Police say had the rider been wearing... [Archive] - Page 3

That looks like fun

9th February 2011, 20:55

The assertion ... that this statement by the cop is an admission of future policy, and that all (or any) "accidents" in the future ... could be avoided if the riders are/were wearing a high vis vest ... I FIND STUPID. Again ... MY opinion.

If you read back over the thread the first quote you will find that introduces the assertion you find stupid is this one
Perhaps instead of pissing your panties, you lot should realise that the comment suggests the probable introduction of wearing hi-viz as law.

I'd prefer we all learned to really open our fucking eyes and turn our fucking brains on when we ride rather than being forced to wear hi-viz.
I will leave you to research for yourself who introduced it to the thread :violin:

FJRider

9th February 2011, 21:06

So do we all agree then?

The statement, regardless of who made it, that:

"The rider may have lived if he had been wearing a hi-vis vest"

a. Deflects responsibility from the other party
b. Reflects unfairly on the motorcyclist
c. was unfounded and unnecessary.

a. The truck driver cannot deny he hit the biker. FACT.
It would seem he didn't SEE the biker. Truck drivers fault ... in my opinion ...

Had the biker been wearing the high vis vest ... the biker MAY have been seen (THAT is not a fact he WOULD have lived ... merely MAY have lived)

b. A rider riding within the law ... (headlight on I assume) was not seen. and probably riding with the assumption he had right-of-way. AND WAS SEEN.

If you ask the question ... could ... if the biker WAS wearing the vest ... lived (ie: the accident had not occured) even a maybe answer means the OP is reading too much into the "News" statement.

Riding within the law is not a guarantee of a long life ... "reflects unfairly" ... mmmmm
Riding with the assumption that the law will protect ... will reflect unfairly on the riders that do ... when shit happens. Because some of them may die.

c. It was the cop's opinion ... in the one instance he MAY have been correct ... and as THAT cop was on the scene gathering the FACTS ... and few of the posters in THIS thread (if any) were NOT ... I would be inclined to believe the cop.

IN MY OPINION ...

FJRider

9th February 2011, 21:16

If you read back over the thread the first quote you will find that introduces the assertion you find stupid is this one
Perhaps instead of pissing your panties, you lot should realise that the comment suggests the probable introduction of wearing hi-viz as law.

I'd prefer we all learned to really open our fucking eyes and turn our fucking brains on when we ride rather than being forced to wear hi-viz.
I will leave you to research for yourself who introduced it to the thread :violin:

Two OPINIONS ...

Your lives are in your hands ...

The steps you dont take to preserve those lives ...

May well kill you.

That looks like fun

9th February 2011, 21:21

Two OPINIONS ...

Your lives are in your hands ...

The steps you dont take to preserve those lives ...

May well kill you.

Nah sorry mate I dont follow you, you will need to clarify how this relates to your previous post and my reply :blink:

On second thoughts I am tired of this whole debacle this thread has become:facepalm:

ELVIS has left the building :love:

PrincessBandit

9th February 2011, 21:27

ELVIS has left the building :love:

With the other aliens?

Sorry, couldn't resist...

steve_t

9th February 2011, 21:29

Right. Is there anything left to say that hasn't already been said? This seems to be going in circles.

Smifffy

9th February 2011, 21:30

With the other aliens?

Sorry, couldn't resist...

Y'all should call into our Burger King some time, he actually sits at the table in the front corner and just watches the traffic go by.

MSTRS

10th February 2011, 07:52

So, we are all in agreement that a dickhead newshound reported a throwaway comment by a cop about Hi-viz maybe saving the life of a biker? And everything else in this thread is also opinion, conjecture or personal agenda....

Fatt Max

10th February 2011, 07:53

Swoop

10th February 2011, 07:59

the KB sickle, scythe & pitchfork crew should be after, thanks for clearing that up....
Hey! Ya forgot the flaming torches.:angry:
Seriously, how's a mob supposed to operate at night? Huh? This isn't a 9-5 mob, they need to work 24hrs a day since there's a lot of mobbin' to be done.:innocent:
Someone needs to draw up a list, so a mob doesn’t forget anything. That's embarrassing when you get a good mob going and then someone has to run home for something.:facepalm:
Sheesh.

Eyegasm

10th February 2011, 08:42

Is it time for Silly hats yet??? Thread is getting as old as these two....

231538

baptist

10th February 2011, 08:58

Is it time for Silly hats yet??? Thread is getting as old as these two....

231538

+1 for that231539 unless someone wants to draw up an official KB mob membership contract?

Spearfish

10th February 2011, 09:00

Is it time for Silly hats yet??? Thread is getting as old as these two....

231538

Would love to see her going through a.........If you know what I mean

(direct rip of another funny thread)

Elysium

10th February 2011, 20:19

Ok did anyone wave to a rider in Hi-Vis vest today?

davebullet

10th February 2011, 20:50

Ok did anyone wave to a rider in Hi-Vis vest today?

Yes. I looked in one of my mirrors and waved. I forgot my silly hat though and got sunburnt:
<img src="http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art4/0208081mugs7.jpg"/>

steve_t

10th February 2011, 21:12

Yes. I looked in one of my mirrors and waved. I forgot my silly hat though and got sunburnt:
<img src="http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art4/0208081mugs7.jpg"/>

Aren't you a little old to be sporting the backwards cap? You're excused if you were attending an outdoor arm wrestling competition....

Anyone old enough to get that? :innocent:

Jdogg

10th February 2011, 21:25

Aren't you a little old to be sporting the backwards cap? You're excused if you were attending an outdoor arm wrestling competition....

Anyone old enough to get that? :innocent:

Hell yesss:Punk::Punk::Punk:231722

Fatt Max

10th February 2011, 22:42

My vis vest stinks of stale cream and custard. It was the only thing I had to clean myself with after Maha stuck a maaaaasive custard pie in my face at the weekend.

Vis vests, wont stop a custard pie.....

Fatjim

11th February 2011, 07:24

Vehicles don't pull u-turns without giving some clues as to their intention.

You're kidding right? You know that women drive cars as well right?

The saddest thing is that as a motorcyclist you have a very high chance of proving yourself wrong or foolish. The trouble is, it might cost you your life.

And even Drew will be sad about that, even thought he's a cunt.

grbaker

11th February 2011, 07:38

http://www.bsa.govt.nz/

If you think TV3 News coverage of that incidet was so poor and judgemental then "Make a Complaint". I think d) covers the complaint criteria.

The Broadcasting Act 1989 requires every broadcaster to be responsible for maintaining in programmes and their presentation, standards which are consistent with:

a) The observance of good taste and decency

b) The maintenance of law and order

c) The privacy of the individual

d) The principle that when controversial issues of public importance are discussed, reasonable efforts are made, or reasonable opportunities are given, to present significant points of view, either in the same programme or in other programmes within the period of current interest

e) Any approved Code of Broadcasting Practice applied to programmes.

or Standard 4 and ./or Standard 6...

Grounds for a Formal Complaint

Formal complaints allege that the broadcaster has failed in its responsibility to maintain one or more of the broadcasting standards set out in Standards 1 to 11 below.

Standard 1: Good Taste and Decency

Standard 2: Law and Order

Standard 3: Privacy

Standard 4: Controversial Issues - Viewpoints

Standard 5: Accuracy

Standard 6: Fairness

Standard 7: Discrimination and Denigration

Standard 8: Responsible Programming

Standard 9: Children’s Interests

Standard 10: Violence

Standard 11: Liquor

Katman

11th February 2011, 07:50

You're kidding right? You know that women drive cars as well right?

The saddest thing is that as a motorcyclist you have a very high chance of proving yourself wrong or foolish. The trouble is, it might cost you your life.

And even Drew will be sad about that, even thought he's a cunt.

As has already been said a number of times in this thread, you have to be looking for the clues in order to see them.

I'm sure you've seen plenty of those videos where a voice says "Let's see that again" and the camera rewinds to the start. Suddenly things are seen that were missed on the initial viewing.

Those are the things we need to be training ourselves to notice without relying on the benefit of hindsight.

MSTRS

11th February 2011, 09:00

As has already been said a number of times in this thread, you have to be looking for the clues in order to see them.

I'm sure you've seen plenty of those videos where a voice says "Let's see that again" and the camera rewinds to the start. Suddenly things are seen that were missed on the initial viewing.

Those are the things we need to be training ourselves to notice without relying on the benefit of hindsight.

Correct. And I'm sure that we do. Look, that is. However, and I'm not making excuses here...
Sometimes we fail to see.
Sometimes we fail to process what we are seeing.
Sometimes we fail to process/react in time.
Shit, sometimes we probably fail to look in the first place.

To stay safe, we may be required to have superhuman powers of observation/reaction - but note that even superhumans are still human.

R-Soul

11th February 2011, 10:27

Fatt Max

11th February 2011, 17:38

"Custard pie"? Is that what you call it? :shutup:

Fair comment, a Honda rider chucking custard about sounds a bit....you know.....iffy....

Coldrider

11th February 2011, 17:39

Police described a chic a few days as a "half cast".

Police gave the local paper the names of convicted drink drivers to publish in the papers, name & shame.
They gave a name as a convicted drink driver a man who was the actual victim of a drink driver. Red face police and newspaper.
And the police have absolutely no idea how this mistake could have happened.

http://www.hawkesbaytoday.co.nz/local/news/sober-driver-wrongly-named-in-list-of-shame/3939706/

Warning, don't believe everything the police have to say or publish.

FROSTY

11th February 2011, 17:56

Just a thought guys n gals. maybee it'd be a good idea before tossing vitorol around and getting all pissed at each other we could wait for the CSI and coroners report.

Deano

11th February 2011, 18:00

Just a thought guys n gals. maybee it'd be a good idea before tossing vitorol around and getting all pissed at each other we could wait for the CSI and coroners report.

What, like the officer that was interviewed ? :innocent:

swbarnett

11th February 2011, 18:07

Just a thought guys n gals. maybee it'd be a good idea before tossing vitorol around and getting all pissed at each other we could wait for the CSI and coroners report.
This is exactly the point of the thread - the police and media are the one's commenting prematurely. This is an outrage irrespective of what actually happened.

FROSTY

11th February 2011, 18:13

What, like the officer that was interviewed ? :innocent:
Nahh mon having seen just how well the "news" crews can bend an interview to sensationalise I'm betting the comment was taken out of context.

"so officer what happened here then" ---well for a starter I've just had to shove some poor bastard into a body bag. I know damb well I'm gonna have to tell his family he's dead but hey thanks for asking.
What caused the accident? --well a clue might be the truck did a u turn.
What could the bikie have done to avoid the acccident.
The biker could have worn a Hi Vis vest which would have made him more visible.

Cut n paste a bit and you have
What caused the accident?
The biker could have worn a Hi Vis vest which would have made him more visible.

Usarka

11th February 2011, 19:26

Maybe it's about time the public started to get pissed off with the shoddy sensationalist "journalism" (I use that term loosely) in this country.

Infortainment is key these days, reaction is more important than information.

Coldrider

11th February 2011, 19:41

Just a thought guys n gals. maybee it'd be a good idea before tossing vitorol around and getting all pissed at each other we could wait for the CSI and coroners report.that would be months away and won't make national news like the policemans comment did.
Half the country probably think he broke the law not wearing Hi Viz jacket, much like alot (i mean alot), thought 'ride on headlight on' was law 20 years ago.

Smifffy

11th February 2011, 20:17

Warning, don't believe everything the police have to say or publish.

Particularly on an internet forum :msn-wink:

FJRider

11th February 2011, 20:22

This is an outrage irrespective of what actually happened.

OR .... what was actually said ... :lol: :killingme

FJRider

11th February 2011, 20:24

What, like the officer that was interviewed ? :innocent:

HE was there ....were YOU ... ???

Grantman_

11th February 2011, 21:49

Fact: Doesn't matter how observant or careful you are, you can still get nailed in a second by someone else. Doesn't matter how goggle eyed you are, what vehicle you're using, or how much you've insulated yourself by trying to allocate some responsibility to other riders for their accidents.

<object width="425" height="349"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Sro4j3osU-o?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Sro4j3osU-o?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="349"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="349"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cH03ZrcckHw?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cH03ZrcckHw?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="349"></embed></object>

scumdog

11th February 2011, 23:03

I don't fucken care 'cos I live in the real wold where I had to scrub brain material from the sole of my boots.

but I bet effwit losers never thought of that....just cos they live in a sanitised KB world...and have all the right answers...and I don't need alcamahol.....

Littleman

11th February 2011, 23:37

RiderInBlack

12th February 2011, 04:46

Fact: Doesn't matter how observant or careful you are, you can still get nailed in a second by someone else. Doesn't matter how goggle eyed you are, what vehicle you're using, or how much you've insulated yourself by trying to allocate some responsibility to other riders for their accidents.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sro4j3osU-o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH03ZrcckHw
I would love to hear how Katman as the rider in the Accidents above would have avoided getting hit (and not counting staying at home sucking his thumb). Yes ya ride with ya "Spider-Sense" on full any time you drive or ride, but as Grantman showed above, sometimes that isn't enough.
Personally I'm sick of the Media making it all about the rider in cases where it is clearly the other party at fault as it was with the U-turning Truck.

Usarka

12th February 2011, 07:07

Should tread carefully. What do they teach you young guys these days?

Young? Scumdog's an Inspector...... :shit:

Deano

12th February 2011, 07:35

HE was there ....were YOU ... ???

It doesn't matter in this context.

swbarnett

12th February 2011, 07:37

I live in the real wold where I had to scrub brain material from the sole of my boots.
Everybody's world is different. My world does not involve scrubbing brain material from the sole of my boots. I have never witnessed a major accident or the aftermath thereof. This does not make my world any less "real". I would hazard a guess that my world is more representative of that of the general populace than yours. This does not make your world any less real either. However, it does mean that your view of the frequency of carnage on our roads is somewhat scewed.

The roads are not as dangerous as TPTB would have us believe. Yes, they must be treated with respect or they'll bite but the odds of the average driver/rider coming to grief are still pretty low.

swbarnett

12th February 2011, 07:48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sro4j3osU-o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH03ZrcckHw
[FONT=Comic Sans MS]I would love to hear how Katman as the rider in the Accidents above would have avoided getting hit
First of all I'm not Katman but I do agree with a lot (but not all) he says (if only he could deliver it better).

In the first one the corner is blind so I would've cornered a little slower and had enough control left over to pull right and go between the car and the edge of the road. My wife has done exactly this coming home from Hamilton to Auckland.

As for the second, there appears to be sufficient room to the left and enough time with quick reactions to leave the road and avoid the collision. And if you can't get the bike off the road then dump the bike and run. Again I know of this happening. A colleuge in Wellington had to dump their bike while waiting at the lights as a truck cut the corner right through them. Both rider and pillion got off without a scratch - the bike was totalled.

riffer

12th February 2011, 07:59

Agreed. And for every video that Grantman could link to, there would be 1000 incidents where the motorcyclist COULD have done something which would have mitigated the extent of the damage.

Exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis

oldrider

12th February 2011, 08:35

First of all I'm not Katman but I do agree with a lot (but not all) he says (if only he could deliver it better).

In the first one the corner is blind so I would've cornered a little slower and had enough control left over to pull right and go between the car and the edge of the road. My wife has done exactly this coming home from Hamilton to Auckland.

As for the second, there appears to be sufficient room to the left and enough time with quick reactions to leave the road and avoid the collision. And if you can't get the bike off the road then dump the bike and run. Again I know of this happening. A colleuge in Wellington had to dump their bike while waiting at the lights as a truck cut the corner right through them. Both rider and pillion got off without a scratch - the bike was totalled.

Passive roads are not dangerous but the idiots who frequent them "are"!

I like being alive and as close to original condition as can keep myself.

Therefore I pay more attention to the idiots than I do the road!

I always try to entertain an escape plan B in my conciousness when riding or driving!

IMHO motorcycling is a solitary experience and I prefer riding on my own or with as small a group as possible!

I am not antisocial either I only dance with one partner at a time too, in order to maximise the experience.

Elysium

12th February 2011, 09:17

Therefore I pay more attention to the idiots than I do the road!

.

You should be watching both equally. The road is just as dangerous as the idiots who ride/drive them.

Anyway everybody just remember that this isn't a "perfect world" and "Shit happens"

FJRider

12th February 2011, 09:37

You should be watching both equally. The road is just as dangerous as the idiots who ride/drive them.

Anyway everybody just remember that this isn't a "perfect world" and "Shit happens"

I've found it easier and less mind numbing ... just worrying about the 100 metres of roadway (and ALL vehicles in it) directly in front of me ...

Thinking what the worst possible actions, of those other road users, could do ... keeps you amused ... and alert ... when they sometimes do ...

swbarnett

12th February 2011, 10:13

Passive roads are not dangerous but the idiots who frequent them "are"!
In a statistical sense those idiots aren't that dangerous either. It's just that life today is so safe they appear to be dangerous in comparison.

I like being alive and as close to original condition as can keep myself.

Therefore I pay more attention to the idiots than I do the road!

I always try to entertain an escape plan B in my conciousness when riding or driving!
Totally agree.

IMHO motorcycling is a solitary experience and I prefer riding on my own or with as small a group as possible!

I am not antisocial either I only dance with one partner at a time too, in order to maximise the experience.
I haven't been on many group rides but I didn't enjoy the ones I have done as much as solo riding. Usually it's either just me and sometimes my wife joins me on her bike.

scumdog

12th February 2011, 17:10

yachtie10

12th February 2011, 17:13

Sorry guys, venting a bit.

Had a kinda rough week....

Have to aplaud this pity Katman cant do the same

RiderInBlack

12th February 2011, 17:28

First of all I'm not Katman but I do agree with a lot (but not all) he says (if only he could deliver it better).

In the first one the corner is blind so I would've cornered a little slower and had enough control left over to pull right and go between the car and the edge of the road. My wife has done exactly this coming home from Hamilton to Auckland.

As for the second, there appears to be sufficient room to the left and enough time with quick reactions to leave the road and avoid the collision. And if you can't get the bike off the road then dump the bike and run. Again I know of this happening. A colleuge in Wellington had to dump their bike while waiting at the lights as a truck cut the corner right through them. Both rider and pillion got off without a scratch - the bike was totalled.
In retrospect having looked at the videos, you may think you could or would have done as you suggested in those two cases, BUT (I am dam sure of this) in the real world I would expect you would be very lucky to have done so in place of those riders. I would expect in the real world you would be lucky to end up in Hospital and not the Morgue. I would also hope that it that case that you as a rider was not blamed for being hit in those accidents. I live in the real World. I've seen stupid stuff happen to careful people and stupid people get away with the unbelievable. When comes to accidents, it's all over before ya can think of the best way to deal with it. Luck escapes & near miss happen way too many times, that some people think that those that do get hit are to blame regardless, instead of accepting that they have been luck that it didn't happen to them..

Katman

12th February 2011, 17:45

When comes to accidents, it's all over before ya can think of the best way to deal with it.

Too many people accept accidents as things they can't avoid.

The reality is that better use of the brain can preclude a huge number of accidents while better motorcycling skills can preclude the same number again.

Those who meekly concede that "accidents happen" are not trying hard enough.

FJRider

12th February 2011, 17:52

Lucky escapes & near miss happen way too many times, that some people think that those that do get hit are to blame regardless, instead of accepting that they have been luck that it didn't happen to them..

Too often the near-misses are put down to their supreme motorcycle skills .... and situation recognition abilitys ...

miloking

12th February 2011, 17:57

Sorry guys, venting a bit.

Had a kinda rough week....

Have they raised the quota you have to meet again? Bastards! I also hate it when its busy week at work....

swbarnett

12th February 2011, 18:03

Sorry guys, venting a bit.

Had a kinda rough week....
No worries. We all need to vent from time to time. My job can get pretty stressfull but I'm sure it doesn't really compare to yours.

Grantman_

12th February 2011, 18:06

In the first one the corner is blind so I would've cornered a little slower and had enough control left over to pull right and go between the car and the edge of the road. My wife has done exactly this coming home from Hamilton to Auckland.

As for the second, there appears to be sufficient room to the left and enough time with quick reactions to leave the road and avoid the collision. And if you can't get the bike off the road then dump the bike and run. Again I know of this happening. A colleuge in Wellington had to dump their bike while waiting at the lights as a truck cut the corner right through them. Both rider and pillion got off without a scratch - the bike was totalled.

To describe that as wishful would be exaggerating. The first accident wasn't determined by the speed of the rider but by the speed of the car. The hard reality is that the rider could have been going as slow as you've mentally envisioned yourself travelling, or even slower. You simply don't know. You could be edging around a blind corner at any speed and not be able to get out of the way in the moments it would take a vehicle to cover the visible distance.

You may as well put forward a safety measure of wasting time in the morning to avoid some catastrophic intersection in time. Futile, naive, laughable and grasping at straws. Some people simply don't want to accept reality, reality that regardless of taking all precautions, you can die or have an accident in a heartbeat and have done nothing to save yourself. This reality isn't limited to the road, it is a fact of life. Some people feel forced to commit mental contortions in order to rationalise the impossible delusion that they can always influence any random encounter in their favour.

You see all those vehicles travelling in the opposite direction, they can veer into your lane in a heartbeat. Has it happened? You bet. Fear not, you can control this situation by not travelling on the road. You control airplane accident death by not flying or living above ground where planes could hit you. You control your random murder by inventing a time machine to periodically check the future. Ad infinitum.

RiderInBlack

12th February 2011, 18:15

Too often the near-misses are put down to their supreme motorcycle skills .... and situation recognition abilitys ...Aye, which turn leads to cocky riders that are over inflated in their believe in their perceived "supreme motorcycle skill". It's at that time as a rider you are really at risk, because ya foolish believe that it can't happen to you or that if it does, you are so shit-hot you will avoid it.
Personally, I accept that I am not prefect, and that I will make cock-up's. It allows me to entertain the idea that it can happen to me, so that I ride/drive with that in mind, and if it does, that I can more easily own that I can be at fault or that it happened anyway regardless of my efforts. To ride I accept that if I ride (or do anything for that matter) that there is a risk shit might happen and I could be killed, To really live I have to accept that and ride (live) anyway. I rather that than die having having had a long and boring life (which is IMHO a waste of the gift of life)..

swbarnett

12th February 2011, 18:16

In retrospect having looked at the videos, you may think you could or would have done as you suggested in those two cases, BUT (I am dam sure of this) in the real world I would expect you would be very lucky to have done so in place of those riders.
Luck doesn't really enter in to it (although it can't hurt). It's about riding in the subconscious. The subconscious mind is one hell of a lot faster than the conscious.

When comes to accidents, it's all over before ya can think of the best way to deal with it.
To paraphrase Maverick - "You don't have time to think. If you think, you're dead.". Let your subconscious do all the work.

Luck escapes & near miss happen way too many times, that some people think that those that do get hit are to blame regardless, instead of accepting that they have been luck that it didn't happen to them..
Don't get me wrong. I don't blame the rider for not avoiding an accident but, in the end, ther's no point in being dead right.

RiderInBlack

12th February 2011, 18:19

To describe that as wishful would be exaggerating.................. You control your random murder by inventing a time machine to periodically check the future. Ad infinitum.Spot on. Exactly.

swbarnett

12th February 2011, 18:31

To describe that as wishful would be exaggerating. The first accident wasn't determined by the speed of the rider but by the speed of the car. The hard reality is that the rider could have been going as slow as you've mentally envisioned yourself travelling, or even slower. You simply don't know. You could be edging around a blind corner at any speed and not be able to get out of the way in the moments it would take a vehicle to cover the visible distance.
It is incredible how fast the human brain can react in the subconscious. All that was needed in the case of the first video was a quick wiggle to the right using the subconscious brain. I've seen it done and done it myself. If you try to think through your options at the time you're dead.

You may as well put forward a safety measure of wasting time in the morning to avoid some catastrophic intersection in time. Futile, naive, laughable and grasping at straws.
Totally agree.

Some people simply don't want to accept reality, reality that regardless of taking all precautions, you can die or have an accident in a heartbeat and have done nothing to save yourself.
Again I totally agree. I'm just saying that I don't believe that there was nothing that could have been done in the posted videos.

Some people feel forced to commit mental contortions in order to rationalise the impossible delusion that they can always influence any random encounter in their favour.
I fully accept that there ARE situations beyond control. A meteor could hit me as I type.

You see all those vehicles travelling in the opposite direction, they can veer into your lane in a heartbeat. Has it happened?
Yes, to me personally. That's what the road shoulder is for. Thankfully I haven't yet had anyone veer completely in to my shoulder. That would negate the affect of my avoidance maneuver.

Fear not, you can control this situation by not travelling on the road. You control airplane accident death by not flying or living above ground where planes could hit you. You control your random murder by inventing a time machine to periodically check the future. Ad infinitum.
Indeed. This is something I will never advocate.

Katman

12th February 2011, 18:58

You control your random murder by inventing a time machine to periodically check the future. Ad infinitum.

And stupidity will always have an excuse for stupidity.

Grantman_

12th February 2011, 19:14

And stupidity will always have an excuse for stupidity.

It is common.

Katman

12th February 2011, 19:17

It is common.

Is it something you aspire to?

FJRider

12th February 2011, 19:25

Is it something you aspire to?

Stupidity is something that takes practice to perfect ... sadly there are experts in this field ... :shutup:

Even sadder ... they don't know how good they are at it ... :blink:

Grantman_

12th February 2011, 20:05

Is it something you aspire to?

Nope.

..............................

Fluffy Cat

13th February 2011, 13:29

Is it something you aspire to?

A true fool who knows not what he truly is.
Please entertain more......Mr Katman.

rwh

13th February 2011, 13:39

And stupidity will always have an excuse for stupidity.

FFS. A little hyperbole tacked on the end is no reason to dis the entire post/poster.

Richard

Katman

13th February 2011, 14:24

FFS. A little hyperbole tacked on the end is no reason to dis the entire post/poster.

Richard

As has already been said a few posts up, for every video of a motorcycle accident where there is seemingly nothing that could be done to avoid it I could show you 1000 where there is plenty of things that could easily have changed the outcome.

To post up two videos saying "See, see, see..........." smacks of desperation.

Grantman_

13th February 2011, 14:38

To post up two videos saying "See, see, see..........." smacks of desperation.

Cementing a basic fact of life. No desperation on my part.

Katman

13th February 2011, 14:41

Cementing a basic fact of life. No desperation on my part.

I think the most basic fact of life is that we're all going to die one day.

Doesn't mean that we shouldn't look towards ways of prolonging our life in the meantime though.

Grantman_

13th February 2011, 15:11

I think the most basic fact of life is that we're all going to die one day.

Doesn't mean that we shouldn't look towards ways of prolonging our life in the meantime though.

Absolutely.

rwh

13th February 2011, 18:06

As has already been said a few posts up, for every video of a motorcycle accident where there is seemingly nothing that could be done to avoid it I could show you 1000 where there is plenty of things that could easily have changed the outcome.

To post up two videos saying "See, see, see..........." smacks of desperation.

I don't think anybody disagrees that there are many cases that an accident could be avoided. The argument (mostly promoted by you) that was being disputed was that every accident could be avoided. But rather than argue that, you chose to ignore most of the post and argue the obvious exaggeration, which is completely pointless.

Richard

Katman

13th February 2011, 18:12

The argument (mostly promoted by you) that was being disputed was that every accident could be avoided.

But I've not actually said that, have I?

Comprehension is sorely lacking on this site.

rwh

13th February 2011, 18:27

But I've not actually said that, have I?

That's quite possible, though it's an impression that comes through quite strongly, given that you respond with something like that to almost every crash report.

Comprehension is sorely lacking on this site.

Along with clarity of expression, yes.

Richard

rwh

13th February 2011, 18:31

But I've not actually said that, have I?

Also, by the way, that's nothing to do with the point I was making either.

Richard

Katman

13th February 2011, 18:35

That's quite possible, though it's an impression that comes through quite strongly, given that you respond with something like that to almost every crash report.

That's because with "almost every crash report" there most certainly is something that could have been done to avoid it.

Are you starting to understand the difference between 'every' and 'almost every'?

(And even the accidents that there doesn't appear to be anything that could have altered it, it certainly does no harm to examine the possibility that something might have been done).

tri boy

13th February 2011, 18:45

Hasn't anyone kicked cockman off his soap box yet?
(Like a frecking dunny budgie buzzing about while you take a dump)

rwh

13th February 2011, 18:47

That's because with "almost every crash report" there most certainly is something that could have been done to avoid it.

Are you starting to understand the difference between 'every' and 'almost every'?

Yep, got that quite well, thanks.

(And even the accidents that there doesn't appear to be anything that could have altered it, it certainly does no harm to examine the possibility that something might have been done).

I guess it's when you 'examine' that possiblity in the cases where most consider it unlikely, or there are simply too few facts known to have any idea, that the impression is formed that you think it's 'every'.

The main problem, though, is that by 'examining the possibility' in every case, you disrespect the rider, who in circumstances you can never be fully aware of (even if they tell you what they can), failed to avoid an accident.

Who knows what could have gone wrong in the heat of an accident. Moving objects create a distraction, which is good because that may well be what lets you know that front wheel is turning - but if a pedestrian hesitates on the other side of the road a moment earlier, that needs processing too, and the turning wheel could easily be missed.

Richard

Katman

13th February 2011, 19:02

The main problem, though, is that by 'examining the possibility' in every case, you disrespect the rider, who in circumstances you can never be fully aware of (even if they tell you what they can), failed to avoid an accident.

I am of the exact opposite belief.

I believe that not examing all possibilities to learn from an accident is showing disrespect to the rider - particularly in the case of a fatal accident where the only thing that rider has left to offer us is the possibility of a lesson to be learned.

Ocean1

13th February 2011, 19:31

I am of the exact opposite belief.

That's 'cause you're a fuckwit. :yes:

MSTRS

14th February 2011, 08:19

So - it's back to The World vs Katman, eh?

Seems to me that The World has a problem with hearing inconvenient and uncomfortable truths...
Haven't you lot worked out that Katman is the epitome of a Realist?
And Steve? Wouldn't you do well to acknowledge, publicly, that just sometimes nothing could be done to alter an outcome?

t595

14th February 2011, 12:55

That's 'cause you're a fuckwit. :yes:

x 2! maybe someone should do a u-turn infront of him and see if hes as fuckin great as he tells us he is, i've never read so much shit in all my life :tugger::tugger::tugger::tugger:

avgas

14th February 2011, 13:06

To drag this back on topic.

Who hear believes what the police says yet? because that was why everyone wanted a tissue in the first place.

Drew

14th February 2011, 13:15

To drag this back on topic.

Who hear believes what the police says yet? because that was why everyone wanted a tissue in the first place.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha, nearly six hundred posts in this thread and prolly less than 50 of those seem to be understanding of what it was about.

MSTRS

14th February 2011, 13:18

That's about right...slightly under 10% of posts in any thread will be on topic...

R-Soul

14th February 2011, 13:31

Too many people accept accidents as things they can't avoid.

The reality is that better use of the brain can preclude a huge number of accidents while better motorcycling skills can preclude the same number again.

Those who meekly concede that "accidents happen" are not trying hard enough.

I agree - I get irritated with those that don't actively try and improve their technique, control, stability etc, because they prefer throwing their hands up in the air and saying "its fate anyway". Its so fucking easy to take the lazy way out....

oneofsix

14th February 2011, 13:36

I agree - I get irritated with those that don't actively try and improve their technique, control, stability etc, because they prefer throwing their hands up in the air and saying "its fate anyway". Its so fucking easy to take the lazy way out....

but it hurts, both wallet and body. I therefore think it is trite to say that is what they are doing. I look to my mistakes and those of others to learn from them but forums like this allow us to suggest how other sectors of the community can improve as well.

MSTRS

14th February 2011, 13:45

I agree - I get irritated with those that don't actively try and improve their technique, control, stability etc, because they prefer throwing their hands up in the air and saying "its fate anyway". Its so fucking easy to take the lazy way out....

Not sure that is how things are, but some definitely claim, after the fact, they couldn't have done a thing to avoid etc, when they almost certainly could have, will will continue to argue the point or make excuses why they couldn't, and keep doing what they've always done.
But there will also be some that will take on board advice on how to avoid getting into strife in the first place, or out of it during...

... forums like this allow us to suggest how other sectors of the community can improve as well.
How many of 'them' get to read our ramblings, tho?

rustic101

14th February 2011, 13:46

I've solved it!!!

Hi Vis is out - Chopper guard flags are in. It should be Legislated that every bike has one fitted.....Very retro.

oneofsix

14th February 2011, 13:48

I've solved it!!!

Hi Vis is out - Chopper guard flags are in. It should be Legislated that every bike has one fitted.....Very retro.

bags you try them out first in a Wellington Southerly, or better still in Palmy during a blow :innocent:

R-Soul

14th February 2011, 14:15

Me personally - I dont want to die wondering "What could I have done?"

avgas

14th February 2011, 14:23

Me personally - I dont want to die wondering "What could I have done?"
I think you will find it hard to do when your dead anyway.

Elysium

14th February 2011, 15:29

So has anyone waved to a Hi Vis Vest rider yet?

Drew

15th February 2011, 14:27

So has anyone waved to a Hi Vis Vest rider yet?

I thought only chicks and homos wear them, so I make a point of not waving in case some fairy boy takes a fancy.

Fatt Max

15th February 2011, 16:39

I thought only homos wear them.

Oh how fabulous, cant wait till tomorrow....now, hows my wave...? Does my bum look big in this high vis...?

Reckless

15th February 2011, 19:54

Oh how fabulous, cant wait till tomorrow....now, hows my wave...? Does my bum look big in this high vis...?

Mate your arse always looks big!!

Sexy Jaylo butt is the term these days isn't it Maxxy! LOL!!!! :facepalm:

Fatt Max

15th February 2011, 20:24

Mate your arse always looks big!!

Sexy Jaylo butt is the term these days isn't it Maxxy! LOL!!!! :facepalm:

You are such a sweetheart mate xx

Reckless

15th February 2011, 20:28

You are such a sweetheart mate xx

To know me is to love me!! :love:

Thats why I'm single atm I suppose :whocares: LOL!!!

FJRider

15th February 2011, 20:29

So has anyone waved to a Hi Vis Vest rider yet?

Haven't seen one ... :innocent:

avgas

16th February 2011, 08:25

Thats why I'm single atm I suppose
That's good. I don't think we could handle multiple of you.

JohnR

16th February 2011, 09:49

We're going to have to get our facts straight or we'll be destined to be forever seen as a laughing stock.

About 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents are the fault of the motorcyclist or the motorcyclist carries the primary responsibility.

Your post conveniently ignores the deaths and accidents that are single vehicle accidents.

Apparently not wearing hi-viz constitutes fault and primary responsibility.

PrincessBandit

16th February 2011, 17:46

:yawn::yawn::zzzz::zzzz: are we there yet? are we there yet? are we there yet?

Fatt Max

16th February 2011, 18:10

:yawn::yawn::zzzz::zzzz: are we there yet? are we there yet? are we there yet?

Not quite yet, now keep it down in the back or ther will be no ice blocks when we get there. I dont care who started it, I'll finish it.....

davebullet

16th February 2011, 18:30

Thats why I'm single atm I suppose :whocares: LOL!!!

Put a hi-viz on and you might spark Drew's interest

=cJ=

23rd February 2011, 21:45

Just to wade through this, I have a simple trick, if it's a 50/50 call about a manouver, don't do it.

I don't know if you call it defensive, or what, but when I'm not sure what the hell's going on up ahead, I dial back my Rossi-beating speeds to those of a meer mortal.

Let's see, blind corner, not sure, take it easy, bit of dazzle from the sun, back off a bit. Clear road, nothing in sight, better still on the return leg so I've ridden it really recently, give it a handful (of course respecting that if again, I'm not 100% sure, the back off a bit rule applies...).

I view riding outside the limits of the conditions as the biggest mistake a rider can make, whether those conditions are rain, traffic, tiredness, ability or any other factor in the safety of a ride. If you're riding outside the conditions, I believe only dumb luck stands between you and an eventual accident.

Following from this, I believe the key to managing the conditions is managing yourself, and more importantly, your reactions to the conditions. You don't get this by blaming the other guy, you get it by analysing when shit DOES happen, and trying to learn from it if you can.

I belive a lack of situational awareness (AKA awareness of conditions) is one of the key issues which could be addressed to increase safety on our roads today. I do not believe as per the press statement that high vis would help this, as to see high-vis as people still have to develop a situational awareness that allows them to spot it.

I would also argue that high-vis won't help motorcyclists spot gravel, cows, sheep, cars or other hazards all of which can be equally fatal*.

You won't see what your'e not looking for.

*yes, there are degrees of fatality, you can be dead, really dead, or 'eeees goooone! so shush pedants :p

swbarnett

24th February 2011, 07:11

Just to wade through this, I have a simple trick, if it's a 50/50 call about a manouver, don't do it.
Exactly. When I first learnt to drive my father impressed upon me a simple mantra - "If in doubt, don't."

BoristheBiter

24th February 2011, 08:10

Exactly. When I first learnt to drive my father impressed upon me a simple mantra - "If in doubt, don't."

NO can't be that easy, could it?

MSTRS

24th February 2011, 08:11

...I believe the key to managing the conditions is managing yourself, and more importantly, your reactions to the conditions....

Correct. It takes less effort to be proactive, so you won't need to be as reactive...

R-Soul

24th February 2011, 10:55

NO can't be that easy, could it?

You think that's easy? So why do even old experienced riders still make dodgy decisions?

Or should that have been in sarcasm font?

Pussy

24th February 2011, 11:52

Correct. It takes less effort to be proactive, so you won't need to be as reactive...

Spot on, John!

There is a saying in aviation...
"A superior pilot is one who uses his superior judgement to avoid situations that may require the use of his superior skills".

Same mantra, really!

oldrider

24th February 2011, 21:19

Spot on, John!

There is a saying in aviation...
"A superior pilot is one who uses his superior judgement to avoid situations that may require the use of his superior skills".

Same mantra, really!

Hmmm, there are old pilots and bold pilots but there are not so many old bold pilots eh Pussy? :shifty:

Of course that was penned by the safety Nazis to back up their own point of view against those daring young men in their flying machines!

Echoed in the world of motorcycles even today but now of course those daring young men are costing us all through the high ACC levies so the safety Nazis have loaded the dice against them yet again! :yes:

Those that can do, those that can't dream up safety rules to save those that can from hurting themselves! :doh:

Oh happy happy day, someone to do my thinking for me! :thud:

fleebag4@

28th February 2011, 16:26

Last time i checked a rider wasn't required to wear a vest by law! The police condone the Truck drivers action and even WORSE is the bikers in NZ standing up for the police and truckie! I wonder why we pay more reg than AUS< UK and US! Yes, go for it, someone say move there then. Bikers need to get tougher and stick together to get the government and police to WAKE UP! We're not always in the wrong!:weird:

PS: Dairy example is great!

steve_t

28th February 2011, 16:33

caseye

28th February 2011, 16:47

News to me too.
General concesus is that Hi Vis would not have altered a thing in this situation.
We could all ride to Parliament to tell em that but what good would it do?
Better we get out and do something for those poor buggers in ChristChurch.

Brett

28th February 2011, 17:08

Shouldn't have to wear Hi Viz. I doubt it would really make much difference anyway. Most drivers that don't see riders still will not see riders even if they are completely fluro yellow. People don't see riders because they don't LOOK.

I drive a big ass Toyota Prado when not on the GixxerMonster and have had many many dumb shits still pull out in front of me having not seen me. If they can't spot an oversized 4x4 they are not going to see a little yellow crotchrocket let along a rider wearing a simple hi viz vest.

Katman

28th February 2011, 17:17

Most drivers that don't see riders still will not see riders even if they are completely fluro yellow. People don't see riders because they don't LOOK.

I completely agree.

Best we start up-skilling then and taking the responsibility of LOOKING upon our own shoulders.

If we don't, I can almost guarantee it won't be long till we're compelled to dress in day-glo.

Bassmatt

28th February 2011, 17:28

Katman

28th February 2011, 17:30

After reading the " Albany ACC Checkpoint thread " i fear it may already be too late.

Yep, all those years of crying "waaaaaa, they didn't see me" are coming back to bite us in the arse.

Toaster

7th March 2011, 12:46

I completely agree.

Best we start up-skilling then and taking the responsibility of LOOKING upon our own shoulders.

If we don't, I can almost guarantee it won't be long till we're compelled to dress in day-glo.

I completely agree. It's our own responsibility to ride defensively and anticipate as best we can rather than just assume nothing will happen.

All we can control is our own actions, behaviour and skill level.

Sheep mind control has as yet eluded me.

Drew

7th March 2011, 13:45

I completely agree...:killingmePoo lick

DEATH_INC.

7th March 2011, 13:57

my father impressed upon me a simple mantra - "If in doubt, don't."
I thought it went 'If in doubt, GAS IT!' :innocent:

riffer

7th March 2011, 14:07

I thought it went 'If in doubt, GAS IT!' :innocent:

Nah, I'm pretty sure that quote was originally attributed to what to do if the tail went wide in a skid situation. Still applies too.

Drew

7th March 2011, 16:19

I thought it went 'If in doubt, GAS IT!' :innocent:

That's how I learnt it too bro. It's less effort to twist the throttle further than it is, to back it off and then go for the brake.

MSTRS

7th March 2011, 16:39

It's almost a given, if you are in that situation. Back off - and something's gonna break.:innocent:

Drew

7th March 2011, 17:00

It's almost a given, if you are in that situation. Back off - and something's gonna break.:innocent:

Touche .

swbarnett

7th March 2011, 17:46

I thought it went 'If in doubt, GAS IT!' :innocent:
It mostly refers to situations where you're the one making the decision to move or not (sitting at a give way or deciding whether to take a corner at a great rate of knots for example). If you have any doubt about the manouvre don't do it.

Certainly on a bike gassing it can sometimes be the better option when someone is about to cross your path when they shouldn't depending on the timing.