Setting speed limits - a US perspective

[Tunahunter]

http://bettermotorcycling.wordpress.com/2011/02/26/hazard-detection-speed-variance/

[MSTRS]

Speed variance - the perfect argument for dropping the 70kph 6L condition. Which is in the pipeline, thankfully.

[Bassmatt]

Interesting, but speed variance is clearly not considered an issue in NZ, in my experience.
Several times in the last year or so I have been in looong lines of traffic traveling 20 - 30 km/h below the speed limit between Tauranga and Te Puke. On 3 occasions there has been a police car near the front of the cue and they have sat there happily plodding along like this for 10 minutes or so.
I have spoken to a Police officer about this issue and his reply was "its ok because people traveling at that speed dont cause accidents":facepalm:

[MSTRS]

If they were 'all' doing it, where was the variance?

[Bassmatt]

If they were 'all' doing it, where was the variance?

Every vehicle that came up to the back of the cue. No doubt if the popo hadnt been part of the cue there would have been a lot more speed variance with people attempting to pass.

[skinman]

which leads to the issue of 30k signs at roadworks on 100k roads, usually with no evidence of any obstruction. Big enough speed difference for ya.
god help you if a cop sees you going through those because at 60k you will lose your license

[MSTRS]

71+ actually...
But on that subject, why do we find roadworks that are all but finished (just the lines to paint) or a patch repair in one wheeltrack of one lane, marked at 30kph. But then come across one where the seal is gone and there's just loose, uncompacted basecourse, and that fucker is marked at 70kph?

[Katman]

71+ actually...


81+ actually - the loss of licence limit is raised to 50kph over in a temporary speed zone.

Don't ask how I know. :facepalm:

[trailblazer]

81+ actually - the loss of licence limit is raised to 50kph over in a temporary speed zone.

Don't ask how I know. :facepalm:

thats good to know as i have always thought and have been told that it was double the temporary speed posted so if posted at 30 if you were doing 61 your licence is gone. Dunno how my theory works in a 70k temporary posted area though.

[Ocean1]

Interesting, but speed variance is clearly not considered an issue in NZ, in my experience.

It is. It's just that the traffic engineers that actually do know about statistical modeling for safety get over-ridden by local bodies and other "authorities" that know fuck all about it.

It's difficult to argue that increasing speed limits will make a road safer, (because you're often arguing with fuckwits) but it's often perfectly correct. In fact the 85% rationale described in the link is not quite correct, 85% of the mean unrestricted speed is simply the control datum, the safest speed is usually a bit higher than that.

[CookMySock]

Except that "tailgating, illegal passing and congestion" aren't really concepts associated with motorcycling.

[Katman]

Except that "tailgating, illegal passing and congestion" aren't really concepts associated with motorcycling.

Really????

[Kickaha]

Really????

He's a lot dumber than he sounds

[Rhys]

"Exceeding the posted speed limit, in and of itself, is not the whole story. The variance in speed created by lower speed limits is more likely to create conflicts and hazards.":doh:
All seam pretty obvious to me !

maybe I should get a job in tranzit :rolleyes:

[CookMySock]

Really????Overtaking law, theory, and practice for bikes are totally different to cars. Illegal passing isn't illegal when you can just slip past a car sharing its lane or taking only 300mm of white line. Enormous power/weight ratio means passing is trivial. Even passing on yellows or even double yellows is completely legal providing they are not crossed - concepts foreign to car drivers.

Why would a motorcycle tailgate any vehicle when he/she can pass so trivially?

Why would a motorcyclist permit a vehicle to tailgate in a dangerous or intimidating fashion when he/she could simply overtake the vehicle in front and dispense with the problem?

All of the above completely deal to the congestion issue.

[Katman]

Overtaking....*brainless bullshit*.....issue

Go back to selling ice-creams.

[scumdog]

Except that "tailgating, illegal passing and congestion" aren't really concepts associated with motorcycling.

They still seem to kill a few motorcyclist though...."not associated with motorcycling" eh:weird:

[MSTRS]

Except that good advice, road rules, and safe, legal motorcycling aren't really concepts with which I'm associated.

Fixed that for ya...

[trailblazer]

Overtaking law, theory, and practice for bikes are totally different to cars. Illegal passing isn't illegal when you can just slip past a car sharing its lane or taking only 300mm of white line. Enormous power/weight ratio means passing is trivial. Even passing on yellows or even double yellows is completely legal providing they are not crossed - concepts foreign to car drivers.

Why would a motorcycle tailgate any vehicle when he/she can pass so trivially?

Why would a motorcyclist permit a vehicle to tailgate in a dangerous or intimidating fashion when he/she could simply overtake the vehicle in front and dispense with the problem?

All of the above completely deal to the congestion issue.

double yellow lines on the road is the same as a yellow flag on a race track it means no passing and if a police officer see's you doing so you are fucked. Road rules are road rules and it does't matter what you are driving or riding it dosn't matter if its a car bike or truck the road rules are the same for everyone why would motorcycles be any differant. I would like to see someone argue your point with a police officer or a judge when your losing your licence for dangerous driving.

[oneofsix]

double yellow lines on the road is the same as a yellow flag on a race track it means no passing and if a police officer see's you doing so you are fucked. Road rules are road rules and it does't matter what you are driving or riding it dosn't matter if its a car bike or truck the road rules are the same for everyone why would motorcycles be any differant. I would like to see someone argue your point with a police officer or a judge when your losing your licence for dangerous driving.

Sorry but you is wrong. Yellow lines, double or single only the one on your side counts, mean you aren't allowed to cross to the other side to pass. Using your argument there would be no passing in passing lanes.

Passing where roadway marked with no-passing line

*

(1) This clause applies if a driver is at or approaching a portion of a roadway where the road controlling authority has, in accordance with any enactment, marked a no-passing line applying to traffic moving in the direction in which the driver is moving.

(2) The driver must not pass or attempt to pass a motor vehicle or an animal-drawn vehicle moving in the same direction within the length of roadway on which the no-passing line is marked until the driver reaches the further end of the no-passing line, unless throughout the passing movement the driver keeps the vehicle wholly to the left of the no-passing line.

[Whynot]

double yellow lines on the road is the same as a yellow flag on a race track it means no passing

No it doesn't.

It means no crossing the yellow line, if you can overtake without crossing the line its perfectly ok.

[Grubber]

double yellow lines on the road is the same as a yellow flag on a race track it means no passing and if a police officer see's you doing so you are fucked. Road rules are road rules and it does't matter what you are driving or riding it dosn't matter if its a car bike or truck the road rules are the same for everyone why would motorcycles be any differant. I would like to see someone argue your point with a police officer or a judge when your losing your licence for dangerous driving.

I can relate to this. I was given a ticket for passing on a double yellow that i didn't cross. It's illegal...:eek:
Just for the record...i knew it was before i did it too.:spanking:

[MSTRS]

I can relate to this. I was given a ticket for passing on a double yellow that i didn't cross. It's illegal...:eek:
Just for the record...i knew it was before i did it too.:spanking:

Could depend on individual circumstances. And the wording on the ticket. Are you sure you weren't ticketed for 'unsafe passing'?
It is not illegal, per se, to pass another vehicle, if you don't touch or cross the yellow line.

[onearmedbandit]

OMFG, the village idiot is back. Fuck...



He's a lot dumber than he sounds

Even though that seems virtually impossible, I have to agree.

[onearmedbandit]

I have spoken to a Police officer about this issue and his reply was "its ok because people traveling at that speed dont cause accidents":facepalm:

This is the bit I'm struggling to believe. And even if it is true, one cops opinion does not mean the entire forces opinion.

[trailblazer]

I can relate to this. I was given a ticket for passing on a double yellow that i didn't cross. It's illegal...:eek:
Just for the record...i knew it was before i did it too.:spanking:

i have a work mate that has been ticketed for this exact thing while i was following him and he couldn't get out of it even when it went to court. He lost his licence for demerit points as a result of this ticket.

[MSTRS]

i have a work mate that has been ticketed for this exact thing while i was following him and he couldn't get out of it even when it went to court. He lost his licence for demerit points as a result of this ticket.

Then, either he did cross the line, or the cop lied or his lawyer was feckin useless...

The road code states http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadcode/about-driving/passing.html. Note the picture showing the blue car passing the orange - within the same lane.

Could it be a 'grey' area...the rules do state 'where there is room for two vehicles'....we all know that officially, motorcycles don't count as a vehicle (except for offences, of course)...so maybe the lane was too narrow for two cars side-by-side.

[Katman]

Note the picture showing the blue car passing the red - within the same lane.

I hate to think of the carnage that would ensue if it became widely known amongst car drivers that that passing manouevre is legal.

Do you seriously want car drivers legally muscling past motorcyclists simply because they believe there's room for them and the motorcyclist within that lane?

[oneofsix]

I hate to think of the carnage that would ensue if it became widely known amongst car drivers that that passing manouevre is legal.

Do you seriously want car drivers legally muscling past motorcyclists simply because they believe there's room for them and the motorcyclist within that lane?

I've had it happen a couple of times, especial when i had the yellow target hanging off the number plate. Funny enough those drivers weren't a problem, gave me plenty of room and were watching out for me. They had at least seen me :first:

[MSTRS]

I hate to think of the carnage that would ensue if it became widely known amongst car drivers that that passing manouevre is legal.

Do you seriously want car drivers legally muscling past motorcyclists simply because they believe there's room for them and the motorcyclist within that lane?

If the motorcyclist wants to sit well to the left...then they invite just that.

The thing is - it's legal, it's in the road code, and every motorist has the right to do it.

[trailblazer]

he was riding a bike and there was plenty of room for a car and a bike as the car was only a little mazda 2. He never crossed the yellow lines. the ticket stated dangerous driving while passing on double yellow lines. the car was by the left hand white line and you could of passed with another smallish car without crossing the yellow lines and we hadn't even got to the speed limit which was 80ks. the judge went on about how it was dangerous riding and that he had to show zero tollerance for such a reckless incidant. We had no evidance to prove his innocence other than my statment so either the ticket was worded wrong or the judge dosn't like motorcyclists.

[MSTRS]

he was riding a bike and there was plenty of room for a car and a bike as the car was only a little mazda 2. He never crossed the yellow lines. the ticket stated dangerous driving while passing on double yellow lines. the car was by the left hand white line and you could of passed with another smallish car without crossing the yellow lines and we hadn't even got to the speed limit which was 80ks. the judge went on about how it was dangerous riding and that he had to show zero tollerance for such a reckless incidant. We had no evidance to prove his innocence other than my statment so either the ticket was worded wrong or the judge dosn't like motorcyclists.

Traffic court...prolly a JP. And why didn't your mate (or his lawyer) put a copy of the road code in front of the court?

However, the charge was 'dangerous driving' which is wholly different from 'illegal overtaking manouevre'...

[oneofsix]

he was riding a bike and there was plenty of room for a car and a bike as the car was only a little mazda 2. He never crossed the yellow lines. the ticket stated dangerous driving while passing on double yellow lines. the car was by the left hand white line and you could of passed with another smallish car without crossing the yellow lines and we hadn't even got to the speed limit which was 80ks. the judge went on about how it was dangerous riding and that he had to show zero tollerance for such a reckless incidant. We had no evidance to prove his innocence other than my statment so either the ticket was worded wrong or the judge dosn't like motorcyclists.

Sorry trailblazer but you are just a scum bag motorcyclist and what judge would listen to you over the nice policeman. I particularly like the "dangerous driving whilst" bit, means the charge wasn't overtaking on the no passing lane. Me thinks you were done.

[Katman]

If the motorcyclist wants to sit well to the left...then they invite just that.


Trouble is John, there's plenty of New Zealand car drivers would wouldn't think twice about intimidating a motorcyclist into moving over to the left.

The law is a recipe for disaster.

[marty]

from the article:

I have investigated more motorcycle fatalities in 25 and 35 mph zones than in any other posted range.

Is that because they were ignoring the posted speed and exceeding the limit, allowing the holes in the cheese to start lining up, or they simply fell off at 25-35mph?

[Highlander]

Then, either he did cross the line, or the cop lied or his lawyer was feckin useless...

The road code states http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadcode/about-driving/passing.html. Note the picture showing the blue car passing the orange - within the same lane.

Could it be a 'grey' area...the rules do state 'where there is room for two vehicles'....we all know that officially, motorcycles don't count as a vehicle (except for offences, of course)...so maybe the lane was too narrow for two cars side-by-side.


From your link:
"You can pass at a no-passing line if:

you stay on your side of the solid yellow line, and
you can see 100 metres of clear road in front of you for the whole time while you are passing, and
the lane is wide enough for two vehicles. "

Bold added for effect. Note the second bit. I have often seen this done when there wasn't 100m visibility ahead ( may have even done it myself). Might that have been the reason for the ticket?

[Swoop]

The road code states http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadcode/about-driving/passing.html. Note the picture showing the blue car passing the orange - within the same lane.
I'm still amazed with the amount of kiwi drivers who fail to comprehend the "Passing on a three-laned road" situation.
They see a bit of yellow and say "you can't pass here".:weird::rolleyes:

[MSTRS]

Trouble is John, there's plenty of New Zealand car drivers would wouldn't think twice about intimidating a motorcyclist into moving over to the left.

Perhaps. Which is reason enough to travel at the same speed (or fractionally more) than the rest of the traffic. Or be aware of what is behind, and being proactive about moving over before being forced to...


The law is a recipe for disaster.
Not really. And it's always been the law.

[oneofsix]

I'm still amazed with the amount of kiwi drivers who fail to comprehend the "Passing on a three-laned road" situation.
They see a bit of yellow and say "you can't pass here".:weird::rolleyes:

That's interesting as they didn't use to put the bit that specifically says you can pass like that in the road code, you use to have to work it out for yourself. I suspect this is why so many still believe you can't pass like this, they haven't worked it out or looked at a recent road code :doh:

[Katman]

Perhaps. Which is reason enough to travel at the same speed (or fractionally more) than the rest of the traffic. Or be aware of what is behind, and being proactive about moving over before being forced to...


All well and good - until you throw inexperience into the mix.

[MSTRS]

True. Everyone starts out inexperienced. Some don't make it to experienced. And there's only one way to become experienced, isn't there?
Impatient, fuckwit cagers are just one part of a whole book of things a rider must learn about.

[trailblazer]

Sorry trailblazer but you are just a scum bag motorcyclist and what judge would listen to you over the nice policeman. I particularly like the "dangerous driving whilst" bit, means the charge wasn't overtaking on the no passing lane. Me thinks you were done.


I guess it is a bit like the ticket i got in my car. Operating a motor vehcile with an unsafe seat. All it was was just a small tear in the seat on the right side of the back the car had gotten off 2 pink stickers and had 2 brand new wofs from vtnz with that seat in there. The cop that had pulled me up had pulled me up 2 days prior and pink stickered me for suspension and i had just got off the pink sticker and when he pulled me up this time he asked about my suspension again so i told him he couldn't do shit about it as i had gotten off his last bullshit fine and i didn't have to do anything to the car as it was perfectly legal thats when he hit me with the unsafe seat fine andi couldn't get out of the fine. So i guess it all comes down to the wording on the ticket.

[onearmedbandit]

I guess it is a bit like the ticket i got in my car. Operating a motor vehcile with an unsafe seat. All it was was just a small tear in the seat on the right side of the back the car had gotten off 2 pink stickers and had 2 brand new wofs from vtnz with that seat in there. The cop that had pulled me up had pulled me up 2 days prior and pink stickered me for suspension and i had just got off the pink sticker and when he pulled me up this time he asked about my suspension again so i told him he couldn't do shit about it as i had gotten off his last bullshit fine and i didn't have to do anything to the car as it was perfectly legal thats when he hit me with the unsafe seat fine andi couldn't get out of the fine. So i guess it all comes down to the wording on the ticket.

Really? You got a ticket for that? Or was it a ticket for your attitude?

[Bassmatt]

This is the bit I'm struggling to believe. And even if it is true, one cops opinion does not mean the entire forces opinion.

When was the last time you saw or heard about someone being pulled over let alone ticketed for traveling too far below the posted limit?
Fuck they could fill there quota in a week around here if they were interested, AFAIK it just doesnt happen.

[onearmedbandit]

When was the last time you saw or heard about someone being pulled over let alone ticketed for traveling too far below the posted limit?
Fuck they could fill there quota in a week around here if they were interested, AFAIK it just doesnt happen.

There is no law against driving below the limit. There is however a law against impeding the flow of traffic.

[Bassmatt]

There is no law against driving below the limit. There is however a law against impeding the flow of traffic.

With the volume of traffic these days it amounts to the same thing 99% of the time. But just for you I'll rephrase the question:
So, when was the last time you saw or heard of anyone being pulled over or ticketed for impeding the flow of traffic?
I recall the threat being made to ( i think) farmers driving tractors who were protesting about Rodney being included in the super city, or something, dont think anything was actioned though.

[onearmedbandit]

With the volume of traffic these days it amounts to the same thing 99% of the time. But just for you I'll rephrase the question:
So, when was the last time you saw or heard of anyone being pulled over or ticketed for impeding the flow of traffic?
I recall the threat being made to ( i think) farmers driving tractors who were protesting about Rodney being included in the super city, or something, dont think anything was actioned though.

Aw just faw liddle ole me? Gee thunks mister!

I understood you the first time, I just corrected you. No charge, this time. And I'm sure there are probably 10,000 tickets issued for speeding for every ticket handed out for 'impeding the flow of traffic'. But to answer your question, would've been about 10yrs ago I saw someone getting pulled for impeding the flow of traffic. And I can't say I've seen 10,000 occasions since of people being pulled over for anything.

[Bassmatt]

Aw just faw liddle ole me? Gee thunks mister!

I understood you the first time, I just corrected you. No charge, this time. And I'm sure there are probably 10,000 tickets issued for speeding for every ticket handed out for 'impeding the flow of traffic'. But to answer your question, would've been about 10yrs ago I saw someone getting pulled for impeding the flow of traffic. And I can't say I've seen 10,000 occasions since of people being pulled over for anything.

How many times have you been held up by a vehicle compared to seeing vehicles speeding? Iwould be maybe 2 or 3 for 1 around here in the last few years .I dont know what the drivers are like where you are but here in the retirement capital of NZ you will encounter long lines of traffic travelling at 70 or 80 ks two or three times on every half hour (should only take 20 mins) trip between my home and Tauranga or vice versa.

[trailblazer]

Really? You got a ticket for that? Or was it a ticket for your attitude?
Yip got a ticket for that. He was going to give me another ticket and a pink sticker for my suspension and i pointed out that i got a brand new vtnz wof at lunch time which was 3 hours before and had only just came from tauranga police station where they had removed the pink sticker so i thought it was unfair of him to issue another one. He then told me that it means absolutly nothing and that i could have modified my car between then and now. Then he looked over my whole car he evan checked all the lights and all he could fined was a tear in the seat and pulled the foam back a bit which exposed the frame of the seat. the tear was only 40mm long as we measured and took photo for our letter of complaint. I have been pulled over many times in my younger years with modified cars and i have a great respect for the police and never give them any attitude as I believe if your breaking the law you deserve to be caught. But this cop was on a power trip that i had never seen before in a police officer.

[Whynot]

How many times have you been held up by a vehicle compared to seeing vehicles speeding? Iwould be maybe 2 or 3 for 1 around here in the last few years .I dont know what the drivers are like where you are but here in the retirement capital of NZ you will encounter long lines of traffic travelling at 70 or 80 ks two or three times on every half hour (should only take 20 mins) trip between my home and Tauranga or vice versa.

ditto, i get held up at 70-80 at least twice a day on my commute.
last week i was in a queue doing 60-65 at least a few times as well.
didn't see anyone obviously speeding in that whole time.

[onearmedbandit]

Bit different down here then I think. For one we wouldn't have the volume of traffic, and secondly I would wager I see more people over the limit still (in any amount) then those that are travelling slow enough to considerably hold up traffic. Otherwise I just pass them.

[R-Soul]

I was interested to observe the difference between the SAffa approach to speed limits, and the Kiwis. The differences are probably due to the terrain . The Kiwis set a general speed limit of say 100kph, and then post speed recommendations on each corner, meaning that the true average speed is generally a LOT lower than the 100kph limit.

On the other hand, Saffa roads are initially designated as being a road "type" (eg highway, fast rural road, or urban road) straight off the bat, and then designed so that motorists can easily keep up to the speeds expected of that type of road - so for example for a motorway that means no sharp turns, no traffic lights, and double lane roads where possible, so that a speed of at least 120kph is pretty much always possible. For fast rural roads, that means no sharp turns, and ample warning for stops signs/traffic lights. Tunnels and excavations and brodges will be made to ensure that the passage along that road meets the required standards of that road type. Obviously "no sharp turns" is generally not possible in NZ because of the terrain and cost involved.

The point is that when you are on a motorway in SA, you can expect to keep a certain speed - this helps a lot with planning times for long journeys, and probably enusures that accidents are reduced as well. If they expected people to drive to the conditions, this might just be too much for some.

In exceptional circumstances, where a sharp turn is unavoidable, for e.g. in a gorge, then the entire speed limit is reduced, not just a slow down recommended.

In a way, it is a lot more "nanny stateish" in SA, but is probably also safer in general (at least for dealing with idiots). Then again, people just push their luck more, and speed at 180kph instead of 130kph, because they are pretty certain that the road will hold no surprises and they can go at least 120kph on that type of road safely.

I quite like the NZ way, because the idea of "driving to the conditons" is more ingrained, so if things get extreme, people have the mentality to adapt. You should see the carnage when a large rainstorm washes through Johannesburg... ("Why should I have slowed down to less than 120kph for 15m visibility conditions? The speed limit is 120!"). On the other hand, high speed travel seems to be a bit of an anomaly in NZ (at least on most of the north island - the parts that I have seen).

[MSTRS]

...the NZ way...people have the mentality to adapt...

Surely he jests...

[oneofsix]

Surely he jests...

maybe he meant "the people are mental, will have to adapt". But we are talking about a S.African. :psst:

[Katman]

Obviously "no sharp turns" is generally not possible in NZ because of the terrain and cost involved.


South Africa doesn't have taniwhas that need to be paid off.

[PrincessBandit]

It means no crossing the yellow line, if you can overtake without crossing the line its perfectly ok.
Just makes the whole equation a bit tighter with less room for error.


Trouble is John, there's plenty of New Zealand car drivers would wouldn't think twice about intimidating a motorcyclist into moving over to the left.

Had it happen to me twice along busy roads on the way home from uni just this afternoon. I wasn't about to be bullied so held my line while making sure they could see my helmeted head turned stoically in their direction, even though my eyes were flicking back and forth between everything else around me.


I'm still amazed with the amount of kiwi drivers who fail to comprehend the "Passing on a three-laned road" situation.
They see a bit of yellow and say "you can't pass here".:weird::rolleyes:

I'm reluctant to overtake a car in my lane simply because I could without crossing "my side" of the yellow (unless I'm low speed filtering, and that's not usually where double yellows are). However, two lanes (including passing lane) with single yellow on the oncoming side is fair game as the yellow is not on your side, therefore allowing you to use it in the absence of any oncoming vehicles. At least that's how I've always read it...I could be wrong...