BOMBSHELL. MNZ and ACC Trail ride plans

[Ktmboy]

Right, where to start.

Some may have a better insight into this but I'll lay out the knowledge(yes, some may be hearsay) on what I have been hearing on the proposed changes or at least the course that MNZ,ACC and the Dept of Labour are going down.
I'll start with a few things and let the thread develope in the hope that if events take a turn for the worse then we as an off road comunity can band together. The changes if they happen will effect all events not presently covered by MNZ.
This will include The Sandpit, Epic Events, Over the Top Adventures, Ken Fells, Ardmore, MR Motorcycles trail rides, Dome Valley, Power Adventures etc etc.

They want to generate a code of safety standards and ethics which I feel is not a bad thing as we have all been to rides and races where the track and the standard of arrowing etc is not up to par. This is all good.

But how are they going to change this. Well the idea is that they will require a card type system to ensure every man, women and child with a dirt bike in NZ is licensed.
This means that when you turn up to a trail ride an official will be present with maybe an eftpos type machine to swipe you card. Of course who pays for this. You do.

Also the promotor will have to be audited and will have to pay for some beaurecrat from MNZ to check the track and be present during the event.
Again who pays?
This is all being done behind closed doors with MNZ and Wellington. This I do know.
One would think that people who run these events would be consulted. Waitemata MCC for example as an senior MNZ club would surely know what is being proposed and be against this as they run really great and affordable trail rides.
I've probably opened a huge can of worms and there are many more questions to be asked and answered but its better to be forewarned I guess.

[Rupe]

don't like the sound of all this.

Are you saying as well as a license we will have to pay a acc levey to ride??? or have I got that wrong?

[flyingcr250]

so what does that mean for places like the farm?

[Ktmboy]

Theoritically...When you turn up to the Poutu trail ride you will present your card(which you have paid for) to sign on and this will be recorded for the record.
ACC and MNZ could then have all your details on how often you crash, how much you cost the system.
Of course the ride will now cost you $50 instead of $35.

Imagine that during a trail ride an official pulls you over and asks for your license. This is being rediculous of course.:shutup:

[Ktmboy]

so what does that mean for places like the farm?

Anywhere you pay to ride. In Aussie as I understand its anywhere you ride regardless of if you paid or not.

[Woodman]

What if you are riding a road legal fully rego,d bike on said trail rides? The ACC levies are already paid.

[t595]

Looks like illegal riding will make a big comeback...

[Ktmboy]

What if you are riding a road legal fully rego,d bike on said trail rides? The ACC levies are already paid.

aaarh, next question.
As I said the closed door approach to this is the worrying part. Where is the consultation with the riders and the operators.
I know one of the indiviuals involved and this person is only a recent convert to the off road scene and has very limited experience with event management. He is employed as a "Project Manager" for this by MNZ.

[vr4king]

Hmmmmm I will reply in the morning I have very strong opinions on this which im sure some people wont agree with

GOOD THREAD TOPIC

[Ktmboy]

Looks like illegal riding will make a big comeback...

Correct. That is a major concern especially as its hard enough to get access to land.
Landowners will then tell us all to take a jump.
Unfortunately Wellington are removed from such activities.

[krad_nz]

Thanks for the info Tony. Thought something like this may raise its ugly head.

Soon enough you will need a license to play rugby, soccer or mountain biking. Where do you draw the line.

[RJM]

It will be unfortunate for the price of trail rides to go up but I don't think paying for a 'rider registration' card would be a bad way of collecting funds.

I felt pretty bad after countless visits to the hospital last year after breaking my foot at The Sandpit. I would hate to think what my total bill was and I hadn't contributed anything compared to a road (car or bike) where the users have already contributed to ACC.

[krad_nz]

Well we all already pay for any and every sort of injury via ACC levies from our rego etc.

So if they now take further ACC money via some sort of dirt bike license system I bet they won't reduce the other existing levies.

I really enjoy riding without having to worry about licenses, rego fee's, WOF's etc etc.

[K6K]

It will be unfortunate for the price of trail rides to go up but I don't think paying for a 'rider registration' card would be a bad way of collecting funds.

I felt pretty bad after countless visits to the hospital last year after breaking my foot at The Sandpit. I would hate to think what my total bill was and I hadn't contributed anything compared to a road (car or bike) where the users have already contributed to ACC.

You paid ACC levies in your bike fuel, car fuel and your wages like the majority of NZ does. ACC levies are included in wages, fuel and registration costs because it is an effective way for everybody to pay a relatively even share. Your levies included the 'insurance cover' for additional risk associated with riding bikes or any other risky activity.
Being singled out to pay extra levies based on one activity means your share increases because you have a higher risk of injury. It is unlikely that offroad M/C increases your overall risk significantly more than hundreds of other activities in NZ. If offroad M/c attracts more levies then every other activity from climbing ladders to horse riding to running with scissors should also pay for the higher risk. Then all the 'high' risk activities that are levied separately can be removed from the normal levies resulting in big discounts!!

[Shadykiwi]

I wonder if Epic Events pending sale has anything to do with this?

[RJM]

K6K you've definitely raised some points I hadn't considered.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

sweet. as long as every rugby and netball player in the country is licensed too! those cunts probabley make up more acc claims than riders, in frequency and total cost.

[Keithf]

One thing that the ACC likes to do is work with industry groups to work on ways to reduce the cost of injuries in the work place generally through training and education programs. This is good for business and the ACC as it can save both parties money. I am not sure quite how this would work for off road motorcycling in general but it could be as much about training as it is licensing.

So with that in mind that the MNZ and ACC have got together in some fashion is possibly a good thing -that the MNZ appears not to have consulted widely about what they are a about at this stage is a bit of a concern.

Like Tony I am all for a bit of regulation to ensure that events are well managed, marked and marshaled and have a first aid presence. Personally I am not too concerned if the price of a trail ride goes up to $50 because to me that is still pretty cheap entertainment for a days riding.

What does concern me is that and outcome of discussions between the ACC and the MNZ is a system that is unworkable for the people who put on events.

Regarding the question about an increased ACC levy directed at us and the fairness of it -I agree that we all pay for ACC by a number of means but that didn't stop them increasing the rego for big bike riders

[Ktmboy]

sweet. as long as every rugby and netball player in the country is licensed too! those cunts probabley make up more acc claims than riders, in frequency and total cost.

I'm a rugby player as well:yes: Well an aged one and yes we do pay levies and are registered with the NZRFU.

The cost implicatiosns are a worry. How do you manage this especially in remote locations.
Here is a scenario. Johnny buys a bike off trademe and comes out for a ride. Do we turn him away at the gate because he has no license?

[takitimu]

I am still in shock that MNZ are doing this and even more that any other sport is letting them, it's the thin edge of a massive wedge and affects rugby/skiing/golf/boxing etc etc.

Basically I can't believe that because my sport is dirt biking and not rugby that I get charged, that makes no sense to me, especially as I'm a desk jockey and my odds of a work injury are apart from RSI effectively zero and in 5 years ACC have not paid for any injury I've had.

If this has to happen and I think It would be dumb if it did, then it should be like any other ACC workplace where say the sandpit/power/epic get certified and regularly inspected, it's really the fund raising trail rides that will be affected the most and it's so wrong that yet again rural communities are punished by pen pushers in wgtn.

MNZ failed to stop road riders from being gouged by ACC, I see no evidence that as dirt bike riders we'll fare any better and to my first point we are being used as guinea pigs by ACC to get fees from sports and that is against what I consider was the huge benefit of ACC, as such I think it should be opened to competition ( or maybe that is the objective, make it so directly funded that it can be ).

[Ktmboy]

Nigel, its MNZ that are driving this more than ACC and the Dept of labour. MNZ see it as a very very good source of income and I'm sure they could all be nicely recompensed with the proceeds from managing this.

Its making a job for themselves..

Its also a privacy thing.
We have 11,700 riders on our data base and MNZ would have access to all. Its your personal info and we are not at liberty to hand this on to anybody.

[takitimu]

To me it's a logistical nightmare, where the costs of enforcement/management could easily double the ACC costs, so much distance and remoteness involved.

When I first heard of this I could not get my head around how you could police/enforce it at any reasonable rate, I still can't.

So many reasons for MNZ to be wary of this.

I do however like the idea of guidelines worked put in conjunction with ACC & dept of labour for the running of events and I'd even suggest the option of being able to be certified. BUT it should be optional and be a situation where MNZ are adding real value ( Insurance/Promotion etc ), not where they are just clipping a ticket/being rule enforcers.

[young1]

I would only presume then, living in a democratic country as we do, that a similar scheme is being proposed for skiers (swipe their ACC 'card' before getting on the chair lift) or for rugby players etc etc

Or am I just being silly....

[Ktmboy]

To me it's a logistical nightmare, where the costs of enforcement/management could easily double the ACC costs, so much distance and remoteness involved.

When I first heard of this I could not get my head around how you could police/enforce it at any reasonable rate, I still can't.

So many reasons for MNZ to be wary of this.

I do however like the idea of guidelines worked put in conjunction with ACC & dept of labour for the running of events and I'd even suggest the option of being able to be certified. BUT it should be optional and be a situation where MNZ are adding real value ( Insurance/Promotion etc ), not where they are just clipping a ticket/being rule enforcers.

Right on the button. Takitimu for MNZ president.

[dave hamilton]

Well MNZ is like the IRD A PACJ OF HOMOS I SAY PISS ON THEM BOTH FUCK MNZ lucky here in the waikato we got plenty of free ride space hehe so up you MNZ

[MSTRS]

I really enjoy riding without having to worry about licenses, rego fee's, WOF's etc etc.

I'd like that too....
Coming from the 'other side', but still just a recreational user, it's high time that something was done to cover offroad injuries. Let's face it, we all know that in many (most?) cases, treatment costs come from the motor fund and we road riders have been subsidising the offroaders for years.
And before anyone goes all postal on me, I understand how abhorrent it is to think that a previously 'free' activity is likely to get a price put on it. For me, who really only rides as a leisure activity, it was utterly vile to have my rego go up, when I pay ACC on my wages and on my fuel just like you guys do.

[ktm84mxc]

This is what you get with MNZ they have this deluded view that they are doing it for the betterment of the sport, when in fact all we want is to be left alone to ride our bikes as shown by the poor response to the elections.
MNZ can't tell an individual what they can & can't do , they can only do so if it is written in law or by Queens charter
This may see the end of MNZ as we know it.

[BM-GS]

This is what you get with MNZ they have this deluded view that they are doing it for the betterment of the sport, when in fact all we want is to be left alone to ride our bikes as shown by the poor response to the elections.
MNZ can't tell an individual what they can & can't do , they can only do so if it is written in law or by Queens charter
This may see the end of MNZ as we know it.

That's why MNZ, DoL & ACC are all in there together, once it's in legislation, MNZ get to do whatever they can get away with and charge us for it.

I think regulation as regards trail standards is probably a good thing so long as the process for this doesn't increase consts to the point where (more) people start riding illegally. It's hard enough for people to ride on their own property now, it'll get harder once the neighbours get a licence to snoop.

The Law of Unintended Consequences?

[Jay GTI]

I'd read about this in DRD a while back and they were as concerned as we are that this is all going on behind closed doors without consultation with us, the people who will be affected by any legislation.

While I agree that some kind of regulation can only be a good thing, as there should be basic standards met by the organisers of any professional event, my concern is that MNZ are in fact only representing themselves. As said already, they may well be working on legislation that will bouy their coffers, at the expense of us, the people they are supposedly representing. This may not be true, but without any transparency, there is no way of knowing and the 'conspiracy theorist' in me is very concerned we are being excluded because we would not like what is being discussed.

As has also been said, once in legislation, there will be very little we can do, illegal riding will increase, but most of us are law-abiding people and will continue to ride, just MNZ and ACC will be taking their slice.

MNZ have not been proving themselves of late, with the issues with the Pukekohi MCC and the like, this is only increasing my scepticism in their true representation (themselves).

[Ronin]

Right on the button. Takitimu for MNZ president.

The elections for MNZ president finished a couple of weeks ago. Only 10% of the membership voted. The largest portion of members by far is off road.

Just saying is all.

[meteor]

...the closed door approach to this is the worrying part. Where is the consultation with the riders and the operators...

Yeah right... just like they consulted on the road rego's and all our protest rides, meetings, letters, hikois etc made a huge difference didn't it. Here ya go Mr citizen, bend over again!

[krad_nz]

I don't like the idea that a group that I'm not a member of gets to vote on what they think is best for me while I don't even know its happening and therefore get no say.

MNZ are meant to be representing all of us in the eyes of the govt? Like most people here I didn't even know it was going on. Good work MNZ.

Can we separate ourselves from MNZ? Or at least get some KB representation.

[morg_nz]

maybe im missing something but whats wrong with a licence or rego system for all riders? at the moment we are paying for our acc levys through our car regos but we really should be paying as motorbike riders as we would certainally expect to be looked after when we get injured.

i think they should be making everyone have some form of rego or licence. Particuarlly in the case of people like road cyclists. you hear them complaining about how unfair and dangerous cars are and that they are entitled to use the road too (which they are) but the number of them that i see running red lights because they dont want to slow down or affect their training, is just crazy - if they want to use the road they should be accountable to the same set of rules.

i think the same goes for off road activities - 4x4 and mx etc. - hunters need licences and permits to do what they do, why shouldnt we?

and also, as the rules bout the environment and noise get stricter (like they are already getting in aus and the US), those of us who ride responsibility and respect the land we ride on will want to protect our rights from the small minority that have the potential to spoil it for all of us

[K6K]

I'd like that too....
Coming from the 'other side', but still just a recreational user, it's high time that something was done to cover offroad injuries. Let's face it, we all know that in many (most?) cases, treatment costs come from the motor fund and we road riders have been subsidising the offroaders for years.
And before anyone goes all postal on me, I understand how abhorrent it is to think that a previously 'free' activity is likely to get a price put on it. For me, who really only rides as a leisure activity, it was utterly vile to have my rego go up, when I pay ACC on my wages and on my fuel just like you guys do.

No offroad injury will be covered by the motor vehicle account unless it is miss reported or an error on ACC's part. Road riders don't subsidize offroad riders out of their registration costs. However any user of petrol that is not on a public road 'subsidizes' the motor vehicle account users.

Cover for onroad injury comes from the motor vehicle account which is collected from petrol and registration costs. The registration is based on vehicle type paying a portion of the total costs based on statistical representation (motorcycle, diesel vehicle etc). Because I drive a diesel ute I pay more than a car because diesel vehicles proportionally have more injuries in comparison to petrol users.

Cover for offroad injuries, or anything you do outside of work comes from the earners account which is levied from everybody in the paid workforce. This is not a proportional levy. There is no way to levy this based on the amount of situational risk like you can do with registration costs. Everybody can only pay so much in the dollar and shares the risk.

You can't really compare on road bikers paying more ACC levies into the ACC motor vehicle account to offroad bikers paying more into the Earners account. Both are motorized but other than that it is apples and oranges.

[MSTRS]

No offroad injury will be covered by the motor vehicle account unless it is miss reported or an error on ACC's part. Road riders don't subsidize offroad riders out of their registration costs. However any user of petrol that is not on a public road 'subsidizes' the motor vehicle account users.

Cover for onroad injury comes from the motor vehicle account which is collected from petrol and registration costs. The registration is based on vehicle type paying a portion of the total costs based on statistical representation (motorcycle, diesel vehicle etc). Because I drive a diesel ute I pay more than a car because diesel vehicles proportionally have more injuries in comparison to petrol users.

Cover for offroad injuries, or anything you do outside of work comes from the earners account which is levied from everybody in the paid workforce. This is not a proportional levy. There is no way to levy this based on the amount of situational risk like you can do with registration costs. Everybody can only pay so much in the dollar and shares the risk.

You can't really compare on road bikers paying more ACC levies into the ACC motor vehicle account to offroad bikers paying more into the Earners account. Both are motorized but other than that it is apples and oranges.

Keep your hat on. I am well aware of the ins-and-outs of ACC and the various levies/accounts.
I didn't say that offroad injuries should be covered by the motor account...just that often they are. Because the claim form asks if a vehicle was involved.
Since I really only ride my bike recreationally, I shouldn't have to pay road user rego...my earners account should cover me. Right?
As for diesel ... you pay a higher rego because you don't pay on fuel.

[K6K]

Keep your hat on. I am well aware of the ins-and-outs of ACC and the various levies/accounts.
I didn't say that offroad injuries should be covered by the motor account...just that often they are. Because the claim form asks if a vehicle was involved.
Since I really only ride my bike recreationally, I shouldn't have to pay road user rego...my earners account should cover me. Right?
As for diesel ... you pay a higher rego because you don't pay on fuel.



The claim form does not just ask if a vehicle was involved. It says "did the accident involve a moving vehicle on a public road/driveway or beach?". I'm sure this is answered in error sometimes but "many (most?)" cases? unlikely.

why would you expect to not have to pay the road user ACC levy on your road bike because you are a 'recreational' user? You have not 'paid' your levy already in the earners levy as it does not cover any motor vehicle usage on a public road, recreational or not. I didn't agree with the figures that the government trotted out to justify the increase in ACC levy for road bikers as they were obviously creative statistics but in principle a levy based on vehicle class/risk is sound IMO.

The diesel question, good point I miss understood that one...I just saw the higher ACC costs and thought in error that ACC levies where collected in RUC (which I just read that ACC is now proposing to do!).

[ktm84mxc]

Letz have a look at how MNZ cud inforce there ideas , registering every offroad bike/quad or rider? How cud it be done & let alone the enforcement costs this wud incur yearly.
It wud be similar to Fed farmers trying to police every farm bike/quad/tractor, or Bikenz every bicycle & rider. Yeah Right.
Can't see it happening soon the logistics would be a nightmare eg Find every bike sold in NZ or every rider. MNZ cud only police there events & if any of them came a knocking on my door/ride they wud be told were to GO.

[Woodman]

So considering the ACC portion of all fuel used by non registered vehicles e.g. bikes, boats,quads etc.
Does that cover the costs of the injuries? or is it too hard to work out how much fuel is going into these vehicles to get an accurate figure?

[tigertim20]

sounds like they want it all their way.

As a road rider, I feel a tad pissed that my levies probably cover the acccident and injury costs of non paying off roaders.
In the past I rode dirt too, but now that im actually paying.

Id feel better about it, if they brought this system in INSTEAD of increased acc levies, but that was never going to happen was it?

As for the question of people on road legal bikes that have already paid levies etc turning up to events, surely an existing road licence would be considered a fair substitute... right...?...:shutup::facepalm:

[Katoomer]

So ACC are looking to target us through MNZ. Where does the New Zealand Dirt Bike Federation stand in their eyes?
Quite a few events including GNCCs, Tarawera 100 and SummerCross are non MNZ events .

It was because of MNZ's costs and red tape that the NZDB Fed started in the first place.
If MNZ aren't prepared to let us in on the proposal then they should expect some more clubs jumping ship.

[ktm84mxc]

Yep to hard to work out were the fuel wud go 2, it wud mean the petrol stations accounting for the intended use off every litre sold eg for a boat, lawn mower, chainsaw, bike/quad, off road buggy/car/truck etc.....
The list cud be endless.
Most off my riding mates put down a handy man injury wen filling out an ACC form for a bike injury, that way your always covered.

[Kickaha]

Has anyone bothered to ask MNZ about it?

[ktm84mxc]

As a life member of NZDBF we've had this fight with MNZ before over their perceived views on this subject. They do not HAVE the right or Power to tell/inforce an individual what the can or can't do with regards to motorcycling.
They are just an elected body representing their members. Full Stop.
Will be talking to John Cobb tomorrow & gauging his comments.
On a foot note IF enough members don't renew with MNZ then itz BYE BYE MNZ.
NZDBF has the view itz member clubs know watz best for them, we collect no fee's & don't dictate to the clubs.
I await your feed back.

[morg_nz]

i think there seems to be a lack of clarification on the points being made here...

from what i can ascertain though people seem to be unhappy with being told what to do - by the likes of MNZ or whoever - when they themselves are not necessarily affiliated with such groups.

i would like to redirect readers of this forum to actually consider what the issue is here.

What is the purpose of any licence/rego system?

in my opinion it is to provide some regulation of the activities that licenced/registered users undertake and/or to provide some way of accounting for things such as acc levies.

personally i think we as dirt bike riders DO pose a significant liability to public health services (we participate in a high risk sport - we WILL all be hurt at some stage) so i think it is only fair to contribute towards the cost of that.

also, like i mentioned it WILL become more difficult to find a place to ride off road due to increasing environmental and noise regualtions. this will mean that organised events (such as epic events or any other trail ride or mx track) will be increasingly more valuable to us as riders. If being licenced or registered enables such facilities to continue to be viable then im all for it. i suspect without licencing or registration, the cost of insurances and compliance for organised events will be prohibitive for organisers and they will eventually dissapear.

so really people need to consider what they want - do you want to be able to ride your bike where an when you want? if so you might need to think about how that will be achieved in the future?

[Jay GTI]

Has anyone bothered to ask MNZ about it?

Yes. Your point?

[Jay GTI]

i think there seems to be a lack of clarification on the points being made here...

from what i can ascertain though people seem to be unhappy with being told what to do - by the likes of MNZ or whoever - when they themselves are not necessarily affiliated with such groups.

i would like to redirect readers of this forum to actually consider what the issue is here.

What is the purpose of any licence/rego system?

in my opinion it is to provide some regulation of the activities that licenced/registered users undertake and/or to provide some way of accounting for things such as acc levies.

personally i think we as dirt bike riders DO pose a significant liability to public health services (we participate in a high risk sport - we WILL all be hurt at some stage) so i think it is only fair to contribute towards the cost of that.

also, like i mentioned it WILL become more difficult to find a place to ride off road due to increasing environmental and noise regualtions. this will mean that organised events (such as epic events or any other trail ride or mx track) will be increasingly more valuable to us as riders. If being licenced or registered enables such facilities to continue to be viable then im all for it. i suspect without licencing or registration, the cost of insurances and compliance for organised events will be prohibitive for organisers and they will eventually dissapear.

so really people need to consider what they want - do you want to be able to ride your bike where an when you want? if so you might need to think about how that will be achieved in the future?

It's not the issue of licensing that is the problem, but the fact that discussions between ACC and MNZ are being held behind closed doors with no consultation with the public. Anyone who has registered a roadbike recently will quite fairly view any planned changes in ACC regulations with scepticsm, so with MNZ not being open about the discussions, how do we know they are representing their members and wider offroad riding community fairly?

[noobi]

I would be interested to see stats which support "dirt bike riders require more acc monies per person compared to x y z" Im sure a larger proportion of rugby/netball/football players compete week to week, and whether they require a significantly less amount of money would surely be something they (acc, DoL) would need to prove before penalising a minority for a purely leisure activity.
Or will they just do whatever they merry well want, and screw everyone probably this one

[Kickaha]

Yes. Your point?

That there seem to be a lot of people whinging when they don't seem to have even bothered contacting the organisation concerned and the OP even says some of his information may be hearsay

So if you contacted them what was the result of the inquiry?

edit: I haven't ever been on a trailride that had any MNZ involvement, do they have some with NI trail rides?

[Factoryjohn]

I see soapboxes must have been half price at the Parakai Superette this week Tony.:yes:

There is an interesting article in this months KiwiRider where MNZ's Paul Searnacke explains what he wants to achieve regarding "Recreational Off-Road Riding", doesn't seem too scary to me.

[Katoomer]

[QUOTE=ktm84mxc;1130079119]As a life member of NZDBF we've had this fight with MNZ before over their perceived views on this subject. They do not HAVE the right or Power to tell/inforce an individual what the can or can't do with regards to motorcycling.
They are just an elected body representing their members. Full Stop.
Will be talking to John Cobb tomorrow & gauging his comments.
On a foot note IF enough members don't renew with MNZ then itz BYE BYE MNZ.
NZDBF has the view itz member clubs know watz best for them, we collect no fee's & don't dictate to the clubs.
I await your feed back.

NZDBF gets my vote.
MNZ are just spread too thin between the different forms of motorcycling.

ACC are targeting those they think they can touch.
I'm a mtbiker too and have cost ACC plenty with my accidents of late but they don't have any way of getting me back for those mishaps,just like rugby etc.
So they're looking at taxing accidents but not all accidents are taxable so they will go for the easiest first.
Are we easy?

[barty5]

Anywhere you pay to ride. In Aussie as I understand its anywhere you ride regardless of if you paid or not.

Guess trails will have to be advertised as free with donations recommended and you make a large sign at the gate donations welcome recommended donation $30- 35 per rider. there fore you are not charging people to ride they are just making a donation.

[dave hamilton]

yip i like the sound of bartys idea works for me if it means i can still go riding at a trial ride with my girl :)

[Jay GTI]

So if you contacted them what was the result of the inquiry?



Nothing, but then I would expect that response, due to be not being a member and it being a matter they aren't even sharing with considerably more important people than me in the industry/scene.

[morg_nz]

yip i like the sound of bartys idea works for me if it means i can still go riding at a trial ride with my girl :)

what is the purpose of avoiding paying a contribution to a licencing/rego scheme? you are still willing to 'donate' on the sly - why would you avoid it? who should pick up the bill for looking after your injuries and administration of the regulations that allow you to ride places?

how would everyone feel if suddenly people started to get (even more so than they are already) precious about noise and started demanding resource consents for rides? i can assure you that is something that you would not want to fork out for.

personally i would prefer to contribute to an industry body who can set rules for me to abide by that suit the majority (like muffler noise limits etc)

[morg_nz]

and im pretty sure anyone here could join mnz and voice their opinions if they felt sufficienttly misrepresented?

[Ktmboy]

I see soapboxes must have been half price at the Parakai Superette this week Tony.:yes:

There is an interesting article in this months KiwiRider where MNZ's Paul Searnacke explains what he wants to achieve regarding "Recreational Off-Road Riding", doesn't seem too scary to me.

I'll ignore the flipent remark as obviously judging by the amount of posts on the subject a lot of folks have differing opinions. Thats why its a forum John and not just a place to promote your events.

I posted this before I recieved my KR mag this morning.
There are a few things that they are not telling you in that staged interview that we are aware of that could be a conflict of interest.
If you had read my post correctly you would see that yes, the trail ride scene does need a make over.
Its the manor in which it is being done.

Was Waitemata MCC consulted when some of WMCC e.g. Tiebbe, have years of experience running events.? I doubt it. Why not. Its because they want to keep it quiet.

[dave hamilton]

pooh no wouldnt waste my time filling in a mnz application so they can go ra ra let those who who want to stay mnz stay and let those who dont join nzdbf seems like its the only way to go esp if it means people can run a good trailride or event my vote would be nzdbf at this point in time have dealt with mnz for speedway and they are money hungry just like snz all want the money but dont do fuck all for the members

[theblacksmith]

The world has gone mad. As for the twats that are running the show -well there s no hope. Im quickly realising that we as the public need to step up a bit and oppose all this shoite beauracracy. Police state crap!!

[takitimu]

what is the purpose of avoiding paying a contribution to a licencing/rego scheme? you are still willing to 'donate' on the sly - why would you avoid it? who should pick up the bill for looking after your injuries and administration of the regulations that allow you to ride places?

how would everyone feel if suddenly people started to get (even more so than they are already) precious about noise and started demanding resource consents for rides? i can assure you that is something that you would not want to fork out for.

personally i would prefer to contribute to an industry body who can set rules for me to abide by that suit the majority (like muffler noise limits etc)

Why should dirt bike riders pay their ACC any different to mountain bikers, horse riders, skiers etc. Thats the issue with direct levies along with a situation where enforcement costs could easily be more than the revenue. Sometimes a general levy makes sense and I think a large number of recreational and sporting activities fall into that category.

In terms of a body setting rules/guidelines not just a good idea, but required, though there are two concepts there and mixing them, like MNZ is doing, is pretty dodgy I believe.

Regarding noise, I could be wrong but I didn't see MNZ helping Ardmore out in that regard, it's already a huge issue and whilst a central body might work for race tracks, dirt bike tracks are everywhere, so that single central entity just isn't enough, it requires manufacturer rules and education in conjunction with MNZ.

[Woodman]

The world has gone mad. As for the twats that are running the show -well there s no hope. Im quickly realising that we as the public need to step up a bit and oppose all this shoite beauracracy. Police state crap!!

You are correct, this sorta thing is breeding a whole country full of people that will no longer be able to think for themselves or do anything without asking permission first.

[ktm84mxc]

Right with you Takitimu I regulary compete at MNZ events & have never seen or been tested for noise , It is a requirement of ardmore resource consent the noise tests be carried out & I am seconded in to doing this.
NZDBF opened the door allowing the likes of Greg Power, Nick Reader, Ken Fell, John Britton, Joe Forsythe to operate, MNZ are only trying to close that door & gain control with the resulting revenue it will bring.

[jimbo600]

MNZ bureaucrats fucking up motorsports for all NZ. Ask the BoP guys about them. I've turned up to a few events only to be told to pay day rates that would embarrass dick turpin for an enduro day ride.

Free ride and expression sessions are where its at. Surfers got on to it years ago.

[roy.nz]

Seriously dont the ACC collect enough money from every single transaction we make. Well its gonna be illegal riding for lots of people. So if you dont scan in then ride, fall and get injured, will the ACC go and check if you scanned in, if not they wont pay for your treatment??:shit::facepalm::angry:

We are all doomed by the ACC

[meteor]

...i think they should be making everyone have some form of rego or licence. Particuarlly in the case of people like road cyclists. you hear them complaining...

Not so sure I agree. By this reasoning it would mean all activities need licensing. So to take the extreme view, if I was walking and fell over and went through ACC for medical cover then [arguably] it would be fair for me to be paying for a licence to walk, so therefore anyone walking in NZ should have a licence to walk... and from what I'm reading all riders will need a licence, so any budding 18 month old child thinking about walking should be forced to go get a licence... Yeah that's a real feed on money grabbing arse right there!

[Jay GTI]

The world has gone mad. As for the twats that are running the show -well there s no hope. Im quickly realising that we as the public need to step up a bit and oppose all this shoite beauracracy. Police state crap!!


You are correct, this sorta thing is breeding a whole country full of people that will no longer be able to think for themselves or do anything without asking permission first.

Yes this is a serious issue and it will go through because of the levels of apathy of the general public in NZ. I'd be the first to admit I am as guilty as anyone on this, but yes it is about time we stood up as a collective and did something. Too much is allowed to get through simply because no-one goes any further than an internet whinge.

I have no idea what to do about this, but I hope that we can, as a large group of passionate off roaders, actually get off our arses and do something about this.

[MSTRS]

The claim form does not just ask if a vehicle was involved. It says "did the accident involve a moving vehicle on a public road/driveway or beach?". I'm sure this is answered in error sometimes but "many (most?)" cases? unlikely.

Makes no difference - if a vehicle was involved. The legal definition of a 'road' is anywhere the public has access to whether by right or not. Unless it's an enclosed area that can only be accessed via a locked gate. 'Locked gate' also covers the likes of a race track or paid entry event. Take your unregistered vehicle on a beach or riverbank (for example) and you are guilty of operating an unlicenced vehicle on a public road.



why would you expect to not have to pay the road user ACC levy on your road bike because you are a 'recreational' user? You have not 'paid' your levy already in the earners levy as it does not cover any motor vehicle usage on a public road, recreational or not.
I wouldn't. I merely make the point that dirtbikers don't pay because they are recreational users - and so am I.



Most off my riding mates put down a handy man injury wen filling out an ACC form for a bike injury, that way your always covered.
People wouldn't lie about such things just to ensure cover. Would they?


Too much is allowed to get through simply because no-one goes any further than an internet whinge.

Quite so. But did you miss the fact that what is being discussed here is something that is happening behind closed doors, with no chance of consultation. Something that is becoming increasingly common to avoid the inconvenience of detractors having a chance to stop someone/s agenda/s.

[Jay GTI]

Quite so. But did you miss the fact that what is being discussed here is something that is happening behind closed doors, with no chance of consultation. Something that is becoming increasingly common to avoid the inconvenience of detractors having a chance to stop someone/s agenda/s.

Nope, well aware of that, which is why I have no idea how we can do anything about it. It would be nice to think people would boycott MNZ events and local MCCs would remove their support for them, if people's suspicions are founded, but I can't really see that happening.

[ktm84mxc]

Have spoken to John Cobb at our Club day, yep itz a MNZ rouse to bring the trail biking fraternity into the MNZ fold, this wud explain there views on Helmet age & chest protectors with a back coverage at there recent events I've attended.
The NZDBF welcomes all clubs/groups no questions asked, we even have a Motard club who joined us.
Best for the trailbiking fraternity to write/email ACC saying MNZ does not represent them, it is election year & the nat gov is slashing the public service.

[ktm84mxc]

The whole point off ACC is that it is a NO FAULT coverage eg an inmate who broke his leg trying to escape prison got a lump sum payment for pain & suffering. Tourists are also covered , non residents will be treated & the costs retrieved latter eg you won't be left outside to die because u don't have private coverage.
The ACC coverage is the envy of many country's.
We all pay as a wage earner a portion of your tax goes to ACC funds.

[dave hamilton]

bloody mnz trying to make more cash by talking shit to acc i say boycott mnz they will soon get the message im sure theres away to bum them out of a job and have people with common sense take there place and nake a new organisation im sure some kb people could do it if they wanted to just my thought
oh piss on mnz:scooter:

[krad_nz]

Can the groups who organise trail rides/races still put on the event without MNZ's involvment? Ie: Get support via NZDBF?

Actually, why do we need the involvement of any official organisation other than those wanting to put on the event, and the land owners permission? (for trail rides anyway).

This is part I don't understand. Does it have to be officially sanctioned by some regulatory organisation for some reason? What is that reason? What are the alternative organisations? Is MNZ the only option?

Can anyone form such an organisation? If so, lets create our own one.

[Kickaha]

This is part I don't understand. Does it have to be officially sanctioned by some regulatory organisation for some reason? What is that reason? What are the alternative organisations? Is MNZ the only option?



I don't understand it either, I haven't ever been on a trail ride where MNZ had any involvement (haven't been on any for a couple of years now though)

[scott411]

The whole point off ACC is that it is a NO FAULT coverage eg an inmate who broke his leg trying to escape prison got a lump sum payment for pain & suffering. Tourists are also covered , non residents will be treated & the costs retrieved latter eg you won't be left outside to die because u don't have private coverage.
The ACC coverage is the envy of many country's.
We all pay as a wage earner a portion of your tax goes to ACC funds.

MNZ have had trail rides in their fold for a long time, our Mr Motorcycles rides have always been run under MNZ permits, however they wanted to put a rider levy in there which would have made us leave, however this has been dropped now due to much pressure from the clubs,

for this liceince to be put forward by MNZ and talked about with ACC is one of the worst abuses of power i have ever seen, the fact that bicycles which casue more injuries than off road bikes do not need to have one is the biggest push,

at least us dirtbikers pay the acc levy on the fuel we use

[rok-the-boat]

IF they pull this off they'll get boats, and then, people - the air your breathe and the water you drink.

[rok-the-boat]

The reason for all this is that the government is spending more than it takes in - millions extra everyday. I say it's time to tackle the problem at source. They need to get their fiscal house in order. Pronto. This cannot continue indefinitely and they have no get-out plan. They need to balance the books and stop bailing out their mates.

[Blagger]

Vote with your feet - simply boycott all MNZ affiliated rides.

If they succeed more people will ride illegally which is not a good look for the bulk of us who try to ride without pissing off landowners.

There is one opinion poll that the government takes heed of and it rolls around every four years..

[Woodman]

How do the hospitals charge ACC? Do they charge out at market rates? e.g. with a markup added for drugs, bandages, doctors time etc, or do they charge ACC at cost price? considering all the money comes from the same purse.
Just something I have always wondered is all.

But yeah it won't be long before we will need a permit to go for a walk around the streets. There are already way too many people here in Nelson that wear hivis vests when going for a stroll in broad daylight.:shit:

[rok-the-boat]

Do you know - in America - the so called land of the free, that in several States, you are not allowed to collect rain water off of your roof. It doesn't belong to you. The rain belongs to the private water company. And before you say it can't happen here, and that you would be up in arms if it did, just watch yourself let stuff like this happen. We are modern serfs.

[Jay GTI]

Vote with your feet - simply boycott all MNZ affiliated rides.



The problem with this plan is that if this is heading where I suspect it is with MNZ and ACC, we may well see legislation that means MNZ will have to be involved in any organised trail ride and trail park held in NZ.

Please can I ask anyone concerned about this to write an e-mail to both ACC and MNZ, expressing your concern about what you consider to be a gross and underhand misrepresentation of the NZ dirt biking community. I will also write to my local MP.

e-mail addresses:

complaints@acc.co.nz

presidentmnz@ihug.co.nz

[dave hamilton]

I agree with Krad why not start up arera electives and make it a inc where its a tax benefit for the society plus each area has a rep and we can take on mnz but i guess you would need people to have the balls to tell mnz to piss off and not be shy top run a good safe event i think we can upset the apple cart if we do a club like dbfnz but we can be a DB alliance inc society well thats my thought this way we get all areas coverd and hold the agm and this also gives kb riders a chance to meet and voice opinions i have a mate who is a lawyer and he can set up a society in 5mins given we can arrange such a thing :scooter:

[random rider]

Please can I ask anyone concerned about this to write an e-mail to both ACC and MNZ, expressing your concern about what you consider to be a gross and underhand misrepresentation of the NZ dirt biking community. I will also write to my local MP.

e-mail addresses:

complaints@acc.co.nz

presidentmnz@ihug.co.nz

I have done it! I am normally the one that wants to get involved but leaves it to others. I have however taken the 5 min to type up and email to both of those addresses and sent it off.

I only attend events that I know are run well and safely. Tony - your events rock...Scott yours too :yes: And this is also why you have high attendances.

I don't have an issue if they set up minimum standards for rides. I would happily join a sub club of NZDB and would support them in registering each year and I don't mind if I had to pay an extra $5- $10 per ride/rider for ACC if that means that they leave us alone..... it would also mean that people that only ride 1-2 events a year don't have to register....but would like then to see that the levy be waived at rides if I was a paid up member.

I don't want to see people leave the sport as it is too hard bureaucracy wise.

My concern is that this is just the start of being a nanny state that is penny pinching to pay for that bureacracy.

I hope others do become involved and please keep us up to date with anything so that we can as a group do something.

[Jay GTI]

I have done it! I am normally the one that wants to get involved but leaves it to others. I have however taken the 5 min to type up and email to both of those addresses and sent it off.

I only attend events that I know are run well and safely. Tony - your events rock...Scott yours too :yes: And this is also why you have high attendances.

I don't have an issue if they set up minimum standards for rides. I would happily join a sub club of NZDB and would support them in registering each year and I don't mind if I had to pay an extra $5- $10 per ride/rider for ACC if that means that they leave us alone..... it would also mean that people that only ride 1-2 events a year don't have to register....but would like then to see that the levy be waived at rides if I was a paid up member.

I don't want to see people leave the sport as it is too hard bureaucracy wise.

My concern is that this is just the start of being a nanny state that is penny pinching to pay for that bureacracy.

I hope others do become involved and please keep us up to date with anything so that we can as a group do something.

Good man!!!

I too am all for minimum standards on organised trail rides and trail parks, I have been on a couple of rides where the trail marking has been well below what I would consider safe (no warning of very tricky sections). However, that should not be something MNZ assumes responsibility for without talking to the people who go to these rides.

Naturally I have a mistrust of ACC, after what have done to road riders, but I'm not convinced this is entirely their idea. As has been said already, MNZ are struggling financially, what better way of ensuring lots of cash flowing into their coffers? Get some kind of legislation that means we have to pay them a levy for every single trail ride in the country. How do you do that?

"Hello, is that ACC? It's MNZ here, do you know how people are injured in all these badly run cowboy trail rides that happen up and down the country? You need a governing body to make sure they are all run safely, it would save you money, it's in your interest. You'd need to make it a legal requirement though and I know just the organisation that could help, blah blah...".

C'mon, just a few more emails, doesn't have to be much, just a simple few lines stating your concerns. I have done this before on a completely unrelated matter and it only takes a few people to e-mail these organisations to make them take notice.

[random rider]

Good man!!!



HAHAHAHA ..... good chick! :facepalm: No worries though

I have done less damage (ACC wise) to myself with trail riding than the years of BMX and Netball.

Please others do write and maybe someone might listen. Better to be vocal than complain in silence!

Does anyone from NZDB know what options we as a collective can do?

[Jay GTI]

HAHAHAHA ..... good chick! :facepalm: No worries though

I have done less damage (ACC wise) to myself with trail riding than the years of BMX and Netball.

Please others do write and maybe someone might listen. Better to be vocal than complain in silence!

Does anyone from NZDB know what options we as a collective can do?


OOOOOPS...:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Many, many apologies....

But thank you for your efforts, good chick :whistle:

[CRF119]

If this is all about ACC everybody should just stop paying anything with ACC levies because for what i pay in ACC levies and ive never been on ACC in my life i could have health insurance for a lot less.

Motor cross riders do injure themselves a lot a good friend of mine is a nurse. A lot of injuries come from places that wouldn't be using this card mates farms etc.

If we don't pay what can they do i used to register my CBR900RR and it wouldn't leave the garage with out it, but now its cheaper to get caught with no reg once a year and pay the fine then pay for Reg. (Still has WOF)

[random rider]

If this is all about ACC everybody should just stop paying anything with ACC levies because for what i pay in ACC levies and ive never been on ACC in my life i could have health insurance for a lot less.



Main issue for me is that no consultation of the organisers of some of the best rides is not being done. It isn't about the ACC. I personally love ACC as it is nice to have it there when you need it. I have even acknowledged that I would pay a rego or small (not over the top or we will lose our casual/family riders) fee at rides.

I just don't want to find that we are having to pay for a group that does not fairly represent or understand us. We vote by turning up to safe rides. If that was all it was about fair enough but it isn't.

I just don't want to be told when/where/how I can ride. I ride to relax and catch up with friends. If it gets over complicated people will drop out....charity farm rides will be a thing of the past and events will not be run. :bye:

It is bigger than ACC .... for most of us at least - sorry rant over :shit:

[White trash]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to be a complete cunt (what's new) and ask where is the problem from organised trail rides having a portion of the fee go towards an ACC levy?

Do people not injure themsleves and require treatment on trail rides or something?

You can cry "boycot MNZ events" all you like, but MNZ are not driving this, they're the target. ACC will come looking for levies off EVERY trail ride, MNZ affiliated or not soon enough. That's a fact.

[morg_nz]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to be a complete cunt (what's new) and ask where is the problem from organised trail rides having a portion of the fee go towards an ACC levy?

Do people not injure themsleves and require treatment on trail rides or something?

You can cry "boycot MNZ events" all you like, but MNZ are not driving this, they're the target. ACC will come looking for levies off EVERY trail ride, MNZ affiliated or not soon enough. That's a fact.

see my posts above, i completly agree mate

[Paul Searancke]

I see soapboxes must have been half price at the Parakai Superette this week Tony.:yes:

There is an interesting article in this months KiwiRider where MNZ's Paul Searnacke explains what he wants to achieve regarding "Recreational Off-Road Riding", doesn't seem too scary to me.

I would encourage posters to this thread to read this KiwiRider article before reaching any conclusions.
MNZ has not been in any discussions with ACC about Trail Ride activities since 2009 other than to advise of the reduction in injuries at MNZ events due to proactive work by MNZ and member clubs.
MNZ have submitted to the Department of Labour on the "REVIEW OF RISK MANAGEMENT AND SAFETY IN THE ADVENTURE AND OUTDOOR COMMERCIAL SECTORS IN NEW ZEALAND 2009/10" in an effort to ensure that voluntary organisations such as MNZ Clubs were excluded from any changed regulations. See this link for the latest update on this; http://www.dol.govt.nz/news/adventure-implementation-may2011.asp
For those who are MNZ club members, ask your club about the presentation given at this years MNZ AGM on Trail Rides as this should at least be accurate "hearsay". As for consulting clubs such as Waitemata on Trail Rides, Waitemata and many others have been and are still involved on moves to improve MNZ Trail Rides.

Paul Searancke
Recreation/Leisure Commissioner
MNZ

[Kickaha]

Paul Searancke
Recreation/Leisure Commissioner
MNZ

How dare you come in here to set the record straight instead of using rumour and hearsay like everyone else

[budda]

Right with you Takitimu I regulary compete at MNZ events & have never seen or been tested for noise , .

So you'd be very well aware that MNZ supplied EVERY MEMBER CLUB an approved noise meter, WITH instructions on how to use it, in an effort to cap the problem before it got worse ? and you'd be just as well aware that the reason you've never been noise tested is that most Clubs have either low numbers of helpers at meetings, therefore not enought to DO the testing, or simply dont give a shit ?

[Ktmboy]

MNZ have submitted to the Department of Labour on the "REVIEW OF RISK MANAGEMENT AND SAFETY IN THE ADVENTURE AND OUTDOOR COMMERCIAL SECTORS IN NEW ZEALAND 2009/10" in an effort to ensure that voluntary organisations such as MNZ Clubs were excluded from any changed regulations. See this link for the latest update on this; http://www.dol.govt.nz/news/adventure-implementation-may2011.asp
For those who are MNZ club members, ask your club about the presentation given at this years MNZ AGM on Trail Rides as this should at least be accurate "hearsay". As for consulting clubs such as Waitemata on Trail Rides, Waitemata and many others have been and are still involved on moves to improve MNZ Trail Rides.

Paul Searancke
Recreation/Leisure CommissionerMNZ[/QUOTE]

OH dear..., sorry but its the Dept of Labour as well as ACC. But its the same thing. It affects all trail bike users!! Here is your quote.

Unless you are a MNZ member then you are in the dark. And to quote in an effort to ensure [B]that voluntary organisations such as MNZ Clubs were excluded from any changed regulations

So what you are saying is that if we are not MNZ then we have to go through changes but if we are affliated with MNZ then all is sweet...

See thats the point. There are only a few of thou MNZ members. Not every trail bike rider in NZ is a member of MNZ!!
We have 3 x amount of riders on our data base alone, twice as good a safety record of MNZ (0.0025%)and yet no dialogue, no consultation, no stake holder involvement from day one!! and we are only one full time commercial operator.
If it wasn't for the likes the commercial operators there would be no Suzuki Berm Buster, Leart 4 Hours, Honda 6 Hrs, Desert Storms, Woodhill 2 Mans, Sandpit Motorbike Park, Kimmy's, Power Adventures, plus all the trail rides we all put on.
Talking of which what effect will any changes have on the wider community. Motorcycle distributors, Importers etc. Have you had dialogue with them?

To be open and transparent we need as a community some communication, this would be appreciated.
Paul, I have asked you for updates and involvement over the last 6 months and these have never been forth coming.
In fact you have ignored our requests.

Am I wrong to ask question?

[takitimu]

I would encourage posters to this thread to read this KiwiRider article before reaching any conclusions.
MNZ has not been in any discussions with ACC about Trail Ride activities since 2009 other than to advise of the reduction in injuries at MNZ events due to proactive work by MNZ and member clubs.
MNZ have submitted to the Department of Labour on the "REVIEW OF RISK MANAGEMENT AND SAFETY IN THE ADVENTURE AND OUTDOOR COMMERCIAL SECTORS IN NEW ZEALAND 2009/10" in an effort to ensure that voluntary organisations such as MNZ Clubs were excluded from any changed regulations. See this link for the latest update on this; http://www.dol.govt.nz/news/adventure-implementation-may2011.asp
For those who are MNZ club members, ask your club about the presentation given at this years MNZ AGM on Trail Rides as this should at least be accurate "hearsay". As for consulting clubs such as Waitemata on Trail Rides, Waitemata and many others have been and are still involved on moves to improve MNZ Trail Rides.

Paul Searancke
Recreation/Leisure Commissioner
MNZ


MNZ have had trail rides in their fold for a long time, our Mr Motorcycles rides have always been run under MNZ permits, however they wanted to put a rider levy in there which would have made us leave, however this has been dropped now due to much pressure from the clubs,

for this liceince to be put forward by MNZ and talked about with ACC is one of the worst abuses of power i have ever seen, the fact that bicycles which casue more injuries than off road bikes do not need to have one is the biggest push,

at least us dirtbikers pay the acc levy on the fuel we use

Thanks Paul for commenting, though I have to say I am confused, I've never met you, but I know Scotty & I know Tony ( ktmboy ).

They are both saying there is a proposal for a rider license which would involve ACC, yet you are saying this is not the case.

Fundamentally I think if MNZ want to do something with their member clubs or create advisories etc, then doing such a thing in it's process is obviously fine.

But if it's something that impacts every recreational/sporting Off Road Rider in NZ, I believe that process needs to be very open, otherwise even good intentions are susceptible to mis-interpretation.

I believe it'd be a good start for the KiwiRider article to be published on the net, but further to that something as significant as this really needs regular public updates with the opportunity for people to comment, in order that

A) People don't feel ambushed.
B) Vested interests can make their feelings known.
C) Other potentially impacted organisations can comment ( A DirtBike license involving ACC has implications for other codes ).
D) There are not unintended consequences. No-one thinks of everything & the more input the less potential likely issues have not been considered.

[ktm84mxc]

Yes Budda I'm well aware of the equipment sent to MNZ clubs we use the same gear & also have ours recalibrated every 6mths.
Here's an idea at all Trail Rides collect a petition at sign on allowing the organisers to contact/adjudicate on the riders behalf in regards to ACC/DoL matters.
Can any 1 tell me why bike scrutineering went out off practice at events?

[Jay GTI]

I would encourage posters to this thread to read this KiwiRider article before reaching any conclusions.
MNZ has not been in any discussions with ACC about Trail Ride activities since 2009 other than to advise of the reduction in injuries at MNZ events due to proactive work by MNZ and member clubs.MNZ have submitted to the Department of Labour on the "REVIEW OF RISK MANAGEMENT AND SAFETY IN THE ADVENTURE AND OUTDOOR COMMERCIAL SECTORS IN NEW ZEALAND 2009/10" in an effort to ensure that voluntary organisations such as MNZ Clubs were excluded from any changed regulations. See this link for the latest update on this; http://www.dol.govt.nz/news/adventure-implementation-may2011.asp
For those who are MNZ club members, ask your club about the presentation given at this years MNZ AGM on Trail Rides as this should at least be accurate "hearsay". As for consulting clubs such as Waitemata on Trail Rides, Waitemata and many others have been and are still involved on moves to improve MNZ Trail Rides.

Paul Searancke
Recreation/Leisure Commissioner
MNZ

So you have in fact been communicating with ACC about the risk management benefits of MNZ involvment in trail rides. In what capacity was this advice given and what was the purpose of this engagement with ACC? What outcome were both MNZ and ACC seeking in gathering this information?

And for the record I am not against an ACC levy, or a set of national standards for commercial trail rides and trail parks, what I am concerned about is the fact that if these discussions are taking place, then the significant majority of the fee-paying trail riders, as well as commercial trail operators in NZ are being kept in the dark about it. Why?

[scott411]

Yes Budda I'm well aware of the equipment sent to MNZ clubs we use the same gear & also have ours recalibrated every 6mths.
Here's an idea at all Trail Rides collect a petition at sign on allowing the organisers to contact/adjudicate on the riders behalf in regards to ACC/DoL matters.
Can any 1 tell me why bike scrutineering went out off practice at events?

one of the reason's was that you were accepting the bike was safe, and it was said that you may be held responsibile if a bike malfunction casused an injury, there was debate at the time if this was true,

and i would hardly start holding Ardmore as the bastion of saftey and well run events,

John's and others work to keep the place open is awesome, and to say no other clubs have been sound testing is bullshit, the fact you keep you bikes good and have not been tested, nor races an NZ MX event where everybike had to be checked before racing is done,

Pukekohe has told noisy bikes to go home, or repack there mufflers,

I think this issue has been blown up due to the unreported nature of it, and it is not that new, some people have been working on it for a while, Tony is right, MNZ do not speak for the entire off road recreation community, but it is up to the others to do that as well,

[Katman]

I remember a number of years ago the bike shop I worked at had a tent set up at the Desert Storm event to do minor repairs.

The number of bikes that were wheeled into the tent, even before the event got underway, with shot wheel bearings or non-existent brake pads was appalling.

I shudder to think, if we had not been there available to do the repairs, what state many of the bikes would have been riding around in.

[Ixion]

Just a wee thought from an outsider.

What would an "off road licence" do as far as kids are concerned? Lots of children (well, under 16s) ride off road. It's often (AFAIK) a sort of family affair.

Can't see bureaucrats taking the idea of a licence to ride a motor vehicle and NOT putting age restrictions on it. And I'd bet they'd not not be low.

In fact, a very logical development would be simply to tie the off road licence to the road licence.

Dunno anything about the ins and outs of the off road scene, but I do have some experience of the sneaky slimy ways of bureaucrats. And the even sneakier and slimier ways of ACC.

[SpikedPunch]

Just a wee thought from an outsider.

What would an "off road licence" do as far as kids are concerned? Lots of children (well, under 16s) ride off road. It's often (AFAIK) a sort of family affair.

Can't see bureaucrats taking the idea of a licence to ride a motor vehicle and NOT putting age restrictions on it. And I'd bet they'd not not be low.

In fact, a very logical development would be simply to tie the off road licence to the road licence.

Dunno anything about the ins and outs of the off road scene, but I do have some experience of the sneaky slimy ways of bureaucrats. And the even sneakier and slimier ways of ACC.

Yup, that's a something me and krad were chatting about. If there was an age restriction (hopefully this is one of those 'it'd never happen' scenarios...) it would kill NZs chances internationally...All those top guys, like Birchy seem to start riding when they're 3 or 4. Can you imagine if no-one could ride until they were 15...:facepalm: Everyone would be registering their kid's mx bikes as farm bikes and the shops would have to sell their minis as novelty items.

[White trash]

.
Can any 1 tell me why bike scrutineering went out off practice at events?

My theory is that if a bike is formally scrutineered, passes, then suffers a mechanical failure causing injury or worse, there's the risk a scrutineer could be hauled through the mud during an inquest or some such proccedure. Who the fuck would volunteer for that job? Far easier to make each competitor sign that by competing, their machine is therefore prepared in a safe fashion for the task at hand.

[ktm84mxc]

Opps not to offend you scott but I asked the question based on my experience's, Did I say all tracks don't noise test ? Do you test noise bikes with a meter or by ear ?
I have never put Ardmore up as a bastion of compliance in regards to safety we can all look back & say we cud have done it better.
With 30yrs off roading I've gained a little knowledge about how things work or don't.
This is a FORUM which implies a discussion of differing views on a given topic if we all agreed we wouldn't be on here.

[Voltaire]

I used to do some of the MR rides with my son until I injured my back at work installing heatpumps ( self employed) and ACC said it was age related.....odd seeing the Chiropractor I go to has sorted it out....after wasting my time at Physio.:yes:
I also do skiing and we all wear helmets although they are optional, and I feel safer skiing than riding on the road.
I don't have a problem with " User Pays" but I do have a problem paying for the same thing multiple times. Whats next an ACC card where you tick all the activities you do and they charge accordingly?
I lived in Ireland for a couple of years and you pay insurance when the kids go on school trips...and they closed the skating rink down due to high insurance costs...
:facepalm:

[ktm84mxc]

On scrutineering a bike I understand the view you cud be held liable if the bike fails causing injury to the rider. If you informed the rider of its faults & still let it compete with the resulting incident injuring/damaging a 3rd party wud you still be liable?
The same cud apply to Off road tracks eg is that tree to close to the track, blind brow/jump, how deep is the river/swamp.
Imagine a safety audit on a trail ride loop of 50+ km's.

[scott411]

On scrutineering a bike I understand the view you cud be held liable if the bike fails causing injury to the rider. If you informed the rider of its faults & still let it compete with the resulting incident injuring/damaging a 3rd party wud you still be liable?
The same cud apply to Off road tracks eg is that tree to close to the track, blind brow/jump, how deep is the river/swamp.
Imagine a safety audit on a trail ride loop of 50+ km's.


you will find although we do not do the list like some sectors do, a saftey audit should be part of every track markers thoughts, the term the department of labour uses is something that you would not expect to be there, a tree you can see is something you expect, a fallen tree hidden over a brow is something that should be marked,

duty of care is another interesting item, and there is big difference between a club run event, and a promotor run event, now there is a lot of mixing of this dymanic in our sport,

[MSTRS]

Not sure if this is right, or not, but I heard a different side to this saga today.
There could be a chicken/egg thing going on...in that MNZ got wind of mutterings ex ACC re imposing levies on trail ride participants. This is now happening in Oz. In an effort to 'control' the amount/outcome of any such levy imposition MNZ have now involved themselves in the process.
So are MNZ really just trying in increase their income, or do they have rider's best interests at heart?

[krad_nz]

Unfortunately with the lack of transparency the only position is to assume the worst.

[Jay GTI]

Exactly. If they are trying to look after the greater dirt biking community (members of MNZ or otherwise), why would they not be able to tell us?

Paul Searancke has already said they have provided ACC information about the reduction of injuries with MNZ events, so they are in communications with them, why not involve everyone they can to further their efforts?

This all well may be innocent and MNZ may be fighting our corner, but without any clarity from MNZ, I can only say it smells real bad from where I'm sat.

[cheese]

HAHAHAHA ..... good chick! :facepalm: No worries though

I have done less damage (ACC wise) to myself with trail riding than the years of BMX and Netball.

Please others do write and maybe someone might listen. Better to be vocal than complain in silence!

Does anyone from NZDB know what options we as a collective can do?

This is a really good point. I injured myself a hell of a lot more playing indoor netball and riding a mountain bike than I ever have on my dirt bike.

I bet that if you took a look at the stats of Woodhill mountain bike park versus the Sandpit I'd say you have twice as many injuries at the mountain bike park. Or compared northshore social sports teams like soccer and rugby to northshore dirt bike events you'd get a fucking interesting statistic too.

ACC and MNZ are just taking shots at what they thing is an easy target.

[budda]

repeat after me : The SKY IS FALLING, The SKY IS FALLING .......

[browny]

the trail rides down south are already $40/ $50 so good times ahead.bloody scrounging wankers.

[buffstar]

The sky is falling ........ The Pigs are flying ........... THEY are doing it for US ..... :killingme

[oldguy]

ACC and MNZ are just taking shots at what they thing is an easy target.

It happened with us road riders. well more so ACC

[mazz1972]

I see soapboxes must have been half price at the Parakai Superette this week Tony.:yes:

There is an interesting article in this months KiwiRider where MNZ's Paul Searnacke explains what he wants to achieve regarding "Recreational Off-Road Riding", doesn't seem too scary to me.

Is this in the July issue?

[takitimu]

Is this in the July issue?

yep, page 85

[telliman]

This is a really good point. I injured myself a hell of a lot more playing indoor netball and riding a mountain bike than I ever have on my dirt bike.

I bet that if you took a look at the stats of Woodhill mountain bike park versus the Sandpit I'd say you have twice as many injuries at the mountain bike park. Or compared northshore social sports teams like soccer and rugby to northshore dirt bike events you'd get a fucking interesting statistic too.

ACC and MNZ are just taking shots at what they thing is an easy target.


haha, netball, hahahahaarotflmao

[cheese]

haha, netball, hahahahaarotflmao

You played more than I did!

[telliman]

haha, is that where you met wellyman??