!
CROWD: [cheering]
CENTURION: Sir, uh, we don't have a 'Woger', sir.
PILATE: What?
CENTURION: Uh, we don't have anyone of that name, sir.
PILATE: Ah. We have no 'Woger'!
CROWD: Ohhhhh!
BOB: Well, what about Wodewick, then?
CROWD: Yes! Welease Wodewick! Welease Wodewick!
PILATE: Centuwion, why do they titter so?
CENTURION: Just some, uh, Jewish joke, sir.
PILATE: Are they... wagging me?
CENTURION: Oh, no, sir!
GUARD #3: [chuckling]
PILATE: Vewy well. I shall welease... Wodewick!
CROWD: [laughing]
CENTURION: Sir, we don't have a 'Roderick' either.
PILATE: No 'Woger'? No 'Wodewick'?
CENTURION: Sorry, sir.
PILATE: Who is this 'Wod'--
GUARD #1: [chuckle]
PILATE: Who is the 'Wodewick' to whom you wefer?
BOB: He's a wobber!
CROWD: [laughing]
MAN: And a wapist!
CROWD: [laughing]
WOMAN: And a pickpocket!
CROWD: Yeah! Ahh, no! No! Shh! Shh!...
PILATE: He sounds a notowious cwiminal.
CENTURION: We haven't got him, sir. Mm hm.
PILATE: Do we have anyone in our pwisons at all?
CENTURION: Oh, yes, sir. We've got, uh, 'Samson', sir.
PILATE: Samson?
CENTURION: Samson the Sadducee Strangler, sir. Uh, Silus the Syrian Assassin. Uh, several seditious scribes from Caesarea. Uhhh, sixty-seven seers from--
BIGGUS: Let me thpeak to them, Pontiuth!
CENTURION: Oh, no. Oh.
PILATE: Ah. Good idea, Biggus.
BIGGUS: Thitizens! We have Thamthon the Thadduthee Thtrangler, Thilus...
CROWD: [laughing]
BIGGUS: ...the Athyrian Athathin, theveral theditiouth thcribth from Thaetharea, and...

[MikeL]

:Offtopic: ??

Not at all. A very apposite digression, Hitcher. Well done...

And if Mr Tamaki ever reads this thread he will congratulate himself. In his business, like all show business, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about...

[Zed]

As I pointed out in my early post, new or old testiment - there is no tithing in the bible. Its just christian bullshit.

Anyone who disagrees, go get a bible and quote me the bit that says how to tithe and to whom.I disagree with you. Of course there is "tithing" in the Holy Bible!

I'll make a deal with you TwoSeven - if I can show you from the Bible (specifically Old Testament) that tithing was practised, will you apologise to all Christian 'bs' artists and then keep quiet on the matter? :D

[Ixion]

I disagree with you. Of course there is "tithing" in the Holy Bible!

I'll make a deal with you TwoSeven - if I can show you from the Bible (specifically Old Testament) that tithing was practised, will you apologise to all Christian 'bs' artists and then keep quiet on the matter? :D

Hm. Deuteronomy 14:22
Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

and 14:23

And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

Leviticus 27:30

And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.


and an apparent approval by JC

Matt 23:23

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Seem to give some suport to tithing. Whether that should extend to Harley Davidsons for the "bishop" is perhaps another matter.

(But we do have 1 Cor 9:13 , which could also be Apostolic endorsement)

Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

Mr Zed will do this much better than I

[Jamezo]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=268330#post268330

feel the wrath!

[TwoSeven]

Try Leviticus 27:30; 27:32
Numbers 18:26
Deuteronomy 12:16

That should give you some answers to your questions.

Oh you mean the bit where it says the maasa sheni belongs to the LORD. Don't see anywhere where it says paying tithe to the church (unless you read king james which of course was made up by a fringe lunatic with a printing press to please the church).

Or maybe its the bit where it says

When you have finished taking all the [tithes] of your grain for the third year, which is the special tithe year, you must give them to the Levite, and to the foreigner, orphan and widow, so that they will eat their fill in your settlements.

Thats from an earlier bible, but certainly not the hebrew bible.

You see, ma'aser is made from a babylonian root word - it 'aser' means 10 and ma means part. So you get 10th part. Certainly not tithe which is a greek word and means tax. Apart from the fact that the greek word tithe wasnt inserted into the bible until the christians [greeks] added it in about 500AD, it means tax and the bible explicity does not reference giving of taxes to the LORD. If that happened the romans would have crucified everyone. The bible is also pretty clear that you should only give stuff you own and have no need of from your own free will.

So - giving a 10% tax is a christian bastardisation of the old babylonian system of taking 10% tax, when the bible states quite clearly that it should only be a 'part of whatever bounty you have' and as stated above should be given to the levites.

Also, further proof is that abraham and co, spoke a version of babylonian - not greek - so they would have used the term 10th part, not tax (tithe). Two different meanings.

In actual fact, the Torah that the phrase comes from originally talks about the 7 year cycle where years one and two are the Maaser Sheni which is where the 10th part of the produce is eaten in jerusalem, year three is the maaser ani where a 10th part is given to the poor and year 4 the maaser rishon (only 9%) is given to a levite (of which none now exist) - note that in the phrase above it says the after the special year (maaser ani) you do the maaser rishon (give to the levites).

Now the old testiment (the holy writ of israel) refers to the period 1800BC (greece helanistic dark ages) to 700BC (the rise of athens) or thereabouts.
In 1800BC the hebrews settled in palistine then ran out of food and buggered off into egypt. Egypt got conqured by the Hyksos who then later got beaten up by the egyptians (1700bc) who promptly enslaved the hebrews. 400 years later moses got fed up with all the hard work and buggered off back to palistine and made all the people worship yahweh. [no greeks]

Problem is, another lot of people who north of palistine (in lebanon) didnt like the idea of their new neighbours and invaded (these folks were called by the greeks phonecians and their land canan - they were refered to in other names as the cannanites). [no greeks]

Anyhow - cannanites (now called palistinians I think) - hebrews (and related tribes)- didnt like each other. So they had a battle at a place called armageddon (of which on the hill is a little tourist shop - quite nice). Anyhow, the hebrews were bossed around by a woman called deborah who was so bossy that the hebrews went out and won the war is shear fear of what she would do to them if they lost. [no greeks]

Shortly after than (about 1100bc) the philistines turned up with their iron weapons and stole the ARK (see raiders of the lost ark - early greek play with the greek hero indianus joanus). [still no greeks - they are all at troy]

In about 950BC some little kid known as david really pissed off the philistines by beating their big fullah who was called goliath, nicked back the ARK and stole a city called Jerusalem from the cananites and built a temple to house the ark (see the greek play indianus jonus and the temple of doom).

Not much happened after that, soloman became king in 922BC buggered it up an split the empire in two the south were jews (judean peoples front - the splitters [monty python]) and the north (isralites). [nup - still no greeks - they are having a dark age]

720BC - really important. The Assyrians captured the north (isralites) inbred with them creating the samaritans. Later in 586BC they nicked the south from the jews (starting another exile) and lived there for ages until about 530BC when the persians let them go home. After that the greeks and romans took over (about 500bc). [Thar be greeks]

Anyhow - the purpose of that history was to prove yet again that THERE WERE NO GREEKS IN ISRAEL during the period of the old testament - hence 10th Part - not Tax (tithe). The latter word couldnt be used until at least 500bc.

Although, at this time i'll probably give you that that the final version of the old testament was drafted by the rabbis in 9AD - so there would have def. been a greek translation or two written between 500bc and then - but the hebrew version still used the babylonian word maaser (and still does today) and the greek version would have used the word tithe. The christian version comes from the greek. Which is probably how it was all buggered up - especially since ancient hebrew is a dead language, it would have had to have been the greek translation christians used - ancient hebrew is still being translated today.

So anyhow, first two years, eat 10% of your produce in jerusalem, 3rd year give it to the poor, 4th year, give to levits, 3,6 year, eat it again - 7th year - keep it.

No tithe or tax.

[Pixie]

'll send you through the 'Dave-olite' application forms as soon as I get the religious tax exemption and registered charity status.

Meantime, continue riding your motorcycle, play with your computer and keep your hands off my wife.
Could you outline what is involved in your Dave-otions?

I wonder if Brian got a new Bishopric?

[What?]

In 1800BC the hebrews settled in palistine then ran out of food and buggered off into egypt. Egypt got conqured by the Hyksos who then later got beaten up by the egyptians (1700bc) who promptly enslaved the hebrews. 400 years later moses got fed up with all the hard work and buggered off back to palistine and made all the people worship yahweh...
Or, in very brief simplicity, the Egyptians got pissed with the Hebrews trying to get in on their religion, in particular the bit about Osiris (from which comes the modern Christian theology of resurrection), and decided to do away with them. Moses then got some followers and did a runner.
Interestingly, this story has nothing to do with taxation...

[Big Dave]

Could you outline what is involved in your Dave-otions?


Bless you bruddah.

Each day begins with us facing Hinckley in Leicestishire and giving thanks to the saviour John Bloor for the resurrection of Triumph.

Then we read a passage from the good book - Kiwi Rider Magazine ($10 at your news stand)

Next we don the ceremonial Shoei and Leather garments and commence the sacrificial throttle wringing.

The tall, blue eyed brunette should then be complimented on her stunning appearance in said leather garments, taken for a spirited ride and subsequently put in an inevitably 'compliant' frame of mind.

Unfortunately - i have to pass the plate around and have the direct payroll deduction form signed before I can divulge more.

(of course those preferring Eastern mysticism may also acknowledge the work of Sachiro, Suzuki et al and we even accommodate Spaghetti munchers. Bavarians need not apply)

[Zed]

No tithe or tax.Riveting stuff TwoSeven, and spoken so authoritatively!! Still havn't convinced me though. :no:

Can you name all your sources for that so-called historical information?

[Ixion]

..

(of course those preferring Eastern mysticism may also acknowledge the work of Sachiro, Suzuki et al and we even accommodate Spaghetti munchers. Bavarians need not apply)

Das Herrenvolk have their own god, Helmut der Horny Humper. Leather is so passe. Chain mail, that's where it's at.

[Big Dave]

Das Herrenvolk have their own god, Helmut der Horny Humper. Leather is so passe. Chain mail, that's where it's at.



Indeed - As Goetz is want to say 'All chermans are svingers, ja?'

(I'm so glad you know the bm thing is just a piss take.)

[TwoSeven]

Riveting stuff TwoSeven, and spoken so authoritatively!! Still havn't convinced me though. :no:

Can you name all your sources for that so-called historical information?


The stuff about the maaser shini I got from one of the israeli religous websites. Its from one of the Torah's and was written in hebrew (which I can kind of read with the help of my hebrew dictionary). I then had to translate to english and compare with greek (one day I shall learn) and also ancient babylonian - then check it against history to make sure i'd done the correct translation. The hardest part was finding sources for the root word aser which in babylonian was spelt differently but had the same meaning (I think it took about 3 or 4 hours of research - there is a lot of crap out there).

The biggest problem is that christianity is based on the greek and latin texts of the greek and roman empires, rather than the earlier hebrew texts. So most websites quote documents and sources that repeat the original greek/hebrew translation error of aser and tithe.

The history of Israel came from some website I know not (it was nearly 2am), but having lived in Tel Aviv for a while I also used by notes from the induction course I did and the fact that i've been to most of the historical sites in Israel and know their history quite well (hence the comment about the tourist shop). I may have used the wikipedia to get the timeline then gone and visited many christian and university sites to verify. Its only a loose timeline - the point I was making was that there were no greeks around to influence the writing of the original hebrew texts. I did spend about an hour and a half reading texts on phonecian history which is quite good but not directly related.

The knowledge that the greek scripts are not the same as the hebrew scripts came from studying greek history in the middle east for a while and also knowing that greece didnt really exist much during the old testiment. Also, the christian religion wasnt really documented until 500AD+ some thousand years later - so there was no way they could have used ancient hebrew and must have used greek and latin (which was in vogue at the time). Even the modern version of the old testament written in hebrew was only settled in the 1st century AD and is written in modern hebrew.

The counter argument that christians should make of course is that they are christians and follow the christian religion not the hebrew and jewish ones. Therefore their texts are based on the greek word tithe (tax) and as that was officially adopted into their faith, is the one they should follow.

My argument is that I dont believe it is morally right to make someone to pay tax on their faith. I think the hebrews had it right when they said use your excess to help the poor and those that work in an area that generates no income (such as the levites).

The rest of the argument was just nit picking by pointing out the language transaltion error. To be honest its not really relevant to anything.

[SPman]

So There!

From my (admittedly limited) reading of the era - I would tend to back TwoSeven on this one.

And "Bishop Brian" is still a twat.

[Skyryder]

So There!

From my (admittedly limited) reading of the era - I would tend to back TwoSeven on this one.

And "Bishop Brian" is still a twat.

Well I learnt a lot too. But no matter what logic or historical references are used Zed's got the faith.................but I did detect a little doubt in his post. Something no one else has managed to do.

Top marks Two Seven.

Skyryder

[MikeL]

Zed's got the faith.................but I did detect a little doubt in his post. Something no one else has managed to do.


Doubt? :rofl:
No way. Zed will challenge the sources. Since they are not authoritative (i.e. KJV) he will dismiss them. End of argument. Two Seven loses.
Sorry.

[TwoSeven]

So There!

From my (admittedly limited) reading of the era - I would tend to back TwoSeven on this one.


The interesting thing is - I wouldnt back me on this one - it is after all, only my opinon. :)

While I am of the belief that most of what I have said has a modecum of merit and I shall explore it further (as i found it interesting doing the research) so may reasearch it as a paper. I have simply used the same techniques that mr tamaki uses to express his argument.

Interesting how it works :)

But as I said in my own contradiction earlier - I do not wish to affect anyones beliefs or faith or anything else. Its their right, and none of my business.

[surfchick]

meh well at least you've done some research- and lived in some interesting places too. was a good read your post. ...zed can only bat back if his research is equally contextual... waiting to see.

tamaki's not exactly backwards about coming forwards about collecting cash, but he's not yet reahched the lofty heights of needing a million US a day to run his christian TV media empire like tammy faye and mr baker...:devil2: :devil2: :devil2: still he won't have to ask the public for cash if he keeps appointing himself bishop... i'll pay him 50 bucks to watch him become bishop when ian paisley's the pope.



The interesting thing is - I wouldnt back me on this one - it is after all, only my opinon. :)

While I am of the belief that most of what I have said has a modecum of merit and I shall explore it further (as i found it interesting doing the research) so may reasearch it as a paper. I have simply used the same techniques that mr tamaki uses to express his argument.

Interesting how it works :)

But as I said in my own contradiction earlier - I do not wish to affect anyones beliefs or faith or anything else. Its their right, and none of my business.

[Madmax]

bishop brian at it again makes me pleased i managed
to hit him with an egg (wish it was something heaver though)
at his auckland march
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10332266

[Ghost Lemur]

bishop brian at it again makes me pleased i managed
to hit him with an egg (wish it was something heaver though)
at his auckland march
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10332266


Favourite Quote...

"One even swore on the Koran -- in my Christian nation." :rofl: :killingme

His comedic value would almost make it worth while giving him the country. As it is I still fail to see why he keeps getting publicity. Hasn't anyone told the media the way to deal with trolls is to ignore them.

[Hitcher]

My argument is that I dont believe it is morally right to make someone to pay tax on their faith.
I think you're missing something. The tithe isn't a tax on your faith, it's a contribution to running your church. Churches and other service-based providers (such as Kiwibiker) rely on contributions from the faithful to survive. The greater the level of contribution from the faithful, the more "good works" they can do. However that's usually where the model breaks down and accountability to parishioners/contributors goes completely out the window, those in "authority" get greedy, corruption seeps in and the whole thing turns to poop. Instead of African orphans and clean water schemes for the third world, its Hummers for the "Bishops" and multi-million dollar worship palaces. This is one reason why I have respect for people of faith who choose not to align with a branded religion or denomination, yet do their own good works in their own way.

Matthew 5:16

[Ms Piggy]

Arrrggggghhhhhh! :mad: What a creep! Yes it is amusing that he calls NZ "...my christian nation." :rofl: I'm just grateful that he is so radical and extremist that his narrow minded, bigoted political party won't even get a lot of christian votes!

[Ms Piggy]

I think you're missing something. The tithe isn't a tax on your faith, it's a contribution to running your church. Churches and other service-based providers (such as Kiwibiker) rely on contributions from the faithful to survive. The greater the level of contribution from the faithful, the more "good works" they can do. However that's usually where the model breaks down and accountability to parishioners/contributors goes completely out the window, those in "authority" get greedy, corruption seeps in and the whole thing turns to poop. Instead of African orphans and clean water schemes for the third world, its Hummers for the "Bishops" and multi-million dollar worship palaces. This is one reason why I have respect for people of faith who choose not to align with a branded religion or denomination, yet do their own good works in their own way.

Matthew 5:16
Amen! Couldn't have expressed it better myself. Actions speak louder than words!!! :yes:

[Ixion]

I think you're missing something. The tithe isn't a tax on your faith, it's a contribution to running your church. Churches and other service-based providers (such as Kiwibiker) rely on contributions from the faithful to survive. The greater the level of contribution from the faithful, the more "good works" they can do. However that's usually where the model breaks down and accountability to parishioners/contributors goes completely out the window, those in "authority" get greedy, corruption seeps in and the whole thing turns to poop. Instead of African orphans and clean water schemes for the third world, its Hummers for the "Bishops" and multi-million dollar worship palaces. This is one reason why I have respect for people of faith who choose not to align with a branded religion or denomination, yet do their own good works in their own way.

Matthew 5:16

that is very true. Bishop Hitcher anyone?. Only point is that other service organisations, like KB, don't have the ability to tell their members that they'll go to hell if they don't cough up.

Fewer people would have reservations about tithing if it was genuinely voluntary.

Seem to remember something about a widow's mite.

[Hitcher]

Seem to remember something about a widow's mite.
Do I detect an Aussie accent?

[TwoSeven]

I think you're missing something. The tithe isn't a tax on your faith, it's a contribution to running your church. Churches and other service-based providers (such as Kiwibiker) rely on contributions from the faithful to survive.
Matthew 5:16

See my earlier argument. The church taxes (the meaning of tithe) by means of solicitation the faithfull that attend. KB recieves unsolicited donations (aka. a part of peoples bounty) much like a begger in the streat.

My argument still holds. However, I do agree with the last part. Donating to say 'save the children fund' or something like that is a worthy cause. Being asked to give so a church gets a nice art collection is just plain wrong. Wasnt so long agon that church folks had to work for their livings.

If your going to quote the bible at me - at least use one that wasnt made up in 500AD by people that wanted money to run their empire :)

[TwoSeven]

Out of interest the technique I used is a common one, its kind of like a tripple hook technique - there is a proper term for it in psychology, but I cant remember it.

In basic 'propaganda' the objective is to get people to believe things they otherwise wouldnt. Its used in management, politics, advertising, news broadcasting, education and of course religion. Once a personal believes something they normally wouldnt, they can be made to do things they normally wouldnt (a technique of effective people management).

This technique starts of by stating a basic fact that is otherwise true. Its the same as asking a question in which you must answer 'yes'. You cant 'not answer yes to it'.

I then add another fact that is 'most likely' true (it needs to be more true than false) as its a 'positive reenforcer' to the original. Then follow it up with a third one, that should be true, or in the case of the intention to mislead, will normally sound true, but be false. I'm leveraging 'operant conditioning' if you are familiar with pavlov and his dog.

This is similar to the joke where you ask someone to say 'toast' 10 times, then ask them what they put in a toaster really quickly when they finish - usually they say toast, when the answer is bread.

Now - I could give this information direct if the receiver was non-hostile, or in the case of a hostile person (someone who has the opposite views), I would 'seed' it. Basically I give the information to someone you know and trust, who then tells you. Having no reason to disbelieve them, you take the information on board. You dont need to agree with it, just having it go in one ear and out the other is enough.

I then come along and approach the subject by asking a question that is related to the information you ask, or mis-quote the information to you. If i've used the correct trigger words, you will recall the information I seeded earlier through your peers, and quote it back in firm belief. Thats the hook line and sinker taken.

I dont have to give the information to your friends/relatives. I can give it to their friends. The further away from you I seed the information, the longer it takes to get to you, but the more likely you are to believe it.

The most ideal time to seed the information is when you are most receptive. These can be age related (young/teenage/old), stress related, peer related (thru trusted friends). I could, even change your friends or seed new friends into your immediate group, or associated group (work peers).

A good game is to watch for it in adverts. Dentist adverts with the person in a white coat and in a minimalist setting are really good examples.

[Big Dave]

Did you just use 600 words to say you were bullshitting?

[Big Dave]

Do I detect an Aussie accent?

Chance, dance, France, six, sticks and picks.

[MrMelon]

Take a look at Herr Tamaki's helmet

http://ck.paradise.net.nz/pics/kaiser.jpg

[Big Dave]

Take a look at Herr Tamaki's helmet

http://ck.paradise.net.nz/pics/kaiser.jpg


WHAT! is the photographer wearing?!?

[MrMelon]

Looks like a beer gut and a couple of rolls..

[ManDownUnder]

WHAT! is the photographer wearing?!?

:puke: :rofl: :puke:

[NC]

:puke: :puke:

It's just like that 'yellow pages' ad....

Fuck I hate that ad :puke: :puke:

Very bad Melon

[MrMelon]

Suckers :D

[NC]

Suckers :D
:motu: :clap:

[Lou Girardin]

Bless you bruddah.

Each day begins with us facing Hinckley in Leicestishire and giving thanks to the saviour John Bloor for the resurrection of Triumph.

Then we read a passage from the good book - Kiwi Rider Magazine ($10 at your news stand)

Next we don the ceremonial Shoei and Leather garments and commence the sacrificial throttle wringing.

The tall, blue eyed brunette should then be complimented on her stunning appearance in said leather garments, taken for a spirited ride and subsequently put in an inevitably 'compliant' frame of mind.

Unfortunately - i have to pass the plate around and have the direct payroll deduction form signed before I can divulge more.

(of course those preferring Eastern mysticism may also acknowledge the work of Sachiro, Suzuki et al and we even accommodate Spaghetti munchers. Bavarians need not apply)


Does the tall, blue-eyed brunette know that she's part of the ceremony?
It all sounds slightly pre-christian Roman to me.

[Lou Girardin]

Out of interest the technique I used is a common one, its kind of like a tripple hook technique - there is a proper term for it in psychology, but I cant remember it.

In basic 'propaganda' the objective is to get people to believe things they otherwise wouldnt. Its used in management, politics, advertising, news broadcasting, education and of course religion. Once a personal believes something they normally wouldnt, they can be made to do things they normally wouldnt (a technique of effective people management).

This technique starts of by stating a basic fact that is otherwise true. Its the same as asking a question in which you must answer 'yes'. You cant 'not answer yes to it'.

I then add another fact that is 'most likely' true (it needs to be more true than false) as its a 'positive reenforcer' to the original. Then follow it up with a third one, that should be true, or in the case of the intention to mislead, will normally sound true, but be false. I'm leveraging 'operant conditioning' if you are familiar with pavlov and his dog.

This is similar to the joke where you ask someone to say 'toast' 10 times, then ask them what they put in a toaster really quickly when they finish - usually they say toast, when the answer is bread.

Now - I could give this information direct if the receiver was non-hostile, or in the case of a hostile person (someone who has the opposite views), I would 'seed' it. Basically I give the information to someone you know and trust, who then tells you. Having no reason to disbelieve them, you take the information on board. You dont need to agree with it, just having it go in one ear and out the other is enough.

I then come along and approach the subject by asking a question that is related to the information you ask, or mis-quote the information to you. If i've used the correct trigger words, you will recall the information I seeded earlier through your peers, and quote it back in firm belief. Thats the hook line and sinker taken.

I dont have to give the information to your friends/relatives. I can give it to their friends. The further away from you I seed the information, the longer it takes to get to you, but the more likely you are to believe it.

The most ideal time to seed the information is when you are most receptive. These can be age related (young/teenage/old), stress related, peer related (thru trusted friends). I could, even change your friends or seed new friends into your immediate group, or associated group (work peers).

A good game is to watch for it in adverts. Dentist adverts with the person in a white coat and in a minimalist setting are really good examples.


LTNZ has it down pat.

[Big Dave]

Does the tall, blue-eyed brunette know that she's part of the ceremony?
It all sounds slightly pre-christian Roman to me.

And the problem is....?

[TwoSeven]

Did you just use 600 words to say you were bullshitting?


Lol. I used nearly a thousand words to point our how Mr Tamaki is bullshitting :)

But.. yes. I used factual bullshit :)

To demonstrate what an effect it has - if you've read all of my posts in this thread - you'll know what the greek word for tax is.

Think what I can do with the fact that I know you know this information.

The possibilities of manipulation are endless - just for one word as well. And to think, i've made you read nearly a thousand of my words. Oh happy happy joy joy :clap:

[Aitch]

........ and sex with tall, blue eyed brunettes,


Shit - does that mean that redheads are out? Coz then I can't join! BUGGA!

you're welcome in the church of aitch!

[Lou Girardin]

I was watching flashies on C4 last night and they played Genesis' "Jesus he knows me".
This should be the theme song of all those against Tamaki and what he stands for.
Particularly good line - "Jesus needs $18,000,000 by the weekend".
Almost as good as Bono's "the God I believe in ain't short of cash".