General bitch (oops, I mean discussion) about bikers thread [Archive] - Page 2

skippa1

5th May 2011, 11:38

The first sentence is clearly aimed at you. After all, you had the avoidable accident.

The next two sentences are general observations. The fact that you react so defensively to them speaks volumes.

What speaks volumes is....(quote "His tone is abusive and condesending and that is why most people have him on ignore......As for his online comments, yes, I cringe when I read them) said by a mod about you recently

What speaks volumes is the number of haters you have on this site, so many you have to start a poll on it. I am surprised that you have a few loyal followers.

You have no right to comment on my accident(or anyone elses for that matter). You were not there, you dont know the circumstance, you have no qualification, you have no experience in analysing accidents or cause and effect. You hide behind the ACC charges on your registration as a reason or validation for making flipant, unwanted, unwarranted and uneducated comment of accidents that you have no knowledge of.

My opinion is based on some experience, having read your posts and comments. My opinion is that you are a coward that sits behind a keyboard making anonymous smart arse comments about riding a motorcycle based on nothing, zip, zeron, nothing at all. I dont believe you ride a bike, you may not even own one. You talk with authority on matters you clearly have no substance in, as the comments are full of sarcasam and criticisim without any constructive base. Its convieient to sit on that high horse with hindsight on your side. I dont care what your opinion is anymore (never have really), I care that you invade my space with your shit. So from me, a very sincere FUCK OFF :motu:

Eyegasm

5th May 2011, 11:46

You have no right to comment on my accident(or anyone elses for that matter). You were not there, you dont know the circumstance, you have no qualification, you have no experience in analysing accidents or cause and effect. You hide behind the ACC charges on your registration as a reason or validation for making flipant, unwanted, unwarranted and uneducated comment of accidents that you have no knowledge of.

I care that you invade my space with your shit. So from me, a very sincere FUCK OFF :motu:

Yet you posted it on a public forum? and really? you posted it on KB...
What where you expecting? sympathy?

skippa1

5th May 2011, 11:54

Yet you posted it on a public forum? and really? you posted it on KB...
What where you expecting? sympathy?

I asked for some insurance advice and specifically requested that comments on the accident be left out of the equation. I dont want your sympathy, or anyone elses, I dont give a fuck about sympathy.

Katman

5th May 2011, 11:56

I dont give a fuck about sympathy.

Funny that - neither do I. :eek:

MSTRS

5th May 2011, 11:56

You have no right to comment on my accident(or anyone elses for that matter). You were not there, you dont know the circumstance, you have no qualification, you have no experience in analysing accidents or cause and effect. You hide behind the ACC charges on your registration as a reason or validation for making flipant, unwanted, unwarranted and uneducated comment of accidents that you have no knowledge of.

Did I not already post something along the lines of "You've not been here very long, have you?"
What you accuse him of re ACC - he started out telling people to own their crashes, stop blaming 'other stuff', sort their shit out and pay attention when riding - or this would be what we could expect, long ago.

skippa1

5th May 2011, 12:01

Funny that - neither do I. :eek:

Good, first thing we have agreed on then

skippa1

5th May 2011, 12:12

Did I not already post something along the lines of "You've not been here very long, have you?"
What you accuse him of re ACC - he started out telling people to own their crashes, stop blaming 'other stuff', sort their shit out and pay attention when riding - or this would be what we could expect, long ago.

Well suck my dick. I didnt realise what he was trying to say cause it was all hidden in what I term wankerisims. Seriously, if he wants to be taken seriously by others, new or not, the message may be semi ok (people should own their crashes, they shouldnt blame other stuff all of the time and they should pay attention - HOWEVER accidents still happen) but he is the wrong person to deliver it. All this shit about people treating their bikes like toys or disposable items. Really MSTRS, do YOU really believe that???:blink:

MSTRS

5th May 2011, 12:18

No. But then again, I don't always agree with KM either.
On the other hand, bikes being treated as disposable toys may not be that far from the truth in some cases. That is the perception given by their riders.

Katman

5th May 2011, 12:18

I dont give a fuck about sympathy.

Funny that - neither do I. :eek:

Good, first thing we have agreed on then

Well suck my dick.

Have we just entered the Twilight Zone.:blink:

skippa1

5th May 2011, 12:21

Have we just entered the Twilight Zone.:blink:

it wasnt an instruction just a suggestion

Grubber

5th May 2011, 12:48

Well suck my dick. I didnt realise what he was trying to say cause it was all hidden in what I term wankerisims. Seriously, if he wants to be taken seriously by others, new or not, the message may be semi ok (people should own their crashes, they shouldnt blame other stuff all of the time and they should pay attention - HOWEVER accidents still happen) but he is the wrong person to deliver it. All this shit about people treating their bikes like toys or disposable items. Really MSTRS, do YOU really believe that???:blink:

So true. Never read such an absolute crock of shite in all my life.
Too true, w do need to take responsibility for our crashes if we have one. But i won't if it is someone elses fault. So take that....
TOYS????? DISPOSABLE????? Get serious....my bike is a shrine thanks.

Grubber

5th May 2011, 12:50

Just my desperate attempt to stay on the fence. It's getting harder and harder, what with all the idiots tossing rocks at me...

Maybe they are not the idoits :facepalm:

Grubber

5th May 2011, 12:52

MSTRS

5th May 2011, 12:53

Maybe they are not the idoits :facepalm:

Of course they are.
From up here, I can see both sides...

Katman

5th May 2011, 13:10

Maybe they are not the idoits :facepalm:

:double :facepalm::

Looks like we've found drongo number 2.

skippa1

5th May 2011, 13:19

double :facepalm:

Looks like we've found drongo number 2.

Take another look, its only your reflection

raftn

5th May 2011, 13:19

Katmans message is relevant and does need to be said, perhaps at times the message is delivered wrong, but that sould not distract from the fact it needs to be said.

New Zealand bikers are killing themselves far to often, and yet not many of us are learning from these mistakes. We are all repsonseable for how we ride, the training we take, our mental attitude while on the road.

Single rider bike accidents that are non injury are very rarely reported so do not get included in official crash statistics. If the rider is okay, often the bike is picked up, put in a van, and the accident is unkown to most everyone. On average every second bike crash is single rider, in reality it is in fact a great deal higher.

Learning from other peoples accidents, and the reasons why, weather it be poor rider skills, road conditions, or any other multitude of reasons will go a long way to improving our own attitude when out riding. To often accidents are swept under the carpet and nothing is learned.

Learning to ride and improving your skills is a never ending quest, just because you have a bike license does not qualify you as a good rider.

Everone has a right to come on here and vent, but we also have a responseabilty to encourage safer riding and improving of skills. Katma does not always delivery the message tactfully, never the less the message needs to get out there, so look past the bull shit, and dont throw the baby out with the bath water.

MSTRS

5th May 2011, 13:19

Aint one-eyed denial a ... something?

Grubber

5th May 2011, 13:59

Of course they are.
From up here, I can see both sides...
And this is from your high and mighty throne is it????
Do you wonder why people are throwing "rocks" at you?
It seems to me you are prepared to call them idiots for having an opinion, which is all you are expressing also,,,so this would make you just the same, would it not?

:double :facepalm::

Looks like we've found drongo number 2.
Resorted to name calling. Now that's an intelligent argument. Once you get to this point you have basically lost the the whole fight....:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Take another look, its only your reflection
Wish i had thought of that!

Katmans message is relevant and does need to be said, perhaps at times the message is delivered wrong, but that sould not distract from the fact it needs to be said.

New Zealand bikers are killing themselves far to often, and yet not many of us are learning from these mistakes. We are all repsonseable for how we ride, the training we take, our mental attitude while on the road.

Single rider bike accidents that are non injury are very rarely reported so do not get included in official crash statistics. If the rider is okay, often the bike is picked up, put in a van, and the accident is unkown to most everyone. On average every second bike crash is single rider, in reality it is in fact a great deal higher.

Learning from other peoples accidents, and the reasons why, weather it be poor rider skills, road conditions, or any other multitude of reasons will go a long way to improving our own attitude when out riding. To often accidents are swept under the carpet and nothing is learned.

Learning to ride and improving your skills is a never ending quest, just because you have a bike license does not qualify you as a good rider.

Everone has a right to come on here and vent, but we also have a responseabilty to encourage safer riding and improving of skills. Katma does not always delivery the message tactfully, never the less the message needs to get out there, so look past the bull shit, and dont throw the baby out with the bath water.

Well said Rog. The only issue i have with this, is the one man torrent of bullshit that we seem to have to put up with at every angle.
I have spent many a day with new riders, showing them how to keep there heads on and have had only 2 crashes over 40 years myself. I think KM may be better employed trying to do something of the same, rather than come on here at every turn annoying the bejesus out of everyone.

MSTRS

5th May 2011, 14:17

It seems to me you are prepared to call them idiots for having an opinion, which is all you are expressing also,,,so this would make you just the same, would it not?

If an opinion is wrong, can be proved to be wrong, yet the espouser of that opinion persists...then they deserve to be called an idiot.

KM 's message isn't wrong. His opinion on how it should be delivered might be. The poll results seem to say something different tho...

I have spent many a day with new riders, showing them how to keep there heads on and have had only 2 crashes over 40 years myself. I think KM may be better employed trying to do something of the same, rather than come on here at every turn annoying the bejesus out of everyone.
Good for you. About the same track record as me. And possibly KM too...I only really 'know' him on here.

avgas

5th May 2011, 14:38

When it starts hitting others in the wallet and starts intruding on others liberties then it very much does become other's business.
Only if they chose to take it up with someone.
However some people will take EVERYTHING up they possibly can - jump and scream until they are blue in the face.
Doesn't change anything though.
That unfortunately is life.

Grubber

5th May 2011, 15:00

If an opinion is wrong, can be proved to be wrong, yet the espouser of that opinion persists...then they deserve to be called an idiot.

KM 's message isn't wrong. His opinion on how it should be delivered might be. The poll results seem to say something different tho...

Good for you. About the same track record as me. And possibly KM too...I only really 'know' him on here.

And who says thier opinion is wrong and how can you prove otherwise....on and on it goes.
I know that in 1 crash i had, it was definately NOT my fault. Problem is that KM will come along and make it mine even though he was no where to be found on the day.
Stop trying to say there is always something could have been done, cause it's not always the case. Only thing that could have been done for me was that the woman driving the 4 x 4 stayed home in the kitchen (that should start something new), no ifs buts or maybes. There wasn't one damn thing I could have done, end of fuckin story. the other one was, i simply went to quick into a corner and binned it. MY fault! But i don't need the KM's of this world to explain that to me, i'm already clever enough.:yes:
Oh yea, and i don't need anyone going on about this effecting their ACC levies. I paid my dues and some, so i deserve a payback. By the way, i didn't need any ACC anyway so i'm still way in credit.

Katman

5th May 2011, 15:03

There wasn't one damn thing I could have done, end of fuckin story.

You need to lose the victim mentality.

skippa1

5th May 2011, 15:10

If an opinion is wrong, can be proved to be wrong, yet the espouser of that opinion persists...then they deserve to be called an idiot.Why do so many see motorcycles as disposable toys?

KM 's message isn't wrong. His opinion on how it should be delivered might be. The poll results seem to say something different tho...

Good for you. About the same track record as me. And possibly KM too...I only really 'know' him on here.

Going by your summary, in my book, that clearly labels anyone who says that "there is no such thing as an accident, they are all avoidable," on and on and on,an idiot. Because to quote one of your recent posts,

"Except by not being there in the first place, true accidents (act of god type) are unavoidable. All others fall in the class of avoidable, in so far as the person/s involved make a mistake."

MSTRS

5th May 2011, 15:14

Oh yea, and i don't need anyone going on about this effecting their ACC levies.

That's your opinion...

I paid my dues and some, so i deserve a payback.

Would you go have an injury-causing crash? No?
Funny that...

By the way, i didn't need any ACC anyway so i'm still way in credit.

So am I. For the same reason. But a long succession of others having injury crashes means I must pay. And since there's been a lot over the years that needn't have happened, I pay even more. I don't like that.

R-Soul

5th May 2011, 15:16

I dont think KM is saying anything at all about fault.

Let me put it to you this way. Take a "groundhog day" situation (but slightly different), where you are forced to repeat the day (or at least the last few seconds of the accident) until you get it right. Otherwise you wake up with amnesia -where you live the same day again - you know that you have an accident that day, but you dont know where and when.

What would you do to prevent that accident (and no smarmy "not ride" remarks - sadly thats what the government's conclusion is)?

ride slower?
look for any telltale signs?
preempt people doing stupid things at every oppportunity?

Whatever you could do to avoid the accident - that is what KM is saying you SHOULD have done in the first place....

Yes it takes a hellvalot of patience, headache inducing paranoia, and riding like a chronic neurotic - but maybe thats what we really should be doing. Look at what the alternatives are. Our kids without parents?

Swoop

5th May 2011, 15:18

Someone needs to give them a good kick in the ass. :angry:
What has their donkey done to deserve that?

skippa1

5th May 2011, 15:18

Given the fact that you said,
"If an opinion is wrong, can be proved to be wrong, yet the espouser of that opinion persists...then they deserve to be called an idiot."

Would it not stand to reason that if a person was to continually say all accidents are avoidable, they would be inviting this label? After all, you clearly have an opinion on that........

Yellow Dog: "FACT: All accidents of any kind are avoidable.
MSTRS: Nope. Except by not being there in the first place, true accidents (act of god type) are unavoidable. "

skippa1

5th May 2011, 15:21

Katman

5th May 2011, 15:22

Of course, but thats not what he is saying. He says that bikes are toys, we treat them like they are disposable. He says all accidents are avoidable. Where are the constructive bits?.....

I think we've found drongo number 3.

skippa1

5th May 2011, 15:24

I think we've found drongo number 3.

youve counted me twice dickhead

By the way, point me to the constructive bit

MSTRS

5th May 2011, 15:28

Going by your summary, in my book, that clearly labels anyone who says that "there is no such thing as an accident, they are all avoidable," on and on and on,an idiot. Because to quote one of your recent posts,

"Except by not being there in the first place, true accidents (act of god type) are unavoidable. All others fall in the class of avoidable, in so far as the person/s involved make a mistake."

Aha - I see what you mean. With the below proviso, I stand by what I said.
Some time ago,. we had a thread arguing about what construes an accident, as opposed to a crash.
My contention then, as it is now, is that an accident is not only unintentional, but is utterly unavoidable. ie act of god - at least, almost. One where nobody did anything wrong, but some sort of crash occured anyway. These sort are actually quite rare.

The next sort of accident (a crash) is one where someone does something wrong, and anyone else caught up in it could not have avoided that involvement. Not so rare.

The usual sort of accident (a crash) is even less rare. Someone makes a mistake. Sometimes they are the only one involved, sometimes they involve someone else.

Let's assume for a moment that the someone is a SMIDSY and the someone else is a biker. In that type of accident, the biker who is really on to it, may 'see' what is about to happen and takes steps to avoid it.
With me so far?
KM will have us believe that always the case. And I tend to agree with him. Failure to identify the looming crisis, or missing the clues through not paying attention or simply riding like a cock leaving no escape route/safety buffer are quite common.

Katman

5th May 2011, 15:28

youve counted me twice dickhead

You've just been elevated to double drongo status.

You don't understand English and you can't count either.

Edbear

5th May 2011, 15:30

You need to lose the victim mentality.

What does that mean? Why do you call it a victim mentality just because someone could not have avoided the accident? If you take my accident as an example, one could correctly say I was a victim. Once the wheels lost traction on the oil which was invisible through the streaming wet windscreen, I was able to avoid crashing into oncoming traffic, managing to spin the van the opposite way. However once that happened I was a mere passenger as the vehicle no longer would respond to any inputs. I crashed. Was that an "Act of God"? I don't think HE hates me that much, somehow... It was an accident by definition. Not caused by anything I was doing wrong, not caused by inattention, not caused by any fault with the vehicle.

Going by your summary, in my book, that clearly labels anyone who says that "there is no such thing as an accident, they are all avoidable," on and on and on,an idiot. Because to quote one of your recent posts,

"Except by not being there in the first place, true accidents (act of god type) are unavoidable. All others fall in the class of avoidable, in so far as the person/s involved make a mistake."

What mistake did I make? If I can find that out I may not do the same again.

skippa1

5th May 2011, 15:33

You've just been elevated to double drongo status.

You don't understand English and you can't count either.

Incorrect. I dont understand the ramblings of a womble......or is that a wombles (a double womble) womble, wombles, singular, plural
I guess I was stupid enough to crash so you should expect this confusion

oneofsix

5th May 2011, 15:36

Incorrect. I dont understand the ramblings of a womble......or is that a wombles (a double womble) womble, wombles, singular, plural
I guess I was stupid enough to crash so you should expect this confusion

Wombles is the plural :yes:

george formby

5th May 2011, 15:38

Wombles is the plural :yes:

They are reforming to play Glastonbury this year. Wheres that best one hit wonder thread gone?

skippa1

5th May 2011, 15:40

And I stand by what I said.
Some time ago,. we had a thread arguing about what construes an accident, as opposed to a crash.
My contention then, as it is now, is that an accident is not only unintentional, but is utterly unavoidable. ie act of god - at least, almost. One where nobody did anything wrong, but some sort of crash occured anyway. These sort are actually quite rare.

The next sort of accident is one where someone does something wrong, and anyone else caught up in it could not have avoided that involvement. Not so rare.

The usual sort of accident (a crash) is even less rare. Someone makes a mistake. Sometimes they are the only one involved, sometimes they involve someone else.

Let's assume for a moment that the someone is a SMIDSY and the someone else is a biker. In that type of accident, the biker who is really on to it, may 'see' what is about to happen and takes steps to avoid it.
With me so far?
KM will have us believe that always the case. And I tend to agree with him. Failure to identify the looming crisis, or missing the clues through not paying attention or simply riding like a cock leaving no escape route/safety buffer are quite common.

That world is called LaLa land and is reserved for fairies, those that are really out of it or bored people. If you think for one second that KM's comments are saving us from that you are sadly mistaken. Taken to its full conclusion we would all wear helmets walking down the road, avoid eating in case we got sick, avoid breathing incase we inhale a bug.....OMG....the world just isnt that way. And this is all to save KM some rego for a bike he clearly doesnt ride

Maha

5th May 2011, 15:40

Wombles is the plural :yes:

Spooky, you almost gussed the name of his business.

MSTRS

5th May 2011, 15:46

willytheekid

5th May 2011, 15:51

.....:corn:.....:shit:.....nearly out of popcorn! :facepalm:

skippa1

5th May 2011, 15:54

skippa1

5th May 2011, 15:55

.....:corn:.....:shit:.....nearly out of popcorn! :facepalm:

Here, have mine, I'm loosing my appetite
:corn:

willytheekid

5th May 2011, 16:12

Here, have mine, I'm loosing my appetite
:corn:

Thanks!.....I was SOOO worried I was gonna run out before KM post's the video of his perfect riding & God like premonition.....:corn:....can't wait for it!

skippa1

5th May 2011, 16:27

Thanks!.....I was SOOO worried I was gonna run out before KM post's the video of his perfect riding & God like premonition.....:corn:....can't wait for it!

Unlikely it will fire after this much time:shutup:

ducatilover

5th May 2011, 17:32

Here, have mine, I'm loosing my appetite
:corn:
You're appetite is getting looser?
:blink:

:corn:

MSTRS

5th May 2011, 17:36

You're appetite is getting looser?

Well, something is...

ducatilover

5th May 2011, 17:54

Well, something is...
Time to "feed the horse"

:innocent:

skippa1

5th May 2011, 19:35

You're appetite is getting looser?
:blink::corn:

Yes, its been loosed, let go, freed from restraint...

and it doesnt want popcorn

ducatilover

5th May 2011, 20:20

Yes, its been loosed, let go, freed from restraint...

and it doesnt want popcorn
Loose enough to fist?

Grubber

6th May 2011, 06:25

You need to lose the victim mentality.
You dick! Who the fuck said i think i'm a victim. How would you now what or who i am? No clue at all. I HTFU in 2 seconds. Suggest you get over whatever it is that seems to be irritating you all the time. For your information, when i crashed and was lying on the ground, the first thing i said to my mate that ran over was, "is the woman in the car ok"
Does this sound like i am a victim.
Mt point is, if you can possibly understand this at all, it was NOT my fault. Can you get that bit or not. How the fuck do you get victim mentality out of that?

That's your opinion...

Would you go have an injury-causing crash? No?
Funny that...

So am I. For the same reason. But a long succession of others having injury crashes means I must pay. And since there's been a lot over the years that needn't have happened, I pay even more. I don't like that.

Welcome to the real world. This has been the case since before i was born and figure it will go on for a long time after. If you don't like it, buy a push bike, they cost ya nothing.

I think we've found drongo number 3.

Shit! Not again! Someone else who has a different slant than KM on the subject. How dare they!

youve counted me twice dickhead

By the way, point me to the constructive bit

You will always be a grongo as you will always have a different opinion to KM.
Constructive???? You will be waiting a while for that response my friend.:yes:

Grubber

6th May 2011, 06:49

That world is called LaLa land and is reserved for fairies, those that are really out of it or bored people. If you think for one second that KM's comments are saving us from that you are sadly mistaken. Taken to its full conclusion we would all wear helmets walking down the road, avoid eating in case we got sick, avoid breathing incase we inhale a bug.....OMG....the world just isnt that way. And this is all to save KM some rego for a bike he clearly doesnt ride
Right on Brother!!! Choice is an amazing thing isn't it. You weigh up the pro's and con's and the costs and make the decision and off ya go. In our cases it's bikes and i still don't regret that decision at all, even with the rise in rego. If it got that bad i would sell my kids!

Pffft.

Managing the risk, by taking all reasonable and practical steps to avoid or mitigate is all that KM is saying.
Clearly 'reasonable and practical' mean different things to different people.
If your reasonable and practical steps fall short of KM's standard, and you crash because they weren't enough, then clearly his standard of care was =better than yours. And if you go on to defend your steps or deny they weren't enough, then you've just opened yourself to the label of idiot.

Here you go again. Your saying right here that if someone has a different risk level than you and i then he immediately becomes and idiot. Well i ride pretty dam good and i see some that ride even better and are able to do things on a bike that i can't but i don't label them an idiot because they can. If your skill level limits you to a pootle, then so be it, but don't lecture me or anyone else who elects to ride faster or better or whatever just because you choose not too. Why you ask! because that person that is going quicker may be equipped well enough to do just that.

pfffttt yourself. I havent seen him say that for some time. I see all sorts of other shit, but not just "take all reasonable and practical steps". Point that out to me will you? I dont defend my steps or otherwise, I dont see why he has any right whatsoever to criticise the steps I have taken when he doesnt know me, has never met me and was not at the accident scene. To do so is presumptious and make obtuse comments is just a bit of this:tugger:and does nothing for his cause

Ya Ya fella. Exactly!

Thanks!.....I was SOOO worried I was gonna run out before KM post's the video of his perfect riding & God like premonition.....:corn:....can't wait for it!

Make sure you got a brush to keep the cobwebs off, cause it gonna be a long wait my friend. I actually think he can't ride and thats the real issue here.You know, bit of the old jealousy creeping in.
Maybe even a victim mentality, due to the fact everyone else can ride much better than him etc. Could be cause for another pole right there.
IS KM A MENTAL VICTIM?
Will leave you to answer that one.

MSTRS

6th May 2011, 09:53

Here you go again. Your saying right here that if someone has a different risk level than you and i then he immediately becomes and idiot. Well i ride pretty dam good and i see some that ride even better and are able to do things on a bike that i can't but i don't label them an idiot because they can. If your skill level limits you to a pootle, then so be it, but don't lecture me or anyone else who elects to ride faster or better or whatever just because you choose not too. Why you ask! because that person that is going quicker may be equipped well enough to do just that.

:facepalm:

Here we go again. Just like KM's posts, you read what I wrote, but you didn't comprehend it. Go back and read it again.
I never said someone with a different interpretation of risk is an idiot.

Katman

6th May 2011, 10:01

Here we go again. Just like KM's posts, you read what I wrote, but you didn't comprehend it. Go back and read it again.

Welcome to the world of Katman.

skippa1

6th May 2011, 10:05

Welcome to the world of Katman.

looks like you guys are chums:psst:

Grubber

6th May 2011, 10:51

Pffft.

Managing the risk, by taking all reasonable and practical steps to avoid or mitigate is all that KM is saying.
Clearly 'reasonable and practical' mean different things to different people.
If your reasonable and practical steps fall short of KM's standard, and you crash because they weren't enough, then clearly his standard of care was =better than yours. And if you go on to defend your steps or deny they weren't enough, then you've just opened yourself to the label of idiot.

"opened yourself to the label of idiot"
These are your words are they not?
Sounds like you might have decided they will be labeled as idiots to me, as no-one else has said this anywhere.
Oh and i can fuckin read just fine thanks!
Maybe the practical and reasonable doesn't have to be to KM's standard. Who says his standard is high enough for a start. His standard isn't my guideline so why should it have to be anyone else's. Doesn't make me or anyone else any lesser person, it just makes us different.
Lets face it, no-one goes out of a day to crash, they go out to ride and enjoy. How they do it is up to them. It may not be my style or yours but never the less, they are still allowed to ride. A majority of people, in fact i would say most, don't ride too bad at all, it's only a small percentage that take things to the limit and they aren't going to stop just because you and i say so. That's called human nature.

Grubber

6th May 2011, 10:54

Welcome to the world of Katman.

My understanding of the English language is just fine. Maybe your writing ability needs to be looked at if you're having so much trouble with people understanding you.

imdying

6th May 2011, 11:11

Meh, free hospital care, cheap ACC, cheap insurance, cheap petrol, cheap private surgical cover (only a dick rides without it), given all that, I don't give a fuck :no:

And do you know what the super best bit is? When I crash my bike, a little piece of the bill is paid for by Katman :sunny:

And do you know the super duper best bit? There is absolutely nothing he can do about it :woohoo: Well unless you impotently posting on KB, but that'll never bear fruit :rofl:

MSTRS

6th May 2011, 11:17

Oh and i can fuckin read just fine thanks!

I wouldn't and couldn't disagree...

My understanding of the English language is just fine.

Not so sure about that. You are one of the very few (at least who post about it) who insist on putting meaning in mine and KM's post/s that isn't there and wasn't intended.

It is self-evident that someone who crashes because of a failure to adequately manage the risk they exposed themselves to is misguided to then defend that position. They should be questioning the wisdom of their actions and/or attitude, and if they are not - well then, they have opened themselves to ridicule from others.

Taken from the webpage just released by Gareth Morgan and co.

Anyone who says their riding could not be better is an idiot.

Katman

6th May 2011, 11:34

And do you know what the super best bit is? When I crash my bike, a little piece of the bill is paid for by Katman :sunny:

And do you know the super duper best bit? There is absolutely nothing he can do about it :woohoo:

Hah! Got you there. I could just give up motorcycling.

Oh....hang on......wait a minute.....ummm.....:pinch:

skippa1

6th May 2011, 11:37

Grubber

6th May 2011, 12:15

I wouldn't and couldn't disagree...

Not so sure about that. You are one of the very few (at least who post about it) who insist on putting meaning in mine and KM's post/s that isn't there and wasn't intended.

It is self-evident that someone who crashes because of a failure to adequately manage the risk they exposed themselves to is misguided to then defend that position. They should be questioning the wisdom of their actions and/or attitude, and if they are not - well then, they have opened themselves to ridicule from others.

Taken from the webpage just released by Gareth Morgan and co.

Perhaps your writing could do with some work if people are being mislead by your statements.
You distinctly quoted the word "idiot" in your sentence, therefore it is you who believes it to be correct.
I doubt very much that anyone would not agree that they could improve. I ride plenty well enough to save my arse but i am in the middle of doing the levels at California Superbike. Always good to be on the learn. It doesn't make me think those who don't are idiots though. They are obviously comfortable with their skill level as it is. Each to their own i think is the term used.
We could in fact say the same for car and truck drivers. There would be a huge amount of both that would not consider increasing their expertise. They are still able to drive safely though and seem to do so.
I don't think anyone is necessarily misguided either, if that's how they want to deal with their life. Entirely up to them really. It may differ from you and i, but still quite relevant all the same. It doesn't make them idiots, because you may just find that these people are extremely good at something else that we are not so good at. We all have our place on this earth.

Oh and i have never held Gareth Morgan in very high regard, so it's pointless quoting anything he said.

MSTRS

6th May 2011, 12:17

member of forest and bird to?:whistle:

That the best you can do? Not much of a tanty for being unable to refute the truth...

skippa1

6th May 2011, 12:26

That the best you can do? Not much of a tanty for being unable to refute the truth...

:brick:what truth?
"Anyone who says their riding could not be better is an idiot" - who said that? Name one.....go on, just one:scratch:

skippa1

6th May 2011, 12:28

just had a thought, maybe it was the one that said, "my bike is just a disposable toy"
we will never forget old whats his name?

MSTRS

6th May 2011, 12:32

Perhaps your writing could do with some work if people are being mislead by your statements.
You distinctly quoted the word "idiot" in your sentence, therefore it is you who believes it to be correct.
I doubt very much that anyone would not agree that they could improve. I ride plenty well enough to save my arse but i am in the middle of doing the levels at California Superbike. Always good to be on the learn. It doesn't make me think those who don't are idiots though. They are obviously comfortable with their skill level as it is. Each to their own i think is the term used.
We could in fact say the same for car and truck drivers. There would be a huge amount of both that would not consider increasing their expertise. They are still able to drive safely though and seem to do so.
I don't think anyone is necessarily misguided either, if that's how they want to deal with their life. Entirely up to them really. It may differ from you and i, but still quite relevant all the same. It doesn't make them idiots, because you may just find that these people are extremely good at something else that we are not so good at. We all have our place on this earth.

Oh and i have never held Gareth Morgan in very high regard, so it's pointless quoting anything he said.

"If you crash because you failed to adequately manage the risk you exposed yourself to" ... that just makes you human.
If you go on to defend your actions (ie 'I did nothing wrong') ... that makes you an idiot.

On the other hand, whatever your riding skill or level of risk management, if you never crash then where's the problem?

MSTRS

6th May 2011, 12:38

:brick:what truth?
"Anyone who says their riding could not be better is an idiot" - who said that? Name one.....go on, just one:scratch:

No one on here, in those words exactly. They simply distill the salient point of what I've been wasting my time in trying to get through to you.
You'll find them under Action here (http://www.motonz.org.nz/)

avgas

6th May 2011, 12:43

On the other hand, whatever your riding skill or level of risk management, if you never crash then where's the problem?
I face this problem.

I really want my balls back - but my wife won't give them too me.

On the upside I have not crashed a bike in years.......

Grubber

6th May 2011, 12:50

"If you crash because you failed to adequately manage the risk you exposed yourself to" ... that just makes you human.
If you go on to defend your actions (ie 'I did nothing wrong') ... that makes you an idiot.

On the other hand, whatever your riding skill or level of risk management, if you never crash then where's the problem?

More often than not they don't say they did nothing wrong, they say "so what" and carry on. That's up to them if they so wish.
Obviously there is no problem if you don't crash.
I don't get on my high and mighty and try and tell people what they should do or not do. I will on the other hand offer my 2c worth if i think something has benefited me and is worth recommending though. Such as the California Superbike School. But if that person does not wish to take advantage of said advice, then that is up to them and i don't spend the rest of my day trying to convince them otherwise and i most certainly don't consider them an idiot.
As an aside, if someone denies their responsibility in their accident then that would tell, not that they are an idiot, but unaware of it being a problem, which can also be a human trait. Only difference is, some of us do it in other facets of life other than riding.

R-Soul

6th May 2011, 12:57

What mistake did I make? If I can find that out I may not do the same again.

You were riding too fast for the conditions, with low visibility and not being able to clearly see the road in front of you. yes, if you were going any slower, you wouldstill be getting there, but if that is what ittakes to avoid an accident, then so be it.

I hope I am not coming across as preaching. I dont always ride like this, although I know I should (and I am tryingto have more patience and more neuroticism in order to do so). But if I don't apply suitable paranoia and take the risk, I will not be thinking of myself as a victim....

R-Soul

6th May 2011, 12:59

Katman

6th May 2011, 12:59

MSTRS

6th May 2011, 13:04

On the other hand, whatever your riding skill or level of risk management, if you never crash, or cause someone else to crash, then where's the problem?
In the interests of covering all the bases...

As an aside, if someone denies their responsibility in their accident then that would tell, not that they are an idiot, but unaware of it being a problem, which can also be a human trait.
True, but we're not talking about that type of unawareness, are we?
No - we're talking about a different type of ignorance.

R-Soul

6th May 2011, 13:04

Here you go again. Your saying right here that if someone has a different risk level than you and i then he immediately becomes and idiot.

No he is saying that if your standard of care is lower, and you have an accident, and then try and argue that your standard of care was sufficient, THEN you are an idiot - since, by definition, it was not!

Edbear

6th May 2011, 13:10

You were riding too fast for the conditions, with low visibility and not being able to clearly see the road in front of you. yes, if you were going any slower, you wouldstill be getting there, but if that is what ittakes to avoid an accident, then so be it.

I hope I am not coming across as preaching. I dont always ride like this, although I know I should (and I am tryingto have more patience and more neuroticism in order to do so). But if I don't apply suitable paranoia and take the risk, I will not be thinking of myself as a victim....

Not at all, preach away. But I was driving a Toyota Estima van and could clearly see the road, just couldn't see the oil due to the wet conditions. The road was streaming with water and dark which very effectively disguised the oil. Also at less than 50km/h in traffic, to go any slower probably wouldn't have changed much but would have really frustrated following drivers trying to get to work as I was.

As I said, I drove that road daily to work and was very familiar with it and the traffic conditions on it. My vehicle had just passed a WoF three days before and everything was up to scratch. In the Police Serious Crash report they placed no blame on me or the vehicle.

Katman

6th May 2011, 13:12

As I said, I drove that road daily to work and was very familiar with it and the traffic conditions on it.

Familiarity can often breed complacency.

Grubber

6th May 2011, 13:16

No he is saying that if your standard of care is lower, and you have an accident, and then try and argue that your standard of care was sufficient, THEN you are an idiot - since, by definition, it was not!

Says who. This is my point. It is you who labeled him an idiot, when in fact, as i have already said, in another field he may well be a lot smarter than you and i. He also may be more unaware than we realize, due to less experience maybe,that he is actually the cause, still doesn't make him an idiot.
If all those that were less informed about something in life were to labeled an idiot, then there would be very little chance of them moving forward.

Swoop

6th May 2011, 13:19

jmaybe it was the one that said, "my bike is just a disposable toy"
we will never forget old whats his name?
That would probably be "The Dover".

GSXR's are made to be a disposable toy...

Grubber

6th May 2011, 13:19

Familiarity can often breed complacency.

I would call it experience, but hey, you go blow ya horn if ya want.

R-Soul

6th May 2011, 13:20

More often than not they don't say they did nothing wrong, they say "so what" and carry on.

No, they allocate fault (legal or moral) for the accident, but keep insisting that their standard of care was good enough, when clearly it was not. in this way, the justify not having to learn from the experience. This is the "victim" mentality. This is what is teh problem with most post- accident debriefings on KB.

We hear: "It was Mary Pajeros fault for turning in front of me".

Not: "I saw here at the side of the road, with her indicator on, and I should have seen the ten children scrambling over the seats in the back, which could have distracted her from seeing me".

We hear: "The stupid bitch was talking on her mobile, didnt see the red light until too late, and smashed into the back of my stationary bike, after sliding 40 meters up an uphill, and knocking me into the intersection." (true story)

We dont hear: " I should have kept an eye on car movements around me, and in gear, even when I was stationary, so that I might have been able to move to the side when I heard the car tyres screeching behind me".

I do it - we all do this - but we need to change that mentality and learn from each other.

R-Soul

6th May 2011, 13:22

Says who. This is my point. It is you who labeled him an idiot, when in fact, as i have already said, in another field he may well be a lot smarter than you and i. He also may be more unaware than we realize, due to less experience maybe,that he is actually the cause, still doesn't make him an idiot.
If all those that were less informed about something in life were to labeled an idiot, then there would be very little chance of them moving forward.

Wrong- to defend the undefendable (after it is shown to be indefendable by himself) - is idiotic.

Edbear

6th May 2011, 13:22

Familiarity can often breed complacency.

It can, certainly. In this case, this stretch of road is notorious for accidents, there were I think on average over 70 crashes that year just on that stretch alone, so I was driving accordingly. You know the drill, wet road after warm weather, slight off-camber, slightly bumpy, heavy traffic. I was being careful.

Ironically, was I driving a front wheel drive, like our Pulsar, the outcome would probably have been very different as it would simply have slid sideways into the curb, but being rear-drive, the back end slid left, facing me into oncoming traffic which I had to react very fast to avoid and it was the second spin to the left that put me square on to the curb while sliding sideways resulting in the roll once the wheels contacted the curb.

Grubber

6th May 2011, 13:24

In the interests of covering all the bases...

True, but we're not talking about that type of unawareness, are we?
No - we're talking about a different type of ignorance.

Oh jeez, make up ya mind.
Ignorance can come in shapes and forms. What you may call ignorant someone else may call being unaware. See my point?
When ya talk about this sort of thing you need to keep definitions simple and straight so there is no deviations.
Unaware would be my preferred lingo. It just covers a wider field.

R-Soul

6th May 2011, 13:26

Not at all, preach away. But I was driving a Toyota Estima van and could clearly see the road, just couldn't see the oil due to the wet conditions. The road was streaming with water and dark which very effectively disguised the oil. Also at less than 50km/h in traffic, to go any slower probably wouldn't have changed much but would have really frustrated following drivers trying to get to work as I was.

As I said, I drove that road daily to work and was very familiar with it and the traffic conditions on it. My vehicle had just passed a WoF three days before and everything was up to scratch. In the Police Serious Crash report they placed no blame on me or the vehicle.

I am not judging or allocating fault or blame - I am saying that in most cases, we accept a certain amount of risk (just by riding we do). And instead of allocating fault after the fact, we should focus on what we could have done to avoid it. And change our riding accordingly. And preferably learn from others experiences first.

For example - perhaps if you had spent some time on a skid pan, or in an advanced drivers course, you would have been better trained to control the slide.

Of course you can take this stuff to extremes - Risk is generally decided on two things: the probability of something happen, and teh consequences of that thing happening. When you think about it, the probability of things happening on the road is high (how many people are in accidnets yearly?) , and the consequences of that risk can be enormous (i.e. death). The human body is just not evolved to deal with the kind of energies that vehicles have. In fact, it is stupid NOT TO take precaution to extremes. Because we have been conditioned to accept risk in vehicles from our growing up in an era of no seat belts, no ABS, no airbags, etc doesn't necessarily mean that the risk we subject ourselves to daily is objectively reasonable. Ditto for our attitude to bikes.

Edbear

6th May 2011, 13:33

Katman

6th May 2011, 13:33

No, they allocate fault (legal or moral) for the accident, but keep insisting that their standard of care was good enough, when clearly it was not. in this way, the justify not having to learn from the experience. This is the "victim" mentality. This is what is teh problem with most post- accident debriefings on KB.

We hear: "It was Mary Pajeros fault for turning in front of me".

Not: "I saw here at the side of the road, with her indicator on, and I should have seen the ten children scrambling over the seats in the back, which could have distracted her from seeing me".

We hear: "The stupid bitch was talking on her mobile, didnt see the red light until too late, and smashed into the back of my stationary bike, after sliding 40 meters up an uphill, and knocking me into the intersection." (true story)

We dont hear: " I should have kept an eye on car movements around me, and in gear, even when I was stationary, so that I might have been able to move to the side when I heard the car tyres screeching behind me".

I do it - we all do this - but we need to change that mentality and learn from each other.

That would have to be one of the most astute posts I've ever read on here.

MSTRS

6th May 2011, 13:38

Oh jeez, make up ya mind.
Ignorance can come in shapes and forms. What you may call ignorant someone else may call being unaware. See my point?
When ya talk about this sort of thing you need to keep definitions simple and straight so there is no deviations.
Unaware would be my preferred lingo. It just covers a wider field.

If you truly don't know something (like what I mean) then you are ignorant (unknowing)
If you know all about something (like what I mean) but continue to act like you don't then you are ignorant (idiotic)

I see quite a difference between the two.

The jury is out on which one you are...

skippa1

6th May 2011, 13:56

No one on here, in those words exactly. They simply distill the salient point of what I've been wasting my time in trying to get through to you.
You'll find them under Action here (http://www.motonz.org.nz/)

Ahhhhh, so now we get to the point. No one on here, no one, NO ONE. You are right you are wasting your time. You know why, because youre point, Km's points, are all based on what you have distilled from their comments. To quote someone that looks, smells and tastes all a bit like you.....
MSTRS - "Here we go again. Just like KM's posts, you read what I wrote, but you didn't comprehend it"

Pot.....meet the fuckin kettle:eek:

MSTRS

6th May 2011, 14:05

skippa1

6th May 2011, 14:14

Grubber

6th May 2011, 15:09

Trying in a variety of ways to get my point across, even enlisting the assistance of someone else's words, only to have every attempt twisted or mocked, was almost a complete waste of time. The one thing it did achieve was highlight the ignorance that some are determined to display...
Mine - in thinking that I was talking to someone intelligent.
Yours - for proving you're not that someone.

Your a fuckwit.
Don't ever try and put yourself on a pedestal above me you retard. You are not and never will be any better than me.
I have listened to your dribble for the past day or 2 and it appears to me your just the type, if someone disagrees, then they are most definitely inferior to yourself.
Personally i have now had enough time wasted on your bollocks you stuck up little shit.
You should spend some time reading your rubbish and then stand back and take a good look in the mirror....jeez i can't believe the arrogance....oh and yea...didn't you mention that somehwere at one stage.

Grubber

6th May 2011, 15:13

If you truly don't know something (like what I mean) then you are ignorant (unknowing)
If you know all about something (like what I mean) but continue to act like you don't then you are ignorant (idiotic)

I see quite a difference between the two.

The jury is out on which one you are...

You forgot to mention those that know but choose not to. That's not ignorance, that's choice. It is not an "act" but a choice to refuse that path.

You may think you sound clever but alas your not.

skippa1

6th May 2011, 15:19

Your a fuckwit.
Don't ever try and put yourself on a pedestal above me you retard. You are not and never will be any better than me.
I have listened to your dribble for the past day or 2 and it appears to me your just the type, if someone disagrees, then they are most definitely inferior to yourself.
Personally i have now had enough time wasted on your bollocks you stuck up little shit.
You should spend some time reading your rubbish and then stand back and take a good look in the mirror....jeez i can't believe the arrogance....oh and yea...didn't you mention that somehwere at one stage.

I think I'm done now to. The whole thread is a wind up, designed for this to provoke debate and/or anger. They are all the same. They hide behind a keyboard making cowardly statements about others situations with not the slightest idea of what happened. Comments they would never make to your face. You notice that Katman ducks in and out throwing up on someones post then ducking out, leaving drones to fight in his corner. The funny thing is thay are so stupid, they think they are fighting his cause.......hes just here for the entertainment and wind up.
KM will come back and make some retarded comment to try and revive this thing MSTRS cant see that he is being whored by KM.:shit:

MSTRS

6th May 2011, 15:20

Hey KM? Do you detect a note of desperation on the part of some here....

Grubber

6th May 2011, 15:24

I am not judging or allocating fault or blame - I am saying that in most cases, we accept a certain amount of risk (just by riding we do). And instead of allocating fault after the fact, we should focus on what we could have done to avoid it. And change our riding accordingly. And preferably learn from others experiences first.

For example - perhaps if you had spent some time on a skid pan, or in an advanced drivers course, you would have been better trained to control the slide.

Of course you can take this stuff to extremes - Risk is generally decided on two things: the probability of something happen, and teh consequences of that thing happening. When you think about it, the probability of things happening on the road is high (how many people are in accidnets yearly?) , and the consequences of that risk can be enormous (i.e. death). The human body is just not evolved to deal with the kind of energies that vehicles have. In fact, it is stupid NOT TO take precaution to extremes. Because we have been conditioned to accept risk in vehicles from our growing up in an era of no seat belts, no ABS, no airbags, etc doesn't necessarily mean that the risk we subject ourselves to daily is objectively reasonable. Ditto for our attitude to bikes.

There is plenty of truth in this. Personal choice plays a huge part also. The choice to ride slightly over and above our potential is up to the individual and not for others to judge. This is all about being individuals. It's not up to the rest of us to throw stones at everyone who takes a spill. I'm sure they don't go out there to do it on purpose.

Katman

6th May 2011, 15:26

Hey KM? Do you detect a note of desperation on the part of some here....

Just a note???

It sounds more like a whole symphony.:violin::violin::violin:

skippa1

6th May 2011, 15:37

Just a note???

It sounds more like a whole symphony.:violin::violin::violin:

Ok, I will bite.....just one more time. You are siding with Katman and I am desperate?:facepalm:

Katman

6th May 2011, 15:48

You are siding with Katman?

Yeah, I usually tend to.

Edbear

6th May 2011, 15:52

Yeah, I usually tend to.

Is that really wise...? :innocent:

Maha

6th May 2011, 15:54

Is that really wise...? :innocent:

Please dont, he'll start another inane poll about how wise do people think he is...:facepalm:

avgas

6th May 2011, 15:59

I keep hearing people say 'humans are only human and humans make mistakes - get over it'.

It begs the question, what is an honest/acceptable mistake?

Is wiping out on a corner at 180kph an honest/acceptable mistake?

Is fucking up a wheelstand and putting yourself in hospital an honest/acceptable mistake?

Is losing half the skin off your leg from wearing shorts when you fall off an honest/acceptable mistake?

I would classify something like a learner rider coming to grief from missing a gear change as an honest/acceptable mistake.
Yep.
Got another term for them that doesn't translate to the word mistake.

You forget that an honest mistake can still be a stupid one.
Mistake means that you have partial ownership of the fuck up.......which from recall was at start down the path of what you were after......

Before you reply to this, have a think - what was the last mistake that you made in anything.......did you know it could happen before it happened?

Mistake are a necessary evil - without them we don't get a reality check. I hope this is your reality check.

Change tact and put your argument forward again with a different angle. I agree with your sentiment, and your key point........but sometime you have as much direction as a 8 year old driving a lorry.

R-Soul

6th May 2011, 16:13

There is plenty of truth in this. Personal choice plays a huge part also. The choice to ride slightly over and above our potential is up to the individual and not for others to judge. This is all about being individuals. It's not up to the rest of us to throw stones at everyone who takes a spill. I'm sure they don't go out there to do it on purpose.

yes, thats a choice for you to make individually - but then dont play the victim after the fact when you dont have sufficent buffer zone for safety:

"It was unavoidable circumstances and completely that dog's fault for running out in front of me."

Because it will be a stick that you cut for your own back, by not riding to the standards of care required for that level of risk (regardless of legal or moral fault).

MSTRS

6th May 2011, 16:22

Katman

6th May 2011, 16:23

You forget that an honest mistake can still be a stupid one.

There's also a difference between a stupid mistake and one that stems from stupidity.

Should mistakes that stem from stupidity or recklessness be considered honest/acceptable mistakes?

An example - if an apprentice mechanic forgets to tighten a sump plug, is that an honest/acceptable mistake? I feel it possibly is - as long as the mistake is not repeated. (The mechanic would still get a bollocking however).

Now what if that mechanic is stoned and forgets to tighten the sump plug? Is that an honest/acceptable mistake? And what if they then repeat the mistake some time later?

Grubber

6th May 2011, 16:28

yes, thats a choice for you to make individually - but then dont play the victim after the fact when you dont have sufficent buffer zone for safety:

"It was unavoidable circumstances and completely that dog's fault for running out in front of me."

Because it will be a stick that you cut for your own back, by not riding to the standards of care required for that level of risk (regardless of legal or moral fault).

Agree to a point. This particular dog may just not left you with too much of a margin, if you get my point.
I know when i crashed i didn't feel i was any sort of victim, just thought "bugger" really.
I think i was more concerned for the woman in the 4x4. Would hate to be the person responsible for someone else's injuries, my fault or NOT.Not really that sure if too many walk around feeling they are a victim in most cases, more just a bit pissed off really. Such is life i reckon.

Edbear

6th May 2011, 16:31

There's also a difference between a stupid mistake and one that stems from stupidity.

Should mistakes that stem from stupidity or recklessness be considered honest/acceptable mistakes?

An example - if a mechanic forgets to tighten a sump plug, is that an honest/acceptable mistake? I feel it possibly is - as long as the mistake is not repeated.

Now what if the mechanic is stoned and forgets to tighten the sump plug? Is that an honest/acceptable mistake? What if they then repeat the mistake?

Being human we will make mistakes, it is inevitable if not desirable, no matter how careful we may normally be. And despite learning from our mistakes, ie: we recognise how it was made and make changes in order not to do it again, we may very well repeat it. We aren't machines, unfortunately. So at what point does it change from honest/acceptable in the context you mean here, and unacceptable?

How does one judge, for example when it's time for a person to quit doing what they are doing because they have become a danger? I feel the answer is more subjective than objective.

The stoned mechanic is never acceptable.

Grubber

6th May 2011, 16:34

There's also a difference between a stupid mistake and one that stems from stupidity.

Should mistakes that stem from stupidity or recklessness be considered honest/acceptable mistakes?

An example - if an apprentice mechanic forgets to tighten a sump plug, is that an honest/acceptable mistake? I feel it possibly is - as long as the mistake is not repeated.

Now what if that mechanic is stoned and forgets to tighten the sump plug? Is that an honest/acceptable mistake? And what if they then repeat the mistake some time later?

In the first instance, the guy should be instructed to make a must do list when replacing parts.
THe 2nd one should be given marching orders right there and then as well as the phone number for rehab and also the notion that he will have your support 100% while doing rehab. Also he should have the knowledge that he will be excepted back when he has made a full recovery so to speak.

BUT, both should be treated as humans that make errors of judgement from time to time.

If one was to murder one of my kids on the other hand, i would be making the judgement.

Katman

6th May 2011, 16:36

How does one judge, for example when it's time for a person to quit doing what they are doing because they have become a danger? I feel the answer is more subjective than objective.

The stoned mechanic is never acceptable.

And that's my point Ed.

Even you seem to figure that there's a line between acceptable and unacceptable.

I'm just wondering out loud where that line lies when it comes to our behaviour on motorcycles.

Katman

6th May 2011, 16:40

Also he should have the knowledge that he will be excepted back when he has made a full recovery so to speak.

Like fuck.

Grubber

6th May 2011, 16:44

Being human we will make mistakes, it is inevitable if not desirable, no matter how careful we may normally be. And despite learning from our mistakes, ie: we recognise how it was made and make changes in order not to do it again, we may very well repeat it. We aren't machines, unfortunately. So at what point does it change from honest/acceptable in the context you mean here, and unacceptable?

How does one judge, for example when it's time for a person to quit doing what they are doing because they have become a danger? I feel the answer is more subjective than objective.

The stoned mechanic is never acceptable.

Splendid reply. Think you have got it nutted out pretty well. Bit too much of a cloudy issue to be fair. I think that line gets drawn through instinct. Gut feeling maybe tells you were that mark lies at any given time.

Edbear

6th May 2011, 16:49

And that's my point Ed.

Even you seem to figure that there's a line between acceptable and unacceptable.

I'm just wondering out loud where that line lies when it comes to our behaviour on motorcycles.

I have always worked on the principle that attitude is the key. I can be very patient and forebearing of those who have the right attitude towards something. Someone observed once that attitude more than aptitude determines altitude. Certainly despite that there will be those who simply shouldn't be riding a bike regardless, but as a general rule it holds true.

So those who make mistakes without taking on the responsibility to learn from them and are blase' about them fall into the unacceptable category in my book. Those who ride the road as though on a race-track are also unacceptable.

I can recall several incidences on NZ roads where I came around a corner to be greeted with an obstacle such as a tractor and thinking to myself, "If I'd been travelling 10km/h faster..." The reason I wasn't going 10km/h faster, was simply because I was on a country road and driving accordingly, knowing that such a situation may well occur. So those who see a great "biking road" with great corners, undulating through the countryside and aim for "the zone" without considering the possibilities around the next corner, are "unacceptable" and if they crash as a result, it is an avoidable accident that needn't have happened.

Katman

6th May 2011, 16:53

I have always worked on the principle that attitude is the key. I can be very patient and forebearing of those who have the right attitude towards something. Someone observed once that attitude more than aptitude determines altitude. Certainly despite that there will be those who simply shouldn't be riding a bike regardless, but as a general rule it holds true.

So those who make mistakes without taking on the responsibility to learn from them and are blase' about them fall into the unacceptable category in my book. Those who ride the road as though on a race-track are also unacceptable.

I can recall several incidences on NZ roads where I came around a corner to be greeted with an obstacle such as a tractor and thinking to myself, "If I'd been travelling 10km/h faster..." The reason I wasn't going 10km/h faster, was simply because I was on a country road and driving accordingly, knowing that such a situation may well occur. So those who see a great "biking road" with great corners, undulating through the countryside and aim for "the zone" without considering the possibilities around the next corner, are "unacceptable" and if they crash as a result, it is an avoidable accident that needn't have happened.

Sorry Ed but that post is just too big to fit in my signature.

Edbear

6th May 2011, 16:58

Sorry Ed but that post is just too big to fit in my signature.

I've often said, "Why use one word when ten will do?" :innocent:

MSTRS

6th May 2011, 17:08

I've often said, "Why use one word when ten will do?" :innocent:

So a longwinded explanation using big words as to why someone might be misguided is better than saying 'You're a cock'.

I'm suffering a little deja vu ...

:innocent:

Edbear

6th May 2011, 17:14

So a longwinded explanation using big words as to why someone might be misguided is better than saying 'You're a cock'.

I'm suffering a little deja vu ...

:innocent:

LOL!! It's called tactful delivery and is designed to gain the person's approval...

MSTRS

6th May 2011, 17:17

LOL!! It's called tactful delivery and is designed to gain the person's approval...

R-i-g-h-t . . .

The theory is fine.

ducatilover

6th May 2011, 17:18

Very well said Edbear :rockon:

Edbear

6th May 2011, 17:21

R-i-g-h-t . . .

The theory is fine.

Many people simply don't think. Many also simply don't understand and need to have things explained in a way that makes sense to them.

You'll see what I mean once you've been married as long as I have... :shutup:

MSTRS

6th May 2011, 17:26

Many people simply don't think. Many also simply don't understand and need to have things explained in a way that makes sense to them.

That's what I used to think. Until I 'met' some who were extra-determined to hold on to their ignorance.

You'll see what I mean once you've been married as long as I have... :shutup:
Oooooh I knoooow...

The Stranger

6th May 2011, 17:34

I keep hearing people say 'humans are only human and humans make mistakes - get over it'.

It begs the question, what is an honest/acceptable mistake?

Is wiping out on a corner at 180kph an honest/acceptable mistake?

Is fucking up a wheelstand and putting yourself in hospital an honest/acceptable mistake?

Is losing half the skin off your leg from wearing shorts when you fall off an honest/acceptable mistake?

I would classify something like a learner rider coming to grief from missing a gear change as an honest/acceptable mistake.

I can see it really is a distinction you genuinely do have a lot of trouble with as you rarely seem to consider this before blundering in.

So just to keep your bitching in perspective - how many have been in here looking for any sympathy for wearing FA gear? or screwing up a corner at 180 KPH or for that matter screwing up a wheelie?
How many do you honestly think don't realise that it's their own stupid fault?

Katman

6th May 2011, 17:39

I can see it really is a distinction you genuinely do have a lot of trouble with as you rarely seem to consider this before blundering in.

So just to keep your bitching in perspective - how many have been in here looking for any sympathy for wearing FA gear? or screwing up a corner at 180 KPH or for that matter screwing up a wheelie?
How many do you honestly think don't realise that it's their own stupid fault?

Try and keep up Noel.

The sympathy factor is only part of it.

Ocean1

6th May 2011, 17:45

I screwed up a wheelie last week.

I must be an evel cnut.

Edbear

6th May 2011, 17:50

I screwed up a wheelie last week.

I must be an evel cnut.

Depends.... Do you want sympathy or a spanking..?

The Stranger

6th May 2011, 17:53

Try and keep up Noel.

The sympathy factor is only part of it.

Sure, but that's not really the point of my post either is it?
It's about human error vs stupidity i.e. the subject of your post.

But as usual, you'll choose to ignore inconvenient truths and duck and weave.

Ocean1

6th May 2011, 17:56

Depends.... Do you want sympathy or a spanking..?

Man you shoulda seen it, was hideous, at 100k the back wheel was a good foot off the ground and at least that off line.

Katman

6th May 2011, 17:57

Edbear

6th May 2011, 18:01

Man you shoulda seen it, was hideous, at 100k the back wheel was a good foot off the ground and at least that off line.

So a spanking, then...

Ocean1

6th May 2011, 18:05

Fuck Noel, with punches like that...

Yeah. It's been obvious for ages you're here for the scraps, not the facts.

Ender EnZed

6th May 2011, 19:01

Your a fuckwit.

*You're

HTH

flyingcrocodile46

6th May 2011, 19:48

Sure, but that's not really the point of my post either is it?
It's about human error vs stupidity i.e. the subject of your post.

But as usual, you'll choose to ignore inconvenient truths and duck and weave.

Face it. Some people are so moronic that they honestly believe that the shit they parrot is some form of revelation that the rest of the world is ignorant of.:yes:

The dumb cunts don't have the simple sense to realise that squirting out the excremental content of their upper bowel into internet forums does no more than confirm their status as mewling shitheads to a far wider pool of people than they would otherwise be able to embarrass themselves in front of in their dull little existences. The dipshits actually get off on it. Scatman is just such a dummy. A very silly simpleminded attention whoring dumbo.

Try and think of him as KB's special little man and let him keep his simplistic outlook on life. He just simply hasn't got the capacity for free thinking comprehension situational analysis and rational conclusion that might be reasonably expected of a typical adult. He's just a parrott echoing a random fart that left an impression in his mind.

flyingcrocodile46

6th May 2011, 19:52

Fuck Noel, with punches like that I could play statues and you'd still miss me by a mile.

I'd like to see that. A statue with a hose running between it's anus and forehead sure would make a tempting target.

skippa1

6th May 2011, 19:57

Face it. Some people are so moronic that they honestly believe that the shit they parrot is some form of revelation that the rest of the world is ignorant of.:yes:

The dumb cunts don't have the simple sense to realise that squirting out the excremental content of their upper bowel into internet forums does no more than confirm their status as mewling shitheads to a far wider pool of people than they would otherwise be able to embarrass themselves in front of in their dull little existences. The dipshits actually get off on it. Scatman is just such a dummy. A very silly simpleminded attention whoring dumbo.

Try and think of him as KB's special little man and let him keep his simplistic outlook on life. He just simply hasn't got the capacity for free thinking comprehension situational analysis and rational conclusion that might be reasonably expected of a typical adult. He's just a parrott echoing a random fart that left an impression in his mind.

This here, what you are saying......is absolute fuckin gold:clap:

skippa1

6th May 2011, 19:59

I'd like to see that. A statue with a hose running between it's anus and forehead sure would make a tempting target.

:killingme absolutly classic

The Stranger

6th May 2011, 20:09

Yeah. It's been obvious for ages you're here for the scraps, not the facts.

Hey, 24 pages of shit and in a couple of posts I can get him to show his true colours.

Katman

6th May 2011, 20:11

Hey, 24 pages of shit and in a couple of posts I can get him to show his true colours.

Wow, you're incredible Noel.

How did you do that?

The Stranger

6th May 2011, 20:22

Wow, you're incredible Noel.

How did you do that?

Come on steve, you know you can't handle the truth.

Katman

6th May 2011, 21:54

Come on steve, you know you can't handle the truth.

That's a lie.

BMWST?

6th May 2011, 22:22

How very short-sighted.

How's this for a scenario?

The government increase the cost of motorcycling to the point where suddenly it's not such an attractive transport alternative and the number of motorcyclists getting into riding start to decrease (sound familiar?). At the same time a number of existing motorcyclists who are not sufficiently passionate about it choose to sell their bikes so our numbers start declining (I'm seeing it happening already). Then the next cost increase repeats the process. Before long there will not be enough motorcyclists out there to have a shit show of standing up to the powers that be. Then it's only a matter of time before they try to remove us completely.

The only way to fight the process is to remove the governments ammunition against us.

so what....is that what you are really worried about.? There aint enough of us now in case you havent noticed

Katman

6th May 2011, 22:26

so what....is that what you are really worried about.? There aint enough of us now in case you havent noticed

Yeah, and we'll be a whole lot stronger when there's less of us. :facepalm:

Grubber

7th May 2011, 08:18

So a longwinded explanation using big words as to why someone might be misguided is better than saying 'You're a cock'.

:innocent:
Ya get it now!!!! Na, probably not!

LOL!! It's called tactful delivery and is designed to gain the person's approval...

You smart boy you, and they have been labeling the rest of us ignorant all this time!

R-i-g-h-t . . .

The theory is fine.
The theory is perfect, since time began!

Many people simply don't think. Many also simply don't understand and need to have things explained in a way that makes sense to them.

You'll see what I mean once you've been married as long as I have... :shutup:
Nailed it EB. It doesn't make them stupid or an idiot, it just means they don't know something we do, they may know something else that we don't, and in this we learn off each other.

That's what I used to think. Until I 'met' some who were extra-determined to hold on to their ignorance.

Oooooh I knoooow...
Ya see, this is the shit i been talking about. You still consider "others" who differ in opinion as ignorant. Here was me thinking you might have got it, but your still a stuck up prick! oh well, no helping some people i guess:facepalm:

I can see it really is a distinction you genuinely do have a lot of trouble with as you rarely seem to consider this before blundering in.

So just to keep your bitching in perspective - how many have been in here looking for any sympathy for wearing FA gear? or screwing up a corner at 180 KPH or for that matter screwing up a wheelie?
How many do you honestly think don't realise that it's their own stupid fault?

You should write a book mate. Title it "Broad and Honest and LOGIC". Yup, great title. You're onto it!

I screwed up a wheelie last week.

I must be an evel cnut.

Don't come near my kids ok!:angry:

Sure, but that's not really the point of my post either is it?
It's about human error vs stupidity i.e. the subject of your post.

But as usual, you'll choose to ignore inconvenient truths and duck and weave.

Keeps him fit i think. Very selective about what they want to hear. If it doesn't suit their argument, then YOU are just ignorant.

Grubber

7th May 2011, 08:24

So a longwinded explanation using big words as to why someone might be misguided is better than saying 'You're a cock'.

:innocent:
Ya get it now!!!! Na, probably not!

LOL!! It's called tactful delivery and is designed to gain the person's approval...

You smart buy you, and they have been labeling the rest of us ignorant all this time!

R-i-g-h-t . . .

The theory is fine.
The theory is perfect, since time began!

Many people simply don't think. Many also simply don't understand and need to have things explained in a way that makes sense to them.

You'll see what I mean once you've been married as long as I have... :shutup:
Nailed it EB. It doesn't make them stupid or an idiot, it just means they don't know something we do, they may know something else that we don't, and in this we learn off each other.

That's what I used to think. Until I 'met' some who were extra-determined to hold on to their ignorance.

Oooooh I knoooow...
Ya see, this is the shit i been talking about. You still consider "others" who differ in opinion as ignorant. Here was me thinking you might have got it, but your still a stuck up prick! oh well, no helping some people i guess:facepalm:
Red rep me all ya like MRSTS. It's not like i would ever be offended by anything you do to me, it's not like i care about you or anything so therefore doesn't effect me.

I can see it really is a distinction you genuinely do have a lot of trouble with as you rarely seem to consider this before blundering in.

So just to keep your bitching in perspective - how many have been in here looking for any sympathy for wearing FA gear? or screwing up a corner at 180 KPH or for that matter screwing up a wheelie?
How many do you honestly think don't realise that it's their own stupid fault?

You should write a book mate. Title it "Broad and Honest and LOGIC". Yup, great title. You're onto it!

I screwed up a wheelie last week.

I must be an evel cnut.

Don't come near my kids ok!:angry:

Sure, but that's not really the point of my post either is it?
It's about human error vs stupidity i.e. the subject of your post.

But as usual, you'll choose to ignore inconvenient truths and duck and weave.

Keeps him fit i think. Very selective about what they want to hear. If it doesn't suit their argument, then YOU are just ignorant.

MSTRS

8th May 2011, 10:16

...general judgemental pigeonholing and personal abuse...
Red rep me all ya like MRSTS. It's not like i would ever be offended by anything you do to me, it's not like i care about you or anything so therefore doesn't effect me.

And what a marvellous job you are doing in showing it...

R-Soul

10th May 2011, 14:54

aim for "the zone" without considering the possibilities around the next corner, are "unacceptable" and if they crash as a result, it is an avoidable accident that needn't have happened.

Hey dont trash the Zone! When you are in the zone, you are in a state of ultimate awareness, and the safest you will ever be while riding...

Maha

10th May 2011, 14:56

Hey dont trash the Zone! When you are in the zone, you are in a state of ultimate awareness, and the safest you will ever be while riding...

...and then a tractor enters your side of the road from a farm race just over a brow of a hill..:shit:

R-Soul

11th May 2011, 14:09

...and then a tractor enters your side of the road from a farm race just over a brow of a hill..:shit:

And because your awareness is right up there, and you are riding to the coditons (the Zone does not mean riding fast), you see him earlier than if you were dawdling along, counting daisies at the side of the road.

motor_mayhem

11th May 2011, 15:12

I think what everyone has to acknowledge for here is that care/safety concerns is one of the factors of riding a bike but to most it is not the only concern - if it was then noone would be riding bikes because, like it or not, the shell of a car will provide you with more protection than you can ever receive on a bike. I am sure we'd all be a lot safer if the speed limit was 20kmh but then we'd also not be able to go the distances we can when the speed limit is 100kmh. So then the next question you have to ask yourself is where your value care vs value of other factors - function, fun, legality etc. lie. To apply that I guess you could say for example when coming to a corner do you ride as fast as your bike will go around the corner? the current speed limit? the recommended speed limit? Some proportion of the recommended speed limit that would allow you to be able to move off the road and control your bike to a stop should another vehicle be coming round the corner on the wrong side of the road?

One more q for katman:
What are you really hoping to achieve by presenting, in what most would deem a very blunt way, what you think would be the correct course of action? In all seriousness are you thinking that this will make other see what you believe to be the error of their ways or are you just wanting to remind the person that your values system would have resulted in a different outcome?

Katman

11th May 2011, 15:17

One more q for katman:
What are you really hoping to achieve by presenting, in what most would deem a very blunt way, what you think would be the correct course of action? In all seriousness are you thinking that this will make other see what you believe to be the error of their ways or are you just wanting to remind the person that your values system would have resulted in a different outcome?

I thought I'd been making it quite clear.

If we don't start pulling our heads out of our arses and start doing a better job of staying upright we won't be enjoying the motorcycling liberties, that we currently do, for much longer.

The Stranger

11th May 2011, 15:27

Katman

11th May 2011, 15:31

Or paraphrase, he wants us all to give in to blackmail.

That's not a very well thought out argument though, is it Noel?

That's like saying "I know this accident's going to hurt me but I'm going to go ahead and have the fucking thing anyway just to teach you a lesson for charging me more."

motor_mayhem

11th May 2011, 16:51

I thought I'd been making it quite clear.

If we don't start pulling our heads out of our arses and start doing a better job of staying upright we won't be enjoying the motorcycling liberties, that we currently do, for much longer.

Ok so you really want to convince other people the error of their ways? How well would you say your current method of bluntly telling people how you think it is, occasionally verging on insulting their intelligence and/or ability, is working?

The Stranger

11th May 2011, 20:14

That's not a very well thought out argument though, is it Noel?

I guess not, I guess we are better to all just do what the government tell us to do, because after all, they really do know what's best for us and what we want.

Katman

11th May 2011, 20:16

I guess not, I guess we are better to all just do what the government tell us to do, because after all, they really do know what's best for us and what we want.

Fucks sake Noel, open your eyes.

It's not about what the government thinks is best for us - it's about what we think is best for us.

Do you want to see a reduction in motorcycle accidents or not?

oneofsix

11th May 2011, 20:20

Or paraphrase, he wants us all to give in to blackmail.

blackmail is the wrong term, try extortion. Its not about motorcyclists having secrets, it is more like the powerful threatening the less powerful.

Kickaha

11th May 2011, 20:32

Or paraphrase, he wants us all to give in to blackmail.

No he doesn't, he wants to give them no excuses for being able to single motorcyclists out

The Stranger

11th May 2011, 20:33

Fucks sake Noel, open your eyes.

It's not about what the government thinks is best for us - it's about what we think is best for us.

Do you want to see a reduction in motorcycle accidents or not?

For fucks sake Steve, say what you mean.

When asked what you you were hoping to achieve you responded

"If we don't start pulling our heads out of our arses and start doing a better job of staying upright we won't be enjoying the motorcycling liberties, that we currently do, for much longer."

Another quote for you - from a dictionary this time. "Liberty is a concept of political philosophy and identifies the condition in which an individual has the right to act according to his or her own will."

By all means set out your goals and let's debate them - as you indicate is your wish to see. But it would be handy to know what we are debating first and second it could be constructive if you would actually address (enter into debate on) the issues that you raise.

Katman

11th May 2011, 20:40

For fucks sake Steve, say what you mean.

Ok, at the moment we have certain motorcycling liberties (which are steadily being erroded). It is in our best interest to protect those remaining liberties by not giving the powers that be any more excuses to single us out. We can only achieve that by proving ourselves to be better than they seem to think we are.

If we continue to have the number of avoidable accidents that we are having we are simply playing straight into their hands.

Ocean1

11th May 2011, 21:29

Ok, at the moment we have certain motorcycling liberties (which are steadily being erroded). It is in our best interest to protect those liberties by not giving the powers that be any more excuses to single us out. We can only achieve that by proving ourselves to be better than they seem to think we are.

If we continue to have the number of avoidable accidents that we are having we are simply playing straight into their hands.

Dude, I hope you've got a B plan, 'cause you're going to need it.

The fact that they lie about the costs of those liberties should give you a clue, they don't care what the facts are, they'll single us out whatever accidents we manage to avoid.

The reality is that not only is the sort of change in behaviour you propose extremely unlikely to happen but it wouldn't protect your liberty anyway, they'd just move the goalposts like they did last time.

If you focused your attention on countering the bureaucratic bullshit used to justify the changes you'd have a better return for your effort.

flyingcrocodile46

11th May 2011, 21:30

Fucks sake Noel, open your eyes.

It's not about what the government thinks is best for us - it's about what Me think is best for us.

Do you want to see a reduction in motorcycle accidents or not?

I fixed that little typo for you.:yes: No need to thank me.

flyingcrocodile46

11th May 2011, 21:32

If you focused your attention on countering the bureaucratic bullshit used to justify the changes you'd have a better return for your effort.
:clap::clap::clap:

Katman

11th May 2011, 21:33

If you focused your attention on countering the bureaucratic bullshit used to justify the changes you'd have a better return for your effort.

You focus on your brick wall.

I'm busy with my own. :brick:

The Stranger

11th May 2011, 23:16

Ok, at the moment we have certain motorcycling liberties (which are steadily being erroded). It is in our best interest to protect those remaining liberties by not giving the powers that be any more excuses to single us out. We can only achieve that by proving ourselves to be better than they seem to think we are.

If we continue to have the number of avoidable accidents that we are having we are simply playing straight into their hands.

I'm still reading that pretty much as an exercise in accounting Steve.
Now, I know that's not exactly what you said. But by the same token I haven't heard squat from the govt specifically re the effect motorcyclists are having on our road death goals, only really on the subject of cost.
Accounting, at least to my untrained eye just seems to be about fiddling numbers. Dice them another way and the whole problem goes away. For example very many motorcyclists use the road for recreation. When rugby players fuck themselves up doing their recreation shit no one says squat. 50% of our ACC (at least) should be being paid for by the recreation fund. There, problem fixed, no government moaning, no work for katman and we all live happily ever after.
So, perhaps your energy could be better employed being directed at the appropriate problem - Government accounting. Sure there are others doing this, but they lack your special shall we say "tact" Steve.

I can't help the feeling that you are the guy trying to institute safe adventure playgrounds.
We all hate that guy (well we did at least, times have probably changed now though). It's bad enough when that guy is the government, but now we have the people taking over the roll of nanny state.
I don't want someone killing me, but I don't want saving from myself either thank you.

Katman

11th May 2011, 23:20

I don't want someone killing me,

He could be just around the corner on a motorcycle Noel.

A case in point is the current thread about the rider who appears gutted about writing off his motorcycle, thankful he was wearing adequate gear but doesn't seem to show the slightest degree of contrition for the fact that another motorcycle could have been coming in the other direction straight into the path of his out of control motorcycle.

Too many motorcyclists seem to lack any sense of consideration for anyone else sharing the road with them.

The Stranger

11th May 2011, 23:33

Ok, at the moment we have certain motorcycling liberties (which are steadily being erroded). It is in our best interest to protect those remaining liberties by not giving the powers that be any more excuses to single us out. We can only achieve that by proving ourselves to be better than they seem to think we are.

If we continue to have the number of avoidable accidents that we are having we are simply playing straight into their hands.

Did you watch "Justice - what's the right thing to do?" on 7 per chance on Monday evening. Fooken awesome program!! Anyway politics was discussed and an interesting point came out of that. Aristotle maintained that politics was awesomeness and that to be awesome one therefore had to practise politics.
Why the need to practise? Politics can't be learnt from a book. It has to be experienced, it has to felt, to learn the nuances and subtleties you must do it. Just as a good guitar player can't simply read a book - or simply be shouted at or abused - to become a great guitar player.

Are accidents avoidable?
Sure, I venture to think all are - one way or another. But in my quest to be an awesome rider, I'm going to make a mistake or 2. That's the nature of the beast. No amount of shouting, screaming or badgering is going to change that. Some education may though.

First time I low sided (was at a track) I just biffed it (lots of fun actually). Second time I had more experience and held my knee out to prop the bike up - which worked till the peg snapped off. Third time, well I didn't low side, braced my knee the bike slid then hooked up. They didn't teach me that in a book (though I have read many).
Am I awesome? Shit no, but I'll keep trying and guess what, I'll probably make a mistake or 2 whilst I am - provided some well intentioned do gooder hasn't made the playground too safe.

Katman

11th May 2011, 23:37

Am I awesome? Shit no, but I'll keep trying and guess what, I'll probably make a mistake or 2 whilst I am - provided some well intentioned do gooder hasn't made the playground too safe.

Maybe your impression of what it is that would make you awesome is the problem Noel.

You don't have to be the fastest around a corner to be awesome.

It does help to be alive if you want to be awesome though.

The Stranger

11th May 2011, 23:44

He could be just around the corner on a motorcycle Noel.

A case in point is the current thread about the rider who appears gutted about writing off his motorcycle, thankful he was wearing adequate gear but doesn't seem to show the slightest degree of contrition for the fact that another motorcycle could have been coming in the other direction straight into the path of his out of control motorcycle.

Too many motorcyclists seem to lack any sense of consideration for anyone else sharing the road with them.

Yeah, I'll give you that, and confess I don't have an answer. But I'm still not prepared to throw the baby out with the bath water just yet.

To be honest, I know it's kind of brutal but I have an philosophy.
People die on the roads. We all know this and whether we like it or not we all accept it. We may not think we do, but come on, if you drive on the road knowing that people die on the road how can you not accept it?
It is inevitable.

One day, one of those people may be me. I may be hit by some numpty doing stupid shit on a motorcycle. I may be hit by a car driver looking right at me whilst pulling out only to claim he didn't see me. I know this, but I still ride on the road.

Not saying I'll like it if I get hit and/or killed - or worse, but how much can I really complain? I knew the risks.

That is of course no reason to actively increase the risk or to not try and minimise them.

Katman

11th May 2011, 23:46

Grubber

12th May 2011, 06:46

Grubber

12th May 2011, 06:50

Grubber

12th May 2011, 07:02

Dude, I hope you've got a B plan, 'cause you're going to need it.

The fact that they lie about the costs of those liberties should give you a clue, they don't care what the facts are, they'll single us out whatever accidents we manage to avoid.

The reality is that not only is the sort of change in behaviour you propose extremely unlikely to happen but it wouldn't protect your liberty anyway, they'd just move the goalposts like they did last time.

If you focused your attention on countering the bureaucratic bullshit used to justify the changes you'd have a better return for your effort.

Plenty of truth in that. THe "pick on the motorcyclist" moments will be gone again soon...soon as they find someone else to pick on. Next one will be the student loans, well that's my guess anyway.

Maha

12th May 2011, 07:40

Which do you consider more 'awesome' Noel?

The fastest rider who one day fucks up a corner killing himself and the poor sod coming the other way, or the old guy who's ridden all his life and gotten a lifetime of enjoyment out of motorcycling?

I tend to agree in part.
If things go wrong at the track, the fault is generally with you and your actions.
On the road however, not so, very rearly would someone stick their hand up and say ''well I fucked that up didn't I''?

Edbear

12th May 2011, 08:07

Did you watch "Justice - what's the right thing to do?" on 7 per chance on Monday evening. Fooken awesome program!! Anyway politics was discussed and an interesting point came out of that. Aristotle maintained that politics was awesomeness and that to be awesome one therefore had to practise politics.
Why the need to practise? Politics can't be learnt from a book. It has to be experienced, it has to felt, to learn the nuances and subtleties you must do it. Just as a good guitar player can't simply read a book - or simply be shouted at or abused - to become a great guitar player.

Are accidents avoidable?
Sure, I venture to think all are - one way or another. But in my quest to be an awesome rider, I'm going to make a mistake or 2. That's the nature of the beast. No amount of shouting, screaming or badgering is going to change that. Some education may though.

First time I low sided (was at a track) I just biffed it (lots of fun actually). Second time I had more experience and held my knee out to prop the bike up - which worked till the peg snapped off. Third time, well I didn't low side, braced my knee the bike slid then hooked up. They didn't teach me that in a book (though I have read many).
Am I awesome? Shit no, but I'll keep trying and guess what, I'll probably make a mistake or 2 whilst I am - provided some well intentioned do gooder hasn't made the playground too safe.

Maybe your impression of what it is that would make you awesome is the problem Noel.

You don't have to be the fastest around a corner to be awesome.

It does help to be alive if you want to be awesome though.

I tend to agree in part.
If things go wrong at the track, the fault is generally with you and your actions.
On the road however, no so, very rearly would someone stick their hand up and say ''well I fucked that up didn't I''?

Practise makes perfect, sure, and the best place to practice and improve as a rider by exploring your limits is at the track. It you stuff it up there you are in the safest place to do so and most unlikely to kill and injure yourself or others. Everyone at the track is there by choice and generally for the same purpose and riding to the same conditions.

The public road is just that, a public thoroughfare with everyone going in all directions and for all purposes with widely varying skills and experience and as such the conditions are very unpredictable and should be assessed as such. Of course, there are no track fees to pay on the road and we all enjoy our bikes and riding and we are sorely tempted to wick it up from time to time.

I will confess that over 40 years of biking has seen me exceeding 160km/h many times and for long distances, generally many years ago when traffic was a lot lighter and slower than today. I've had a couple of close calls, ironically never while going that fast and have managed to never crash.

Why? I chose very deliberately where and when to do these speeds and was always aware of my surroundings and exercised caution. Those were also the days when tractors could only do less than half the speeds they can today and when droving animals on the roads was a common method of getting them from one place to the other. Sheep, cattle and horses were frequently on the main and secondary roads and overtaking lanes were rare.

Recent years have seen me reach my fastest speed ever on the road and was in suitable conditions with the only traffic being the three bikes accompanying me. My bikes have always been registered and warranted and up to standard, I've always worn the right gear, and the only accident I've ever had was exactly 12 months ago today at 8:45am in a van at less than 50km/h when I slid on oil.

My point? THINK before you wind that throttle on!

terbang

12th May 2011, 08:20

Perhaps the motorcycle world could also follow the lead of the medical profession and adopt the aviation safety model. It works well though it would also prove the Katmans of this world to be dinosaurs.

Katman

12th May 2011, 08:27

Perhaps the motorcycle world could also follow the lead of the medical profession and adopt the aviation safety model.

That sounds interesting. Care to elaborate?

oneofsix

12th May 2011, 08:36

Katman

12th May 2011, 08:58

Perhaps the motorcycle world could also follow the lead of the medical profession and adopt the aviation safety model.

It raises an interesting point.

Does the aviation industry tolerate honest mistakes? If they do I'm sure it would be with very strict provisos. Do they tolerate mistakes through stupidity? I would imagine definitely not.

Does the medical profession tolerate honest mistakes? Once again - not lightly. Do they tolerate mistakes through stupidity? Most definitely not.

So why should motorcyclists get away with the attitude of "Meh, people die - get over it"?

Edbear

12th May 2011, 09:01

Edbear you make several good points.
From reading other discussions on KB I would point out that track is not road and track practices do not always translate well to the road. But if you want to fang it use the track.
To be sarcastic, if the lycra brigade are allowed to practice for their racing whilst commuting on public roads why not the leather brigade. :shutup: :facepalm:
I note an under current of speed doesn't kill there Edbear :yes: but this is where the Govt. is putting the effort. Easier to target than safe driving and makes better sound bytes. Personally I have had several offs but all at low speed. I too have exceeded the 160k but at a time and place where there was minimal risk.there is never no risk This is why I will still call the current speed policing a scam, 4k over on straight deserted roads makes a massive difference, pass the Tui :drinkup: especially when I always spot the cops policing areas which are not accident prone but everyone speeds through.

Speed, per se, has never killed anyone which is why the human being has survived space travel, land speed records and so on. It's the unexpected and very sudden stop that does the damage and the faster you are going the more damage is caused if you crash. The likelihood of crashing also increases as safety margins are squeezed tighter and tighter with less time and space for making corrections, alterations and for avoidance of hazards.

Distances increase for reaction times and steering and braking inputs result in much slower alterations in one's course of travel. So the faster you are going, the more likely you are to be hurt or killed in an accident and the more likely you are to have an accident. ergo, risk increases with speed and needs to be considered and managed accordingly. Far too many riders/drivers are unsafe at even moderate speeds so driver training and education are necessary to a far greater degree than currently legislated for.

I don't blame the roads as they are generally better than they were back in the old days and both cars and bikes are far superior as regards, safety and handling than ever before so why, for example, there are so many bad accidents through the Dome Valley when the road is better than in the '70's when I was going 100mph through there daily, is solely due to driver incompetence IMHO.

skippa1

12th May 2011, 09:27

It raises an interesting point.

Does the aviation industry tolerate honest mistakes? If they do I'm sure it would be with very strict provisos. Do they tolerate mistakes through stupidity? I would imagine definitely not.

Does the medical profession tolerate honest mistakes? Once again - not lightly. Do they tolerate mistakes through stupidity? Most definitely not.

So why should motorcyclists get away with the attitude of "Meh, people die - get over it"?

Putting our differences to one side for a moment,
Thats not really an apples with apples comparison. Both those flying planes, and practicing medicine, go through significant training programs, costing the individual significant amounts of money over several years and they are professions that they carry out for maybe 8-10 hours a day 5 days a week once qualified?
I hazard a guess that if there were a motorcycle school that had to put every person that wanted to ride a bike through a 6 year training program and a multitude of tests or exams, then they practiced 8-10 hours a day 5 days a week, and had to do regular updates and exams, then there would be a significant reduction in crashes.
For most of us, riding a bike isnt a profession.

Swoop

12th May 2011, 09:30

Practise makes perfect, sure...
Perhaps that mantra should be "Perfect practice makes perfect"?

Simply practicing the same mistakes over and over again (without rectifying the problem) merely reinforces the bad habit.

terbang

12th May 2011, 09:32

For a start, aviation figured that by virtue of what they do, accidents and incidents (there's a new term) will happen so the thrust is to minimize the risk through procedure, training and legislation. With a major focus on threat and error management, training in human factors and behavior along with making the environment and the machines safer.

Aviation now investigates their accidents in a systemic fashion using a non blame (finger pointing) manner so that lessons can be taken. When the human factor problems are identified they are generally trained out, not legislated out.

The James Reason Swiss Cheese model (http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/aviation:accident-causation-model) shows that it is not one thing that causes an accident. When training pilots we are mainly training in the latent and active failures, where I notice a lot of the focus in threads like this is only in the active.

The old days of blaming one individual (caused by pilot error), punishing them while remaining myopic to the fact that a large piece of aluminium moving through the sky controlled by humans is always at risk of having an accident are gone. Hull losses do happen and the aim of the game is to keep it to a minimum. Aviation is also very good at putting their money where their mouth is. Safety=$ and they do spend time to discover the many causes of any incident. If we could fit 500 passengers on a motorcycle, then we too could afford a better safety system.

However the biggest influence has been with the humans. Choosing the right ones (all the gung ho has been weeded out), educating the educators who in turn educate and examine us on a regular basis.

The stats (though I hate the term) are indisputable and out there proving that the aviation industry has turned itself around. That is why the medical profession has looked towards aviation to improve safety.

Edbear

12th May 2011, 09:34

Perhaps that mantra should be "Perfect practice makes perfect"?

Simply practicing the same mistakes over and over again (without rectifying the problem) merely reinforces the bad habit.

True, which is where training is vital to improvement. If one doesn't know what to do they may only ever stumble upon it by accident...

terbang

12th May 2011, 09:57

My answers in CAPITALS (not shouting though)

It raises an interesting point.

Does the aviation industry tolerate honest mistakes? YES OF COURSE THEY DO
If they do I'm sure it would be with very strict provisos. TRAINING

Do they tolerate mistakes through stupidity I would imagine definitely not. WE CALL IT HAZARDOUS ATTITUDES BUT THAT CAN DEPEND ON MAY OTHER PRECURSORS THAT WILL ALSO NEED TO BE IDENTIFIED

Does the medical profession tolerate honest mistakes? Once again - not lightly. Do they tolerate mistakes through stupidity? Most definitely not.
DUNNO IM NOT A DOCTOR, BUT THEY ARE CURRENTLY LOOKING TOWARD AVIATION FOR SOME ANSWERS

So why should motorcyclists get away with the attitude of "Meh, people die - get over it"?
POSSIBLY AS A RESULT OF THE REALITY OF WHAT WE DO.

When I see a biker down thread, I believe that those who are lending a sympathetic ear (often vocal about cars, roads, police etc) are not mitigating the likely errors of the rider, but rather are in their own way recognizing that the rider was a victim of a systemic or chain of events that led to the accident.

skippa1

12th May 2011, 10:33

My answers in CAPITALS (not shouting though)

When I see a biker down thread, I believe that those who are lending a sympathetic ear (often vocal about cars, roads, police etc) are not mitigating the likely errors of the rider, but rather are in their own way recognizing that the rider was a victim of a systemic or chain of events that led to the accident.

Agreed, in fact I simplify it even further by saying that sometimes its just compassion for another human being as they have hurt themselves doing something they like.

Katman

12th May 2011, 10:34

but rather are in their own way recognizing that the rider was a victim of a systemic or chain of events that led to the accident.

Or they could just be conveniently turning a blind eye to the glaring fact that the number 1 contributing factor to the accident was reckless/careless management by the rider.

(And before anyone jumps up and down, I'm not saying every accident falls into that category, but many definitely do).

Ocean1

12th May 2011, 11:47

The James Reason Swiss Cheese model (http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/aviation:accident-causation-model) shows that it is not one thing that causes an accident.

It's a good tool eh? Useful in helping describes the real world factors contributing to any event.

Couple of points. Medical profession already use similar methodology in investigating adverse outcomes. One of the difficulties in implementing it is the propensity for the family of the affected person to assign blame, legally and otherwise. Usually without sufficient evidence. Thing is, it takes a cultural shift by everyone to make that tool work, all interested parties have to adopt the scientific method (tm) otherwise data gets hidden, distorted, mis-used and blatantly manufactured.

Secondly, both professions, (pilots and medical professionals) are pre-selected for conservative behaviour by years of skill-specific training. That’s not going to ever happen WRT general transport drivers riders.

What to do? Close off the more obvious holes without interfering too much with peoples lives and then accept that using the road means casualties.

Ocean1

12th May 2011, 11:51

Katman

12th May 2011, 11:54

What's FACT is that EVERY accident has many many factors that have to fall true before the accident occurs. Quite a few of those are able to be managed, some completely eliminated. Human behaviour isn't one of those. Get used to it.

Human behaviour is very often the very first step in that chain of factors.

Remove or alter any one step and the outcome also alters.

oneofsix

12th May 2011, 11:59

Aviation and medical address the other contributing factors as well as the human factor. As stated we don't get to pick and chose the humans that ride bikes and there is an wave of new or returning riders that would not usually consider a bike. every time someone tries to start a thread to discuss addressing the non-rider factors it gets hijacked by people beating the same drum. If the roads can be rebuilt and redirected for the sake of heavy transport then whats wrong with a growing group of motorcyclists asking that their needs also be addressed?

Katman

12th May 2011, 12:04

oneofsix

12th May 2011, 12:06

And that's the problem.

Too many people expect every other factor to be changed instead of realising the easiest answer is to change the factor that they add to the equation.

well mis-read sir and a perfect example of the hijack

Maha

12th May 2011, 12:07

Human behaviour is very often the very first step in that chain of factors.

Remove or alter any one step and the outcome also alters.

Once again I have to agree (damn thats twice today):angry:
Conditions are not in control of your bike, you are.
And by being in control, the decisions that you make at any one time can effect what happens within the next few seconds or so, cos' thats all it takes.

Katman

12th May 2011, 12:10

well mis-read sir and a perfect example of the hijack

I didn't mis-read it at all.

Imagine you were one of those slices of Swiss Cheese.

Instead of trying to arrange to have any one of the other slices moved around would it not be easier to just take one step to the side yourself?

Ocean1

12th May 2011, 12:37

Human behaviour is very often the very first step in that chain of factors.

Remove or alter any one step and the outcome also alters.

Correct. But you can't change that variable.

And that's the problem.

Too many people expect every other factor to be changed instead of realising the easiest answer is to change the factor that they add to the equation.

It's not the easiest factor to change, though. It's so difficult to change general population behaviour that no single government has ever managed it without resorting to direct force.

Most other organisations attempting to do it are called religions. You’re too abrasive to have much effect, there, but feel free to offer sermons. I’ll be busy.

Katman

12th May 2011, 12:40

It's not the easiest factor to change, though. It's so difficult to change general population behaviour that no single government has ever managed it without resorting to direct force.

It's not about trying to change others though.

It's about trying to make people realise the gains to be had from changing themselves.

People changing themselves is a piece of piss.

Ocean1

12th May 2011, 12:53

It's not about trying to change others though.

It's about trying to make people realise the gains to be had from changing themselves.

People changing themselves is a piece of piss.

Perhaps. But any suggestion that they need to change presupposes that they haven't got valid reasons to behave the way they do. It's insulting.

You're free to behave how you think suits you best. So is everyone else.

Katman

12th May 2011, 12:59

Perhaps. But any suggestion that they need to change presupposes that they haven't got valid reasons to behave the way they do. It's insulting.

You're free to behave how you think suits you best. So is everyone else.

Refer post #399.

terbang

12th May 2011, 13:12

Or they could just be conveniently turning a blind eye to the glaring fact that the number 1 contributing factor to the accident was reckless/careless management by the rider.

(And before anyone jumps up and down, I'm not saying every accident falls into that category, but many definitely do).

You are missing the point, there is no real number 1 contributing factor. The final act (say went wide on a LH bend and hit a car) along with the latent failures (poor training, hazardous attitudes, bad road, poor maintenance ETC) that may have been sitting there for years will lead to the real number one. An accident. In the case of the Swiss cheese model, all the holes lined up, an accident is inevitable.

Though as pilots, surgeons, riders we are the last line of defence and history has proven that we aren't too good at that.

In aviation we got rid of this ancient finger pointing exercise shortly after NZ's biggest single loss of life, the Mt Erebus incident, and learnt how to establish the causes of accidents for the purpose of prevention.

In other words, we started to learn from our mistakes!

oneofsix

12th May 2011, 13:19

I didn't mis-read it at all.

Imagine you were one of those slices of Swiss Cheese.

Instead of trying to arrange to have any one of the other slices moved around would it not be easier to just take one step to the side yourself?

so one rider side steps their hole but due to inexperience or a greater distracting factor or some other holey slice the next rider can't. Well done you've saved yourself at the expense of others. And yes you mis-read or more exactly choose what you read and ignored the rest.
Also refer Terbangs last post.

The Stranger

12th May 2011, 13:30

Maybe your impression of what it is that would make you awesome is the problem Noel.

You don't have to be the fastest around a corner to be awesome.

It does help to be alive if you want to be awesome though.

Perhaps, but it's not about me (that was an example about learning).
For Jonny awesome may be a hill start, for Mary awesome may be a U turn etc.

Don't we all strive to be better at what we do?
Are you satisfied with mediocrity in your work, or as a parent, lover etc?
If I'm going to be bothered doing something, I'm going to give it my best - try and improve, lern and better myself (as per previous post) that's just human nature isn't it? Would you rather remove that attitude from human nature?

Well awesomeness very often outlast death Katman and the good thing about death in such circumstances is that you rarely fall from grace thereafter so the legend lives on.

The Stranger

12th May 2011, 13:38

Which do you consider more 'awesome' Noel?

The fastest rider who one day fucks up a corner killing himself and the poor sod coming the other way, or the old guy who's ridden all his life and gotten a lifetime of enjoyment out of motorcycling?

Well, as I've often said.
I'd rather live than be alive - and if that kills me so be it.
If you'd care to give me an example of the latter though, because the only ones I know are old lonely sad fucks otherwise I'll take Paul (Beyond) over any of them any day thank you.
He's a hell of a nice guy, quiet, reserved, polite, friendly, well spoken and fast.

Ender EnZed

12th May 2011, 13:39

Perhaps. But any suggestion that they need to change presupposes that they haven't got valid reasons to behave the way they do. It's insulting.

I'm sure everyone has a valid reason for riding dangerously. It's easier. I don't think that means we should accept it.

You're free to behave how you think suits you best. So is everyone else.

This simply isn't the case though. We do not live in anarchy. There are any number of things that I can't do even though it would suit me better to do so.

Riding at 100mph on SH1 is an example. I could do this but if I kept it up then sooner or later there would be consequences that would eventually result in me going to jail. It suits some people to rape and murder.

Why should we hold back from saying anything that could be interpreted (quite rightly so in some cases) as offensive or interfering when we see or hear about someone behaving in a way that they (and everyone else) would clearly be better off not to? Is it just that their feelings might get hurt?

Katman

12th May 2011, 13:40

so one rider side steps their hole but due to inexperience or a greater distracting factor or some other holey slice the next rider can't. Well done you've saved yourself at the expense of others. And yes you mis-read or more exactly choose what you read and ignored the rest.
Also refer Terbangs last post.

Do you really think each accident is governed by the same slices of cheese?

Everybody has the ability to step to the side within their own set of slices.

Ender EnZed

12th May 2011, 13:45

Though as pilots, surgeons, riders we are the last line of defence and history has proven that we aren't too good at that.

We might not be too good at it but we're still better at it than we are at changing anything else.

oneofsix

12th May 2011, 13:46

Do you really think each accident is governed by the same slices of cheese?
There you go, selective reading again. Try this bit "but due to inexperience or a greater distracting factor or some other holey slice the next rider can't." Part of my point is the bits that aren't the rider are the more constant problems and therefore give more bang for buck in fixing and they can't fix themselves. The rider on the other hand has a very personal reason to fix their riding and I believe you are currently trying to confuse 'The Stranger' on this subject, unsuccessfully I should add.
The rider fix has to come from within. Negativity will not assist this.
Lets fix the environment we all ride in.

Katman

12th May 2011, 13:50

Try this bit "but due to inexperience or a greater distracting factor or some other holey slice the next rider can't."

Sure, accidents caused by inexperience or distraction are not as deserving of condemnation as those caused by recklessness.

But inexperience or distraction are still factors very much within our control.

MSTRS

12th May 2011, 13:57

...
Conditions are not in control of your bike, you are...

That's definitely quote material.

Ocean1

12th May 2011, 13:57

I'm sure everyone has a valid reason for riding dangerously. It's fun. I don't think that means we should accept it.

How dangerous? Who gets to decide? There's no arbitrary limit on what level of risk is acceptable.

Riding at 100mph on SH1 is an example. I could do this but if I kept it up then sooner or later there would be consequences that would eventually result in me going to jail. It suits some people to rape and murder.

If you ride at 100kph on SH1 you'll encounter consequences. How long depends on many things, some of them under your control, some not.

All the bleating on the topic comes from people who want OTHER PEOPLE to change. If you allow that then where does it stop? There's people who want SOMETHING done about most aspects of other peoples' behaviour. Follow that to it's logical conclusion. There's already laws restricting a wider range of bejaviour than at any time in history.

The rape and murder thing isn't worthy of a reply.

MSTRS

12th May 2011, 14:17

All the bleating on the topic comes from people who want OTHER PEOPLE to change.

There is much more bleating coming from those who don't like being told they should change. They may not believe that they have any need to change, and put up as many arguments against that as there are stars in the sky.
While KM (and others, myself included) keep putting forward just the one argument for change..."The rider is responsible for all that happens to them. Usually."

oneofsix

12th May 2011, 14:21

There is much more bleating coming from those who don't like being told they should change. They may not believe that they have any need to change, and put up as many arguments against that as there are stars in the sky.
While KM (and others, myself included) keep putting forward just the one argument for change..."The rider is responsible for all that happens to them. Usually."

such a simplistic argument you could be forgiven for thinking it came from morons. No other factor but the rider, no weather, no road conditions, no other road users, no bike, nothing but rider. :facepalm:

MSTRS

12th May 2011, 14:49

such a simplistic argument you could be forgiven for thinking it came from morons. No other factor but the rider, no weather, no road conditions, no other road users, no bike, nothing but rider. :facepalm:

Strange how it sometimes seems that morons can actually see the simple truth of something.
The statement "The rider is responsible for all that happens to them. Usually" is simplistic in the extreme. It doesn't have to be complicated by a load of "but what ifs".

Would you hit the picks hard, in the wet, on a painted roadmarking?
No, I hear you say.
Well, why not, I'd ask.
Because the grip is not as good as on clear chip, or in the dry, and I'm likely to lock up the front and drop the bike.
Well, says I, isn't that you being responsible?
It is up to you, the rider, to choose what is best to suit the conditions you face. That includes what sort of bike you are on, your skill level and experience, the kind of road, other traffic, weather etc.

oneofsix

12th May 2011, 15:04

Strange how it sometimes seems that morons can actually see the simple truth of something.
The statement "The rider is responsible for all that happens to them. Usually" is simplistic in the extreme. It doesn't have to be complicated by a load of "but what ifs".

Would you hit the picks hard, in the wet, on a painted roadmarking?
No, I hear you say.
Well, why not, I'd ask.
Because the grip is not as good as on clear chip, or in the dry, and I'm likely to lock up the front and drop the bike.
Well, says I, isn't that you being responsible?
It is up to you, the rider, to choose what is best to suit the conditions you face. That includes what sort of bike you are on, your skill level and experience, the kind of road, other traffic, weather etc.

Why am is the rider tempted to hit the picks hard on wet paint and is there stopped traffic just around the bend? Is it because they have just had to accelerate to clear the drongo coming out of the entrance way without giving way that the paint was there to delineate? In that case wouldn't it be better to fix the drongo and the paint? fixing the paint will also fix all those minor nose to tails the cages have been having. Fix the right slice of cheese and you fix more than one issue for multiple road users.

Katman

12th May 2011, 15:11

Fix the right slice of cheese and you fix more than one issue for multiple road users.

Sounds like you're just looking for an excuse to remain mediocre.

oneofsix

12th May 2011, 15:18

Sounds to me like you're just looking for an excuse to remain mediocre.

Oooh you presumptuous little tart. I is awesome and cause I is so awesome the only things that now need fixing are the other factors.

MSTRS

12th May 2011, 15:20

Why am is the rider tempted to hit the picks hard on wet paint and is there stopped traffic just around the bend? Is it because they have just had to accelerate to clear the drongo coming out of the entrance way without giving way that the paint was there to delineate? In that case wouldn't it be better to fix the drongo and the paint? fixing the paint will also fix all those minor nose to tails the cages have been having. Fix the right slice of cheese and you fix more than one issue for multiple road users.

The reason you might have a need to hit the picks doesn't matter. It was just to illustrate a point. I could have picked ... assuming you'd seen it, you are approaching loose chip on a corner - do you continue to ride at warp factor 9, getting your knee down?

oneofsix

12th May 2011, 15:26

The reason you might have a need to hit the picks doesn't matter. It was just to illustrate a point. I could have picked ... assuming you'd seen it, you are approaching loose chip on a corner - do you continue to ride at warp factor 9, getting your knee down?

yes it does matter to my point and it is often the bit that blame the rider tries to ignore. Just like your 'assume you'd seen it', why wouldn't I have? because they forgot to mark it? If I had seen it I would be doing my best to be under control before I hit it but if I hadn't seen it the why not becomes important.

MSTRS

12th May 2011, 15:33

yes it does matter to my point and it is often the bit that blame the rider tries to ignore. Just like your 'assume you'd seen it', why wouldn't I have? because they forgot to mark it? If I had seen it I would be doing my best to be under control before I hit it but if I hadn't seen it the why not becomes important.

You did see the "usually", didn't you? I am well aware that sometimes shit happens - stuff that is beyond any rider's control.
There are a myriad of reasons why a rider might not see loose gravel, but most of them are within their control.
Again, not the point. Stop making excuses. The exercise is simple.

R-Soul

12th May 2011, 16:58

I hazard a guess that if there were a motorcycle school that had to put every person that wanted to ride a bike through a 6 year training program and a multitude of tests or exams, then they practiced 8-10 hours a day 5 days a week, and had to do regular updates and exams, then there would be a significant reduction in crashes.
For most of us, riding a bike isnt a profession.

And therein lies the problem. While it is not a profession, and we are not required by law (at least not yet) to have huge amounts of training, the results of us making an even moderate fuck up, can be very similar.

Too many of us do not recognise that we actually DO NEED that training, despite the lack of legislation making it mandatory, and that we DO need to provide the same amount of care and frankly common sense that we expect of people flying planes and performing operations.

Instead, we regard it like driving a car, with a "take it or leave it" approach to safety, gear, and even common sense. Playing Russian Roulette on the next corner. Plain FUCKING STUPID.

And we attack others pointing out this fact...

R-Soul

12th May 2011, 17:12

When I see a biker down thread, I believe that those who are lending a sympathetic ear (often vocal about cars, roads, police etc) are not mitigating the likely errors of the rider, but rather are in their own way recognizing that the rider was a victim of a systemic or chain of events that led to the accident.

And Katman is saying that playing the 'victim' is a cop out - so what if 6 years of training was not legislated for bikers? Does that stop them from training themselves for 6 years? So what if the road spee dlimit says 100km/hr - does that mean that you should still take a muddy corner in the wet at that speed?

If bikers recognise faults in the system, but dont do more than they absolutely have to to train themselves, or be more careful than the rule book says, despite overwhelming evidence that they should, and against all common sense, are they really victims?

R-Soul

12th May 2011, 17:20

It's a good tool eh? Useful in helping describes the real world factors contributing to any event.

Thing is, it takes a cultural shift by everyone to make that tool work...

...That’s not going to ever happen WRT general transport drivers riders....

What to do?

Who said anything about general transport riders? Casual riders are subject to the same risks everytime they go riding, for the time they go riding. They just dont do as much time.

It seems pretty obvious what to do from this side. Get everyone to make a cultural shift. How - by discussing accidents online and getting them to stop relying on the legislators to provide their common sense for them (fuck - thinking about it like that, no wonder we are having so many accidents, relying on legistlators for anything at all...especially common sense!).

This is exactly what Katman is getting at.

terbang

12th May 2011, 17:23

Would you hit the picks hard, in the wet, on a painted roadmarking?
No, I hear you say.
Well, why not, I'd ask.
Because the grip is not as good as on clear chip, or in the dry, and I'm likely to lock up the front and drop the bike.
Well, says I, isn't that you being responsible?
It is up to you, the rider, to choose what is best to suit the conditions you face. That includes what sort of bike you are on, your skill level and experience, the kind of road, other traffic, weather etc.

Interesting point, so if in this case the rider fell off. Was it because he hit the picks, the paint was of a cheap and slippery variety, the rider wasn't educated on such a hazard (very soon will be), he was riding on bald tyres, the planners and makers of the road screwed up or the old adage, he was speeding. I'd hazard a guess that it would be a combination of some of these factors plus more that would result in this hypothetical accident.

Remember the rider is human, he is limited by many human factors and really isn't designed to be in this man-made environment. He is certainly (by design) fallible with his skill and decision making process. In other words he needs to be educated by those who are also trained to educate (yeah chicken and egg stuff I know). And yet the rider is the last window (or slice of cheese) to avert an accident, often bearing the consequence and scorn of such an accident. Remember, misalign any of the slices of cheese and the accident will be averted.

In an ideal Safety Management System, the rider would also be trained to identify all the latent failures, or recognise that all the other holes in the cheese were becoming aligned. And have a reporting system (BRONZ or similar or even the cops) that will allow such feedback to occur.

The road makers, planners, law enforcers and anyone who has anything to do with riding a motorcycle on a road would also be able to recognize an error chain and act accordingly. In other words a total approach to improving rider safety, heavily weighted toward education, rather than just beating up the riders post an accident (not how a good educator behaves too) for their slip ups.

Katman and Mstrs, we all know what you are trying to achieve and I'm sure that everyone here applauds your good intentions, but you are only touching on one aspect of managing rider safety. However if that is your intention and only want to focus on changing rider attitudes, then you need to change the type of person who is on the road by educating them using sound instructional technique. And beating people up about their mistakes really isn't a sound education practise and teaches us all nothing. Being a good teacher is not an inherent skill, it is learnt.

R-Soul

12th May 2011, 17:28

Don't we all strive to be better at what we do?
Are you satisfied with mediocrity in your work, or as a parent, lover etc?
If I'm going to be bothered doing something, I'm going to give it my best - try and improve, lern and better myself (as per previous post) that's just human nature isn't it? Would you rather remove that attitude from human nature?

I think its quite the contrary - the best rider is the one that doesn't crash. And if they do, they ensure that they crash in a controlled environment.

Well awesomeness very often outlast death Katman and the good thing about death in such circumstances is that you rarely fall from grace thereafter so the legend lives on.

Yeah - I'd rather be alive and riding responsibly, aware of all my responsibilties as a rider, than an awesome tear in my kids eyes.

My main responsibility is to think for myself- realistically and responsibly, recognising the shortfalls in the legislation, the consequences of my actions, and the fact that even by following the rules, it may not be enough.

yungatart

12th May 2011, 17:37

Oooh you presumptuous little tart...
Please don't confuse me with Katman...I am better looking for a start...

A few years ago I had an accident.
I was not very experienced, and that certainly contributed.
The corner didn't have a speed advisory sign on it...that was a factor too.
My tyres weren't the best, warrantable, but not great...
The chip had worn off the road, leaving great shiny patches, that didn't help either.

When analysing what I did wrong, I was told (by many)...don't worry about...just a newbie mistake...you didn't read the road right....blah blah blah.

Nobody could tell me how to read the road right, apparently it is just something you 'do'!!

I could have just accepted the words of those far more experienced than I and carried on blissfully ignorant.

The point is though, that I took responsiblity for my accident, we reported the road to the relevant council and they installed signage, I changed the tyres on my bike and I searched out someone who could teach me how to "read the road right".

Lesson learned...but only because I took responsibility.
I could have blamed any or all of those things because they were all factors in my accident. I chose to change what I could, the most important being me, my knowledge and skill base...and that is all Katman (and others) is saying.

Edbear

12th May 2011, 18:06

Please don't confuse me with Katman...I am better looking for a start...

A few years ago I had an accident.
I was not very experienced, and that certainly contributed.
The corner didn't have a speed advisory sign on it...that was a factor too.
My tyres weren't the best, warrantable, but not great...
The chip had worn off the road, leaving great shiny patches, that didn't help either.

When analysing what I did wrong, I was told (by many)...don't worry about...just a newbie mistake...you didn't read the road right....blah blah blah.

Nobody could tell me how to read the road right, apparently it is just something you 'do'!!

I could have just accepted the words of those far more experienced than I and carried on blissfully ignorant.

The point is though, that I took responsiblity for my accident, we reported the road to the relevant council and they installed signage, I changed the tyres on my bike and I searched out someone who could teach me how to "read the road right".

Lesson learned...but only because I took responsibility.
I could have blamed any or all of those things because they were all factors in my accident. I chose to change what I could, the most important being me, my knowledge and skill base...and that is all Katman (and others) is saying.

I think the fact that you're a woman would also be a factor in that... Of course I haven't seen either of you in person or in picture so can't judge, but if your anything like your sense of humour you must be beautiful, for sure... :shutup: Katman doesn't seem to have a sense of humour, at least that he's shown yet... :innocent:

Katman

12th May 2011, 18:09

Katman and Mstrs, we all know what you are trying to achieve and I'm sure that everyone here applauds your good intentions, but you are only touching on one aspect of managing rider safety.

I don't know how to put this any clearer....

We are touching on the aspect that we have most control over.

Usarka

12th May 2011, 18:12

Interesting point, so if in this case the rider fell off. Was it because he hit the picks, the paint was of a cheap and slippery variety, the rider wasn't educated on such a hazard (very soon will be), he was riding on bald tyres, the planners and makers of the road screwed up or the old adage, he was speeding. I'd hazard a guess that it would be a combination of some of these factors plus more that would result in this hypothetical accident.

Remember the rider is human, he is limited by many human factors and really isn't designed to be in this man-made environment. He is certainly (by design) fallible with his skill and decision making process. In other words he needs to be educated by those who are also trained to educate (yeah chicken and egg stuff I know). And yet the rider is the last window (or slice of cheese) to avert an accident, often bearing the consequence and scorn of such an accident. Remember, misalign any of the slices of cheese and the accident will be averted.

In an ideal Safety Management System, the rider would also be trained to identify all the latent failures, or recognise that all the other holes in the cheese were becoming aligned. And have a reporting system (BRONZ or similar or even the cops) that will allow such feedback to occur.

The road makers, planners, law enforcers and anyone who has anything to do with riding a motorcycle on a road would also be able to recognize an error chain and act accordingly. In other words a total approach to improving rider safety, heavily weighted toward education, rather than just beating up the riders post an accident (not how a good educator behaves too) for their slip ups.

Katman and Mstrs, we all know what you are trying to achieve and I'm sure that everyone here applauds your good intentions, but you are only touching on one aspect of managing rider safety. However if that is your intention and only want to focus on changing rider attitudes, then you need to change the type of person who is on the road by educating them using sound instructional technique. And beating people up about their mistakes really isn't a sound education practise and teaches us all nothing. Being a good teacher is not an inherent skill, it is learnt.

Listen to this man, he knows what he's talking about. Aviation philosophy, well articulated.

MSTRS

12th May 2011, 18:16

I don't know how to put this any clearer....

We are touching on the aspect that we have most control over.

Fuck off!! It is the ONLY thing we have control over...

Katman

12th May 2011, 18:26

Fuck off!! It is the ONLY thing we have control over...

Good point.

I'll call it a deliberate mistake. :facepalm:

Oblivion

12th May 2011, 18:37

I'll call it a deliberate mistake. :facepalm:

Completely unintentional right?

Katman

12th May 2011, 18:39

Completely unintentional right?

I was distracted so it wasn't my fault. :whistle:

Edbear

12th May 2011, 19:12

Good point.

I'll call it a deliberate mistake. :facepalm:

I was distracted so it wasn't my fault. :whistle:

So what have you learned from it...? :innocent:

Oblivion

12th May 2011, 19:15

So what have you learned from it...? :innocent:

Pffffft...... Learning is so overated. :innocent:

Ocean1

12th May 2011, 19:48

There is much more bleating coming from those who don't like being told they should change. They may not believe that they have any need to change, and put up as many arguments against that as there are stars in the sky.
While KM (and others, myself included) keep putting forward just the one argument for change..."The rider is responsible for all that happens to them. Usually."

Firstly, nobody is omnipotent, they can't be responsible for everythingthat happens to them.

Even in those variables they can control what has their being responsible for what happens to them got to do with them changing behaviour? There's no rational argument for change there.

Ocean1

12th May 2011, 19:56

Who said anything about general transport riders?

I did. I suggested that professionals in industries that use advanced analisys as a safety tool are trained to a far higher level than your average driver or rider. Clear?

It seems pretty obvious what to do from this side.

You're on a side? I shouldn't expect objectivity in your comments, then?

Katman

12th May 2011, 20:21

You're on a side? I shouldn't expect objectivity in your comments, then?

That's ripe, coming from you.

Spearfish

12th May 2011, 20:36

All this talk about self determination is unsettling.....

I believe the bun-less KFC burger is why I'm fat, will eat a sponsored dozen to prove it, so its going to be hard shifting responsibility for my own riding "career" longevity onto myself...It just not the kiwi way...

No fear of falling off today though.... the little shytter conked out 45 min push from home!!

Ocean1

12th May 2011, 20:41

That's ripe, coming from you.

Still got nothing eh?

Ender EnZed

12th May 2011, 20:59

All the bleating on the topic comes from people who want OTHER PEOPLE to change.

Which "bleating" are we talking about here? The bleating for motorcyclists to change or the bleating for everything the fuck else to change so we can ride the same as always but with less crashing?

If you allow that then where does it stop? There's people who want SOMETHING done about most aspects of other peoples' behaviour. Follow that to it's logical conclusion. There's already laws restricting a wider range of bejaviour than at any time in history.

I agree with the sentiment and I don't think ANYONE here wants more laws. Which is precisely why I for one like to see less avoidable crashes, to avoid having more laws forced on us "for our own good". Not out of the goodness of my heart.

The rape and murder thing isn't worthy of a reply.

It was to illustrate my point that we aren't free to behave how it suits us.

Ender EnZed

12th May 2011, 21:02

Even in those variables they can control what has their being responsible for what happens to them got to do with them changing behaviour? There's no rational argument for change there.

Premise 1: Crashing a motorcycle results in pain.
Premise 2: Pain is something I should avoid.

Conclusion: I should avoid crashing a motorcycle.

Ender EnZed

12th May 2011, 21:11

In an ideal Safety Management System, the rider would also be trained to identify all the latent failures, or recognise that all the other holes in the cheese were becoming aligned. And have a reporting system (BRONZ or similar or even the cops) that will allow such feedback to occur.

The road makers, planners, law enforcers and anyone who has anything to do with riding a motorcycle on a road would also be able to recognize an error chain and act accordingly. In other words a total approach to improving rider safety, heavily weighted toward education, rather than just beating up the riders post an accident (not how a good educator behaves too) for their slip ups.

Much of this is never going to happen. There is simply not the same economic and societal benefit to be gained from reducing motorcycle crashes that there is/was with regard to aviation. It would be far easier to just ban them.

Ocean1

12th May 2011, 21:23

Which "bleating" are we talking about here? The bleating for motorcyclists to change or the bleating for everything the fuck else to change so we can ride the same as always but with less crashing?

The bleating from those who want other people to change.

Those who would rather the roads didn't have fucking great posts on the outside of corners with signs attached indicating there's a corner here have a valid point.

I agree with the sentiment and I don't think ANYONE here wants more laws. Which is precisely why I for one like to see less avoidable crashes, to avoid having more laws forced on us "for our own good". Not out of the goodness of my heart.

So you want other people to change so the government doesn't have to make them? What makes you think the government has any more right to dictate that than you do? Or, in fact that they'd have any more success than your bleating?

Lets see, an example might be in order... If you watch closely you'll notice people want to travel faster than they're currently allowed to. What makes you think making the speed limits more restrictive would change that behaviour?

It was to illustrate my point that we aren't free to behave how it suits us.

There is no ethical reason for anyone to attempt to dictate how anyone else should behave if they're not hurting anyone else. And no, minimising ACC's costs doesn't count as hurting someone else..

Ocean1

12th May 2011, 21:25

Premise 1: Crashing a motorcycle results in pain.
Premise 2: Pain is something I should avoid.

Conclusion: I should avoid crashing a motorcycle.

Yes. What's your point?

Ender EnZed

12th May 2011, 21:41

The bleating from those who want other people to change.

So that's everyone here?

So you want other people to change so the government doesn't have to make them and me?

Yes.

What makes you think the government has any more right to dictate that than you do? Or, in fact that they'd have any more success than your bleating?

They're reasonably successful at doing most of what they've decided to do. I wouldn't ride a bike around town with no number plate and expect nothing to come of it after being seen by a cop.

Lets see, an example might be in order... If you watch closely you'll notice people want to travel faster than they're currently allowed to. What makes you think making the speed limits more restrictive would change that behaviour?

I most certainly do not want more restrictive speed limits. In my earlier post I said it would suit me to ride at 100 MPH on SH1.

There is no ethical reason for anyone to attempt to dictate how anyone else should behave if they're not hurting anyone else.

I agree.

And no, minimising ACC's costs doesn't count as hurting someone else..

To be honest ACC costs don't bother me too much at the moment. But I don't want to see motorcycling become progressively more expensive as political momentum builds to get rid of what is seen as an unnecessary burden on the tax payer.

Ender EnZed

12th May 2011, 21:46

Firstly, nobody is omnipotent, they can't be responsible for everythingthat happens to them.

Even in those variables they can control what has their being responsible for what happens to them got to do with them changing behaviour? There's no rational argument for change there.

Premise 1: Crashing a motorcycle results in pain.
Premise 2: Pain is something I should avoid.

Conclusion: I should avoid crashing a motorcycle.

Yes. What's your point?

I was proposing that there is in fact a rational argument for change.

Ocean1

12th May 2011, 21:56

So that's everyone here?

On the contrary. I, for one am utterly ambivalent if you choose to hold self contradictory ideas about ethical behaviour.

And I’d remain so even if ‘Er Majesty’s gubmint decided to tax me more because you behaved as you do.

Ocean1

12th May 2011, 22:01

I was proposing that there is in fact a rational argument for change.

That's not it, trust me.

The fact that we are all individually responsible for our own behavior is no reason anyone should change that behavior. It sounds like you're assuming anyone whose behavior you don't approve of hasn't adequately evaluated to consequences of that behavior. That's an arrogant assumption.

Ender EnZed

12th May 2011, 22:12

The fact that we are all individually responsible for our own behavior is no reason anyone should change that behavior. It sounds like you're assuming anyone whose behavior you don't approve of hasn't adequately evaluated to consequences of that behavior. That's an arrogant assumption.

That doesn't make it false.

terbang

13th May 2011, 08:59

Much of this is never going to happen. There is simply not the same economic and societal benefit to be gained from reducing motorcycle crashes that there is/was with regard to aviation. It would be far easier to just ban them.

To that I agree and as I said, if only we could have a 500 seat motorcycle to generate the revenue to fund a decent motorcycle SMS.

However we don't have, so training the riders is about all we can do right now. However what I see here is a couple of blokes, hiding behind their ME status standing on soap boxes, criticizing without basis and using some of the most appalling instructional technique I've seen. It seems to be achieving very little for the amount of energy (and good intention) being expelled. We could educate people in a better way.

In a previous post I stated that the skill of teaching isn't inherent and also needs to be trained as well. Some adapt to it better than others and should be selected accordingly, but they need to be trained.

In the past, airlines had problems in this area, for years guys were often promoted to trainers and examiners based on their seniority or their experience or "good blokedness" and often struggled in the role of instructor often doing more harm than good. The regulators caught up with this and forced the industry to train the trainers.

One of the biggest lessons learned in Aviation is that we learned from our mistakes in a non punitive reporting system. As of today Cockpit recorders can only be used for improving flight safety and not evidence in court to prosecute. So a culture of "spill yer guts" when you fuck up allows the industry to learn from their mistakes.

Humans do make mistakes and our job is to mitigate those errors buy learning from our mistakes. Honest reporting and good training is the answer.

OK so where does that fit here? I believe that most here already understand the basic principles that I have mentioned. I see quite a few "I crashed like this" threads on this site, this tells me that some amongst us want to share their experience and though some posts may be dressed up with a bit of self protection, most stand as a stark warning and example to other motorcyclists about the dangers of our environment.
However most of those threads also degenerate into a shit fight as the zealots (some call themselves mentors) jump on board for probably the right reasons, though using the wrong method, and ridicule and chastise the poor poster for simply sharing their experience.
The impetus of the original post is lost and the rest remain silent.

Katman you really could do some good on this site and do your title some justice, if you were to behave like an educator rather than a school prefect.

We all have a voice, we have MAG, BRONZ and many other ways of getting our message across. I personally would be happy to pay a greater levy to put my bikes on the road if I thought that it was going towards improving education throughout motorcycling. And that may also include educating a few of those outside the motorcycle community who can also contribute to our accident rate.

Katman

13th May 2011, 09:07

Bullshit Bruce. If people post about their accident and genuinely sound like they want to know what they did wrong I don't see anyone ridiculing them.

All too often though, they post about their accident in a manner that tries to blame everything other than themselves. Then when someone suggests that they should look at themselves rather than blaming everything else, that's when the shit fight starts.

People just don't like their own fallibilities being pointed out to them.

oneofsix

13th May 2011, 09:10

Bullshit Bruce. If people post about their accident and genuinely sound like they want to know what they did wrong I don't see anyone ridiculing them.

All too often though, they post about their accident in a manner that tries to blame everything other than themselves, then when someone suggests that they should look at themselves rather than blaming everything else, that's when the shit fight starts.

People just don't like their own fallibilities pointed out to them.

All this according to Katmans criteria as Judge, Jury and primarily executioner. :woohoo:

The Stranger

13th May 2011, 09:47

Does the medical profession tolerate honest mistakes? Once again - not lightly. Do they tolerate mistakes through stupidity? Most definitely not.

So why should motorcyclists get away with the attitude of "Meh, people die - get over it"?

Interesting you should mention that. Even with all of their training and expertise they still make fuckups.

We did AV and IT support for an international medical conference at the Aotea Centre several years ago. One of the American presenters put up stats showing that the 7th leading cause of death in the states was medical related fuck ups (well he didn't use that term exactly). He suggested NZ would be similar and asked the audience if any would disagree. None did (they were all doctors).

A quick google search of death due to medical error supports this position.

In the actual words of a doctor I visited "We can always bury our mistakes"

I thank you for your support of my argument.