Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council (Ex Motorcycle Safety Levy Establishment Group)

[Pixie]

.....and they say that talking to yourself is a sign of insanity.... :facepalm:

So who's claiming sanity/ - it's not what it's cracked up to be.:drool:

[riffer]

Why are you being so evasive?

Sorry Pixie. Not being evasive. I've told you everything I know. If refusing to speculate on things I don't know about is evasive, I plead guilty as sin.

[riffer]

This seems to imply that the "18 times" really is bullshit.

Oops,what a give away

Of course it's bullshit. We all said it at the time, and it still stands now. Doesn't change anything the Government did though does it. We all KNOW it was a lie.

[Pixie]

I'm still waiting for MCSUC to ask for submission of ideas to reduce the motorcycle road toll.

Or perhaps they know it all already and the committee take turns pulling ideas out of each others arses.:buggerd:

[riffer]

Now you're just being an arsehole. There's no point talking to people if they're not prepared to listen.

See you later.

[Eyegasm]

I'm still waiting for MCSUC to ask for submission of ideas to reduce the motorcycle road toll.

Or perhaps they know it all already and the committee take turns pulling ideas out of each others arses.:buggerd:

So what are your ideas on reducing the motorcycle road toll?

Hate to admit it, But Katman has said multiple times that it is up to us to reduce the accident rate of motorcyclists. We need to take responsibilty for our own actions.

So personally I am going to be taking the most practical steps to avoid joining the statistics.

P.S. I still hate the fact that Katman puts his message out there at the wrong time or wrong thread.

[Smifffy]

So what are your ideas on reducing the motorcycle road toll?

Hate to admit it, But Katman has said multiple times that it is up to us to reduce the accident rate of motorcyclists. We need to take responsibilty for our own actions.

So personally I am going to be taking the most practical steps to avoid joining the statistics.


Yeah? Well, I was doing that before the levy went up.

All I want to know is what am I going to get for my money?

When did they begin to collect the levy?

What has happened since? One meeting? It's not like they even needed the levy to set up the group and have the meetings, since all of that is funded from the ACC operating budget, as we've been told multiple times.

If the McSAC doesn't want to tell us what they are doing, then it isn't really that unreasonable to think that they are sitting on their hands.

Or maybe their interests lie elsewhere, say Africa?

I can take the individual responsibility to ride to the best of my ability and do my utmost to avoid becoming a statistic entirely free of charge, Messrs Smith & Morgan, so what are you going to do for me?

[Berries]

I'm still waiting for MCSUC to ask for submission of ideas to reduce the motorcycle road toll.

Or perhaps they know it all already and the committee take turns pulling ideas out of each others arses.:buggerd:


Now you're just being an arsehole. There's no point talking to people if they're not prepared to listen.
Fair comment I would have thought. Our $30 has been taken and yet there isn't any official word about what is being done with it or whether we will have any input in to how it is spent. All we hear is KB bullshit about hi-viz vests, but until there is something official what else can be expected?

[riffer]

Fair comment I would have thought. Our $30 has been taken and yet there isn't any official word about what is being done with it or whether we will have any input in to how it is spent.

I totally agree with you mate. And so does Brent. But there's nothing him or I can do about it without him being kicked off, and that ain't helping anyone.

Brent is presently securing an email address that will allow you to directly send your queries to ACC themselves. This is being arranged with the coordinator in charge of the programme. Any enquiries deemed worthy of response will be directly to the appropriate people.

This is Brent at work for you right now. Watch this space Monday for the email.

[MSTRS]

Even an 'official statement' from the panel would help.

You know..."We acknowledge your concerns re the fund. We are currently investigating the options available to us, for the best use of these monies on your behalf. Further statements will follow when we have something to report."
Tells us nothing, of course, but we know that now...

The average, ordinary motorcyclist is running out of patience with the deafening silence. S/he may not care about their individual $30, but s/he does know who is in charge of 'spending it' and s/he wants to know what is happening.

[Katman]

The average, ordinary motorcyclist is running out of patience with the deafening silence. S/he may not care about their individual $30, but s/he does know who is in charge of 'spending it' and s/he wants to know what is happening.

We've comfortably sat back for decades and allowed clowns to bring motorcycling to the point it is now.

It's not unreasonable to be expected to wait a few months for something concrete to be announced to us.

[Kickaha]

It's not unreasonable to be expected to wait a few months for something concrete to be announced to us.

Yes it is I want to know NOW :motu:

[MSTRS]

The $30 has been collected since July 1st.
I know the Mcsac has not long been 'empanelled', but surely we can be told something?
Perhaps an official 'Stop riding like cocks, and your levies will go down. We're working on ways to convince you.' from the panel - that would make you happy too.

[Katman]

Perhaps an official 'Stop riding like cocks, and your levies will go down. We're working on ways to convince you.' from the panel - that would make you happy too.

They'd just be labelled as Katman clones.

(But yes, it would make me ecstatic). :eek:

[Smifffy]

The $30 has been collected since July 1st.
I know the Mcsac has not long been 'empanelled', but surely we can be told something?
Perhaps an official 'Stop riding like cocks, and your levies will go down. We're working on ways to convince you.' from the panel - that would make you happy too.

I can't see the levies ever going down.

[Katman]

I can't see the levies ever going down.

If we got our shit together and stopped falling off so often we could hit them with some unrefutable ammo.

The ball's in our court.

[riffer]

If we got our shit together and stopped falling off so often we could hit them with some unrefutable ammo.

The ball's in our court.


I'd love to think so dude. But I fear Smiffy's pessimistic outlook couldn't be truer with this Government. Many times of late I've pondered the possibility of another 6,000 bikes this time on Parliament steps.

[ynot slow]

Agree with Katman(did I mean to)about not falling off,I don't know ANYONE who goes out to fall off whilst riding.Buuuuut shit happens,and either it's riders fault or not,and THAT part(fault)is hard to determine,biker will say "you didn't stop(and biker maybe speeding)" other crash victim will say"didn't see you" sounds familiar eh?

Off hand I do wonder how many "didn't see you" excuse comes from the fact the other road user looked both ways,nothing coming,and thought road was clear and pulls out into bike,who appears from nowhere(and maybe at speed).Our own worst enemy maybe.

And from a personal point a few weeks ago heading home a guy in an SS Commode(ore)went passed me at 130plus(I was doing 120ish)so I sat behind him (2 second rule etc)at speeds I was happy with,but the thing pissing me off was the times his car crossed the centre line on right hand bends,while I was well inside mine.Followed him for approx 130km on main highway and provision highway.

So maybe this levy can be used educating all road users about all road traffic,emphasising car drivers about bikes,i.e they (riders)may wear dark clothes,hard to see(not with lights on,but with cars having day lights negates that),can accelerate quicker than most cars and one minute not in view,next beside car,use the bloody mirrors-not inside but both wing mirrors(even make reversing via wing mirrors part of driving test).

[oldrider]

So what are your ideas on reducing the motorcycle road toll?

Hate to admit it, But Katman has said multiple times that it is up to us to reduce the accident rate of motorcyclists. We need to take responsibilty for our own actions.

So personally I am going to be taking the most practical steps to avoid joining the statistics.

P.S. I still hate the fact that Katman puts his message out there at the wrong time or wrong thread.

I think what annoys most of us is the fact that Katman is right!

The only thing (in this equation) that we as individuals control, is our own behaviour!

Physician heal thy self. :ride: Ride in a manner that earns us the respect of our detractors! :mellow:

It won't be easy and it will take time but it is (currently) our only choice! :facepalm:

[NONONO]

Katman is right? What bollix.
The numbers where rigged from the start, the stats where much more than shonky they where absolute lies.
What bloody difference will it make to this government how we ride, or how well we look after ourselves, if what they want is revenue to prop up their nonsense about preparing ACC for sale?
Talk about naive.

FFS! Head out of arse.
Stop allowing this one man moralistic, keep Katman in the headlines show to divert us from the real issue.
We, and the NZ public were lied to (still being lied to) to divert attention away from the real reason for the hikes...bye bye ACC. Hello private insurance and the litagation that goes with it.
Katman...Bah!

[avgas]

If we got our shit together and stopped falling off so often we could hit them with some unrefutable ammo.

The ball's in our court.
Yes and No.
We have ripped apart every bullshit stat they have chucked at us.......and yet still everything thing went ahead as planned for them.

If we were the screw them over, we have to make the rest of NZ think they are getting screwed. Not that we are hard done by.
At the end of the day, there are numbers of people whom blatantly don't like us..........regardless of how we ride.

It will be impossible to convince them that we are safe. Riding safe only keeps us alive. They literally don't give a fuck about us, and never have.

[Katman]

We have ripped apart every bullshit stat they have chucked at us.......and yet still everything thing went ahead as planned for them.



What percentage of motorcycle accidents do you imagine are avoidable?

I imagine it's shitloads.

Showing a massive downturn in those stats will see us gain unquestionable public support.

[Mom]

Yes and No.
We have ripped apart every bullshit stat they have chucked at us.......and yet still everything thing went ahead as planned for them.



We also have people who purport to represent us bikers up close and personal with the PTB and us poor folk on the outside must accept that "they "represent us. No matter how much these "representatives" protest to the contrary, they accept what has happened and will work alongside the PTB to get the best outcome for us.

The best outcome in a lot of minds is nothing like the thieves of the day say is best.

[bogan]

What percentage of motorcycle accidents do you imagine are avoidable?

I imagine it's shitloads.

Showing a massive downturn in those stats will see us gain unquestionable public support.

Two different issues; yes there are too many easily avoidable accidents, and yes TPTB are hiding behind bullshit stats to bully us off the road. No reason why we can't change both.

[Katman]

Two different issues; yes there are too many easily avoidable accidents, and yes TPTB are hiding behind bullshit stats to bully us off the road. No reason why we can't change both.

First you need public support for the second.

[bogan]

You need public support for the second.

Or a big enough stick! :Pokey: :spanking:

[NONONO]

First you need public support for the second.

Again, nonsense.
The 2 big issues at the time of the ACC proposals to hike the levies were, rego and the provision of counseling for rape victims (anyone remember the absolute disgust on Smiths face at the yacht club when he refused to take the petition from Rape Crisis?).
The provision of counseling was made so discriminatory it became impossible to obtain. Then suddenly, WITHOUT the massive public outcry Katman believes is needed for anything to change) it was reinstated.
Why?
Patient, persistent lobbying by Rape Crisis and a few poorly reported, but well planned actions, by Rape Crisis supporters.

[Katman]

The provision of counseling was made so discriminatory it became impossible to obtain. Then suddenly, WITHOUT the massive public outcry Katman believes is needed for anything to change) it was reinstated.


I imagine that the government simply realised that they were on a losing wicket with that one as they would have virtually no support from the public with cries of "Yeah, those rape victims deserve everything they get".

Motorcyclists don't have the same sympathetic public ear as rape victims do.

[NONONO]

Thats what you imagine is it?
Sympathetic ear?
Oh lord.

[MSTRS]

We also have people who purport to represent us bikers up close and personal with the PTB and us poor folk on the outside must accept that "they" represent us.


Getting back to 'them'...just how well are they representing us, when they tell us nothing, are apparently under gag orders individually and collectively from saying anything and will be removed from the panel if they do say anything? I'm sure that didn't come from them.
So much for a fund set up for, and run by, bikers, without interference...
Can I hear the echo of BULLSHIT?

[Katman]

Getting back to 'them'...just how well are they representing us,

A damn sight better than the motorcyclists who have gotten us into this mess in the first place.

[MSTRS]

A damn sight better than the motorcyclists who have gotten us into this mess in the first place.

How do you work that out?
They haven't done anything, apart from organise themselves into 'committees'...

[ynot slow]

A damn sight better than the motorcyclists who have gotten us into this mess in the first place.

And up to us motorcyclists to get us out of it(public thinking we're all suicide jockeys)by not crashing by ourselves or perceived that way by media.

And trying to get info as numerous people have tried from said council who are gagged until the powers that be let them speak the corporate words,maybe we're all on a hiding to nothing.

[Usarka]

A damn sight better than the motorcyclists who have gotten us into this mess in the first place.

You do know that TPTB read social media forums eh.

Have you ever considered the possibility that your continual public vocal criticism of bikers is influencing the decision makers?

ps the question is hypothical so don't bother with the arguments - i don't expect you to entertain any possibility of being wrong.

[Pussy]

And up to us motorcyclists to get us out of it(public thinking we're all suicide jockeys)by not crashing by ourselves or perceived that way by media.



That's the crux of it.
A bit of common sense and courtesy would go a VERY long way to improving the motorcycling image.

Edit: And leaving the egos at home.

[riffer]

You do know that TPTB read social media forums eh.

Have you ever considered the possibility that your continual public vocal criticism of bikers is influencing the decision makers?

ps the question is hypothical so don't bother with the arguments - i don't expect you to entertain any possibility of being wrong.

Sorry dude, despite what the majority of Kiwibikers think, the rest of the country (including TPTB) really doesn't give a shit what's said on Kiwiiker. And they really don't give a shit about bikers either. We're a small minority, and the general population think we generally are two wheeled boy racers.

Perceptions have been made from years before this site was created and it's going to take a lot of work to change them. There is only ONE way. Reduce the motorcycle toll to nearly zero (excepting "accidents" which are obviously not the motorcyclist's fault). Anything else we do is just icing on the cake.

And I know that's not fault but it's reality. Don't like it? Don't ride.

[Usarka]

Sorry dude, despite what the majority of Kiwibikers think, the rest of the country (including TPTB) really doesn't give a shit what's said on Kiwiiker. And they really don't give a shit about bikers either. We're a small minority, and the general population think we generally are two wheeled boy racers.

Perceptions have been made from years before this site was created and it's going to take a lot of work to change them. There is only ONE way. Reduce the motorcycle toll to nearly zero (excepting "accidents" which are obviously not the motorcyclist's fault). Anything else we do is just icing on the cake.

And I know that's not fault but it's reality. Don't like it? Don't ride.

I disagree with the first point - i remember a documented instance of kb being quoted in parliament, and we have people from this very council JOINING kb to voice their opinion. Sure they may be bikers but they joined for political purposes.

It's been a golden rule for centuries in every aspect of life including (and especially) politics - don't air your dirty laundry in public.

Having said that there is definitely a place for constructive and positive comments, initiatives etc.

And in regards to zero road toll, it's a great ideal and one we should aim for but it's a poor objective. There is a framework for setting objectives that say something like they need to be Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic and Timely. If they aren't all of the above then they almost worthless and you'll have a shit show in hell of people taking up the cause. Unfortunately one problem with that is that it's not politically acceptable to say "our target for next year is xxx deaths".

[riffer]

And in regards to zero road toll, it's a great ideal and one we should aim for but it's a poor objective.


Totally agree with you that it's a poor objective. Nevertheless it's the only one I believe they would take any notice of, other than major protests in the streets.

[Katman]

And in regards to zero road toll, it's a great ideal and one we should aim for but it's a poor objective. There is a framework for setting objectives that say something like they need to be Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic and Timely. If they aren't all of the above then they almost worthless and you'll have a shit show in hell of people taking up the cause. Unfortunately one problem with that is that it's not politically acceptable to say "our target for next year is xxx deaths".

I don't think anyone here has ever seriously asked for, or expected, a zero road toll.

But I would place my estimate at 90% of motorcycle accidents being avoidable.

Slashing that figure should be our objective.

[oldrider]

The public negative attitude toward motorcycles and motorcyclists has been with us as long as motorcycles themselves!

The phrase "temporary New Zealander" was alive and well long before I obtained my licence 57 years ago!

Unfortunately people in organisations like AA etc have taken this and used it to emphasise and promote their anti-motorcycle attitudes!

Even more unfortunately these attitudes have been reinforced by the behaviour, road manners and accident statistics of us motorcyclists! (yes, me included)

It is the perception and therefore the "reality" of the general public, that these statistics are true and without question they accept them as true!

Any attempt to change public opinion from negative to positive will prove futile unless motorcyclists as a whole work together on achieving the desired outcome!

Motorcyclists have been singled out to be used as Judas sheep to lead the gullible public into accepting the governments ACC initiatives as legitimate and necessary because they believe all the negative bullshit that motorcyclists get thrown at them!

Who's next?

This question fell upon deaf ears and the first domino fell quietly into place fully supported by the general public without a murmur!

Diesel vehicles were next actually and this domino has sneaked quietly into place with even less resistance than the motorcycle increases.

Who's next?

It doesn't really matter, the process is well under way!

Motorcyclists were just a tool chosen to start the ball rolling!

Why motorcyclists?

Because they are a disunited group of individuals incapable of becoming an effective organised force of resistance and can be relied upon to act in a predictable manner supportive of the end objective!

Don't agree with that, well, hows it going so far then? :sick:

[Str8 Jacket]

Sorry dude, despite what the majority of Kiwibikers think, the rest of the country (including TPTB) really doesn't give a shit what's said on Kiwiiker.

Sorry to break it to you but they do actually.... I used to flat with a certain politicians "right-hand-man" (featured in the Hollowmen too) that used to log onto to KB, Gay sites and a list of many others to keep up to date with what people are saying, used to spend hours doing so as well!!

Politics; It's all about marketing!


And they really don't give a shit about bikers either.

True, but can you blame them..... ;)

[oneofsix]

I don't think anyone here has ever seriously asked for, or expected, a zero road toll.

But I would place my estimate at 90% of motorcycle accidents being avoidable.

Slashing that figure should be our objective.

True enough but some of that avoidably belongs with others whether it be other road users, roading practices or road furniture it all has to be addressed. Making the bikers the scape goats will only result in negative, rebel attitude.

[StoneY]

We also have people who purport to represent us bikers up close and personal with the PTB and us poor folk on the outside must accept that "they "represent us.

Then make a more pointed effort to get on the inside Anne. 'Us poor folk' ...blah, what a crock.

Maybe less angry rhetoric would get you in a position to actually open a few doors, and ask the questions face to face....getting a bit tired of your 'us and them' bullshit.
Thinly vielled refferences to the fact you still beleive some financial agreement is in place between the rep's home organisations and ACC...despite the huge ammount of information provided to date.



Getting back to 'them'...just how well are they representing us, when they tell us nothing, are apparently under gag orders individually and collectively from saying anything and will be removed from the panel if they do say anything? I'm sure that didn't come from them.
So much for a fund set up for, and run by, bikers, without interference...
Can I hear the echo of BULLSHIT?

Well mate, I have been passed an email address for those wanting a progress report on the MSL to send queries to.
No way I am posting that address in this thread, due to the ammount of ranting nutters that keep making shit up as they go.

Those who want it, PM me, and anyone who I share it with, if you post it in these threads I will never try assist you again....


There will be a website up in the near future (I have been pushing for it to be sooner, but its beyond MY power to make it happen) and it will be full of all the information you all seek, as well as methods to contact the council, put in idea's, and keep a track of the fund.

Personally..... I agree on the 'deafening silence' and have made much noise about that very issue.
I am meeting tomorrow with the project manager to make my case for more public transparency, OK?
I hope that satisfies some of you (tui moment) that some of the council members are trying to do WHATS RIGHT by you noisy sods

Those wanting the e-mail address, PM me
As I say, I am not going to put it on a thread full of nutters and web trolls.

[Bodir]

Well mate, I have been passed an email address for those wanting a progress report on the MSL to send queries to.
No way I am posting that address in this thread, due to the ammount of ranting nutters that keep making shit up as they go.

Those who want it, PM me, and anyone who I share it with, if you post it in these threads I will never try assist you again....


Mate, I am trying hard, but still fail - to trust you as a representative. Gagging order, hints and now this. Plainly threatening people with information withdrawal if they don't conform to your wishes and agenda. You sound more and more like a politician with every new post. Please revert back to a motorcyclist that we can support. After all you are representing US.

[MSTRS]

All we want to know is what (if anything) is happening. If 'they' are willing to give that info, or some of it, to individuals via email, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM with announcing the same publicly where all can see it?

[riffer]

All we want to know is what (if anything) is happening. If 'they' are willing to give that info, or some of it, to individuals via email, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM with announcing the same publicly where all can see it?

I would have thought it was plainly clear John. Here there be trolls.

[StoneY]

Mate, I am trying hard, but still fail - to trust you as a representative. Gagging order, hints and now this. Plainly threatening people with information withdrawal if they don't conform to your wishes and agenda. You sound more and more like a politician with every new post. Please revert back to a motorcyclist that we can support. After all you are representing US.

Well if the trolls would stop creating bullshit based on snippets of information, maybe I wouldnt be so defensive.
Tired of taking shit on this forum quite frankly, and the cheap shots being served from those who cant do the bloody work themselves

[MSTRS]

I would have thought it was plainly clear John. Here there be trolls.

Only a problem if a faceless log-in on KB claiming to be 'the chairman of the Mcsac' is the method of dissemination of that info.
A 2 minute appearance on Close-Up, say, by a face would lay all to rest.
And the whole country gets to hear what's going on, and why.

[oneofsix]

Well if the trolls would stop creating bullshit based on snippets of information, maybe I wouldnt be so defensive.
Tired of taking shit on this forum quite frankly, and the cheap shots being served from those who cant do the bloody work themselves

Noted you sounded friendlier on the ACC campaign thread.
But here by a thread for the Comms person to pass info to a large number of NZ bikers. Trolls can be ignored and don't have to be engaged.
I to am surprised they gaged you but haven't taken the opportunity for the 'official spokesperson' to at least say 'hi more to come later'. I believe Stoney has our interests at heart, may not always think like him (thank god for that) but at least can trust him to try and do what he believes is best for us, but gaging Stoney and then not stepping up is just upsetting and bound to feed the trolls.

[MSTRS]

True enough but some of that avoidably belongs with others whether it be other road users, roading practices or road furniture it all has to be addressed. Making the bikers the scape goats will only result in negative, rebel attitude.

This (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/9044023/motorcyclist-dead-after-collision/) is the sort of thing that KM refers to...totally un-necessary death.

[oneofsix]

This (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/9044023/motorcyclist-dead-after-collision/) is the sort of thing that KM refers to...totally un-necessary death.

be nice if his comments were restricted to those occasions and yes those type of collisions we (riders) need to address. KM tends to down even when the biker has tried to avoid the collision and was perhaps mis-lead by the other vehicle, like a car that swings left then turns right as you go by.
Yes you learn to anticipate fools but fools are infinitely inventive so sometimes it would be nice if they got their ears slapped, like enforcing the when turning left move as far to the left as practical. If you need to swing right before making that left turn then you are either unless or both unless and going too fast.
Because there is no note to the contry and the rider didn't make it one is left to assume he was going too fast but what if it was a rock or loose gravel that caused them to cross the centre line? Now the rider has a part to play in that but if they had chosen their line at a safe speed and hit a gravel spill that they couldn't have seen? Do you take all bends at five k in case? A certain amount of what you do is dependant on others having done their part, like marking road works.

[StoneY]

There is one thing I wish to make utterly clear, on this thread especially

I am stuck in a very hard role to fill..... to be true to those that rode on BIKEOI, and run BRONZ Wellington, and the Federation, and to be a part of MSAC...its a very narrow lane and a very nasty rock on one side, and a concrete wall on the other.

I am an avocate of NO SECRETS but, have to obey certain rules to be a part of the various organisations I am involved with.... sometimes, I just cant win and that may be showing in some of my replies, I am as frsutrated as anyone else with these issues.

I appologise to you all if any of my posts are pissing you off, but, please, walk half a mile in my boots......... they give ya corns AND blisters!!! (bloody SIDI's)

Thanks to those who are 'getting it' with supportive comments...I do appreciate it.

:violin:
:P

[Pixie]

I love the positive outlook expressed here ... and the alternative is to ... not get involved and the govt will still blame the bikers :2thumbsup:
Money has always been available from ACC for safety initiatives.In fact the MSL is likely to eliminate this source of funding in the future.

[Pixie]

So what are your ideas on reducing the motorcycle road toll?

Hate to admit it, But Katman has said multiple times that it is up to us to reduce the accident rate of motorcyclists. We need to take responsibilty for our own actions.

So personally I am going to be taking the most practical steps to avoid joining the statistics.

P.S. I still hate the fact that Katman puts his message out there at the wrong time or wrong thread.

Compulsory driver training based on European licensing,(German or Scandinavian).All drivers
Parental driver training not acceptable.Driver Education in schools.Training cost > $1000. Penalty for major traffic infringement : Repeat all training and resit test.

[MSTRS]

be nice if his comments were restricted to those occasions and yes those type of collisions we (riders) need to address. KM tends to down even when the biker has tried to avoid the collision and was perhaps mis-lead by the other vehicle, like a car that swings left then turns right as you go by.
Yes you learn to anticipate fools but fools are infinitely inventive so sometimes it would be nice if they got their ears slapped, like enforcing the when turning left move as far to the left as practical. If you need to swing right before making that left turn then you are either unless or both unless and going too fast.
Because there is no note to the contry and the rider didn't make it one is left to assume he was going too fast but what if it was a rock or loose gravel that caused them to cross the centre line? Now the rider has a part to play in that but if they had chosen their line at a safe speed and hit a gravel spill that they couldn't have seen? Do you take all bends at five k in case? A certain amount of what you do is dependant on others having done their part, like marking road works.

Yes, there can be any number of factors that lead to outcomes such as this one. Yet the one factor that is a constant on every single case is...someone was hanging onto the bars. THAT is the factor that can determine whether any of the others are relevant. Or not. Most of the time.

[Pixie]

And from a personal point a few weeks ago heading home a guy in an SS Commode(ore)went passed me at 130plus(I was doing 120ish)so I sat behind him (2 second rule etc)at speeds I was happy with,but the thing pissing me off was the times his car crossed the centre line on right hand bends,while I was well inside mine.Followed him for approx 130km on main highway and provision highway.



I once had nearly the same experience.Except it was from Matamata to the intersection of SH2,the speeds were up to 160 km/hr,the car I was following at a very discrete distance was a cop car with 4 cops on board and I was in a Commode station wagon and I still didn't cross the centre line on any of the bends (as a point of principle)

[Pixie]

Katman,you are like a stuck fucken record,Do you realise you don't actually contribute anything of value.

What is your problem with motorcycles?
Is it that you aspire to a higher social status and when the people you may mingle with find out you are associated with motorcyclists,they give you shit?
Well fuck off and join the Taupo Yacht Club or something and stop boring us.

[MSTRS]

Yes dear...

[Katman]

Katman,you are like a stuck fucken record,Do you realise you don't actually contribute anything of value.

What is your problem with motorcycles?
Is it that you aspire to a higher social status and when the people you may mingle with find out you are associated with motorcyclists,they give you shit?
Well fuck off and join the Taupo Yacht Club or something and stop boring us.

Sounds like I've struck a nerve.

Funny, I don't recall you telling me to shit the fuck up when we met face to face.

[Pixie]

Sounds like I've struck a nerve.

Funny, I don't recall you telling me to shit the fuck up when we met face to face.
I hadn't recently read a dozen repetitive posts from you at the time:violin:

[Katman]

I hadn't recently read a dozen repetitive posts from you at the time:violin:

Oh, I think you probably had.

[StoneY]

Money has always been available from ACC for safety initiatives.In fact the MSL is likely to eliminate this source of funding in the future.

No not at all, the existing fundings are set in place under other projects, they will never be reduced, or replaced by MSL projects.

That is something I CAN say as I asked that very question myself, and was happy with the amswer.

[bogan]

No not at all, the existing fundings are set in place under other projects, they will never be reduced, or replaced by MSL projects.

That is something I CAN say as I asked that very question myself, and was happy with the amswer.

I personally would feel a lot better about it, if we had it in writing (as part of the MSL operating rules etc) that NO project, existing or in future, would ever be passed over for funding and instead referred to the MSAC to be given MSL funds; unless of course the project comes from the MSAC.
Do you think it would be possible to get something to that effect?

[StoneY]

I personally would feel a lot better about it, if we had it in writing (as part of the MSL operating rules etc) that NO project, existing or in future, would ever be passed over for funding and instead referred to the MSAC to be given MSL funds; unless of course the project comes from the MSAC.
Do you think it would be possible to get something to that effect?

Its allready in the legislation for the MSL fund, ewhich is on the ACC website as far as I am aware.

The legislation clearly states, its not to be uused for anything that is already supported under current funding initiatives, also been clarified in other MSL threads on this very website several times
That has to be as good as 'in writing' its part of the laws protecting the use of the fund.

[bogan]

Its allready in the legislation for the MSL fund, ewhich is on the ACC website as far as I am aware.

The legislation clearly states, its not to be uused for anything that is already supported under current funding initiatives, also been clarified in other MSL threads on this very website several times
That has to be as good as 'in writing' its part of the laws protecting the use of the fund.

have you got a link to this? The ACC site is a fucking mess.

I did manage to find some Terms of Reference (http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acc.co.nz%2FPRD_EXT_CSMP%2Fid cplg%3FIdcService%3DGET_FILE%26dID%3D59233%26dDocN ame%3DWPC090717%26allowInterrupt%3D1&ei=HsiGTafSJ5D4swOYmcXlAQ&usg=AFQjCNGx3qkweqltiylqk17GDxNUX4dJUg), but they do not clearly state it.

[Smifffy]

have you got a link to this? The ACC site is a fucking mess.

I did manage to find some Terms of Reference (http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acc.co.nz%2FPRD_EXT_CSMP%2Fid cplg%3FIdcService%3DGET_FILE%26dID%3D59233%26dDocN ame%3DWPC090717%26allowInterrupt%3D1&ei=HsiGTafSJ5D4swOYmcXlAQ&usg=AFQjCNGx3qkweqltiylqk17GDxNUX4dJUg), but they do not clearly state it.

Yeah, I had found the terms of reference too, I had always thought that the NZ McSAC was modelled after the Victorian one. Comparing the terms of reference for the two organisations shows however that they are completely different animals.

Our one definitely reads like a puppet of ACC.

Also with the regard to no public statements, it only prohibits a member from either ACC or McSAC bringing the other into disrepute.

In fact part of their brief is 'engaging & communicating with the wider motorcycling community'

Fucking brilliant job they are doing of that too innit?

Oh and their meetings are quarterly, so no need for the chairman to actually be in the country or on the roads here any more than is strictly necessary.

I sincerely hope that the government is not expecting results similar to what the Vic group has achieved, since they have been stymied right from square one.

Interesting also that the group has a 3 year life and members are on for 2 years, but may be reappointed.

With a timeframe like that they shouldn't be mucking around.

A cynic might even suggest there will be 2 years of some dedicated people banging their heads against bureaucratic redtape for two years, then some more ministerial appointees will turn up to blow the budget as directed in the final year.

Use lube next time eh Nick?

[StoneY]

Yeah, I had found the terms of reference too, I had always thought that the NZ McSAC was modelled after the Victorian one. Comparing the terms of reference for the two organisations shows however that they are completely different animals.

Our one definitely reads like a puppet of ACC.

Also with the regard to no public statements, it only prohibits a member from either ACC or McSAC bringing the other into disrepute.

In fact part of their brief is 'engaging & communicating with the wider motorcycling community'

Fucking brilliant job they are doing of that too innit?

What do you call what I am doing here, and the fact every rep bar one is from Biker Representation groups? The Vic group have told us we are light years ahead of where they were at the same stage of progress


Oh and their meetings are quarterly, so no need for the chairman to actually be in the country or on the roads here any more than is strictly necessary.

I sincerely hope that the government is not expecting results similar to what the Vic group has achieved, since they have been stymied right from square one.

On the Victoria visit attended by many of the steering group, we were told that they are too top heavy with officials, and we in NZ were taking a far better approach, so be as cynical as you like, we only take from them what has been proven to work, and do our own thing here..OUR way


Interesting also that the group has a 3 year life and members are on for 2 years, but may be reappointed.

With a timeframe like that they shouldn't be mucking around.

We aint...and how many meetings do you think is needed? The meetings cost taxpayers money after all, NOT MSAC funds but the general ops budget.
We meet a lot more than the official meeting, I for one am meeting with ACC today myself to push a few points raised HERE on Kiwibiker with them, happy now???



A cynic might even suggest there will be 2 years of some dedicated people banging their heads against bureaucratic redtape for two years, then some more ministerial appointees will turn up to blow the budget as directed in the final year.

Use lube next time eh Nick?

You make so many assumtions in your post about the abilities and intentions of the council and its members...you are simply ignorant to make these assumptions and being a total dick.
I for one DO listen to whats being said here, and DO take it back to the rest of the council.
I dont see YOU making a difference for any other motorcyclists with your bullshit here on KB, just adding to the noise and confusion. WHat group are YOU part of Smiffy?
How much work have YOU done to try lower our road toll, or get Bikers recognised as legitimate road users?
Were you standing on the steps of Parliament with BRONZ, Ulysses, HOG, WIMA? Did you go to meet Nick Smith like Nasty and the other reps did?
Just another damn KB troll.........

There is a specific website coming, but is still under construction. Its going to be extremely functional but is another teams responsibility so I cant say anything more, as I have no more knowledge than what I just told you.

Theres nothing more to tell until its done, the council only just formed and started work, we have a long way to go yet before we can even assess real projects.........
I do have some stuff from Vic Roads we have been able to source, wondering if the PPT would attach to this thread.............

[StoneY]

have you got a link to this? The ACC site is a fucking mess.

I did manage to find some Terms of Reference (http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acc.co.nz%2FPRD_EXT_CSMP%2Fid cplg%3FIdcService%3DGET_FILE%26dID%3D59233%26dDocN ame%3DWPC090717%26allowInterrupt%3D1&ei=HsiGTafSJ5D4swOYmcXlAQ&usg=AFQjCNGx3qkweqltiylqk17GDxNUX4dJUg), but they do not clearly state it.

The terms of refference are a guideline for the councils operational functions, it is NOT the legislation behind the MSL
Hope that clarifies?
As I happen to trust you Bogan (you have always been a straight shooter) I am happy to PM you the email address that you can ask your specific questions to

[MSTRS]

The terms of refference are a guideline for the councils operational functions, it is NOT the legislation behind the MSL
Hope that clarifies?
As I happen to trust you Bogan (you have always been a straight shooter) I am happy to PM you the email address that you can ask your specific questions to

Stoney, it sounds like you/the panel will only allow questions from and give info to people that 'can be trusted not to misuse it' and you get to decide who it is that can be trusted.
Sorry, I mean no disrespect, but that is still BULLSHIT.
The panel (Mscac) NEEDS to make a public announcement of where they are at, who is doing what, and where they see themselves headed in terms of doing the job they were appointed for.
As for specific questions they may be willing to answer, then by all means allow individuals to pose them via that email addy. After all, the panel doesn't necessarily know what we want answers to, do they? But the answers should be given publicly.

[StoneY]

Once the website is up MSTRS you can all ask the questions you want to on there, it will have proper contact resources embedded.
Meantime, I just wont pass the email I was given to the trolls like Smiffy.

[MSTRS]

So why not wait until the website is up? If the panel is not prepared to be public about things, why would they consider answering individual 'privately'?
It just doesn't seem right, to me, that there's all this secrecy.

[bogan]

The terms of refference are a guideline for the councils operational functions, it is NOT the legislation behind the MSL
Hope that clarifies?
As I happen to trust you Bogan (you have always been a straight shooter) I am happy to PM you the email address that you can ask your specific questions to

Yeh I realised that, I just couldn't find the legislation with all the broken links etc. It's more of a general statement to all bikers I'm after, so I'll wait till the website is up and go from there.

[StoneY]

Yeh I realised that, I just couldn't find the legislation with all the broken links etc. It's more of a general statement to all bikers I'm after, so I'll wait till the website is up and go from there.

Thanks mate

I'm not hiding anything, I just dont have the authority to speak on official council business...I try to keep you all as informed as I can, result is an email address for the 'saner' contributers is available...no conspiracy.

Basically, if you read through these threads, the number of angry rants far outweighs the reasonable and considered questions and statements...no wonder the ACC and the Chair/Spokeperson ignore the KB threads... Smiffy is a perfect example of the 'why'

[cheshirecat]

May have already considered but there is an argument for reducing MC ACC levies as it would raise their income - we all know why. I believe but haven't verified that their MC income has been reduced since the increases and the Gov needs all the income it can get its scrawley mits on.

Might mean working out out they can save face on a U Turn but we could no doubt help them there as well.

[Smifffy]

Thanks mate

I'm not hiding anything, I just dont have the authority to speak on official council business...I try to keep you all as informed as I can, result is an email address for the 'saner' contributers is available...no conspiracy.

Basically, if you read through these threads, the number of angry rants far outweighs the reasonable and considered questions and statements...no wonder the ACC and the Chair/Spokeperson ignore the KB threads... Smiffy is a perfect example of the 'why'

Ok thanks.

Keep it personal, it's a nice touch.

[StoneY]

Ok thanks.

Keep it personal, it's a nice touch.

Read how your posts are written. Full of dribble and outright inflamatory bullshit.

Yep, its personal alright.

Whats your excuse for being an ignorant fool?

[riffer]

Whats your excuse for being an ignorant fool?


Maybe his high-viz vest is done up too tight and cutting off circulation? :blink:

[MSTRS]

Come on guys...in the absence of official communication, and the scarcity of verifiable factual information, people are going to speculate as to what is going on, and make up their own whys.

[Smifffy]

Read how your posts are written. Full of dribble and outright inflamatory bullshit.

Maybe inflammatory to politicians, millionaire businessmen and the AA, because they have all abused my trust before. Give me a direct quote where I have personally attacked either you or any member of the group outside of the three I've mentioned - and I make no secret of my distrust there.


For the record I think most members of the group are fully committed, but hamstrung. PROVE me wrong. In fact I've posted in support of the work you are doing before.


Yep, its personal alright.
Nice. Well played.


Whats your excuse for being an ignorant fool?


Yeah, I'm ignorant on this issue, so educate me, get the McSAC to answer my questions, instead of attacking my character. After all, education falls within the terms of reference doesn't it?

I have tried most avenues for seeking information, including emailing Mr Hipkins as suggested by Simon, and he told me to ask you.

That hasn't got me very far at all.

Think about this for a moment:

If you were not on the committee, weren't privy to the info that you are, but still represented bikers, and heard nothing but a press release, 6 months after the levy began and nothing more for 2 months afterward, what would you be asking?

Many readers of this thread are in a position to say to various riding mates things like "Yeah, you know this McSac has some really good ideas, and could actually help to make life safer for us bikers, we need to get in behind them"

or they could be all like

"ACC used fucked up statistics to gouge bikers for more bucks for the government to waste."

At the moment I'm committed to neither camp, because I'm looking for some info on which to base my decision.

Give me something to stand my flag in the first camp.

Good luck and ride safe.

[Katman]

At the moment I'm committed to neither camp, because I'm looking for some info on which to base my decision.


Give me something to stand my flag in the first camp.



I'll bake you a banana cake. :msn-wink:

[fossil]

Motorcycle Safety Body Starts its Journey
17:51 March 24, 2011 0 comments
Press Release – Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council

The inauguration of the Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council marks an exciting new development for New Zealand riders, Chairman Gareth Morgan said today.Motorcycle Safety Body Starts its Journey

Wellington, March 24, 2011

The inauguration of the Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council marks an exciting new development for New Zealand riders, Chairman Gareth Morgan said today.

The Council (MSAC) has been set up to implement initiatives in rider safety that would not otherwise happen through existing government agencies. It is funded by a $30 portion of the registration fee on every motorcycle, moped or scooter, known as the Motorcycle Safety Levy (MSL).

“What makes this so significant is that it is motorcyclists themselves directing the priorities,” said Morgan. “We as riders know plenty of ways in which the hazards we face can be reduced. And they are often simple, commonsense measures that get overlooked.”

MSAC is not a government agency but it has been set up with the assistance of ACC at the direction of its Minister, Dr. Nick Smith. Dr Morgan is keen to stress the independence of the new body, and its potential for innovative solutions. “We’re not beholden to ACC, the Police, Ministry of Transport or NZTA,” he says. “Instead, our job is to use the funds levied on riders’ registrations to direct things, we riders want to see.”

The inspiration for the MSL/MSAC initiative is a similar – and highly successful – scheme in Victoria. The Minister decided an equivalent was worth trying here. According to Dr Morgan, there’s a powerful case for it. “Far too many New Zealand riders are getting killed and injured on our roads,” he states. “ACC have a vested interest in this succeeding, of course. It will reduce their exposure to claims costs. But the motivation of the council is to save riders’ lives and prevent serious injury.”

Dr Morgan senses that the biggest potential is to harness the instinctive knowledge and experience of motorcyclists. “Bikers accept that riding is dangerous. But what we do not accept are things that make it unnecessarily dangerous. We can spot these things and we know what can make it safer while not interfering with the enjoyment of riding. These are things non-riders do not always understand.”

The new council consists of [eight] members, appointed by the Minister. All are motorcyclists and all have experience of driving public policy. In addition to Gareth Morgan as Chairman, Paul Searancke is Deputy Chairman, with Bill Grice, Brent Hutchison, David Crawford, Jess Corbett, Peter McIntosh and Yvonne Forrest as council members.

Having got under way, the MSAC is focused on getting action started. The council members will agree on a set of initial priorities and implement them. “The sooner we start getting things done, the sooner we start saving lives,” says Dr Morgan. “It’s as simple as that. Once we have the first initiatives going, we want to hear from other riders with sound ideas and plans.”

The new council will be setting up a website that will keep New Zealand motorcyclists informed of what is happening and ways to contribute to future plans. “This is for motorcyclists, funded by motorcyclists and directed by motorcyclists,” says Dr Morgan. “It’s an incredible opportunity and we intend to make the most of it.”

ENDS

Content Sourced from scoop.co.nz
Original url

[Str8 Jacket]

They spelt MCSAC wrong....

[Smifffy]

Interesting bit about not being beholden to ACC.

From the terms of reference:

2nd bullet point under Purpose:


Identify initiatives for MSL funding and make recommendations to ACC

Membership:

Members are appointed by the minister for ACC in consultation with its Roading partners.

2nd bullet point under Role:

Propose the funding of projects consistent with ACC's legislation (i.e be cost effective for the ACC Motor Vehicle Scheme and demonstrate a net cost reduction in motorcycle levies over time).

Constraints:


The council acknowledges that for ACC to agree and be able to implement its advice, all recommended initiatives to be funded from the MSL must be likely to result in a cost-effective reduction in actual or projected motorcycle levy rates (as per section 263(3) of the Accident Compensation Act 2001).

Reporting from the council to ACC

The Councils (sic) role is to make specific and detailed recommendations to ACC on which motorcycle safety initiatives should be funded from MSL funds. These recommendations should be made to ACC at least on an annual basis that coincides with the ACC annual budgeting cycle.
Report regularly should be provided (sic) on the Councils (sic) activities to ACC through the Chair. Agendas and Minutes of each meeting will be made available to ACC. Neither ACC nor the MSL Council will make any oral or written statement or comment to the media, which criticises the other party or which could adversely affect public opinion of either ACC or MSL Council or which brings the other party into disrepute.

Reporting from ACC to the Council

ACC will consider the Councils recommendations for motorcycle safety initiatives proposed to be funded from the MSL fund and then implement the approved initiatives.

It is ACC's role to implement and manage contracts for the implementation of MSL-funded initiatives, or delegate implementation to its roading partners as may be appropriate. ACC will report to the Council on performance of each initiative to support the Council's (yay for apostrophes) role in the overall monitoring of the MSL Programme. ACC will provide regular financial reporting regarding the transactions and any balance of the MSL fund.


Beholden (bɪˈhəʊld ə n)

— adj
indebted; obliged; under a moral obligation

I see nothing in the terms of reference to indicate anything other than that the Council is obligated to ACC.

Keep stressing that independence Gareth.

[oldrider]

Brings to mind the adage: He who pays the piper calls the tune! :facepalm:

[oneofsix]

Appointed by the minister for ACC, not ACC itself.
Reports to ACC
neither of these oblige them to ACC. A bit like a royal commission, as Justice Milne demonstrated, they can be appointed to the government, have terms of reference set by the government and report to the government but doesn't mean they are obliged to say what the government want

[Smifffy]

Despite the issues I have stated above, thank you to whoever it was on the council that managed to get this press release made.

Communication is important.

As an aside, does anyone know when the deadline is for submissions to ACC for inclusion in next year's budget?

[Smifffy]

Appointed by the minister for ACC, not ACC itself.
Reports to ACC
neither of these oblige them to ACC. A bit like a royal commission, as Justice Milne demonstrated, they can be appointed to the government, have terms of reference set by the government and report to the government but doesn't mean they are obliged to say what the government want

Correct, those just widen the context, but check out the constraints, and the role contained within the reporting to ACC section.

If ACC ain't convinced then it ain't gonna happen.

[oneofsix]

Correct, those just widen the context, but check out the constraints, and the role contained within the reporting to ACC section.

If ACC ain't convinced then it ain't gonna happen.

True and I agree its just blame shifting but I don't think we should shoot the advisary group because the Government or ACC don't follow their suggestions. I am willing to give them time and rope. Communication is going to be important so us motorcyclist can judge if the lack of progress (should that happen) is down to the MSAC or the channels they have to work through.
Somehow I don't believe Stoney will be able to keep his trap shut if he see good work by the MSAC going to waste

[Smifffy]

True and I agree its just blame shifting but I don't think we should shoot the advisary group because the Government or ACC don't follow their suggestions. I am willing to give them time and rope. Communication is going to be important so us motorcyclist can judge if the lack of progress (should that happen) is down to the MSAC or the channels they have to work through.
Somehow I don't believe Stoney will be able to keep his trap shut if he see good work by the MSAC going to waste

Exactly right, just don't stress independence from ACC, when clearly ACC and its minister are in control.

[riffer]

Smiffy, I gotta take you to task for calling the requirements for MSAC recommendations to lead to a reduction in costs for ACC.

Surely that's the whole point, given that we're talking safety recommendations?

Otherwise, why have an MSAC if their recommendations didn't result in less money for ACC to fork out for accidents?

And I'm pretty sure you can work out why they came out with a press release. Let's just say that Stoney hasn't been the only MSAC member too be feeling the love lately. :yes:

Good to finally see something. Although I must admit, speaking with my BRONZ Media Liaison hat on, I'm a little miffed that my communications to MSAC have gone completely unacknowledged. Surely a quick press release to scoop.co.nz isn't the only way to talk to bikers? I get the feeling that some people on MSAC don't want to directly engage with the primary stakeholders. Throwing out a press release could be argued as satisfying the terms of reference but in my book it just doesn't cut it.

I expect a lot more engagement once the website is up and running - it had better include a forum on it - although I do remember the farce that was the safer journeys one - you think mods on KB are tough.

[Smifffy]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your first sentence. What am I supposed to be taken to task for?


Smiffy, I gotta take you to task for calling the requirements for MSAC recommendations to lead to a reduction in costs for ACC.

Surely that's the whole point, given that we're talking safety recommendations?

Otherwise, why have an MSAC if their recommendations didn't result in less money for ACC to fork out for accidents?

And I'm pretty sure you can work out why they came out with a press release. Let's just say that Stoney hasn't been the only MSAC member too be feeling the love lately. :yes:

Good to finally see something. Although I must admit, speaking with my BRONZ Media Liaison hat on, I'm a little miffed that my communications to MSAC have gone completely unacknowledged. Surely a quick press release to scoop.co.nz isn't the only way to talk to bikers? I get the feeling that some people on MSAC don't want to directly engage with the primary stakeholders. Throwing out a press release could be argued as satisfying the terms of reference but in my book it just doesn't cut it.

I expect a lot more engagement once the website is up and running - it had better include a forum on it - although I do remember the farce that was the safer journeys one - you think mods on KB are tough.

[riffer]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your first sentence. What am I supposed to be taken to task for?

Calling a requirement to save money for ACC on crashes and recuperation a constraint to the MSAC.

[MSTRS]

The press release is something. Should we be grateful for it? Time will tell...

Anna Long (ACC) sent it direct to me in response to an email complaint I sent to her on the subject of the orchestrated silence

Let's hope she/they take on board such complaints, because, as I said to her - "No good will ever come from any group purporting to be 'representatives' who conduct themselves in secrecy and refuse to engage with those they represent, eh?"

[riffer]

You're doing all right then John. I didn't get one iota of a response from the buggers.

[MSTRS]

Yea - well it wasn't the MSAC guys that responded, was it?

[Smifffy]

Calling a requirement to save money for ACC on crashes and recuperation a constraint to the MSAC.

Oh I see, lol. You see 'constraint' isn't my word, it's the name of the section from the terms of reference that piece was quoted from. ACC call it a constraint, because that is the constraint that the minister, through ACC has placed on the Council.

I don't believe that it is accurate to "stress that the Council is independent from ACC"

I do wonder what could possibly lead the chair to make such an outlandish statement when it is patently untrue.

[riffer]

I do wonder what could possibly lead the chair to make such an outlandish statement when it is patently untrue.

Without trying too much to speculate I'd say it's quite possible that, given he's actually out of the country at the moment, someone is acting by proxy.

[avgas]

The press release is something. Should we be grateful for it?
Nope. I could have change the words "motorcyclists" to "bankers" and we would be talking the recovery package for the world financial crisis......

There was NOTHING in that article - which is pretty sad considering I have actually spent no time on this particular subject for 3 weeks.

If I pay for someone I expect them to bloody work. Draw up milestones, and release this information with the stakeholders.

Gareth is doing exactly what he did with Kiwisaver working groups......waste money and deliver 3/8th of fuck all.

I thought I would calm down after giving this a 3 week break.......but now I am fucken riled up again.

See you all in a month. Things better have bloody moved....

[Smifffy]

Levy increase: 1 July 2010

Council announced: 21 January 2011

Terms of reference (undated) released on ACC website

Ad Hominem press release: 24 March 2011


Have I missed anything out?

[Smifffy]

I've just read back over a few pages, and must apologise for having been such an ignorant fool. I truly could never have foreseen the spectacular successes this organisation was to make in such a short time.

Next time I'll be sure never to question the motives of the bureaucrats.

[avgas]

Thanks. Now I am shitty again.

[Smifffy]

Thanks. Now I am shitty again.

Text DUNG to 244 and the McSAC will sort that out for you.

[StoneY]

Text DUNG to 244 and the McSAC will sort that out for you.

Somehow I doubt that.
Of all the things they are doing, that's the biggest waste of money IMO.
As is looking at visi vests and shit.
Dare to suggest the rumble strips are as dangerous to a bike as shit on a corner is and whoa.......spanking time.
There is a govt group already dedicated to that work, and tens of thousands of dollars to set up a text service for shit on the roads is not what I would like to see my 90$ I put in to the fund spent on.
Its states clearly in the TOR that things that are already funded need not be paid for out of the MSL... so why did we pay for this text service? The Stock Effluent Working Group should have picked up that tab.

We need to implement the improvements the Aussies made to their road infrastructure and engineering policies, and no that's NOT make the roads straight..... its more about removing the avoidable obstacles at roadsides, better sign technology, or make the barriers more biker friendly with skid rails along the bottoms gaps of armco etc...
The best shit I saw before Morgam sacked me for using Kiwibiker was what the aussies have done in the way of barrier and sign post improvements (snap off posts, foldover roadmarker posts, high grip road markings)
Anyone who came to the Coro Loop event would have seen em for themselves....
OH but that's right we only gave you lot 6 days notice on a weekend a major bike rally was on as well!!

5 people showed up... good thing ACC provided food for 300 then aint it? Smoked mussels in a thai sauce at that, lots of high flying expensive shit and a catering team of 6.....and some real fancy stuff I don't even see at Logan Browns! Man that food was nice...pity it all went to the Auckland City Mission because no BIKERS showed up.

Its being run like a corporate business and that's just fuckin ridiculous.

Seems these opinions of mine grated on the Chair and his mate in the Beehive, they sacked me for speaking my mind and posting on Kiwibiker.
And they have the cheek to expect me to still let them use my picture on the safety fliers the coppers hand out... amazing!

Anyhow, off to a bike rally. Have fun everyone and...watch out for shit on the roads. After all... hefty chunk of your levy's is paying for a text service that is IMO ...... an epic FAIL!

[MSTRS]

So...the judgement that most of us reserved, is now in. And it is more-or-less exactly what we predicted.
Did we really expect any different?

[avgas]

So...the judgement that most of us reserved, is now in. And it is more-or-less exactly what we predicted.
Did we really expect any different?
I was hopeful on the fact they would have given up by now and we would all be $30+ richer p/a.
But then I remembered that certain people never give up on money and power.

[yungatart]

Somehow I doubt that.
Of all the things they are doing, that's the biggest waste of money IMO.....
...Anyhow, off to a bike rally. Have fun everyone and...watch out for shit on the roads. After all... hefty chunk of your levy's is paying for a text service that is IMO ...... an epic FAIL!

That is really sad. Whilst I hoped it would be different, I didn't really believe it would. I came out against the levy, I have never trusted political groups to look after and spend my money wisely. Sadly, there is little satisfaction in being proved right.

Oh well, might churn out a letter to an MP or 2 before I start my weekend....

[Smifffy]

Yeah, sorry the sarcasm font got broken with the latest forum software update.

I agree shit on the roads is the least of my worries, but it's what they are doing with the money and as I said a while back, despite being called an ignorant fool, I'd like to support them if possible.

Again the coro loop thing was:

Too short notice
Not what bikers wanted



I would have thought the organising committee would have at least been in contact with 1 organised bike group to ensure a turn out better than that.

Other than on KB, which as you said you weren't even allowed to use, where else was this ride advertised?

If I had known they were putting on thai mussels I would have been less interested. Better a mussel pie from maketu bro.

Bikers like pies.

I didn't trust McSAC then, and I don't trust them now. Where's our man from the AA these days?


Somehow I doubt that.
Of all the things they are doing, that's the biggest waste of money IMO.
As is looking at visi vests and shit.
Dare to suggest the rumble strips are as dangerous to a bike as shit on a corner is and whoa.......spanking time.
There is a govt group already dedicated to that work, and tens of thousands of dollars to set up a text service for shit on the roads is not what I would like to see my 90$ I put in to the fund spent on.
Its states clearly in the TOR that things that are already funded need not be paid for out of the MSL... so why did we pay for this text service? The Stock Effluent Working Group should have picked up that tab.

We need to implement the improvements the Aussies made to their road infrastructure and engineering policies, and no that's NOT make the roads straight..... its more about removing the avoidable obstacles at roadsides, better sign technology, or make the barriers more biker friendly with skid rails along the bottoms gaps of armco etc...
The best shit I saw before Morgam sacked me for using Kiwibiker was what the aussies have done in the way of barrier and sign post improvements (snap off posts, foldover roadmarker posts, high grip road markings)
Anyone who came to the Coro Loop event would have seen em for themselves....
OH but that's right we only gave you lot 6 days notice on a weekend a major bike rally was on as well!!

5 people showed up... good thing ACC provided food for 300 then aint it? Smoked mussels in a thai sauce at that, lots of high flying expensive shit and a catering team of 6.....and some real fancy stuff I don't even see at Logan Browns! Man that food was nice...pity it all went to the Auckland City Mission because no BIKERS showed up.

Its being run like a corporate business and that's just fuckin ridiculous.

Seems these opinions of mine grated on the Chair and his mate in the Beehive, they sacked me for speaking my mind and posting on Kiwibiker.
And they have the cheek to expect me to still let them use my picture on the safety fliers the coppers hand out... amazing!

Anyhow, off to a bike rally. Have fun everyone and...watch out for shit on the roads. After all... hefty chunk of your levy's is paying for a text service that is IMO ...... an epic FAIL!

[Flip]

I get a real sinking feeling about whole MsSAC.

Based on my previous experiences I have little to no respect for Morgan, I am however willing to give them as a group a go before I throw my toys out of the preverbial cot.

I wonder how long it will be before they advise we all have to wear high vis vests.

[Spearfish]

So...the judgement that most of us reserved, is now in. And it is more-or-less exactly what we predicted.
Did we really expect any different?

Probably not, but I had hope.

[dmc]

Guess they must be doing a stella job as it the first I've heard of them.

[Smifffy]

Guess they must be doing a stella job as it the first I've heard of them.

Yeah, they're fucking awesome!

[nosebleed]

...
Again the coro loop thing was:

Too short notice
Not what bikers wanted



...

IIRC it was also pissing down with rain (at least forecast to).

[Tunahunter]

You sure it's not just because you're a whinging unionist pom who's not happy unless he's trying to stir up shit?

If that were a Facebook entry I would post "LIKE"

[StoneY]

Yeah, sorry the sarcasm font got broken with the latest forum software update.

I agree shit on the roads is the least of my worries, but it's what they are doing with the money and as I said a while back, despite being called an ignorant fool, I'd like to support them if possible.

Again the coro loop thing was:

Too short notice
Not what bikers wanted



I would have thought the organising committee would have at least been in contact with 1 organised bike group to ensure a turn out better than that.


Bikers like pies.

Yep, they did alert all our groups, I spread the word to the North Island BRONZ branches, the others all told their groups too but FFS 6 days????? The reason for the 6 day notice was the Aussie engineers happened to be here ....... so save 2 air fares?
Well I would rather have paid another 2 return fares to/from Oz than see all that food that no one ate go cold.
Piss ups and pubs analogy springs to mind......... Guaranteed had I been asked to organise it I would have got several hundred there.... done it before after all. And it would have had a far longer lead time and not been on the weekend of the cold duck.


I didn't trust McSAC then, and I don't trust them now. Where's our man from the AA these days?

Believe it or not, he is the only one left in that group I trust...proven to have a very sane point of view and is usually more in tune with the opinions we would express here than anyone else on that group.
Also note, he manages to utilize Kiwibiker, and tells them he will not have his rights to use it curtailed.
Double standards.... YEP!

[oneofsix]

As discussed StoneY, they only invited you to join the group to shut you up. Now they get to say they had to kick you off because you were a loose cannon, well derr, a tightly controlled citizen doesn't organise protest rallies. Oh yeah and what did they want to do? organise a rally of bikers so they don't go to the one of their members with proven experience?? Sounds like NZ management to a tee. Oy Oy Oy or should that be Oink Oink Oink?

[BoristheBiter]

Somehow I doubt that.
Of all the things they are doing, that's the biggest waste of money IMO.
As is looking at visi vests and shit.
Dare to suggest the rumble strips are as dangerous to a bike as shit on a corner is and whoa.......spanking time.
There is a govt group already dedicated to that work, and tens of thousands of dollars to set up a text service for shit on the roads is not what I would like to see my 90$ I put in to the fund spent on.
Its states clearly in the TOR that things that are already funded need not be paid for out of the MSL... so why did we pay for this text service? The Stock Effluent Working Group should have picked up that tab.

We need to implement the improvements the Aussies made to their road infrastructure and engineering policies, and no that's NOT make the roads straight..... its more about removing the avoidable obstacles at roadsides, better sign technology, or make the barriers more biker friendly with skid rails along the bottoms gaps of armco etc...
The best shit I saw before Morgam sacked me for using Kiwibiker was what the aussies have done in the way of barrier and sign post improvements (snap off posts, foldover roadmarker posts, high grip road markings)
Anyone who came to the Coro Loop event would have seen em for themselves....
OH but that's right we only gave you lot 6 days notice on a weekend a major bike rally was on as well!!

5 people showed up... good thing ACC provided food for 300 then aint it? Smoked mussels in a thai sauce at that, lots of high flying expensive shit and a catering team of 6.....and some real fancy stuff I don't even see at Logan Browns! Man that food was nice...pity it all went to the Auckland City Mission because no BIKERS showed up.

Its being run like a corporate business and that's just fuckin ridiculous.

Seems these opinions of mine grated on the Chair and his mate in the Beehive, they sacked me for speaking my mind and posting on Kiwibiker.
And they have the cheek to expect me to still let them use my picture on the safety fliers the coppers hand out... amazing!

Anyhow, off to a bike rally. Have fun everyone and...watch out for shit on the roads. After all... hefty chunk of your levy's is paying for a text service that is IMO ...... an epic FAIL!

Well first let me apologize to you for calling you a few names, one of them being a yes man.

But it seems my other thoughts, that this was a waste of time and Morgan is a dick, has come to fruition.

I did think it was very naive of you to think it was going to be something other than a complete waste of time and money.

[avgas]

Yep to be honest with you Stoney. You were the only person I trusted in McSAC - purely because we have had out shit fight in the past and I found you to be pretty damn genuine.

I have had shit fights with Morgan for sometime. And found him to be a scumbag and a liar. His number one strength is giving people a false sense of security. His lies give him power over people.
Like I said before. Don't be surprised if he uses McSAC as a stepping stone for his political path.

[Pampera]

Text DUNG to 244 and the McSAC will sort that out for you.

I signed up with ACC website ages ago for e-mails advising progress with the MSAC and "Safety" levy. For nearly 18 months, nothing, leading me to the conclusion that - as I actually always expected - nothing of value would (or in fact could) be delivered with the money collected.

Apologies for being so slow, but I only just realised that the "DUNG" link went to the MSAC website and that such a thing existed. ACC and MSAC never sent me advice of this, despite being signed up for such! I eagerly reviewed the "Moto NZ"" site but after nearly 18 months of levy collection all I see is "we are gunna do this and gunna do that", plus a Coromandel and Green Line initiative which, reading here, have been failures.

Wow! They really have delivered nothing tangible (measurable), have no stated plan to deliver anything and don't even provide basic accounting information (levy collected, levy spent - on what, funds on hand and budget for the future).

I have had about $165 extorted from me so far, getting on towards paying for a decent pair of gloves (next year). This would have been something tangible I could have done with the money - had it been left for me to decide its use - keep my protective gear fresh and new. But all I get is a shiny website trying to cover the fact there is nothing of substance behind (and I will still have to pay to update my gloves!).

There is not much I can do but I will certainly exercise my duty to ask "my" politicians questions in the next three years. Nobody is listening now but perhaps the 2014 election will be more marginal and stimulate more interest on their part! Unless there is clear evidence in a year or two that this scheme is delivering more than it cost then there is really no political justification for its continued existence (unless the objective is just to penalise motorcyclists).

Michael

[Ocean1]

Unless there is clear evidence in a year or two that this scheme is delivering more than it cost then there is really no political justification for its continued existence (unless the objective is just to penalise motorcyclists).

Michael

News: No government spending is cost effective.

If any spending were to return benefits worth the original price or more then individuals would have spent the money themselves.

So, by inference any politician promising to spend more of your money on your behalf, or spend it more effectively is either:
a) taking money from a minority to buy a majority vote,
b) lying like a sausage in fat.



Or increasingly: c) Both.

[oneofsix]

Unless there is clear evidence in a year or two that this scheme is delivering more than it cost then there is really no political justification for its continued existence (unless the objective is just to penalise motorcyclists).

Michael

If it delivered anything other than failures I would be more comfortable with it. So far it has lived up to expectations. I expect it will soon be a victim of Government services cuts.

[avgas]

You have raised a good point.
No one would have complained about the $30 if it went towards a voucher to buy some actual safety equipment.
I wouldn't mind a $30 Qmoto voucher every year. Even if I was technically paying for it.
Hell even if you had full gear you could save em for something nice or put it on trademe.

[bogan]

You have raised a good point.
No one would have complained about the $30 if it went towards a voucher to buy some actual safety equipment.
I wouldn't mind a $30 Qmoto voucher every year. Even if I was technically paying for it.
Hell even if you had full gear you could save em for something nice or put it on trademe.

exactly, I'd be up to about 90 bucks by now, get a decent pair of gloves for that, which are the next on my list for upgrading as it turns out. But a free sausage sizzle in the coromandle on a wet day is just as good right? :confused:

Now I'm angry again, thanks avgas <_<

[bogan]

Just had another look at their site, Gareth has posted a bit regarding the Intersections and loss of control, no tangible options for me to own yet. Plenty of assurances they are/will do good things though <_<

To me it seems the biggest and easiest area for improvement, has to be from rider skill. Roads will always have a chance of being messy, other road users will always be arseholes. I want to spend my money on some training, new gear, and keep my bike in tip top condition (I would thoroughly recomend some EBC HH pads btw); however all these things are (rightfully so) outside MOTONZ's operating area as they are covered by ACC funded stuff already. So the assurances focus on the somewhat less effective option improving the environment for us, don't get me wrong, this is also something I would like to see done, but surely those causing the problems should fund their rectification?

I guess the argument is, we take your money and spend it on something less effective because you can't be trusted to spend it on the most effective option if we let you keep it.

[imdying]

I have had shit fights with Morgan for sometime. And found him to be a scumbag and a liar. His number one strength is giving people a false sense of security. His lies give him power over people. Gee man, you make him sound like some sort of super human. Stick a knife in his gut, he'll bleed out like any other.

[avgas]

Gee man, you make him sound like some sort of super human. Stick a knife in his gut, he'll bleed out like any other.
yeah.......but thats illegal......
By the way seen his latest return on YOUR kiwisaver? http://www.gmi.co.nz/kiwisaver/performance-returns.aspx

I make more money wanking to Internet porn.

[Smifffy]

yeah.......but thats illegal......

I make more money wanking to Internet porn.

Fuck! There's money to be made doing that?

:facepalm:

[blackdog]

From AMCN 25 Oct - 8 Nov Issue
" The Victorian Automobile Chamber of Commerce has called for the Motorcycle Safety levy to be scrapped.
The VACC addressed the Road Safety Committee (RSC) Parliamentary Inquiry into Motorcycle safety in Victoria, claiming the levy is an unfair impost on riders. The $63.80 charge is allocated for motorcycle safety projects on top of annual vehicle registration."

[yachtie10]

From

http://motoring.ninemsn.com.au/cars/news/7955580/victoria-to-introduce-tougher-motorcycle-licensing-system

This suggests following victoria may not be the answer as their stats are now worse (shocking i know)

[Usarka]

I make more money wanking to Internet porn.


Fuck! There's money to be made doing that?


Only until you get caught. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/143913-I-ve-been-naughty-... bahahaaaaa

[Bald Eagle]

From

http://motoring.ninemsn.com.au/cars/news/7955580/victoria-to-introduce-tougher-motorcycle-licensing-system

This suggests following victoria may not be the answer as their stats are now worse (shocking i know)

Seems like they use the same sort of dodgy stats nick the prick is so fond of raw number of motorcycle accidents without recognising that with increased numbers on the road the % involved in accidents is probably declining ( as it is in NZ ) more m/cycle = more m/cycle accident is a bit crude but nice for TPTB to use as a whipping point.

[avgas]

Fuck! There's money to be made doing that?

:facepalm:
Nope.
But its still a better return then most kiwi-savers (-4%) <_<
So say you earn 40K @ 4% = $1600 p/a * -4% = -$64 a year loss

Shit you could just keep the money under the mattress and buy a porno every couple of months and still end up better off.