Still they go on and on and on...

[Paul in NZ]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/4998203/Convicted-Nazi-death-camp-guard-John-Demjanjuk-freed/

Ooops - looks like he might not actually be Ivan the Terrible... Oh dear...

Poor bastard, get conscripted into the Red Army (pretty damn traumatic event right there), caputured by the Germans (most of them were shot on the spot) and gets an offer to become a prison camp guard which I would think was a once in a lifetime offer (ie, refuse and we shoot you or starve you to death)

I mean I'm sure he was brutal but he was in a brutal situation and lots of Jews were dobbed in by fellow Jews... Christ, over 3 times as many Russians died as did people in concentration camps and in often far worse conditions - is it any wonder he took up the guard job? Lots of Jews did too....

I'm all for them chasing legit targets but this one always seemed a bit wiffy. Its time to get over this, this poor bastard should never have been subjected to this mess, its not really a great look IMHO.

[trustme]

So you are suggesting a statute of limitations on murder. How long should it be, 50 years, 30,10,5, it's a slippery slope to start down.
There was a case to answer.

[Paul in NZ]

So you are suggesting a statute of limitations on murder. How long should it be, 50 years, 30,10,5, it's a slippery slope to start down.
There was a case to answer.

Then you would need to try every combatant. It also depends on you definition of murder. The seal team that took out Osama could well be accused of murder

[Scuba_Steve]

So you are suggesting a statute of limitations on murder. How long should it be, 50 years, 30,10,5, it's a slippery slope to start down.
There was a case to answer.

When is Bush & Cheney answering theirs???

[avgas]

So you are suggesting a statute of limitations on murder. How long should it be, 50 years, 30,10,5, it's a slippery slope to start down.
There was a case to answer.
So let me get this straight. If you (and 1000's of others) catch something from a bottle of milk - you would then sentence the milkman to death......or fonterra.

War sucks, but REVENGE is supposedly worse.

[yod]

When is Bush & Cheney answering theirs???

That's different, they're American and they have god on their side (the right god, of course)

[oneofsix]

So you are suggesting a statute of limitations on murder. How long should it be, 50 years, 30,10,5, it's a slippery slope to start down.
There was a case to answer.

accessory to mass murder, war crimes or murder; different things. He had already been tried before for murder but found not guilty as it was a case of mistaken identity.
He wasn't convicted and discharged either more a case of time served.

[Scuba_Steve]

That's different, they're American and they have god on their side (the right god, of course)

America, fuck yeah! So lick my butt and suck on my balls!

http://parterre.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Team_america.jpg

[Maki]

Then you would need to try every combatant. It also depends on you definition of murder. The seal team that took out Osama could well be accused of murder

Let me get that right? Are you saying that a highly trained military who shoots an old unarmed man could well be accused of murder? It seems a bit more clear cut to me. He is a murderer, the same as any other assassin.

[oneofsix]

That's different, they're American and they have god on their side (the right god, of course)

tut tut their god is the one with the capital g. But God has nothing to do with it, the victor gets to write the history, at least initially, and set up the war crimes trials and they, rightly or wrongly, have been allowed to consider themselves the victors.

[huff3r]

Then you would need to try every combatant. It also depends on you definition of murder. The seal team that took out Osama could well be accused of murder

Not true. As part of an armed force of a nation, one is allowed to kill, at any time, and without warning, any other member of another armed force of another nation without it constituting murder. It is a legal get-around in the Defence Act.

It is written into near every countries laws, so the only ones you could try for murder are those who kill: civilians, terrorists (as long as the terrorists do not attack first, cos then its self defence), or any other non-uniformed personnel.

So yeah, the seal team committed murder. As did many involved in the concentration camps, but to say all combatants is a bit of a far stretch.

[oneofsix]

Not true. As part of an armed force of a nation, one is allowed to kill, at any time, and without warning, any other member of another armed force of another nation without it constituting murder. It is a legal get-around in the Defence Act.

It is written into near every countries laws, so the only ones you could try for murder are those who kill: civilians, terrorists (as long as the terrorists do not attack first, cos then its self defence), or any other non-uniformed personnel.

So yeah, the seal team committed murder. As did many involved in the concentration camps, but to say all combatants is a bit of a far stretch.

If correct that needs a rewrite. How do you define armed forces, from the quoted post it appears to be by uniform but what defines a uniform, are black pjs a uniform? Waht about the hat all the Taliban wear, other than that there doesn't seem to be much of a uniform. Terrorists need to be redefined as armed forces, personally I would allow for surrender for armed forces but not terrorists.

[huff3r]

If correct that needs a rewrite. How do you define armed forces, from the quoted post it appears to be by uniform but what defines a uniform, are black pjs a uniform? Waht about the hat all the Taliban wear, other than that there doesn't seem to be much of a uniform. Terrorists need to be redefined as armed forces, personally I would allow for surrender for armed forces but not terrorists.

The definition of armed forces is also laid out in the Defence Act. It is the NATIONAL armed force of a country, hence why terrorists are not included, and may only be shot in self defence. Yes its a bit short-sighted, but it is part of the wider international set of laws set out in the Geneva conventions. And the uniformed part refers to wether they are a real soldier, or just a civvy working for the armed force. Eg. Airforce personnel: mechanics can be shot, librarians can't.

The Defence Act was written in order to legally define New Zealands armed forces, and to legally allow us to have an armed force. Most countries have a similar act, which lays out the identity, rights and responsibilities of their armed forces.

[yod]

tut tut their god is the one with the capital g. But God has nothing to do with it, the victor gets to write the history, at least initially, and set up the war crimes trials and they, rightly or wrongly, have been allowed to consider themselves the victors.

tut tut? sorry?

Ask them if their imaginary friend/god has nothing to do with it and see what they say.

[avgas]

Let me get that right? Are you saying that a highly trained military who shoots an old unarmed man could well be accused of murder? It seems a bit more clear cut to me. He is a murderer, the same as any other assassin.
Last time I checked - you went after the country of origin, rather than the assassin.
In the case of contract killers - who issued the contract.

[imdying]

Not true. As part of an armed force of a nation, one is allowed to kill, at any time, and without warning, any other member of another armed force of another nation without it constituting murder. It is a legal get-around in the Defence Act.Yup, that's correct, it must be ok to kill because the words say so :facepalm:

[oldrider]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/4998203/Convicted-Nazi-death-camp-guard-John-Demjanjuk-freed/

Ooops - looks like he might not actually be Ivan the Terrible... Oh dear...

Poor bastard, get conscripted into the Red Army (pretty damn traumatic event right there), caputured by the Germans (most of them were shot on the spot) and gets an offer to become a prison camp guard which I would think was a once in a lifetime offer (ie, refuse and we shoot you or starve you to death)

I mean I'm sure he was brutal but he was in a brutal situation and lots of Jews were dobbed in by fellow Jews... Christ, over 3 times as many Russians died as did people in concentration camps and in often far worse conditions - is it any wonder he took up the guard job? Lots of Jews did too....

I'm all for them chasing legit targets but this one always seemed a bit wiffy. Its time to get over this, this poor bastard should never have been subjected to this mess, its not really a great look IMHO.

They don't want their own to forget that they must stand alone and aloof from the rest of the world!

It's their point of difference: "Divided they stand, united they fall"

United with or integrated with the rest of the world the chosen race would soon disappear and be forgotten!

Well this is what I was told by one of their prominent citizens many years ago. :yes:

[trustme]

US Justice found him not guilty , hey OJ did not do it either remember.I don't have much faith in the American judicial system

You evaded my real point, the Germans felt there was a case to answer. They put that case before the court for the court to decide whether he was guilty or innocent. Ultimately he was found guilty. Should the German justice system not have prosecuted simply because so much time had elapsed as you seem to suggest ??
I repeat that I think that is a very slippery slope.

[avgas]

the Germans felt there was a case to answer. They put that case before the court for the court to decide whether he was guilty or innocent. Ultimately he was found guilty. Should the German justice system not have prosecuted simply because so much time had elapsed as you seem to suggest ??
I repeat that I think that is a very slippery slope.
Name one useful point that will be achieved prosecuting him?
Slippery slope to where?

Or are you one of those "If there is a case to answer - hell or high water it will be answered" types?
If so start crossword puzzles - or at lease something you can finish in your lifetime.

[Paul in NZ]

US Justice found him not guilty , hey OJ did not do it either remember.I don't have much faith in the American judicial system

You evaded my real point, the Germans felt there was a case to answer. They put that case before the court for the court to decide whether he was guilty or innocent. Ultimately he was found guilty. Should the German justice system not have prosecuted simply because so much time had elapsed as you seem to suggest ??
I repeat that I think that is a very slippery slope.

Sorry - I really think this is just some kind of mental PC whitewashing in that they had to find him guilty of 'something' having cocked up his identity and kept him in jail for years already.

The bloody Germans capture him, make him become a guard (6 months only) in a bloody camp they built and now the Germans find him guilty of being an accessory to murder because he was there and there was a possibility he might have escaped? There is not on shred of evidence that he ever hurt or killed anyone, he was just the lowest ranked 'guard' in the place. No worse than a Jewish 'trustee' prisoner.

The families of people who died at the camp that are baying for punishment yet no one is even sure what he did there? I'll bet there was a town nearby and some towns people knew what was happening, they were there, they could have stopped it, lets go after them too....

I'm sorry - its just plain nuts to chase this guy..... Not a slippery slope, nothing, he didnt murder anyone, might not have even shouted at anyone, indeed they have not been able to find a single shred of evidence in all this time that he ever did.

There were many many atrocities in that war and indeed all wars but I think that whats been done to this guy is a deliberate injustice to cover up a mistaken identity, to show the world that the germans were really nice guys and it was only 'the nazis' that ever did anything wrong and to keep the 'cause' in the headlines. Its genuinely pathetic!

[James Deuce]

There were many many atrocities in that war and indeed all wars but I think that whats been done to this guy is a deliberate injustice to cover up a mistaken identity, to show the world that the germans were really nice guys and it was only 'the nazis' that ever did anything wrong and to keep the 'cause' in the headlines. Its genuinely pathetic!

There was one in Featherston. One bloke killed most of those 48 dead Japanese PoWs and 1 Kiwi camp guard. He was celebrated as a hero. The Great-Grandfather of Emily Longley who just died in the UK was a conscientious objector but joined the NZ Army as a medic and he was severely criticised (and punished) for pulling wounded Japanese out of the line of fire and giving first aid. They ignored the fact that he also helped 6 Kiwi prison guards also wounded.

You guys can rant all you want about John Demjanjuk being a murdering prison guard from WWII. We have our own.

Know why those Japanese soldiers had a sit down protest? They were deeply ashamed at having been captured and thought that they were being illegally forced to work for the enemy. No one told them that they were being sent to work on farms. They thought they were being marched off to be killed or worked to death and one of their officers was unaware that it was legal for PoWs to be used in work gangs. Many of them were suicidal and the cultural differences were ignored. Poor communication and a prison guard whose brother had been killed by the Japanese resulted in an atrocity, that most of the population of NZ celebrated at the time.

Also the blather about war differentiating between combatants and non-combatants is utter rubbish. Russia lost more non-combatants than the Allies combined combatant losses.

If there were issues of legality, why did Great Britain choose to start bombing centres of population? Remember they started their "Strategic" bombing prior to the Battle of Britain and Hitler's subsequent decision to bomb London.

The decision making hierarchy who devised and managed the Holocaust are long dead. If anyone wants to point fingers as to why a lot of the senior and middle management of the death camps got away and died in obscurity and exile, the finger needs to be pointed squarely at the post-war West German Intelligence service, populated and run by ex-Nazis, many of the ex-Gestapo. Recently declassified documents show that these guys let their mates get away and in many cases helped to hide them from their persecutors. I'm not suggesting that the Holocaust was "right" or that the perpetrators shouldn't be brought to justice. The reality is that the really evil bastards who thought it up and carried it out are dead. Long dead. Hunting down men in their 90s who were teenagers during WWII is not in any way securing justice for the victims of the Holocaust.

[imdying]

Hunting down men in their 90s who were teenagers during WWII is not in any way securing justice for the victims of the Holocaust.Amen. They've had a long time to live with it in any case.

[trustme]

Name one useful point that will be achieved prosecuting him?
Slippery slope to where?

Or are you one of those "If there is a case to answer - hell or high water it will be answered" types?
If so start crossword puzzles - or at lease something you can finish in your lifetime.

Please provide me with an exact definition of which cases should be prosecuted & which should not. Are you promoting selective justice, no one has come even remotely close to defining what constitutes a worthy prosecution & what does not.
I have the greatest sympathy for the guy in Kaiapoi who dealt to the burglars, however if he gave those guys the bash & acted out side the law & a complaint is laid the cops have little choice but to lay charges, place evidence before the court & allow the courts to decide. Personally I hope to hell he gets off
If some arsewipe killed your mum & did not get caught for 50 years would you be saying ' never mind lets have a group hug ' because that is in effect what you are promoting . It is a slippery slope you are starting down.

[Katman]

It appears hell hath no fury like a jew scorned.

[trustme]

6 million of then can't be wrong .:sick::sick::sick::sick:

[oldrider]

One can't help noticing that for such a tiny % of the world population they always seem to lurk prominently in world conflict, discention and intrigue! :mellow:

[Dadpole]

Many years ago, I lived down the road from a house with a double set of high fences and only a couple of small windows. Inside lived a woman who had survived the camps and had the tattoo on her wrist. She spent the remainder of her life remembering what had been done to her and her family and living in fear of another late night knock on the door. Anybody responsible that type of terror deserves to face justice no matter how long it takes.

[Winston001]

I mean I'm sure he was brutal but he was in a brutal situation....

Its time to get over this...

Least we forget, Paul.

Not revenge, not punishment, not compensation, simply Justice. Its as simple as that.

[specter]

The seal team that took out Osama could well be accused of murder

as long as he wasn't brandishing a weapon... yes

but we'll never know will we

[James Deuce]

Least we forget, Paul.

Not revenge, not punishment, not compensation, simply Justice. Its as simple as that.

It's 'Lest' and it isn't justice to hunt down forced conscripts. Justice was served at Nuremberg. There have been very few of the surviving Holocaust organising cabal hunted down since then, apart from Adolf Eichmann.

This stinks of an organisation rapidly running out of potential targets attempting to justify its continued existence.

Given the logic displayed in this thread Jack Owen, the camp guard at Featherston who did most of the shooting should have been executed for war crimes.

[jaffaonajappa]

Errr.
This topics kinda sensitive yeah - why dont some of yas (Am refraining from pointing fingers here) do some study on it before goin and making alkl them statements.

And....by-the-by.....had to watch this a coupla weeks ago. A bit dry in parts, but the 2nd half of it was an eye opener.
torrent the movie if ya want to know what happened in the camps in WW2 - includes an interview in early '90's with a repentant Nazi Medical doctor - stunning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgiving_Dr._Mengele

[jaffaonajappa]

There was one in Featherston. One bloke killed most of those 48 dead Japanese PoWs and 1 Kiwi camp guard. He was celebrated as a hero.

No. From what I have heard - he was half crazed after hearing his brother (think it was brother) had been murdered by the Japs (Possibly beheaded in fact) - and it was suspected this was some form of madness/revenge. It does seem to have been kept under the covers - but hes long gone now - however his family still bear the brunt of all them 'what if' questions Im sure. How the hell can you claim he was celebrated as a hero? Which history book implied this?

[James Deuce]

Errr.
This topics kinda sensitive yeah - why dont some of yas (Am refraining from pointing fingers here) do some study on it before goin and making alkl them statements.

And....by-the-by.....had to watch this a coupla weeks ago. A bit dry in parts, but the 2nd half of it was an eye opener.
torrent the movie if ya want to know what happened in the camps in WW2 - includes an interview in early '90's with a repentant Nazi Medical doctor - stunning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgiving_Dr._Mengele

The irony is that Joseph Mengele advanced the knowledge of human anatomy and physiology enormously, especially through the vivisection of those with chromosomal disorders and other crippling pathologies. The developments that lead to open heart surgery and neuro-surgery show clear links to his work.

[James Deuce]

No. From what I have heard - he was half crazed after hearing his brother (think it was brother) had been murdered by the Japs (Possibly beheaded in fact) - and it was suspected this was some form of madness/revenge. It does seem to have been kept under the covers - but hes long gone now - however his family still bear the brunt of all them 'what if' questions Im sure. How the hell can you claim he was celebrated as a hero? Which history book implied this?

Half crazed? It isn't an excuse to commit a crime. There's a myth that senior Nazis were insane. I don' t believe they were at all.

History books don't tell the whole story - the camp medic I refer to is family and I have spoken with extended family throughout the Wairarapa. Books are only one source of history and they are often devoid of emotion, prejudice and bigotry. That camp medic was treated poorly by some in his family. He's a coward you see. In my view, he's one of the bravest people I've ever met. You can see clear evidence throughout KB how a little misinformation can colour people's responses negatively about people who do not deserve hatred and disdain.

[jaffaonajappa]

This


You can see clear evidence throughout KB how a little misinformation can colour people's responses negatively about people who do not deserve hatred and disdain.

+1.

Who has that motto - Live and Let live?

[Winston001]

It's 'Lest' and it isn't justice to hunt down forced conscripts. Justice was served at Nuremberg. There have been very few of the surviving Holocaust organising cabal hunted down since then, apart from Adolf Eichmann.

This stinks of an organisation rapidly running out of potential targets attempting to justify its continued existence.

Given the logic displayed in this thread Jack Owen, the camp guard at Featherston who did most of the shooting should have been executed for war crimes.

Oops my bad, did ponder that, should have remembered Kipling.

I'm not going to argue. Its a sensitive subject. The Holocaust is a vast black reminder to every human of the evil that men do. Lest we forget.

[Paul in NZ]

Oops my bad, did ponder that, should have remembered Kipling.

I'm not going to argue. Its a sensitive subject. The Holocaust is a vast black reminder to every human of the evil that men do. Lest we forget.

Exactly which is why I got a bit wound up about the bloody germans (of all people) finding this guy guilty of something they caused? This poor prick was forcibly conscripted by both sides into a war that he wanted nothing to do with. He has been in jail (mainly on death row) for years for something he didnt do, lost his US citizenship, lost everthing and this is all they can find him guilty off? What the heck is he supposed to do now as a stateless 91 year old?

There are thousands, no millions of borderline war crimes but it seems only ones committed (or not in this case) against jewish victims matter? Its pathetic that they would revictimise this poor bastard again and again for jusr being in the wrong place.

This is a lot of things but its not justice.....

Christ - he survived Stalin, Hitler, the worst israel could do and not the fuggin Germans want another crack. Shit, he was born under a lucky star eh?

[Dadpole]

on a lighter note: The the family of the guard killed (by his own side) in Featherston are after a medal for him as he "Died while on active service" :facepalm:

[Dadpole]

There are thousands, no millions of borderline war crimes but it seems only ones committed (or not in this case) against jewish victims matter

For a long time, they have been the only ones pushing the matter. It is good PR for them. I note however, that they fail to ever mention any non-jewish victims.

[schrodingers cat]

tut tut their god is the one with the capital g. But God has nothing to do with it, the victor gets to write the history, at least initially, and set up the war crimes trials and they, rightly or wrongly, have been allowed to consider themselves the victors.

Strictly speaking, Jews, Christians and Muslims all agree that they have the same God. It is the prophets where they fall out.

[Paul in NZ]

Strictly speaking, Jews, Christians and Muslims all agree that they have the same God. It is the prophets where they fall out.

I dont think prophets are the real issue - its the profits where the real problems lay.

[huff3r]

I dont think prophets are the real issue - its the profits where the real problems lay.

Well War IS good for the economy.... :yes:

[jaffaonajappa]

I dont think prophets are the real issue - its the profits where the real problems lay.

In recent wars - certainly.
But again - this thread is about WW2 and the attempted Genocide of certain races/religions. Germany may have initially bought into that madness resulting from financial practical needs - but by the time the Mass murdering began - there was no longer Any attempt at finding an excuse. It wasnt about the money at that stage.

Respect.

[Katman]

Imagine this......

You're locked in a room with a stranger, given a gun and told that if you don't execute the other person that you yourself will be executed (and there is absolutely no doubt that the threat will be carried out).

I wonder what most people would do.

(And I'm not asking people to give their answer - it's simply something to think about).

[jaffaonajappa]

Imagine this......

You're locked in a room with a stranger, given a gun and told that if you don't execute the other person that you yourself will be executed (and there is absolutely no doubt that the threat will be carried out).

I wonder what most would do.

Really?
OK - following on a bit.....say you repeat this process 5 times, then a 100 times, eventually you are a trusted member of the Team. 50,000 prisoners, hundreds of guards, with 20 bosses (Read: SS Officers). At what stage would you make an attempt to quit/flee/escape?

[Katman]

Really?
OK - following on a bit.....say you repeat this process 5 times, then a 100 times, eventually you are a trusted member of the Team. 50,000 prisoners, hundreds of guards, with 20 bosses (Read: SS Officers). At what stage would you make an attempt to quit/flee/escape?

Let's not get carried away.

The thread is about one guard.

[jaffaonajappa]

Let's not get carried away.

The thread is about one guard.

And for arguments sake - Im agreeing that at some stage he may have had to make the choice: Murder or be murdered. Perhaps. But after a while - after he had faced that choice several times, and hed become a 'regular guard'....was he still facing that choice? Theres some amazing stories of Germans who refused the Nazis in WW2. Albeit - not many captured Russians.

[jaffaonajappa]

At the risk of thread hijacking or whatever its called...Going slightly off-topic from the one at the beginning - but related in that 'The real story is not always known to the public' - some current news.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5003191/Officer-breaks-rank-over-the-Battle-of-Crete

[trustme]

Let's not get carried away.

The thread is about one guard.

Nope, at this threads core is that this guy was too old & it was too long ago so he should not be held responsible & by all accounts this constitutes justice.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me the cut off age for prosecuting murderers cos I might be getting close & there a few scores to settle:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Also need to know how long I have to hide from prosecution before the statute of limitations on prosecution for murder kicks in.:2guns::2guns::2guns:

So far no takers, not even an attempt to provide an answer

[Paul in NZ]

Nope, at this threads core is that this guy was too old & it was too long ago so he should not be held responsible & by all accounts this constitutes justice.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me the cut off age for prosecuting murderers cos I might be getting close & there a few scores to settle:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Also need to know how long I have to hide from prosecution before the statute of limitations on prosecution for murder kicks in.:2guns::2guns::2guns:

So far no takers, not even an attempt to provide an answer

No - thats NOT what this is about. There a good chance he didnt do anything and the best they can do is turn up a probably faked ID in a similar name which means (even if it was real) at worst he was a guard for 6 months.... Bearing in mind they have aready got his identity wrong once before when the said he was Ivan the Terrible.

I feel sorry for him because hes rooted and been persecuted by every nation you can think of (Russians, Germans, USA, Israel and now the bloody Germans again) for nearly his whole life. I admire the fact he hasnt topped himself and just resolutely refuses to say a bloody word because it just does not matter what he says - hes 'guilty' and it just goes on and on and on...

Worst of all I hate the way he has been chased by cunts whos worst experience has been a paper cut and the hardest choice they ever made was whether to become a lawyer or a banker. These people wind up other victims of WW2 and talk about 'justice' etc and ride the gravy train forever on the back of this poor bastard.

Its just plain obscene...

[Winston001]

There are thousands, no millions of borderline war crimes but it seems only ones committed (or not in this case) against jewish victims matter?



Sorry Paul, I don't doubt your sincerity but this is simply wrong. Right now war crime trials are taking place in the Hague for atrocities in Serbia and Bosnia in the 1990s. Furthermore there are trials for war crimes in Cambodia during the Pol Pot regime, in Tanzania for the Rwanda massacre, and in Liberia for war crimes in Sierra Leone.

War crimes have nothing to do with the religion or culture of the victims - they are simply humans who have been brutally slaughtered. Would you not speak up for them?

[Paul in NZ]

Sorry Paul, I don't doubt your sincerity but this is simply wrong. Right now war crime trials are taking place in the Hague for atrocities in Serbia and Bosnia in the 1990s. Furthermore there are trials for war crimes in Cambodia during the Pol Pot regime, in Tanzania for the Rwanda massacre, and in Liberia for war crimes in Sierra Leone.

War crimes have nothing to do with the religion or culture of the victims - they are simply humans who have been brutally slaughtered. Would you not speak up for them?

Yes I would and I'm very aware of it. One of our very very good friends is an investigator for the UN... I'm rather astonishingly aware of what goes on - to a level that leaves me wondering about humans being worth the bother at all - certainly some continents should just be leveled and restarted if I was going down that track .

Its just this case that irritates me. At best he was a very low level slave of the SS and it just seems unfair to chase him so hard when so many others are ignored. Its crazy.

[Sable]

Kill or be killed. Desert and be shot. If he wasn't doing it it would have been someone else and one more person being cremated alive.

[98tls]

Isnt the Bible full of words like "forgiveness" and phrases like "he who casts the first stone" or similar?Am not a religious person at all but these "children of god" or whatever Jews consider themselves sure seem to have a lot of un god like shit going on.

[imdying]

Really?
OK - following on a bit.....say you repeat this process 5 times, then a 100 times, eventually you are a trusted member of the Team. 50,000 prisoners, hundreds of guards, with 20 bosses (Read: SS Officers). At what stage would you make an attempt to quit/flee/escape?Flee?!?!?! :gob:

You've got free reign to shoot as many jews as you like and you want to leave? What the hell is wrong with you? :blink:

[imdying]

Sorry Paul, I don't doubt your sincerity but this is simply wrong. Right now war crime trials are taking place in the Hague for atrocities in Serbia and Bosnia in the 1990s. Furthermore there are trials for war crimes in Cambodia during the Pol Pot regime, in Tanzania for the Rwanda massacre, and in Liberia for war crimes in Sierra Leone.I think he was thinking of the dicks on the allies side that did just as bad as the 3rd Reich goons? Fat Man and Little Boy? Surely that's the worst war crime ever?

[oneofsix]

Isnt the Bible full of words like "forgiveness" and phrases like "he who casts the first stone" or similar?Am not a religious person at all but these "children of god" or whatever Jews consider themselves sure seem to have a lot of un god like shit going on.

Those quotes are from the new testament, the one that tells the story of Jesus. They apply to the Christians not the Jews. Jews books in the bible are the old testament and are fill of phrases like tooth for a tooth and eye for an eye, exhortation to genocide. Now the Jews books go past the start of the new testament, and cover WWII but I am not familiar with them, not that I would say I was familiar with the Bible :Wink:

[trustme]

Practical application of Kiwi Biker Logic

Ratko Mladic

It's 16 years, lets move on
He was a soldier just following orders
He's old, what's the point
He's unwell what's the point
It's causing unrest in Serbia for no good reason
It's not justice but politics, the govt has turned him over so they can get better access to euro markets

He's a scapegoat & it sucks

YEAH RIGHT :shit::shit::shit::shit:

He has to be accountable for his actions, it was no different for JD.
Both had a case to answer,the courts decide whether there is sufficient evidence to prove the case. Hopefully both will be held to account

We wonder why the world is in such a mess, it's no wonder when people can no longer differentiate between right & wrong, we just run around blurring the edges to mitigate wrong doing.

[avgas]

We wonder why the world is in such a mess, it's no wonder when people can no longer differentiate between right & wrong, we just run around blurring the edges to mitigate wrong doing.
Very true however you have to realize that every race has got it a little fucked up and wrong.

I don't imagine it was his orders.......there is always a bigger fish.
We have is pretty sweet here, in some countries its "do as I say or die".

I don't think its squeaky clean, but I don't think its worth a court case. Just lock him up for the rest of his life. Why waste people time to prove it?

[Paul in NZ]

Oh FFS. Stop trying to widen the argument to all war criminal. The guy I'm refering to was 19 years old when the war started. Up until then the soviets killed millions of his countrymen and then suddenly they needed bodies so he was forced to join up to fight the germans, wounded captured and forced to fight the soviets... There is very little proof he did anything else. Both sides in WW2 wanted him dead it seems.

They arrested him originally because they thought he was someone else entirely ffs... They just dont want to admit that they are the latest to make this poor cunts life a misery.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/demjanjuk-declines-chance-final-statement-german-trial-ahead-090235528.html

One of the people prosecuting him 'had family' that might have died there and said it was good that he was tried so that people wouldnt forget what happened... Even if he was there he didnt bloody want to be and the ONLY reason these cunts want him found guilty is to set a prescedent so they can go after a whole bunch of other very low level flunkies.... Thus the gravy train and the whole industry goes on and on and on.....

To compare him to a senior military commander that actively participated in war crimes is utterly pathetic. Tell ya what - that picture of the small boy whos hair he touselled could have stopped him - lets prosecute him too

[trustme]

Don't deny he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The German army on the Russian front had 300000 Hiwis or non Germans from invaded countries plus Romanian. Hungarian & Italian divisions. Many Ukranians hated the Russians & were more than happy to serve the Germans at the first opportunity.
You have made it abundantly clear that you believe he should not have been prosecuted
You have never even attempted to answer my question as to what justifies a prosecution, you obviously have no idea other than a gut reaction

I believe that if there is sufficient evidence for a prosecution then a charge should be laid & it is for the courts to decide. If the charge can't be proved then the accused goes free, if it is proved then the accused is sentenced . In this case I agree with the judges sentence. I do not see the sense in putting him in jail , but I do think it is important that the process was followed.
If we start to arbitrarily decide which case is worth prosecuting & which is not based on emotions without regard to facts than we no longer have a justice system. it ain't perfect but it beats anarchy

[Winston001]

And the Latvians. Don't forget the Latvian concentration camp guards. They were the most brutal and feared in the camps. And they weren't Germans.

[trustme]

Just the chap. All I have ever wanted was for someone to put a line in the sand, to give a set of parameters that justified prosecution or otherwise. I'm still waiting. I don't have anything against this guy , I simply believe if there was a case to be answered then he should answer it, no one has given me a credible arguement to the contrary

Batter up Winston, am I wrong??

[Paul in NZ]

Just the chap. All I have ever wanted was for someone to put a line in the sand, to give a set of parameters that justified prosecution or otherwise. I'm still waiting. I don't have anything against this guy , I simply believe if there was a case to be answered then he should answer it, no one has given me a credible arguement to the contrary

Batter up Winston, am I wrong??

You are a wind up merchant and this is my last post here.... I've placed my line in the sand from post one - there is no real case to answer..... thats the point. They got it wrong and then cooked this up with very little real evidence of any sort because they didnt want to admit it. It took them YEARS to find anything that sort of placed him (or a guy with a similar name) in a camp (a different camp than he was arrested for). Suddenly survivors 'identified him'... Some of them were not even at the camp at the same time - its a crock.

Even if he was there and it was him. There is not one, I'll repeat that, NOT ONE shred of evidence that he hurt a single person or could have done anything to stop it. The only reason this is being done so that a legal precedent can be set so that 'Nazi Hunters' can keep their jobs and income chasing a diminishing pool of 'maybe' people.

If this was a normal 'murder' case he would never have been tried. There is a very very good chance he is innocent.

[Winston001]

Just the chap. All I have ever wanted was for someone to put a line in the sand, to give a set of parameters that justified prosecution or otherwise. I'm still waiting. I don't have anything against this guy , I simply believe if there was a case to be answered then he should answer it, no one has given me a credible arguement to the contrary

Batter up Winston, am I wrong??

No argument from me, I'm with you. :niceone:

I'm reading some stuff about morals http://www3.sympatico.ca/saburns/pg0412.htm which is interesting but hard going.

The 'line in the sand" changes over the centuries. Horrific things have been done by moral men. Salem witch trials, the Inquisition, Al Queda et al.

Edmund Burke said "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing". .

Nearly every guard, officer, and Nazi on trial at Nuremberg said they were obeying orders - as if that absolved them from participating in the hellish acts. If enough had refused, the Final Solution would have evaporated. Sometimes it only takes one person to make the difference.

[jaffaonajappa]

Sometimes it only takes one person to make the difference.

I like this.
I try to conduct myself thinking this is Right. And that Karma exists.

But NZ's full of too many hard arsed 'realists'.
Im afraid Winston, your going to get Burrrrrned.

Which is a pity - I admire your stance on the topic.

[avgas]

Sometimes it only takes one person to make the difference.
Revenge is never satisfied.

[trustme]

Justice is where evidence is gathered & placed before a court for the court to decide.

Revenge is what happened to the terrorists that attacked the Israeli team at the Munich Olympics

[Winston001]

Just following up with examples:

Hamza Ali al-Khateeb - 13yr old boy tortured and killed by Syrian security a few days ago. His death has sparked fresh riots and energised the peoples revolt in Syria.

Mohamed Bouazizi burned himself to death in protest in Tunisia, 17 December 2010. His death started the whole revolutionary cycle we are currently seeing in the Middle East.

Khaled Said was beaten to death by Egyptian police on 6 June 2010. The circumstances of his death were published around the world in a Facebook campaign and led to the successful uprising in Egypt.

One person can make a fundamental difference.

[jaffaonajappa]

a couple of other examples found here......the Israelis even have a name for these types....One Person makes a difference. Yad Visham.
Inspiring one is this japanese chap.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiune_Sugihara

Others listed here....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_Among_the_Nations

And most peeps have seen Schindlers list...