View Full Version : Three Strikes Protest Run, 5 May
MAG-NZ Inc
18th April 2011, 22:21
The government has struck out at us three times now. We will not tolerate this any longer, and it is time we showed them!
What they have done:
1) Used bikers as a smokescreen to mask the introduction of risk based levies, and massive levy increases.
2) Attempted to justify the hike with misleading statistics and unjustified financial model changes.
3) Ramped up roadside 'safety' checks - in reality poorly disguised rego and WOF checks - and now the introduction of demerits for unlicensed vehicles.
What they deliberately overlook:
They tout the risk based system as being fairer for everyone, by arbitrarily creating different road user groups and charging based on the likely treatment cost. Well many of us own multiple vehicles, so appear in those groups and pay more than once. How is it fair we pay multiple levies yet are only eligible for a single treatment? How can they justify a minimum three month on hold period, when that makes it so expensive to be law abiding with infrequently ridden bikes? And to assume all drivers in each class have the same level of risk is at the very least idiotic, if not irresponsible; with the implication that safer vehicles are more important than safer drivers. The myriad of different variables needed to create a truly fair risk based system would create massive administrative overheads to process. This is a system that is not required, not wanted and moves ACC yet further away from the Woodhouse principles towards private insurance.
What we demand they do:
1) Remove the vehicle-based levies, to be replaced with a fuel-based levy collection system as a first step, ultimately returning to the Woodhouse Principles.
2) The minimum on-hold period of three months to be removed.
3) All political parties make their stance known about ACC: whether they are in favour of the no-fault Woodhouse system, if they agree with the move to full future funding, where they stand on risk-based levies and if they would agree to private insurers in the system.
What can you do?
Support the three strikes demonstration ride; this will take place on Thursday 5th May 12 noon. The idea is that you meet up with other protesters, ride together to the local ACC offices, then ride to the National party offices (because we all know who is really behind this crap). At both locations you will arrange yourselves to present a smokescreen of motorcycles: we’ll let them see us and hear us! There will be a letter to noisily deliver to each location stating our grievances and demands. Meeting points to be announced when finalised.
Currently we have ride coordinators for Auckland, Wellington and Tauranga if you would like to organise one in your region let us know!
Ride Details:
Cancelled.
CookMySock
19th April 2011, 08:32
Oooooo this will fuck them up real baaaaaaad.
kave
19th April 2011, 09:39
this will take place on Thursday 5th May 12 noon.
I hope you get a number in the double-figures turning out, but I doubt it. Perhaps you would have more luck protesting at a time that people who aren't uni students, shift workers or unemployed can attend.
bogan
19th April 2011, 09:54
I hope you get a number in the double-figures turning out, but I doubt it. Perhaps you would have more luck protesting at a time that people who aren't uni students, shift workers or unemployed can attend.
Yeh it's tough to get the right balance there, hoping some people can just come along on their lunch breaks. The other option is to have more riders, but nobody in the places to protest at (politicians aren't known for long office hours :rolleyes:). It is likely we will try the later one at some point in future too.
Str8 Jacket
19th April 2011, 09:57
Can someone please tell me WHY MAG intend to protest this law? What has it got to do with motorcycling??
Fatt Max
19th April 2011, 10:06
Good on you guys for getting out there. I shall be there if I can possibly make it
StoneY
19th April 2011, 10:15
I completely agree on protesting the demerit points for registration breaches, but simply cant find time mid week to participate, its a very busy time for me the month of May.
I know you want to hit TPTB during their office hours, but think you will struggle for numbers.
Note, if you iontend to hit Parlaiment you need the Speakers permission to enter the grounds.....
Good luck, I support your effort in principle but also think you risk losing the message by including too many issues in a single event.
Brent
BoristheBiter
19th April 2011, 17:40
I completely agree on protesting the demerit points for registration breaches, but simply cant find time mid week to participate, its a very busy time for me the month of May.
I know you want to hit TPTB during their office hours, but think you will struggle for numbers.
Note, if you iontend to hit Parlaiment you need the Speakers permission to enter the grounds.....
Good luck, I support your effort in principle but also think you risk losing the message by including too many issues in a single event.
Brent
What is so bad about demerits for unpaid rego?
Why should you just get away with driving/riding for free on the roads?
Half these people never pay the fines so maybe this might be a deterrent because otherwise it's just a slap in the face for the people that do pay it.
The rest i do agree with so please carry on.
PS not having a go just you are one of the only ones on here that makes sense.
swbarnett
19th April 2011, 18:21
What is so bad about demerits for unpaid rego?
The intent of the demerit system is to get drivers who show themselves to be dangerous by offending repeatedly off the road. Not having rego has nothing to do with the act of driving or the state in which you keep your vehicle.
Chancebmx25
19th April 2011, 18:35
yerrr im thea!!
bogan
19th April 2011, 18:40
What is so bad about demerits for unpaid rego?
Why should you just get away with driving/riding for free on the roads?
Half these people never pay the fines so maybe this might be a deterrent because otherwise it's just a slap in the face for the people that do pay it.
Those that don't pay may drive without a license too? I don't think you should be able to drive for free on the roads, nor do I think some users should have to pay upwards of double what others pay, for the same service.
The main thing that pisses me off is it is just further steps to enforce an unjust rego system. In fact our demands are focused on making the levy/registration costs fairer, rather than easier to avoid.
BoristheBiter
19th April 2011, 19:37
The intent of the demerit system is to get drivers who show themselves to be dangerous by offending repeatedly off the road. Not having rego has nothing to do with the act of driving or the state in which you keep your vehicle.
Yep and if you don't have a current rego then you shouldn't be on the road, end of story. If you choose not to purchase your rego then prepare to suffer the consequence. As just a fine is no longer a deterrent TPTB have decided maybe using demerits might make people pay up. I somehow doubt it.
Those that don't pay may drive without a license too? I don't think you should be able to drive for free on the roads, nor do I think some users should have to pay upwards of double what others pay, for the same service.
The main thing that pisses me off is it is just further steps to enforce an unjust rego system. In fact our demands are focused on making the levy/registration costs fairer, rather than easier to avoid.
But that comes down to all vehicles, just like RUC, and GST on petrol tax, trucks that hold me up, and people doing 80 in the outside lane.
I agree that there are a shit load things that need fixing i feel the protest should be focused on why we pay more acc and not get bogged down with a list of things that piss us off.
Some things in life are just unfair.
bogan
19th April 2011, 19:55
I agree that there are a shit load things that need fixing i feel the protest should be focused on why we pay more acc and not get bogged down with a list of things that piss us off.
But what we want out of this does address why we pay more ACC, or is a good place to start at any rate.
BoristheBiter
19th April 2011, 19:57
But what we want out of this does address why we pay more ACC, or is a good place to start at any rate.
I suppose so. It doesn't help that it's all fucked up to start with.
Good luck.
JohnR
19th April 2011, 22:36
I agree that there are a shit load things that need fixing i feel the protest should be focused on why we pay more acc and not get bogged down with a list of things that piss us off.
Some things in life are just unfair.
Never mind. You just sit home and watch Jeremy Kyle and someone else will sort it all out.:facepalm:
swbarnett
19th April 2011, 23:12
Yep and if you don't have a current rego then you shouldn't be on the road, end of story.
Genuine question - what is your reasoning for this?
If you choose not to purchase your rego then prepare to suffer the consequence.
Totally agree but why should the concequences of having no rego be worse than the concequences of not having a WOF, something that can be argued is a genuine safety issue?
BoristheBiter
20th April 2011, 07:22
Never mind. You just sit home and watch Jeremy Kyle and someone else will sort it all out.:facepalm:
Will do thanks for your blessing to do so.:woohoo:
BoristheBiter
20th April 2011, 07:38
Genuine question - what is your reasoning for this?
Totally agree but why should the concequences of having no rego be worse than the concequences of not having a WOF, something that can be argued is a genuine safety issue?
1) Because it is the law. Why do some people think that they have a right to do things with out paying for them? or think that they are above the law?
2) It shouldn't. IMHO there should be demerits on every road infringement. It might then get people to start obeying the road rules and it might then become safer on the roads.
Maha
20th April 2011, 07:48
Yeah...Pro Demerits.....:rockon:
oneofsix
20th April 2011, 07:55
1) Because it is the law. .
Used to be the law that woman, maori and non land owners couldn't vote. Ever here the law is an ass? Demerits should be for bad driving offences. If they made a law that said you got demerits for not paying your taxes would you support that as well (btw the answer is yes because that is what you are supporting) :angry:
Spearfish
20th April 2011, 08:01
at least 10 characters.
BoristheBiter
20th April 2011, 08:09
Used to be the law that woman, maori and non land owners couldn't vote. Ever here the law is an ass? Demerits should be for bad driving offences. If they made a law that said you got demerits for not paying your taxes would you support that as well (btw the answer is yes because that is what you are supporting) :angry:
Actually you do get demerits for not paying your taxes, they are called penalty's.:blank:
you are talking about two different types of laws, one is basic human rights, the other is the right to drive on the road.
When are some of you going to realise that driving in NZ is not a right.
There should be demerits for incorrect word use, its "hear" not here.:Oops:
oneofsix
20th April 2011, 08:21
Actually you do get demerits for not paying your taxes, they are called penalty's.:blank:
you are talking about two different types of laws, one is basic human rights, the other is the right to drive on the road.
When are some of you going to realise that driving in NZ is not a right.
There should be demerits for incorrect word use, its "hear" not here.:Oops:
Demerit points and fines are both penalties it is the type of penalty applied in the correct circumstance. Let the penalty fit the crime and demerits don't fit non payment of taxes. The original higher finer was better than the lower fine plus demerits.
Who ever said driving was a right? in NZ you don't have rights, you have privileges and responsibilities. As a commuter my bike has just been registered and will be registered when on the road even though it is in the top ACC bracket but it doesn't mean I think the penalty system is correct.
Please if you insist on acting as spelling/grammar police get it right yourself, penalties is plural they don't owe anything especially not the taxes.
BoristheBiter
20th April 2011, 08:40
Demerit points and fines are both penalties it is the type of penalty applied in the correct circumstance. Let the penalty fit the crime and demerits don't fit non payment of taxes. The original higher finer was better than the lower fine plus demerits.
Who ever said driving was a right? in NZ you don't have rights, you have privileges and responsibilities. As a commuter my bike has just been registered and will be registered when on the road even though it is in the top ACC bracket but it doesn't mean I think the penalty system is correct.
Please if you insist on acting as spelling/grammar police get it right yourself, penalties is plural they don't owe anything especially not the taxes.
So what's your point?
Except for the rights or wrongs of the penalty system, which is fucked up for everything, you have just agreed with what I just said.
Big Dave
20th April 2011, 08:44
Are bikers getting just a little paranoid or developing a persecution complex?
Only on this web site.
oneofsix
20th April 2011, 08:45
So what's your point?
Except for the rights or wrongs of the penalty system, which is fucked up for everything, you have just agreed with what I just said.
My point is the wrongs of the penalty system
Horace
20th April 2011, 08:48
I am with Boris on this one tell it like it is pal Protest is our only recourse use this right while we still have it if you can not ride with us write to your MP or better still do both :angry::angry:
BoristheBiter
20th April 2011, 09:23
My point is the wrongs of the penalty system
Thats the problem isn't it. the whole system is fucked up, not just ones for road rules.
StoneY
20th April 2011, 11:59
1) Because it is the law. Why do some people think that they have a right to do things with out paying for them? or think that they are above the law?
2) It shouldn't. IMHO there should be demerits on every road infringement. It might then get people to start obeying the road rules and it might then become safer on the roads.
Take th H out mate you're anything but humble :lol:
I have no issue with fines for non registration, or riding while on hold
But demerit points on a tax collection issue is ridiculous
Demerits for running a red, sweet as.
Speeding, of course!
Failing to give way, rake it up to 50 points!
No WOF, give em the points by all means! (And WOF fines have NO demerits at this point of time)
Etc etc........
But this crap about surrendering plates, demerits for expired reg or riding while on hold, is getting over the top and is just pathetic.
Its tax enforcement, not road enforcement
Add to it, the insult to injury of the multiple vehicle owners.
1 car and 4 motorcycles in my household
2 operators
Should be paying 2x ACC levy that includes a Motorcyclists fee, and a mere admin fee on the other vehicles.
Then we would not put any on hold.....and could afford to keep em all fully licensed all year round
oneofsix
20th April 2011, 12:06
Thats the problem isn't it. the whole system is fucked up, not just ones for road rules.
and if we don't protest it will just get worse.
Also think about why they want to use demerits for not have rego, its because the cost of rego is so high that the fines alone can't keep up so they are trying to divert. Part of the divide and conquer mentality.
CookMySock
20th April 2011, 12:14
But this crap about surrendering plates, demerits for expired reg or riding while on hold, is getting over the top and is just pathetic.Yeah but in five years from now it will be normal, and they will be onto their next money-making scheme and you and other so-called biker-related politicians will off on some red-herring trip organising some ribbon-wrapped bullshit that does nothing.
Wake the fuck up man. They are not going to stop finding new ways to fleece you and I. The only way that has ever worked is for the people to say NO and stand up to them, so start organising shit that does that and forget about trying to rim your glistening tip around their pink sphincter.
Sorry if thats harsh, but its true.
BoristheBiter
20th April 2011, 12:22
Take th H out mate you're anything but humble :lol:
I have no issue with fines for non registration, or riding while on hold
But demerit points on a tax collection issue is ridiculous
Demerits for running a red, sweet as.
Speeding, of course!
Failing to give way, rake it up to 50 points!
No WOF, give em the points by all means! (And WOF fines have NO demerits at this point of time)
Etc etc........
But this crap about surrendering plates, demerits for expired reg or riding while on hold, is getting over the top and is just pathetic.
Its tax enforcement, not road enforcement
Add to it, the insult to injury of the multiple vehicle owners.
1 car and 4 motorcycles in my household
2 operators
Should be paying 2x ACC levy that includes a Motorcyclists fee, and a mere admin fee on the other vehicles.
Then we would not put any on hold.....and could afford to keep em all fully licensed all year round
Too true. :laugh: I'll take the H out.
And i can't really disagree with any of your points above.
But (i knew you were waiting for this) tax penalty's are much higher than normal ones, ask anyone thats missed a due date, and we know most that have fines just won't pay them, it goes to court and gets wiped and starts again making fools out of us that do pay it.
so maybe the fine for no rego should be getting your car impounded until you pay back rego + fine + any other outstanding fines you have.
It is the first i have heard of having to surrender plates, what about personalized plates?
Bald Eagle
20th April 2011, 12:27
:what about personalized plates?"
Be an interesting one as they are a private purchase and 'replace' the govt issued plate so are your property. Be damned if I'd splashed hundreds on a plate to surrender it to TPTB.
miloking
20th April 2011, 12:54
1) Because it is the law. Why do some people think that they have a right to do things with out paying for them? or think that they are above the law?
.
There used to be law that black people are property of white people and that women shouldnt vote!.... your stance on "its LAW and therefore we should obey" is fucked up my friend!
MSTRS
20th April 2011, 13:01
There used to be law that black people are property of white people and that women shouldnt vote!.... your stance on "its LAW and therefore we should obey" is fucked up my friend!
Yep.
Laws that are for 'the good of the people' :niceone:
Laws that are for 'the good of the system' :2guns:
Spearfish
20th April 2011, 13:01
at least 10 characters.
BoristheBiter
20th April 2011, 13:04
There used to be law that black people are property of white people and that women shouldnt vote!.... your stance on "its LAW and therefore we should obey" is fucked up my friend!
Bit late with that one numpty, oneofsix said it back on post #20.:doh:
Spearfish
20th April 2011, 13:06
at least 10 characters.
miloking
20th April 2011, 13:41
I bet you still stop for those red traffic lights on aucklands on ramps.......even when the farken things are on midday for no farken reason.
Oh i thought those are only for cars...well thats why everybody gives me evil looks as i zoom past them. Lol
StoneY
20th April 2011, 14:15
Yeah but in five years from now it will be normal, and they will be onto their next money-making scheme and you and other so-called biker-related politicians will off on some red-herring trip organising some ribbon-wrapped bullshit that does nothing.
For a start Steve I aint a fuckin politician (yet) I represent a small branch of concerned bikers that to date have fought a bloody hard battle with limited results..... but at least we do it out in the open.
Wake the fuck up man. They are not going to stop finding new ways to fleece you and I. The only way that has ever worked is for the people to say NO and stand up to them, so start organising shit that does that and forget about trying to rim your glistening tip around their pink sphincter.
I am awake, and if you try to allude to me slipping my glistenning tip around anyones fucking sphincter, you had better start running...I take offence to that statement, whether or not you're a mate.
Sorry if thats harsh, but its true.
No its not the truth, its fuckin delusional dude.....
You like to carry on about standing up to the man, do something that will make them realise we cant be fucked with....blah blah blah...well show us Steve, lead the way dude....or are you just another rabid nutter on a web forum?
Organise something yourself, lets see you do something other than rant on Kiwibiker dude...coz I sure have and you have got a long way to go to catch up with MAG or BRONZ efforts to date fellah
MSTRS
20th April 2011, 14:23
For a start Steve I aint a fuckin politician (yet) I represent a small branch of concerned bikers that to date have fought a bloody hard battle with limited results..... but at least we do it out in the open.
I am awake, and if you try to allude to me slipping my glistenning tip around anyones fucking sphincter, you had better start running...I take offence to that statement, whether or not you're a mate.
No its not the truth, its fuckin delusional dude.....
You like to carry on about standing up to the man, do something that will make them realise we cant be fucked with....blah blah blah...well show us Steve, lead the way dude....or are you just another rabid nutter on a web forum?
Organise something yourself, lets see you do something other than rant on Kiwibiker dude...coz I sure have and you have got a long way to go to catch up with MAG or BRONZ efforts to date fellah
Waste of effort, mate. DB is but a keyboard warrior, a loudmouth with no substance, all wind and piss. True revolutionaries don't sell icecream to kids.
CookMySock
20th April 2011, 14:39
For a start Steve I aint a fuckin politician (yet) I represent a small branch of concerned bikers that to date have fought a bloody hard battle with limited results..... but at least we do it out in the open.You get really good results bro. Take a look so far - I bet you have more contacts in high places now than you ever did. Sorry you don't like these words bud, but the fact is you are more interested in making sure your political future has merit with them than with us. I see through it really well mate, and the bottom line is you are never going to do anything that offends them upstairs because it will shit in your nest and root any proposition for you for the future.
So good luck with your political future ay bro, but be aware there will always be people like me around to keep it real.
Turn up any time and discuss bro - I'm your mate - remember, and friends speak up and say shit when they should, and if they do you should pay attention coz many will not - it's the people who are not your friends that don't mean shit.
Think about it.
Str8 Jacket
20th April 2011, 14:41
OK ladies, put down the icecreams!!!
Oh, I mean handbags....
StoneY
20th April 2011, 15:01
I like my handbag Helz!
It holds a brick nicely.............just for duelling with Steve
Str8 Jacket
20th April 2011, 16:02
I like my handbag Helz!
It holds a brick nicely.............just for duelling with Steve
Your handbag looks like a banjo??
Maha
20th April 2011, 16:06
Your handbag looks like a banjo??
Stoney has enough fingers to play dueling bango's.........solo.
Waxxa
20th April 2011, 16:06
What they have done:
1) Used bikers as a smokescreen to mask the introduction of risk based levies, and massive levy increases.
2) Attempted to justify the hike with misleading statistics and unjustified financial model changes.
3) Ramped up roadside 'safety' checks - in reality poorly disguised rego and WOF checks - and now the introduction of demerits for unlicensed vehicles.
What they deliberately overlook:
What we demand they do:
1) Remove the vehicle-based levies, to be replaced with a fuel-based levy collection system as a first step, ultimately returning to the Woodhouse Principles.
2) The minimum on-hold period of three months to be removed.
3) All political parties make their stance known about ACC: whether they are in favour of the no-fault Woodhouse system, if they agree with the move to full future funding, where they stand on risk-based levies and if they would agree to private insurers in the system.
There is too much on the agenda to accomplish anything here!
What is the 'fight'? ACC? then protest about that!
fines, demerit points...these measures can be put into effect at any time to 'control' our behaviour...but you will never win against these.
So, what is your protest ultimately about?
Maha
20th April 2011, 16:16
Pointless making a noise outside an ACC office/building, would have the same effect as badgering forecourt attendants because of the price of fuel...nah fuck all that shit, go straight to the top. And you wont have any luck at John Key's office, tried that once before, the cops were called (they were very nice about it all) but the office lady wouldn't even open the door. Was such a lovely day too, what a waste.
Str8 Jacket
20th April 2011, 16:23
There is too much on the agenda to accomplish anything here!
What is the 'fight'? ACC? then protest about that!
fines, demerit points...these measures can be put into effect at any time to 'control' our behaviour...but you will never win against these.
So, what is your protest ultimately about?
I agree and I asked this question (in a less roundabout kind of way) quite early on in the thread. Still waiting for a response... :wait:
bogan
20th April 2011, 16:26
There is too much on the agenda to accomplish anything here!
What is the 'fight'? ACC? then protest about that!
fines, demerit points...these measures can be put into effect at any time to 'control' our behaviour...but you will never win against these.
So, what is your protest ultimately about?
Ultimately it's about the ACC levies, the increases were unjustified, paying multiple times for multiple vehicles is bollocks, the other bits all relate back to that, why not have a go from a number of different angles? I don't think that is too much on the agenda.
There are still plenty of opportunities to try other approaches, and it certainly won't hurt to turn up to this one anyway.
StoneY
20th April 2011, 16:34
Your handbag looks like a banjo??
nah my Banjo looks like a handbag (Steve left it at my place a while back)
Stoney has enough fingers to play dueling bango's.........solo.
Dang boy, you sure got a purty mouth...................
While I support the protest, (as I do all protests against these issues) I agree with the point that its too many issue's in one event to get a solid message accross :/
Takes the focus away
Again, I say make it about the demerits, and the surrendering plates if you want any chance of wider public support
ACC's been done to death and they didnt listen to 9,500 of us in '09.... well, not like we wanted them to. They still hiked it up
Maha
20th April 2011, 17:41
ACC's been done to death and they didnt listen to 9,500 of us in '09.... well, not like we wanted them to. They still hiked it up
I for one repeated that so many times while on the MAG committee but it always feel on deaf ears. Time and effort would be much better spent on other issues, current issues? ACC levy shit is done and dusted and the laugh-o-meter on the topic is at an all time high. The T Shirts could now be changed from Whos Next to Who Cares.
Gearup
20th April 2011, 17:59
All the infighting etc would make the politicians happy.
MAG has shown some leadership, and good on them, but where to from here?
Spearfish
20th April 2011, 21:20
at least 10 characters.
Hitcher
20th April 2011, 21:29
Ultimately it's about the ACC levies, the increases were unjustified, paying multiple times for multiple vehicles is bollocks, the other bits all relate back to that, why not have a go from a number of different angles? I don't think that is too much on the agenda.
Practice your seven-second sound bite for the rare opportunity you may get to do a TV interview and you should soon understand what "too much on the agenda" means.
This is the world of Twitter. If you can't say something in 140 characters it can't be said.
BoristheBiter
21st April 2011, 07:19
Practice your seven-second sound bite for the rare opportunity you may get to do a TV interview and you should soon understand what "too much on the agenda" means.
This is the world of Twitter. If you can't say something in 140 characters it can't be said.
That's a lot of emoticons.
:wavey::scooter::scooter::scooter::chase::mad::cla p::clap::scooter::drinkup:
flyingcrocodile46
21st April 2011, 23:32
Are bikers getting just a little paranoid or developing a persecution complex?
Are bikers inadvertently aligning themselves with the lesser socially responsible element of NZ road users?
That's how I see it. The approach being promoted (as presented in the announcement) doesn't engender support. It gives the appearance that supporters are a bunch of whiney arses that can't present a credible argument to justify all the pouting. Stoney was right when he inferred that the waters are muddied when tackling too many issues at once.
There is only one aspect of the debate that I see as worthy of my time and effort to protest (for a multitude of reasons) and that is the grossly unfair double,triple/quadruple dipping by way of applying levies on multiple vehicles (bikes or cars).
If potential supporters disagree with one or more of many issues that are promoted as being protested then they are unlikely to provide support by attending the one or two issues that actually warrant all the fuss.
User pays, higher risk = higher premium. No point in crying about it. HTFU
My 2 cents.
Hitcher
22nd April 2011, 20:54
"Protest rides" have been done to death too. For many they're just another poker run. Get a patch, go to the pub and have a beer.
Muppet
22nd April 2011, 21:54
I don't mind demerits for rego, because I'm sick of the crims who drive without rego's. They don't pay fines so they need a pro-active response ie: no reg you get demerits; 100 demerits you lose your licence; drive without a licence you get forbiiden to do so; drive while forbidden you lose your car-simple. What I don't agree with is demerits for rego when traffic light offences carry none! Stop and Give Way sign offenes have 20 demerit points. Even not displaying an "L" plate gets you 25, 5 more than a mobile phone ticket.:facepalm:
skid
23rd April 2011, 08:50
Forget the 3 month on hold period, continuous licencing has to go full stop. It's unfair and has no justification what so ever.
If I choose not to take my bike on the road for a period I should not have to pay the reg as I am not using it on the road.
Pixie
23rd April 2011, 09:22
When are some of you going to realise that driving in NZ is not a right.
As in most countries that derive their laws from English law,every New Zealander has the right to use the Queen's highway,unimpeded.
Pixie
23rd April 2011, 09:27
That's how I see it. The approach being promoted (as presented in the announcement) doesn't engender support. It gives the appearance that supporters are a bunch of whiney arses that can't present a credible argument to justify all the pouting. Stoney was right when he inferred that the waters are muddied when tackling too many issues at once.
There is only one aspect of the debate that I see as worthy of my time and effort to protest (for a multitude of reasons) and that is the grossly unfair double,triple/quadruple dipping by way of applying levies on multiple vehicles (bikes or cars).
If potential supporters disagree with one or more of many issues that are promoted as being protested then they are unlikely to provide support by attending the one or two issues that actually warrant all the fuss.
User pays, higher risk = higher premium. No point in crying about it. HTFU
My 2 cents.
If you want to see whiney arses,go to KB where you'll find plenty that'll give you every reason to not stand up for themselves so they can rationalise their gutless attitudes
Bald Eagle
23rd April 2011, 09:28
As in most countries that derive their laws from English law,every New Zealander has the right to use the Queen's highway,unimpeded.
.. and the Queens Highwaymen have the right to collect taxes unimpeded.
BoristheBiter
23rd April 2011, 09:52
As in most countries that derive their laws from English law,every New Zealander has the right to use the Queen's highway,unimpeded.
yep, but to drive on it is going to cost you money.
flyingcrocodile46
23rd April 2011, 09:53
If you want to see whiney arses,go to KB where you'll find plenty that'll give you every reason to not stand up for themselves so they can rationalise their gutless attitudes
Are you sure you aren't confusing them with people who have made a conscious decision that they are not sheep to be manipulated by barking dogs?
Isn't it wonderfully convenient that people who openly voice their disagreement with the stance of the ignorant, are adjudged by the ignorant as too scared to speak their mind. Not it ain't a question, it's an observation of facts. :yes:
carver
23rd April 2011, 10:08
Pizza for cat?
you noobs voted national in anyways, so there you go!
flyingcrocodile46
23rd April 2011, 10:38
Pizza for cat?
you noobs voted national in anyways, so there you go!
Not I, said the cat.
wingnutt
23rd April 2011, 16:28
While I applaud, and agree, (apart from paragraph 2) with the protest, but I think you may be going off a bit half cocked.
Its worth remembering, that you are trying to change the minds, of some hard nosed arseholes, who really don’t give two shits whether we have legitimate grievances or not. They only know that at this stage, they hold the upper hand, and as long as smith doesn’t fold, it will stay that way.
As I see it, there are two ways to bring about change.
1. Create a protest, so big, it will put their jobs on the line.
2. Cut off the currency flow.
In respect to number 1, and this protest, 3 main city protests nationwide, will do nothing to worry, or change the minds of the political, and corporate identities. Its needs to be nationwide, pulling in every provincial city, town etc.
As for number two, I have no friggin idea, some folks a lot cleverer than me might know of a way.
Now, I’m not trying to knock this protest, I think its great, but maybe a little more thought is needed?
Zamiam
23rd April 2011, 21:34
Personally I believe the politicians will continue to beat us as we allow them to divide and conquer. We need to stand together. Yes I am pissed about the cost of rego for my bike but I'm more pissed by fact that rego on my ute and van are both neatly 3 x the cost of the rego on my car even tho they are all registered as private motor vehicles. There are only two of us in my household and we can't drive/ride 4 vehicles at the same time.
We need to get all those that own multiple vehicles onto this. Those with rods, play cars such as Mustangs etc are all getting ripped off. We are getting bogged down on the amount we as bikers are paying. The amount is irrelevant. the key thing is we are all being raped by the ACC system.
BoristheBiter
23rd April 2011, 22:44
Personally I believe the politicians will continue to beat us as we allow them to divide and conquer. We need to stand together. Yes I am pissed about the cost of rego for my bike but I'm more pissed by fact that rego on my ute and van are both neatly 3 x the cost of the rego on my car even tho they are all registered as private motor vehicles. There are only two of us in my household and we can't drive/ride 4 vehicles at the same time.
We need to get all those that own multiple vehicles onto this. Those with rods, play cars such as Mustangs etc are all getting ripped off. We are getting bogged down on the amount we as bikers are paying. The amount is irrelevant. the key thing is we are all being raped by the ACC system.
Is your ute and van diesel?
jafar
24th April 2011, 16:52
Personally I believe the politicians will continue to beat us as we allow them to divide and conquer. We need to stand together. Yes I am pissed about the cost of rego for my bike but I'm more pissed by fact that rego on my ute and van are both neatly 3 x the cost of the rego on my car even tho they are all registered as private motor vehicles. There are only two of us in my household and we can't drive/ride 4 vehicles at the same time.
We need to get all those that own multiple vehicles onto this. Those with rods, play cars such as Mustangs etc are all getting ripped off. We are getting bogged down on the amount we as bikers are paying. The amount is irrelevant. the key thing is we are all being raped by the ACC system.
You are correct, we were used as a smoke screen by Nick Smith & his mates & they slipped the higher fee's for utes & vans in without opposition. Sadly the AA are not interested & the Hot rod clubs are basically toothless. I would have thought the commercial vehicle owners would have kicked up a stink, but the are factionalised & have no organisation.
The government have picked on a series of relatively small groups & nailed them quite effectively. Motorcycles,scooters, utes, vans, light trucks. all have had an increase in their Registrations due to the increases in ACC levies. The ONLY group to make some noise was the motorcyclists, the rest just bent over & accepted that they had been screwed up the arse!:shit:
What made this even better was that MOST ute & van owners didn't realise that they had been screwed over until they had to renew the registration on their vehicles. By then it was too late to do anything except cry about it:violin:
Is your ute and van diesel?
doesn't matter, the Rego is up on both & by MORE than we pay as riders. :whocares:
Zamiam
24th April 2011, 21:51
Yeah both my ute and van are diesels and yeah first I realized was when i went to reregister them. I love getting reamed by politicians and beauracrats NOT
BoristheBiter
25th April 2011, 10:40
doesn't matter, the Rego is up on both & by MORE than we pay as riders. :whocares:
Yeah both my ute and van are diesels and yeah first I realized was when i went to reregister them. I love getting reamed by politicians and beauracrats NOT
Because you pay no ACC on diesel that is why the cost of rego is higher as i guess you well know.
So i guess you are happier to have higher diesel prices but lower rego.
jafar
25th April 2011, 13:32
Because you pay no ACC on diesel that is why the cost of rego is higher as i guess you well know.
So i guess you are happier to have higher diesel prices but lower rego.
WRONG:facepalm:
Diesel is a lower price because there is no ROAD USER CHARGES built into it .
This is why DIESEL powered vehicles have to buy RUC's as well as their registration :blink:
Spearfish
25th April 2011, 13:38
Don't all go rushing out and buying a 40yr old bike, don't want them looking at those to!
MSTRS
25th April 2011, 14:24
WRONG:facepalm:
Diesel is a lower price because there is no ROAD USER CHARGES built into it .
This is why DIESEL powered vehicles have to buy RUC's as well as their registration :blink:
Sorry mate - he's right.
Petrol has 9.9c/l ACC at the pump. None on diesel...
jafar
25th April 2011, 15:37
Sorry mate - he's right.
Petrol has 9.9c/l ACC at the pump. None on diesel...
Well I learnt something today then, I was under the impression that it was only RUC that was not paid. :blink:
Spearfish
25th April 2011, 17:52
You miss the ACC if you fuel your diesel boat, but don't if you make your own diesel for your van or ute.
probably kills the idea of a diesel commuter bike to.
BoristheBiter
25th April 2011, 18:04
Well I learnt something today then, I was under the impression that it was only RUC that was not paid. :blink:
It has to do with diggers and the like not being used on the road and because most of them are diesel it was classed as too unfair to charge them to be on the road and too costly to do refunds.
Zamiam
25th April 2011, 21:28
Because you pay no ACC on diesel that is why the cost of rego is higher as i guess you well know.
So i guess you are happier to have higher diesel prices but lower rego.
Didn't know that about no ACC in Diesel but if you do a relative comparison diesel has gone up much more in dollar terms than petrol so where is all the extra money going?
MSTRS
26th April 2011, 08:39
Um - the fuel companies?
kiwijimbo
26th April 2011, 19:30
i agree with the acc rates protest but why the hell have it on a workday when the majority of blokes & chics are working ????
kiwijimbo
26th April 2011, 19:35
I hope you get a number in the double-figures turning out, but I doubt it. Perhaps you would have more luck protesting at a time that people who aren't uni students, shift workers or unemployed can attend.
i couldnt agree more
Gearup
27th April 2011, 09:37
Typical MAG-NZ, good intention but real bad organising.
StoneY
27th April 2011, 10:35
Typical MAG-NZ, good intention but real bad organising.
Thats not a very fair comment matey
As one well experienced in organising motorcycle protest events I must say its a bit harsh to put it like that
I do however agree that the timing is not very well thought out (all due respect to me friends in MAG)
For a mid week event to go off you need a couple of months to organise and publicise, (flier drops, radio plugs, pre-protest media releases, TV time where you can get it etc etc....) and get the other like minded organisations involved as well, approach HOG, Ulysses, WIMA etc, (the National Forum of Motorcycle clubs would be a great start.)
My suggestion to all the organisers is hold off till a free weekend (eg no big sport events on) and get permission from the Speaker of the House to hold an event at Parliament, have coordinated regional events on (or close to) the same day for those outside the capital
Took well over 2 months to get the BIKEOI planned and that was an exceptional event, I dont think we will ever see those numbers again.
I still say to focus on one factor, and not such a wide spectrum, it loses its impact (I found that out in Febuary last year when 360 bikers came, and only 80 odd unionists for the UNION protest)
Maha
27th April 2011, 13:25
i agree with the acc rates protest but why the hell have it on a workday when the majority of blokes & chics are working ????
Maximum exposure.
I know there were a number of people who wanted the Bikio of 09' to happen on a weekend, but why?...nobody around at the Beehive over the weekend.
It comes down to, if people are still concerned, they will turn up not matter when.
Furyos J
27th April 2011, 13:40
well i will be at the wellington protest, self employed, so it is my duty to make time to protest. Also as i am hit three times, my commuter bike, my work ute to take materials to site (i use the bike when not transporting materials etc), and my weekend street machine (altho that is over 40yrs old, so only $120 per year). Im pretty shure i cant use all three at the same time
Luckylegs
27th April 2011, 14:03
Ok so where do i find the details of the auckland ride ?
StoneY
27th April 2011, 14:30
well i will be at the wellington protest, self employed, so it is my duty to make time to protest. Also as i am hit three times, my commuter bike, my work ute to take materials to site (i use the bike when not transporting materials etc), and my weekend street machine (altho that is over 40yrs old, so only $120 per year). Im pretty shure i cant use all three at the same time
My household has 4 bikes and one car, I agree cant use all at once but...if 9,500 attending Parliament couldnt get them to back off, what will?
Fatt Max
27th April 2011, 15:28
My household has 4 bikes and one car, I agree cant use all at once but...if 9,500 attending Parliament couldnt get them to back off, what will?
I could play on the steps of the Beehive again....but nude this time...???
Oblivion
27th April 2011, 15:33
My household has 4 bikes and one car, I agree cant use all at once but...if 9,500 attending Parliament couldnt get them to back off, what will?
Our family pays for 4 cars, and my bike. I don't want to imagine what the cost would be if we payed it all at once.
red mermaid
27th April 2011, 15:39
Google is your friend.
This link gives tax rates on fuels in NZ, as at 1 Oct 2010.
http://www.med.govt.nz/templates/Page____12961.aspx
StoneY
27th April 2011, 15:48
I could play on the steps of the Beehive again....but nude this time...???
now THAT would definitely get some attention...what about the nurses outfit mate?
Oblivion
27th April 2011, 15:49
Google is your friend.
This link gives tax rates on fuels in NZ, as at 1 Oct 2010.
http://www.med.govt.nz/templates/Page____12961.aspx
Good god :blink:
60c a litre on tax :shit:
Katman
27th April 2011, 18:18
I could play on the steps of the Beehive again....but nude this time...???
I'd rather see you do it on a real beehive........naked.
Voltaire
27th April 2011, 19:16
I wonder if my insurance company might give me a better rate on two bikes and a car if I said I would only use one at a time....:innocent:
MAG-NZ Inc
27th April 2011, 19:18
Meet @ 12:15 for a 12:30 departure 5th May Auckland Viaduct Carpark, (behind the big boat). Ride to ACC Office (Sale st) then to the local National Party electorate office (College Hill), they are close enough that this can be done in a longish lunchtime.
Details for welli being finalised and should be up within a few days.
StoneY
28th April 2011, 08:34
I wonder if my insurance company might give me a better rate on two bikes and a car if I said I would only use one at a time....:innocent:
Mine does mate
I have one single policy, covers all 3 of my bikes
They wouldnt do one that covered the car and partners bike tho, all 3 vehicles needed be the same type, and same singular owner to pull it off
oneofsix
28th April 2011, 08:38
I'd rather see you do it on a real beehive........naked.
:sick: you want to see him naked and you are into watching others in pain. :sick:
Ok I'm twisting your meaning but this is KB :shutup:
BoristheBiter
28th April 2011, 08:41
Mine does mate
I have one single policy, covers all 3 of my bikes
They wouldnt do one that covered the car and partners bike tho, all 3 vehicles needed be the same type, and same singular owner to pull it off
We are with Star, both bikes are in different names but both are on the same policy. good for the track to.
StoneY
28th April 2011, 08:44
We are with Star, both bikes are in different names but both are on the same policy. good for the track to.
Kiwibike for me underwritten by Star
93.00 per month to cover the Ducati St4, KTM Super Duke, and GSXR1100 with roadside rescue and full gear replacement
KTM middle of a claim now, has been very painless to deal with them at both Kiwibike and Star, new rim somewhere between Austria and NZ at this point
BoristheBiter
28th April 2011, 08:49
Kiwibike for me underwritten by Star
93.00 per month to cover the Ducati St4, KTM Super Duke, and GSXR1100 with roadside rescue and full gear replacement
KTM middle of a claim now, has been very painless to deal with them at both Kiwibike and Star, new rim somewhere between Austria and NZ at this point
About the same here, mine is a little higher due to a wee ticket. we changed after my last off, state was good with the bike but only second hand value for gear (fuckers).
I would have thought if it is under written by star you would think that you could get them all on one policy like ours.
StoneY
28th April 2011, 08:59
I would have thought if it is under written by star you would think that you could get them all on one policy like ours.
Nope they wont add the car and Kelly's 250 to my policy. But I am happy, 3 bikes on one policy is enough of a saving.........
Was 84.00 pm for the cheapest policy I had with 3 seperate ones, so 93 for all 3 bikes is a huge boon
Brian407
28th April 2011, 14:00
I agree in principle to the demerit points component to this but the rest of it is crap. If they are going to continue with the risk based model then it has to be a better on than they currently have. Below is an email which has been sent to all major news agencies in this country (not that I expect that any of them will run with it, they dont have the balls) which points toward some of the growing frustration I hear on a daily basis.
I would be happy to organise a protest run in Invercargill, but my bike is on hold (and not being used) and i just got made redundant so not really of a mind to collect a fine right now. Still happy to organise it though, just not with my bike.
"Dear Sir
Perhaps you could consider a story on the ongoing and increasing rort of motor vehicle owners in this country. I draw the distinction between motorists and motor vehicle owners because there are many motorists who dont own a motor vehicle, and therefore dont pay Rego or ACC levies. Apparently non owners are not a risk and dont need to be levied. In my household there are three motorists, but only one motor vehicle owner. I have a car, a 4wd and two motorcycles (one being restored) and i pay registration and ACC on all three of them. I can only drive one at a time so why the hell am I penalised for having more than one. My wife and daughter both drive my vehicles yet dont pay any ACC levies for the risk they represent while driving. I ask, Is that fair??
Should the ACC levy not be attached to the driver licence class. A class 1 licence should have the lowest fee due to the lowest risk, and, according to ACC's flawed logic, a class 6 licence should have the highest fee due to the higher risk. This would ensure that ALL motorists pay the approriate levy associated with their risk and the motor vehicle owner would be alleviated of the excessive and unfair burdon of double, tripple and sometimes mutiple dipping from ACC. This would likely increase ACC revenue as more people would be levied.
This has to be sorted out once and for all with a fair and equitable system introduced before the New Zealand vehicle owning public start wide spread civil disobedience and tell NZTA and ACC to get stuffed.
Regards
Brian Walker"
Street Hawk
28th April 2011, 14:02
have we got a petition going, I haven't met a single person riders and drivers alike who agree with the hikes, recon we should be turning up with names of supporters aswell :yes:
Gearup
28th April 2011, 15:23
Thats not a very fair comment matey
As one well experienced in organising motorcycle protest events I must say its a bit harsh to put it like that
I do however agree that the timing is not very well thought out (all due respect to me friends in MAG)
For a mid week event to go off you need a couple of months to organise and publicise, (flier drops, radio plugs, pre-protest media releases, TV time where you can get it etc etc....) and get the other like minded organisations involved as well, approach HOG, Ulysses, WIMA etc, (the National Forum of Motorcycle clubs would be a great start.)
My suggestion to all the organisers is hold off till a free weekend (eg no big sport events on) and get permission from the Speaker of the House to hold an event at Parliament, have coordinated regional events on (or close to) the same day for those outside the capital
Took well over 2 months to get the BIKEOI planned and that was an exceptional event, I dont think we will ever see those numbers again.
I still say to focus on one factor, and not such a wide spectrum, it loses its impact (I found that out in Febuary last year when 360 bikers came, and only 80 odd unionists for the UNION protest)
I'm not one to drop a comment in (unless in fun) without being able to back it up.
While you say my comment was harsh, you do agree on the timing not being well thought out and to focus on one factor.
Organisation is made up of 5 key elements/characteristics and is a bit like project management ie: Scope, budget and time but with the added human factors.
It seems to me that all the boxes weren't ticked prior to posting the thread by MAG.
For example, How long ago was this one planned?
bogan
28th April 2011, 15:36
Funnily enough, there isn't a 'magic bullet' single event that will fix the levies (if there was going to be I think the bikoi would have done it). So why not have a shot at a few different ideas? you could say MAG-NZ has a full clip :laugh: Some of the ideas/concerns put forward in this thread are certainly worth considering, and may be applied in future events; also if you want to lead a future event log on to our forums and make it happen.
MSTRS
28th April 2011, 15:40
I agree in principle to the demerit points component to this but the rest of it is crap. If they are going to continue with the risk based model then it has to be a better on than they currently have.
Risk based has to go...it's bullshit.
How many thousands are there out there driving/riding, who haven't had a crash or injury for years, if ever? I'm one of them, with 38 years under my belt. What sort of 'heightened risk' do I pose?
Below is an email which has been sent to all major news agencies in this country (not that I expect that any of them will run with it, they dont have the balls) which points toward some of the growing frustration I hear on a daily basis.
You're right....they won't.
I can only drive one at a time so why the hell am I penalised for having more than one. My wife and daughter both drive my vehicles yet dont pay any ACC levies for the risk they represent while driving. I ask, Is that fair??
I don't entirely disagree, but your reasoning is flawed.
The cover attaches to the vehicle, so anyone driving it is covered. You just happen to be the one paying for it. They'd be covered even if the rego was lapsed.
Should the ACC levy not be attached to the driver licence class. A class 1 licence should have the lowest fee due to the lowest risk, and, according to ACC's flawed logic, a class 6 licence should have the highest fee due to the higher risk. This would ensure that ALL motorists pay the approriate levy associated with their risk and the motor vehicle owner would be alleviated of the excessive and unfair burdon of double, tripple and sometimes mutiple dipping from ACC. This would likely increase ACC revenue as more people would be levied.
Faulty reasoning/logic there too, I'm afraid to say.
Would you want to pay (say) $500 for a yearly endorsement on your licence if you only ever drove 100kms a week? Whilst your neighbour is always on the road, does 50,000kms annually, and pays the same $500 as you? No different to now, really, as far as fair is concerned.
What about if you have a class 6, have had it for years, but no longer have a bike? If it's even possible to have an individual class removed from your licence, what if you want to keep it cos you're thinking it'd be nice to have another bike in a year or two? You don't want to go through the entire BHS, L, R + F thing again, do you?
Another problem - the bit I've bolded. How many people do you know who own multiple vehicles, yet are the sole users? I'd take a bet that there's thousands. Levies are basically set by ACC taking the yearly $ requirement and dividing it by the number of vehicles to be rego'd. So ACC would miss out on $300+ on every one of them. Since there'd by more vehicles than there are licenced users, shifting the pool of vehicle-based levies to licences would mean a huge increase across the board, hitting single vehicle owners especially badly.
I don't think so.
This has to be sorted out once and for all with a fair and equitable system introduced before the New Zealand vehicle owning public start wide spread civil disobedience and tell NZTA and ACC to get stuffed.
Absolutely!
Psst!! Put the levies on fuel.
Little Miss Trouble
28th April 2011, 15:49
I agree in principle to the demerit points component to this but the rest of it is crap. If they are going to continue with the risk based model then it has to be a better on than they currently have. Below is an email which has been sent to all major news agencies in this country (not that I expect that any of them will run with it, they dont have the balls) which points toward some of the growing frustration I hear on a daily basis.
I would be happy to organise a protest run in Invercargill, but my bike is on hold (and not being used) and i just got made redundant so not really of a mind to collect a fine right now. Still happy to organise it though, just not with my bike.
"Dear Sir
Perhaps you could consider a story on the ongoing and increasing rort of motor vehicle owners in this country. I draw the distinction between motorists and motor vehicle owners because there are many motorists who dont own a motor vehicle, and therefore dont pay Rego or ACC levies. Apparently non owners are not a risk and dont need to be levied. In my household there are three motorists, but only one motor vehicle owner. I have a car, a 4wd and two motorcycles (one being restored) and i pay registration and ACC on all three of them. I can only drive one at a time so why the hell am I penalised for having more than one. My wife and daughter both drive my vehicles yet dont pay any ACC levies for the risk they represent while driving. I ask, Is that fair??
Should the ACC levy not be attached to the driver licence class. A class 1 licence should have the lowest fee due to the lowest risk, and, according to ACC's flawed logic, a class 6 licence should have the highest fee due to the higher risk. This would ensure that ALL motorists pay the approriate levy associated with their risk and the motor vehicle owner would be alleviated of the excessive and unfair burdon of double, tripple and sometimes mutiple dipping from ACC. This would likely increase ACC revenue as more people would be levied.
This has to be sorted out once and for all with a fair and equitable system introduced before the New Zealand vehicle owning public start wide spread civil disobedience and tell NZTA and ACC to get stuffed.
Regards
Brian Walker"
How is that fair or equitable? I'm still paying a levy for both car and bike, when I can still only use one at a time AND I am still being unfairly discriminated against for choosing a mode of transport that differs from the 'norm.'
What you are suggesting still differs from the Woodhouse principles that ACC was founded on, one equal fee per user for communal cover.
MSTRS
28th April 2011, 16:00
What you are suggesting still differs from the Woodhouse principles that ACC was founded on, one equal fee per user for communal cover.
As soon as a govt of the past introduced variable levies based on actual cost (in the workplace, say) the Woodhouse Principle/s were compromised.
Woodhouse proposed that everything we do carries some sort of variable risk, that some individuals would be a higher risk than others doing the same job/activity...but overall, society benefited in ways that offset any increase in costs for specific activities. Therefore - one fee fits all, for the benefit of all.
Katman
28th April 2011, 16:05
Woodhouse proposed that everything we do carries some sort of variable risk, that some individuals would be a higher risk than others doing the same job/activity...but overall, society benefited in ways that offset any increase in costs for specific activities. Therefore - one fee fits all, for the benefit of all.
As said before John, that sort of enlightened thinking worked well in an age gone by - when we were more inclined to consider the welfare of others.
It doesn't work in today's dog eat dog world where no-one seems to give a fuck how their actions affect others.
MSTRS
28th April 2011, 16:13
As said before John, that sort of enlightened thinking worked well in an age gone by - when we were more inclined to consider the welfare of others.
It doesn't work in today's dog eat dog world where no-one seems to give a fuck how their actions affect others.
True. There does seem to be a lot more selfish types out there. But at the same time, what's the difference to as it was? Individuals who were injured in the course of whatever were covered and the collective whole paid an equal share of the costs. All that's happened is areas of increased cost attract a higher levy. How fair is that on the majority who partake in such an area without becoming a cost to it?
Where does one draw the line in breaking down the so-called risk within any activity?
oneofsix
28th April 2011, 16:20
As said before John, that sort of enlightened thinking worked well in an age gone by - when we were more inclined to consider the welfare of others.
It doesn't work in today's dog eat dog world where no-one seems to give a fuck how their actions affect others.
aren't we meant to be trying to achieve enlightenment? Therefore shouldn't we protest when selfishness takes the country in the wrong direction? Or should we just standby, watch it happen and shake our heads in sorrow?
Katman
28th April 2011, 16:29
aren't we meant to be trying to achieve enlightenment?
Hey, I'm doing my bit. :eek:
MSTRS
28th April 2011, 16:45
Hey, I'm doing my bit. :eek:
Aren't we all...
Getting back to my last comment. Take the entire fleet of motorcycles, and just pretend for a minute that there are more Suzukis than any other brand. It stands to reason that there will be more Suzukis in the accident stats, right? So ACC increase the levy on Suzukis. Sounding familiar?
Or maybe every idiot out on a bike just happen to be attracted to and ride KTMs, so there is a very high crash rate for KTMs. Up go the levies just on that brand.
Ludicrous? Maybe. But it's the logical extension of what has already been set in motion re risk rating.
Katman
28th April 2011, 16:48
Ludicrous? Maybe. But it's the logical extension of what has already been set in motion re risk rating.
That is why the only sensible risk-rating (if we were to go down that path) is on the individual.
MSTRS
28th April 2011, 17:00
That is why the only sensible risk-rating (if we were to go down that path) is on the individual.
Could only be managed by going to licence based levies. The huge inequities that would come from that don't bear thinking about...
wharfy
28th April 2011, 20:51
The whole point of National fucking with the ACC is to set it up for privatization.
They are shifting it to an insurance model. They will not take any notice of anything anyone does while they still have the numbers in parliament.
This needs to be an election issue.
I'm keen to protest, it won't change this governments mind, the best I can hope for is that some voters will notice. It's a pretty forlorn hope though, most voters have no fucking clue what the policies are and vote for the leader of the party if he looks OK on TV and can "neck a stynie round the barbie" with prince fucking William. :facepalm:
bogan
28th April 2011, 21:01
The whole point of National fucking with the ACC is to set it up for privatization.
They are shifting it to an insurance model. They will not take any notice of anything anyone does while they still have the numbers in parliament.
This needs to be an election issue.
I'm keen to protest, it won't change this governments mind, the best I can hope for is that some voters will notice. It's a pretty forlorn hope though, most voters have no fucking clue what the policies are and vote for the leader of the party if he looks OK on TV and can "neck a stynie round the barbie" with prince fucking William. :facepalm:
You may be right, we tried sending out a press thingumy to get some attention along those line, musta sent it to over 20 addresses, not a single reply. The union protest had a shit turnout, seems fuck all people will care until after the fact, at which point those in parliament (leadership or opposition) probably won't care :facepalm:
But there is most certainly still a core of bikers who care, so do what we can, when we can, and at the very least we will get noticed. And any time spent on two wheels is a good time anyway :woohoo:
Spearfish
28th April 2011, 21:24
I think the only way ACC will be based on an individuals risk is if ACC is either partly or wholly privatised or opened up to competition. (probably not ideal)
The problem then is are the small number in high risk sector going to be paying enough to cover the damage they are responsible for?
The bit that annoys me is a car can rear end me at the lights and break my leg along with a few plastic panels, my vet bill comes out of the ACC bike fund not the ACC car fund but my damaged plastic would be covered by my insurance taking money from the cars insurance company.
I cringe at privatisation but can also see the benefits...
Bring on 2016
swbarnett
28th April 2011, 23:19
That is why the only sensible risk-rating (if we were to go down that path) is on the individual.
The only sensible risk-rating for the good of all is to not have any. Spread the cost to EVERY member of society in an equitable manner and take it from income tax. Only then will we start to achieve a caring, community based society.
StoneY
29th April 2011, 08:43
Aren't we all...
Or maybe every idiot out on a bike just happen to be attracted to and ride KTMs, so there is a very high crash rate for KTMs. Up go the levies just on that brand.
Ludicrous? Maybe. But it's the logical extension of what has already been set in motion re risk rating.
Hey is it a coincidence that I own a KTM and it is in the shop awaiting an insurance claim repair??? Was it the KTMs fault that rock was on the road at River road roadworks site???
Ironic really... especially considering my consultancy role.... (and I get where you come from John and completely agree with you)
Funny enough, the only ACC claim I have made in...30 years???? is in relation to a broken wrist I achieved falling down the stairs at an office party, Christmas 2008...... (still goes click click too I must be old)
Bald Eagle
29th April 2011, 09:02
Should be an exceptional risk rating levy for office parties , they can be really bad for your health. :drinkup:
Luckylegs
29th April 2011, 09:20
Should be an exceptional risk rating levy for office parties , they can be really bad for your health. :drinkup:
...And more importantly, Reputation ! :o:innocent:
oneofsix
29th April 2011, 09:27
The only sensible risk-rating for the good of all is to not have any. Spread the cost to EVERY member of society in an equitable manner and take it from income tax. Only then will we start to achieve a caring, community based society.
Seem people are so self centered and willing to point fingers that they don't see the forest for the trees. This risk takers talk is part of it. Is a forestry worker a risk taker? yes in this sense. Is a guy doing wheelies a risk taker? yes but of a different sort and again it depends if he is doing the wheelies in s controlled environment as part of a stunt demo then he is like the forestry worker and contributing to society as a whole. Is the rugby player a risk taker? yes so does this mean we are covering the overseas teams during the world cup?
Risk based then why no massive levies on horse float regos? Horse riders are the biggest claimers of the lot and most of them are taking the risk for their own selfish enjoyment.
MSTRS
29th April 2011, 09:38
If you get right down to it, beds are the worst of the lot. I mean, there's countless back injuries suffered through use of them. And they are the single biggest factor in most deaths.
:innocent:
StoneY
29th April 2011, 10:00
...And more importantly, Reputation ! :o:innocent:
Have to have one of those before you can dent it ....... LOL
Gearup
29th April 2011, 12:19
Funnily enough, there isn't a 'magic bullet' single event that will fix the levies (if there was going to be I think the bikoi would have done it). So why not have a shot at a few different ideas? you could say MAG-NZ has a full clip :laugh: Some of the ideas/concerns put forward in this thread are certainly worth considering, and may be applied in future events; also if you want to lead a future event log on to our forums and make it happen.
How about this B man?
Why don't MAG get a national campaign going and get all other pissed off ACC payers involved then have a massive protest action and shut the country down just like the unions do.
This ACC and bikers crap has been going on since 1978.
MSTRS
29th April 2011, 12:32
Why don't MAG get a national campaign going and get all other pissed off ACC payers involved then have a massive protest action and shut the country down just like the unions do.
Nice idea. Tell us how to achieve it.
It's been tried and tried. For some reason, only bikers seem willing to get off their arses and protest en masse. No-one else seems interested, except a bit of a moan from time to time in casual conversation.
Bald Eagle
29th April 2011, 12:36
I seem to remember a time when the union movement could bring the country to it's knees ( usually during the holidays ). Apathy has taken their place and is thriving.
Katman
29th April 2011, 12:39
I seem to remember a time when the union movement could bring the country to it's knees ( usually during the holidays ). Apathy has taken their place and is thriving.
And just remember how reviled unions were back then.
StoneY
29th April 2011, 13:26
How about this B man?
Why don't MAG get a national campaign going and get all other pissed off ACC payers involved then have a massive protest action and shut the country down just like the unions do.
Fuck dude do you know we spent 2 months planning a 'massive march on Parliament' in Feb 2010???, and you know what?
80 union members showed up....a whole 80...and that was with support from CTU and ACC Futures Coalition...
Nice idea but they didnt show up last time we tried what makes you think they will now?
Bring the country to its knee's my ass....... as BE says Apathy has taken the place of passion in NZ and we shot our load in Nov 09 it seems
BoristheBiter
29th April 2011, 14:22
Nice idea but they didnt show up last time we tried what makes you think they will now?
Tell them there will be be free booze and pies.
MSTRS
29th April 2011, 14:27
Tell them there will be be free booze and pies.
We are not politicians, maniplulating others by way of lies and false pretenses...
BoristheBiter
29th April 2011, 14:34
We are not politicians, maniplulating others by way of lies and false pretenses...
And that is why it is doomed to fail.
MSTRS
29th April 2011, 14:40
Sadly, I suspect you are right. Honesty, integrity, and scrupulous fairness are not highly prized commodities these days.
Gearup
29th April 2011, 14:57
Fuck dude do you know we spent 2 months planning a 'massive march on Parliament' in Feb 2010???, and you know what?
80 union members showed up....a whole 80...and that was with support from CTU and ACC Futures Coalition...
Nice idea but they didnt show up last time we tried what makes you think they will now?
Bring the country to its knee's my ass....... as BE says Apathy has taken the place of passion in NZ and we shot our load in Nov 09 it seems
Tell me why it was that protests by those opposed to the mining of conservation land worked.
Kiwis aren't appathtic, they're just not organised.
Get your marketing people on to it if you've got them.
Bald Eagle
29th April 2011, 15:04
There was a protest about mining conservation land ??????????????? when did that happen :facepalm:
oneofsix
29th April 2011, 15:13
There was a protest about mining conservation land ??????????????? when did that happen :facepalm:
What you don't remember Brownlea wanting to open up schedule 4 conservation land to mining?
Gearup
29th April 2011, 15:15
There was a protest about mining conservation land ??????????????? when did that happen :facepalm:
Hello McFly.... It was all over the media. You must have been out of your mind at the time.
Anyway, I said MAG should be involving pissed off ACC payers and get them to act LIKE the unions not get the unions involved but if they're keen then ok.
Bald Eagle
29th April 2011, 15:18
Who :devil2:
Gearup
29th April 2011, 15:23
Who :devil2:
Keep up with the play.
chasio
29th April 2011, 17:03
Tell me why it was that protests by those opposed to the mining of conservation land worked.
Kiwis aren't appathtic, they're just not organised.
Get your marketing people on to it if you've got them.
Spot the difference:
- emotive issue for a small number of people (for now) largely ignored by the press: ACC
- emotive issue for a huge number of people stoked up by the press: mining on DoC land
There's your answer. No marketing we can afford is going to motivate 30,000 people to walk down Queen Street over ACC. If you have a cunning plan for a viral approach not suitable for a public forum, please contact MAG-NZ!
Of course, when the deal is done and we kiss ACC goodbye, maybe we could find enough motivated people. But by then it will be too late.
That is not to say there is nothing we can do and smaller (guerilla?) action can be a thorn in National's side and might keep them form charging headlong along their chosen path (or so I can hope). But mass public action is not in our grasp and the pollies will be very careful not to do anything that might get Bikoi numbers going again. Expect gradual chipping away, like at diesels and work trucks.
Who's next?
Mom
29th April 2011, 18:09
Nice idea. Tell us how to achieve it.
It's been tried and tried. For some reason, only bikers seem willing to get off their arses and protest en masse. No-one else seems interested, except a bit of a moan from time to time in casual conversation.
There were several thousand cyclists prepared to join forces with MAG, opportunity lost yet again.
Mom
29th April 2011, 18:12
Anyway, I said MAG should be involving pissed off ACC payers and get them to act LIKE the unions not get the unions involved but if they're keen then ok.
How about you get involved? How many times do smart ideas get talked about in the context someoen else should DO IT! FFS! Get involved, dont sit back telling others what they should do and how to do it. No fucking wonder things never get done. The ones that do all the work get pissed off with the talkers, the talkers do nothing.
oneofsix
29th April 2011, 18:27
How about you get involved? How many times do smart ideas get talked about in the context someoen else should DO IT! FFS! Get involved, dont sit back telling others what they should do and how to do it. No fucking wonder things never get done. The ones that do all the work get pissed off with the talkers, the talkers do nothing.
+1 but you forgot the naysayers and the doom and gloom brigade. I m not an organiser, which I recognise but I can and will ride in support and support those that do organise.
Mom
29th April 2011, 18:30
+1 but you forgot the naysayers and the doom and gloom brigade. I m not an organiser, which I recognise but I can and will ride in support and support those that do organise.
Which is commendable indeed, but I ask you how can anyone support this protest ride? Why would you target an ACC office anyway? The staff there are simply employees.
I work in Albany now, but my lunch break does not allow for a 2 hour trip away on my bike. This one will be a fail BIG TIME!
Oblivion
29th April 2011, 18:35
Which is commendable indeed, but I ask you how can anyone support this protest ride? Why would you target an ACC office anyway? The staff there are simply employees.
I work in Albany now, but my lunch break does not allow for a 2 hour trip away on my bike. This one will be a fail BIG TIME!
Just take a loooong...eh....Toilet break. You can fit through the windows can't you? :blink:
nosebleed
29th April 2011, 18:38
There were several thousand cyclists prepared to join forces with MAG, opportunity lost yet again.
Who? When? Where? Damn, I missed the post advising us of this opportunity.
MAG-NZ Inc
29th April 2011, 19:07
Due to lack of interest and unforeseen unavailability of some key organisers, the event is canned. This doesn't mean we are letting this crap slide, but we will not undertake protest action without significant numbers. Thanks and apologies to those who were planning to support this action, no doubt we will find other things for you to do in future!
oneofsix
29th April 2011, 19:15
Due to lack of interest and unforeseen unavailability of some key organisers, the event is canned. This doesn't mean we are letting this crap slide, but we will not undertake protest action without significant numbers. Thanks and apologies to those who were planning to support this action, no doubt we will find other things for you to do in future!
:crybaby::crybaby::crybaby::crybaby::bye:
Fatt Max
29th April 2011, 20:10
Due to lack of interest and unforeseen unavailability of some key organisers, the event is canned. This doesn't mean we are letting this crap slide, but we will not undertake protest action without significant numbers. Thanks and apologies to those who were planning to support this action, no doubt we will find other things for you to do in future!
Dont apologise for trying to do something guys, you should be at the very least applauded for making an effort. Keep on keeping on I say and fecking good luck to you.
Maha
29th April 2011, 20:14
Perhaps try something with the ''Riders Are Voters''...something new/something that will bring alive the mongrel that once was. Its not difficult...:corn:
It is an Election year after all.
Mom
29th April 2011, 20:37
Just take a loooong...eh....Toilet break. You can fit through the windows can't you? :blink:
There is no way I would "sneak" out of work, I owe my employers far better loyalty than that.
Seems this is a no issue anyway, MAG have canned the protest due to lack of support.
Gearup
29th April 2011, 20:48
How about you get involved? How many times do smart ideas get talked about in the context someoen else should DO IT! FFS! Get involved, dont sit back telling others what they should do and how to do it. No fucking wonder things never get done. The ones that do all the work get pissed off with the talkers, the talkers do nothing.
So why does MAG promote itself as the Motorcycle Action Group then?
I was asked to give some ideas (Talking) which is better than slagging off. That equates to doing nothing as far as I'm concerned.
Gearup
29th April 2011, 21:14
Spot the difference:
- emotive issue for a small number of people (for now) largely ignored by the press: ACC
- emotive issue for a huge number of people stoked up by the press: mining on DoC land
There's your answer. No marketing we can afford is going to motivate 30,000 people to walk down Queen Street over ACC. If you have a cunning plan for a viral approach not suitable for a public forum, please contact MAG-NZ!
Of course, when the deal is done and we kiss ACC goodbye, maybe we could find enough motivated people. But by then it will be too late.
That is not to say there is nothing we can do and smaller (guerilla?) action can be a thorn in National's side and might keep them form charging headlong along their chosen path (or so I can hope). But mass public action is not in our grasp and the pollies will be very careful not to do anything that might get Bikoi numbers going again. Expect gradual chipping away, like at diesels and work trucks.
Who's next?
Sure, there was a bit of emotion involved but from what I gathered people just didn't want the bastards to get away with it.
chasio
29th April 2011, 21:32
...people just didn't want the bastards to get away with it.
I have to agree with you there. And the thing with the emotion was that it was strong enough to get people off their arses and out on the streets.
It's disappointing but given the feedback and the situation for this run, putting it off and re-planning something else makes sense. Try, try again, and all that.
Mom
30th April 2011, 08:14
So why does MAG promote itself as the Motorcycle Action Group then?
I was asked to give some ideas (Talking) which is better than slagging off. That equates to doing nothing as far as I'm concerned.
That is a question you will have to ask of MAG. I am no longer involved with the organisation.
Maha
30th April 2011, 10:46
So why does MAG promote itself as the Motorcycle Action Group then?
I was asked to give some ideas (Talking) which is better than slagging off. That equates to doing nothing as far as I'm concerned.
Talking? there was always too much talking and not enough doing within the committee forum, some even said at one stage it was getting like KB.
I will be very suprised to see any public action from MAG before October rolls around.
This attempt proves/confirms alot to me...
Dissapointing really, small steps and all that. They couldn't even carry this through.
In my opinoin, the was always too many cooks in the kitchen...
MAG needed to be scaled down, and that has happened.
Unfortunately, the ones that left were the ones that needed to stay.
I am still a paid member and have yet to resign from the committee in order with the rules that were set out in the begining.
MAG need to prove thier worth sooner rather than later.
Why did people hand over $20 in the first place?
Because they were lead to believe that MAG was going to get out there kick some arse. That wont happen, talk all you want......its cheap enough.
We tried on a couple of occassions to get members involved with social/charity runs but, to be honest, if it were not for the committee member turning out, things would have been pretty grim.
phill-k
30th April 2011, 11:12
With the right people behind an idea, it takes bugger all for it to be a success..
That is only part of the answer - the "idea" has to have the potential of success as well, expecting a large turnout for a protest on a weekday was always going to fail.
Maha
30th April 2011, 11:20
That is only part of the answer - the "idea" has to have the potential of success as well, expecting a large turnout for a protest on a weekday was always going to fail.
My sig applies to what I do, not what MAG or anyone else does.
But you are right.
bogan
30th April 2011, 11:26
That is only part of the answer - the "idea" has to have the potential of success as well, expecting a large turnout for a protest on a weekday was always going to fail.
The bikoi was on a tues, bit more fired up back then though, obviously we underestimated the apathy around. We've learnt from this attempt though, and will make it easier for bikers next time.
phill-k
30th April 2011, 11:34
The bikoi was on a tues, bit more fired up back then though, obviously we underestimated the apathy around. We've learnt from this attempt though, and will make it easier for bikers next time.
Not sure you can necessarily put it all down to apathy, week days for most who are employed are always going to be difficult especially in today's economic climate.
Maha
30th April 2011, 14:02
Not sure you can necessarily put it all down to apathy, week days for most who are employed are always going to be difficult especially in today's economic climate.
If people are passionate about something they will make it happen no matter what.
Key now is, to fire up that passion/mongrel attitude (again) and make it happen...
I said earlier, its not difficult, you just have to know which buttons to push.
The ACC bla bla is about as enticing and attractive as horse shit.
A very small percentage may still care and that in itself is just not enough.
Bikers will react, just not to that saga.
Give them something else, and they will back you.
Gearup
30th April 2011, 17:12
I have to agree with you there. And the thing with the emotion was that it was strong enough to get people off their arses and out on the streets.
It's disappointing but given the feedback and the situation for this run, putting it off and re-planning something else makes sense. Try, try again, and all that.
Ok, if you say it's not a go with the mass market then perhaps more of a guerilla approach could produce results.
History is full of success stories using this strategy but it's a fine line to "ride" obviously.
What did you have in mind and what would be the objective given that it sounds as if the ACC issue is becoming a bore.
Ok, if you say it's not a go with the mass market then perhaps more of a guerilla approach could produce results.
History is full of success stories using this strategy but it's a fine line to "ride" obviously.
What did you have in mind and what would be the objective given that it sounds as if the ACC issue is becoming a bore.
Sure, but a big arse wooden horse would look so out of place on this the 21st century.
Gearup
1st May 2011, 13:34
Sure, but a big arse wooden horse would look so out of place on this the 21st century.
It could be disguised as a breakaway political group from ACT or the Maori party.
It could be disguised as a breakaway political group from ACT or the Maori party.
A Hone Horse? I like it.
I recently read about a really effective protest pulled off in France a while back.
14 Feb 1789, I think it was.
Due to lack of interest and unforeseen unavailability of some key organisers, the event is canned. This doesn't mean we are letting this crap slide, but we will not undertake protest action without significant numbers. Thanks and apologies to those who were planning to support this action, no doubt we will find other things for you to do in future!
Due to lack of interest and unforeseen unavailability of some key organisers, the event is canned. This doesn't mean we are letting this crap slide, but we will not undertake protest action without significant numbers. Thanks and apologies to those who were planning to support this action, no doubt we will find other things for you to do in future!
Just out of interest, who were the 'key organisers'?
It is my understanding that the finger was pointed at one person outside of mag for the ''canning'' of this event.
As a paid member I believe this enquiry is justified.
Gearup
1st May 2011, 21:46
A Hone Horse? I like it.
Or a Hidey hole maybe.
Just out of interest, who were the 'key organisers'?
It is my understanding that the finger was pointed at one person outside of mag for the ''canning'' of this event.
As a paid member I believe this enquiry is justified.
The organisers were all MAG members.
It was my call not to go ahead with this event. I have not talked to anyone outside of MAG about this, either prior to or since that decision.
Quasievil
1st May 2011, 22:46
I joined MAG enthusiastically I have a pin and everything, to date I aint seen a lot of well anything TBH
if you cant do anything perhaps pull the flag down
seems to me like a waste of fucking time.
Can I get my $30 back please ?
I joined MAG enthusiastically I have a pin and everything, to date I aint seen a lot of well anything TBH
if you cant do anything perhaps pull the flag down
Perhaps that is part of the problem, you joined mag but expect only a few of us to do the work. We would much prefer it if our members got involved and helped where possible. For example you're obviously pretty in the know about riding gear, we could use a rider gear awareness type thing for our site, so riders can make informed choices as to what gear is appropriate for their riding conditions.
Luckylegs
2nd May 2011, 08:23
Perhaps that is part of the problem, you joined mag but expect only a few of us to do the work. We would much prefer it if our members got involved and helped where possible. For example you're obviously pretty in the know about riding gear, we could use a rider gear awareness type thing for our site, so riders can make informed choices as to what gear is appropriate for their riding conditions.
But its an ACTION group not a fricken information group... ???
But its an ACTION group not a fricken information group... ???
Yes, it is an ACTION group.
Part of that is being PRO-ACTIVE, not just RE-ACTIVE.
The whole point is to raise and promote issues that affect motorcyclists AND motorcycling. Some of that will take the form of demonstrating against things that are anti-motorcycling. And some of if will be putting options in front of motorcyclists in an effort to have them take 'more' responsibility for themselves on an individual basis.
We all recognise that the fence is better than the ambulance...don't we?
Quasievil
2nd May 2011, 08:35
Perhaps that is part of the problem, you joined mag but expect only a few of us to do the work. We would much prefer it if our members got involved and helped where possible. For example you're obviously pretty in the know about riding gear, we could use a rider gear awareness type thing for our site, so riders can make informed choices as to what gear is appropriate for their riding conditions.
Hang on a minute, an organisation took my money to help fund the action required to combat an agenda I agreed with, I would expect some action from your end, and if MAG arent going to do that I want my money back.
And re gear im a biker to, not everything I do has to involve my business.
Luckylegs
2nd May 2011, 08:50
Yes, it is an ACTION group.
Part of that is being PRO-ACTIVE, not just RE-ACTIVE.
The whole point is to raise and promote issues that affect motorcyclists AND motorcycling. Some of that will take the form of demonstrating against things that are anti-motorcycling. And some of if will be putting options in front of motorcyclists in an effort to have them take 'more' responsibility for themselves on an individual basis.
We all recognise that the fence is better than the ambulance...don't we?
We'll agree to disagree then
We'll agree to disagree then
There are all sorts of ACTIONS...including doing nothing.
MAG may not be living up to your definition of action, but they are not doing nothing.
Hang on a minute, an organisation took my money to help fund the action required to combat an agenda I agreed with, I would expect some action from your end, and if MAG arent going to do that I want my money back.
And re gear im a biker to, not everything I do has to involve my business.
And we have been doing things (look on the site for more details), but the big action you seem to want, requires active participation as well as membership fees.
Course it doesn't have to involve your business, but we would like it to involve something.
Gearup
2nd May 2011, 09:48
Come on MAG admit it, you still haven't ticked all the boxes.
Good intentions, some great people but where has it all gone?
Participation would have happened if members had seen things were being done and I'm talking as someone who signed up and offered help in a professional capacty but got not support.
I could tell in the first month I was there that things weren't well organised despite all the assurance that MAG was going to kick arse.
All these knockers...and they're not even tits.
Is there some problem in stepping up to be counted if others aren't 'doing it for you' ??
This is just like what KM rants about. Plenty who see 'the problem' - as long as it's in terms of being someone else's problem.
Perhaps try something with the ''Riders Are Voters''...something new/something that will bring alive the mongrel that once was. Its not difficult...:corn:
It is an Election year after all.
Today's "Kiwi Mongrel"
237828
Gearup
2nd May 2011, 10:49
All these knockers...and they're not even tits.
Is there some problem in stepping up to be counted if others aren't 'doing it for you' ??
This is just like what KM rants about. Plenty who see 'the problem' - as long as it's in terms of being someone else's problem.
People wouldn't have to rant if they were listened to and supported don't you think?
In an organisation if the boss or executive team are wrong they wear the consequences ultimately but the planning takes care of most issues and adjustments can always be made if things aren't tracking well.
It takes leadership, resources and planning to get things done.
The human factor part of resources is the real tricky part but people will "buy in" if things are happening as I said.
Don't take suggestions/ideas/rants as negative. Maybe it's only about the adjustments that people can see are needed to be carried out.
Hang on a minute, an organisation took my money to help fund the action required to combat an agenda I agreed with, I would expect some action from your end, and if MAG arent going to do that I want my money back.
And re gear im a biker to, not everything I do has to involve my business.
How many MAG rides did you attend?
How many Letters to the Editor did you write?
How many members did you recruit?
People wouldn't have to rant if they were listened to and supported don't you think?
In an organisation if the boss or executive team are wrong they wear the consequences ultimately but the planning takes care of most issues and adjustments can always be made if things aren't tracking well.
It takes leadership, resources and planning to get things done.
The human factor part of resources is the real tricky part but people will "buy in" if things are happening as I said.
Don't take suggestions/ideas/rants as negative. Maybe it's only about the adjustments that people can see are needed to be carried out.
Fair enough. However...
MAG came into being because a lot of people were frustrated with their perception/s of Bronz and it's performance. These people fairly quickly discovered 'the problem'...
People are quick to support without really getting involved, and very soon fade into the background.
Gearup
2nd May 2011, 11:14
Fair enough. However...
MAG came into being because a lot of people were frustrated with their perception/s of Bronz and it's performance. These people fairly quickly discovered 'the problem'...
People are quick to support without really getting involved, and very soon fade into the background.
I know, that's what people are like. There's only two real problems in the world: People and customers....
The Riders are Voters strategy sounds like the new mongel indeed. The biggest weapon in a democracy should be voting power. Surely in an election year you'd think government would be more than a little worried.
oneofsix
2nd May 2011, 11:23
I know, that's what people are like. There's only two real problems in the world: People and customers....
The Riders are Voters strategy sounds like the new mongel indeed. The biggest weapon in a democracy should be voting power. Surely in an election year you'd think government would be more than a little worried.
At the risk of returning to the beginning of the circle, this is why those who organise need to be supported to organise a ride. The Politicians know most of us will vote according to our concerns without voicing them, therefore if a group rides they know they have put themselves out enough to demonstrate their concerns and are going to vote accordingly.
With this being an election year now is the time to remind the parties to consider our mood in their election policies/promises.
That said I am not an organiser but am a rider, sodler not a general :scooter:
At the risk of returning to the beginning of the circle, this is why those who organise need to be supported to organise a ride. The Politicians know most of us will vote according to our concerns without voicing them, therefore if a group rides they know they have put themselves out enough to demonstrate their concerns and are going to vote accordingly.
With this being an election year now is the time to remind the parties to consider our mood in their election policies/promises.
That said I am not an organiser but am a rider, sodler not a general :scooter:
Indeed, however, tptb will laugh and strike bikers off the list of 'voters worth buying' if the turnout is shit.
oneofsix
2nd May 2011, 11:33
Indeed, however, tptb will laugh and strike bikers off the list of 'voters worth buying' if the turnout is shit.
true :crybaby:
Quasievil
2nd May 2011, 11:40
How many MAG rides did you attend?
One, the Waikato one
I went on the Bikehoi from Hams
I also was instrumental in organising other protest rides such as the Cheesecutter ride.
I protested at the ACC ride in Hamilton also.
How many Letters to the Editor did you write?
None to the editor, about 4 to political parties, including Nick Smith, and our local politicians.
I also rung Paul Bennett (Nats MP) to have words.
Additionally I set out on a email campaign to all the National Parties MPs.
How many members did you recruit?
None, why would I bother at this point.
If Mags intention is to wait for its members to do the fighting why do we need Mag ?
And lastly if "I" havent heard about the actions MAG are doing without going to the website to find out, then you must be doing fuck all
that is outside squabbling amongst yourselves.
Gearup
2nd May 2011, 12:02
true :crybaby:
Is it too late to get back to the cyclists?
They are "riders" as well obviously, it doesn't have to just be motorcyclists does it?
As we know the ACC levy issue is a much wider ripoff. It's multiple income streams from individuals already.
I've talked to cyclists who see the next step is of them being targeted for registration and safety levies!!
If Mags intention is to wait for its members to do the fighting why do we need Mag ?
Think of MAG-NZ as a resource pool, members know everyone there wants to make a difference, and members can get or provide help for various actions through MAG. That's the vision anyway, currently it is mainly the management/comittee/original members who are doing things. Maybe we need to do big things to attract members, maybe we need more member participation before we can do big things properly, bit of chicken-egg scenario really.
One thing is definite though, we have learnt a shitload in the last 8-ish months, and I'm not about to waste all that by buggering off. Theres some Sun Tzu quote that perhaps is applicable
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
And lastly if "I" havent heard about the actions MAG are doing without going to the website to find out, then you must be doing fuck all
Have you been getting the MAG-RAG newsletter through your email? I know a few of our members haven't due to spam filtering etc.
I know, that's what people are like. There's only two real problems in the world: People and customers....
The Riders are Voters strategy sounds like the new mongel indeed. The biggest weapon in a democracy should be voting power. Surely in an election year you'd think government would be more than a little worried.
Tried to run with the Riders Are Voters strategy while I was the events person within mag but alas, I go back a previous comment where I said 'too many cooks'
Trying to get a 100% agreement on anything while there was more than 20 say soers was like trying to throw a tissue into a rather stiff easterly.
Theres the problem right there!
oneofsix
2nd May 2011, 14:14
Tried to run with the Riders Are Voters strategy while I was the events person within mag but alas, I go back a previous comment where I said 'too many cooks'
Trying to get a 100% agreement on anything while there was more than 20 say soers was like trying to throw a tissue into a rather stiff easterly.
Theres the problem right there!
:woohoo: protest by committee :facepalm:
Theres the problem right there!
and it's been fixed, there is no need for a unanamous decision, as long as enough people agree to help out as are needed (and it doesn't conflict with the MAG-NZ rules and principals) and it's buisness time :yes:
Fatt Max
2nd May 2011, 14:23
We all tried to do stuff, no point harping on about who did this and who did that (and that includes myself by the way).
This thread is about a proposed ride demonstrating some action by MAG, and they should be congratulated for having a go. Ok, it didn’t happen at this time and I am sure all or any explanation will be forthcoming in the fullness of time, that is their prerogative but also their obligation to the paid up members. I am sure they will fulfill that.
Moving forward, MAG will continue on their path and good on them. Either support them or not, leave it at that.
That’s my 2c but as I have been told many times, "what the fuck do I know".
I’ve even got in trouble for trying to be nice to people……..is it cos I is fat……??
:woohoo: protest by committee :facepalm:
In a word...yes.
As Quasi said earlier, why do we need mag?
I firmly believe now that we dont need such an entity.
If I wanted to, I personally could have any number of people turn out for a protest within say....4-6 weeks of the protest action being made public.
Can I be arsed with all that shit anymore...no.
My sig says it all really.
That may all sound big headed, but I give a fuck not.
oneofsix
2nd May 2011, 14:28
We all tried to do stuff, no point harping on about who did this and who did that (and that includes myself by the way).
This thread is about a proposed ride demonstrating some action by MAG, and they should be congratulated for having a go. Ok, it didn’t happen at this time and I am sure all or any explanation will be forthcoming in the fullness of time, that is their prerogative but also their obligation to the paid up members. I am sure they will fulfill that.
Moving forward, MAG will continue on their path and good on them. Either support them or not, leave it at that.
That’s my 2c but as I have been told many times, "what the fuck do I know".
I’ve even got in trouble for trying to be nice to people……..is it cos I is fat……??
That, all but the last 2 sentences, reads like a thread closer. Because I agree with the sentiment in the rest I'll leave the last 2 sentences to others.
Gearup
2nd May 2011, 14:38
We all tried to do stuff, no point harping on about who did this and who did that (and that includes myself by the way).
This thread is about a proposed ride demonstrating some action by MAG, and they should be congratulated for having a go. Ok, it didn’t happen at this time and I am sure all or any explanation will be forthcoming in the fullness of time, that is their prerogative but also their obligation to the paid up members. I am sure they will fulfill that.
Moving forward, MAG will continue on their path and good on them. Either support them or not, leave it at that.
That’s my 2c but as I have been told many times, "what the fuck do I know".
I’ve even got in trouble for trying to be nice to people……..is it cos I is fat……??
Moving forward with the new streamlined MAG then, cyclists anyone?
Perhaps a spot of car clubs (Hot rods etc) they're always up for a bit of action I believe.
Tally Ho chaps!!
PS: You is both fat and nice Max.
BoristheBiter
2nd May 2011, 15:52
Moving forward, MAG will continue on their path and good on them. Either support them or not, leave it at that.
That’s my 2c but as I have been told many times, "what the fuck do I know".
I’ve even got in trouble for trying to be nice to people……..is it cos I is fat……??
I should hope you know a lot about pies, where the best are found, who has the best, who is the cheapest and if your hungry at 2am who is still open.
I should hope you know a lot about pies, where the best are found, who has the best, who is the cheapest and if your hungry at 2am who is still open.
I should say he knows all about pies. He contracted as an adviser to the Police in their dealings with hungry drunks at that time of the morning...
He's still getting royalties for that little gem - "Blow on the pie"
DEVVIL
2nd May 2011, 21:35
Was the Pie pipering hot :laugh:
Oh well moving on......
Think of MAG-NZ as a resource pool...
Dear God! Sorry bogan, but MAG-NZ is not a resource pool, though it has a great resource of stuff to read, and links to "really" research stuff. It is supposed to be an action group...
ACTION = DOES STUFF!
I am happy to admit I ran out of steam, I worked really hard, under very difficult personal circumstances, and got no support. There were plenty of things in the pipeline, they got talked out...
Dear God! Sorry bogan, but MAG-NZ is not a resource pool, though it has a great resource of stuff to read, and links to "really" research stuff. It is supposed to be an action group...
ACTION = DOES STUFF!
Thats taking it out of context, in fact if you read the whole sentence I state it is a resource pool for action. Resources also include people btw.
DEVVIL
2nd May 2011, 22:21
Stop it.:shutup:
Fatt Max
3rd May 2011, 07:33
Stop it.:shutup:
Yeah, +1 to that.
Knowing the people behind this I am sure the point will be made through action as well as all the other work that goes on behind the scenes.
We can choose to support it or ignore it, just like anything really.
The ride got canned, so be it. Doesnt mean it wont happen again but that is down to MAG to call it and anyone who wants to support it.
StoneY
3rd May 2011, 11:40
The ride got canned, so be it. Doesnt mean it wont happen again but that is down to MAG to call it and anyone who wants to support it.
I missed something in the thread....
Ride not going ahead on the 5th???? :S
If you are rescheduling to get better numbers on another date let me know please, and will it be a weekend?
I spread the word to all my contacts but the timing was off for most of them........
flyingcrocodile46
3rd May 2011, 23:36
Fair enough. However...
MAG came into being because a lot of people were frustrated with their perception/s of Bronz and it's performance. These people fairly quickly discovered 'the problem'...
People are quick to support without really getting involved, and very soon fade into the background.
Hindsight is useful in analyzing failures. Though if it was replaced with foresight, those who chose to further fragment biker unity by detracting from BRONZ rather than putting their efforts into helping them, may have better appreciated the issues involved and avoided squandering the limited support that was on offer from the masses.
It ain't like a crystal ball was needed. Sometimes less is more.
madmartin
4th May 2011, 14:15
Pizza for cat?
you noobs voted national in anyways, so there you go!
took someone a long time to say it!
flyingcrocodile46
4th May 2011, 18:56
took someone a long time to say it!
Truly simple ignorance isn't as common as it used to be amongst the blinkered majority.
Gearup
4th May 2011, 19:26
Hindsight is useful in analyzing failures. Though if it was replaced with foresight, those who chose to further fragment biker unity by detracting from BRONZ rather than putting their efforts into helping them, may have better appreciated the issues involved and avoided squandering the limited support that was on offer from the masses.
It ain't like a crystal ball was needed. Sometimes less is more.
At the risk of further inflaming the acrominy, it's interesting to hear a BRONZ version.
The phrase "the limited support that was on offer from the masses" seems to be true for both MAG and BRONZ.
Such a pity that nothing seems to be moving forward.
Is it too late to start talking to each other to get the major issue of ACC payers being ripped off resolved.
As far as I know, there has not been a problem in communication between BRONZ and MAG-NZ....
WE dont always agree, but have had respect for each others views. Personally I will continue to believe there is room for both points of view. Same coin, different sides dear.
Gearup
4th May 2011, 21:13
As far as I know, there has not been a problem in communication between BRONZ and MAG-NZ....
WE dont always agree, but have had respect for each others views. Personally I will continue to believe there is room for both points of view. Same coin, different sides dear.
I didn't say there was a problem in communication but the mere fact you say "same coin, different sides" doesn't make it a meeting of like minds.
plenty of room for all I would have thought
flyingcrocodile46
5th May 2011, 06:03
United we ain't divided we fell.
I believe it is over a year too late. The moment has been and gone. Most of us are over it now. Just the clingers remain to make a smell and frankly I'm sick of it. I feel it makes us all look stupid.
As Stoney said, all that was required was for the Mag movers to attend BRONZ meetings and vote themselves in. If they had support at the start it would have been an easy no fuss transition.
As Stoney said, all that was required was for the Mag movers to attend BRONZ meetings and vote themselves in. If they had support at the start it would have been an easy no fuss transition.
My Mother died the day of the AGM.
United we ain't divided we fell.
I believe it is over a year too late. The moment has been and gone. Most of us are over it now. Just the clingers remain to make a smell and frankly I'm sick of it. I feel it makes us all look stupid.
As Stoney said, all that was required was for the Mag movers to attend BRONZ meetings and vote themselves in. If they had support at the start it would have been an easy no fuss transition.
You are right, the time has passed, a year later MAG is still bleating on about the ACC & how unfair it is. :whocares:
Bronz seemed to have a similar situation within their membership as MAG has now. Perhaps combining the two would have the effect of a united voice??
Bronz- MAG anyone??? :innocent:
StoneY
5th May 2011, 08:15
I didn't say there was a problem in communication but the mere fact you say "same coin, different sides" doesn't make it a meeting of like minds.
And that is true. However, no matter how one perceives it both organisations have YOUR interests at heart, and do the best they can with the support they have :-)
StoneY
5th May 2011, 08:20
My Mother died the day of the AGM.
Sorry to hear that Anne
Surely MAG was more than one person though?
And I see many ex (and current) BRONZ members in your founding member list.
I am constantly reminded that BRONZ Wellington is more than just Brent Hutchison's opinions..... (god damn it!)
I saw the comment 'protest by committee made earlier in the thread...
Well YES that's what an organisation has to live with, what else did anyone expect?
No one person should make ALL the decisions, thats life in the world of biker representation...herding cats.........
Gearup
5th May 2011, 09:05
plenty of room for all I would have thought
Same type of comment, different day "dear".
Gearup
5th May 2011, 13:57
And that is true. However, no matter how one perceives it both organisations have YOUR interests at heart, and do the best they can with the support they have :-)
There's no queston of each organisation having the bikers interests at heart. The issue is one of the divided support between BRONZ and MAG like the Croc said.
How do you think bikers perceive that?
Fatt Max
5th May 2011, 14:59
There's no queston of each organisation having the bikers interests at heart. The issue is one of the divided support between BRONZ and MAG like the Croc said.
How do you think bikers perceive that?
I suppose in my humble opinion, there was always going to be a certain amount of division, same as there is with the likes of Ulysses, MNZ and the wider biker community.
My personal opinion was that both organizations were applying varied methods to achieve the common goal. MAG was based on action, BRONZ had a political approach. I think at the end of the day, if the issues were big and loud enough, ALL bikers would have supported it no matter what side of the fence they were on.
Certain people may criticize me for what I say now, but it was clear that BRONZ were working away at their thing but the problem was nobody knew (certainly in Auckland as far as I could see) what 'their thing' was. MAG were doing all their backroom work but, certainly in the early days, had more of an information flow going. Whether you agreed or disagreed with MAG you always knew whet they were doing. BRONZ in Auckland were almost invisible.
As for BRONZ Wellington, well, a different story. There were lines of communications open, there seemed to be much more information flow and they made things happen.
In my view, everything came to a head when the MSL was announced. The threads on that showed some deep division within the biker community even outside of MAG and BRONZ. However, as I said (to my cost as has transpired), that whole debate should have been the catalyst for bikers to come together and have their voice heard.
You could support the MSL or not, but either way there was an angle where the politicians would be held to account for their actions. My tiny mind could see an opportunity for a level of solidarity there, but it was not to be.
So as for ‘divided support’, well, those two words fit very well to describe how BRONZ and MAG countered each other when working towards the same thing.
I have been called all sorts of names by various people for even suggesting this in the past, but I don’t really give a fuck. All I want is the best outcome for the biker community regardless of who is who and what is what.
...........
All I want is the best outcome for the biker community regardless of who is who and what is what.
If only that was what the biker 'community' wanted too...
StoneY
5th May 2011, 15:15
There's no queston of each organisation having the bikers interests at heart. The issue is one of the divided support between BRONZ and MAG like the Croc said.
How do you think bikers perceive that?
Well, there is also the National Forum of motorcycle Clubs that MAG and BRONZ both contribute too, my placement on the MSAC, and other initiatives that have come and gone over the years.............
Should we state they are also taking away support from BRONZ? For many years there was nothing to get upset about, seems this govt has made us all wake up a bit (and that includes me)
I can see why MAG came to be, but personally I agree somewhat with your point of view about splitting the pool, its small enough as it is.
But like political parties, we cant force people to choose what to vote for.........or who to join.
People like to choose what organisations they join, and will leave behind ones that they think are ineffective and I can see how many people felt we (BRONZ) did not do enough post BIKEOI to take our gains further...
I like to think we had an effect on reducing the levy rise somewhat but...no way to prove that is there?
And Les mason was the one who started that ball rolling..... is it fair to blame him for the apathy that descended after the event?
God know all BRONZ groups tried to keep the momentum up but it seemed to me everyone had shot their load.
The second protest we ran, in Feb 2010 fizzled out, only 80 people from the unions bothered coming despite the huge sums spent by CTU to publicize it... apathy, a nationwide disease.
360 odd Biker came too, some even from Auckland but nothing like we saw for Nov 09
Wellington BRONZ in its current incarnation is not much older than MAG is, and I want to think we are doing good work, and with our membership numbers fast approaching 90 financial members and gaining momentum I guess that's indicative that we are gaining more support.....
Being placed on the MSAC has had some (the lesser informed) people say I sold out...
There is no way to please em all mate, trust me I gave up trying and got on with ensuring our members get the full story as much as I possibly can and we created the BRONZ Federation to try unite the nationwide splinter groups.
Gearup
5th May 2011, 15:54
If only that was what the biker 'community' wanted too...
Surely when you cut through the crap it is. I hate being ripped off and I'm bloody sure that's what others hate as well.
Gearup
5th May 2011, 15:59
I suppose in my humble opinion, there was always going to be a certain amount of division, same as there is with the likes of Ulysses, MNZ and the wider biker community.
My personal opinion was that both organizations were applying varied methods to achieve the common goal. MAG was based on action, BRONZ had a political approach. I think at the end of the day, if the issues were big and loud enough, ALL bikers would have supported it no matter what side of the fence they were on.
Certain people may criticize me for what I say now, but it was clear that BRONZ were working away at their thing but the problem was nobody knew (certainly in Auckland as far as I could see) what 'their thing' was. MAG were doing all their backroom work but, certainly in the early days, had more of an information flow going. Whether you agreed or disagreed with MAG you always knew whet they were doing. BRONZ in Auckland were almost invisible.
As for BRONZ Wellington, well, a different story. There were lines of communications open, there seemed to be much more information flow and they made things happen.
In my view, everything came to a head when the MSL was announced. The threads on that showed some deep division within the biker community even outside of MAG and BRONZ. However, as I said (to my cost as has transpired), that whole debate should have been the catalyst for bikers to come together and have their voice heard.
You could support the MSL or not, but either way there was an angle where the politicians would be held to account for their actions. My tiny mind could see an opportunity for a level of solidarity there, but it was not to be.
So as for ‘divided support’, well, those two words fit very well to describe how BRONZ and MAG countered each other when working towards the same thing.
I have been called all sorts of names by various people for even suggesting this in the past, but I don’t really give a fuck. All I want is the best outcome for the biker community regardless of who is who and what is what.
Yep, it's a bit like a company being run by a committee and having different methods of planning, action, reporting and analysis.
Gearup
5th May 2011, 16:02
Well, there is also the National Forum of motorcycle Clubs that MAG and BRONZ both contribute too, my placement on the MSAC, and other initiatives that have come and gone over the years.............
Should we state they are also taking away support from BRONZ? For many years there was nothing to get upset about, seems this govt has made us all wake up a bit (and that includes me)
I can see why MAG came to be, but personally I agree somewhat with your point of view about splitting the pool, its small enough as it is.
But like political parties, we cant force people to choose what to vote for.........or who to join.
People like to choose what organisations they join, and will leave behind ones that they think are ineffective and I can see how many people felt we (BRONZ) did not do enough post BIKEOI to take our gains further...
I like to think we had an effect on reducing the levy rise somewhat but...no way to prove that is there?
And Les mason was the one who started that ball rolling..... is it fair to blame him for the apathy that descended after the event?
God know all BRONZ groups tried to keep the momentum up but it seemed to me everyone had shot their load.
The second protest we ran, in Feb 2010 fizzled out, only 80 people from the unions bothered coming despite the huge sums spent by CTU to publicize it... apathy, a nationwide disease.
360 odd Biker came too, some even from Auckland but nothing like we saw for Nov 09
Wellington BRONZ in its current incarnation is not much older than MAG is, and I want to think we are doing good work, and with our membership numbers fast approaching 90 financial members and gaining momentum I guess that's indicative that we are gaining more support.....
Being placed on the MSAC has had some (the lesser informed) people say I sold out...
There is no way to please em all mate, trust me I gave up trying and got on with ensuring our members get the full story as much as I possibly can and we created the BRONZ Federation to try unite the nationwide splinter groups.
Thanks for that, we may get something done after all.
Yep, it's a bit like a company being run by a committee and having different methods of planning, action, reporting and analysis.
Yes it is, and a large percentage of first time companies fail within a short space of time due to lack of 'direction'....the one word you ommitted.
I wasn't going to post again in this thread, but this seems like a reasonably constructive discussion, so I'll change my mind for as long as it stays that way.
Support is a tricky issue, you could blame; groups for dividing it, riders for not providing it, groups for not gathering support. But there is one commonality in blaming any of them, it gets you nowhere.
To get somewhere you gotta put in the effort, I think (but I'm biased here) MAG's structure/forum makes it easy for members to get help with getting things done, but the person who suggests it can't just expect others to do it all. Maybe that is costing us support? Maybe there isn't support? Maybe we have to do more to earn it first? I dunno.
Gearup
5th May 2011, 16:53
Yes it is, and a large percentage of first time companies fail within a short space of time due to lack of 'direction'....the one word you ommitted.
Nope, direction is covered under planning and action. Most first time companies fail due to lack of customers and funding.
Fatt Max
5th May 2011, 16:54
[SIZE="1"]MAG's structure/forum makes it easy for members to get help with getting things done, but the person who suggests it can't just expect others to do it all. Maybe that is costing us support? Maybe there isn't support? Maybe we have to do more to earn it first? I dunno.
Exactly sir, well put.
And direction, direction is the key to success of any organisation no matter what the ultimate aim is. That direction has to be focused, inspring, present and positive.
MAG has great people driving it, always did but I believe that ultimate direction was missing.
This thread is about the Three Strikes Protest. I know that it will rise again and you will make it happen as a group. That is because you will forge your own direction as a group and not rely on the vision of individuals to guide a cause that is for the good of all bikers.
I wish you all the luck in the world, your collective success with BRONZ and others is a goal that I will support in the making and revel in the result of,
Good onya people
Would it be fair to say (honest question here) that mags approach to action from here on in will be IT based?
I ask this because most (if not all) the ''doers'' are no longer within.
There are some very smart brain types as in yourself John/Dom/Steve/Neil etc but you guys are not really the ''get out there and fuck 'em up'' type eh? surely even you would agree with that John?
Voltaire
5th May 2011, 16:58
I wasn't going to post again in this thread, but this seems like a reasonably constructive discussion, so I'll change my mind for as long as it stays that way.
Support is a tricky issue, you could blame; groups for dividing it, riders for not providing it, groups for not gathering support. But there is one commonality in blaming any of them, it gets you nowhere.
To get somewhere you gotta put in the effort, I think (but I'm biased here) MAG's structure/forum makes it easy for members to get help with getting things done, but the person who suggests it can't just expect others to do it all. Maybe that is costing us support? Maybe there isn't support? Maybe we have to do more to earn it first? I dunno.
I used to be involved in the kids fundraising and it was always the same people who did all the work, some like doing it, others feel obligated to do it and some let the others do it. I've watched BRONZ and MAG from the sidelines and just can't get excited about meetings, committtees and protesting.( I do enough of that at the office).
I did however go to Welly for the 09 protest...and the meeting at the Yacht Club with Nick..:innocent:....then I lost interest.....jeez it hard being middle aged and middle New Zealand....
Surely when you cut through the crap it is. I hate being ripped off and I'm bloody sure that's what others hate as well.
So where are they and their support for those that are trying to drive the issue/s?
There's plenty on here who have only ever knocked the efforts of others.
There are quite a few who were at the coalface (so to speak) and threw their hands up and left because there was no support. I'd even go so far as to suggest that maybe they didn't get the internal support they needed to continue?
All the bitching about the issues and what is/isn't being done to counter them is a sure sign that bikers aren't happy. So where is their support?
flyingcrocodile46
5th May 2011, 17:55
And that is true. However, no matter how one perceives it both organisations have YOUR interests at heart, and do the best they can with the support they have :-)
I have no doubt that is also true. The representatives of any such organisation ideally need to level headed, un-emotive, properly understand their resources, base aims and expectations in reality and it would be advantageous if they are independently wealthy and/or have no family/social responsibilities that demand any attention.
TBH I am not altogether sure that the Bronz wern't up to the task. I think it was more a matter of a small (but overly e-vocal) percentage of this forums members weighing their personal opinions (and idealism) too heavily and having too great an expectation of what a bikers right organisation should be aiming to achieve. Though again, I have no doubt that their motivation is pure.
Gearup
5th May 2011, 18:05
So where are they and their support for those that are trying to drive the issue/s?
There's plenty on here who have only ever knocked the efforts of others.
There are quite a few who were at the coalface (so to speak) and threw their hands up and left because there was no support. I'd even go so far as to suggest that maybe they didn't get the internal support they needed to continue?
All the bitching about the issues and what is/isn't being done to counter them is a sure sign that bikers aren't happy. So where is their support?
Perhaps they're feeling a bit worn out by it all currently although this time 'round, the postings have cleared the air a bit.
I for one am feeling like things could be on the go again. Only time and turnouts etc will tell.
flyingcrocodile46
5th May 2011, 18:13
My Mother died the day of the AGM.
My sympathies.
I wasn't going to post again in this thread, but this seems like a reasonably constructive discussion, so I'll change my mind for as long as it stays that way.
Support is a tricky issue, you could blame; groups for dividing it, riders for not providing it, groups for not gathering support. But there is one commonality in blaming any of them, it gets you nowhere.
To get somewhere you gotta put in the effort, I think (but I'm biased here) MAG's structure/forum makes it easy for members to get help with getting things done, but the person who suggests it can't just expect others to do it all. Maybe that is costing us support? Maybe there isn't support? Maybe we have to do more to earn it first? I dunno.
Your response evidences that you have a lot to offer bikers as a active proponent. Why not merge with and motivate (but with balance) BRONZ. It is most often personalities behind failures to align pathways to principal objectives (especially when so many goals are shared). Neither you nor Les (or Mark for that matter) appear to be the sorts who would easily let such differences prevent a positive outcome.
carver
5th May 2011, 18:14
I think all those other protest rides probably pissed off the Govt and made em want to hit us, so i BLAME QUASI!
He organized the Cheesecutter protest ride, the MFSC tried to ruin it and save you all, but we failed!
flyingcrocodile46
5th May 2011, 18:23
Les mason was the one who started that ball rolling..... is it fair to blame him for the apathy that descended after the event?
God know all BRONZ groups tried to keep the momentum up but it seemed to me everyone had shot their load.
The second protest we ran, in Feb 2010 fizzled out, only 80 people from the unions bothered coming despite the huge sums spent by CTU to publicize it... apathy, a nationwide disease.
Almost nailed in one blow. Les did a great job when it mattered most. Hat's off to him and a big thank you.
Whilst I think you are largely correct in your summary I don't believe your description of diminishing support is correctly described as "apathy". I believe it should be more correctly interpreted as direction (or a poll) from the people whom the two groups claim to represent and that in their enthusiasm, well intentioned people have simply failed to read the writing on the wall.
flyingcrocodile46
5th May 2011, 18:28
I used to be involved in the kids fundraising and it was always the same people who did all the work, some like doing it, others feel obligated to do it and some let the others do it. I've watched BRONZ and MAG from the sidelines and just can't get excited about meetings, committtees and protesting.( I do enough of that at the office).
I did however go to Welly for the 09 protest...and the meeting at the Yacht Club with Nick..:innocent:....then I lost interest.....jeez it hard being middle aged and middle New Zealand....
Heh! Another hammer hand hits the nail home. I went too. Just fucked up and overshot before I realised and had to ride all the way back from Dunedin to get there in time :facepalm:
Your response evidences that you have a lot to offer bikers as a active proponent. Why not merge with and motivate (but with balance) BRONZ. It is most often personalities behind failures to align pathways to principal objectives (especially when so many goals are shared). Neither you nor Les (or Mark for that matter) appear to be the sorts who would easily let such differences prevent a positive outcome.
you mean me individually, or a 'patchover'? Either way I think there is more to be gained by sticking with MAG.
flyingcrocodile46
5th May 2011, 18:44
Would it be fair to say (honest question here) that mags approach to action from here on in will be IT based?
I ask this because most (if not all) the ''doers'' are no longer within.
There are some very smart brain types as in yourself John/Dom/Steve/Neil etc but you guys are not really the ''get out there and fuck 'em up'' type eh? surely even you would agree with that John?
You have raised a very good point. I personally do not think that it is a good idea for committee members (especially the top dogs) to have an active profile online. There is a place for these forums as a tool for polls as to firming up on goal selections (from a pre-selected list of options) and monitoring for ideas for committe members to consider and discuss OFFLINE but otherwise I see reliance on forums such as this for direction and discussion as something to be considered with a grain or two of salt. There are far too few people who have far too much to say for themselves (yes me too at times) and a real lack of balance results. The average biker is not well represented by the views and opinions of a few overly vocal well intentioned (but self important) individuals.
flyingcrocodile46
5th May 2011, 18:46
you mean me individually, or a 'patchover'? Either way I think there is more to be gained by sticking with MAG.
I meant you individually (and MAG as a collective) as well. I disagree with your choice but respect that it is yours to make.
I will end my contribution now as I have said all I have to say on the matter and see no sense in debating the issue further in support of my views as I have no desire to push my own barrow. If the load has merit others will push it along a pace or two... or not.
There are already far too many people pushing their own barrows here.
Gearup
5th May 2011, 21:12
You have raised a very good point. I personally do not think that it is a good idea for committee members (especially the top dogs) to have an active profile online. There is a place for these forums as a tool for polls as to firming up on goal selections (from a pre-selected list of options) and monitoring for ideas for committe members to consider and discuss OFFLINE but otherwise I see reliance on forums such as this for direction and discussion as something to be considered with a grain or two of salt. There are far too few people who have far too much to say for themselves (yes me too at times) and a real lack of balance results. The average biker is not well represented by the views and opinions of a few overly vocal well intentioned (but self important) individuals.
In the absence of direction from a committee and the clarification of the some issues, which has happened here, then the forum does represent the average biker.
Members are also customers so it's vital for them to have some type of feedback medium other than physical meetings.
They can read and they can also have their say if they want to. Some may just not choose to be so vocal as the ones who do it often here.
roadrage
12th May 2011, 19:19
The publictransport is a complete mess, when i used to go by train i used to stand on one foot because there was no space besides the fact having to chagea train and a bus.I support this and want to let the goverment know: the harder they try to get us off our bikes the harder we shall hold on:
Smifffy
12th May 2011, 19:39
Loving all of the publicity this protest generated.
theseekerfinds
12th May 2011, 21:23
as a society (of riders) I believe some of us have the right to sit back while others do "all the work" just as some of us have the right to step up and do all the fundraising and others have the right to make suggestions that they need others to pursue and fulfill.. we are all great at something.. none great at everything..
Too many on this thread seem to think that everyone needs to do something, at worst everything, or that if you do nothing your are providing nothing.
To many people those that do nothing provide the catalyst to make others do lots, or more.. to some the suggestions put forward by others provide drive and inspiration to complete those suggestions and bring them to fruition.. it seems like many of the posts on this thread belong in a playground amongst 5 year olds, while others are positive and subscribe to and suggest change and put forward great ways to achieve the change necessary..
but it is a bit rich thinking that just because someone can suggest great things that they are the same people who can, and should, do everything to turn those great suggestions into reality, just as it is a bit rich to think that by simply telling someone they are expected to put in some effort that they have told the right person, the person who actually puts in effort, that they need them to put in effort when actually they have told the person who actually does nothing..
sure we need action, sure we need suggestions..
but in reality it's a lot more like running a country as opposed to running a company. There are tens of thousands of bikers in NZ, all with differing opinions, all with different bikes, all wanting different things from those they align themselves with and those organisations they join.. just as political parties pick and choose who they represent and then work to represent their catchment of voters so it should be seen to be with our bikers support organisations.. they work for the betterment of all riders but not necessarily working together all the time (in the public domain at any rate), they work in the same general direction but not necessarily doing the same things.. they have to put up with those who support one organisation slagging off the ideas of those who support the other organisation, one organisation must put up with being slagged off by the other organisation and so it goes.. but saying just because you did nothing the whole thing went belly up is just shit, it takes more than a few people simply not doing something to bring about the downfall of a great suggestion.. perhaps there was just no plan to get the suggestion to fruition? the suggestion needs to be put to the right people, who need to engage the right people to get it started, who need to engage the right people to carry it through, who need to engage the right people to see the completion, who need to know the right audience to perform in front of, who need to be the actual decision makers and not just those who work for the decision makers..
and as an aside businesses fail because of lack of planning and contingencies, there is no other reason, everything falls under planning and contingencies.. money and customers do not make a business successful, they simply sustain it, but they do not make it, both will always come and go, which a successful business will have planned for and when one is in short supply they will have plans in place to access more of the other..
it just seems like a lot of folks on here expect that because things are suggested they will automatically occur, that someone will pick up the idea and see it through, when what really needs to occur is serious planning not just schoolyard talk.. as the old adage goes "talk is cheap" but the real truth is "failing to plan is planning to fail"..
this is not directed at anyone in particular, more a response to the posts that I have read decrying one group at the expense of another and decrying one's ideas at the expense of another.. we are all, after all, bikers, and we should put our suggestions to those who would make use of them rather than to those who would decry them as useless because no suggestion is useless, it is just not acted upon..
sorry I know I rave on but I love riding and I love talking to those who ride, sometimes it's just that what we say should be said to someone else because the one we choose to speak to isn't the right person to make that suggestion eventually see the light of day, rather they undermine what we say in their support of other opinions put forward when both opinions are valid and full of merit..
I've raved on enough and need a break :rockon:
Berries
12th May 2011, 22:16
my10c worth
I think you'll find that was a dollars worth.
StoneY
13th May 2011, 06:51
I think you'll find that was a dollars worth.
Not just a dollar mate, that was fuckin brilliant and bang on the money.
Inspirational even.
Now that's $0.02
:yes:
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