Who is sick of all the Waitangi bullshit?

[JimO]

its a freak show that should be finished, the latest bollocks about charging media to film the stupidity is the icing on the cake, change the name to New Zealand day and forget about the stone age bullshit i dont care who conned who 200 years ago, its time to get on with this century.

[Whynot]

right on, cowboy!

[Mully]

Only "pakeha" media, though.

Don't forget.

What's the bet the racism commissioner wags his finger gently, instead of calling it racism?

[slofox]

Anything that gets me a day off work is OK by me...

[cs363]

Who is sick of all the Waitangi bullshit?


Ooh, ooh.....pick me! :yes:

[steve_t]

$1000 for media personnel to be on the marae?! But be glad it's that cos the initial suggestion was $2000 :facepalm:

[oneofsix]

Anything that gets me a day off work is OK by me...

Lucky you, for most of us it wont this year :violin: Should have an observance day.
Lets also have Dominion Day :yes:

[Laava]

That charge won't stick. There are too many attention whores there for that to happen

[slofox]

Lucky you, for most of us it wont this year :violin: Should have an observance day.
Lets also have Dominion Day :yes:

This year excluded...:angry:

[Kickaha]

Only "pakeha" media, though.

Not just "Pakeha" media, but Maori TV have said they won't pay or attend

[Mom]

Only "pakeha" media, though.

Don't forget.

What's the bet the racism commissioner wags his finger gently, instead of calling it racism?

Maori TV refused to pay, the worm is turning, even an elder of Ngapuhi has come out and said, if you pay it, get a receipt so we can track where the money went :pinch:


$1000 for media personnel to be on the marae?! But be glad it's that cos the initial suggestion was $2000 :facepalm:

It is for parking OK! What a friggen joke.

[Mully]

Not just "Pakeha" media, but Maori TV have said they won't pay or attend

The report I read said it was only being "levied" on "Pakeha" media.

If Maori TV have made a stand, good on them.

[Gremlin]

If they would all just have normal time consuming jobs like the rest of us, they wouldn't have time to behave like clowns in a circus.

[Elysium]

The whole event will be Hone's day. Get rid of this stupid holiday or change it to either NZ day or Dominion day.

[davebullet]

I was sick of it long before it turned me into a racist.

[Maha]

I cant wait till they Mondayise Waitangi day....thats when it will have true meaning!...:woohoo:

[Mully]

I cant wait till they Mondayise Waitangi day....thats when it will have true meaning!...:woohoo:

So it only has meaning 5 years out of 7 for you??

[Maha]

So it only has meaning 5 years out of 7 for you??

Yeah the other two years I am busy.

[onearmedbandit]

The report I read said it was only being "levied" on "Pakeha" media.

If Maori TV have made a stand, good on them.

In this (http://news.msn.co.nz/haveyoursay/8205253/should-non-maori-media-pay-an-entry-fee-on-waitangi-day) article it states that Apiata said the only media who were exempt were the local Maori radio station. Didn't stop the article being titled 'Should non-Maori media pay an entry fee on Waitangi Day?' though did it.

[Mully]

In this (http://news.msn.co.nz/haveyoursay/8205253/should-non-maori-media-pay-an-entry-fee-on-waitangi-day) article it states that Apiata said the only media who were exempt were the local Maori radio station. Didn't stop the article being titled 'Should non-Maori media pay an entry fee on Waitangi Day?' though did it.

I read this one (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10703691)


Ngapuhi iwi members are threatening to charge Pakeha media $1000 to enter the lower Te Tii Marae at Waitangi on February 6

So, yeah.

[Ocean1]

Who is sick of all the Waitangi bullshit?

W(h)aitangi, surely.

[avgas]

Maori TV have said they won't pay or attend
Cos they get the day off Bro.....

[avgas]

If Maori TV have made a stand, good on them.
More of a sit down and lets take the day off cos its a holiday bro.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Anzac day means something, waitangi day means nothing.

[Pussy]

W(h)aitangi, surely.

what are you whanking on about?? :D

[Big Col]

Cheeky Darkies:yes:

[Winston001]

These people are being perfectly reasonable. Here's a chance to make a buck out of mega-rich media outfits. What's not to like??


So there's a risk the media won't go and we won't have any news coverage...oh well, that's private enterprise, just have to suck it up. And watch Fox News :D

[SMOKEU]

Look at what happened between Japan and the USA in WW2. They were killing each other en mass. The Japs bombed Pearl Harbour, so the Americans nuked Japan, killing huge numbers of innocent civilians.

Look at what the Nazis did in WW2.

In both of those examples, people have moved on and put the past in the past. Why should white people continue to apologise for something that our ancestors may or may not have done, hundreds of years ago? That is the deeper issue here, and is what Waitangi day is really about. In this particular case, the Maori people are being racist by charging the media (white people) a fee to attend, while their own race can attend for free.

If our churches started charging Maori media to attend Christmas events, while letting white peoples media in for free, what do you think will happen? Guess who will be the first to play the race card.

[Fatt Max]

The only thing I like about 'White-Angry' Day is when a pollie gets hit in the kisser by a lump of poo....

Now that is funny......

By the way, if we are giving all this land back then where the fuck are my vintage firearms? I could get a few quid for them

[SMOKEU]

The only thing I like about 'White-Angry' Day is when a pollie gets hit in the kisser by a lump of poo....

Now that is funny......

By the way, if we are giving all this land back then where the fuck are my vintage firearms? I could get a few quid for them

Public land should be exactly that - it should be under the ownership of ALL NZ citizens, not a minority group.

[nosebleed]

These people are being perfectly reasonable. Here's a chance to make a buck out of mega-rich media outfits. What's not to like??


So there's a risk the media won't go and we won't have any news coverage...oh well, that's private enterprise, just have to suck it up. And watch Fox News :D

Exactly. Go, don't go, who gives a fuck? The irony is the media selling woe-is-me news stories about the media being hard done by.

For the last few years i've worked waitangi day anyway, but when I don't have to I've got better things to do on my day off than watch a televised meeting, christ if
that's what they want to broadcast come over to my workplace during the week and fill your boots. Theres a shit ton if meetings every day.

Just why the media expect a sympathetic ear is mind boggling, how many people are done a misservice by these corporations on a daily basis? And now they want to rally support?

Make the corporate decision and get on with it.

[avgas]

What we need is some good terror attacks.

That will fix our news good a proper.

[MisterD]

More of a sit down and lets take the day off cos its a holiday bro.

Q:What did Jesus say to the Maoris?

A:Stay there and don't do anything until I get back.

[avgas]

Q:What did Jesus say to the Maoris?

A:Stay there and don't do anything until I get back.
Q: What did Jesus say to the Christians?
A: Fuck knows - they forgot it and ended up remembering lines from Terminator 2 (I'll be back, I can not self-terminate.... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103064/quotes)

Q: What did Jesus say to Moses?
A: Get stoned man, its what god wants. If you listen you can hear his voice man.

[Number One]

Yup me too. Sick to death of it all.

I especially hate that I am supposed to feel guilty, and 'pay/make reparation' because of what some other white folks ancestors did hundreds of years ago.

I'm Bulgarian FFS why should I give a shit about all this palava anyway?

I resent the quota system in tertiary education and I resent all the bullshit that seems to go on and on and on and on and frankly I believe it all amounts to divisive nonsense now.

Oh and Hone can get fucked...I put him in the same basket with that Brian Tamaki twat...no good for our country! YES I dared say OUR even though I'm an import...get the fuck over it NZ

Seriously will NZ ever grow up?!

[lone_slayer]

Iam another against waitangi day (white-angry day has my vote) can we swap it for a national public day and call things even.... The maori seem to forget we gave them alot when we came they went from sticks to guns.... I think we should give them all the land back if they can give us an equal technological break through.... somthing everyone in the world can use and want..... Flying motorcycles sound right to me...

[MSTRS]

Yup me too. Sick to death of it all.

I especially hate that I am supposed to feel guilty, and 'pay/make reparation' because of what some other white folks ancestors did hundreds of years ago.

I'm Bulgarian FFS why should I give a shit about all this palava anyway?

I resent the quota system in tertiary education and I resent all the bullshit that seems to go on and on and on and on and frankly I believe it all amounts to divisive nonsense now.

Oh and Hone can get fucked...I put him in the same basket with that Brian Tamaki twat...no good for our country! YES I dared say OUR even though I'm an import...get the fuck over it NZ

Seriously will NZ ever grow up?!

Top post in this thread.

Relegate the whole 'treaty' thing to where it belongs. An outdated concept that should have no relevance today.
And while we're at it - shitcan the monarchy...

[lone_slayer]

Oh and on the flying motorcycles I think atleast 1 per person before they get any land... and they have to move my house somewhere new or get me a new house there either way ill make do

[Whynot]

Same thread ... different year.

[oldrider]

More importantly why hasn't this thread been sent to PD? :shit:

[superman]

Don't piss off the Maoris more. They'll just commit even more crime because they're angry they have lost their culture to black Americaness/are copying it, which involves higher rates of gangs/crime.

I asked one dude in a gangstered out car why he was copying black guys from America instead of being a happy go lucky BILLY T JAMES. He didn't even know who Billy T James was FFS! Talk about not knowing NZ culture, even from only a couple decades back.

I'm a born here import, (2 Swiss parents) though that's being a NZ'er. Since I grew up here, and you end up being most connected to the place you grew up, with dabbles of Swiss culture and a Swiss Passport (probably the place to bugger off to after Uni).

Agreed with giving them back land (all the Maoris who are a phenomenal 1/4 or 1/8 Maori by blood) and then taking away KFC. They'd come crawling back.

At Uni they get free laptops for just turning up! (That includes the 1/16ths who went to private schools...) Let alone if they'll even pass anything, and they usually end up taking stupid good for nothing BAs like all the women do (it's ok to mock women because they are more common in Uni... CAUSE THEY DO SILLY LITTLE BA's, honestly it should be a certificate not a degree!)

What they really should do, is use government funding to set up areas with Maori universities like other countries do. Give them a dose of their own culture so they don't copy AMERICANS! If you have a cultural identity (like us whities get!) then you'd feel more empowered to be educated. And then immerse them into the goodness of white culture (yay for corrupt police) and society would be much better for it. Then again teach someone too much about history of their oppression (like women studies) and then you end up with extremists like those feminists.

[george formby]

Pffffffft!

What are you all getting your knickers in a twist for? You should try living here at this time of year. As I post rent-a-mob is turning up. Over the next couple of days I will have some very intimidating people harassing me, whether they want something for free, don't like the cut of my jib or just like making a noise to impress their mates.

On the plus side I will also meet some educated, passionate & proud New Zealanders who are trying to find a voice for balance & for our future.

The revenue collected from the media is to aid the clean up after everybody leaves apparently. As I drove through Tii Bay this morning the whole beach was being cleaned, all the detritus from the weekends flooding has been piled up & it's looking sminky. The people doing the work appear to be volunteers, locals no doubt.

If the Marae needed financial assistance to host the celebrations I'm very suprised they decided to do something so inflammatory to get it.

[admenk]

I like the way how half these posts tell Maori to move on and get over it, and then those same posters go on to moan about Maori this, Maori that - just like they do on every post even mentioning the word Maori :innocent:

[Banditbandit]

If they would all just have normal time consuming jobs like the rest of us, they wouldn't have time to behave like clowns in a circus.

Are you talking about our MPs ???

[Banditbandit]

W(h)aitangi, surely.

No ... the name means "Crying Waters" Tangi is cry and Wai is water .. Whai means many things, the most common usage is Stingray

[Swoop]

...where the fuck are my vintage firearms? I could get a few quid for them
You'll have to send some norvern munkies up to the manor!

[avgas]

No ... the name means "Crying Waters" Tangi is cry and Wai is water .. Whai means many things, the most common usage is Stingray
There is a Steve Irwin joke in there somewhere - I swear.

[Gremlin]

Are you talking about our MPs ???
Them too... Anyone coming up with such half baked bullshit... I find myself sitting there going... who actually came up with this crap? Is that all they ever do? Why can't they get busy in a productive job, and leave the average working person alone? :facepalm:

[SMOKEU]

http://i54.tinypic.com/2lt6mhe.jpg

Before ya'll start giving me red rep for this, Waitangi Day is more or less Maori pride day - white people should also have our own day to express our heritage.

[lone_slayer]

I would just be happy if we all just considered ourselves 1 people... Stop the racisim and have everyone treated equally....
on that note i have an aunty who lives in a rural area her kids had to go to bording school and she had to pay. The family down the road were Maori and did not for the same schooling. I dont know anyone who in the same position would turn down that sort of goverment assistance maori or pakeha. another great example is during my uni days lots of friend were paying to become teachers, yet the goverment were paying maoris to do the same work.... wheres the equal opportunity there? And on my last note of the day I have not met a Maori who thinks our system is fair they know they get an extra hand out in some situations but they are not gonna ask the goverment to take it away.

[marie_speeds]

Before ya'll start giving me red rep for this, Waitangi Day is more or less Maori pride day - white people should also have our own day to express our heritage.

Better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt..... :facepalm:

[admenk]

Before ya'll start giving me red rep for this, Waitangi Day is more or less Maori pride day - white people should also have our own day to express our heritage.

Oh good, a burning cross - seen that before somewhere havn't we? Always a good image to show us white folks in a good light. That's part of my "white heritage" I'd rather not celebrate thanks:facepalm:

[Buyasta]

Before ya'll start giving me red rep for this, Waitangi Day is more or less Maori pride day - white people should also have our own day to express our heritage.
And what about those who belong to some other racial minority than Maori, what do they get?.. Obviously those of Jewish, Asian, or African descent won't be welcome at your white power rally.

[george formby]

I would just be happy if we all just considered ourselves 1 people... Stop the racisim and have everyone treated equally....
on that note i have an aunty who lives in a rural area her kids had to go to bording school and she had to pay. The family down the road were Maori and did not for the same schooling. I dont know anyone who in the same position would turn down that sort of goverment assistance maori or pakeha. another great example is during my uni days lots of friend were paying to become teachers, yet the goverment were paying maoris to do the same work.... wheres the equal opportunity there? And on my last note of the day I have not met a Maori who thinks our system is fair they know they get an extra hand out in some situations but they are not gonna ask the goverment to take it away.

Positive discrimination for the bleeding hearts.

Watching the news on the Maori channel last night it was heartening for me to see reporting which showed polar opposite Ngapuhi reactions to the Koha imposed on reporting from the Marae. One guy was justifying it for the clean up, another bloke was livid at the stupidity of it. Not a Pakeha perspective in sight. The apparent divisions cannot be laid solely at the door of race, opinions & disagreements are happening at a family & generational level in our communities.

If any group is to be pilloried it should (again) be the media for head lining what is the most shocking & entertaining :blink: rather than what affects the state of our Nation or even worse, decades of Government which has pandered to whichever group will vote & keep them in power, maintaining the political & social pendulum swinging & the Parliamentary / bureaucratic gravy train steaming along.

I'm not sick of Waitangi Day, it shows the best & worst aspects of New Zealand people, together or apart, but I am sick of small, very vocal groups using it as a soap box for their self serving, dead end agendas. It's the one day of the year that brats of any heritage can make a noise & somebody listens.
But I guess that is the price of democracy, warts & all.

For me Waitangi Day is a celebration of all New Zealanders, their achievements, failures, hopes & fears. We need it.

[marie_speeds]

I don't particularily like violence and war nor commemoration or celebration of it so I reckon get rid of Anzac Day too.....
Not particularly religious so Easter and Christmas has to go.........
Not part of a trade union so that rules out Labour Weekend....
and not really a rolyalist so lets get rid of Queens Birthday while we're at it..........

[Paul in NZ]

Without a doubt there are some serious issues that are still unresolved. Before everyone gets all het up you need to know that Maori were ripped off seriously by the govt of the day on many occasions and sometimes within living memory.

FFS - we get angry and ride to parliament over a few $$ - these poor cunts had millions of $$ stolen from them and are still pissed off about it... About the only way they can show that is via these dumb stunts.

HOWEVER - progress has been made and I think most agree that on the whole the govt is actually serious about addressing the issue. Thats something pretty special and should be applauded.

IMHO - we should keep Waitangi Day but not use it to celebrate out nationhood - we are now too diverse for such a day. Waitangi Day should be remembered and maybe it should be a day for maori and the Govt to measure and report on the progress made BUT we need a New Zealand Day - a day on a date with no history where we can ALL celebrate living in the best damn country on the planet!

[buellbabe]

Oh good, a burning cross - seen that before somewhere havn't we? Always a good image to show us white folks in a good light. That's part of my "white heritage" I'd rather not celebrate thanks:facepalm:

Theres no ferkin burning cross in MY heritage thankyou very much.

I'm just proud to call myself a kiwi.

And yep, I AM sick of the Waitangi Day bullshit, wasn't the treaty supposed to mark an 'end to hostilities' ??? What happened in the past should remain there.

Maybe I would feel differently if my ancestors had gotten a raw deal but the thing is that it wasn't ordinary NZrs ripping off the Maori of the time, it was the Government/ruling Monarchy.

[george formby]

Without a doubt there are some serious issues that are still unresolved. Before everyone gets all het up you need to know that Maori were ripped off seriously by the govt of the day on many occasions and sometimes within living memory.

FFS - we get angry and ride to parliament over a few $$ - these poor cunts had millions of $$ stolen from them and are still pissed off about it... About the only way they can show that is via these dumb stunts.

HOWEVER - progress has been made and I think most agree that on the whole the govt is actually serious about addressing the issue. Thats something pretty special and should be applauded.

IMHO - we should keep Waitangi Day but not use it to celebrate out nationhood - we are now too diverse for such a day. Waitangi Day should be remembered and maybe it should be a day for maori and the Govt to measure and report on the progress made BUT we need a New Zealand Day - a day on a date with no history where we can ALL celebrate living in the best damn country on the planet!

+1 Sminky idea.

[Banditbandit]

Before ya'll start giving me red rep for this, Waitangi Day is more or less Maori pride day - white people should also have our own day to express our heritage.

Waitangi Day remembers the day the Founding Document of our nation was signed . in 1835 the Declaration of Independence established, in international law, a new country called New Zealand - called that as a national name by the Maori signers ... five years later the Treaty of Waitangi established the modern nation as a partnership between Pakeha and Maori - it is NOT a Maori-pride day ...


Oh good, a burning cross - seen that before somewhere havn't we? Always a good image to show us white folks in a good light. That's part of my "white heritage" I'd rather not celebrate thanks:facepalm:

Yes, exactly ... thank you for that response

[Banditbandit]

And yep, I AM sick of the Waitangi Day bullshit, wasn't the treaty supposed to mark an 'end to hostilities' ??? What happened in the past should remain there.



That's a mis-conception. The hostilities started AFTER the Treaty was signed, because the white settlers failed to observe the treaty - treaty signed in 1840 - first hostile act 1844 - major New Zealand Wars around 1860 to 1900 ...

[admenk]

Theres no ferkin burning cross in MY heritage thankyou very much.

.

I know what you mean, but if you're white, then non whites will judge you by the actions of a few white nutters, same as we judge all muslims to Bin Ladin, all Maori to Hone Hawarera (havn't a clue on the spelling - sorry), all Americans to Bush and all us pommes to Blair, etc etc After all, cos we rides bikes, we must all be yobbo lawbreakers right?

[mashman]

I would just be happy if we all just considered ourselves 1 people... Stop the racisim and have everyone treated equally....


pretty much sums it up for me.

[lone_slayer]

That's a mis-conception. The hostilities started AFTER the Treaty was signed, because the white settlers failed to observe the treaty - treaty signed in 1840 - first hostile act 1844 - major New Zealand Wars around 1860 to 1900 ...

Well that sounds like a breach of contract to me... maybe they should go and sue the fellas who did that... oh wait they are all dead, lets just leave it at that...

[lone_slayer]

another question if i do something dodgy and later die can my children who had nothing to do with said dodgy shit get sued or made to pay for it? or better yet my grand or great grand children?

[Paul in NZ]

Well that sounds like a breach of contract to me... maybe they should go and sue the fellas who did that... oh wait they are all dead, lets just leave it at that...

So - you planning on stopping protesting about increases in ACC / rego after the next election?

[lone_slayer]

No!! but iam sure my great grand children wont be protesting about this specific change after iam dead

[lone_slayer]

I cant really see me on my death bed... complaing about a 60 year old change to my acc costs

[marie_speeds]

another question if i do something dodgy and later die can my children who had nothing to do with said dodgy shit get sued or made to pay for it? or better yet my grand or great grand children?

Ask IRD... apparently they have in the past tried to pass debt onto the next generation.

[superman]

That's a mis-conception. The hostilities started AFTER the Treaty was signed, because the white settlers failed to observe the treaty - treaty signed in 1840 - first hostile act 1844 - major New Zealand Wars around 1860 to 1900 ...

Exactly, the original chiefs knew that the whites would bring with them some great technological improvements. And they seemed to like marrying the women too. They were really passionate about improvements to Aotearoa and what would be good for their people. However they did end up getting snuffed and we're still paying for what the idiots did then.

Truly what should happen is NZ to become a republic. Would that not void the treaty as the crown would no longer be an overseer of the country? And then we could finally write a new piece of legislation, start over. Clean Slate

[marie_speeds]

What strikes me as funny is that the same people who complain about Waitangi Day and Maori are probably the same ones bitching and moaning to have Waitangi Day Monday-ised :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[steve_t]

What strikes me as funny is that the same people who complain about Waitangi Day and Maori are probably the same ones bitching and moaning to have Waitangi Day Monday-ised :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I have no doubt you are correct. They're also likely to be the ones that complain about EVERYTHING!

[ducatilover]

I have no doubt you are correct. They're also likely to be the ones that complain about EVERYTHING!

No I don't I hate generalizations :facepalm:
Oh wait, I'm complaining.


Who wants to hold hands and move our nation forward? I could do with some hand on hand action.

[Banditbandit]

another question if i do something dodgy and later die can my children who had nothing to do with said dodgy shit get sued or made to pay for it? or better yet my grand or great grand children?

I'm sorry, but the white people's religion sets up such a presidence in passages like this

"For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations ..." Exodus 20:5,6:

And in other verses as well ...

[Banditbandit]

Well that sounds like a breach of contract to me... maybe they should go and sue the fellas who did that... oh wait they are all dead, lets just leave it at that...

Hmmm ... you are assuming that breaches of the treaty no longer continue ...

[MSTRS]

Sorry, wrong. That is the Old Testament. And is the story of the Hebrews and their god. By the time of the NT, ol' Yahweh had mellowed somewhat...

[Banditbandit]

Sorry, wrong. That is the Old Testament. And is the story of the Hebrews and their god. By the time of the NT, ol' Yahweh had mellowed somewhat...

Yeah maybe .. but the God Botherers are ust as good as quoting the old testment as the new ... as it suits them

[admenk]

I'm sorry, but the white people's religion sets up such a presidence in passages like this

"For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations ..." Exodus 20:5,6:


Fail to see the connnection myself - plenty of people have used the bible (and loads of other things for that matter) as an excuse for their actions, but at the end of the day, the responsiblity was theirs alone.
Besides, I'm certainly no expert, but didn't some of the early missionaries stick up for Maori rights?

[admenk]

Yeah maybe .. but the God Botherers are ust as good as quoting the old testment as the new ... as it suits them

Oh dear, generalisations again. It's a good job not everyone judges all Maori the same eh? :innocent:

[Ocean1]

Exactly, the original chiefs knew that the whites would bring with them some great technological improvements. And they seemed to like marrying the women too. They were really passionate about improvements to Aotearoa and what would be good for their people.

Their biggest concern was the French, who had been making noises about formalising their plans for colonisation in the north. The chiefs weren’t stupid, they’d been dealing with the French missionaries for some time, if the French government assumed control there’s be no concessions at all.

Être intéressant de savoir comment étroite qui vint à une réalité.

[MisterD]

Truly what should happen is NZ to become a republic. Would that not void the treaty as the crown would no longer be an overseer of the country? And then we could finally write a new piece of legislation, start over. Clean Slate

Nope. For all practical purposes "The Crown" means the elected government of the country, that won't change if (when) we become a republic.

[BoristheBiter]

Waitangi Day remembers the day the Founding Document of our nation was signed . in 1835 the Declaration of Independence established, in international law, a new country called New Zealand - called that as a national name by the Maori signers ... five years later the Treaty of Waitangi established the modern nation as a partnership between Pakeha and Maori - it is NOT a Maori-pride day ...



Yes, exactly ... thank you for that response

I think you that mixed up with the USA.
The treaty is not a founding document, nor was there a declaration of independence as we still the the queen as head of state.

As for this partnership, when do the Maoris start working?
Very one sided if you ask me.

The treaty should be scrapped as both sides have reneged at some point but Maori will never let it go because they still think they are owed something.

And anyway we had a flag.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTduy7Qkvk8

[Banditbandit]

I think you that mixed up with the USA.
The treaty is not a founding document, nor was there a declaration of independence as we still the the queen as head of state.

As for this partnership, when do the Maoris start working?
Very one sided if you ask me.

The treaty should be scrapped as both sides have reneged at some point but Maori will never let it go because they still think they are owed something.

And anyway we had a flag.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTduy7Qkvk8

Declaration of Independence signed at Waitangi in 1835

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/background-to-the-treaty/declaration-of-independence

Signed by a group calling themselves The United Tribes of New Zealand ... it is THIS Maori document which establishes the british monarchy as our head of state ...

Five years later the Treaty of Waitangi was signed by the British Crown representastives and the United Tribes of New Zealand - a direct reference to the Declaration of Independence.

At least have a working knowledge of our history before you open your mouth ...

[ducatilover]

I think you that mixed up with the USA.
The treaty is not a founding document, nor was there a declaration of independence as we still the the queen as head of state.




http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/background-to-the-treaty/declaration-of-independence

1835, the Maori signed a declaration of independence, to become an independent nation to help with trading overseas, as they had vested plenty of interest in making money and peers in other countries.

Well, that's only what my tutor for my last Waitangi paper told me :innocent:

[ducatilover]

Shit, banditbandit has beaten me to it.

[avgas]

Coulda been worse y'all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Nanjing

[Banditbandit]

Shit, banditbandit has beaten me to it.

Cher bro .. told ya we were here first ... He mihi ki a koe ...

[MSTRS]

.. told ya we were here first ...

I understand that is a subject of debate...:innocent:

[SMOKEU]

Obviously those of Jewish, Asian, or African descent won't be welcome at your white power rally.

There is a huge difference between white supremacy/white power and white pride.

[Latte]

There is a huge difference between white supremacy/white power and white pride.


One's a thinly veiled attempt to lead people to the other?

[SMOKEU]

One's a thinly veiled attempt to lead people to the other?

White pride means that someone is proud of being white and not ashamed of their heritage, however, they are also tolerant of people from other racial backgrounds.

White supremacists are the kind of people who hate everyone who isn't white.

Is that clear enough?

[Buyasta]

There is a huge difference between white supremacy/white power and white pride.

Indeed, there may well be such a thing as white pride that has nothing to do with racism, however given the sheer amount of overt racism contained in many of your posts, combined with the burning cross motif of image you posted, it seems fairly clear that both you and this meeting are about white supremacy, not white pride.

[jaffamont]

There is a huge difference between white supremacy/white power and white pride.

Given the picture you have on your profile I'm guessing you have the two mixed up as the same thing.. Really what does a swastika have to do with white pride? White supremacy yes, but not pride.

[SMOKEU]

Indeed, there may well be such a thing as white pride that has nothing to do with racism, however given the sheer amount of overt racism contained in many of your posts, combined with the burning cross motif of image you posted, it seems fairly clear that both you and this meeting are about white supremacy, not white pride.

I am not racist, because racism is a crime, and crime is for black people!

Seriously though, I have Asian and black African friends, so I can't be that racist.


Given the picture you have on your profile I'm guessing you have the two mixed up as the same thing.. Really what does a swastika have to do with white pride? White supremacy yes, but not pride.

The presence of the swastika on my profile is not indicative of my views regarding any particular ethnic group. Any affiliation the swastika may have regarding those ideologies is purely coincidental.

[Kickaha]

The presence of the swastika on my profile is not indicative of my views regarding any particular ethnic group. Any affiliation the swastika may have regarding those ideologies is purely coincidental.

Tui anyone?

So explain the 1488 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words) then?

[SMOKEU]

Tui anyone?

So explain the 1488 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words) then?

I was unaware of the significance of the 14 words which you are referring to. Have a look at this link for more information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farm_to_Market_Road_1488

[Kickaha]

I was unaware of the significance of the 14 words which you are referring to. Have a look at this link for more information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farm_to_Market_Road_1488


:lol: good try but you'd have to be a right dumb cunt if you thought anyone would believe that :facepalm:

[BoristheBiter]

Declaration of Independence signed at Waitangi in 1835

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/background-to-the-treaty/declaration-of-independence

Signed by a group calling themselves The United Tribes of New Zealand ... it is THIS Maori document which establishes the british monarchy as our head of state ...

Five years later the Treaty of Waitangi was signed by the British Crown representastives and the United Tribes of New Zealand - a direct reference to the Declaration of Independence.

At least have a working knowledge of our history before you open your mouth ...

So who are they independent from? How could they be independent if they took the British monarchy as the head of state?

Seem very dependent on welfare, booze and drugs, and handouts from the government.

And when have the tribes since then agreed to anything, even their party can't get their shit together.

[Teflon]

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1-mkk8WTbu4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Katman]

I was unaware of the significance of the 14 words which you are referring to. Have a look at this link for more information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farm_to_Market_Road_1488

:killingme

Then you sure are one dumb fuck of a Nazi, aren't you?

I suppose you didn't realise your signature quote was one of Hitler's either.

[SMOKEU]

:killingme

Then you're one dumb fuck of a Nazi, aren't you?

I suppose you also didn't realise your signature quote was one of Hitler's.

I am certainly not a Nazi™. My signature is for informative purposes only and bears no relevance to my opinion of persons who are part of a racial minority, in this country or otherwise.

[Banditbandit]

So who are they independent from? How could they be independent if they took the British monarchy as the head of state?

And when have the tribes since then agreed to anything, even their party can't get their shit together.

The intent was not to declare independence from anyone .. the point was to establish a new country - and under international law the declaration achieved that as it was recognised by the USA, by Britain and by France ...

Shit - when have Pakeha agreed on everything - don't even have one party ... to much disagreement so lets create a lot of parties ..

[Banditbandit]

I am certainly not a Nazi™. My signature is for informative purposes only and bears no relevance to my opinion of persons who are part of a racial minority, in this country or otherwise.

You're one dumb fuck Nazi if that's the best you can do .. and expect us to believe it ..

[Banditbandit]

Can I make a suggestion ....

Try to watch as much of Maori TV's Waitangi Day coverage as you can. You will see a different approach then I think most of you will expect - and you will see what we, as Maori, want to say about our country and it's history ....

You will see a different idea of what our multi-cultural country is and can be ... watch particularly from 4.30 onwards ...

A hint .... Maori TV are promoting it as "One Nation, Many Cultures."

Most of what you all know about any of this has come through the Pakeha media - and that presents divisions and conflict ... Maori TV will show you what the majority of us think about the Treaty - and it will be different to what you expect.

I will post something early next week - in the Not the Scottish Thread (where I have been getting close to what I want o say there) - wathcing Maori TV coverage on Waitangi Day will greatly help because ti will show you things that I haven't got the space to do here ...

[BoristheBiter]

The intent was not to declare independence from anyone .. the point was to establish a new country - and under international law the declaration achieved that as it was recognised by the USA, by Britain and by France ...

Shit - when have Pakeha agreed on everything - don't even have one party ... to much disagreement so lets create a lot of parties ..


I notice you haven't disagreed with the rest of my post though.

[Banditbandit]

I notice you haven't disagreed with the rest of my post though.

I just ignored it ... I chose not to engage in that debate ...

[imdying]

There you go SmokeU... let this be a lesson to you... you're all like, "But I'm innocent bro!", and they're all like, "Rubbish, you're lying!"... so now you know what it's like to be a nigger in this world. Food for thought.

[MisterD]

I am certainly not a Nazi™. My signature is for informative purposes only and bears no relevance to my opinion of persons who are part of a racial minority, in this country or otherwise.

Not related to that dumb bint in the Hutt with the "ARYAN 1" plate (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4090257/Aryan1-owners-white-supremacy-links) are you by any chance?

[BoristheBiter]

I just ignored it ... I chose not to engage in that debate ...

bugger, that means i will have to go and do some work.

Your not as easy to wind up as you used to be.:innocent:

laters

[SMOKEU]

There you go SmokeU... let this be a lesson to you... you're all like, "But I'm innocent bro!", and they're all like, "Rubbish, you're lying!"... so now you know what it's like to be a nigger in this world. Food for thought.

That's a very good point.

[nosebleed]

I was unaware of the significance of the 14 words which you are referring to. Have a look at this link for more information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farm_to_Market_Road_1488

Damn. I spent too long looking for the spit-take emoticon.
Now I see you've changed your sig to a poncey Family Guy image.

[avgas]

Given the picture you have on your profile I'm guessing you have the two mixed up as the same thing.. Really what does a swastika have to do with white pride? White supremacy yes, but not pride.
Same could be said for this really...
230897

Considering half of all Maori never support this flag. I have even heard of those whom named it "Maori Elitist".

Turns out every race has a bunch of fuck wits. Some take pride in stupid things.

[Banditbandit]

Same could be said for this really...
230897

Considering half of all Maori never support this flag. I have even heard of those whom named it "Maori Elitist".

Turns out every race has a bunch of fuck wits. Some take pride in stupid things.

Yes. Every race ....

But sorry, the image won't load. I'm pretty sure you will have one of these .. just not sure which one ...

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/files/images/stories/foc/foc-013.jpg

http://flagspot.net/images/n/nz_mtino.gif

[Gremlin]

bottom one banditbandit

[admenk]

I've always thought that the top flag (the original one I think?) would be a good one to chose if NZ decides to replace the current one. Mind you, I'm a Brit, so I do accept that even that flag with it's red cross looks similar to the St Georges flag and therefor may have colonial undertones for some in NZ. Was it designed with that in mind or was that just a coincidence?

[Banditbandit]

bottom one banditbandit

Ok .. a Maori radical mate, who's named you'd recognise but I won't use - said of that flag "It's got no Kaha!" (Kaha is power or strength) When I asked him why he said "It's a limp dick!" .. I laughed and can no longer look at that flag without thinking that.

It's a very Maori way of looking at it, as the erect penis is a symbol of power/life force ... and I have to admit, the "dick" in the flag is dropping downwards ...

No, we don't all accept that as a "Maori" flag.


I've always thought that the top flag (the original one I think?) would be a good one to chose if NZ decides to replace the current one. Mind you, I'm a Brit, so I do accept that even that flag with it's red cross looks similar to the St Georges flag and therefor may have colonial undertones for some in NZ. Was it designed with that in mind or was that just a coincidence?

I'm not sure of the background to the design of that flag. It was the flag adopted by the United Tribes of New Zealand and the one refered to in the Declaration of Independence. One of the major reasons was so there was a New Zealand flag to fly on our ships - as any ship at that time without a flag of country was considered a Pirate Ship. This gave us a flag to indentify our ships - being largely Maori ships at that time. Pakeha-owned ships most usually had British, American or European country-of-registration flags.

[oldrider]

Actually as a flag I quite like the "so called" (or claimed by some) Maori flag! :yes:

[Banditbandit]

Actually as a flag I quite like the "so called" (or claimed by some) Maori flag! :yes:

It's generally known as the Tino Rangatiratanga Flag ...

[avgas]

80% of my family was not here before the first one (dunno about the other 20% - but suspect not).
Our boats had this flag
http://www.splash.co.nz/site/pinnaclev/images/items/Dive%20Flag.1.jpg

and my family was already working with / semi inducted with the local Maori fella's well before that flag was public. Especially me old man, growing up round Turangi and working for MOW.

however on the note of flags - I do remember this one being around when I was a young fella.
230904
Was it a union one? Who can tell me what the story is behind it.
Old man kept his mouth shut and did his job.

[MSTRS]

Ok .. a Maori radical mate, who's named you'd recognise but I won't use - said of that flag "It's got no Kaha!" (Kaha is power or strength) When I asked him why he said "It's a limp dick!" .. I laughed and can no longer look at that flag without thinking that.



To me, that flag has other overtones. Or undertones, if you will.
A white minority being crushed between Black Power and Mongrel Mob...

[avgas]

To me, that flag has other overtones. Or undertones, if you will.
A white minority being crushed between Black Power and Mongrel Mob...
Or that we are all white on the inside lol
Creamy centre if you wish

[admenk]

To me, that flag has other overtones. Or undertones, if you will.
A white minority being crushed between Black Power and Mongrel Mob...

Blimey, that's a depressing way of looking at it !

[awa355]

In today's Herald there is an article by Jim Hopkins about the colour of people and how little it really means. Makes good reading

[nosebleed]

Ok .. a Maori radical mate, who's named you'd recognise but I won't use - said of that flag "It's got no Kaha!" (Kaha is power or strength) When I asked him why he said "It's a limp dick!" .. I laughed and can no longer look at that flag without thinking that.

It's a very Maori way of looking at it, as the erect penis is a symbol of power/life force ... and I have to admit, the "dick" in the flag is dropping downwards ...

No, we don't all accept that as a "Maori" flag.

So really its just a Maori Rorschach test.
I don't see any dicks in the image

[oldrider]

Hey guy's we are after all a very young country and if it's worth anything it's worth sorting out!

What we really need right now is a really threatening clearly identifiable common enemy threatening us to drive us back together again!

Life was shit hot following WW2 our world was full of love and respect.

It will only get back like that if we "all" work on it together and be a little thoughtful of what we think and say to one another, not being PC but honest and open discussion.

We need each other to make this country work properly and we need this country to identify our place in the world and I am proud to be totally committed to that! :yes:

Adage: A country that doesn't make mistakes is probably not making anything!

[Skyryder]

Hey guy's we are after all a very young country and if it's worth anything it's worth sorting out!

What we really need right now is a really threatening clearly identifiable common enemy threatening us to drive us back together again!

Life was shit hot following WW2 our world was full of love and respect.

It will only get back like that if we "all" work on it together and be a little thoughtful of what we think and say to one another, not being PC but honest and open discussion.

We need each other to make this country work properly and we need this country to identify our place in the world and I am proud to be totally committed to that! :yes:

Adage: A country that doesn't make mistakes is probably not making anything!

Could not agree more but if you see my last Post KEY COMES OUT all Key is doing is making our country a laughing stock. As for Team New Zealand.....:shit: all I can say is go for it Robbie.:love:

Skyyrder

[Number One]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4621920/Activists-abuse-Key-at-Waitangi

[FJRider]

As have I Number One ... but in the "free" society we all enjoy, they (as we are/do) are entitled to protest at what they believe to be wrong. As a general rule ... majority rules. Minoritys suffer ... regardless of merit/justification of the protest.

Some ... as in your example ... have views that will be seen by the majority ... as bullshit. His "Uncle Hone" may not have the political clout (anymore) to be of much help to him either ...

[tri boy]

Could not agree more but if you see my last Post KEY COMES OUT all Key is doing is making our country a laughing stock.

Skyyrder


Like that buck tooth maggot did in the wearable arts fiasco?
And the blatant art deception?
Key was just hamming it up for an appreciative crowd.
Derr Clerke lied about her art skills.
Next.

[98tls]

Hey guy's we are after all a very young country and if it's worth anything it's worth sorting out!



Adage: A country that doesn't make mistakes is probably not making anything!

Correct as far as this country goes John,the same ones keep whinging n wanting,the same ones keep getting somewhat similar to a spoilt child methinks,a simple "no" would go a long way to "sorting out".

[Bald Eagle]

The good news is it's the 7th of Feb now so we can forget all this bs for another year. :facepalm:

[oldrider]

Correct as far as this country goes John,the same ones keep whinging n wanting,the same ones keep getting somewhat similar to a spoilt child methinks,a simple "no" would go a long way to "sorting out".

The one thing I enjoy about Waitangi day is, that it reminds me of all the other really nice Maori citizens who are just getting on with life, looking after their kids and generally contributing to society!

The rest of the year we only hear about the deadbeats with less than honourable intentions screaming, ME Me Me Me!

The loudest so called Maori "leaders" telling everybody else to fuck off etc are of very mixed blood, have changed their name to sound Maori and claim to represent "our people"!

The press never challenge their right to represent and quote them without question regardless of what they say, who is at fault here?

Personally I am happy with the Maori party so far but then again I am not Maori!

The subject of the thread, Waitangi day?, it will survive and prosper and so will New Zealand!

Like the man in the cheese advertisements generally says, "Good things take time"! :yes:

[Banditbandit]

The loudest so called Maori "leaders" telling everybody else to fuck off etc are of very mixed blood, have changed their name to sound Maori and claim to represent "our people"!

The press never challenge their right to represent and quote them without question regardless of what they say, who is at fault here?



These people are not "leaders". The press holds them up as that, but they are not our leaders.

The fact that the press holds them up as leaders creates many problems for us ... one being that Pakeha New Zealand thinks these people speak for us. They do not.

[avgas]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4621920/Activists-abuse-Key-at-Waitangi
I dunno.
Made me laugh a little with his yelling about how "Mari" are mistreated.
Bloody hell

[avgas]

These people are not "leaders". The press holds them up as that, but they are not our leaders.

The fact that the press holds them up as leaders creates many problems for us ... one being that Pakeha New Zealand thinks these people speak for us. They do not.
Well put.
But I suppose that is politics. Put a bunch of people that no one really likes into a place where they represent us.

[Banditbandit]

I dunno.
Made me laugh a little with his yelling about how "Mari" are mistreated.
Bloody hell

Hmmm ... have a look at what some members of KB call us and think about us ... then try to argue that we are not mistrated in our own land ...

[avgas]

Hmmm ... have a look at what some members of KB call us and think about us ... then try to argue that we are not mistrated in our own land ...
Et tu brutus?
Nah its not like that.
Truth be told - KB abuses everything, including honda riders. So can't really be put in context.

But its the age old saying "If you stick your head out of the trench - your bound to be shot".

Doesn't matter if your black wanting stuff for free, Irish with 20 kids, white with 20 mil in the bank......

don't expect to not be shot if you stick you head out. Swallow that pride and get back down here with the rest of us. Together we can dig a way out of this.

[SPman]

These people are not "leaders". The press holds them up as that, but they are not our leaders.

The fact that the press holds them up as leaders creates many problems for us ... one being that Pakeha New Zealand thinks these people speak for us. They do not.
...which shows you the quality of the press.......

[Dean]

Im happy to see New Zealand move forward as a one people :). Hone Harawira is totally ruining it for other Maori like myself in New Zealand. Ive been brought up as a Half cast as all other Maori are, I embrace my Maori and Pakeha heritage. We benefit and enjoy greatly from the mixing with Pakeha:yes:. Especially with the beautiful Pakeha women:innocent: ohhhh we really do, you know it banditbandit! Im taking one for the team bro ;)!

[Teflon]

Hmmm ... have a look at what some members of KB call us and think about us ... then try to argue that we are not mistrated in our own land ...

Like:: Niggers, Niglets, Darkies,, Shitskins.. and brown cunts

I think it's fucking disgusting.

[SMOKEU]

These people are not "leaders". The press holds them up as that, but they are not our leaders.

The fact that the press holds them up as leaders creates many problems for us ... one being that Pakeha New Zealand thinks these people speak for us. They do not.

Well, who are your leaders then?

[JimO]

Hmmm ... have a look at what some members of KB call us and think about us ... then try to argue that we are not mistrated in our own land ...

in your own land?? you lot are immigrants as well arnt ya or is all the canoe stories bullshit!!

[BMWST?]

Seriously will NZ ever grow up?!

what grow up like Europe and have all out wars and genocide about events that happened in the olden days.....no thanks i prefer our slightly wimpish PC ways

[oldrider]

in your own land?? you lot are immigrants as well arnt ya or is all the canoe stories bullshit!!

Anybody who officially swears allegiance and accepts full New Zealand citizenship is a person of the land, as are those that were born here!

The only (unimportant) difference is how or when we got here! (That is individual heritage and history)

Personally, I have reservations about people who have dual citizenship with another country just as to where their loyalty actually lays but I guess that is for them to decide!

Everything else is sorted according to New Zealand law, like it or lump it! :yes:

[Indiana_Jones]

http://pix.alaporte.net/pub/d/15830-1/Maori+Statue.JPG

STATUE BRO?!

-Indy

[Paul in NZ]

People - all people - need to be very careful about 'revolutions of the people' and independance (what ever that is....) It tends to open windows for radical idiots who rapidly become doctrine driven tyrants...

[Banditbandit]

in your own land?? you lot are immigrants as well arnt ya or is all the canoe stories bullshit!!


Anybody who officially swears allegiance and accepts full New Zealand citizenship is a person of the land, as are those that were born here!

The only (unimportant) difference is how or when we got here! (That is individual heritage and history)

Personally, I have reservations about people who have dual citizenship with another country just as to where their loyalty actually lays but I guess that is for them to decide!

Everything else is sorted according to New Zealand law, like it or lump it! :yes:

Kia ora ... what he said ... we are all in our own land ...

[Banditbandit]

Well, who are your leaders then?

Hmmm .. our leaders do tend to sit in the background ... go to any marae near you and see who actually stands up to speak on the pae .. then you will see the leaders for your area ...

[Banditbandit]

Im happy to see New Zealand move forward as a one people :). Hone Harawira is totally ruining it for other Maori like myself in New Zealand. Ive been brought up as a Half cast as all other Maori are, I embrace my Maori and Pakeha heritage. We benefit and enjoy greatly from the mixing with Pakeha:yes:. Especially with the beautiful Pakeha women:innocent: ohhhh we really do, you know it banditbandit! Im taking one for the team bro ;)!

:rofl: Yeah ... but I have found, in general terms, our women are better in bed .. but don't tell the Pakeha or they'll try to steal our women too ...

[BoristheBiter]

Hmmm .. our leaders do tend to sit in the background ... go to any marae near you and see who actually stands up to speak on the pae .. then you will see the leaders for your area ...

Is that those places where all the gang members go?

Or is that a pa?

I think you need to treat these dumb fucks that stand up and start spouting off the same way we treat the white power dickheads.

[BoristheBiter]

:rofl: Yeah ... but I have found, in general terms, our women are better in bed .. but don't tell the Pakeha or they'll try to steal our women too ...

Fuck no, i'm more scared of them than you guys.

[admenk]

:rofl: Yeah ... but I have found, in general terms, our women are better in bed .. but don't tell the Pakeha or they'll try to steal our women too ...

I'll trade you a musket for one :innocent:

(I apologise in advance!...)

[avgas]

:rofl: Yeah ... but I have found, in general terms, our women are better in bed .. but don't tell the Pakeha or they'll try to steal our women too ...
Meh why get the descendants of goddesses when you can import the originals
http://reallycuteasians.com/
:corn::innocent::love:

[SMOKEU]

Hmmm .. our leaders do tend to sit in the background ... go to any marae near you and see who actually stands up to speak on the pae .. then you will see the leaders for your area ...

WTF is this 'pae' thing you speak so highly of?

[Banditbandit]

Is that those places where all the gang members go?

Or is that a pa?

I think you need to treat these dumb fucks that stand up and start spouting off the same way we treat the white power dickheads.


WTF is this 'pae' thing you speak so highly of?


The pae (or paepae) is the place of formal speaking in front of a meeting house on the marae ... that's were our leaders speak and debate


Fuck no, i'm more scared of them than you guys.

Ya woose ... they're just women (mind you, I know some pretty fearsome Pakehaa women too ... )


I'll trade you a musket for one :innocent:

(I apologise in advance!...)

Naaa .. if we are going to make jokes there's no nead to apologize (unless it's SmokeU making his dumb racist jokes .. )

[BoristheBiter]

The pae (or paepae) is the place of formal speaking in front of a meeting house on the marae ... that's were our leaders speak and debat
. )


Cheers for that. I knew Pa was not what you where meaning but thought paepae was just a bench, any bench.

[SMOKEU]

Naaa .. if we are going to make jokes there's no nead to apologize (unless it's SmokeU making his dumb racist jokes .. )

I don't make racist jokes!

[Banditbandit]

I don't make racist jokes!

Yeah ??? What's this from the Harawiri proud of his nephew's protest thread ...


http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/c/c8/Bitchin_rap_nigga.jpg

[JimO]

Yeah ??? What's this from the Harawiri proud of his nephew's protest thread ...

whats racist about that?? at least he didnt say he wouldnt want his daughter bringing home a maori

[SMOKEU]

Yeah ??? What's this from the Harawiri proud of his nephew's protest thread ...

If you ever listen to rap music produced by black people you'll know that a lot of it is just "nigga this, nigga that".

[jaffamont]

If you ever listen to rap music produced by black people you'll know that a lot of it is just "nigga this, nigga that".

You really are one confused ingnorant little prick! My guess is you have no idea who the fuck you are. Man up and own what you do.

[JimO]

You really are one confused ingnorant little prick! My guess is you have no idea who the fuck you are. Man up and own what you do.

tut tut no need to get personal

[SMOKEU]

You really are one confused ingnorant little prick! My guess is you have no idea who the fuck you are. Man up and own what you do.

I'm not confused about anything at the moment, and I am well aware of my identity. Do you care to further elaborate upon your last sentence regarding "Man up"?

PS: There is no need to phucking swear at me.

[jaffamont]

tut tut no need to get personal

Sorry......I've just always found it really difficult to call someone a "prick" in a nice kind of way.

[jaffamont]

I'm not confused about anything at the moment, and I am well aware of my identity. Do you care to further elaborate upon your last sentence regarding "Man up"?

PS: There is no need to phucking swear at me.

Yeah if you are a racist just admit it and get on with it. And be prepared to defend it.

[SMOKEU]

Yeah if you are a racist just admit it and get on with it. And be prepared to defend it.

Since when do I have to explain myself to you?

[98tls]

This racist thing,is that with an H or not?No offence intended just want to get it right.

[MSTRS]

I suppose if you're Oirish you may want to drop the 'h'...
"Tis racist ting..."

[Banditbandit]

whats racist about that?? at least he didnt say he wouldnt want his daughter bringing home a maori

Is that a serious question? I just don't believe anyone can be that ignorant.


If you ever listen to rap music produced by black people you'll know that a lot of it is just "nigga this, nigga that".

Yeah .. we get to call ourselves to ourselves whatever we like ... but ignorant white pricks like you don't get that privilege.

[Banditbandit]

Since when do I have to explain myself to you?

You don't have to explain ... just change ..

[Dean]

at least he didnt say he wouldnt want his daughter bringing home a maori

ahh I have had too many of these confrontations/greetings. The fathers are usually alrite with me being Maori..well Half. When I told one girls parents I was Italian they totally embraced me into their home and even encouraged we were in a room alone, I know:gob:.

Smokeu is not a racist, he's actually a good guy. We sorta keep in contact.

[Banditbandit]

Smokeu is not a racist, he's actually a good guy. We sorta keep in contact.

Well, he certainly comes across as one ...

[BoristheBiter]

Yeah .. we get to call ourselves to ourselves whatever we like ... but ignorant white pricks like you don't get that privilege.


I know i will quote this wrong as i can't find the actual quote from MLK jnr.

No word is offensive. it only becomes offensive in regards to context and meaning, but it takes a strong man (or it doesn't take a strong man)to give it no meaning at all.

Or something like that.

It's a bit like "sticks and stones"

[marie_speeds]

You don't have to explain ... just change ..

You'll have to wait for his voice to break first..... :laugh:

[Paul in NZ]

Hone can have any opinion he wants - its one of the good things that happened because of our history but dear god PLEASE - would someone tell him that regardless of race, clour, culture or creed, it is NOT cool, nor has it EVER been OK to not wear a tie properly....

[Banditbandit]

Hone can have any opinion he wants - its one of the good things that happened because of our history but dear god PLEASE - would someone tell him that regardless of race, clour, culture or creed, it is NOT cool, nor has it EVER been OK to not wear a tie properly....

:rofl: Are you expecting us to live by Pākehā dress standards and codes???? Another cultural imperialist !!!!

[admenk]

Hone can have any opinion he wants - its one of the good things that happened because of our history but dear god PLEASE - would someone tell him that regardless of race, clour, culture or creed, it is NOT cool, nor has it EVER been OK to not wear a tie properly....

.....maybe if it was just that bit tighter? :innocent:

[Banditbandit]

.....maybe if it was just that bit tighter? :innocent:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Bling sent

[avgas]

:rofl: Are you expecting us to live by Pākehā dress standards and codes???? Another cultural imperialist !!!!
Nope you can wear what you like.
However if you want to dress like a white dandy go right ahead.
But no one will force you to dress like one.

[Camshaft]

Maori's in specific, but all blacks are the most racist people around. yer waitangi shit needs to be let go by those fukwits

[Teflon]

:rofl: Yeah ... but I have found, in general terms, our women are better in bed .. but don't tell the Pakeha or they'll try to steal our women too ...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xkDJvMcNgCQ" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="390" width="480"></iframe>

Maori foreplay?

[JimO]

old jake knows how to show a woman a good time, had a american tell me once he liked the Once were warriors movie, i told him its a documentary mate

[BoristheBiter]

old jake knows how to show a woman a good time, had a american tell me once he liked the Once were warriors movie, i told him its a documentary mate

It was, wasn't it?

[SMOKEU]

It was, wasn't it?

It certainly wasn't fictitious.

[Paul in NZ]

:rofl: Are you expecting us to live by Pākehā dress standards and codes???? Another cultural imperialist !!!!

Nah - he can wear what he likes but the real point is that he HAS to wear a jacket and tie in the debating chamber so he does that shit with his tie just to show us all what a stauch as rebel he is.... Its tragic... If I was asked to participate at a function on a marae people would laugh at me for cocking up the protocols or muffing my lines - right up to the point where if they thought I was doing it deliberately to take the piss, then they would be rightly offended... In this case Mr H is the petty cultural imperialist...

The whole thing is a bloody attention seeking beat up and about advancing HIS own ego. It does nothing for our country or his 'people'... Its bloody sad...

[Banditbandit]

Nah - he can wear what he likes but the real point is that he HAS to wear a jacket and tie in the debating chamber so he does that shit with his tie just to show us all what a stauch as rebel he is.... Its tragic... If I was asked to participate at a function on a marae people would laugh at me for cocking up the protocols or muffing my lines - right up to the point where if they thought I was doing it deliberately to take the piss, then they would be rightly offended... In this case Mr H is the petty cultural imperialist...

The whole thing is a bloody attention seeking beat up and about advancing HIS own ego. It does nothing for our country or his 'people'... Its bloody sad...

Yes, I'm not pleased with our people who insist that others follow our kawa ... then do not show the same respect for the norms and protocols of other cultures ... we're not all like that ...

[Paul in NZ]

Yes, I'm not pleased with our people who insist that others follow our kawa ... then do not show the same respect for the norms and protocols of other cultures ... we're not all like that ...

By we I hope you mean the global we.... Because we aint all like 'that' either...

My daughters did a lot of Maori and Pacific papers (which I edited and reviewed etc) and I have to say I really enjoyed them. I've been reading a lot of NZ history too and its really interesting how my opinions have changed as I've gained knowledge. I've always been fascinated in why things happened as much as in how...

Maori and Pakeha both need to wake up and unify if they want to hand our little slice of paradise to our kids...

[admenk]

Maori and Pakeha both need to wake up and unify if they want to hand our little slice of paradise to our kids...

Trouble is, it seems to me that there are some on each side who make a whole career and comfortable living, out of making sure everyone is not unified.
Maybe if we sent them off to an island somewhere, the rest of us could get on quite happily, recognising and celebrating our differences on some issues and uniting on others.....or am I being a bit thick?

[Paul in NZ]

...or am I being a bit thick?

Nah - just unrealistic...

We need to keep an open mind though - Ghandi was a bit of a trouble maker but he kinda worked out pretty good.

[mashman]

Trouble is, it seems to me that there are some on each side who make a whole career and comfortable living, out of making sure everyone is not unified.
Maybe if we sent them off to an island somewhere, the rest of us could get on quite happily, recognising and celebrating our differences on some issues and uniting on others.....or am I being a bit thick?

A death match perhaps? Conquerer rules :)

[R-Soul]

What we really need right now is a really threatening clearly identifiable common enemy threatening us to drive us back together again!




Don't the Aussies count? :shit:

[Bald Eagle]

Trouble is, it seems to me that there are some on each side who make a whole career and comfortable living, out of making sure everyone is not unified.
Maybe if we sent them off to an island somewhere, the rest of us could get on quite happily, recognising and celebrating our differences on some issues and uniting on others.....or am I being a bit thick?

Trouble is they already got sent to an island, ( well actually two ) and they had to row all the way .:facepalm:

[R-Soul]

five years later the Treaty of Waitangi established the modern nation as a partnership between Pakeha and Maori -


Forgive my lack of local history. i have heard that Maori's were not happy because it was not really a "partnership" as they expected. But I understand that a true partnership in those days would have involved both the white governors and Maori kings/chiefs taking joint decisions together, and Maoris and Pakeha's living separate lives apart from each other? Am i right? So, in other words, a separate system with separate rules and laws for the Maoris /Pakeha in which everybody coexists? And keeping the Maori cultures and traditions alive in separate areas? But this sounds a bit like apartheid TBH...

And this is what the exremists still want? If this is true - I have to question whether most modern Maori (at least the ones that I have met) would want to still be subject to a local monarch or chief (I understand there was no Paramount chief to speak of? I may be wrong)? With no vote?

My feeling is that if the modern Maori want to be free Maori with a vote, and living in a modern demorcratic system, then they should stop this pushing for a 'return to Maori ways', and join the rest of us in society as equals...

Also, I undertand that in the past, in traditional Maori culture the women were expected to be subservient to the men, and did not have much say in most things? Again, I dont know a helluva lot abouut Maori culture... but I somehow doubt whether most modern Maori women would want to return to this little aspect of Maoriness?

I agree that where land and stuff was taken away from communities, resulting in large scale destitution, this should be returned - but again it is problematic in that how do urban 1/16th Maori's lay claim to their share?

Eventually, at some stage, someone has to call time on how much reparations are going to go on. Because there will always be more hands outstretched, wanting more, and having some sort of angle.

[Banditbandit]

Forgive my lack of local history. i have heard that Maori's were not happy because it was not really a "partnership" as they expected. But I understand that a true partnership in those days would have involved both the white governors and Maori kings/chiefs taking joint decisions together, and Maoris and Pakeha's living separate lives apart from each other? Am i right? So, in other words, a separate system with separate rules and laws for the Maoris /Pakeha in which everybody coexists? And keeping the Maori cultures and traditions alive in separate areas? But this sounds a bit like apartheid TBH...

Yes - that's not a bad summary - with the obvious flaws for today's world ... we don't want Apartheid (well, most of us don't) we are intermarried and living in the cities - the question we face is "What does contemporary Māori culture lok like?" - and only we can answer that, not the Pākehā


And this is what the exremists still want?

Yes, some of the extremeists do seem to want that. But there are extremists in all cultures and they don't always get what they want (I feel a Stones Song coming on here ...)



If this is true - I have to question whether most modern Maori (at least the ones that I have met) would want to still be subject to a local monarch or chief (I understand there was no Paramount chief to speak of? I may be wrong)? With no vote?

I doubt it - democracy is still the best system human beings have invented for governance of a country - it's not perfect but we can improve it.


My feeling is that if the modern Maori want to be free Maori with a vote, and living in a modern demorcratic system, then they should stop this pushing for a 'return to Maori ways', and join the rest of us in society as equals...

Agreed. It's what joining the rest as equals means that the argument is about.


Also, I undertand that in the past, in traditional Maori culture the women were expected to be subservient to the men, and did not have much say in most things? Again, I dont know a helluva lot abouut Maori culture... but I somehow doubt whether most modern Maori women would want to return to this little aspect of Maoriness?

Probably not true - we don't really know what it was like int he past as the anthropologists and ethnographers saw what they wanted to see - and they were very patriacal themselves - rememebr the fight for women tyo vote was in the late 19th century ...

There have been strong women Māori leaders inthe past - I beleive the patriachy was adopted from European cultures - it was not part of our culture - it was learnt from the Pākehā.


I agree that where land and stuff was taken away from communities, resulting in large scale destitution, this should be returned - but again it is problematic in that how do urban 1/16th Maori's lay claim to their share?

Let us sort out who are members of our iwi and hapu ... that's our decision and should not be used as part of the argument to delay settlement.


Eventually, at some stage, someone has to call time on how much reparations are going to go on. Because there will always be more hands outstretched, wanting more, and having some sort of angle.

Hmmm .. yes, agreed. At present the treaty settlement money is largely going to help our people (I accept a few instances of greed and fuck ups) ... again, let us sort that out. With the financial resources we can reduce the number of people with their hands out ourselves ... we are trying here, on limited resources.

I don't know how we "call time" as you say - one part of me wants to say that as long as there are justified grievances then we can't call time .. another part of me recognises the reality fo the countrry we all live in .. dunno about this one ... it's a good point .. when will Māori be satisfied? Unfortunately right now my answer is "who knows?" ...

However, it is not up to Pākehā to "call time" alone ... there4 are two sides to this ...

[MSTRS]

However, it is not up to Pākehā to "call time" alone ... there4 are two sides to this ...

Actually, there are three...
White, Maori and the Truth

[JimO]

i have taken to listening ti Jt and Willie of an afternoon as im toiling away at work and had to larf today a maori chap rang complaining about asians coming here taking "our" jobs, perhaps he should set his sights a bit higher but the truth probably was that he was happily on the benefit sitting on his arse getting paid to do nothing

[imdying]

What we really need right now is a really threatening clearly identifiable common enemy threatening us to drive us back together again!

Life was shit hot following WW2 our world was full of love and respect.Out of interest, did people hate on the natives before the war? And after it?

Doesn't look to me as if it served that purpose mentioned very well, worse when you consider the number of Kiwis who died during that conflict. Maybe another solution would be more optimal.

[oldrider]

Out of interest, did people hate on the natives before the war? And after it?

Doesn't look to me as if it served that purpose mentioned very well, worse when you consider the number of Kiwis who died during that conflict. Maybe another solution would be more optimal.

I don't remember prior to WW2 I was only born at the start of it!

Before WW2 there were a lot of restrictions on just where Maori were allowed to go and that was all quickly dispensed with when all the men returned and equality and mutual respect prevailed.

My meaning was that a common crisis and National threat made us pull together as a nation.

Where I lived and grew up Maori Pakeha relationships were really good can't ever remember any of the sort of bullshit that goes on now.

As kids we were in and out of each others houses, overnight stays, meals etc, never really noticed the racial difference!

One thing we were all really told off for was speaking Maori and it was the Maori families that didn't want their kids talking Maori!

In hindsight it is easy to see that was a mistake but Maori parents wanted their kids to get a good education and English was the language of the future, or so they thought.

As a kid and until more recent years I could generally understand Maori but could not speak it!

I have no problem with Maori language being compulsory in primary school but after that it should be optional.

I hope that Maori and Pakeha (non Maori) relations drift back closer together like it was before television turned Maori youth into imitation American black people! (JMO)

I can't make up my mind whether threads like this one do the healing process much good but at least people are expressing their feelings and thoughts, not keeping them bottled up and festering!

Some of the stuff is both informative and interesting, so it's not all bad is it? :drinknsin

[R-Soul]

I doubt it - democracy is still the best system human beings have invented for governance of a country - it's not perfect but we can improve it.

Agreed. It's what joining the rest as equals means that the argument is about.



I don't know how we "call time" as you say - one part of me wants to say that as long as there are justified grievances then we can't call time .. another part of me recognises the reality fo the countrry we all live in .. dunno about this one ... it's a good point .. when will Māori be satisfied? Unfortunately right now my answer is "who knows?" ...

However, it is not up to Pākehā to "call time" alone ... there4 are two sides to this ...

Again I have only been here a limited time, but as I understand it, the basis of democracy is that "all men are created equal". That means ALL. No special benefits for some.

I can understand the frustration that Pakeha have as well, as it is the neverending outstretched hand that want more. Pakeha understand that what they have to do to get what they want is to work hard for it and fight for it. Why should they work hard for it, and pay taxes so that others can get preferential handouts and treatment instead of their own families. At some stage, it must stop. Democracy means equality, and equal opportunities for all. End of.

Either join the western society, properly, as free and EQUAL men, or change to a fully Maori culture. Actually this second aspect is not even an option anymore, realistically because Maroi culture is in effect western culture - lets face t, it aint that different anymore.

I dont see on what basis Maori can justify cherry picking the best aspects of both when there aren't even that many real differences between their own culture and NZ western culture anymore? NZ is a modern western society, and Maori have in effect realistically been part of it for a long time already. But they have not made the jump in their mind- perhaps because they have greedy chief who think they can squeeze more (perhaps unwarranted) financial gain from the government by convincing enough Maoris that the world owes them something. The leaders are not doing their people any favours by instilling this sense of entitlement in them. They sow division withn NZ society for their own gain, not because they are good leaders that look after their own.

The way I see it, whoever has greviances must now speak up or forever hold their peace. An accused man has the right to call reasonable time on anybody that may have a greviance against them. Stringing this crap on for 20 0years is unreasonable. Get it done and dusted, so that society can move on - as equals- without having a sword of justice/guilt hanging over their heads. And without sowing divisions in NZ society.

The way I see it, this questioning about "when will it ever end?" by the Pakeha is not a philosophical question -its notice of an impending deadline. It is signalling an end of their willingness to keep handing over what they worked for on the basis of guilt.

[imdying]

Maori and Pakeha both need to wake up.... paradiseTruth talk right there.


My meaning was that a common crisis and National threat made us pull together as a nation.Yeah I know, I just don't have much love for war and what it really does to a man.

[Banditbandit]

Actually, there are three...
White, Maori and the Truth

Yes. Good luck finding the truth.



One thing we were all really told off for was speaking Maori and it was the Maori families that didn't want their kids talking Maori!

In hindsight it is easy to see that was a mistake but Maori parents wanted their kids to get a good education and English was the language of the future, or so they thought.

Yes, that was a mistake. It's one we are trying to correct, with resistance from our Pākehā friends - as you know.


I hope that Maori and Pakeha (non Maori) relations drift back closer together like it was before television turned Maori youth into imitation American black people! (JMO)

What fascinates me is that on a day-to-day level and between actual people we get on really well. We work together, [play sport together, get drunk together, go hunting togwetyher, sleep with each other ..

It's only when we start talking about each other as a group that we slag each other off. Don't we trust our friends?

I don't know how many times I've heard memebrs of one group saying "Bloody Māori ..." "Bloody Pākehā .." then turn to their mates and say "we don't mean you ..." Well, if they don't mean their mates who do you mean ? Don't we trust our friends?


I can't make up my mind whether threads like this one do the healing process much good but at least people are expressing their feelings and thoughts, not keeping them bottled up and festering!

Some of the stuff is both informative and interesting, so it's not all bad is it? :drinknsin

I think it's useful. At least people are listening to each other and thinking .. that has to be good. Or maybe I'm dreaming ... do people really listen in an internet forum like KB? But at least I've noticed a change in what people are saying here ...

[oneofsix]

with resistance from our Pākehā friends - as you know.



I the Pakeha are assisting the re-learning of the maori language. the resistance (IMPO) is to it being forced on those that don't want to learn it.

[Banditbandit]

Again I have only been here a limited time, but as I understand it, the basis of democracy is that "all men are created equal". That means ALL. No special benefits for some.

In the ideal yes. In reality No. Especially when it is mixed with 20th/21st Century Capitalism.


I can understand the frustration that Pakeha have as well, as it is the neverending outstretched hand that want more. Pakeha understand that what they have to do to get what they want is to work hard for it and fight for it.

Hang about - are you suggesting that Māori don't understand that? Are you suggesting that the majority of our people are not out there working? IN shearing gangs, timber mills, logging crews, in Government departments, in management positions in many industries? Owning their own businesses?

Do you not know that Māori have the highest percentage of entrepreneurs of any ethnic group in the world? If the entrpreneurs are the wealth creators, then who is actually creating New Zealand's wealth.

Do you not know that the percentagoe of the Māori populationin tertiary education is higher than the Pākehā percetnage of population? We are doing things to improve our lot and working hard ... just people like you haven't noticed, or don't care .. just want to slag us off.

There's a high percentage of Māori in Government departments and ministries. The Nats are about to give Public Servants the chop - who do you think is going to lose their jobs? Which party is about to increase Māori unemployment?

To lump us all in as having neverending outstretched hands is simply a racist conception.



Why should they work hard for it, and pay taxes so that others can get preferential handouts and treatment instead of their own families. At some stage, it must stop. Democracy means equality, and equal opportunities for all. End of.

Hang about - what do you mean by "preferential treatment" ? You'll need to be a bit more specific before I can respond to that one ...


The rest I'll reply to shortly. Haven't got as huge amount of time right now.

[SMOKEU]

Don't we trust our friends?



Trust no one.






Do you not know that Māori have the highest percentage of entrepreneurs of any ethnic group in the world?


Since when does starting a business stealing cars and scrapping them for parts or burgling peoples houses to sell their stuff count as an entrepreneur?

[oldrider]

What fascinates me is that on a day-to-day level and between actual people we get on really well. We work together, [play sport together, get drunk together, go hunting togwetyher, sleep with each other ..

It's only when we start talking about each other as a group that we slag each other off. Don't we trust our friends?

I don't know how many times I've heard memebrs of one group saying "Bloody Māori ..." "Bloody Pākehā .." then turn to their mates and say "we don't mean you ..." Well, if they don't mean their mates who do you mean ? Don't we trust our friends? ...

Very true, it is as if the "they" are another anonymous group of people away out there somewhere!

The guy that sends me the most Maori jokes is Maori, we even talk about "them" (Maori or Pakeha) as if "we" (the group discussing the subject) are not part of it!

And we wonder why "they" (which is actually us) don't do something about it!

We are a weird mob all right! :weird:

[R-Soul]

In the ideal yes. In reality No. Especially when it is mixed with 20th/21st Century Capitalism.




No. Straightout - ALL men are equal. Not some that have a birthright to be treated differnetly. an easy concept. You may complain that perhaps the wealthy have an advantage- thats because their parenst sacrificed more and worked harder. And took risks. You mentioned about Maoris being entrepreneurs - so then you will appreciate the risk/reward payoff inherent in the capitalist way.

But at a base LEGAL level - in a democracy, all are equal. Not:
- some get seats on city councils reserved for them, or
- some get first choice at uni spots based on race, or
- some get pubic funds singled out for them for supporting their business, based on their race, or
- some get laptops when attending uni, while others dont, or
- some get preferantial home loan rates and support.






Hang about - are you suggesting that Māori don't understand that? Are you suggesting that the majority of our people are not out there working? IN shearing gangs, timber mills, logging crews, in Government departments, in management positions in many industries? Owning their own businesses?

Do you not know that Māori have the highest percentage of entrepreneurs of any ethnic group in the world? If the entrpreneurs are the wealth creators, then who is actually creating New Zealand's wealth.

Do you not know that the percentagoe of the Māori populationin tertiary education is higher than the Pākehā percetnage of population? We are doing things to improve our lot and working hard ... just people like you haven't noticed, or don't care .. just want to slag us off.

There's a high percentage of Māori in Government departments and ministries. The Nats are about to give Public Servants the chop - who do you think is going to lose their jobs? Which party is about to increase Māori unemployment?

To lump us all in as having neverending outstretched hands is simply a racist conception.

You have described a lot of successful Maori. So they must had been gven a good chance to be successful, right? As much chance as anybody else. So whay are there so many that want more, in addition to what is provided for anybody else?


I understand that most Maori are in settled jobs, and work hard like any other normal person. I am commenting on what I see on TV - Maori people going on at government all the time demanding rights and exceptions and money and land and, and and, and... based on greviances dating back hundreds of years. And when one group is paid out, it seems that another group seems to take its place, almost like here was never any real heirarchy, and groups of isolated chance takers take turns to make loud noises.

As with most societies, the majority tend to be seen in teh light of the minority of extremists who tend to make the most noise. Now you expect the representative group to make moderate noises to somewhat balance the noise from the extremists. But, and this may just be me not seeing this, I dont hear any moderate noises coming from any Maori leadership group at all. In fact just the opposite - with Hone acting like a racist c%$t with a massive entitlement chip on his shoulder most of the time. in fact I am not sure if there is a group of people represnting moderate Maori views? This leads me to believe that Maoris in general have extreme views, and a sense of "entitlement" - being entitled to treatment above and beyond what is given to everbody else.

Perhaps the Maori leaders have made a choice to let the young hotheads have their run and mouth off, to see what the government does in response, and to see if they can leverage any more "assistance" from it. But then they cannot bitch when the public starts seeing Maoris as being generally extreme in their views, and wanting more preferantial treatment all the time. There will always be extreme backlashes to extreme views- that is the nature of man. Perhaps if you chaps censored your own mouthpieces a bit, there would be more moderate views on Maoris in general.

What other representative body is there? Do most Maoris support the Maori party - or are they there to represent the extreme Maoris only? Do most Maoris just vote National/Labour? Why is there a Maori party at all - a political party based on race doesn't make sense, since the Maori population is as diverse economically as the extreme ends of Labour/national, from the poorest, to the richest. How can one party pretend to represent the rights of a groups so economically diverse with different wants and needs?

Perhaps if more moderate Maoris mouthed their opinion of the Maori party's rantings, then there would be more moderate views towards Maoris in general. Or perhaps Maoris should stop seeing themselves as Maoris and start seeing temselves as New Zealanders?




Hang about - what do you mean by "preferential treatment" ? You'll need to be a bit more specific before I can respond to that one ...



See above - in my short time here, I have already seen that there is soooo much more assistance for pretty much anything if you are Maori. Hell, even home loans.
Perhaps I should claim to be Maori - how would anyone prove otherwise? In the old South Africa they had ridiculous tests for ethnicity to support racist laws - you cannot enforce these rules if you cannot prove the difference- and this resulted in Portuguese and Italians becing regarded as black, and all sorts of screw ups. But the fact is that there is no hard and fast scientifc test for ethnicity.

I have no issue with holding your culture and language dear, and keeping it alive. Just like I try and keep Afrikaans alive in my houshold by teaching my kids, and eating traditional Afrikaans foods. But demanding an uneven share of the taxpayers money for preferential treatment on a basis of "we will decide when it ends" is just not right in this modern society.

[Banditbandit]

OK - next ...


Either join the western society, properly, as free and EQUAL men, or change to a fully Maori culture. Actually this second aspect is not even an option anymore, realistically because Maroi culture is in effect western culture - lets face t, it aint that different anymore.

I dont see on what basis Maori can justify cherry picking the best aspects of both when there aren't even that many real differences between their own culture and NZ western culture anymore?

All cultures "cherry pick" ... British culture has done just that from the culture of the Picts and Jutes, Celts, Romans, Saxons, Angles, .. etc etc ...

I have no idea what you mean by "a full Māori culture". Isn't that what we live? Are you saying that we should dump anything that was brought here by the immigrants since 1792?

And how much do you know of contemporary Māori Culture? Have you lived in it to make a judgement which says there is little difference?


NZ is a modern western society, and Maori have in effect realistically been part of it for a long time already. But they have not made the jump in their mind- perhaps because they have greedy chief who think they can squeeze more (perhaps unwarranted) financial gain from the government by convincing enough Maoris that the world owes them something. The leaders are not doing their people any favours by instilling this sense of entitlement in them. They sow division withn NZ society for their own gain, not because they are good leaders that look after their own.

You are making some huge judgements about what our leaders are saying and telling our people. Have you listened to them? The people you see on TV are not our leaders ...



The way I see it, whoever has greviances must now speak up or forever hold their peace. An accused man has the right to call reasonable time on anybody that may have a greviance against them. Stringing this crap on for 20 0years is unreasonable. Get it done and dusted, so that society can move on - as equals- without having a sword of justice/guilt hanging over their heads. And without sowing divisions in NZ society.

Yes. There will be no new claims of historic grievance to the Waitangi Tribunal. The claims were cut off two years ago ... whatever is on the table now is it. These claims will be worked through in due course. You're commenting when you obviously know very little about wehat is happening.


The way I see it, this questioning about "when will it ever end?" by the Pakeha is not a philosophical question -its notice of an impending deadline. It is signalling an end of their willingness to keep handing over what they worked for on the basis of guilt.

And, yes. There will be no new historical grievance claims ... only working through what is now on the table. How long that will take depends on both parties (actually National are quicker about it than Labour ... bad pun I know .. but the claims have been put up it's up to the Governmetn to work through their part in it as well as ours) )

[oneofsix]

How long that will take depends on both parties (actually National are quicker about it than Labour ... bad pun I know .. but the claims have been put up it's up to the Governmetn to work through their part in it as well as ours) )

interesting comment. When Nat first suggested the deadline for claims settlement Labour said it couldn't be done fairly, then came up with their own longer deadline. Your comment implies National is doing it by not mucking around rather than short cutting the process. Is this truely the case?

[Banditbandit]

No. Straightout - ALL men are equal. Not some that have a birthright to be treated differnetly. an easy concept. You may complain that perhaps the wealthy have an advantage- thats because their parenst sacrificed more and worked harder. And took risks. You mentioned about Maoris being entrepreneurs - so then you will appreciate the risk/reward payoff inherent in the capitalist way.

No disagreement there.


But at a base LEGAL level - in a democracy, all are equal. Not:
- some get seats on city councils reserved for them, or
- some get first choice at uni spots based on race, or
- some get pubic funds singled out for them for supporting their business, based on their race, or
- some get laptops when attending uni, while others dont, or
- some get preferantial home loan rates and support.

Now we disagree. The basis of our legal system is in our European-derived culture. The concepts you speak of here are not the same in Māori culture.

The legal system is essentially the formalised exercise of power and the rules that go with it. The democratic system we live under was never part of tikanga, and it's imposition is an act of colonization. We have very different ways of selecting leaders (and don't look at the runanga structures, which has elections - that system was imposed on us by the colonizing government. (No votes - no funding).

I agree that the gauranteed Māori seats in Parliament are undemocratic in it's purist sense - but that's not a problem for us. Democracy is the problem for us, not the gauranteed seats ... it's the reverse for Pākehā. And don't think for one moment I am arguing for a theocracy or a fuedal system, as some of you might think. Māori power structures are, if run properly, inherently more fair as they do not disenfranchise the minority. And that's the big thing - We look after the minorty as well as the majority - so there is not either/or - just a consensus.

I do not know of any Māori who gets free laptops at uni other than from family trusts. (And I work in Tertiary Education) .. happened once, not any more. And Māori working in tertiary education objected just as strongly to the organisation that did it as Pākehā did.

Or get special home loans and support. It's actually harder for us to get home loans to build on ancestral land, as we can't put up joint-ownership land as collateral. They might get loans from family trusts, but how does that differ from Pākehā family trusts?

Or get first choice of Uni places - can you show specific examples?


You have described a lot of successful Maori. So they must had been gven a good chance to be successful, right? As much chance as anybody else. So whay are there so many that want more, in addition to what is provided for anybody else?

Hmm ... dependency syndrome was learnt from the Pākehā, and Pākehā have it too. I know severasl Pākehā women who have had many chldren - to increase their DPB payments. I don't know any Māori women who have done that. Most of the ones I know with heaps of children simply did not use contraception - a failure or a lack of knowledge? But of both. Some of us are working to break all of that in our people.

And, if the land had not been taken from us, we might all be in a better position today than we are. The theft of the land was recognised as worng at the time, but still continued, right up to 1974. We need resources to work to better our people. Those resources were taken by the colonizers.



I understand that most Maori are in settled jobs, and work hard like any other normal person. I am commenting on what I see on TV - Maori people going on at government all the time demanding rights and exceptions and money and land and, and and, and... based on greviances dating back hundreds of years. And when one group is paid out, it seems that another group seems to take its place, almost like here was never any real heirarchy, and groups of isolated chance takers take turns to make loud noises.

So hang on - you're saying that you recognise that TV News has given you a distorted view -(I agree it has) but you are still willing to comment based on that distorted view?

Secondly, as late as 1967 the Government changed legisltation to force Māori owners to sell land - to the Government - this was finally stopped in 1974. This is not all grievances hundreds of years old ... there are grievances which date from times within the lifetime of people reading this now.


As with most societies, the majority tend to be seen in teh light of the minority of extremists who tend to make the most noise. Now you expect the representative group to make moderate noises to somewhat balance the noise from the extremists. But, and this may just be me not seeing this, I dont hear any moderate noises coming from any Maori leadership group at all. In fact just the opposite - with Hone acting like a racist c%$t with a massive entitlement chip on his shoulder most of the time. in fact I am not sure if there is a group of people represnting moderate Maori views? This leads me to believe that Maoris in general have extreme views, and a sense of "entitlement" - being entitled to treatment above and beyond what is given to everbody else.

While the moderate (and even conservative) Maori voices are there, the media has no interest in reporting them. There's no controversy there - it's not attractive to the audience ... again, the media is distorting your view.

Let me see .. there are Maori in Parliament in the National party (are they going to be extremists?) The Labour Party (are they extremists?) ACT, Greens, NZ First (Is Winston an extremist? He's Māori) ... Sir Graham Latimer and Sir Wira Gardner were both very senior officials in the National Party ... former GG Sir Paul Reeves (Anglican Bishop - an extremist?) ... and Māori vote across all parties - reference below ...


Perhaps the Maori leaders have made a choice to let the young hotheads have their run and mouth off, to see what the government does in response, and to see if they can leverage any more "assistance" from it. But then they cannot bitch when the public starts seeing Maoris as being generally extreme in their views, and wanting more preferantial treatment all the time. There will always be extreme backlashes to extreme views- that is the nature of man. Perhaps if you chaps censored your own mouthpieces a bit, there would be more moderate views on Maoris in general.

What other representative body is there? Do most Maoris support the Maori party - or are they there to represent the extreme Maoris only? Do most Maoris just vote National/Labour? Why is there a Maori party at all - a political party based on race doesn't make sense, since the Maori population is as diverse economically as the extreme ends of Labour/national, from the poorest, to the richest. How can one party pretend to represent the rights of a groups so economically diverse with different wants and needs?

Perhaps if more moderate Maoris mouthed their opinion of the Maori party's rantings, then there would be more moderate views towards Maoris in general.

They do - and the media don't show them to you.



Or perhaps Maoris should stop seeing themselves as Maoris and start seeing temselves as New Zealanders?

I sincerely hope so. That will only happen when Pākehā stop seeing us as Māori and therefore lazy bludgers with their hands out, and Māori stop seeing Pākehā as the arsehole colonzising oppressors ... what has to change to make that happen?


See above - in my short time here, I have already seen that there is soooo much more assistance for pretty much anything if you are Maori. Hell, even home loans.
Perhaps I should claim to be Maori - how would anyone prove otherwise? In the old South Africa they had ridiculous tests for ethnicity to support racist laws - you cannot enforce these rules if you cannot prove the difference- and this resulted in Portuguese and Italians becing regarded as black, and all sorts of screw ups. But the fact is that there is no hard and fast scientifc test for ethnicity.

I have no issue with holding your culture and language dear, and keeping it alive. Just like I try and keep Afrikaans alive in my houshold by teaching my kids, and eating traditional Afrikaans foods. But demanding an uneven share of the taxpayers money for preferential treatment on a basis of "we will decide when it ends" is just not right in this modern society.

Good. Accord us the same privilege. The difference is that Afrikaans is a European-derived culture, like New Zealand's Pākehā culture. Māori culture is essentially Polynesian.

[Banditbandit]

No. Straightout - ALL men are equal. Not some that have a birthright to be treated differnetly. an easy concept. You may complain that perhaps the wealthy have an advantage- thats because their parenst sacrificed more and worked harder.

let me expand on that one a little bit.

We are not looking at equality, but at Equity - a slightly different thing.

If we look at the life chances of children, sure, children in rich families have more and better life chances than children in poor families. Children with poor life chances tend to end up in jail, as addicts, poor educational outcomes, low-paid jobs, unemployment, etc etc ..

Now, Māori children generally have fewer and poorer life chances than Pākehā children. Many of them end up exactly as I described above - in jail, unemployed etc etc ...

We are saying that because our resources were forcably taken and we were not able to join the modern world as equals ( we tried but it all got taken from us) then right now we need help to improve the life chances of our children. So, give us some money to settle past grievances and we will use that reousrce tyo A) build it, as Ngai Tahu and Ngati Awa have - very quickly doubled the money the crown gave them. That will give us the basis to imrpove the life chances of our children.

This will pay off in the future, in lower prison costs (fewer Māori criminals) lower health costs (Better Maori health) lower benefit costs (More Māori in employment ) etc etc ..

[admenk]

Or get first choice of Uni places - can you show specific examples?



Now don't go asking for evidence and facts. If we all based our "opinions" on truth, where would the world be? :innocent:

[Banditbandit]

Now don't go asking for evidence and facts. If we all based our "opinions" on truth, where would the world be? :innocent:

:rofl: Yes. But that's the point - the evidence is not there to support these contentions ... so people need to change their conceptions of "us" and "them"

Yeah .. I know, I'm an idealist at heart ..

[SMOKEU]

Banditbandit - the amount of time you spend trying to defend the Maori races honour always surprises me. Don't you have like a job or something better to do?

[Banditbandit]

Banditbandit - the amount of time you spend trying to defend the Maori races honour always surprises me. Don't you have like a job or something better to do?

Yeah, I do have a job. I work in a Maori environment. It's a stretch, but I could argue that doing this is part of my job description - 'cause I don't see it as defending Māori honour, but educatiing Pākehā ...

[SMOKEU]

Yeah, I do have a job. I work in a Maori environment. It's a stretch, but I could argue that doing this is part of my job description.

So in other words you're on the unemployment benefit? Or sickness benefit? Or some kind of government benefit.

[Banditbandit]

So in other words you're on the unemployment benefit? Or sickness benefit? Or some kind of government benefit.

No. I work in Education. The students don't come back for a few more weeks ...

[MSTRS]

We are saying that because our resources were forcably taken and we were not able to join the modern world as equals ( we tried but it all got taken from us) then right now we need help to improve the life chances of our children. So, give us some money to settle past grievances and we will use that reousrce tyo A) build it, as Ngai Tahu and Ngati Awa have - very quickly doubled the money the crown gave them. That will give us the basis to imrpove the life chances of our children.

This will pay off in the future, in lower prison costs (fewer Māori criminals) lower health costs (Better Maori health) lower benefit costs (More Māori in employment ) etc etc ..

A wonderful (pipe?)dream.
Just how does giving money to a tribe help the unemployed, criminal-type urban Maori and their children?
And haven't the tribal lines become so blurred as to barely exist outside their 'traditional homelands'?

[avgas]

Are you saying that we should dump anything that was brought here by the immigrants since 1792?
Yep. Seems fair - New world with new way. I would even be keen to get some kind of mix in there creating a new hybrid style to NZ. Like when you great ANYONE there is a Hongi. A new style of martial art that is some kind of combo form of Wing Chun with Taiha (sorry if that spelt wrong).
I even reckon we ditch the pav for something new.
Lets put the New back in Zealand, and pull our ideas from the clouds.

Though I would like to know what you still use from that time that has not changed in some massive amount.

I am sure there is something from 1792 that we still use the same that has never been upgraded or replaced.....but can't put my finger on it.

[MSTRS]

I am sure there is something from 1792 that we still use the same that has never been upgraded or replaced.....but can't put my finger on it.

There, there. Not everyone is blessed...:innocent:

Edit: You must spread, etc. Somehow I don't think it'll be a problem spreading it for Avgas...

[Banditbandit]

A wonderful (pipe?)dream.
Just how does giving money to a tribe help the unemployed, criminal-type urban Maori and their children?

Almost every group that has a claim settled (I don't kniow them all, so I can't say all) have put money into education scholarships for their people ... no other conditions excerpt that you must belong to that family (iwi, hapu, whanau) group ... I have had students who have come from jail, and gained degrees through these scholarships and are now in good jobs - and their children will get better qualifications because of it ..

Almost all groups have set up their own health initiatives. Have a look at Whanau Ora on Maori TV on Thursday evenings - an example of a Whanganui initiative (not funded from a treaty claim) ... Ngati Awa Social Services ...

These are not limited to non-city people .. but city people as well.

And have a look at what Waiperara are doing in Auckland .. not even an iwi group, but an urban Maori group ..



And haven't the tribal lines become so blurred as to barely exist outside their 'traditional homelands'?

Maybe. We almost all come from several different groups now, but we all generally identify and are active memebrs of one group ... The urban Māori who have lost touch are an issue for us. Waiperaira are clearing doing something about that ... but it is an issue we are trying to address - not always with much success - the individualism of Pākehā cultrre they have learnt makes it hard for us to reach them .. and many are rebelious - against us as well as Pākehā .. such as the Mongrel Mob ... they hate EVERYONE ...

[R-Soul]

Firstly- re your earlier post - I did not realise that there was a cutoff date - all I ever saw were more claims - my apologies (I did tell you I have not much knowledge of past history).




Now we disagree. The basis of our legal system is in our European-derived culture. The concepts you speak of here are not the same in Māori culture.

The legal system is essentially the formalised exercise of power and the rules that go with it. The democratic system we live under was never part of tikanga, and it's imposition is an act of colonization. We have very different ways of selecting leaders (and don't look at the runanga structures, which has elections - that system was imposed on us by the colonizing government. (No votes - no funding).

I agree that the gauranteed Māori seats in Parliament are undemocratic in it's purist sense - but that's not a problem for us. Democracy is the problem for us, not the gauranteed seats ... it's the reverse for Pākehā. And don't think for one moment I am arguing for a theocracy or a fuedal system, as some of you might think. Māori power structures are, if run properly, inherently more fair as they do not disenfranchise the minority. And that's the big thing - We look after the minorty as well as the majority - so there is not either/or - just a consensus.

You say what you are not arguing for, but dont explain what you are arguing for. there doesn't seem to be a proposal to something constructive here. What is it exactly that Maori want that would make it not "enforced by the coloniser"? Was democracy actually enforced by teh colonisers? Or did maoris choose to use it because it was just the fairer system? What is the Maori system? On what basis is a chief made a chief? Is this system applicable to a large modern society?

We hear about the different wonderful Maori power structures, but never actually see any details. How does it work?

Also, how do you propose that these different idealogies be implemented simutaneously? Do you propose that a compromise be found and run as a single system? Or that two be run separately, with one set of peoples subject to one set of rules, and another to another? Because this stuff should be sorted out, and the whinging stop, so that we can move on as a single nation.

And honestly if there are no ways of doing this realistically, and keeping in mind that times have moved on, then why carry on whinging about something that could ever be? Be part of the solution, not the problem.

Keep in mind that Maoris (while they may have been unfairly treated in some cases) have also been part of one of the fairest systems on the planet (relatively speaking) over the last 200 years, then maybe it is time to bite the bullet, be thankful it wasn't communism or socialism or slavery or autocracy or Apartheid or many of the other MUCH WORSE western systems that was imported, and move on.


I do not know of any Māori who gets free laptops at uni other than from family trusts. (And I work in Tertiary Education) .. happened once, not any more. And Māori working in tertiary education objected just as strongly to the organisation that did it as Pākehā did.

Or get special home loans and support. It's actually harder for us to get home loans to build on ancestral land, as we can't put up joint-ownership land as collateral. They might get loans from family trusts, but how does that differ from Pākehā family trusts?

Or get first choice of Uni places - can you show specific examples?


http://www.auckland.ac.nz/webdav/site/central/shared/TECEF%20Practical%20Guidelines.pdf

http://www.voxy.co.nz/business/no-deposit-home-loans-maori-only/1071/38690

http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/indexmh/disability-maorisupport


http://healthworkforce.govt.nz/our-work/investment-relationships-and-purchasing/grants/integrated-maori-support-funding

http://www.otago.ac.nz/services/maori.html

http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/services/mpf/

http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/in-focus/wardens/funding/

http://teu.ac.nz/2010/11/changes-to-equity-funding-will-hurt-maori-and-pasifika/

http://www.justice.govt.nz/publications/global-publications/d/directory-of-official-information-december-2009/alphabetical-list-of-entries-1/t/te-reo-whakapuaki-irirangi-maori-broadcasting-funding-agency

http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/pr210204.doc

Do a google search on "Maori funding assistance"

Actually I dont have an issue with the government funding indigenous national culture and language at all as it is part of the national identity. But I dont see why one NZ citizen or resident should be financially assisted in everyday ahead of another based on race. I am SO over that shit.



Hmm ... dependency syndrome was learnt from the Pākehā, and Pākehā have it too. I know severasl Pākehā women who have had many chldren - to increase their DPB payments. I don't know any Māori women who have done that. Most of the ones I know with heaps of children simply did not use contraception - a failure or a lack of knowledge? But of both. Some of us are working to break all of that in our people.

Potato, potatoe


And, if the land had not been taken from us, we might all be in a better position today than we are. The theft of the land was recognised as worng at the time, but still continued, right up to 1974. We need resources to work to better our people. Those resources were taken by the colonizers.





So hang on - you're saying that you recognise that TV News has given you a distorted view -(I agree it has) but you are still willing to comment based on that distorted view?

My perception is my reality is it not? And in politics, perception becomes reality.
At least I knwo wenough to know that the Maori Party fools cannot be teh voice of reason. But I just dont see any press releases by any other respected social or cultural leadership that counter their hate speech.


Secondly, as late as 1967 the Government changed legisltation to force Māori owners to sell land - to the Government - this was finally stopped in 1974. This is not all grievances hundreds of years old ... there are grievances which date from times within the lifetime of people reading this now.

I actually did not realise that it was that recently. Was the land taken in exchange for fair value in money? If that is the case, extradition of land is a common thing in most countries where the greater public good requires it (eg for development of highways, zoning to residential land, etc). Better infrastructure means more jobs and better opportunities for all. As long as the payment was fair.





While the moderate (and even conservative) Maori voices are there, the media has no interest in reporting them. There's no controversy there - it's not attractive to the audience ... again, the media is distorting your view.

Let me see .. there are Maori in Parliament in the National party (are they going to be extremists?) The Labour Party (are they extremists?) ACT, Greens, NZ First (Is Winston an extremist? He's Māori) ... Sir Graham Latimer and Sir Wira Gardner were both very senior officials in the National Party ... former GG Sir Paul Reeves (Anglican Bishop - an extremist?) ... and Māori vote across all parties - reference below ...

Frankly the mere existance of the Maori political party should be an affront to the intelligence of moderate Maori. A Party that claims to speak for all regardless of their particular situation is just nonsense, and purely racist in nature. One that can only appeal to the most uneducated, who can be enticed with promises of rewards etc - seen it all before in Africa.

Why is there not a united Maori leadership (not a political party with conflicts of interest) that has the support of all Maoris can really speak for all Maori on things Maori in nature (i.e the Maori culture)?



I sincerely hope so. That will only happen when Pākehā stop seeing us as Māori and therefore lazy bludgers with their hands out, and Māori stop seeing Pākehā as the arsehole colonzising oppressors ... what has to change to make that happen?

Well the unevenness of the playing field for one. If you are a New Zealander, act like a New Zealander, and not a precious "chosen one". Compete to win on an even basis. Hopefuly when all the claims are laid to rest, and past injustices redressed, we can all carry on as equals, with equal opportunities for all, and mutual respect for each others cultures.



The difference is that Afrikaans is a European-derived culture, like New Zealand's Pākehā culture. Māori culture is essentially Polynesian.

Actually Afrikaans is derived from quite a few cultures, including western and African (and even some Asian) - but yes, mosly Dutch. But I dont see how that is relevant?

[SMOKEU]

Banditbandit - you need to admit that the NZ goverment is a very racist government. It's biased towards giving Maori people more rights and opportunities than white people. It's about time this racism stops. The whites in some ways are worse than the Maoris, they just bend over backwards and give the Maori people whatever they want. Someone has to stand up and fight for the rights of white people, otherwise we'll soon have an Apartheid like regime over here.

[Teflon]

I sincerely hope so. That will only happen when Pākehā stop seeing us as Māori and therefore lazy bludgers with their hands out, and Māori stop seeing Pākehā as the arsehole colonzising oppressors ... what has to change to make that happen?

Google "Maori are".. the very first suggestion Google shows is "lazy"

[Shadowjack]

Banditbandit - you need to admit that the NZ goverment is a very racist government. It's biased towards giving Maori people more rights and opportunities than white people. It's about time this racism stops. The whites in some ways are worse than the Maoris, they just bend over backwards and give the Maori people whatever they want. Someone has to stand up and fight for the rights of white people, otherwise we'll soon have an Apartheid like regime over here.

FFS
You've embarrassed yourself (even further) with this one.
The only thing worse than an informed troll is an un-informed troll.

[SMOKEU]

You can dress a monkey in a suit, but in the end, it's still a monkey.

[JimO]

Banditbandit - you need to admit that the NZ goverment is a very racist government. It's biased towards giving Maori people more rights and opportunities than white people. It's about time this racism stops. The whites in some ways are worse than the Maoris, they just bend over backwards and give the Maori people whatever they want. Someone has to stand up and fight for the rights of white people, otherwise we'll soon have an Apartheid like regime over here.

auckland supercity anybody?? millions of dollars for the maori board. what for??

[98tls]

Yeah, I do have a job. I work in a Maori environment. It's a stretch, but I could argue that doing this is part of my job description - 'cause I don't see it as defending Māori honour, but educatiing Pākehā ...

:facepalm:Wtf,i dont need educating but thanks for the offer.Ive read your posts with an open mind fella but for my money your way wide of the mark.You lost nothing to the White man nor did anyone you know or ever will do so why not simply get on with being a New Zealander,speak your own language twirl your Pois or whatever there called do whatever it is you guys need to do to stay in touch with whatever from the past but dont burden the rest of us (me anyway) with it,"educating Pakeha",load of:violin:

[JimO]

:facepalm:Wtf,i dont need educating but thanks for the offer.Ive read your posts with an open mind fella but for my money your way wide of the mark.You lost nothing to the White man nor did anyone you know or ever will do so why not simply get on with being a New Zealander,speak your own language twirl your Pois or whatever there called do whatever it is you guys need to do to stay in touch with whatever from the past but dont burden the rest of us (me anyway) with it,"educating Pakeha",load of:violin:

what he said.............either get on or get off this isnt 1850 its 2011 how long do you have to look back, its all whiteys fault, how about maori just get on with it because what they are doing now isnt working for them

[SMOKEU]

Cheeky darkies.

[SMOKEU]

what he said.............either get on or get off this isnt 1850 its 2011 how long do you have to look back, its all whiteys fault, how about maori just get on with it because what they are doing now isnt working for them

The British managed to move on from what the Germans did to them in WW2, the Japanese managed to move on from being nuked by the USA, why the phuck can't the Maoris get over what happened a few hundred years ago?

It's because the cunts want to rip every phucking white cunt off for as much as they can. Sure, not all Maoris rip people off but have a look on TV and you'll see what I mean.

[98tls]

what he said.............either get on or get off this isnt 1850 its 2011 how long do you have to look back, its all whiteys fault, how about maori just get on with it because what they are doing now isnt working for them

Thing thats gets me mate is that most do just get on with it,i work with Maori blokes who clock in everyday same as i,they dont wank on about all that Treaty blah blah bullshit they simply get up go to work and pour there hard earned into there familys and simply getting on with living.No doubt some are proud of there heritage etc as they have every right to be but dont seem to take offence to the fact that i couldnt give a shite about it.

[Hans]

Yeah, I do have a job. I work in a Maori environment. It's a stretch, but I could argue that doing this is part of my job description - 'cause I don't see it as defending Māori honour, but educatiing Pākehā ...


I am sorry but you need to be told this:

YOU ARE DELUSIONAL.
The white man does not need the propaganda you vainly attempt to disguise as education. You are trying to impose the values of a minor Early Stone Age culture upon the rest of us.
To show you how backwards your culture was when the white man made contact: We were 327 years away from landing on the Moon and you hadn't invented ceramics yet - 30 000 years ago for us. Yes, 30 millenia. I ask again what can you teach us?

I repeat. I am sick to death of your people airing mostly imagined grievances over and over again. As someone who has no relatives in this country and has nothing to do with your grievances - spare me. Spare me having to listen to the propaganda over and over and over. And spare me having to pay the compensation from my taxes.

[jaffamont]

I am sorry but you need to be told this:

YOU ARE DELUSIONAL.
The white man does not need the propaganda you vainly attempt to disguise as education. You are trying to impose the values of a minor Early Stone Age culture upon the rest of us.
To show you how backwards your culture was when the white man made contact: We were 327 years away from landing on the Moon and you hadn't invented ceramics yet - 30 000 years ago for us. Yes, 30 millenia. I ask again what can you teach us?

I repeat. I am sick to death of your people airing mostly imagined grievances over and over again. As someone who has no relatives in this country and has nothing to do with your grievances - spare me. Spare me having to listen to the propaganda over and over and over. And spare me having to pay the compensation from my taxes.

Spare us mate and fuck off back wherever home was for you. You and all the white this white that, TV said this so I better think the same unoriginal misinformed need to get out ride your bike and go and see the real NZ it's full of decent people of all creeds doing the right thing. You just don't see it on the six o'clock news because that sort of stuff does not generate sufficient advertising revenue.

I guess reading through all this shit it is clear that the media get to decide what we think. I ride a bike therefore I'm off to the garage and make sure my "P" lab is all running as it should.

[admenk]

The British managed to move on from what the Germans did to them in WW2

Who says we did, they bombed our chip shop !:violin:

[Hans]

Spare us mate and fuck off back wherever home was for you. You and all the white this white that, TV said this so I better think the same unoriginal misinformed need to get out ride your bike and go and see the real NZ it's full of decent people of all creeds doing the right thing. You just don't see it on the six o'clock news because that sort of stuff does not generate sufficient advertising revenue.

I guess reading through all this shit it is clear that the media get to decide what we think. I ride a bike therefore I'm off to the garage and make sure my "P" lab is all running as it should.

That's the weakest bit of writing I've seen for a while. Do I have to call myself Pakeha instead of White to appease your pc sensibilities? How do you know how much time I spend among ordinary Kiwis? How do you know how I form my opinions? Ever heard of punctuation? Muppet.

[jaffamont]

That's the weakest bit of writing I've seen for a while. Do I have to call myself Pakeha instead of White to appease your pc sensibilities? How do you know how much time I spend among ordinary Kiwis? How do you know how I form my opinions? Ever heard of punctuation? Muppet.

The forming of opinions thing was not directed at you. Apologies. Still wish you would leave though.

[Hans]

The forming of opinions thing was not directed at you. Apologies. Still wish you would leave though.

Why do you wish that I leave? Are dissenting opinions not wanted here?

[98tls]

Spare us mate and fuck off back wherever home was for you. .

No doubt wherever that is there would be the same whinging/wanting/needy/woe is me/we are oppressed/the world owes us bullshit thats hell bent on bringing this country to its knees,Jesus H do you think our lot were the first to use the past to cry foul?Worse still to ensure a handsome salary for 3 years politicians promise them justice and bingo another 3 years down the can.

[FJRider]

Why do you wish that I leave? Are dissenting opinions not wanted here?

dissenting opinions are the norm ... :shutup: :facepalm:

[Teflon]

It's because the cunts want to rip every phucking white cunt off for as much as they can. Sure, not all Maoris rip people off but have a look on TV and you'll see what I mean.

It's only going to get worse. Sadly the white race are being outbred and will become the smallest minority race in the world. White extinction is such a sickening thought... a world without blond hair blue eyed woman:bye:

[Clockwork]

let me expand on that one a little bit.

We are not looking at equality, but at Equity - a slightly different thing.

If we look at the life chances of children, sure, children in rich families have more and better life chances than children in poor families. Children with poor life chances tend to end up in jail, as addicts, poor educational outcomes, low-paid jobs, unemployment, etc etc ..

Now, Māori children generally have fewer and poorer life chances than Pākehā children. Many of them end up exactly as I described above - in jail, unemployed etc etc ...

We are saying that because our resources were forcably taken and we were not able to join the modern world as equals

This seems to be suggesting that somehow a lack of family wealth has unfairly deprived Maori.

But this is how I see it. My family, as far back as anyone has looked have been working class. My Dad was a fire man, my Mom a nurse. My Grandparents were factory workers. My Grandparents never had the resources to financially assist my parents nor did they leave anything by way of an inheritance. My parents bought their own home and I went to a state school (I'm not tertiary educated). I've never received any financial assistance from them, in fact these days I'm subsidizing my Mom's standard of living. I expect to inherit nothing from my Mon and very little from my Dad.

My point is that each successive generation has become wealthier without any financial assistance from the "whanau"(sp) and the only advantage that I can perceive that I've had is that my family, culture if you will, had expectations of me and encouraged me to achieve.

Is this not a fair observation? To my mind the only thing that prevents any healthy member of an "underclass" from improving their lot is the lack of will, encouragement or expectations. These chains are cultural.

[R-Soul]

It's only going to get worse. Sadly the white race are being outbred and will become the smallest minority race in the world. White extinction is such a sickening thought... a world without blond hair blue eyed woman:bye:

The good news is that the world is going to be Chinese or Indian!

[avgas]

The British managed to move on from what the Germans did to them in WW2, the Japanese managed to move on from being nuked by the USA, why the phuck can't the Maoris get over what happened a few hundred years ago?

It's because the cunts want to rip every phucking white cunt off for as much as they can. Sure, not all Maoris rip people off but have a look on TV and you'll see what I mean.
yOU KNOW FOR A RACIST.....YOUR ACTUALLY RIGHT THIS TIME.

I USED TO THINK THAT PEOPLE HERE WERE HARD DONE BY, THEN I MET MY WIFE AND WENT TO HER HOME TOWN - SHANGHAI, CHINA. MADE WAITANGI LOOK LIKE A WALK IN THE PARK.

I AM NOT SAYING WHAT HAPPENED IN NZ IS FINE BY ANY MEANS - BUT WHEN I LOOK AT WHAT HAS HAPPENED WITH VARIOUS OTHER RACES AROUND THE WORLD....AT LEAST WE SHOULD BE HUMBLED AS TO HOW MUCH WORSE IT COULD HAVE BEEN, AND WHAT WE HAVE TO MOVE FORWARD.

IF THE ATTITUDE OF THE CHINESE CAN CHANGE FROM LOOKING AT THE PAST TO THE FUTURE - I AM SURE THAT THE MAORI MANTRA FROM THE SAME NATURE CAN CHANGE TO THIS ALSO.

[avgas]

WOOT CAPS IS ON! :corn:

[BoristheBiter]

let me expand on that one a little bit.

We are not looking at equality, but at Equity - a slightly different thing.

If we look at the life chances of children, sure, children in rich families have more and better life chances than children in poor families. Children with poor life chances tend to end up in jail, as addicts, poor educational outcomes, low-paid jobs, unemployment, etc etc ..

Now, Māori children generally have fewer and poorer life chances than Pākehā children. Many of them end up exactly as I described above - in jail, unemployed etc etc ...

We are saying that because our resources were forcably taken and we were not able to join the modern world as equals ( we tried but it all got taken from us) then right now we need help to improve the life chances of our children. So, give us some money to settle past grievances and we will use that reousrce tyo A) build it, as Ngai Tahu and Ngati Awa have - very quickly doubled the money the crown gave them. That will give us the basis to imrpove the life chances of our children.

This will pay off in the future, in lower prison costs (fewer Māori criminals) lower health costs (Better Maori health) lower benefit costs (More Māori in employment ) etc etc ..

OK i will bite.

So what you what is just another hand out.

Try working for it and you might find that you will get more respect then expecting someone to give it you for nothing.

You talk about these are not your leaders, well guess what they are, they are the one's that were voted in on race based seats. if these aren't your leaders then why have they been voted in, or voted out?

Oh Boo hoo, my father was a drunk, we have no money, we live in the middle of nowhere, just more excuses of why it is easier to fail in life. I grew up with my parents giving up everything so i do better than them or at least have the chance to do so.

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves, get off your arse and do a hard days work. You never know you might get the things the rest us New Zealanders have.

[onearmedbandit]

OK i will bite.

So what you what is just another hand out.

Try working for it and you might find that you will get more respect then expecting someone to give it you for nothing.

You talk about these are not your leaders, well guess what they are, they are the one's that were voted in on race based seats. if these aren't your leaders then why have they been voted in, or voted out?

Oh Boo hoo, my father was a drunk, we have no money, we live in the middle of nowhere, just more excuses of why it is easier to fail in life. I grew up with my parents giving up everything so i do better than them or at least have the chance to do so.

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves, get off your arse and do a hard days work. You never know you might get the things the rest us New Zealanders have.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[onearmedbandit]

let me expand on that one a little bit.

We are not looking at equality, but at Equity - a slightly different thing.

If we look at the life chances of children, sure, children in rich families have more and better life chances than children in poor families. Children with poor life chances tend to end up in jail, as addicts, poor educational outcomes, low-paid jobs, unemployment, etc etc ..

Now, Māori children generally have fewer and poorer life chances than Pākehā children. Many of them end up exactly as I described above - in jail, unemployed etc etc ...

We are saying that because our resources were forcably taken and we were not able to join the modern world as equals ( we tried but it all got taken from us) then right now we need help to improve the life chances of our children. So, give us some money to settle past grievances and we will use that reousrce tyo A) build it, as Ngai Tahu and Ngati Awa have - very quickly doubled the money the crown gave them. That will give us the basis to imrpove the life chances of our children.

This will pay off in the future, in lower prison costs (fewer Māori criminals) lower health costs (Better Maori health) lower benefit costs (More Māori in employment ) etc etc ..

How do you explain the Maori's who have achieved then? And how should they feel after working as hard as everyone else, if not even harder, to make it in this world, to then have their race identified as one that needs extra help?

[Banditbandit]

Phew ... so much anger and hatred ... is it any wonder that some of our young peopel hate you right back?

I'll just say that I, personally, have worked for everything I have and never taken a cent of treaty settlement or other monies ... I have not received any benefit of any kind since the late 1970s ... for three months after leaving uni ... I own my own home and pay a mortgage ... I don't owe anyone any money (except the bank for the mortage).

So all the personal attacks are way off the mark ... you may say they are not personal attacks - but they are framed in the second person - and I read them as aimed at me. If they are not meant that way, then many of you need to learn to moderate your language ... 'cause I'm pretty pissed off with some of you right now (and some of you I will have met on the road and enjoyed your brief company - you have no idea who's on this end of the keyboard ... )

Anyways - I'm on the road for the next six days (Yahooo ...) so I might respond when I get back ... sometime next week ... the anger will disappear about 30 seconds after I start the bike ... coffee, cigarette and I'm gone ...

[MSTRS]

bike ... coffee, cigarette ...

Ah. The 3 great vices. A great leveller, eh?

[R-Soul]

If we look at the life chances of children, sure, children in rich families have more and better life chances than children in poor families. Children with poor life chances tend to end up in jail, as addicts, poor educational outcomes, low-paid jobs, unemployment, etc etc ..

Now, Māori children generally have fewer and poorer life chances than Pākehā children. Many of them end up exactly as I described above - in jail, unemployed etc etc ...


Seriously? You believe that? No wonder Maoris have entitlement attitude!

Poor kids end up in jail, unemployed etc because they have uncaring parents that dont wrok as hard as they can to motivate ther kids to perform, don't give them good guidance and are pretty lazy themselves - which is why they are poor in the first place. Maori kids are disadvantaged not because of lack of money - but because of lack of moral, ethical and intellectual guidance. The see their role models behaving badly, and learn to take up the role. No amount of handouts is going to solve that -in fact they will make it worse- Only good and decent moral, ethical and intellectual leadership will help that.

Funny how it keeps coming back that doesnt it - there is just a deafening silence from the (supposed) REAL Maori leaders? A serious leadership vacuum. Are there really universally respected Maori leaders? Or are Maori just fragmented, disjointed packs of rabble that take a chance for handouts whenever they can get them? I just call things as I see them from my limited stay here.

The way I see it, Maori kids (at least the minority that we are bitching about) have the opportunity to go to school (for free FFS), to study, to obtain bursaries, learn trades, whatever. Same as everybody else. Its not like Apartheid when they were legally prevented from going to schools/getting jobs. WTF else do they expect? To be given companies? NZ schooling is great in general - certainly better than most around the world.

They have equal opportunities to learn- and that is all anybody can ask for. They just have to compete for jobs on an equal basis after that. Like everybody else. They just choose not to take the opportunities before them. And then blame it all on historical imbalances. Relative to (most of) the rest of the world, they have had a pretty bloody easy time of it.

There are balck people that grew up in tin shacks on the outskirts of "white suburbs" in Apartheid South Africa, with no food in their bellies for days on end, no running water, and studying by candle light. Yet they still succeeded in their studies, some obtained bursaries or scolarships, and made a better life for themselves. Why? Because their parents understood what was required, how important education was, and cared enough to make them understand. And did what they could to support them.

Where there is a will, there is a way. But there seems to not be much will going around this side.

This Maori blame game is a cop out.

[admenk]

Oh well, we did quite well with over 15 pages of fairly friendly, well reasoned debate, arguments and discussions, before we got to the universal fall back position of "let's just post abuse" :facepalm: