General bitch (oops, I mean discussion) about bikers thread

[Katman]

In the actual words of a doctor I visited "We can always bury our mistakes"

I thank you for your support of my argument.

Actually Noel, the current example of the woman who died after being given 10 times the normal dose of beta blockers would suggest that medical misadventure is not treated lightly.

Surely you're not suggesting that a culture of covering up mistakes within the medical profession should be acceptable.

[terbang]

People just don't like their own fallibilities being pointed out to them.

I have found that in a proper training environment people welcome their fallibilities being pointed out to them by their mentors. Its part of the way we learn.

[Katman]

I have found that in a proper training environment people welcome their fallibilities being pointed out to them by their mentors.

Doesn't sound like the Kiwibiker I know.

[The Stranger]

Of course, there are no track fees to pay on the road and we all enjoy our bikes and riding and we are sorely tempted to wick it up from time to time.

I will confess that over 40 years of biking has seen me exceeding 160km/h many times and for long distances, generally many years ago when traffic was a lot lighter and slower than today. I've had a couple of close calls, ironically never while going that fast and have managed to never crash.

Why? I chose very deliberately where and when to do these speeds and was always aware of my surroundings and exercised caution. Those were also the days when tractors could only do less than half the speeds they can today and when droving animals on the roads was a common method of getting them from one place to the other. Sheep, cattle and horses were frequently on the main and secondary roads and overtaking lanes were rare.

Recent years have seen me reach my fastest speed ever on the road and was in suitable conditions with the only traffic being the three bikes accompanying me. My bikes have always been registered and warranted and up to standard, I've always worn the right gear, and the only accident I've ever had was exactly 12 months ago today at 8:45am in a van at less than 50km/h when I slid on oil.

My point? THINK before you wind that throttle on!

So the message is it's ok to speed where one believes that it's safe to speed.

Isn't that what people do now? I mean, who really speeds if they think it's unsafe to speed or if they are sure they will get caught (another form of unsafe)?

[The Stranger]

Actually Noel, the current example of the woman who died after being given 10 times the normal dose of beta blockers would suggest that medical misadventure is not treated lightly.

Surely you're not suggesting that a culture of covering up mistakes within the medical profession should be acceptable.

Oh yeah, first time that a hospital has ever killed (or mistreated) anyone right? With all due respect - fuck off, it happens a damn site more frequently than many would care to know.
I must admit I was very surprised at seeing that one even make the papers, must have been a slow news day.

I'm not suggesting that it is acceptable at all.
I do understand the reasons why they happen (human error chief among them) and why it is somewhat necessary to play down - though it's not really covered up as a cursory search will show.

[Katman]

and why it is somewhat necessary to play down

'Play down' - is that the PC version of 'Cover up'?

[The Stranger]

'Play down' - is that the PC version of 'Cover up'?

It can be spun many ways, the result is the same.
Try suing a doctor and it will become clear. You will need expert witness. Where will you get expert witness?
It's not fooken easy, they all close ranks. Why?

The reason given was "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

That is, they pretty much all accept that they are all human and all make mistakes.
But then, there's no katman in the medical profession is there?

[The Stranger]

Doesn't sound like the Kiwibiker I know.

Doesn't sound like katman either does it.

[Ocean1]

One of the American presenters put up stats showing that the 7th leading cause of death in the states was medical related fuck ups (well he didn't use that term exactly). He suggested NZ would be similar and asked the audience if any would disagree. None did (they were all doctors).


A child is taken to a NZ ED with minor head injuries.

The child's mother wants to know why an MRI isn't being considered.

The American ED specialist tells her that in an American ED it would be automatic.

Why not here? demands the mother.

Because the risk of cancer later in life is a higher risk than not having an MRI, they do it to protect the hospital against any subsequent law suite.

An MRI costs about $800. That, and the higher cancer rate are the direct costs associated with a culture of blame.

Wankers who wave their finger at others will be what ends up costing us in the long run, not those who simply have a different idea of what risk is acceptable and what isn't.

[Ocean1]

I'm not suggesting that it is acceptable at all.


Allow me.

If you don't want to expose yourself to the possibility of being treated in a less than ideal way by the medical profession then feel free to avoid using their services.

[Katman]

Wankers who wave their finger at others will be what ends up costing us in the long run, not those who simply have a different idea of what risk is acceptable and what isn't.

No, wankers who believe they have the right to ride in whatever manner they like, regardless of the impact their actions have on others, will be what ends up costing us in the long run.

[terbang]

Doesn't sound like the Kiwibiker I know.

Hmm, a loud and very clear point there. The kiwibikers you know...

[Katman]

Hmm, a loud and very clear point there. The kiwibikers you know...

I would have thought, for a pilot, your comprehension would be better than that.

[avgas]

I have found that in a proper training environment people welcome their fallibilities being pointed out to them by their mentors. Its part of the way we learn.
Yes for some. No for me.

I treat riding like wanking. Last think I want is a professional wanker telling me I am doing it wrong. I much prefer learning new things on my own, in my own terms.

As abhorred as that sounds, it works. And not only can I get myself off in no time flat - my motorbike skills are what I would consider sufficient for my needs.

But feel free to attend motorcycle soggy biscuit days, doesn't bother me in the slightest. I understand that is how you prefer to learn. Just don't assume "we" is both you and I.

[avgas]

Bullshit Bruce. If people post about their accident and genuinely sound like they want to know what they did wrong I don't see anyone ridiculing them.
Except me, I will mock the crap out of them.

If you haven't learn't what you did did wrong in a crash and have to have others tell you.........chances are you will do it again.

Even a monkey knows that touching the electric fence is a bad idea after the first time.

[Edbear]

So the message is it's ok to speed where one believes that it's safe to speed.

Isn't that what people do now? I mean, who really speeds if they think it's unsafe to speed or if they are sure they will get caught (another form of unsafe)?

Not quite. Many speed even knowing the risk in risky situations because they think they can get away with it by their own skill or that they reckon the risk is worth the thrill.

In my case, I pointed out this was a long time ago in the main and apart from the max speed run, where I actually backed off before maxing out, I haven't sped for a long time now due to the higher risk these days and the fact that I am older and wiser than I was.

I'm encouraging people to stop and think more about where and when they are. My high speed action was in deserted or near-deserted traffic conditions well away from main centers and traffic. Usually I was the only one around and even as I pointed out with the highest speed I'd ever recorded, it was done with only the other three bikes I was with anywhere to be seen. No other traffic and on a clear relatively straight stretch of road in ideal weather conditions with my bike well up to scratch. How many restrict their speeding to those coditions?

[R-Soul]

The road makers, planners, law enforcers and anyone who has anything to do with riding a motorcycle on a road would also be able to recognize an error chain and act accordingly..... Yeah right... Tui anyone?



Katman....you are only touching on one aspect of managing rider safety. We all know this - but its the only one that we can control for ourselves. And if we delay what we can do, while waiting for the government to start start looking at the big picture, or even start caring, we could be waiting a while!

[R-Soul]

I did. I suggested that professionals in industries that use advanced analisys as a safety tool are trained to a far higher level than your average driver or rider. Clear?

And I am saying that we as indivduals should take responsibiliy for ourselves to use the same tools to save our own skin. Not wait for an appointed bike safety minister.



You're on a side? I shouldn't expect objectivity in your comments, then?

Getting defensive? I was referring to my side of the computer screen. But you could also look at it from the side of logic, rationality and objectivity itself....

[R-Soul]

Lets see, an example might be in order... If you watch closely you'll notice people want to travel faster than they're currently allowed to. What makes you think making the speed limits more restrictive would change that behaviour?




There is no ethical reason for anyone to attempt to dictate how anyone else should behave if they're not hurting anyone else. And no, minimising ACC's costs doesn't count as hurting someone else..

Why have you got it in your head that there is "dictation" involved? this enture thread is about changing "culture" from one of:
- reckless disregard for ones own safety,
- allocating blame on the powers that be and everyone else involved despite having disregarded all cues and signs that you could have used to avoid your misfirtune
- general laziness and disregard for upskilling yourself to be able to recognise said cues and signs, and react appropriately

TO:
- recognition of the VERY real dangers involved in riding recklessly
- taking responsibility for your own safety while riding, and
- taking responsibility for your own training, and not waiting for others to do it for you

Here is an example for you: NZ has a great culture around drinking and driving. I was amazed when I arrived here.

Compare it to SA, where its a "nudge, nudge, wink, wink, I wont say anything f you don't" culture, and if you manage to get home in one piece then all is well. but if you dont then its all the governments fault for not having late night busses or more breathlyser road blocks set up.

I thought it was damn cool to see friends here not letting their friends drive, and taking the time and making the effiort to allocate designated drivers. As opposed to the SA culture of "full speed ahead and fuck the icebergs", and "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it (or when we go flying through it blind drunk)".

That is the culture change that is needed in NZ biking (and frankly SA biking too). No dictation required.

[Usarka]

One of the American presenters put up stats showing that the 7th leading cause of death in the states was medical related fuck ups (well he didn't use that term exactly). He suggested NZ would be similar and asked the audience if any would disagree.

I'd be surprised if it isn't much higher.


New Zealand data indicate 13 percent of hospital admissions are associated with an adverse event and 15 percent of these adverse events are associated with permanent disability or death.

All practicing doctors are aware of error in their day to day work.

http://www.mcnz.org.nz/portals/0/publications/coles/cole%20chapter%2022.pdf

[Katman]

I'd be surprised if it isn't much higher.


And do you see the medical profession sitting back and saying "People die - get over it"?

[Usarka]

And do you see the medical profession sitting back and saying "People die - get over it".

Yes.

But they put measures in place to minimise undue risk, review when things go seriously wrong and punish when people are negligent.

The medical profession is full of risks and decisions that can kill. They realise that the people making these decisions are human. Some more than others.

And yes, I've worked in public health so I have a fair idea of what the attitude is behing closed doors.

[Katman]

But they put measures in place to minimise undue risk, review when things go seriously wrong and punish when people are negligent.


Hey, there's a good idea.

[Usarka]

Hey, there's a good idea.

Yep that's why I wear good gear, pick my spots and generally ride sensibly. When I make a decision and if I want to take a risk I weigh up the cost/benefit just like doctors. If I'm negligent I get busted by the cops. I'd suggest the majority of us normally operate like this anyway.

Putting this into your doctors analogy you'd rather doctors declined doing operations that have a chance of going wrong. And all operations can go wrong and kill you.

[Ocean1]

And I am saying that we as indivduals should take responsibiliy for ourselves to use the same tools to save our own skin. Not wait for an appointed bike safety minister.

Fair enough too, you're individually absolutely free to do whatever you think works. For you. As do the rest of us.

Getting defensive? I was referring to my side of the computer screen. But you could also look at it from the side of logic, rationality and objectivity itself....

Not at all. And for the record logic, rationality and objectivity don't have a side.

[Katman]

Putting this into your doctors analogy you'd rather doctors declined doing operations that have a chance of going wrong. And all operations can go wrong and kill you.

If you want to play analogies, a motorcyclist treating the Coro Loop as a racetrack is like a doctor performing heart surgery while he's pissed.

[Ocean1]

Why have you got it in your head that there is "dictation" involved?

That's what I'm acustomed to call it when one group of people compel another to behave the way they want them to. I' pretty sure you'll find the dictionary does also.



this enture thread is about changing "culture" from one of:
- reckless disregard for ones own safety, So who's safety is it?
- allocating blame on the powers that be and everyone else involved despite having disregarded all cues and signs that you could have used to avoid your misfirtune again, They shouldn't be held accountable for the use of my money?
- general laziness and disregard for upskilling yourself to be able to recognise said cues and signs, and react appropriately Again, why is that anyone else's business?

TO:
- recognition of the VERY real dangers involved in riding recklessly I don't know anyone who would describe their riding as reckless. Just other people who have different ideas about what that means.
- taking responsibility for your own safety while riding, and I keep hearing that. Quite frankly I don't give a rats arse if other people feel responsible for any particular incident. The incident doesn't much care either.
- taking responsibility for your own training, and not waiting for others to do it for you

Explain why that's any of your business.

[avgas]

If you want to play analogies, a motorcyclist treating the Coro Loop as a racetrack is like a doctor performing heart surgery while he's pissed.
Not really.
I don't get paid to treat coro loop like a race track. Its not even my chosen profession.

Now if I got paid to not treat the coro loop like a race track I would probably slow down. Just like I get paid right now to go to work.
I don't want to go to work - I just do.

[Katman]

He's a particularly benevolent doctor - he works for free.

He likes to drink though. He says it steadies his hand.

[ynot slow]

Can't be stuffed reading the whole thread,but my thoughts re bikers are own worst enemy,whose fault was/is the crash etc.IF you crash and don't learn from said crash,YOU are a bloody idiot.
And yep the road conditions might be dodgy,i.e oil and rain,but unless the riding is at night you surely can see the slick to avoid,hence maybe rider error,no way getting at anyone who has crashed.
I came through Manawatu Gorge tonight in dark,the road was wet,heaps of traffic making it difficult to see,but my intuition was to slow down,sure enough a few pieces of rock had fallen,managed to dodge and stay in my lane,but if I'd crashed was it my fault?For sure-as I wasn't able to avoid,maybe due to speed(nope,had slown down due to night etc),visibility(maybe,was showery,visor and oncoming lights),or inattention-bingo,not paying due dilligence to the road,was it an accident if I had crashed,not really,accidents are unavoidable,this scenario and many others are avoidable.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

That's what I'm acustomed to call it when one group of people compel another to behave the way they want them to. I' pretty sure you'll find the dictionary does also.


Originally Posted by R-Soul
this enture thread is about changing "culture" from one of:
- reckless disregard for ones own safety, So who's safety is it?
- allocating blame on the powers that be and everyone else involved despite having disregarded all cues and signs that you could have used to avoid your misfirtune again, They shouldn't be held accountable for the use of my money?
- general laziness and disregard for upskilling yourself to be able to recognise said cues and signs, and react appropriately Again, why is that anyone else's business?

TO:
- recognition of the VERY real dangers involved in riding recklessly I don't know anyone who would describe their riding as reckless. Just other people who have different ideas about what that means.
- taking responsibility for your own safety while riding, and I keep hearing that. Quite frankly I don't give a rats arse if other people feel responsible for any particular incident. The incident doesn't much care either.

Explain why that's any of your business.

This post sums it up for me - especially the last sentence - why do some feel the need to comment on other members' riding - especially when not asked?

I believe that the amount of extreme cases, where people do not wish to learn from their OWN mistakes, are very rare.

Everyone who is rational acknowledges that they could do "anything" better, but to have that point rammed down your throat by a bunch of keyboard warriors will just get anyones back up.

The sanctimonious (key word here) members who argue that they should be freely allowed to criticise other riders are the ones who need to look at themselves.

My point is not to refute that people do make mistakes when riding (and rightly so should attempt to learn from experience).
My point is that the sanctimonious twats on this site will "assume" and "presume" to their hearts content, based upon bugger all "facts".
Their approach means that they have the moral low ground, but they never seem to fully appreciate this (kicking while someone is down would be abhorrent to most normal people).

They (the sanctimonious ones) will undoubtedly go off at a tangent or pick fault with a segment of this post rather than understanding the point though.

[flyingcrocodile46]

This post sums it up for me - especially the last sentence - why do some feel the need to comment on other members' riding - especially when not asked?

I believe that the amount of extreme cases, where people do not wish to learn from their OWN mistakes, are very rare.

Everyone who is rational acknowledges that they could do "anything" better, but to have that point rammed down your throat by a bunch of keyboard warriors will just get anyones back up.

The sanctimonious (key word here) members who argue that they should be freely allowed to criticise other riders are the ones who need to look at themselves.

My point is not to refute that people do make mistakes when riding (and rightly so should attempt to learn from experience).
My point is that the sanctimonious twats on this site will "assume" and "presume" to their hearts content, based upon bugger all "facts".
Their approach means that they have the moral low ground, but they never seem to fully appreciate this (kicking while someone is down would be abhorrent to most normal people).

They (the sanctimonious ones) will undoubtedly go off at a tangent or pick fault with a segment of this post rather than understanding the point though.

:first::clap::clap::clap:

[terbang]

I believe that the amount of extreme cases, where people do not wish to learn from their OWN mistakes, are very rare.

Everyone who is rational acknowledges that they could do "anything" better, but to have that point rammed down your throat by a bunch of keyboard warriors will just get anyones back up.

The sanctimonious (key word here) members who argue that they should be freely allowed to criticise other riders are the ones who need to look at themselves.

My point is not to refute that people do make mistakes when riding (and rightly so should attempt to learn from experience).
My point is that the sanctimonious twats on this site will "assume" and "presume" to their hearts content, based upon bugger all "facts".
Their approach means that they have the moral low ground, but they never seem to fully appreciate this (kicking while someone is down would be abhorrent to most normal people).

They (the sanctimonious ones) will undoubtedly go off at a tangent or pick fault with a segment of this post rather than understanding the point though.

Perfect, in 1980 Ron Chipppendale came up with the crude conclusion of "pilot error" when investigating the Mt Erebus accident. Even in the light of more evidence using systemic analysis including findings of criminal behavior ("Orchestrated litany of lies"), he maintained his sanctimonious stance and heaped all the blame on the Captain (Jim Collins). The past thirty odd years has proven that whilst the captain did play a part and made some mistakes through his own lack of care, the accident still could have been averted if some of the latent failures had been fixed.
In those days pilots were not so schooled in the matters of CRM and human factors, so Collins would not have recognized a lot of the latent failures that were lurking.
Chippendale obnoxiously maintained his sanctimonious stance right on up to his retirement into obscurity. He made no real contribution to preventing such an accident from happening again, other than to show the world how not to investigate an accident. Thus provoking change.

Often the sanctimonious amongst us have good intentions, and in person they may be good blokes, but their "writers voice" may be letting them down. As often when writing people don't realize how they sound when they write.

Its not all about touchey feely, but rather doing it right with an open mind. When we ride, there is the physical act of controlling the motorcycle and there is also the management of the ride and both of these skills need to be taught, encouraged and kept current. When managing our ride we need to manage the environment we are in and also the other road users and know when to say when. But it should go further than just that.

In an earlier post yungatart recounted an off she had, she looked at all facets and it resulted in her complaining about the road surface. It was fixed and so therefore a latent failure was eliminated.
Think about how many other accidents that didn't occur as a result of her actions.

[Katman]

This post sums it up for me - especially the last sentence - why do some feel the need to comment on other members' riding - especially when not asked?


When your accident goes towards strengthening the government's resolve to make life more difficult for the rest of us then it certainly does become our business.

[Maha]

Perfect, in 1980 Ron Chipppendale came up with the crude conclusion of "pilot error" when investigating the Mt Erebus accident.

...and went on to create and produce an all male dance troupe..:blink:

[Ocean1]

When your accident goes towards strengthening the government's resolve to make life more difficult for the rest of us then it certainly does become our business.

Yes, you've already explained that self interest is the reason behind your obnoxious behaviour. You've got a problem with the government, not those who have accidents.

In fact I wonder how many people you're effectively blaming for your problem. Hands up all yous bikers who've had an accident...

Not you, junior, you've only been around the block twice.

Of the rest? Maybe 80%


Oh you dirty 1%ers you. Shame.

[Ocean1]

Hmm, a loud and very clear point there. The kiwibikers you know...


I would have thought, for a pilot, your comprehension would be better than that.

Indeed. The word was "kiwibiker", (the site). Not "kiwibikers", (it's inhabitants).

Katman doesn't know the site as anything other than a place to vent his spleen at everyone else.

[Ocean1]

I believe that the amount of extreme cases, where people do not wish to learn from their OWN mistakes, are very rare.

Non-existant, in fact. No living thing fails to learn from their every action, every day. There might be some few who seek to over-emphisize environmental issues, perhaps in an attempt to minimise damage to their "image". But pointing out to them, (often with zero facts) that they're wrong adds not a jot to the sum of inteligence potentially useful in preventing further simmilar accidents.

[Katman]

But pointing out to them, (often with zero facts) that they're wrong adds not a jot to the sum of inteligence potentially useful in preventing further simmilar accidents.

It does if enough people say it.

[Usarka]

We should all just stop arguing and pat him on the head for we will never win. For a) i'm sure most of it is just argument for arguments sake, and b) he's right in his own mind and will not accept anything except 100% his view of the world, ie. we're all wrong.

Save the breath and just butt in once in a while.

[flyingcrocodile46]

We should all just stop arguing and pat him on the head for we will never win. For a) i'm sure most of it is just argument for arguments sake, and b) he's right in his own mind and will not accept anything except 100% his view of the world, ie. we're all wrong.

Save the breath and just butt in once in a while.

That's what I do. Every now and again I walk past and piss on him so he doesn't forget he's at the bottom of the pissing pole

[Ocean1]

It does if enough people say it.

You haven't got a fucking clue what the causes are in any particular accident, yet you claim that if enough people yell loudly enough they'll prove where the blame lies?

I know three year olds that know better than that.


We should all just stop arguing and pat him on the head

Except that his behavior is both offensive and, (by his own measure) counter-productive. So, (again using his own logic) if enough people tell him he's an obnoxous pratt then he'll have to eventually see the light, innit.

[Usarka]

Sounds like we've got proof that his method doesn't work! :lol:

[Katman]

So, (again using his own logic) if enough people tell him he's an obnoxous pratt then he'll have to eventually see the light, innit.

Feel free to keep trying.

[schrodingers cat]

You haven't got a fucking clue what the causes are in any particular accident, yet you claim that if enough people yell loudly enough they'll prove where the blame lies?

I know three year olds that know better than that.



Except that his behavior is both offensive and, (by his own measure) counter-productive. So, (again using his own logic) if enough people tell him he's an obnoxous pratt then he'll have to eventually see the light, innit.

It was put to the vote you know...

[Usarka]

It was put to the vote you know...

The vote was for him to shut up, not whether he is an obnoxious pratt. I think he's a one-eyed, extremist attention seeker with CBD and possibly a personality disorder, but what right do I have to tell him to fuck off?

[Ender EnZed]

The vote was for him to shut up

It was.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/137571-Should-Katman-shut-the-fuck-up


not whether he is an obnoxious pratt. I think he's a one-eyed, extremist attention seeker with CBD and possibly a personality disorder, but what right do I have to tell him to fuck off?

I won't deny any of this.

[schrodingers cat]

The vote was for him to shut up, not whether he is an obnoxious pratt. I think he's a one-eyed, extremist attention seeker with CBD and possibly a personality disorder, but what right do I have to tell him to fuck off?

Semantics sweety. The tribe has spoken. Breath deep

[Usarka]

Semantics sweety. The tribe has spoken. Breath deep

You're scary, not in a good way! I agree with the poll what's your problem. I still think he's a twat.

[Berries]

I think he's a one-eyed, extremist attention seeker with CBD
His own CBD? Big guy then.

[Oblivion]

His own CBD? Big guy then.

99% of it is his ego.

[schrodingers cat]

You're scary, not in a good way! I agree with the poll what's your problem. I still think he's a twat.

I'm not defending the guy I just think that bitching about him is like moaning cause the sun rises in the East "Ooooooo the nasty sun is in my eyes blah blah"

Try accepting that constants exist in our world.

Or use the ignore function (twice if it makes you happier)

[Ocean1]

Feel free to keep trying.


The implication being that it won't work?


Oh, the irony...

[MSTRS]

The sanctimonious (key word here) members who argue that they should be freely allowed to criticise other riders are the ones who need to look at themselves.

I am not my brother's keeper?
But when what my brother does puts him and/or others at risk, or reflects negatively on me, I will speak up.




In an earlier post yungatart recounted an off she had, she looked at all facets and it resulted in her complaining about the road surface. It was fixed and so therefore a latent failure was eliminated.
Think about how many other accidents that didn't occur as a result of her actions.

*pedants hat on*
She owned her crash, accepted that there were a number of contributory factors, the biggest one/s being herself. She complained about the lack of warning signage, which was the only physical change made on that corner. One can only guess at how many possible crashes were averted by that simple expedient.




Katman doesn't know the site as anything other than a place to vent his spleen at everyone else.

Kiwibiker, the website, is many things to many people. What it is to every poster, is a forum that allows them an outlet for their own particular sub-interest/s.

[yungatart]

...But pointing out to them, (often with zero facts) that they're wrong adds not a jot to the sum of inteligence potentially useful in preventing further simmilar accidents.

It does, if it makes others think about their own accidents/incidents and attitudes to riding....which it does.

[Ocean1]

She owned her crash, accepted that there were a number of contributory factors, the biggest one/s being herself. She complained about the lack of warning signage, which was the only physical change made on that corner. One can only guess at how many possible crashes were averted by that simple expedient.

Les't see, here. The fact that she publicly suggested that she felt she didn't have the experience to have avoided an accident made a couple of people happy. It contributed absolutely nothing to any improvements in safety.

The fact that she identified and highlighted one of the environmental causes, on the other hand has resulted in improvements likely to help prevent further accidents.

So the benefit of her "ownership" of her misfortune is what, exactly? And as a matter of interest; how much bullying did it require for her to make that announcement?

[Spearfish]

557

and counting

[yungatart]

And as a matter of interest; how much bullying did it require for her to make that announcement?

WTF???? You are seriously deluded if you think I could be bullied into making a post on here , if I didn't want to. We have never met obviously...and you had better hope that we don't in future.
I am not a keyboard warrior, I will say in person far worse than I would ever post on here.

Pathetic! Offensive little worm!
You have seriously gone down in my estimation with that cheap shot (not that you rated very highly in the first instance).

[Spearfish]

WTF???? You are seriously deluded if you think I could be bullied into making a post on herte , if I didn't want to. We have never met obviously...and you had better hope that we don't in future.
I am not a keyboard warrior, I will say in person far worse than I would ever post on here.

Pathetic! Offensive little worm!
You have seriously gone down in my estimation with that cheap shot (not that you rated very highly in the first instance).

I read the bit about bullying differently, as in none, to make you talk about your event.
I'm not saying I read it right though...or am I?....no!...yeah?...shyt...

[Ocean1]

WTF???? You are seriously deluded if you think I could be bullied into making a post on herte , if I didn't want to.

Oh I knew that. My point was that your analysis of your experience was freely given, and therefore likely to be unaffected by the expectations and prejudices of others. And that bullying those who had experienced an accident into "admitting" that they were "to blame" for it is not only offensive but unlikely to produce anything of any value to anyone.

[MSTRS]

Les't see, here. The fact that she publicly suggested that she felt she didn't have the experience to have avoided an accident made a couple of people happy. It contributed absolutely nothing to any improvements in safety.


How the fuck can you claim any of that?
You have NO IDEA who has taken what message from her experience.



The fact that she identified and highlighted one of the environmental causes, on the other hand has resulted in improvements likely to help prevent further accidents.

In the interests of truth, it was I who complained, and I who thanked the district authorities for acting.

Dear Cagney
Thank you for speaking with me. Map & photos are attached. The corner I refer to would be the most dangerous one a motorcyclist could come across - namely a left hander, that tightens into a blind hairpin, whilst at the same time dropping from level ground into a fairly steep downhill. Exascerbating the issue is the fact that all the chip in the uphill lane has been pressed into the tar, leaving smooth shiny patches meaning there is greatly reduced grip for anyone unwary/unfortunate enough to cross the centre line.
It is my opinion that this corner urgently needs attention, especially a warning sign for those motorists travelling towards 8 MIle Junction. This sign should show a hairpin arrow and a suggested speed of 25kph.
I was with a small group of motorcyclists travelling to New Plymouth on 22 Dec 2006 when one of our number entered this corner at approx 40kph and could not get around it, subsequently dropping their bike which was moderately damaged and personally sustaining a broken leg and thumb. Whilst waiting for 'rescue' we witnessed at least 3 cars run wide for the same reason. It was only luck that no-one was in the opposing uphill lane each time. Our rescuer is a motorcyclist from New Plymouth and he informed us that this corner has a 'reputation' among the riders who use the road regularly.
I look forward to a positive outcome for my concerns.


Follow up:
I was the person who brought your attention to a dangerous corner on the above link road. I travelled this road last weekend and was extremely pleased to see that you have taken my concern seriously and installed warning and speed advisory signs. I thank you on behalf of all roadusers.
Regards




So the benefit of her "ownership" of her misfortune is what, exactly?

She is a better rider for having accepted her 'failing' - and for having done something about upskilling, in order to avoid a repetition.



And as a matter of interest; how much bullying did it require for her to make that announcement?

She has answered that. I will just add my disgust that you could even post such a slimy, distasteful piece of crap.

[flyingcrocodile46]

It does, if it makes others think about their own accidents/incidents and attitudes to riding....which it does.

Equally it has the exact opposite effect when the target audience takes affront at the arrogance of the speaker. The message is automatically discredited as valueless because of the distaste felt toward the messenger.

I believe that is really the point as to why many people get pissed off at Katman and his ignorant approach. Some of us see that the ignorance in his delivery of the message as more damaging to the biking community than good.

It's a matter of intelligence. Just because a Parrot can talk doesn't mean he is intelligent or that his message has value.



I read the bit about bullying differently, as in none, to make you talk about your event.
I'm not saying I read it right though...or am I?....no!...yeah?...shyt...

Yes I too read it differently, but you have to expect that a woman would read it differently to how a man wrote it. That is how the world spins. Males and females just don't seem to be able to interpret the same thing the same way. :blink:

They (like scatman) also unsuccessfully use the primitive tool of nagging people... and ignoring reality.:facepalm:

[flyingcrocodile46]

In the interests of truth

You aren't qualified to speak on the subject:yes:



it was I who complained

No surprise there



and I who thanked the district authorities for acting.

Feeling a mixture of mild surprise and disbelief at that one... mostly the later


She has answered that. I will just add my disgust that you could even post such a slimy, distasteful piece of crap.

Hardly surprising that you would interpret it incorrectly.

It seems pretty clear to me that he meant that it was very unlikely that her declaration was the result of the style of message delivery that scatman reverts to. In fact it would seem by the affront expressed that the point is well demonstrated.

[flyingcrocodile46]

How the fuck can you claim any of that?
You have NO IDEA who has taken what message from her experience.


Then equally 'you' can't have any idea as to how people might take scatman's messages. Yet that doesn't stop you from stating that you do.

Refer to point one of previous post:yes:

Having said that.. and seeing the silent response from the mouth, I guess KB management and I wont have to wait too long to see point two illustrated... again

[yungatart]

In the interests of truth, it was I who complained, and I who thanked the district authorities for acting.


At my request, after much discussion as to how we could make sure others didn't suffer the same fate as me.
Interestingly, a bus driver who rounded the corner soon after me claimed that many a rider had gone down in the same spot, why no one had reported it is beyond me.


Equally it has the exact opposite effect when the target audience takes affront at the arrogance of the speaker. The message is automatically discredited as valueless because of the distaste felt toward the messenger.

I believe that is really the point as to why many people get pissed off at Katman and his ignorant approach. Some of us see that the ignorance in his delivery of the message as more damaging to the biking community than good.




They (like scatman) also unsuccessfully use the primitive tool of nagging people.:facepalm:

In Katmans early days on here, I too, berated him for his approach, for his 'incessant' and 'repetitive' posts that make all who read them switch off.
The process of repetition coupled with Katman's unwavering attitude has indeed changed my mind, and made me think.
In fact, I probably would have been like so many others on here, blaming everything for my off, without looking for what I could have done differently, if not for him.



It seems pretty clear to me that he meant that it was very unlikely that her declaration was the result of the style of message delivery that scatman reverts to. In fact it would seem by the affront expressed that the point is well demonstrated.

You aren't qualified to speak on the subject of what he meant, unless of course, you are so far up his arse that you have become his mouthpiece.

[Edbear]

...In Katmans early days on here, I too, berated him for his approach, for his 'incessant' and 'repetitive' posts that make all who read them switch off.
The process of repetition coupled with Katman's unwavering attitude has indeed changed my mind, and made me think.
In fact, I probably would have been like so many others on here, blaming everything for my off, without looking for what I could have done differently, if not for him.
.

Katman and I got off on the wrong foot too. Recently we've been able to understand each other better. His message about personal responsibility was marred by his delivery which upset others. However I think he may be modifying his approach a bit and despite his original aggravating style the subject has had good debate on this thread with many good points made among the angst and flaming.

[flyingcrocodile46]

You aren't qualified to speak on the subject of what he meant, unless of course, you are so far up his arse that you have become his mouthpiece.

I doubt that is a position that anyone will find themselves in as he would have to extract himself first to make room:laugh:
BTW all credit to you for your approach to your accident. No different to how I or anyone else looks at our own contribution to negative outcomes. I started doing that many years ago in relation to non biking incidents (non accidents). It's just common sense and a matter of accepting that it is ok to recognise your own fallibility and the benifits in doing so.

PS scatman left a self portrait on my rep page ":tugger:" :laugh:

[Katman]

I doubt that is a position that anyone will find themselves in as he would have to extract himself first to make room

I don't think it was my arse that yungatart was referring to.

[MSTRS]

You aren't qualified to speak on the subject


Oh really? I didn't notice you being there at the time.



Feeling a mixture of mild surprise and disbelief at that one... mostly the later


Enjoy.


As for the rest of your utterings, I'm just hearing a parrot squawking.

[flyingcrocodile46]

I don't think it was my arse that yungatart was referring to.

That's ok. Neither do/did I

[MSTRS]

I don't think it was my arse that yungatart was referring to.

Comprehension. Apparently very difficult for lots of us, eh?

[Ocean1]

How the fuck can you claim any of that?
You have NO IDEA who has taken what message from her experience.


I'd say my claim that freely given, clear analysis is valuable is probably more believable than that uninformed blind insistence that someone take the blame for their accident is all it takes to prevent more.




In the interests of truth, it was I who complained, and I who thanked the district authorities for acting.

Thank you. Genuinely, I'm grateful that you did something practical to make the environment safer.



She is a better rider for having accepted her 'failing' - and for having done something about upskilling, in order to avoid a repetition.


I don't doubt it. I do doubt that manufacturing blame when you know nothing about the circumstances has any value whatsoever.


She has answered that. I will just add my disgust that you could even post such a slimy, distasteful piece of crap.

You, like she chose to misinterpret what was said. I'm sorry you both feel that I've behaved inappropriately but if you read my post with an open mind you'll see there was no ill will associated with it at all.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Comprehension. Apparently very difficult for lots of us, eh?

You excel in PKB's if nothing else :facepalm:

[Gone Burger]

At my request, after much discussion as to how we could make sure others didn't suffer the same fate as me.
Interestingly, a bus driver who rounded the corner soon after me claimed that many a rider had gone down in the same spot, why no one had reported it is beyond me.

Same in my crash. 8 Previous crashes through the same corner in only the past 2 years. I know what I did wrong. I only want signage to go up to assist in helping others to not repeat the mistakes I made which very nearly took my life. At the very least, put a no exit sign on the turn into the road. I have been informed by the police that signs will be in place in the next few months, and I was looking forward to hearing that.

[Ocean1]

PS scatman left a self portrait on my rep page ":tugger:" :laugh:

I'm surprised he's go any ammo left...


Comprehension. Apparently very difficult for lots of us, eh?

Glad you've accepted responsibility for your shortcommings.

Now, what are you going to do about improving your skill set?

[MSTRS]

I'd say my claim that freely given, clear analysis is valuable is probably more believable than that uninformed blind insistence that someone take the blame for their accident is all it takes to prevent more.


But 'uninformed blind insistence' is not what KM and myself are doing, is it? Any more than your 'freely given clear analysis is valuable'.
Barring the rare time/s we might have been present at any given crash, when we may or may not have even seen all that happened, we are left being in the position of 'just knowing' that something the rider did, or did not do, contributed to the crash. It isn't blaming them for it, just insisting that since they were there they most likely had a part to play.
We can place blame on the environment, or the weather, or another motorist, but let's face it...if the rider wasn't there too, they wouldn't have come to grief. That is not meant to be flippant - it is just the simple truth.

Your apology is accepted. Like YT, I certainly thought you were implying that I bullied her into making that post. She thought you may also have meant KM.
And I can speak for her on this, because she's standing right next to me!!

[yungatart]

I doubt that is a position that anyone will find themselves in as he would have to extract himself first to make room:laugh:
Wrong arse...
BTW all credit to you for your approach to your accident. No different to how I or anyone else looks at our own contribution to negative outcomes.
Thank you. You may, but there are lots who don't.



You, like she chose to misinterpret what was said. I'm sorry you both feel that I've behaved inappropriately but if you read my post with an open mind you'll see there was no ill will associated with it at all.

Thank you for your apology. I have read it with an open mind, still don't see it any differently TBH, but I will take you at your word.


Same in my crash. 8 Previous crashes through the same corner in only the past 2 years. I know what I did wrong. I only want signage to go up to assist in helping others to not repeat the mistakes I made which very nearly took my life. At the very least, put a no exit sign on the turn into the road. I have been informed by the police that signs will be in place in the next few months, and I was looking forward to hearing that.

Good on you girl. You can feel rightly proud that you are making a difference for others.:yes: Its a pity though, that someone hadn't done that earlier, eh?

[Ocean1]

But 'uninformed blind insistence' is not what KM and myself are doing, is it? Any more than your 'freely given clear analysis is valuable'.

Come on, dude, you know better than that, surely. There’s a world of difference in value between a clear, unambiguous report stating the facts surrounding an incident and the inevitable and pointless shitfight caused by some ill-conditioned busybody who freely admits he knows nothing about the incident declaring that: “Well there must have been SOMETHING you did to cause it”.


Barring the rare time/s we might have been present at any given crash, when we may or may not have even seen all that happened, we are left being in the position of 'just knowing' that something the rider did, or did not do, contributed to the crash. It isn't blaming them for it, just insisting that since they were there they most likely had a part to play.

“Just knowing”? I think your credibility is at an all time low with that one, dude. Of course there’s always something someone could have done, or refrained from doing that would have resulted in a different outcome. Statements to that effect simply serve to identify someone who has an unworkably simplistic grasp of cause and effect.


We can place blame on the environment, or the weather, or another motorist, but let's face it...if the rider wasn't there too, they wouldn't have come to grief. That is not meant to be flippant - it is just the simple truth.

However, by your own example plenty of other riders will eventually be there. And while an improvement in any individual rider’s abilities might contribute to their safety an improvement in an environmental factor will contribute to the safety of many, many more. I note also that you use the word blame quite freely when describing the behaviour of those who you consider reluctant to accept responsibility for their accident, but you’re not happy to use the label to describe your intrusion into their affairs.


Your apology is accepted. Like YT, I certainly thought you were implying that I bullied her into making that post. She thought you may also have meant KM.
And I can speak for her on this, because she's standing right next to me!!

I inferred neither. It had, in fact completely slipped my mind that you were related in any way. You might question some of my motives with impunity, (if little accuracy) but an assertion that I play dirty will not stand.

[Katman]

Come on, dude, you know better than that, surely. There’s a world of difference in value between a clear, unambiguous report stating the facts surrounding an incident and the inevitable and pointless shitfight caused by some ill-conditioned busybody who freely admits he knows nothing about the incident declaring that: “Well there must have been SOMETHING you did to cause it”.


That's not actually what I say though, is it?

My words are more likely to be "I sure there must have been something you could have done to avoid it".

You continue to clutch at straws by trying to put words in my mouth.



Of course there’s always something someone could have done, or refrained from doing that would have resulted in a different outcome.

Yeah, that's more like it.

[Ocean1]

That's not actually what I say though, is it?

My words are more likely to be "I sure there must have been something you could have done to avoid it".

You continue to clutch at straws by trying to put words in my mouth.

I'm pleased at reports that you're attempting to modify your aproach. The fact is both statements have exactly the same meaning. The reason for either aproach is dubious, blame is implicit in both and both are equally innapropriate.


Yeah, that's more like it.

And the other words in my mouth?


Statements to that effect simply serve to identify someone who has an unworkably simplistic grasp of cause and effect.

[Katman]

The fact is both statements have exactly the same meaning.


And still you continue to show your lack of understanding of English. :facepalm:

[MSTRS]

Come on, dude, you know better than that, surely. There’s a world of difference in value between a clear, unambiguous report stating the facts surrounding an incident and the inevitable and pointless shitfight caused by some ill-conditioned busybody who freely admits he knows nothing about the incident declaring that: “Well there must have been SOMETHING you did to cause it”.

The facts are that someone crashed. No doubt there will have been a few contributing factors, and one over-riding reason.

“Just knowing”? I think your credibility is at an all time low with that one, dude. Of course there’s always something someone could have done, or refrained from doing that would have resulted in a different outcome. Statements to that effect simply serve to identify someone who has an unworkably simplistic grasp of cause and effect.

Simplistic or not, any experienced rider will 'just know' there was something that a rider could have, or not, done. You appear to be in agreement with what I said?
Cause and effect may be complex, or simple. The more factors involved in any crash, the more difficult it is to know what the main cause was, but there will be one for sure.

I note also that you use the word blame quite freely when describing the behaviour of those who you consider reluctant to accept responsibility for their accident, but you’re not happy to use the label to describe your intrusion into their affairs.



Responsibility does not necessarily equal blame. "Blame" is your word, not mine. I thought you understood context...in so much as 'responsibility' is used to mean 'sharing in the cause/s of a crash'.
And what intrusion? Whose affairs have I intruded upon?

[Ocean1]

Responsibility does not necessarily equal blame. "Blame" is your word, not mine. I thought you understood context...in so much as 'responsibility' is used to mean 'sharing in the cause/s of a crash'.


Sophistry. The semantic content is indistinguishable.


And what intrusion? Whose affairs have I intruded upon?

Those whom you presume to instruct.

I would normally have written off your continued refusal to understand what represents socially acceptable discourse as a simple mechanism of argument.

Your recent reinterpretation of a perfectly straightforward and inoffensive question as something you felt you should resent tends to indicate, though that you indeed have a tendency to read what you want no matter the actual words presented.

Whichever is the case I’ll sign off here. I expect you to continue to behave badly. You should expect me to point that out to you from time to time.

[James Deuce]

So, finally got the "word" on my accident. They fact that I was so messed up and my bike wasn't has left a lot of people very confused, SCU being part of that group. The newly accepted theory is that the sheep that took me out jumped at me and hit me in the chest and then landed on my head. Explains the rib injuries and smashed helmet I suppose and the fact my gear was more scuffed on the back than the front, despite me coming to on my front.

I'm still a fuckwit for not taking it easier after getting around a lot of stock on the road.

Speaking of bitching about bikers, when did Maungaraki become a Harley Haven and why the fuck do they have to be so loud and run so badly? I've ridden a lot of Harleys and none of them run as badly as a couple Softails that go backwards and forwards up Dowse Dr, sounding like a like a couple of badly shot up Messerschmitts about to smack into the English channel after being filled with Browning's finest .303 rounds. I'm starting to get pissed off at being woken at 6 in the morning by these inconsiderate bastards.

[Spearfish]

585 and counting

[MSTRS]

I expect you to continue to behave badly. You should expect me to point that out to you from time to time.

Your interpretation.
I'll continue to believe that every rider carries the responsibility for how they ride etc, and in most crashes the rider will bear some of the responsibility, and in some cases all of the blame, for what happened. And I'll continue to say so.

[yungatart]

So, finally got the "word" on my accident. They fact that I was so messed up and my bike wasn't has left a lot of people very confused, SCU being part of that group. The newly accepted theory is that the sheep that took me out jumped at me and hit me in the chest and then landed on my head. Explains the rib injuries and smashed helmet I suppose and the fact my gear was more scuffed on the back than the front, despite me coming to on my front.

I'm still a fuckwit for not taking it easier after getting around a lot of stock on the road.

Speaking of bitching about bikers, when did Maungaraki become a Harley Haven and why the fuck do they have to be so loud and run so badly? I've ridden a lot of Harleys and none of them run as badly as a couple Softails that go backwards and forwards up Dowse Dr, sounding like a like a couple of badly shot up Messerschmitts about to smack into the English channel after being filled with Browning's finest .303 rounds. I'm starting to get pissed off at being woken at 6 in the morning by these inconsiderate bastards.

So do you not agree with SCU, Jim? That sounds like one very angry sheep to charge you like that...

As for your new neighbours...how rude! You could always set a sheep on to them....

[oneofsix]

So, finally got the "word" on my accident. They fact that I was so messed up and my bike wasn't has left a lot of people very confused, SCU being part of that group. The newly accepted theory is that the sheep that took me out jumped at me and hit me in the chest and then landed on my head. Explains the rib injuries and smashed helmet I suppose and the fact my gear was more scuffed on the back than the front, despite me coming to on my front.

I'm still a fuckwit for not taking it easier after getting around a lot of stock on the road.

Speaking of bitching about bikers, when did Maungaraki become a Harley Haven and why the fuck do they have to be so loud and run so badly? I've ridden a lot of Harleys and none of them run as badly as a couple Softails that go backwards and forwards up Dowse Dr, sounding like a like a couple of badly shot up Messerschmitts about to smack into the English channel after being filled with Browning's finest .303 rounds. I'm starting to get pissed off at being woken at 6 in the morning by these inconsiderate bastards.

Must have been a black sheep cause white sheep can't jump :corn:
not often a sheep will jump high enough to hit a biker in the chest :shit:

[avgas]

Sorry have been too busy with life lately.
Whats happened since I was last here?

Was Katman expelled?
Do we still argue semantics?
Is it ok to not wave?

[Edbear]

Must have been a black sheep cause white sheep can't jump :corn:
not often a sheep will jump high enough to hit a biker in the chest :shit:

Not often sure but chest high is no problem to a sheep. They do crazy unpredictable things at times...


Sorry have been too busy with life lately.
Whats happened since I was last here?

Was Katman expelled?
Do we still argue semantics?
Is it ok to not wave?

You have a life..???? KB isn't your life..????:blink:

[R-Soul]

Can't be stuffed reading the whole thread,but my thoughts re bikers are own worst enemy,whose fault was/is the crash etc.IF you crash and don't learn from said crash,YOU are a bloody idiot.
And yep the road conditions might be dodgy,i.e oil and rain,but unless the riding is at night you surely can see the slick to avoid,hence maybe rider error,no way getting at anyone who has crashed.
I came through Manawatu Gorge tonight in dark,the road was wet,heaps of traffic making it difficult to see,but my intuition was to slow down,sure enough a few pieces of rock had fallen,managed to dodge and stay in my lane,but if I'd crashed was it my fault?For sure-as I wasn't able to avoid,maybe due to speed(nope,had slown down due to night etc),visibility(maybe,was showery,visor and oncoming lights),or inattention-bingo,not paying due dilligence to the road,was it an accident if I had crashed,not really,accidents are unavoidable,this scenario and many others are avoidable.

Well said. Ocean 1 would prefer to carry on as usual, full speed ahead and fuck the icebrgs, and then get upset when people criticise his riding for 'causing an accident' online while he is in hospital.


IF you crash and don't learn from said crash,YOU are a bloody idiot.

If you see others crashing, and dont learn from them crashing, then to my mind, you are just as much of a bloody idiot. But apparently others crashes are none of our business.

[R-Soul]

Interestingly, a bus driver who rounded the corner soon after me claimed that many a rider had gone down in the same spot, why no one had reported it is beyond me.


Probably bedcause they were all ego driven and reluctant to admit they had any part in the accidents- as Ocean would have it.

Biking is one environment where ego just doesn't fit. In order to improve, it takes the humbling realisation that
- there are always better riders than you, that
- you can always be better than you are now, and
- only really discussing it without ego and with honesty about what you could have done differently, will you improve.

We are not adovocating balme at all. We are advocating NOT allocating blame ( to teh car driver, authorities, or anyone else - even ourselves). Just being honest about what we could have done differently ourselves.

I personally dont hang about this place to compare cock sizes with egomaniacs. I come here to try and learn from others mistakes.

[avgas]

You have a life..???? KB isn't your life..????:blink:
Hahaha no not my life.
With Jr on the way in a month there is a lot to be setup for the little spark. The plan going that he will have a life unlike his father :)

[MSTRS]

Your recent reinterpretation of a perfectly straightforward and inoffensive question as something you felt you should resent tends to indicate, though that you indeed have a tendency to read what you want no matter the actual words presented.


Pot/Kettle, my friend...



I'll continue to believe that every rider carries the responsibility for how they ride etc, and in most crashes the rider will bear some of the responsibility, and in some cases all of the blame, for what happened. And I'll continue to say so.

Was in a rush this morning...and missed the oh so important fact that there will also be a few crashes (accidents :blink:) where the rider bore no blame, nor any responsibility, although these happen much less often than some would have us believe.

Anyone who gets upset and crybaby when such as myself points out these simple facts...well...just who is it that has the problem?

And now that this part of my opening post appears to have struggled to an impasse, perhaps it's time to remind you lot of the second part of 'my gripe'....those who are unhappy with Bronz, Magnz, etc. Is there something stopping you from 'doing better'?

[Spearfish]

Who sells bronze mags?

Probably made from the division bell............