Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council (Ex Motorcycle Safety Levy Establishment Group)

[NONONO]

I am aware that the Mods may move this thread into another, less well viewed board. However, I hope they do not. I would suggest it has relevance to all things motorcycling and should be seen by as many as possible...but that's just my opinion.

I would like to ask the members of the newly named Motorcycle Safety Advisory Group (the old MSL establishment group) on what mandate have they, as individuals, been appointed to this council?
Now that you will be paid a wage, or stipend, who do you represent?
If you have all been appointed (as is the case with Gareth Morgan supposedly) as individual citizens with expert knowledge of the issue, then I suppose you can, in good conscience, take the money as payment for services rendered to the government.
If, however, you have been appointed on the basis that you "Represent" certain motorcycle organizations (BRONZ, Ulysses, MNZ etc), then I would suggest that you have little right to your wages, which should belong to your respective, not for profit, organizations.
Do you intend to publish the amount you are being paid?
Do you intend to inform the public, how many votes (members) you represent individually?

[riffer]

If, however, you have been appointed on the basis that you "Represent" certain motorcycle organizations (BRONZ, Ulysses, MNZ etc), then I would suggest that you have little right to your wages, which should belong to your respective, not for profit, organizations.

This comment would have validity if members of those organisations were paid members, doing this for a job. As they are unpaid voluntary members of these organisations I suggest the payment is for their INDIVIDUAL services rendered. The individuals were chosen INDIVIDUALLY BY THE MINISTER because HE BELIEVED that they would do the best by motorcyclists, not because of any advocacy by the representative motorcycling groups. There is one odd one out, the member of AA, who was added after extensive lobbying by the Automobile Association.

However all members are there as individuals.

What's your point?


Do you intend to publish the amount you are being paid?

What does it matter to you? Look up in ACC's annual reports for what they pay consultants for meetings. This will give you an idea. It's not an unreasonable amount IMO.

Again, what's your point?



Do you intend to inform the public, how many votes (members) you represent individually?

Each member gets one vote. Look at each member's organisation's annual reports if you want to know how many members there are. However, as I have already indicated, given that each member is there not to represent their organisation but due to their individual abilities, it's neither here nor there.

I think you're trying to put a spin on things that really isn't there mate.

[NONONO]

Your loyalty to your friend is commendable Riffer, I have yet to post on this matter without your immediate response. However, I believe I asked the question to those who have been invited onto the Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council (latterly known as the Motorcycle Safety Levy Establishment Group), as far as I know, you are not one of this fortunate group.

I ask these questions because;

1. I make no secret of my opposition to the MSL, and the MSL EG and now the MSAC, and I would like to find out as much as I can about it's workings.

2. I am genuinely interested in the questions raised as they bring up constitutional and moral questions.

I believe your answers are tenuous at best, certainly opinion rather than fact.

I am suggesting no wrong doing, but believe the representatives of the various motorcycle bodies (if that IS how they were chosen to be on the committee) may be unwise take payment as "Representatives".
The rather strange assumption that they can be paid not as "Representatives" but as individuals, only holds true if they where not selected for the committee as a result of being a representative of a motorcycle organization.

[riffer]

I asked the question to those who have been invited onto the Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council (latterly known as the Motorcycle Safety Levy Establishment Group), as far as I know, you are not one of this fortunate group.


Yeah well, good luck mate. AFAIK, the only regular KB member of the MSAC is Brent, and he's either off riding his bike or spending time with his kids right now, so you're just going to have to be patient.

I can't see his answer being too different to mine though. They were selected as individuals who happen to be representatives of motorcycling organisations first, rather than as representing those organisations views. I certainly can talk for Brent here, as he had a long talk with members of BRONZ Wellington Executive (of which I am part of) before accepting the Minister's invitation, and according to the MSAC rules, is forbidden from taking part in ANY submissions which BRONZ may submit (at least at the BRONZ level).

I hope that helps a bit. AFAIK these rules apply to other MSAC members.

[Katman]

I ask these questions because.......



You sure it's not just because you're a whinging unionist pom who's not happy unless he's trying to stir up shit?

[NONONO]

You sure it's not just because you're a whinging unionist pom who's not happy unless he's trying to stir up shit?

Pretty sure, you ugly midget.

[Ratti]

My understanding is that only Morgan is being paid for his time. I am pretty sure none of the others are.

KB is probably not the best place to put this question forward as I think Brent is the only poster who is also on the panel. There is probably somewhere to write and request this information, dont know where you'd start looking tho.

Could possibly be others who are curious about the same question. Why dont you find out the information through the appropriate channel and post it here so those who are interested can read it.

[riffer]

My understanding is that only Morgan is being paid for his time. I am pretty sure none of the others are.

No. Old news Ratti. On Weds it was announced to MSAC members that they would be paid per meeting, on standard ACC rates. It's an ACC thing. You're not allowed to work for ACC for free apparently.

[riffer]

Pretty sure, you ugly midget.

Better watch it with the ugly midget stuff. Stoney's liable to smack you upside the head mate.

[Ratti]

No. Old news Ratti. On Weds it was announced to MSAC members that they would be paid per meeting, on standard ACC rates. It's an ACC thing. You're not allowed to work for ACC for free apparently.

OMG....:facepalm:

Then that information will be available and op can access it and let the rest of us know. Sweet!

[phill-k]

Brent has already posted on this in another thread, I'm tending to wonder about how this has been set up as well, Brent's been up front about his views and who he represents, but Morgan has never headed a motorcycle organisation his only contribution to the ACC argument was a comment on the TVNZ 7 channel about born again riders not being able to handle new bikes and being the cause of the big increase in ACC motorcycle costs, he seems to have been given a "job for the boys" position, wonder how he gets on knowing that his position and wealth all comes from his son, he was just a shitty arsed economist who pokes shit at those running kiwisaver schemes when his own scheme rates in the bottom 50%.

[NONONO]

Better watch it with the ugly midget stuff. Stoney's liable to smack you upside the head mate.
What he gets upset when someone tells Katman the truth does he?
And Riffer, the day I start worrying about threats of violence from you and your mates is the day I'll stop riding pal....

[StoneY]

Bah, load of crap

[Smifffy]

EM-Sack

lol

:innocent:

[Squiggles]

...

This gets old real quick :violin:

[riffer]

What he gets upset when someone tells Katman the truth does he?
And Riffer, the day I start worrying about threats of violence from you and your mates is the day I'll stop riding pal....

Some people have no sense of humour.

For those of you who don't know Brent, he's short and ginger-haired. Not a threat of violence, merely a joke.

FFS NONONO get a life.

[StoneY]

One last thing I wish to add and hopefully not breach the rules again (my other post I made when wasted with fatigue broke some comms rules)

Gareth has so far proven to be very wise as a chair
He has also been rather fair and has protected some of the people on it from thunderbolts from above - namely me!

I find him honest and a no shit kind of guy.
Far better option than MN anyway...............

God I hope THIS post dont get me sacked...because there is no guarantee anyone from BRONZ will ever get on this council - we are all individual appointees

[Bassmatt]

One last thing I wish to add and hopefully not breach the rules again (my other post I made when wasted with fatigue broke some comms rules)

Gareth has so far proven to be very wise as a chair
He has also been rather fair and has protected some of the people on it from thunderbolts from above - namely me!

I find him honest and a no shit kind of guy.
Far better option than MN anyway...............

God I hope THIS post dont get me sacked...because there is no guarantee anyone from BRONZ will ever get on this council - we are all individual appointees

I couldnt see too much wrong with anything in any of your posts about this. Are the big boys trying to keep secrets already?
So much for transparency huh?

[StoneY]

I couldnt see too much wrong with anything in any of your posts about this. Are the big boys trying to keep secrets already?
So much for transparency huh?

Well it was my sole idea to post what I did mate and in a haze of fatigue from a hard week, I ignored set protocols in regards to 'public press releases' and the post I made could have been seen as that due to the public nature of this forum.

I meant well, and none of what I posted is not available at request from ACC anyway but I stepped on a few toes by jumping the gun and thats what I did wrong

;)

[NONONO]

Some people have no sense of humour.

For those of you who don't know Brent, he's short and ginger-haired. Not a threat of violence, merely a joke.

FFS NONONO get a life.

Have a life Riffer.
Have had a life for the 35 years I've been riding a motorcycle.
1% and MCC, clubs and organisations.
Everything in between.
Still, eh?
You know best.

[Smifffy]

Well it was my sole idea to post what I did mate and in a haze of fatigue from a hard week, I ignored set protocols in regards to 'public press releases' and the post I made could have been seen as that due to the public nature of this forum.

I meant well, and none of what I posted is not available at request from ACC anyway but I stepped on a few toes by jumping the gun and thats what I did wrong

;)

So it is wrong to keep the people that you are meant to represent informed of what happens in these meetings?

I was going to ask if the minutes were going to be made available somewhere.

I can only hope that this is not going to be another one of those backroom deal-making affairs.

[Mom]

I couldnt see too much wrong with anything in any of your posts about this. Are the big boys trying to keep secrets already?
So much for transparency huh?

Apparently. Denial of an agreement to keep discussions "in Committee" have been denied over and over again, despite some really close sources being told something entirely different. I think StoneYs post shows us that there is infact a communication protocol that has to be maintained, the fact that StoneY admits to have being censured for a post on KB saying that Nick Smith wanted Mike Noon to head up the MSLC etc only confirms things that have been denied vehemently. Nothing is to be discussed with the interested payees of the levy. Us little plebs will slimply swallow all that is spouted, blindly like the ignorant BIKERS we are. Are you a member of MAG? You should be!


So it is wrong to keep the people that you are meant to represent informed of what happens in these meetings?

I was going to ask if the minutes were going to be made available somewhere.

I can only hope that this is not going to be another one of those backroom deal-making affairs.

Hope away little one. Sorry for insinuating your ignorance (I dont really mean it).

We should just blindy continue to lie down and accept the outrageous levy increases for there are a group of "MOTORCYCLISTS" looking after out interests :eek:

[Smifffy]

Apparently. Denial of an agreement to keep discussions "in Committee" have been denied over and over again, despite some really close sources being told something entirely different. I think StoneYs post shows us that there is infact a communication protocol that has to be maintained, the fact that StoneY admits to have being censured for a post on KB saying that Nick Smith wanted Mike Noon to head up the MSLC etc only confirms things that have been denied vehemently. Nothing is to be discussed with the interested payees of the levy. Us little plebs will slimply swallow all that is spouted, blindly like the ignorant BIKERS we are. Are you a member of MAG? You should be!



Hope away little one. Sorry for insinuating your ignorance (I dont really mean it).

We should just blindy continue to lie down and accept the outrageous levy increases for there are a group of "MOTORCYCLISTS" looking after out interests :eek:

It is after all why I used the word 'hope'. Hope is what you have when there is nothing else. I would have liked to said that I trusted or expected transparency, however that wouldn't be true.

All I have is hope, not even faith.

[Mom]

It is after all why I used the word 'hope'. Hope is what you have when there is nothing else. I would have liked to said that I trusted or expected transparency, however that wouldn't be true.

All I have is hope, not even faith.

Sad times when honesty is not the first policy. Some really close sources have been told something entirely different to what some on here have posted. That has been denied, strongly denied.

I think we can accept it as Gospel now. The members of the MSLC are bound by a confidentiality agreement not to discuss anything that is said in their meetings. Oh that it took so long.

[Smifffy]

Sad times when honesty is not the first policy. Some really close sources have been told something entirely different to what some on here have posted. That has been denied, strongly denied.

I think we can accept it as Gospel now. The members of the MSLC are bound by a confidentiality agreement not to discuss anything that is said in their meetings. Oh that it too so long.

I still have hope tho!!

:msn-wink:

[rustic101]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR-Y8JZiQEM

What an interesting video; containing some very strong words, with a very clear message - No!. Politics aye.

I am opposed too is the MSL. To date what I have stated on here is yet to be disproven, right down to them being paid. I've been busy over the past six days, not sure what the weeks ahead hold - It is my intention to lodge an OIA to the Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council, if a reply is furnished I'll post on KB.

[Smifffy]

Well the Govt has brought this into line, right down to the name - it is now known as the Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council.

That is in line with the other 'Advisory Councils'. I guess we can expect that they will do the same thing for motorcycle safety as the 'Alcoholic liquor advisory council' has done for alcohol abuse in the country in recent years.

Oh wait....

[Mom]

That is in line with the other 'Advisory Councils'. I guess we can expect that they will do the same thing for motorcycle safety as the 'Alcoholic liquor advisory council' has done for alcohol abuse in the country in recent years.

Oh wait....

I drink, wine, lots of it. How come I dont get a levy on my wine purchases to fund ALAC?

:doh: Should not give them ideas eh?

[Smifffy]

I drink, wine, lots of it. How come I dont get a levy on my wine purchases to fund ALAC?

:doh: Should not give them ideas eh?

Who really knows what taxes and levies there are on it?

[superman]

Keep talking to old fullas when they see me on my bike and they almost always seem to say, oh I just got a bike again after xx years. 1300 xxx xxxxxx

1300?!?! AFTER MORE THAN A DECADE?!

Guess they are more experienced than I so I shouldn't question it, straight to the top :niceone:

[Smifffy]

Keep talking to old fullas when they see me on my bike and they almost always seem to say, oh I just got a bike again after xx years. 1300 xxx xxxxxx

1300?!?! AFTER MORE THAN A DECADE?!

Guess they are more experienced than I so I shouldn't question it, straight to the top :niceone:

They possibly don't want to smoke the WRX/Skyline at the lights though...

More likely want to cart the mrs and a pile of her luggage round the island.

[superman]

They possibly don't want to smoke the WRX/Skyline at the lights though...

More likely want to cart the mrs and a pile of her luggage round the island.

And I most likely want to smoke WRX/Skyline because of my age?! :shit:

Guess I kynda do... :eek:

[Fatt Max]

I drink, wine, lots of it.

Dont I feckin' know it matey....:bleh:

[MSTRS]

They possibly don't want to smoke the WRX/Skyline at the lights though...



Don't need a 1300 for that...

My thoughts on the MSAC being paid are....

1. We knew this would be the case.

and

2. He who pays the piper, calls the tune.

I've said it before. Ministerial appointee or paid employee - makes no difference - they will do what the minister wants. Or they are out.

Whilst the idea of a motorcyclist-run safety council might be good, the reality is the whole thing is a crock, and with AA involvement it just got worse.

[MrKiwi]

I drink, wine, lots of it. How come I dont get a levy on my wine purchases to fund ALAC?

:doh: Should not give them ideas eh?

Wine and beer are outrageously taxed!

[StoneY]

Apparently. Denial of an agreement to keep discussions "in Committee" have been denied over and over again, despite some really close sources being told something entirely different. I think StoneYs post shows us that there is infact a communication protocol that has to be maintained, the fact that StoneY admits to have being censured for a post on KB saying that Nick Smith wanted Mike Noon to head up the MSLC etc only confirms things that have been denied vehemently. Nothing is to be discussed with the interested payees of the levy. Us little plebs will slimply swallow all that is spouted, blindly like the ignorant BIKERS we are.

We should just blindy continue to lie down and accept the outrageous levy increases for there are a group of "MOTORCYCLISTS" looking after out interests :eek:

And again you show your total ignorance of the situation with another rant based on suspicion and inuendo

Still suffering the sour grape tatse from not being invited to be on the council are we???

I have not been 'cnesured' I have been asked not to do another council members specific JOB, as I am NOT on the 'communications working group'
I am on the PROJECTS working group - also I was told to not speak of other councillors in this forum as it makes things difficult in the workings of the group - and thats a fair point.

If you want to see the minutes contact ACC and ask for them

Nothing in this is secret
Nothing in this is 'do what Nick says' and I for one am tired of the jealousy and foolish suspicion on these forums, especially from one such person who asked me for direct access to the MSL group, and I am sick of being nice about it to be honest

[Smifffy]

And again you show your total ignorance of the situation with another rant based on suspicion and inuendo

Still suffering the sour grape tatse from not being invited to be on the council are we???

I have not been 'cnesured' I have been asked not to do another council members specific JOB, as I am NOT on the 'communications working group'
I am on the PROJECTS working group - also I was told to not speak of other councillors in this forum as it makes things difficult in the workings of the group - and thats a fair point.

If you want to see the minutes contact ACC and ask for them

Nothing in this is secret
Nothing in this is 'do what Nick says' and I for one am tired of the jealousy and foolish suspicion on these forums, especially from one such person who asked me for direct access to the SML grou, and I am sick of being nice about it to be honest

Well, a search at ACC web site informs me that MSAC is in ACC acronymspeak the 'Medical Services Advisory Committee'.

Their own website further states that ACC's role in motorcycling is:


ACC’s role

ACC runs community-based motorcycle safety projects around the country. They are managed by local ACC staff and run in conjunction with other people and agencies that have a shared interest in increasing motorcycle safety.

Considering their own webpage doesn't even acknowledge the existence of this organisation, I don't hold much hope of the minutes being posted online.

TBH if what you posted steps on the toes of the communication committee member, then the communications committee member is doing a piss poor job, since yours is the only communication I've seen, and I've been on the lookout.

If I am wrong, and there is a wealth of information out there that has been communicated by the communications committee member, are you able to point me in the correct direction. 'Go ask ACC' is not a valid response to this question.

Thanks

[riffer]

Well, a search at ACC web site informs me that MSAC is in ACC acronymspeak the 'Medical Services Advisory Committee'.


Try the MCSAC. You might have more luck. Typos generally don't get great search results.

As for ACC not putting information up on site immediately for you, it's a big organisation, and the MCSAC is a small part of it, and has been in existence now officially for 5 days.

Perhaps you could exercise a little patience? Wheels of government don't turn especially fast in the first few days after a national emergency.

You might understand a bit more if you think of the Motorcycle Safety Advisory Committee as a further extension of VSAG:

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/about/who-and-what/working-with-others/vsag.html#march

I never heard any complaints about the NZ motorcycle industry's involvement with this project.

[MSTRS]

Stoney - you know I am, generally speaking, behind any initiative aimed at promoting motorcyclist's safety on our roads. Nor do I question your sincerity as part of the MSAC in these forums. You have been a tireless promoter of what the MSL could achieve, and you were gold at the Bikeoi. Anyone in your position deserves any kudos from what you've done.
But that also puts you in the firing line of those of our community that are tired of political lies, machinations and general bullshit. Few of us are naive enough to believe all we are told. Frankly, Nick the Prick has stolen a march on us all with the MSL and the Council to oversee it. We are all right where he wants us...still annoyed at the levy rise, more annoyed at the extra safety levy that no other motorist pays and taking it out on the Council, instead of him. Leaving him free to continue sharpening his knives over the rest of ACC.
As the 'face' and voice of that Council, you may be the undeserving target of 'our' frustrations, but think back to the feelings we all had 17/11/09...

[Big Dave]

Wheels of government don't turn especially fast in the first few days after a national emergency.

If they are anything like my wheels they have got fuck all done besides spending a lot of time reading the NZ Herald, KB and feeling surprisingly sad.

[riffer]

While you're at it, here's something else for you to whine about: The Motorcycle Safety Campaign Month has been abandoned in the wake of the earthquake:

Earthquake Puts Motorcycle Safety Campaign On Hold


The 100 Days motorcycle safety campaign that was scheduled to start on 1 March has been postponed as a result of the Christchurch earthquake.
The District-wide campaign is focussed on reducing motorcycle crashes. It has come about as a result of the high number of fatal and injury crashes in the Tasman Police District.
Tasman District Road Policing Manager Jenni Richardson said, with a large number of staff working out of the District there was a risk the campaign would be less effective, so the decision was made to delay it.
About 50 Tasman District Police are already in Christchurch helping with the rescue effort and more staff have been requested.
"Like the rest of New Zealand our thoughts are with the Canterbury community and we've had no shortage of staff volunteering to help in Christchurch.
"Those staff already there are working 12 hour shifts and do not have showers or running water. They have to take all of their own food and water for the duration of their deployment. It's certainly not pleasant, but everyone wants to do their bit."
Ms Richardson said there had also been a considerable increase in traffic coming into Tasman District as people evacuated from Christchurch.
"We need to ensure we are patrolling the roads and keeping those people safe as well."
The timing of the 100 Days campaign will be reviewed in coming weeks.

[riffer]

I wonder what TPTB will say if there's an increase in crashes in the Tasman District in the wake of news that there's going to be fuck all coppers there in the next month or two?

[StoneY]

ACC's website is not totally up to date matey, after all its less than a week since we met!
I said e-mail them or maybe ring them, I cant state any more on whats happening here as its not my specific duty to do so, and I wont tread on my colleagues toes again.

There is a group who have that task and the information is being coalated, and a specific web resource created...give it some time our firsd meeting was only last week!

Sorry I canot provide more, all I can say is the members of this council are on YOUR side, period. I have NO more to say

I am in a situation thats simply un winnable.
I am not the formal communications appointee so its outside my scope, and I can only ask you all to trust those appointed because they also are, like you, BIKERS first last and foremost.

In 6 months, when things have been happening, and funds have been spent, judge us then.

Im out of this thread now, had enough of the bullshit.
Sick of being called names, being accused of actions that exist only in the minds of the ignorant, and taking crap for doing my best to do whats right.

To those who 'get it' thanks for the support.
I guess we just leave the ignorant ranting fools to it and get on with our lives now

[Smifffy]

Try the MCSAC. You might have more luck. Typos generally don't get great search results.

As for ACC not putting information up on site immediately for you, it's a big organisation, and the MCSAC is a small part of it, and has been in existence now officially for 5 days.

Perhaps you could exercise a little patience? Wheels of government don't turn especially fast in the first few days after a national emergency.

You might understand a bit more if you think of the Motorcycle Safety Advisory Committee as a further extension of VSAG:

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/about/who-and-what/working-with-others/vsag.html#march

I never heard any complaints about the NZ motorcycle industry's involvement with this project.

Ok, thanks for that, went back and had another go.

Have no problem with it taking time to get info out. However when somebody who is in a position to shed a little light on the goings on does so, and then gets spoken to about it, I take issue.

Particularly when the given reason is that it is somebody else's job to communicate with the masses. WTF is their communication then? Sounds like a gagging order to me.

5 days - yeah right - when did they start collecting the levy?

We are told (not by the communications rep) that none of the levy money collected so far has been used in the setting up of this thing, so I think that if ACC is serious they could do a little more. Their motorcycle safety page was last updated in 2009 FFS.

I think (because I haven't been 'told') that there have been a couple of meetings already. Apparently a lot of good stuff has happened at these meetings.

"Trust us" they say. They don't even trust each other.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/I5m4jpUyb-g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[MSTRS]

Im out of this thread now, had enough of the bullshit.



Arnie would disagree...



To those who 'get it' thanks for the support.

You're welcome. I just try to see it from both sides, with a liberal dose of "We'll see" learned over a lot of years of being lied to and shat on by TPTB.

[riffer]

...give it some time our first meeting was only last week!


I think (because I haven't been 'told') that there have been a couple of meetings already.


You're really not listening are you Smiffy? :facepalm:

[phill-k]

Good on ya mate, many appreciate the efforts you are going to, to keep others in the loop, so thanks for your tolerance. From your post I'm assuming there will be a website set up where up to-date info is posted, be good if we could see announcements on here about that, I'm sure they will setup a mailing list anyway.



ACC's website is not totally up to date matey, after all its less than a week since we met!
I said e-mail them or maybe ring them, I cant state any more on whats happening here as its not my specific duty to do so, and I wont tread on my colleagues toes again.

There is a group who have that task and the information is being coalated, and a specific web resource created...give it some time our firsd meeting was only last week!

Sorry I canot provide more, all I can say is the members of this council are on YOUR side, period. I have NO more to say

I am in a situation thats simply un winnable.
I am not the formal communications appointee so its outside my scope, and I can only ask you all to trust those appointed because they also are, like you, BIKERS first last and foremost.

In 6 months, when things have been happening, and funds have been spent, judge us then.

Im out of this thread now, had enough of the bullshit.
Sick of being called names, being accused of actions that exist only in the minds of the ignorant, and taking crap for doing my best to do whats right.

To those who 'get it' thanks for the support.
I guess we just leave the ignorant ranting fools to it and get on with our lives now

[Smifffy]

You're really not listening are you Smiffy? :facepalm:

Well, I did want to. The message is becoming far to clouded, contradictory and confusing.

I thought they had a 1st up meeting/teleconference after it was all announced last month, when it was the MSL group, and then apparently they have just had another one, since becoming the MCsac.

I do have an interest in what is going on, and I'd like to be kept in the loop. I also thought that a newly formed organisation would be ideally placed to take advantage of the open/e-government concept that was actually set up a few years back. I guess I'm mistaken in that too.

Do I really need to email Nick or Hekia to find out who on the council I can contact for information?

Maybe it was a case of the earlier communique getting people's hopes up that something was finally starting to happen, and the quiet word came because we know how people can react when they then get disappointed?

I think this is the largest online motorcycling forum in NZ, it is certainly at the top of any motorcycle related web search for NZ specific pages on google. I think that makes it a great resource for communicating directly with those who will be affected by the decisions made.

So now rather than wanting to support it in any way I can, I'm more moved to say "That's great, get back to me when you have something to say."

[avgas]

My understanding is that only Morgan is being paid for his time.
Why does this not surprise me.
And you all called me stupid for not trusting this man.

Well let it be a fools errand to tell you I am still right.

[avgas]

MCsac
Are they hoping to get some balls this time? (sorry but it was too easy......and its a good one ;) )

[Vgygrwr]

I acknowlege mine is perhaps a boring academic view, so no need to say.
Firstly I am one of the "returning bikers", I can count a personally disappointing number of occasions where luck rather than skill has saved me. I also observe in groups a number with skill levels lower than mine riding much less conservative bikes. I therefore totally support all efforts to improve the chances, as I believe it also increases the enjoyment in the return to bikes, of my age group.
Secondly ALAC is funded by a levy on supply, collected by customs, $12.7 million being the level approved for 2010/2011. Published on their website.
Thirdly spent a bit of time on systems theory. Generally feedback is vital to system control. In large systems such as organisations of people it is far more effective/efficient to control feedback than to attempt direct contol, other than in clear emergency situations. I would be dissappointed if those in influential positions did not understand this. Some would use the term communication instead of feedback.
Finally I puzzle over the inclusion of "sick fo being called names" and "leave the ignorant ranting fools" within the same reply.

[Smifffy]

Why does this not surprise me.
And you all called me stupid for not trusting this man.

Well let it be a fools errand to tell you I am still right.

We did get told that all members will receive a payment now.

The payment apparently is an insult, and in no way covers their time or expenses in full. So we all feel better about that considering it was originally going to be totally unpaid, but that's against ACC rules. The payment comes from ACC budget, not the levy fund.

You should probably wait to be told that by the right person though.

[White trash]

Why does this not surprise me.
And you all called me stupid for not trusting this man.

Well let it be a fools errand to tell you I am still right.

I'm with ya mate. Not got a lot of time for the bloke, albeit for probably different reasons to yours.

[Mom]

And again you show your total ignorance of the situation with another rant based on suspicion and inuendo

Still suffering the sour grape tatse from not being invited to be on the council are we???

I have not been 'cnesured' I have been asked not to do another council members specific JOB, as I am NOT on the 'communications working group'
I am on the PROJECTS working group - also I was told to not speak of other councillors in this forum as it makes things difficult in the workings of the group - and thats a fair point.

If you want to see the minutes contact ACC and ask for them

Nothing in this is secret
Nothing in this is 'do what Nick says' and I for one am tired of the jealousy and foolish suspicion on these forums, especially from one such person who asked me for direct access to the MSL group, and I am sick of being nice about it to be honest

Raw nerve? Look everyone is entitled to change their minds eh. More info coming to light, more education and a different stance is taken. Dont get too wound up about, I certainly am not, and you never know you may well change your mind regarding the MSL levy and get in behind MAG and their mission to see it abolished. Just saying.

[MrKiwi]

And again you show your total ignorance of the situation with another rant based on suspicion and inuendo

Still suffering the sour grape tatse from not being invited to be on the council are we???

I have not been 'cnesured' I have been asked not to do another council members specific JOB, as I am NOT on the 'communications working group'
I am on the PROJECTS working group - also I was told to not speak of other councillors in this forum as it makes things difficult in the workings of the group - and thats a fair point.

If you want to see the minutes contact ACC and ask for them

Nothing in this is secret
Nothing in this is 'do what Nick says' and I for one am tired of the jealousy and foolish suspicion on these forums, especially from one such person who asked me for direct access to the MSL group, and I am sick of being nice about it to be honest

Thanks StoneY - I'm quite capable of speaking for myself and I will soon...

[MrKiwi]

While you're at it, here's something else for you to whine about: The Motorcycle Safety Campaign Month has been abandoned in the wake of the earthquake:

Earthquake Puts Motorcycle Safety Campaign On Hold


The 100 Days motorcycle safety campaign that was scheduled to start on 1 March has been postponed as a result of the Christchurch earthquake.
The District-wide campaign is focussed on reducing motorcycle crashes. It has come about as a result of the high number of fatal and injury crashes in the Tasman Police District.
Tasman District Road Policing Manager Jenni Richardson said, with a large number of staff working out of the District there was a risk the campaign would be less effective, so the decision was made to delay it.
About 50 Tasman District Police are already in Christchurch helping with the rescue effort and more staff have been requested.
"Like the rest of New Zealand our thoughts are with the Canterbury community and we've had no shortage of staff volunteering to help in Christchurch.
"Those staff already there are working 12 hour shifts and do not have showers or running water. They have to take all of their own food and water for the duration of their deployment. It's certainly not pleasant, but everyone wants to do their bit."
Ms Richardson said there had also been a considerable increase in traffic coming into Tasman District as people evacuated from Christchurch.
"We need to ensure we are patrolling the roads and keeping those people safe as well."
The timing of the 100 Days campaign will be reviewed in coming weeks.

This is unfortunate. Not happy to learn this.

[riffer]

This is unfortunate. Not happy to learn this.

Hardly surprising though. At the end of the day Police resources only stretch so far and the earthquake is going to swallow up a lot of them.

I've got my fingers crossed that Christchurch motorists are showing the way at the moment - there's a number of traffic lights out at intersections and people have had to go back to old-fashioned courtesy and common sense. Perhaps they might try that in Tasman in the absence of police on the roads.

Unfortunately I'm not that much of a naiive fool to ever think that for too long. Let's hope we don't hear about any head-ons on Takaka Hill or Rau Valley Racetrack.

[Katman]

Thanks StoneY - I'm quite capable of speaking for myself and I will soon...

Mr AA I presume?

[MrKiwi]

Mr AA I presume?

I am hardly Mr AA. I am not an employee of the AA and I am not on the AA's national council.

[MrKiwi]

Hardly surprising though. At the end of the day Police resources only stretch so far and the earthquake is going to swallow up a lot of them.

I've got my fingers crossed that Christchurch motorists are showing the way at the moment - there's a number of traffic lights out at intersections and people have had to go back to old-fashioned courtesy and common sense. Perhaps they might try that in Tasman in the absence of police on the roads.

Unfortunately I'm not that much of a naiive fool to ever think that for too long. Let's hope we don't hear about any head-ons on Takaka Hill or Rau Valley Racetrack.

Fair point.

[Smifffy]

Thanks StoneY - I'm quite capable of speaking for myself and I will soon...

We're on the edge of our seats. You could start with an introduction.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/forumdisplay.php/34-New-Member-Speak

Would be the polite thing to do.

[oneofsix]

Hardly surprising though. At the end of the day Police resources only stretch so far and the earthquake is going to swallow up a lot of them.
they were still on traffic duty on the Wellington urban motorway this evening, and I'm not referring to a camera van


I've got my fingers crossed that Christchurch motorists are showing the way at the moment - there's a number of traffic lights out at intersections and people have had to go back to old-fashioned courtesy and common sense. Perhaps they might try that in Tasman in the absence of police on the roads.

Unfortunately I'm not that much of a naiive fool to ever think that for too long. Let's hope we don't hear about any head-ons on Takaka Hill or Rau Valley Racetrack.
comments on TV, stuff and Herald have indicated this is working in Chch so far. Surprising in some ways as we have become so dependent on controlled intersections some of the younger drivers are initially thrown by having to revert to the right hand rule.

[Mom]

Mr AA I presume?

No, the AA are now going to speak in part via a ministerial appointed council on Motorcycle Safety. This group charged with administering the spend of a levy imposed on bikers as a result of skewed figures. Of course the AA are biker friendly and really concerned about our welfare on the roads.

There is no sacasm smiley for those that missed it.

[MrKiwi]

No, the AA are now going to speak in part via a ministerial appointed council on Motorcycle Safety. This group charged with administering the spend of a levy imposed on bikers as a result of skewed figures. Of course the AA are biker friendly and really concerned about our welfare on the roads.

There is no sacasm smiley for those that missed it.

We'll have to agree to disagree for the moment...

[Elysium]

"Politics" That's the only word that comes to mind after reading this thread.

[Smifffy]

We'll have to agree to disagree for the moment...

Lovely piece of transparency there.

I saw your earlier post. I really want to trust you now.

:niceone:

[Smifffy]

Mr AA I presume?

If I had to guess, I'd say Mr Ulysses.

Whatever, this is starting to look like the plot line from an episode of 'Yes Minister'.

Or maybe

'House of cards'

[riffer]

We'll have to agree to disagree for the moment...

Why am I reminded of the quote "diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy' while you search for a bigger stick"?

:jerry: I think I may just pull up a pew and watch how this one plays out.

Things just got interesting.

[Ocean1]

starting to look like the plot line from an episode of 'Yes Minister'.

Scariest thing about that documentary is that some people thought it was funny.

[MrKiwi]

If I had to guess, I'd say Mr Ulysses.

Whatever, this is starting to look like the plot line from an episode of 'Yes Minister'.

Or maybe

'House of cards'

No he was right, I am a member of the AA. While I am not an employee and I am not on the national council I am a Councilor of the Wellington District Council of the AA, we like to make up our own mind on issues...

[NONONO]

Someone has to tell me how the Automobile Association gets a seat at the table?
The organisation that said this;

The NZAA has previously voiced our opposition to the ongoing cross-subsidisation of motorcycle levies, which artificially covers the true cost of motorcycle accidents and sends the wrong signals to motorists by not warning new and existing motorcycle riders of their increased risk of injury (18 times more than drivers) through a price signal.
Consequently, we are pleased to see that the 2010/11 levy consultation document addresses this by proposing to increase motorcyclists’ contribution.

in it's submission in 2009.
What the fck are you doing here?

[bogan]

Someone has to tell me how the Automobile Association gets a seat at the table?
The organisation that said this;

The NZAA has previously voiced our opposition to the ongoing cross-subsidisation of motorcycle levies, which artificially covers the true cost of motorcycle accidents and sends the wrong signals to motorists by not warning new and existing motorcycle riders of their increased risk of injury (18 times more than drivers) through a price signal.
Consequently, we are pleased to see that the 2010/11 levy consultation document addresses this by proposing to increase motorcyclists’ contribution.

in it's submission in 2009.
What the fck are you doing here?

and while you are answering that one MrKiwi, can you also tell us whether you (and your district council) still believe the increased risk is actually 18x? I've already explained to Mike Noon it is far less, and can do the same for you if needed :msn-wink:

[MrKiwi]

and while you are answering that one MrKiwi, can you also tell us whether you (and your district council) still believe the increased risk is actually 18x? I've already explained to Mike Noon it is far less, and can do the same for you if needed :msn-wink:

I noticed that Kiwibiker forum is for all bikers so that is why I am here.

I'm on record when I was an official at the Ministry of Transport and subsequent to leaving and still as of recently and will for ever and a day reject the notion that motor biking is 18 times more dangerous. Yes we are more vulnerable if something goes wrong. The notion that it is dangerous irritates the hell out of me. It implies I and you and any one else shouldn't be riding a motorbike. That just aint gonna happen. We'll ride and we should do so without being unfairly penalised. But while we have the levy in place I’d to think we can heavily influence what it is used for.

As to the AA's position on the levy - yeah that was the tin top fraternity talking. It surprised the AA head office that there are at least 14000 of its members (and I think this is very conservative) that own motorbikes. It is my aim to ram that point home and get the AA more in tune with a wider set of road users. It might make me unpopular at times but I'm used to that.

You guys might not agree with me and what I am doing - sure that's your right to do so. I'll give as good as I get, I'm no shrinking violet.

I am where I am because of my experience and skills and I intend to continue to work to improve the lot of those of us who chose to ride motorbikes. I don't expect you all to agree with my methods. It is easy to sit on the corner and criticise, I'm getting off my butt to do something about it.

And at least I'm fronting up to read your views. Interesting and quite a varied bunch of views at that!

I hope to see some of you on your bikes on the road...

[MSTRS]

I noticed that Kiwibiker forum is for all bikers so that is why I am here....



And we appreciate you joining us.

However - don't be surprised if a fair number here don't believe you are genuine. See, we've had 'your sort' here before...

A little advice, if I may. Get out and meet other Welly KBers in meatspace. That way, you will be accepted for who you say you are.

[Big Dave]

And at least I'm fronting up to read your views. Interesting and quite a varied bunch of views at that!

I hope to see some of you on your bikes on the road...

Not many people appear to understand how change in large organisations comes from within.

Suggest attending an AA* meeting or joining a Political Party to try and get the numbers to affect or instigate that change and you are likely to get flamed as a collaborator.

Much easier to figuratively ride around and toot your horn.

Good luck to you.


* My name's David and I'm a bikeaholic

[NONONO]

I noticed that Kiwibiker forum is for all bikers so that is why I am here.

I'm on record when I was an official at the Ministry of Transport and subsequent to leaving and still as of recently and will for ever and a day reject the notion that motor biking is 18 times more dangerous. Yes we are more vulnerable if something goes wrong. The notion that it is dangerous irritates the hell out of me. It implies I and you and any one else shouldn't be riding a motorbike. That just aint gonna happen. We'll ride and we should do so without being unfairly penalised. But while we have the levy in place I’d to think we can heavily influence what it is used for.

As to the AA's position on the levy - yeah that was the tin top fraternity talking. It surprised the AA head office that there are at least 14000 of its members (and I think this is very conservative) that own motorbikes. It is my aim to ram that point home and get the AA more in tune with a wider set of road users. It might make me unpopular at times but I'm used to that.

You guys might not agree with me and what I am doing - sure that's your right to do so. I'll give as good as I get, I'm no shrinking violet.

I am where I am because of my experience and skills and I intend to continue to work to improve the lot of those of us who chose to ride motorbikes. I don't expect you all to agree with my methods. It is easy to sit on the corner and criticise, I'm getting off my butt to do something about it.

And at least I'm fronting up to read your views. Interesting and quite a varied bunch of views at that!

I hope to see some of you on your bikes on the road...

No it's not FAIR ENOUGH. That's the problem.
Maybe I have this completely wrong, if so I apologize.
Are you the AA ministerial appointee to the MSAC?

[Katman]

Are you the AA ministerial appointee to the MSAC?

I think we've established the fact that MrKiwi is the AA representative on the MCSAC panel.

[NONONO]

Which takes me back to the questions I posed at the start of this bloody thread.
Who is representing who? In what capacity? And should they be getting paid?

Seems MrKiwi is an AA REPRESENTATIVE on the MSAC (formerly the Motorcycle Safety Levy Establishment Group), yet he does not represent the AA official line????
Nobody seems to be REPRESENTING anyone, in any official organizational capacity.
StonY is NOT representing BRONZ, rather he is representative of what BRONZ thinks.
MrKiwi is not representing the AA, rather he is representative of what he believes the motorcycling members of the AA want.

Just like the mental gymnastics needed to oppose the levy hikes BUT support the MSL, it needs some amazing ability to be a representative without a mandate from, or responsibility to, those you presume to represent.

Kin head hurts

[Bassmatt]

Mr Kiwi, are you required to report on the meetings to anyone in the AA?

[riffer]

FFS dudes start listening.

There are a bunch of people on the MCSAC who have been hand-picked by the Minister of ACC, Nick Smith.

These people have been picked from various organisations because the Minister believed they represented a good cross-section of the New Zealand motorcycling publc.

Everyone is there on their own personal merits.

Not because they represent an organisation. But because of who the individual is.

Their organisations face double-scrutiny if they make a submission because of this.

THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY.

Capiche?

[Katman]

It would be nice to think that each member on the panel represents the views of their organisation. (Even nicer if all those organisation's views were aligned - it would certainly make for a very strong platform).

In reality though, the panel have been appointed to oversee the spending of funds set aside for motorcycle safety initiatives - they're not there to formulate government policy.

[nosebleed]

... It surprised the AA head office that there are at least 14000 of its members (and I think this is very conservative) that own motorbikes...

This may or may not have come about when pre-Bikoi the AA were making anti-motorcycling press releases, and members here were cancelling their AA memberships to demonstrate their disgust.

At the time the responses from the call-centre drones were apparently quite blase.
There's threads in here somewhere.

[Bassmatt]

FFS dudes start listening.

There are a bunch of people on the MCSAC who have been hand-picked by the Minister of ACC, Nick Smith.

These people have been picked from various organisations because the Minister believed they represented a good cross-section of the New Zealand motorcycling publc.

Everyone is there on their own personal merits.

Not because they represent an organisation. But because of who the individual is.

Their organisations face double-scrutiny if they make a submission because of this.

THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY.

Capiche?

So there are people on the council who are not part of any organisation?
I thought Mr Kiwi had been appointed after lobbying by AA?

[Katman]

Nick Smith must be laughing his arse off at the moment watching all this constant bickering.

A conspiracy theorist might almost imagine he'd planned it that way.

[riffer]

So there are people on the council who are not part of any organisation?
I thought Mr Kiwi had been appointed after lobbying by AA?

He appears to be the exception that proofs the rule. Do remember at the end of the day the Minister has the right to do what he bloody well likes. We gave him that prerogative when we elected his party to Government.

Shooting the messenger is never an effective way of controlling communication.

[MSTRS]

FFS dudes start listening.

There are a bunch of people on the MCSAC who have been hand-picked by the Minister of ACC, Nick Smith.

These people have been picked from various organisations because the Minister believed they represented a good cross-section of the New Zealand motorcycling publc.

Everyone is there on their own personal merits.

Not because they represent an organisation. But because of who the individual is.

Their organisations face double-scrutiny if they make a submission because of this.

THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY.

Capiche?

Sorry Riffer...perhaps they are there as motorcyclists, but it is because of their association with various organisations that they were in a position to be chosen. Otherwise, why aren't KM and myself on the panel? Or indeed Jim2? Etc.

[NONONO]

What Riffer is saying is that NO ONE is Representing ANY organisation. Only their own views, backed by their knowledge of the issues.
That nice, motorcycle friendly fking numbskull of a minister picked the council members himself.
FFS!
Their is NO conspiracy, however, there is CENSORSHIP.

[riffer]

Nick Smith must be laughing his arse off at the moment watching all this constant bickering.

A conspiracy theorist might almost imagine he'd planned it that way.

Indeed he does appear rather Machiavellian doesn't he? Just on the surface though. Deep down he's probably a right prick.

[riffer]

What Riffer is saying is that NO ONE is Representing ANY organisation. Only their own views, backed by their knowledge of the issues.
That nice, motorcycle friendly fking numbskull of a minister picked the council members himself.
FFS!
Their is NO conspiracy, however, there is CENSORSHIP.

Now you are finally getting it!

Exactly. And this is the Minister's right. As voted by the NZ public.

Democracy at work. An elected two-party dictatorship.

[nosebleed]

What Riffer is saying is that NO ONE is Representing ANY organisation. Only their own views, backed by their knowledge of the issues.
That nice, motorcycle friendly fking numbskull of a minister picked the council members himself.
FFS!
Their is NO conspiracy, however, there is CENSORSHIP.

Unless they were appointed as a result of direct lobbying by the AA. The ONLY organisation to have any influence here it seems.

[Ocean1]

Shooting the messenger is never an effective way of controlling communication.

Oh I dunno...

[Bassmatt]

We gave him that prerogative when we elected his party to Government.

Shooting the messenger is never an effective way of controlling communication.

Not me, and my idea of Democracy does not include giving elected officials carte blanche when elected.
My post about reporting to AA was a genuine question, they obviously put some effort into getting him appointed I doubt they are now going to just walk away and leave him to it. Wouldn't be much point in getting him on it then, would there?

[nosebleed]

He appears to be the exception that proofs the rule...

And there's the rub.

[NONONO]

Now your finally getting it! to quote another.

[riffer]

The problem herein then seems to be the old one.

Expectation vs reality.

You see, we expect that, because we live in a democracy that we should have some say in how Government works.

The reality, however, is that you don't have ANY say in what the Government wants.

If Nick Smith decides tomorrow that he is going to kick EVERY biker off the MCSAC and replace them with accountants, AA executives and Insurance industry people, then there is NOTHING you or I can do about it, except vote the Government out.

So how about, rather than bag the people who are on the Committee, you thank your lucky bloody stars that there are some passionate motorcyclists who have managed to actually get on this Committee, who may very well make some difference, DESPITE the contraints that this reprehensible bunch of dictators we call our elected representatives try and impose on them.

I wouldn't have the MCSAC's job for quids.

[Katman]

Why is everyone getting so anguished?

As I said before, all they're there for is to oversee the spending of a bit of money - nothing more, nothing less. I'm sure they'll handle the job fine.

If they were there to advise TPTB on how the future of motorcycling in New Zealand should be governed then there might be reason for us to be more interested in their credentials.

[Smifffy]

FFS dudes start listening.




Maybe when people start talking we can listen. MrKiwi even denied he was the AA rep when asked.

He then de3leted his own post and posted something more "politically correct".

Why can't people who claim to speak for us at least introduce themselves? The others on the committee have all been named in the press release from January.

Apparently people have been appointed to working groups, but we don't know what these working groups are or who is on them.

When one person that we have trust in came back and filled us in on a FEW benign details he got told to pull his head in, even though most of what he posted was his opinion.

Don't tell me to start listening until someone can come up with something to say other than "trust me".

[NONONO]

Don't remember bagging anyone on the committee.
Just the very existence of the committee.
I am not opposed to any individual, like you said, hard working, well meaning guys, trying to make a difference.
But the fact that this committee exists and is discussing bikers needs with Smith and his lying bunch of civil servants is a disgrace after what was done not so long ago.

[Bassmatt]

The problem herein then seems to be the old one.

Expectation vs reality.

You see, we expect that, because we live in a democracy that we should have some say in how Government works.

The reality, however, is that you don't have ANY say in what the Government wants.

If Nick Smith decides tomorrow that he is going to kick EVERY biker off the MCSAC and replace them with accountants, AA executives and Insurance industry people, then there is NOTHING you or I can do about it, except vote the Government out.

So how about, rather than bag the people who are on the Committee, you thank your lucky bloody stars that there are some passionate motorcyclists who have managed to actually get on this Committee, who may very well make some difference, DESPITE the contraints that this reprehensible bunch of dictators we call our elected representatives try and impose on them.

I wouldn't have the MCSAC's job for quids.

Not really democracy then is it?
I think you said it well " elected dictatorship".
However back on topic:
I havent bagged anyone....yet. Surely you can see how someone who is on an AA council and has been appointed after the minister being lobbied by the AA would be seen as an AA representitive.
No?

[Katman]

But the fact that this committee exists and is discussing bikers needs with Smith and his lying bunch of civil servants is a disgrace after what was done not so long ago.

Thankfully, many of us are able to see that the benefits that may come from spending a sum of money on making motorcycling safer (and therefore, more attractive to the masses) far outweigh your inability to move on.

[Bassmatt]

Why is everyone getting so anguished?

As I said before, all they're there for is to oversee the spending of a bit of money - nothing more, nothing less. I'm sure they'll handle the job fine.

If they were there to advise TPTB on how the future of motorcycling in New Zealand should be governed then there might be reason for us to be more interested in their credentials.

You think recommendations they make that suits Nicks/Acc agenda wont be implemented?
They are there so he can say " but the bikers wanted it, just ask the MSAC"

[Katman]

You think recommendations they make that suits Nicks/Acc agenda wont be implemented?
They are there so he can say " but the bikers wanted it, just ask the MSAC"

Once again........

They're there to spend some money - not formulate policy.

[NONONO]

Thankfully, many of us are able to see that the benefits that may come from spending a sum of money on making motorcycling safer (and therefore, more attractive to the masses) far outweigh your inability to move on.

Yep, can't wait to see those free Hi Vis vests and the car focused TV ads eh?
Oh, Oh...and the bumper stickers, an an.......
Pffffffffffffff

[Bassmatt]

Once again........

They're there to spend some money - not formulate policy.

At the moment, I wont be surprised to see it morph into policy advice, if they have the "right" sort of ideas.

[Bassmatt]

Can they also not spend money .ie ask ACC to stop wasting my money on bloody Hi Vis vests.

[Katman]

Yep, can't wait to see those free Hi Vis vests and the car focused TV ads eh?
Oh, Oh...and the bumper stickers, an an.......
Pffffffffffffff

Let's get this straight (I think I'm right here).........

This committee have not been appointed to advise whether Hi Vis vests should be made compulsory.

If Hi Vis vest are made compulsory it will not be the fault of this committee.

The committee may be asked if spending some of the money on handing out free vests is how they would like to see it spent.

(And for the record, I am vehemently opposed to making Hi Vis compulsory).

[riffer]

Displaying ignorance here.

Go and read what the MCSAC is for.

IT'S NOT FOR FUCKING HI-VIS VESTS.

[Katman]

(If, in fact, I'm wrong and the powers of this committee do extend to advising government on policy then no-one will be demanding credentials louder than me).

[NONONO]

Well..Katman and Riffer....
WHAT THE FCK IS IT FOR THEN?
As you both seem to have inside knowledge, tell us. Cos no one else is,.

[Bassmatt]

So the A in MSAC doesnt stand for advisory?
Motorcycle Safety Arse Council?
Motorcycle Spending And Cleaning?

[Katman]

Well..Katman and Riffer....
WHAT THE FCK IS IT FOR THEN?
As you both seem to have inside knowledge, tell us. Cos no one else is,.

I'm sure they'll let you know what the money will be spent on in due course.

[NONONO]

I'm sure they'll let you know what the money will be spent on in due course.

Pffffffffff.
You seem to know what it's NOT to be spent on, sure you won't tell us what it IS to be spent on?

[Katman]

Pffffffffff.
You seem to know what it's NOT to be spent on, sure you won't tell us what it IS to be spent on?

Hey, I'm not on the committee - I'm as much in the dark as you.

But I'm not the one pissing their panties over it.

[riffer]

New motorcycle safety initiative announced

Friday, 21 January 2011, 12:15 pm
Press Release: New Zealand Government Hon Dr Nick Smith
Minister for ACC
21 January 2011
Media Release
New motorcycle safety initiative announced
$2 million a year from ACC levies is to be invested in improved motorcycle safety initiatives from a newly formed Advisory Council led by Dr Gareth Morgan, ACC Minister Nick Smith announced today.
“This new initiative is about the Government working with motorcyclists to improve safety, save lives and reduce the costs of accidents,” Dr Smith said.

The Motorcycle Safety Levy Advisory Council members appointed are:
• Gareth Morgan, Chairperson
• Paul Searancke, Deputy Chairperson (Commissioner: Recreation/Leisure of Motorcycling New Zealand)
• Peter McIntosh (President Ulysses Club of NZ Inc)
• Yvonne Forrest (Representative of Women’s International Motorcycle Association)
• Bill Grice (former Chairman of the Motor Industry Association Motorcycle Division)
• Brent Hutchison (President of Wellington branch of Bikers Rights Organisation of NZ)
• Jess Corbett (Representative of Scoot NZ and the NZ Classic Scooter Club)
The Council, which has its inaugural meeting today with Dr Smith, is to be supported by Police, Ministry of Transport and ACC staff and funded from the $30 per year Motorcycle Safety Levy. All levy funds are dedicated to programmes and projects with administrative costs being met by ACC.
It follows the announcement by Transport Minister Steven Joyce in September last year that the Government is moving to tackle the growing issue of motorcycle and moped safety, including strengthening license tests.
“We need Government agencies and motorcycle organisations working together to reverse the ugly and deadly trend over the past decade in motorcycle accidents,” Dr Smith said.
Recent statistics include:
• 50 New Zealanders died in motorcycle accidents in 2010, up from 30 in 2000
• 66% increase in motorcycle road toll compares to 24% decrease in overall road toll since 2000
• Motorcyclists make up 3% of registered vehicles but 13% of fatalities
• ACC motorcycle claims have risen from 1072 in 2000 to 4110 in 2010
Year: 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010
Total Road Toll 462 455 405 461 435 405 393 421 366 385 374
Motorcycle Fatalities 30 34 30 28 35 38 39 41 51 48 50
“Motorcycling is an efficient means of transportation and a popular recreational pursuit but a fatality a week is unacceptable. Motorcyclists are going to need to be more safety conscious, but other road users and road designers are also going to have to change to reduce the motorcycle road toll,” Dr Smith said.
“This initiative is based on international best practise, particularly Victoria, Australia where motorcycle fatalities and serious injuries have reduced by 20% since 2002 when the state government there introduced a specific motorcycle safety levy programme and Council. If we could achieve likewise, it would save 10 motorcycle fatalities per year.
“I visited the Victoria programme last year with New Zealand motorcycle organisations and learned how investments in motorcycle training, road design improvements, signage and general road user education have made a real difference to safety.
“I want to acknowledge and thank the motorcycle clubs for their constructive engagement in getting the Council established. Dr Gareth Morgan brings strong economic and management expertise as well as a passion for recreational motorcycling and I thank him for taking on the role as Chair. The goal has to be to maximise the safety gains from this $2 million a year investment.”

[riffer]

I would suggest the bits to read out of that are:

motorcycle training, road design improvements, signage and general road user education

[Bassmatt]

"including strengthening license tests. "
Sounds like making policy to me.:bleh:

[NONONO]

Yep, seen that, says nothing.
But..anyone else think that the way it's written makes the appointees look like REPRESENTATIVES of their individual organisations?
But Riffer says not.
Will be finding out from the horses arse, I mean, horses mouth in my correspondence with the Minister for ACC.

[Bassmatt]

"“We need Government agencies and motorcycle organisations working together to reverse the ugly and deadly trend over the past decade in motorcycle accidents,” Dr Smith said."
Thought they were there as individuals, not representing organisations.
One bloody contradiction after another.

[oneofsix]

"including strengthening license tests. "
Sounds like making policy to me.:bleh:

yes the Transport Minister does get to make policy;

"It follows the announcement by Transport Minister Steven Joyce in September last year that the Government is moving to tackle the growing issue of motorcycle and moped safety, including strengthening license tests."

[Bassmatt]

yes the Transport Minister does get to make policy;

Friday, 21 January 2011, 12:15 pm
Press Release: New Zealand Government Hon Dr Nick Smith
Minister for ACC
21 January 2011
Media Release
New motorcycle safety initiative announced
$2 million a year from ACC levies is to be invested in improved motorcycle safety initiatives from a newly formed Advisory Council led by Dr Gareth Morgan, ACC Minister Nick Smith announced today.
“This new initiative is about the Government working with motorcyclists to improve safety, save lives and reduce the costs of accidents,” Dr Smith said.

Presumably with advice from the advisory council.

[oneofsix]

Presumably with advice from the advisory council.

I see some movement there. The council is no longer being making policy but giving advice. Have another read.

[MSTRS]

The MSL is a rort. We know that.
For all of you who are bagging them, the MSAC hasn't done anything (yet), so we can't know whether they are there for us, or stooges for Nick the Prick. Yet.
But the fact that only Stoney has spoken up (and been ticked off by his colleagues) hasn't seen them off to a promising start...

We just want to know that we're not being shafted. Again.

[oneofsix]

The MSL is a rort. We know that.
For all of you who are bagging them, the MSAC hasn't done anything (yet), so we can't know whether they are there for us, or stooges for Nick the Prick. Yet.
But the fact that only Stoney has spoken up (and been ticked off by his colleagues) hasn't seen them off to a promising start...

We just want to know that we're not being shafted. Again.

yes where is the comms committee?

[MrKiwi]

Maybe when people start talking we can listen. MrKiwi even denied he was the AA rep when asked.

He then de3leted his own post and posted something more "politically correct".

Why can't people who claim to speak for us at least introduce themselves? The others on the committee have all been named in the press release from January.

Apparently people have been appointed to working groups, but we don't know what these working groups are or who is on them.

When one person that we have trust in came back and filled us in on a FEW benign details he got told to pull his head in, even though most of what he posted was his opinion.

Don't tell me to start listening until someone can come up with something to say other than "trust me".

No I did not, I said I am not an employee of the AA and I am not on the national council, I then amended a post to be more concilitory than my original post which was a bit pointed.

I'm listening guys - and feel free to disagree (oops just continue to feel free to disagree not that you need anybody's approval, least of all mine, to do that). Just don't excpect me to agree with everything here or in the AA, or in the ACC or in anything else!

I don't have to read this stuff, but I am doing so because this is a very useful website to gage the breadth and diversity of views. I'm getting further educated.

I'm not going to comment on my appointment or the decisions of the Council, those will come out through formal channels. I'm happy to discuss views, politics and what the AA does and does not believe, even more happy to hear your views on what the AA could more of to be helpful towards bikers.

Cheers.

[Bassmatt]

I don't have to read this stuff, but I am doing so because this is a very useful website to gage the breadth and diversity of views. I'm getting further educated.



Cheers.

No you dont have to and good on you for doing so. I would like to think there is a large cross section of the biker community that uses this site.
I would encourage ALL members of the council to at least have a browse even here every now and again.

[MSTRS]

No I did not, I said I am not an employee of the AA and I am not on the national council, I then amended a post to be more concilitory than my original post which was a bit pointed.



But you are on the MSAC, you are a member of AA, you are on the Exec of Welly branch, and you are there at the behest of MN (presumably to give AA a voice on a MOTORCYCLE council)? Maybe, even, to take a motorcycle voice back to AA. Right?

[riffer]

But you are on the MSAC, you are a member of AA, you are on the Exec of Welly branch, and you are there at the behest of MN (presumably to give AA a voice on a MOTORCYCLE council)? Maybe, even, to take a motorcycle voice back to AA. Right?

I'd say that's probably an accurate assessment of the situation. This of course, does not mean that he is there simply as a puppet of Mike Noon et al. That conjecture is yet to be both proved, or disproved.

Only time will tell, unfortunately.

[yungatart]

What I'd like to know, is how the AA so easily and successfully can lobby the government and get what they want, but the rest of us have to take what we are given...ie a good shafting!

[NONONO]

No I did not, I said I am not an employee of the AA and I am not on the national council, I then amended a post to be more concilitory than my original post which was a bit pointed.

I'm listening guys - and feel free to disagree (oops just continue to feel free to disagree not that you need anybody's approval, least of all mine, to do that). Just don't excpect me to agree with everything here or in the AA, or in the ACC or in anything else!

I don't have to read this stuff, but I am doing so because this is a very useful website to gage the breadth and diversity of views. I'm getting further educated.

I'm not going to comment on my appointment or the decisions of the Council, those will come out through formal channels. I'm happy to discuss views, politics and what the AA does and does not believe, even more happy to hear your views on what the AA could more of to be helpful towards bikers.

Cheers.

Good that your listening.
Can you give me a straight answer?
Are you Representing the AA on the former Motorcycle Safety Levy Establishment Group, now known as MSAC, in an official capacity?
And as you are listening, and please don't take this personally.
Fck the levy hikes.
Fck the MSL
Fck the MSAC
Oh, and Fck the AA for being a part of the original and ongoing problem of discrimination, lies and theft that has lead to many having to give up motorcycling because it is no longer affordable.
Hope you take that back to the Welly Exec and Smith and Judge, because that's how a lot of us feel.

[Katman]

What I'd like to know, is how the AA so easily and successfully can lobby the government and get what they want, but the rest of us have to take what we are given...ie a good shafting!

Might have something to do with the number of motorcyclists who have snubbed their noses at society for so long.

It's only a matter of time before the patience of TPTB (and a large majority of the general public) runs out for those who see themselves as a law unto their own.

[bogan]

Might have something to do with the number of motorcyclists who have snubbed their noses at society for so long.

It's only a matter of time before the patience of TPTB (and a large majority of the general public) runs out for those who see themselves as a law unto their own.

Pity bikers can't just separate our 1%ers into a group like cagers do with boy-racers and dodge any collective blame that way. Or should I say, pity all the dumb fucks that judge us collectively can't see we are as diverse a group as any other road users.

[Fatt Max]

Pity bikers can't just separate our 1%ers into a group like cagers do with boy-racers and dodge any collective blame that way. Or should I say, pity all the dumb fucks that judge us collectively can't see we are as diverse a group as any other road users.

Well said mate, totally agree. It is simple discriminatory measures against motorcyclists.

The effectiveness of the MSAC is only one consideration. Lobbying, protest action, being a responsible road user etc are all othe actions that can be taken on a personal, regional and national level.

As I have said before, my romantic notion is that the community unites and works ALL the angles to get what we want and deserve. Bikering and negative exchanges only play nicely into to the hands of those who do wish us off the road.

In some ways, our biggest enemy is ourselves however from what I see, hear and read, the community has a diverse range of people, all of whom have amazing foresight, knowledge and downright guts.

Imagine what we could do if we harnessed all that..

But again, as I have been told so many times these last few weeks, what the fuck do I know......

[Katman]

Pity bikers can't just separate our 1%ers into a group like cagers do with boy-racers and dodge any collective blame that way. Or should I say, pity all the dumb fucks that judge us collectively can't see we are as diverse a group as any other road users.

It's not just the one 1%ers that you're thinking of.

I believe AA's view of motorcyclists has been formed from feedback from their members. Too many have beared witness to countless displays of stupidity and a total lack of consideration for any other road user.

[bogan]

It's not just the one 1%ers that you're thinking of.

I believe AA's view of motorcyclists has been formed from feedback from their members. Too many have beared witness to countless displays of stupidity and a total lack of consideration for any other road user.

So for arguments sake, say it's closer to 10% (i don't think it's that high), my point is still valid.

[Katman]

So for arguments sake, say it's closer to 10% (i don't think it's that high), my point is still valid.

The fact that it is wrong that the general public and TPTB should form their opinion of motorcyclists based on 10% (I believe it's higher than that) does not change the fact that that is exactly what happens.

[Mom]

As to the AA's position on the levy - yeah that was the tin top fraternity talking. It surprised the AA head office that there are at least 14000 of its members (and I think this is very conservative) that own motorbikes. It is my aim to ram that point home and get the AA more in tune with a wider set of road users. It might make me unpopular at times but I'm used to that.

So why then would Nick Smith want to head up a council set up to administer funds collected unfairly from motorcyclists, specifically targetting safety for bikers, with the head of an organisation that has told me in as many words, as long as it is good for the majority of road users (car drivers) that is all AA need to be concerned about.

I understand you can't talk for the minister, but appreciate the fact that there are a large number of us out here very, very unhappy with what is going on.

[bogan]

The fact that it is wrong that the general public and TPTB should form their opinion of motorcyclists based on 10% (I believe it's higher than that) does not change the fact that that is exactly what happens.

Thank you captain obvious :rolleyes:

So back to the McSAC, there's a bunch of people who's aim is to work out the best way to spend our money. I got no problem with that, those currently appointed will almost certainly do a better job than the other options, the problem I have is the establishment of this sets precedent for bikers paying for their own safety measures and campaigns. How long before funding applications that were previously approved from the ACC general fund have to go through the MSL accounts? how long until those accounts are unable to fund what was previously funded? how long before they raise the levy?

Perhaps people see their participation in the McSAC as an approval of the MSL. Maybe if those members on the group who are opposed to a motorcycle only safety levy say so openly, they will save themselves a lot of grief.

[Mom]

Displaying ignorance here.

Go and read what the MCSAC is for.

IT'S NOT FOR FUCKING HI-VIS VESTS.


I would suggest the bits to read out of that are:

motorcycle training, road design improvements, signage and general road user education

Please stop shouting.

[Katman]

how long before they raise the levy?


That is why I haven't gotten behind any of the motorcycling organisations to any great degree.

I believe they are all still barking up the wrong tree and refusing to acknowledge the base problem that has brought us to the brink we currently face.

All we're hearing is "it's not fair" and "you're picking on us".

I'm not hearing any motorcycling organisation saying "Oi, you lot, pull your fucking heads in and stop having accidents (and riding in the manner of an accident waiting to happen)".

I'm hearing it from individuals (even Ixion would say it often enough - but never with his BRONZ hat on) but it's not until we start hearing it from organisations that TPTB might start to take seriously the fact that some of us are trying to bring about a change.

[MrKiwi]

So why then would Nick Smith want to head up a council set up to administer funds collected unfairly from motorcyclists, specifically targetting safety for bikers, with the head of an organisation that has told me in as many words, as long as it is good for the majority of road users (car drivers) that is all AA need to be concerned about.

I understand you can't talk for the minister, but appreciate the fact that there are a large number of us out here very, very unhappy with what is going on.

It's easy to be unhappy with a lot of things...

[phill-k]

It's easy to be unhappy with a lot of things...

Mate and I say that loosely their is a lot of bullshit on KB but this is a serious thread about a subject that pisses a lot of us off, you have identified yourself as both a member of the group as well as the de facto AA man so please show us respect in this thread and answer the questions put or just remain silent, open a new thread if you want to indulge in a bit of bullshit but not here as you do the group you are on no service.

[Flip]

Fuck me reading through this I thought I was on PommyBiker.

[Smifffy]

It's easy to be unhappy with a lot of things...

Just remember that when you are trying to drum up support from bikers for some of the 'initiatives' you decide to drop the $$ on.

Of course you guys are appointed now, and bikers don't have to like it, as long as Nick does.

[Jantar]

..., I ignored set protocols in regards to 'public press releases' and the post I made could have been seen as that due to the public nature of this forum.

I meant well, and none of what I posted is not available at request from ACC anyway but I stepped on a few toes by jumping the gun and thats what I did wrong

;)
You didn't do anything wrong. If such protocols exist then that goes against the very essence of an open motorcycle safety policy. As soon as the idea that nothing can be said publicly without going through protocols then the whole scheme is rendered as being a coverup.

[Mom]

Apologies for revisiting some stuff, but I simply could not help myself really :devil2:


I hope THIS post dont get me sacked...because there is no guarantee anyone from BRONZ will ever get on this council - we are all individual appointees

Dont worry about it if you are sacked. You have told us time and time again that the people on the council are BIKERS and are for BIKERS. You of all people should be comfortable with NOT being on the council.




I think we can accept it as Gospel now. The members of the MSLC are bound by a confidentiality agreement not to discuss anything that is said in their meetings. Oh that it took so long.

I should have said oh that is has to come via official channels I guess.


Don't need a 1300 for that...

My thoughts on the MSAC being paid are....

1. We knew this would be the case.

and

2. He who pays the piper, calls the tune.

I've said it before. Ministerial appointee or paid employee - makes no difference - they will do what the minister wants. Or they are out.

Whilst the idea of a motorcyclist-run safety council might be good, the reality is the whole thing is a crock, and with AA involvement it just got worse.

Apparently it came as a HUGE shock they were going to be paid :yes:

And apparently they can say what they like outside of the council. The minister has accepted that they will not be stopped voicing opinion about the levies or anything else.


TBH if what you posted steps on the toes of the communication committee member, then the communications committee member is doing a piss poor job, since yours is the only communication I've seen, and I've been on the lookout.

If I am wrong, and there is a wealth of information out there that has been communicated by the communications committee member, are you able to point me in the correct direction. 'Go ask ACC' is not a valid response to this question.

Thanks

I am regisitered with them to get updates, I have had NONE. They are not allowed to talk about anything that is said in their meetings.


I am NOT on the 'communications working group'
I am on the PROJECTS working group - also I was told to not speak of other councillors in this forum as it makes things difficult in the workings of the group - and thats a fair point.

If you want to see the minutes contact ACC and ask for them

Nothing in this is secret


Nothing in this is 'do what Nick says' and I for one am tired of the jealousy and foolish suspicion on these forums, especially from one such person who asked me for direct access to the MSL group, and I am sick of being nice about it to be honest

So, Nothing in this is secret, Nothing in this is 'do what Nick says'.



ACC's website is not totally up to date matey, after all its less than a week since we met!

Yet you tell us to go there for up to date information.


I said e-mail them or maybe ring them, I cant state any more on whats happening here as its not my specific duty to do so, and I wont tread on my colleagues toes again.

So who is the communications guru of the counci?. Tell us so he can take the heat not you :yes:


Sorry I canot provide more, all I can say is the members of this council are on YOUR side, period. I have NO more to say

I am in a situation thats simply un winnable.
I am not the formal communications appointee so its outside my scope, and I can only ask you all to trust those appointed because they also are, like you, BIKERS first last and foremost.


So these people are on our side, and we simply HAVE to trust them. O-KAY got that, not sure if it will ever happen but...



I'm sure they will setup a mailing list anyway.

Yeah they will set it up for certain, or say they have.


I noticed that Kiwibiker forum is for all bikers so that is why I am here. *snuip* But while we have the levy in place I’d to think we can heavily influence what it is used for.

You mean to say, you were told to join up and make your presence known as a biker first and foremost, despite the fact that you are #2 choice for Nick Smith, as it was recognised that Mike Noon would have really brought the wrath of bikers to the lap of Government. Dont be so sure that your appointment wont do the same.




Which takes me back to the questions I posed at the start of this bloody thread.
Who is representing who? In what capacity? And should they be getting paid?
Kin head hurts

Despite the protestations to the contrary each and every one of them have an agenda mate. Dont be fooled. There are a few that genuinely believe they are doing this for the right reasons, there are others doing it to advance themselves along their chosen path. Some of them are in it for the long hours, and the piss poor pay, and the genuine desire to make things right for bikers in NZ, some of them are there so they can say they are, and some are there by defauly as the first choices were not acceptable/palatable.

Some of us did not come down in the last shower, and while we are accused of being ranting lunatics, we hold valid opinions. It inspires me to keep going when I am met with the kind of feed back this thread has engendered :D

[Smifffy]

You didn't do anything wrong. If such protocols exist then that goes against the very essence of an open motorcycle safety policy. As soon as the idea that nothing can be said publicly without going through protocols then the whole scheme is rendered as being a coverup.

Hear hear!!

+1

[NONONO]

It's easy to be unhappy with a lot of things...

Erm...Well.
Still no answer from Mr Kiwi, surely not John Keys Biker Nome De Plume?
I ask again, as I have asked time and again, and was the reason for this thread.
Do you represent The AA on the MSAC in an official capacity?

And Katman., why not troll some place else and let us ask the hard questions, rather than the limp dick nonsense? Midget.

[NONONO]

Given the level of confusion, slight of hand and attempts by certain Midgets to take this off topic, I had a word with a mate in legal circles.
She suggested I push this up to the Charities Commission and a Parliamentary Sub Committee as well, also suggested a couple of names from the Harald and the Dom....
Lets have a word shall we?
Still with us MrKiwi?

[NONONO]

MrKiwi?
Erm.....Hello?......MrKiwi?

[Mom]

MrKiwi?
Erm.....Hello?......MrKiwi?

He is off taking advice :yes:

No, got that wrong. He is off advising the communication committee that they need to formulate a response. No doubt we should get one next week. Afterall, the question has been asked tonight and they have to "consider" their response via their communications approved channel. Oh wait, it may take 2 weeks :waiting:

:waiting: seems to be MIA So I will settle for :sleep:

[Smifffy]

He is off taking advice :yes:

No, got that wrong. He is off advising the communication committee that they need to formulate a response. No doubt we should get one next week. Afterall, the question has been asked tonight and they have to "consider" their response via their communications approved channel. Oh wait, it may take 2 weeks :waiting

Was here earlier, wouldn't be surprised if he's back on his high horse and will patronise us no longer.

Shame to see the good work StoneY was doing get undermined by his 'colleagues'.

It doesn't matter much anyway because they will be successful, whatever they do. Much was made of the 2009 MC road toll, but I reckon that what statisticians call a blip, and it will drop again soon enough, but in the meantime we will have had a number of 'initiatives' rolled out.

The success of these initiatives will then be touted from the rooftops, and the initiatives will then become policy, since they were so successful.

Eventually Labour will get back in govt and decide that more of us need saving from ourselves and will double the levy and increase the budget by 50%.


Don't ask me where the remaining 50% would go - probably on trackdays for 1%ers in prison.

[riffer]

Eventually Labour will get back in govt and decide that more of us need saving from ourselves and will double the levy and increase the budget by 50%.


That's interesting. I take it you weren't at Parliament (like I was) when Phil Goff stated to all gathered that Labour would drop the levy back to where it was pre National Government.

And the ACC Spokesperson for Labour, Chris Hipkins, has made no effort to hide that his (and therefore Labour's) preference is for an additional levy on petrol, and NO ACC levy at all on relicensing.

Labour are proposing a $50 per annum relicensing fee.

But don't believe me. Ask Chris yourself. His facebook page is easy enough to find. And here's the official page (http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/MPP/MPs/MPs/8/d/3/49MP155641-Hipkins-Chris.htm)you can contact him on:

[Smifffy]

That's interesting. I take it you weren't at Parliament (like I was) when Phil Goff stated to all gathered that Labour would drop the levy back to where it was pre National Government.

And the ACC Spokesperson for Labour, Chris Hipkins, has made no effort to hide that his (and therefore Labour's) preference is for an additional levy on petrol, and NO ACC levy at all on relicensing.

Labour are proposing a $50 per annum relicensing fee.

But don't believe me. Ask Chris yourself. His facebook page is easy enough to find. And here's the official page (http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/MPP/MPs/MPs/8/d/3/49MP155641-Hipkins-Chris.htm)you can contact him on:

Believe what and whom you like.

My prediction has a modicum of tongue in cheek, however I haven't seen too many levies, taxes, charges reduced upon changes of govt, unless used as a vote bribe, and sometimes not even then.

[riffer]

Believe what and whom you like.

My prediction has a modicum of tongue in cheek, however I haven't seen too many levies, taxes, charges reduced upon changes of govt, unless used as a vote bribe, and sometimes not even then.

So contact him. Get the information in writing. Make it an election issue if you like. The only time we have ANY power is at election time.

[Mom]

Believe what and whom you like.

My prediction has a modicum of tongue in cheek, however I haven't seen too many levies, taxes, charges reduced upon changes of govt, unless used as a vote bribe, and sometimes not even then.

Phil Goff is on record saying he would reverse any decision that National makes re ACC levies on registration fees. He has probably forgotten about that though. Should I make contact and remind him? Rhetorical question really.

[Smifffy]

Phil Goff is on record saying he would reverse any decision that National makes re ACC levies on registration fees. He has probably forgotten about that though. Should I make contact and remind him? Rhetorical question really.

Despite being told repeatedly that i don't listen, I have listened, and have written to Hipkins.

I wonder if he will be able to find anything out, or whether it will result in even more of an information blackout than currently exists.

[Smifffy]

Phil Goff is on record saying he would reverse any decision that National makes re ACC levies on registration fees. He has probably forgotten about that though. Should I make contact and remind him? Rhetorical question really.

Given some of the things he has come out with lately (mondayising public hols, no GST on fruit & veg) I don't think Phill even remembers his 9 years in government, let alone anything else he may have said.

[blackdog]

Nick Smith must be laughing his arse off at the moment watching all this constant bickering.

A conspiracy theorist might almost imagine he'd planned it that way.
meh. it is what it is.


Why is everyone getting so anguished?


As I said before, all they're there for is to oversee the spending of a bit of money - nothing more, nothing less. I'm sure they'll handle the job fine.

If they were there to advise TPTB on how the future of motorcycling in New Zealand should be governed then there might be reason for us to be more interested in their credentials.

we like our bikes, and go off like firecrackers if we get an inkling we might be threatened with losing them




At the moment, I wont be surprised to see it morph into policy advice, if they have the "right" sort of ideas.

we live in hope. put your ideas on paper.


signage and general road user education

I don't have a gun big enough to enlarge the hole already created by that initiative.


Good that your listening.
Can you give me a straight answer?
Are you Representing the AA on the former Motorcycle Safety Levy Establishment Group, now known as MSAC, in an official capacity?
And as you are listening, and please don't take this personally.
Fck the levy hikes.
Fck the MSL
Fck the MSAC
Oh, and Fck the AA for being a part of the original and ongoing problem of discrimination, lies and theft that has lead to many having to give up motorcycling because it is no longer affordable.
Hope you take that back to the Welly Exec and Smith and Judge, because that's how a lot of us feel.

you should have mentioned hitler

meh


Pity bikers can't just separate our 1%ers into a group like cagers do with boy-racers and dodge any collective blame that way. Or should I say, pity all the dumb fucks that judge us collectively can't see we are as diverse a group as any other road users.


That is why I haven't gotten behind any of the motorcycling organisations to any great degree.

I believe they are all still barking up the wrong tree and refusing to acknowledge the base problem that has brought us to the brink we currently face.

All we're hearing is "it's not fair" and "you're picking on us".

I'm not hearing any motorcycling organisation saying "Oi, you lot, pull your fucking heads in and stop having accidents (and riding in the manner of an accident waiting to happen)".

I'm hearing it from individuals (even Ixion would say it often enough - but never with his BRONZ hat on) but it's not until we start hearing it from organisations that TPTB might start to take seriously the fact that some of us are trying to bring about a change.

yup

my dad still says "for things to change, first we must change"

take that any way ya like.


It's easy to be unhappy with a lot of things...

not your best work dude



Fuck me reading through this I thought I was on PommyBiker.

i didn't have bling left but this gets an honourable mention


Given some of the things he has come out with lately (mondayising public hols, no GST on fruit & veg) I don't think Phill even remembers his 9 years in government, let alone anything else he may have said.

i forgot what this thread was about. anyone seen the OP recently?

[NONONO]

Here you go....First post.

I would like to ask the members of the newly named Motorcycle Safety Advisory Group (the old MSL establishment group) on what mandate have they, as individuals, been appointed to this council?
Now that you will be paid a wage, or stipend, who do you represent?
If you have all been appointed (as is the case with Gareth Morgan supposedly) as individual citizens with expert knowledge of the issue, then I suppose you can, in good conscience, take the money as payment for services rendered to the government.
If, however, you have been appointed on the basis that you "Represent" certain motorcycle organizations (BRONZ, Ulysses, MNZ etc), then I would suggest that you have little right to your wages, which should belong to your respective, not for profit, organizations.
Do you intend to publish the amount you are being paid?
Do you intend to inform the public, how many votes (members) you represent individually?

And after, oh, bout 12 pages, this is what I know for sure.
......................!
These are my assumptions;
Some ARE official organisation representatives.
Some are individual appointees, who represent no one but themselves.
Some seem a mite unsure who they represent
Some have bikers best interests at heart, some are less than trustworthy.

From here;
I will write to each organisation asking if they have an official rep on this committee.

I will also ask (pending the answer to the above), if it is lawful under the organisations constitution, for representatives of their orgs to receive payments, as individuals, for services rendered to the government.

I'll write to Smith and ask if it is legal and/or constitutional for ACC to pay individual representatives of Not For Profit organisations, I will also take this up with The Charities Commission.

Will keep you posted.

[yungatart]

That's interesting. I take it you weren't at Parliament (like I was) when Phil Goff stated to all gathered that Labour would drop the levy back to where it was pre National Government.



He reiterated that at a lunch I attended as an invited guest along with a few other local riders.
He then came out some months later saying that should Labour get back in power they would NOT be changing motorcycle levies back to pre National days.

I was absolutely disgusted. It is one thing to lie to voters in parliament or on the campaign trail but he lied to my face! I can't abide dishonesty in any form.

How can you tell a politician is lying?...their lips move.

[phill-k]

Here you go....First post.

I would like to ask the members of the newly named Motorcycle Safety Advisory Group (the old MSL establishment group) on what mandate have they, as individuals, been appointed to this council?
Now that you will be paid a wage, or stipend, who do you represent?
If you have all been appointed (as is the case with Gareth Morgan supposedly) as individual citizens with expert knowledge of the issue, then I suppose you can, in good conscience, take the money as payment for services rendered to the government.
If, however, you have been appointed on the basis that you "Represent" certain motorcycle organizations (BRONZ, Ulysses, MNZ etc), then I would suggest that you have little right to your wages, which should belong to your respective, not for profit, organizations.
Do you intend to publish the amount you are being paid?
Do you intend to inform the public, how many votes (members) you represent individually?

And after, oh, bout 12 pages, this is what I know for sure.
......................!
These are my assumptions;
Some ARE official organisation representatives.
Some are individual appointees, who represent no one but themselves.
Some seem a mite unsure who they represent
Some have bikers best interests at heart, some are less than trustworthy.

From here;
I will write to each organisation asking if they have an official rep on this committee.

I will also ask (pending the answer to the above), if it is lawful under the organisations constitution, for representatives of their orgs to receive payments, as individuals, for services rendered to the government.

I'll write to Smith and ask if it is legal and/or constitutional for ACC to pay individual representatives of Not For Profit organisations, I will also take this up with The Charities Commission.

Will keep you posted.

Not sure why you are so focused on what remuneration these people are paid? , surely their mandate and outcomes are far more important. Along with communication to the masses.
Having someone come on here - Mr Kiwi - make some comments and then when comments & questioning shows others are intently interested buggers off should be of much greater concern.

[Fatt Max]

How can you tell a politician is lying?...their lips move.

I thought it was the mere fact they were breathing....

Yes, I was there when PG stated that ACC levies would be cut back etc etc etc. I also heard that he had subsequently stated that Labour wouldnt.

Fuck me, cant trust National, cant trust Labour...

Try these guys I reckon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH_MBwQhGgA

[MSTRS]

It's easy to be unhappy with a lot of things...

That little comment just about killed any support and rapport you were starting to build with us. This post (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/135145-Motorcycle-Safety-Advisory-Council-(Ex-Motorcycle-Safety-Levy-Establishment-Group)?p=1129999588#post1129999588) takes on a whole new meaning.
Remember this line?
However - don't be surprised if a fair number here don't believe you are genuine. See, we've had 'your sort' here before...

No wonder we are unhappy.
Set up with dodgy stats by ACC.
Shafted by Nick the Prick.
Shat on by Mike Noon.
Lied to by Phil Goff.
Treated with disdain by all but one of those who purport to represent us.

No wonder we are unhappy.
No fucking wonder.

[Eyegasm]

Fuck me reading through this I thought I was on PommyBiker.

+1, but it is good for a laugh first thing in the morning.


Still with us MrKiwi?

Posted 21:19


MrKiwi?
Erm.....Hello?......MrKiwi?

Then 21:52


He is off taking advice :yes:

No, got that wrong. He is off advising the communication committee that they need to formulate a response. No doubt we should get one next week. Afterall, the question has been asked tonight and they have to "consider" their response via their communications approved channel. Oh wait, it may take 2 weeks :waiting:

:waiting: seems to be MIA So I will settle for :sleep:

Hahahahahaaaaa....

Do you two expect that everyone will be on kiwibiker 24/7??

Honestly? 9pm at night? checking to see what someone is having a bitch about?
This is pure gold.

I'll come back tomorrow morning to see your responses as some of us have lives that exist outside of this website.

:corn:

[riffer]

He then came out some months later saying that should Labour get back in power they would NOT be changing motorcycle levies back to pre National days.


As much as I distrust politicians I'm surprised to hear this because as recently as two weeks ago I've heard different.

There's definitely nothing regarding a turnaround of policy on this on the Labour website (http://www.labour.org.nz/portfolios/acc).

Give me a few days - I'll work to get some information from the ACC spokesperson regarding clarification on this issue.

[bogan]

As much as I distrust politicians I'm surprised to hear this because as recently as two weeks ago I've heard different.

There's definitely nothing regarding a turnaround of policy on this on the Labour website (http://www.labour.org.nz/portfolios/acc).

Give me a few days - I'll work to get some information from the ACC spokesperson regarding clarification on this issue.

Yeh, unfortunately they do lie a lot. I guess the easiest way to estimate the accuracy, is whether they will get more good publicity that they can cash in for votes by saying they will do something, or actually doing it. From what I've seen labour is happy to put the boot in when citizens are angry at national, but I'd be very surprised to see them actually reverse nationals ACC levy policies, maybe they will put a halt to, or reverse the privatisation bit though.

But if you can get an iron clad promise out of them, that'd be great, would certainly election time a bit more interesting!

[StoneY]

MrKiwi?
Erm.....Hello?......MrKiwi?


He is off taking advice :yes:

No, got that wrong. He is off advising the communication committee that they need to formulate a response. No doubt we should get one next week. Afterall, the question has been asked tonight and they have to "consider" their response via their communications approved channel. Oh wait, it may take 2 weeks :waiting:

:waiting: seems to be MIA So I will settle for :sleep:

No actually he has a JOB......... like some of the rest of us, and KB is a trap he has had fair warning about now.

Speculate all you like, until you meet the man in person, try not to be so freaking judgmetal

I am having coffee with him tomorrow.
The guy tries to give you all a bit of an idea who he is, where he stands, and as usual the ignorant and misinformed make it very hard for the very simple truth to show through the clouds of inuendo and suspicion

[Smifffy]

+1, but it is good for a laugh first thing in the morning.



Posted 21:19



Then 21:52



Hahahahahaaaaa....

Do you two expect that everyone will be on kiwibiker 24/7??

Honestly? 9pm at night? checking to see what someone is having a bitch about?
This is pure gold.

I'll come back tomorrow morning to see your responses as some of us have lives that exist outside of this website.

:corn:

Actually during the intervening time his name was shown at the bottom as viewing this thread. Perhaps he went off and left his browser on the page so he would know where he was in the morning?

Perhaps he was consulting?

[StoneY]

Actually during the intervening time his name was shown at the bottom as viewing this thread. Perhaps he went off and left his browser on the page so he would know where he was in the morning?

Perhaps he was consulting?

Read post above.

You lot need to get laid................. there is life outside Kiwibiker after all.

[Big Dave]

Read post above.

You lot need to get laid................. there is life outside Kiwibiker after all.

And the 'issues' are a whole lot different.

[Smifffy]

No actually he has a JOB......... like some of the rest of us, and KB is a trap he has had fair warning about now.

Speculate all you like, until you meet the man in person, try not to be so freaking judgmetal

I am having coffee with him tomorrow.
The guy tries to give you all a bit of an idea who he is, where he stands, and as usual the ignorant and misinformed make it very hard for the very simple truth to show through the clouds of inuendo and suspicion

A bit of an idea who he is?

Don't make me laugh; he hasn't even introduced himself, has had everybody guessing, answered the best guess evasively and has gone back and changed posts "to be more conciliatory" (politically correct to the rest of us).

The innuendo all started with him. All he has told us is that everybody, including the AA is against him. From this performance it's not difficult to see why.

Is it any wonder people are suspicious?

I have a job too, and I would also like to see motorcycle safety improved in a clear and cohesive manner.

I might trust him when he puts something on the table and follows it through. Until then he is just another shadowy ministerial appointed bureaucrat.

[Smifffy]

A bit of an idea who he is?

Don't make me laugh; he hasn't even introduced himself, has had everybody guessing, answered the best guess evasively and has gone back and changed posts "to be more conciliatory" (politically correct to the rest of us).

The innuendo all started with him. All he has told us is that everybody, including the AA is against him. From this performance it's not difficult to see why.

Is it any wonder people are suspicious?

I have a job too, and I would also like to see motorcycle safety improved in a clear and cohesive manner.

I might trust him when he puts something on the table and follows it through. Until then he is just another shadowy ministerial appointed bureaucrat.

For the record, I thought StoneY did a pretty good job of putting things on the table, but that was rapidly undermined by somebody 'having a word'.

Still nothing from the Communications working group then?

[MrKiwi]

I'm still here although very busy, haven't read all the comments and won't until later in the week.

I've a few other things I am unhappy about that I need to focus on for a few days and then I hope to hop on my bike and ride it for a few days. I'll be back.

[MrKiwi]

should read I'll be back to answer some questions...

[Smifffy]

I'm still here although very busy, haven't read all the comments and won't until later in the week.

I've a few other things I am unhappy about that I need to focus on for a few days and then I hope to hop on my bike and ride it for a few days. I'll be back.

Ride safe.

[MSTRS]

should read I'll be back to answer some questions...

It's really simple....

Tell us the truth.
Nothing more. Nothing less.

[Smifffy]

It's really simple....

Tell us the truth.
Nothing more. Nothing less.

That would breach the communication protocol, citizen Winston Smith, 6079.

[riffer]

That would breach the communication protocol, citizen Winston Smith, 6079.


<img src=http://www.samcamp.com/uploaded_images/tinfoil-793677.jpg>

[avgas]

Nick Smith must be laughing his arse off at the moment watching all this constant bickering.
A conspiracy theorist might almost imagine he'd planned it that way.
An appointed committee, with a almost blank cheque book, and an investment chairperson.

Who needs conspiracy? Reality is scary enough.

I have to admit that McSAC is a cute name to call something that has us all by the balls.

[Maha]

I have to admit that McSAC is a cute name to call something that has us all by the balls.



I read that as Mick Sack...:niceone:

[MSTRS]

Funny - cos there's one or two scrotes on it, as well...not to mention the one who put them there.

[Fatt Max]

I have to admit that McSAC is a cute name to call something that has us all by the balls.

McSAC.......someone mention a burger.....what would be in a McSAC....oh yeah, balls......as you were

[Maha]

McSAC.......someone mention a burger.....what would be in a McSAC....oh yeah, balls......as you were

McSAC combo to go?
Explains the Tag below...AA can lick my balls.

[avgas]

McSAC combo to go?
Explains the Tag below...AA can lick my balls.
haha I just had a look at them. didn't even realize.

[riffer]

Guys. I've been informed by those who know better than I.

We don't acronomise the "Cycle".

It's just MSAC.

Sorry for putting y'all wrong. :rolleyes:

At least it wasn't the Bikers ACC Levy Largess Safety Advisory Committee eh?

[Fatt Max]

At least it wasn't the Bikers ACC Levy Largess Safety Advisory Committee eh?

Now that WOULD have cost you a bollocking mate.......:bleh:

I'll shut up now....

[bogan]

Guys. I've been informed by those who know better than I.

We don't acronomise the "Cycle".

It's just MSAC.

Sorry for putting y'all wrong. :rolleyes:

At least it wasn't the Bikers ACC Levy Largess Safety Advisory Committee eh?

Think the McDamage may already be done though :chase:

[Fatt Max]

Think the McDamage may already be done though :chase:

Nah, reckon that comment is small fry compared to the bigger picture :rolleyes:

[bogan]

Nah, reckon that comment is small fry compared to the bigger picture :rolleyes:

yeh good point, this thread is mostly waffle and a (mc)flurry of confusion :msn-wink:

[blackdog]

How can you tell a politician is lying?...their lips move.

and if they are on the level, drool comes from both corners of their mouth.

[Smifffy]

Guys. I've been informed by those who know better than I.

We don't acronomise the "Cycle".

It's just MSAC.

Sorry for putting y'all wrong. :rolleyes:

At least it wasn't the Bikers ACC Levy Largess Safety Advisory Committee eh?

So then a search of the ACC site for MSAC is likely to return more hits for "Medical Services Advisory Council" then?

ACC turkeys really have no clue do they?

:facepalm:

[riffer]

So then a search of the ACC site for MSAC is likely to return more hits for "Medical Services Advisory Council" then?

ACC turkeys really have no clue do they?

:facepalm:

I'm sorry to say you are correct on both counts.

[Berries]

Guys. I've been informed by those who know better than I.
Good to see the BallSac Communications Department is up and running then.

[Smifffy]

So the Accident Compensation Corporation 2011/12 Levy Consultation Information for motorcyclists

Which is available here http://www.acc.co.nz/PRD_EXT_CSMP/groups/external_levies/documents/papers_plans/wpc088982.pdf

finishes up with


About the motorcycle safety levy
The licence fee levies that motorcycle and moped owners pay include a $30 annual ‘motorcycle safety levy’, which is held in a separate fund and can only be used to improve motorcycle safety.
We’ve established a special group, made up of government and motorcycling group representatives, to advise us on how to spend the levy to improve safety for all motorcycle and moped riders. For more information, visit www.acc.co.nz/motorcyclists

Following www.acc.co.nz/motorcyclists, we find

Page not found

We’re sorry; the ACC website has been restructured. The page you are looking for may have been moved or taken off the site.
Find the information you need

Try one of the following to find the information you require:

* go to the ACC homepage and use the navigation bars
* use the site search or advanced search
* try one of the following sections:
etc



:facepalm: - again

[Bald Eagle]

What did you expect, information :facepalm: :blank:

[riffer]

Amazing eh?

It's been a whole week since this MSAC kicked off.

You'd think the world would have changed by now...

Wow. It's as if they had a life or something.

[Smifffy]

Amazing eh?

It's been a whole week since this MSAC kicked off.

You'd think the world would have changed by now...

Wow. It's as if they had a life or something.

Pity they didn't muck around like this when it came to collecting the levy...

Why would they post up broken links? How hard is that? How many 404s do you find on this site?

I'd rather that the link from the pdf pointed to a placeholder page that simply had the Jan 21 press release on it, rather than a 404 - even a cheesy under construction gif would be better.

BTW I am willing to be guided by your expertise in the timeframe arrangements of such matters and have a simple question:

How long do you think it would be reasonable and appropriate to wait for a reply from MP Hipkins regarding my recent queries, bearing in mind that he is surely extremely busy after recent events?

I'm thinking a couple of weeks to maybe a month is that fair?

I don't mean for a fob off answer either.

[Smifffy]

Amazing eh?

It's been a whole week since this MSAC kicked off.

You'd think the world would have changed by now...

Wow. It's as if they had a life or something.

StoneY had time to give us an update, I think he has a life too. I think motorcycling is a great big part of his life. It's a pity the other appointees, or as the ACC claims representatives of motorcycling groups aren't similarly enthusiastic.

[MSTRS]

The answer is obvious....
There's nothing at the end of that link, because 'they' have nothing they want to tell us.

[ynot slow]

The answer is obvious....
There's nothing at the end of that link, because 'they' have nothing they want to tell us.

Same as companies new to the web,you goto their site and get "website under constuction",for me it means I will not return to buy,maybe the powers that be at ACC think similar to me on that,i.e put up 404's and we'll go away forever.

[Smifffy]

Response received from Mr Hipkins:


Hi W

I'm not aware of any commitments that we've made regarding the
Motorcycle Safety Levy. We're currently working on our manifesto for the
coming election and I'm sure we will give a clear indication of how we
see this and other issues affecting motor cycle owners being addressed.

With regard to the MSAC, I've been keeping in regular contact with Brent
Hutchison, who is the BRONZ representative on the committee. I was also
a bit concerned about the late addition of the AA representative. I'd
suggest that if you want more info on what that group is up to, perhaps
you might like to get in touch with Brent?

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: xxx
Sent: Tuesday, 1 March 2011 11:01 p.m.
To: Chris Hipkins
Subject: ACC Motorcycle Levy & MC safety advisory council

Kia Ora Mr Hipkins,

I am writing to you as an avid motorcyclist to enquire about your
party's policy regarding the recently introduced Motorcycle Safety Levy.

I have been told that you made a promise to return the levy to the level
that it was set prior to the National party led government taking
office. Is this correct?

Furthermore I would like to know if you are aware of the activities of
the recently established Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council, chaired by
Mr Gareth Morgan?

I understand that since the establishment and announcement of the
council, ministerial intervention has resulted in the addition of a
representative of the AA, an Automobile lobby group, to the council. Is
this correct?

In the interests of open and transparent governance, are you able to
advise interested motorcyclists where they may be able to obtain
information, and meeting minutes etc pertaining to the activities of
this group?

I have had some contact with some people that claim to be members of
this group via an online motorcycling forum, however they tell me that
they are unable to provide any information on the groups activities as
this would be a breach of communication protocol.

Whilst I believe that motorcycle safety is an issue of national
importance, I don't think that it is a risk to national security.

I would very much appreciate any information that you could obtain for
me regarding this, particularly since the 'communications working group'
of this council are proving to be so uncommunicative. All we have seen
since the levies began to be collected is one press release and
accompanying photo op from the Minister.

Sincerely

:doh:

[Katman]

Interesting that he singularly ignored the question regarding the return of the levy rate to pre-National days.

Speaks volumes.

[Smifffy]

Interesting that he singularly ignored the question regarding the return of the levy rate to pre-National days.

Speaks volumes.

He didn't ignore it - he said that he was aware of any commitments being made, but it will be up for consideration in their manifesto. IOW don't hold your breath, and if you were on the steps of parliament when the alleged promise was allegedly made then you must have misheard. Maybe perhaps somebody mis-spoke (thanks GWB).

[bogan]

He didn't ignore it - he said that he was aware of any commitments being made, but it will be up for consideration in their manifesto. IOW don't hold your breath, and if you were on the steps of parliament when the alleged promise was allegedly made then you must have misheard. Maybe perhaps somebody mis-spoke (thanks GWB).

yeh a while ago we tried to find a youtube clip of when the promise was made, but no luck unfortunately.

[Katman]

I'm not aware of any commitments that we've made regarding the
Motorcycle Safety Levy. We're currently working on our manifesto for the
coming election and I'm sure we will give a clear indication of how we
see this and other issues affecting motor cycle owners being addressed.

He very carefully phrased his response to only mention the Motorcycle Safety Levy - not the overall levy increase.

Labour ain't gonna do jack shit for motorcyclists.

[Smifffy]

yeh a while ago we tried to find a youtube clip of when the promise was made, but no luck unfortunately.

What promise?

:facepalm:

[bogan]

What promise?

:facepalm:

slippery motherfuckers eh! They should be recorded 100% of the time when acting in an offical capacity, and all recordings archived and available online.

[Katman]

It would suggest that the whole 'Riders are Voters' campaign is nothing more than pissing into the wind.

Until the motorcycling organisations recognise the fact that the only way forward for Motorcycling is to address the way that motorcyclists portray motorcycling to the general public, we will continue to see all manner of shit fall upon us.

[Mom]

What promise?
:facepalm:

I was there, as were several hundred bikers on the steps of the Auckland War Memorial Museum and witnessed Phill Goff saying he would reverse the levy. Plenty of cameras there, someone will still have footage, of that I am certain :yes: Officially stuff may have been removed from web access, but I have no doubt it still exists also :yes:

Ignoring the troll for a moment, Phill Goff called me Annie in front of a huge number of people, I still take shit as a result of that, good natured shit I might add. He knew my name, we had talked personally prior to his attendance at our protest, his office staff knew my name, all correspondance was in my name, but he still called me Annie. Hmmmmm. Obviously I was not important enough for him to attempt to remember my name.

Thinking he will recall it really well, soon enough :sunny:


He will say what ever it takes to get a positive spin. He wants to be elected next time around. He will have to try a lot harder to gain support :yes:

[Katman]

Ignoring the troll for a moment,

There's nothing trolling about my comments Anne.

It's been sad to watch MAG-NZ and BRONZ attempting to score points against each other.

I think it's time both realised that Motorcycling should be bigger than both of them put together.

[Mom]

I think it's time both realised that Motorcycling should be bigger than both of them put together.

I agree with you. Hard to get it happening though, try as I might.

And you do so troll :yes:

Dont even attempt to deny it :sunny:

[Katman]

And you do so troll :yes:


Trolling suggests a degree of frivolity.

Believe me Anne, I'm deadly serious.

[Mom]

I'm deadly serious.

You and me both.

[Fatt Max]

He knew my name, we had talked personally prior to his attendance at our protest, his office staff knew my name, all correspondance was in my name, but he still called me Annie. Hmmmmm. Obviously I was not important enough for him to attempt to remember my name.

Thats nothing, he called me Sandra........

MInd you, were were in a hotel room.....

[StoneY]

There's nothing trolling about my comments Anne.

It's been sad to watch MAG-NZ and BRONZ attempting to score points against each other.

I think it's time both realised that Motorcycling should be bigger than both of them put together.

Geez mate I aint been trying to score any points, I just stick to our agenda and refuse to let anyone sway my own point of view without good evidence or arguments.

As for video and promises, search 'BIKOI, Phil Goff' on Youtube and you'll find his Parliament speech, in which he committed to undoing the ridiculous levy hikes if they become the government
Also the February protest speech he made, that's also on Youtube somewhere, maybe linked from ACC futures website but I cant be sure and don't have any time to go searching at the moment


I know MAG and BRONZ do not always see the same side of every argument but I do genuinely respect Anne for the work her and MAG do, whatever philosophical differences we have, and we worked very cooperatively on the Wellington Parking issue without any issues at all.
:yes:

The Wellington Treasurer (and Federation rep for Wellington) and myself met with Phil Goff, and Rick Barker a few weeks back, while we were at Parliament we also saw Dave Clendon, and Grant Robertson
We received full and unconditional support from all of them for the parking battle

More recently I met with Chris Hipkins, and yes Labour do have a plan, but they're keeping it quiet and I am not at liberty to divulge publicly what Chris shared with me, as I am one of his constituents I will honour my agreement with him to keep my mouth shut, but I can say as a biker (NOT as BRONZ and not as an MSAC member) - you will prefer his plans over Nationals mark my word.

He is just keeping it quiet until its appropriate to make it public

[bogan]

As for video and promises, search 'BIKOI, Phil Goff' on Youtube and you'll find his Parliament speech, in which he committed to undoing the ridiculous levy hikes if they become the government
Also the February protest speech he made, that's also on Youtube somewhere, maybe linked from ACC futures website but I cant be sure and don't have any time to go searching at the moment

I've found speeches, but none contain the promise you speak of (but I know he said it as I was there too), if you do get a chance to find em that'd be appreciated.

[riffer]

Okay guys, I have a bit of information from our sources in the Labour Party.

There are no plans to renege on their promises to roll back National's changes to the ACC levy increase portion of the Licensing fee. They are currently working hard on their more equitable way of redistributing the cost. When this policy has been agreed upon it will be released. No cospiracies or back door work - it's just the nature of party policy. It's very much as Stoney said two posts back - you're just going to have to wait.

One thing they will be keeping though is the MSL. They believe it is a good idea as it ring-fences some money and gives bikers an opportunity to have their own say regarding safety initiatives, particularly around roading.

[bogan]

It's very much as Stoney said two posts back - you're just going to have to wait.

Fair enough, as long as they understand they will have to wait for our support then.

[Maha]

I like this bit...

'They believe it is a good idea as it ring-fences some money and gives bikers an opportunity to have their own say regarding safety initiatives, particularly around roading'.

Sounds very much like a Labour led Government will lend us thier ear...that'll be nice change. Especially where our saftey on the road is concerned.

[StoneY]

I like this bit...

'They believe it is a good idea as it ring-fences some money and gives bikers an opportunity to have their own say regarding safety initiatives, particularly around roading'.

Sounds very much like a Labour led Government will lend us thier ear...that'll be nice change. Especially where our saftey on the road is concerned.

Could be adding to my woes saying this......... (likely to get sacked in fact!)

I do think we would get far more traction from a Labour/Greens coalition in regards OUR needs as road users than we would the current bosses. IMO anyway

It's no secret I support Labour, I am even a member of the party in fact.

[riffer]

Could be adding to my woes saying this......... (likely to get sacked in fact!)

I do think we would get far more traction from a Labour/Greens coalition in regards OUR needs as road users than we would the current bosses. IMO anyway

It's no secret I support Labour, I am even a member of the party in fact.

I dunno mate; traditionally public servants, while supposedly neutral, have made no effort to hide the fact that they are predominantly left-leaning. As an ex-union rep I also wouldn't have expected any less of you.

I hardly think you can be fired for expressing an opinion of this sort. It's hardly China, or Libya.

[Fatt Max]

It's hardly China....

You spent much time in Howick mate..??...:shit:

[Genestho]

I'll not be voting Labour, they have been arrogant and removed bullshit artists, the current bunch seem like they sail on any headline grabbing cause.

There really is no relevance to whom is in power on roading/safety or any further Motorcycling issues, NZTA are already consulting on roading issues and it will be going nationwide - it is already written in stone for 10 years regardless of whom is power.

And I will eat my hat if Labour get voted in and if they do.... if they really do anything to significantly change ACC.

[riffer]

... I will eat my hat if Labour get voted in and if they do.... if they really do anything to significantly change ACC.

I totally understand where you are coming from mate. This is however a democracy and the people need to be fully informed before they make their decision. I believe the current lot had a whole lot of stuff planned that they never talked about, and it behooves us to ask the questions of those who would pursue the mantle of responsibility (sic) that is Government.

And that is why I am happy to talk to ANYONE - even Winston Peters - if I can get a commitment from them for bikers.

[Genestho]

I can't comment on what's been allegedly planned and wasn't spoken of?

That's a bit vague for me.

And it behooves us to ask the questions of those who would pursue the mantle of responsibility (sic) that is Government.
Absolutely agree, if there's requirement on the individual then the same requirement must be given by those ultimately responsible for that which is outside of our control and I believe that's achievable.

I'm a believer that if you do nothing - that's exactly what you will get, but I am very very doubtful that labour would be the sole saviour you guys appear to expect them to be, especially at this time. Although I would wish lots of luck!


And that is why I am happy to talk to ANYONE - even Winston Peters - if I can get a commitment from them for bikers.
I guess that is the most important point, and even more importantly - to assert a role for Motorcyclists where their needs and requirements are respectfully counted and included in any roading or safety issues - regardless of who is in power.
From what I can see, this is exactly what we have, albeit in the very early stages.

[riffer]

I can't comment on what's been allegedly planned and hasn't happened, that's a bit vague for me.

Absolutely agree, if there's requirement on the individual then the same requirement must be given by those ultimately responsible for that which is outside of our control and I believe that's achievable.

I'm a believer that if you do nothing - that's exactly what you will get, but I am very very doubtful that labour would be the sole saviour you guys appear to expect them to be, especially at this time. Although I would wish lots of luck!


I guess that is the most important point, and even more importantly - to assert a role for Motorcyclists where their needs and requirements are counted and included in any roading or safety issues - regardless of who is in power.
From what I can see, this is exactly what we have, albeit in the very early stages.

Cheers mate.

The only saviours of motorcyclists here I see are the motorcyclists of New Zealand. I don't expect Labour, Greens, NZ First, National or Act to do a damn thing out of the kindness of their heart for us. We must help ourselves.

But I'd be a fool if I didn't listen to what anyone has to say.

[Genestho]

Cheers mate.

The only saviours of motorcyclists here I see are the motorcyclists of New Zealand. I don't expect Labour, Greens, NZ First, National or Act to do a damn thing out of the kindness of their heart for us. We must help ourselves.



Nail/Hammer/Head.

[riffer]

I just realised.

I sound like Katman. :facepalm:

[Genestho]

I just realised.

I sound like Katman. :facepalm:
Only gentler?

Hah! Of course, I would never have brought that to your attention :innocent:
In essence that is a true sentence though on so many levels, assuming you don't already know it..

That being the case then IMO it stands to reason that there's plenty of room to ask for what 'WE' want.

[Smifffy]

So how many months is it reasonable to be expected to be patient before hearing something, anything?

[Smifffy]

So how many months is it reasonable to be expected to be patient before hearing something, anything?

OK, so probably not until after May at least...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/japan-earthquake/4768098/Gareth-Morgan-forced-to-flee-tsunami

Clearly doing research on the hazards of motorcycling in NZ eh?

[Bald Eagle]

OK, so probably not until after May at least...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/japan-earthquake/4768098/Gareth-Morgan-forced-to-flee-tsunami

Clearly doing research on the hazards of motorcycling in NZ eh?

One does need to take abroad view of these things. :rolleyes:

[StoneY]

For a start there needs to be enough money to do anything with

Secondly, the council has had one singular meeting as yet - give us a break, how well do you all want it managed?

Cant just throw money around and say 'we are doing the work' there is a lot to be sorted out yet

[Bodir]

Response received from Mr Hipkins:

.... I'd suggest that if you want more info on what that group is up to, perhaps
you might like to get in touch with Brent? ...



:doh:

So Brent, how about it then? What is the group up to?

[StoneY]

So Brent, how about it then? What is the group up to?

Well I tried teling the wider community with a pretty open, honest and fairly detailed post, but was told not to breach the official comms plan...there is a team on our council that own that duty, I am not one of them (sadly)
So I had to wipe out my posts content.

I CAN say more information will be avaialble soon... there is some new info on the ACC site
Our MSAC group will have it own website in the near future (thats no secret so no breaches with that tidbit methinks)
We have only met once since forming ... so bugger all to report tbh

Funny...I meet with Chris Hipkins tomorrow, lol.
Guess he may know more himself by lunchtime :P

[Smifffy]

Well I tried teling the wider community with a pretty open, honest and fairly detailed post, but was told not to breach the official comms plan...there is a team on our council that own that duty, I am not one of them (sadly)
So I had to wipe out my posts content.

That's the bit that bugs me really, it's not like they have replaced your open and honest report with anything, not even PC gobbeldegook.



I CAN say more information will be avaialble soon... there is some new info on the ACC site

http://www.acc.co.nz/search-results/index.htm?ssUserText=msac

Edit:
Found something - 8 March sweet

http://www.acc.co.nz/search-results/index.htm?ssUserText=motorcycle+safety+advisory

http://www.acc.co.nz/PRD_EXT_CSMP/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=60016&dDocName=WPC090721&allowInterrupt=1

There's our man from the AA!


Our MSAC group will have it own website in the near future (thats no secret so no breaches with that tidbit methinks)
We have only met once since forming ... so bugger all to report tbh


Funny...I meet with Chris Hipkins tomorrow, lol.
Guess he may know more himself by lunchtime :P


Ask him if he knows the make-up of the working groups, for us eh?

[Smifffy]

For a start there needs to be enough money to do anything with

Secondly, the council has had one singular meeting as yet - give us a break, how well do you all want it managed?

Cant just throw money around and say 'we are doing the work' there is a lot to be sorted out yet

Wordpress, gmail and the use of this forum are all free. Right now I'd be interested in the agenda/minutes of that meeting.

I'd like to know the make up of the working groups, how many working groups there are, and what their broad objectives are. Edit: Also a contact for a member of the working groups, and a contact for enquiries.

As for money, have you already spent my $30?

If so, I'd also like to know what it was spent on.

Cheers

[StoneY]

Wordpress, gmail and the use of this forum are all free. Right now I'd be interested in the agenda/minutes of that meeting.

I'd like to know the make up of the working groups, how many working groups there are, and what their broad objectives are. Edit: Also a contact for a member of the working groups, and a contact for enquiries.

As for money, have you already spent my $30?

If so, I'd also like to know what it was spent on.

Cheers

FFS, just wait it will all be made public once the official websites up
And NO we aint spent your 30$ or my 90$ or my fiance's 30$ either....

There is already a shitload of info on how this works out there already, plenty on this website alone (although there is a lot of bullshit here too) and no, not ONE red cent of MSL money has yet been spent but ACC have spent quite a bit on getting it set up from the operational budget (which does NOT come from your MSL fee's) for the nintieth freaking time

As for your other queries, either wait for the official website or do as Rustic did and you might get the answers your seeking - I cant provide any of that information on Kiwibiker

[Smifffy]

FFS, just wait it will all be made public once the official websites up
And NO we aint spent your 30$ or my 90$ or my fiance's 30$ either....

There is already a shitload of info on how this works out there already, plenty on this website alone (although there is a lot of bullshit here too) and no, not ONE red cent of MSL money has yet been spent but ACC have spent quite a bit on getting it set up from the operational budget (which does NOT come from your MSL fee's) for the nintieth freaking time

As for your other queries, either wait for the official website or do as Rustic did and you might get the answers your seeking - I cant provide any of that information on Kiwibiker

Ok, calm down. It wasn't me that claimed there was a lack of money.

I have been told repeatedly that there is nothing yet to tell. I have also been told repeatedly that working groups have been established, and I have also asked about agenda and minutes. If these don't exist, I'd have to ask further questions about what is happening.

Why could not the comms group have read over your original post, run the censor's pen over it, endorsed it and released it?


The minister rushed out with the press release in early January. Things have happened since then.

We will wait, just not necessarily in silence.

[Ronin]

FFS, just wait it will all be made public once the official websites up
And NO we aint spent your 30$ or my 90$ or my fiance's 30$ either....

There is already a shitload of info on how this works out there already, plenty on this website alone (although there is a lot of bullshit here too) and no, not ONE red cent of MSL money has yet been spent but ACC have spent quite a bit on getting it set up from the operational budget (which does NOT come from your MSL fee's) for the nintieth freaking time

As for your other queries, either wait for the official website or do as Rustic did and you might get the answers your seeking - I cant provide any of that information on Kiwibiker

Settle Grettle.

Because if you don't settle and the Minister has the way you communicate on here bought to his attention (by say the media), then your ass wont even touch the ground on the way out the door and then your'e no use to anyone.

They may not say it to you, but Ministarial appointee's are expected to hold themselves to a higher standard.

[Pixie]

This comment would have validity if members of those organisations were paid members, doing this for a job. As they are unpaid voluntary members of these organisations I suggest the payment is for their INDIVIDUAL services rendered. The individuals were chosen INDIVIDUALLY BY THE MINISTER because HE BELIEVED that they would do the best by motorcyclists, not because of any advocacy by the representative motorcycling groups. There is one odd one out, the member of AA, who was added after extensive lobbying by the Automobile Association.

However all members are there as individuals.

What's your point?



What does it matter to you? Look up in ACC's annual reports for what they pay consultants for meetings. This will give you an idea. It's not an unreasonable amount IMO.

Again, what's your point?




Each member gets one vote. Look at each member's organisation's annual reports if you want to know how many members there are. However, as I have already indicated, given that each member is there not to represent their organisation but due to their individual abilities, it's neither here nor there.

I think you're trying to put a spin on things that really isn't there mate.

Why are you being so evasive?

[Pixie]

Well it was my sole idea to post what I did mate and in a haze of fatigue from a hard week, I ignored set protocols in regards to 'public press releases' and the post I made could have been seen as that due to the public nature of this forum.

I meant well, and none of what I posted is not available at request from ACC anyway but I stepped on a few toes by jumping the gun and thats what I did wrong

;)

The old "Confidentiality Agreement" huh?

[Pixie]

Read the thread.

All I see is a lot of defending ACC by proponents of MCballSAC.

I can't believe it would be so easy to manipulate motorcyclists - just wave a little cash and stroke their egos.

[Pixie]

FFS dudes start listening.

There are a bunch of people on the MCSAC who have been hand-picked by the Minister of ACC, Nick Smith.



Eeeewww - I hope he wiped the semen of his hands before he did this.

[Pixie]

Once again........

They're there to spend some money - not formulate policy.

They are there to be manipulated by the govt. and to allow the govt. to say "we consulted with bikers".
When the toll does not diminish the govt. will blame them and by association (bullshit) bikers.
Then the govt. will use that failure to formulate policy.

[Pixie]

[B]

• Motorcyclists make up 3% of registered vehicles but 13% of fatalities


This seems to imply that the "18 times" really is bullshit.

Oops,what a give away

[Str8 Jacket]

.....and they say that talking to yourself is a sign of insanity.... :facepalm:

[Katman]

When the toll does not diminish.....

That's where the rest of us come into it.

[oneofsix]

They are there to be manipulated by the govt. and to allow the govt. to say "we consulted with bikers".
When the toll does not diminish the govt. will blame them and by association (bullshit) bikers.
Then the govt. will use that failure to formulate policy.

I love the positive outlook expressed here ... and the alternative is to ... not get involved and the govt will still blame the bikers :2thumbsup:

[avgas]

OK, so probably not until after May at least...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/japan-earthquake/4768098/Gareth-Morgan-forced-to-flee-tsunami

Clearly doing research on the hazards of motorcycling in NZ eh?
You have that all wrong.

Someone chucked him a 'kiwisaver' during his holiday.
Really saved his life.